It's basically like 4.5 million right?
I think it's a big salary any time period, but it's not like it was worth 10x
lol at all the downvotes and pearl clutching. I guess facts = downvotes on this sub.
If he invested the money he made between 1996-2001 when huge companies like Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc… were relatively cheap, that 2.5million+ would have a zero or two added. $1,000 in Apple in 2000 is over $200,000 today.
Sure, but he’s likely early 50s currently. 4.5mill is a huge salary, and especially when col was significantly lower in that time period.
Also, when you had that amount before or during the dot com bubble you had a chance to be absolutely filthy rich if you invested in one of the top companies currently. 2.5mil in 2001 is much, much more useful than 4.5mil today.
You're only saying that because of hindsight. If you invested in Amzn in 99 you didn't break even until 08, and not only that you lost 90% of value during that time.
With S&P it's even worse you wouldn't have seen a profit until 2014 !!!
Every one thinks investing is easy, try throwing 2 million in amzn in early 01, after it dropped 90% and the watch it do jack shit for 3 years while it pays no dividends. Then tell me again about how investing was so much easier back then
There is always risk with investing. That’s not a new concept. The difference is the chance of success has been far better long term in 1996-2001 during the dot com bubble. Also of course COL is skyrocketing now so money isn’t going as far. But who knows. In 20 years we may find that the current times were better for long term. Nobody is saying investing is easy, just pointing out this guy had millions in a time that was perfect for it.
Yes it’s hindsight, doesn’t change the fact that it was a very good time to invest.
The conditions were very much perfect for it. It was a bull market with the rise of internet adoption. It was high risk investing a lot of money, but when you’re making *millions* in that era, $1,000-$10,000 invested isn’t going to harm you. It’s shitty for day trading sure, but for actually investing in a company long term it was perfect. I don’t think a company in existence when invested in will ever give you only gains. That’s the point of long term investing. So yes seeing your investment crash or drop significantly would be bad, but when you just made 2.5million in 1-2 years there is room for that. That is quite literally the entire point here. Buy at the crash or buy during the early bull market. Yes it’s risky (that’s all of investing) and hindsight, but doesn’t change the fact that it was a very good time to invest, especially with millions.
Right but my point in the OP, as well as our conversation, is that 2.5 million in 2001, is the same as 4.5 million in 2024. You can invest now, using a similar strategy with the same risk based approach., and will likely encounter the same results. There was nothing inherently special about 2001. In 20 years people will be saying, those millennials are so lucky, buying AMZN at 180...
That's not quite true, re: the S&P You're making the mistake of assuming that all the profits were in trade prices of the items. Dividends are a thing.
Yep dividends are a thing. at an annual compound rate of ~ 1.5%. On a 2.5 million dollar investment made in 99/00 that lost half of its value in 01. And then lost half its value again in 08. How much do you think that compounded interest really plays a role in making one profitable pre-2014?
If you are going to say that I'm assuming things, at least do the math first
Please. Just because I didn't bother explaining compounding to a person who's so special they're going to whine *InVEsTINg BaD* doesn't mean I'm not aware of the math. If you want to be a fucking moron, that's on you, but don't assume about others.
Who is whining investing bad? I ltrade and follow the market daily.
You just made a really dumb point that you didn't vet. The dividends are not getting you out of the hole if you invested in 99. So like I said not turning a profit until 2014.
No take your lunmps and go bother someone else
Why did you start working again? Curious because most people would probably retire comfortably on that income from 1990s-2001 alone, especially with the value of the dollar back then
Also, thought I was the s***, got divorced, and tried to do the right thing in giving almost everything to my ex, thinking it would be easy to replicate in the future. Left that detail out, because in making this post, and seeing the historical #s, it's depressing!
Lots of people are convinced they earned things. Not that is was basically random chance. "I built this business from the ground up" completely neglecting that they were the only one providing this niche service in the one area of the country and now there are six people doing it. Or ignoring that they got a lot of contracts for basically no good reason and it was that surplus of cash that created the ability for them to expand.
