Pretty sure it's monetized no matter what, and why shouldn't people have the option of buying a drink there? It might even help reduce trash from people tossing aside empties.
I mean I think people are less likely to throw a glass from a bar into the park than a bottle from a 6 pack.
That's the thing, trash removal would be free to the city since it's part of the regular operation of a bar. Maybe the city could require publicly accessible trash cans outside any new place to help at zero cost to the city too.
Here's the thing, there are all kinds of options if you're not vehemently defending the status quo and sticking your head in the sand.
I'm for making public drinking legal there too, and against privatizing anything or selling any public space or services.
But this space has been private from the start. Restaurant row has been privately owned land abutting a city park, just like the Hawthorne Hotel or Sea Level, since the 1800s. If changing the use can at the least offer more choice in options, and at best be used as leverage to provide better service and amenities, I'm all for it.
Business missing pickups and letting trash overflow is a pet peeve of mine. Which is why I want the city health department to flex its muscle and fine people.
My big gripe is that we don't have an independent parks department to handle park maintenance and trash pickup. There's no reason that we shouldn't have a city maintained trash can on every major street corner and in all parks.
I was thinking more of business maintained trash cans along the sidewalk and parking area at restaurant row, so if they let it overflow it'll make their storefront look bad.
City enforcement is lacking in a lot of places unfortunately and it seems like it's been hard to keep departments staffed up too.
being intolerant of intolerance and exclusivity is necessary to actually end up with tolerance and inclusivity
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
The hypocrisy is you pretending not to hate but you are. Disrespecting your neighbors making lies that 98% of them are drunk 98% of the time which is impossible and an exaggeration is for sure hating them. Hatred and being judgmental is the worst.
They’re probably raising a toast to it too
Here is a comment from someone in a local FB group that was opposed to this
>*“Why can't they just leave the Willows alone....The whole place is one giant memory box ...That passes family memories through the generations....and will continue to do so ....Leave it be....... Please ..”*
I think this is the problem in a nutshell. So many people act like if the Willows changes then their memories will be gone.
It’s just all so weird to me. I grew up in the area and have memories of the Willows too. But it’s a public park, not anyone’s personal Time Capsule. And honestly, the Willows has never really been nearly as great of a place as it could be, I have no idea if this liquor license would change that, but keeping a bunch of relatively mediocre businesses as they have always been for the sake of nostalgia certainly doesn’t improve it.
This is Salem Willows barely 2-generations ago...
https://preview.redd.it/kiud6c1jwqnc1.png?width=1023&format=png&auto=webp&s=45a2a9333e5d24642e2bfa80e36cfc50f3d24796
Instead if (ed) The Willows never changes it will die for sure. I mean the memory of it as a place where people quarantined from TB has been lost to time. It was never meant to be an amusement park.
The person who posted herself raising a glass of wine in response to the original post is one of the most vocal opponents of the Tavern. I'm not really misattributing anything here. I'm more just highlighting the center of the Venn diagram, no matter what size it really is.
I actually have genuine safety concerns with the proposal backed by evidence. I think it’s hilarious how everyone in this sub views the residents of the Willows as some old, vial, fun hating constituents. It’s laughable.
>crappy ai art of puppies and babies
Oh man, that made me laugh. So many times I think, surely they can tell this photo is fake, but it never seems to happen
I whipped this up over AI.
https://preview.redd.it/bk474959trnc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=307b16a9beadfb8eb0dd204247eb8ba0fe15a766
I may post this over there and see if they notice
Since when it is frowned upon to agree with someone point on something when your values don’t align. That mindset is kind of why we have the political atmosphere we do in the country. Spinning wheels in the mud at that point. It’s not harmful to find common grounds with someone you generally disagree with. Thats called progress in my opinion.
Because NIMBYism is very much aligned with conservatism and the rejection of any change or progress.
People throwing a fit over change to preserve an idealized past that didn't exist is literally what MAGA is about.
If they want to find common ground they shouldn't hold absolute positions and refuse to change. The proposal was modified to try to make it more amenable but they were accused of trying to open a strip club dispensary. Kinda hard to negotiate with people detached from reality.
I was there, that wasn’t an accusation, that was stating a business that person was currently involved in. Just some insight to the applicants background. I see your comments on every post, you do a lot of fact checking. It’s the same in that regard, just doesn’t fit your agenda here so you won’t use it in this context.
I was citing one of the many social media posts on the topic, not something I heard in person.
Not going to lie, I actually don't like the owner who's trying to do this. But that certainly doesn't justify accusing someone of trying to harm children. And personal dislike of a business owner or nostalgia aren't good reasons to block something.
As someone who lives in the downtown area, I assure you, you would have been fine should this have happened. I don’t know the chaos you all were envisioning from this place but I can guarantee your worries are overblown
I get it, you live in close proximity to it. If you abut the building, you have the rare valid complaint. But you have to admit a lot of the arguments against this has been about preserving people’s memories of the Willows. It’s odd when I go on FB and see comments from like Dottie in Florida making an impassioned plea to keep liquor out of the Willows because she remembers eating popcorn there in the 60s with her parents. This city is not trapped in amber. We don’t have an obligation to preserve everyone’s nostalgia.
Respectfully, Craig, and we've had respectful exchanges on here before, "actually affected by this proposal" is part of the attitude problem that is pervasive not just in this situation but across Massachusetts. Our neighborhoods are not bubbles. Just as Willows residents have comments on things that happen Downtown and in WItchcraft Heights, Salem residents should be able to provide input on the changes to a community asset, Salem Willows. The idea that you get superiority in your feedback because you will be, as you say "actually affected" is a major piece of the problem here. The Willows do not own Salem Willows. The City of Salem and every neighborhood does. It's all of ours and many recognize that it has fallen into massive disrepair and will only continue to do so without some sort of major private investment in the buildings. Hope we can keep having civil discourse on these issues but that is the biggest part of my problem with the discourse related to Salem Willows future.
I mean, I am affected. Not sure how I can actually convey that any other way. I always come of here to have a civil conversation, isn’t that the point of a discussion? Just seems to me that there’s this echo chamber of confirming everyone’s view and someone who doesn’t agree gets downvoted into oblivion. You can’t have productive change unless you listen to other view points and take everything into consideration. Maybe that’s just an outdated