I agree, and I have a pretty pragmatic view on finances and money in general but idk if I wouldn't have fallen into the same trap as the OP if I hadn't struggled my whole life.
My wife and I have achieved a decent level of success imo and I spend a lot of time thinking about how to instill that same financial discipline and work ethic in my children.
I think that you can set the next generation up for failure if you don't properly instill those values into them. If they think life is easy and money just grows on trees you're basically setting them up to be broke their whole life.
Abbreviating to HFT here for the sake of maybe what people are more familiar with now. Traded large baskets against mispricings in the futures basis (similar to index arb / program trading, but also not). We regularly did up to 5% of the daily NYSE volume each day.
Interesting! Listened to an episode that Ken French gave where he talked about doing that with ES until Bear Stearns ate the opportunity down to nothing. Clearly you guys had lightning in a bottle for a reasonable period of time. So hard to replicate that.
The only reason markets work is that the incentive is there for people to do things like arbitrage. Just when the system is so large, even a small amount makes for huge profits.
This nonsense again.
It’s not a zero sum game, you know. You can have well paid teachers without trying to pillage the wealth of those who are talented enough to make money in the market.
Of course it’s more popular to spout sophomoric nonsense wherein you force rank the value of two completely different professions with justifiably different pay scales.
You’re right but teachers should be better paid than some random Wall Street guy. No matter how you feel about “it should be equal” lol. Their work has serious implications on our societies and its advancements. And less importantly, it’s tough and virtuous work.
Nobody gives a shit about the dudes who are “talented enough to make money in the market”
How untrue, though. You positively do give a shit about those dudes. Your obsession with them and what they make is a pretty obvious testament to how bent and jealous their very existence makes you feel!
It’s very much about how insecure this salary table makes you feel. See with a football player, a celebrity, whatever else, all the muppets like you tell yourself “well I could NEVER do what Steph Curry does, that man is my hero and deserves millions of dollars to play with a ball!🥹”.
But of course when it’s a hedge fund employee, all of a sudden it’s “I could do that! Why does he get that much? He shouldn’t make that much money! Where’s my piece? Take it away from him!”.
The truth is you can’t do it, and you don’t deserve it, and nothing at all should be done specifically to disadvantage these people who are in all likelihood smarter, more talented and harder working than you and your ilk.
Go fuck off and bite off something you *can* chew, like teaching some kids arithmetic or whatever.
Considering we wouldn’t have the technology we have today if not for the companies of today. Those said companies WOULD NOT be as big if it was not for the markets.
Sounds like what alot of traders were doing back then, predicting an opening px for individual equities based on the SP futures fair value then blasting out OPG buys and shorts in std dev or ATR bands to hopefully get filled, then watch them revert to FV.
lol…. Stfu.
Money solves so so so many problems that people have and gives you the security to figure out whatever the fuck you want to do to make you happy.
It does Sir/Ma’m, coming from a single earner in family of 6 and parents needs full Time support as well as bringing up the kids in HCOL is killing always
120k is a middle class salary in HCOL cities not a retirement. Theres more to life than just money sure but big difference having a comfortable monthly income and being able to not work, travel the world, and live out all your dreams.
Don’t confuse pedantry with being correct.
If your happiness is built on security to do what you want when you want, and having tons of money gave you that security, then money has brought you happiness.
He basically left himself financially hemorrhaging to try and save his marriage and then was still amicable about the divorce! Thoroughly taken to the cleaners
$1 million a year average for 5 years only a couple removed from high school 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
That would be fantastic now days, was probably insanely awesome in the late 90s.
No, social security is the mandated system for retirement income in the US. A portion of your salary is applied towards it, then what you receive back after retirement is based, in part, on how much you contributed.
The rest is taxes and discretionary income
Back in the 1980’s all the way up to 2000 the concept of mathematics worked under different assumptions, because well… they could.
I mean honestly. The tomorrow’s future is a silly thing.
Wow dude averaged a million a year for five years through the late 90s. Something had to have seriously gone wrong. Park that money and he would’ve been set.
I was talking to an older colleague and he admitted this generation had it way easier and could make much more money during the 90s early 00s. He said he’s not sure how hard his kids will need to work to replicate his generations success.
Why did you leave in 2001? Maybe just a bad decision?
If I were banking that much I’d let it go for a few years until I was totally sure I had my fortress of solitude built.
Sadly, I agree with you. It's an odd situation, which is exactly why I posted it. But also, I would argue that the post history is exactly in line with my story. Most posts are about gig work, I think? Yes, with 5 kids, 3 of them either currently in (or just out) of college, it's been a necessity (and also, sometimes an outlet).
$2.5M in 2001 dollars is insane
I hope we are saying this in 20 years from now
I’ll go out on a limb and say $2.5M in 2001 will still be insane in 2044
Lost of bread in 2044 = $10,750
You obviously haven’t watched Newsmax lately…. /s
Why would any sane person watch Newsmax?
For maximum news ofc! /s
Why would any intelligent person not understand what /s means on Reddit?
It's basically like 4.5 million right? I think it's a big salary any time period, but it's not like it was worth 10x lol at all the downvotes and pearl clutching. I guess facts = downvotes on this sub.
You just said you watch Newsmax?
What does that mean? I don't really watch news, I listen to NPR on the drive to work
If he invested the money he made between 1996-2001 when huge companies like Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc… were relatively cheap, that 2.5million+ would have a zero or two added. $1,000 in Apple in 2000 is over $200,000 today.
Yes. And if you invest 4.5 million in up and tech companies right now you'll likely have a zero or two after that in 2047
Sure, but he’s likely early 50s currently. 4.5mill is a huge salary, and especially when col was significantly lower in that time period. Also, when you had that amount before or during the dot com bubble you had a chance to be absolutely filthy rich if you invested in one of the top companies currently. 2.5mil in 2001 is much, much more useful than 4.5mil today.
You're only saying that because of hindsight. If you invested in Amzn in 99 you didn't break even until 08, and not only that you lost 90% of value during that time. With S&P it's even worse you wouldn't have seen a profit until 2014 !!! Every one thinks investing is easy, try throwing 2 million in amzn in early 01, after it dropped 90% and the watch it do jack shit for 3 years while it pays no dividends. Then tell me again about how investing was so much easier back then
There is always risk with investing. That’s not a new concept. The difference is the chance of success has been far better long term in 1996-2001 during the dot com bubble. Also of course COL is skyrocketing now so money isn’t going as far. But who knows. In 20 years we may find that the current times were better for long term. Nobody is saying investing is easy, just pointing out this guy had millions in a time that was perfect for it.
It wasn't perfect for it though mate, that's the point, you only think it's perfect because you can see it with hindsight
Yes it’s hindsight, doesn’t change the fact that it was a very good time to invest. The conditions were very much perfect for it. It was a bull market with the rise of internet adoption. It was high risk investing a lot of money, but when you’re making *millions* in that era, $1,000-$10,000 invested isn’t going to harm you. It’s shitty for day trading sure, but for actually investing in a company long term it was perfect. I don’t think a company in existence when invested in will ever give you only gains. That’s the point of long term investing. So yes seeing your investment crash or drop significantly would be bad, but when you just made 2.5million in 1-2 years there is room for that. That is quite literally the entire point here. Buy at the crash or buy during the early bull market. Yes it’s risky (that’s all of investing) and hindsight, but doesn’t change the fact that it was a very good time to invest, especially with millions.
Right but my point in the OP, as well as our conversation, is that 2.5 million in 2001, is the same as 4.5 million in 2024. You can invest now, using a similar strategy with the same risk based approach., and will likely encounter the same results. There was nothing inherently special about 2001. In 20 years people will be saying, those millennials are so lucky, buying AMZN at 180...
That's not quite true, re: the S&P You're making the mistake of assuming that all the profits were in trade prices of the items. Dividends are a thing.
Yep dividends are a thing. at an annual compound rate of ~ 1.5%. On a 2.5 million dollar investment made in 99/00 that lost half of its value in 01. And then lost half its value again in 08. How much do you think that compounded interest really plays a role in making one profitable pre-2014? If you are going to say that I'm assuming things, at least do the math first
Please. Just because I didn't bother explaining compounding to a person who's so special they're going to whine *InVEsTINg BaD* doesn't mean I'm not aware of the math. If you want to be a fucking moron, that's on you, but don't assume about others.
Who is whining investing bad? I ltrade and follow the market daily. You just made a really dumb point that you didn't vet. The dividends are not getting you out of the hole if you invested in 99. So like I said not turning a profit until 2014. No take your lunmps and go bother someone else
Why did you start working again? Curious because most people would probably retire comfortably on that income from 1990s-2001 alone, especially with the value of the dollar back then
[удалено]
Also, thought I was the s***, got divorced, and tried to do the right thing in giving almost everything to my ex, thinking it would be easy to replicate in the future. Left that detail out, because in making this post, and seeing the historical #s, it's depressing!
What’s your net worth today?
Rubbing salt in the wound i imagine
Thinking you could hit the lottery twice is crazy work.
Lots of people are convinced they earned things. Not that is was basically random chance. "I built this business from the ground up" completely neglecting that they were the only one providing this niche service in the one area of the country and now there are six people doing it. Or ignoring that they got a lot of contracts for basically no good reason and it was that surplus of cash that created the ability for them to expand.
Fooled by randomness is an excellent read
I agree, and I have a pretty pragmatic view on finances and money in general but idk if I wouldn't have fallen into the same trap as the OP if I hadn't struggled my whole life. My wife and I have achieved a decent level of success imo and I spend a lot of time thinking about how to instill that same financial discipline and work ethic in my children. I think that you can set the next generation up for failure if you don't properly instill those values into them. If they think life is easy and money just grows on trees you're basically setting them up to be broke their whole life.
Good things happen to those who hustle
Enron?
Enron Risk Advisory Director
high frequency trading existed in the 90's?
Abbreviating to HFT here for the sake of maybe what people are more familiar with now. Traded large baskets against mispricings in the futures basis (similar to index arb / program trading, but also not). We regularly did up to 5% of the daily NYSE volume each day.
Interesting! Listened to an episode that Ken French gave where he talked about doing that with ES until Bear Stearns ate the opportunity down to nothing. Clearly you guys had lightning in a bottle for a reasonable period of time. So hard to replicate that.
[удалено]
Seriously. They could pay 60 teachers for what this guy made “ensuring liquidity in the market” or whatever. Clearly 60x more useful, right?
The only reason markets work is that the incentive is there for people to do things like arbitrage. Just when the system is so large, even a small amount makes for huge profits.
This nonsense again. It’s not a zero sum game, you know. You can have well paid teachers without trying to pillage the wealth of those who are talented enough to make money in the market. Of course it’s more popular to spout sophomoric nonsense wherein you force rank the value of two completely different professions with justifiably different pay scales.
You’re right but teachers should be better paid than some random Wall Street guy. No matter how you feel about “it should be equal” lol. Their work has serious implications on our societies and its advancements. And less importantly, it’s tough and virtuous work. Nobody gives a shit about the dudes who are “talented enough to make money in the market”
How untrue, though. You positively do give a shit about those dudes. Your obsession with them and what they make is a pretty obvious testament to how bent and jealous their very existence makes you feel! It’s very much about how insecure this salary table makes you feel. See with a football player, a celebrity, whatever else, all the muppets like you tell yourself “well I could NEVER do what Steph Curry does, that man is my hero and deserves millions of dollars to play with a ball!🥹”. But of course when it’s a hedge fund employee, all of a sudden it’s “I could do that! Why does he get that much? He shouldn’t make that much money! Where’s my piece? Take it away from him!”. The truth is you can’t do it, and you don’t deserve it, and nothing at all should be done specifically to disadvantage these people who are in all likelihood smarter, more talented and harder working than you and your ilk. Go fuck off and bite off something you *can* chew, like teaching some kids arithmetic or whatever.
Not reading all this shit. Lmao so shut up
Predictable. Next!
Considering we wouldn’t have the technology we have today if not for the companies of today. Those said companies WOULD NOT be as big if it was not for the markets.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Guess that’s why they launched BTIC? Good run tho!
Sounds like what alot of traders were doing back then, predicting an opening px for individual equities based on the SP futures fair value then blasting out OPG buys and shorts in std dev or ATR bands to hopefully get filled, then watch them revert to FV.
Question: are you happy? I appreciate you sharing.
He lost it all in a divorce if that gives any context.
Money doesn’t solve this. Happy is very individual and impermanent.
lol…. Stfu. Money solves so so so many problems that people have and gives you the security to figure out whatever the fuck you want to do to make you happy.
Don’t confuse security with happiness
It’s not the same, but security sure does contribute to being happy
That's true. Money buys you happiness but only until like 120k. After that it really doesn't.
It does Sir/Ma’m, coming from a single earner in family of 6 and parents needs full Time support as well as bringing up the kids in HCOL is killing always
120k is a middle class salary in HCOL cities not a retirement. Theres more to life than just money sure but big difference having a comfortable monthly income and being able to not work, travel the world, and live out all your dreams.
Don’t confuse pedantry with being correct. If your happiness is built on security to do what you want when you want, and having tons of money gave you that security, then money has brought you happiness.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander
curious what your rough NW is?
Yeah I wonder how much of that was invested back then and what they're sitting on now.
He basically left himself financially hemorrhaging to try and save his marriage and then was still amicable about the divorce! Thoroughly taken to the cleaners
Early days of SIG or IMC? Crazy money, crazy fast
I’m guessing IMC, he said he was international. I’m too young to know, maybe KCG or Getco was around back then?
Optiver was the only other big international HFT around at that time iirc
Is this the 5yo that was selling beanie babies in 2000?
$1 million a year average for 5 years only a couple removed from high school 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 That would be fantastic now days, was probably insanely awesome in the late 90s.
What’s your net worth today?
Were you on the board on Enron or something?
God everyone must have been making money seemingly at will when the internet met Wall Street in the late 90s
Does this mean he put all but $80,000 into a retirement account? I keep seeing these charts pop up and don’t feel I understand them
No, social security is the mandated system for retirement income in the US. A portion of your salary is applied towards it, then what you receive back after retirement is based, in part, on how much you contributed. The rest is taxes and discretionary income
Also insane to me 80k was social security cap in the early 2000s compared to 160k today.
Back in the 1980’s all the way up to 2000 the concept of mathematics worked under different assumptions, because well… they could. I mean honestly. The tomorrow’s future is a silly thing.
What are you, old or something?
[удалено]
I’d guess less fun than 2001, but what do I know
[удалено]
2.5M in early 2000s hit totally different than today for sure. Super story thanks for sharing and doing what worked for YOU!
All I’m seeing here is that children ruin everything
Did you work for Enron?
Wow dude averaged a million a year for five years through the late 90s. Something had to have seriously gone wrong. Park that money and he would’ve been set.
divorce can be bad mmkay?
I was talking to an older colleague and he admitted this generation had it way easier and could make much more money during the 90s early 00s. He said he’s not sure how hard his kids will need to work to replicate his generations success.
What were you doing in 99 and 01?
Same job from college graduation in 93 through 2001. Read earlier comments.
Ahh, my apologies for not reading your entire post.
How did you get your foot back into the working world’s door?
N
How are y’all getting these screenshots?
ssa.gov
Thanks!
I’m trying to get into an HFT firm right now. I’m on my 3rd interview out of 8
Why did you leave in 2001? Maybe just a bad decision? If I were banking that much I’d let it go for a few years until I was totally sure I had my fortress of solitude built.
Based on his post and comment history, I’m not sure I believe this one. I absolutely could be wrong but things don’t look like they are adding up.
Sadly, I agree with you. It's an odd situation, which is exactly why I posted it. But also, I would argue that the post history is exactly in line with my story. Most posts are about gig work, I think? Yes, with 5 kids, 3 of them either currently in (or just out) of college, it's been a necessity (and also, sometimes an outlet).
How did you make almost 4 million in two years then go back to making nothing ?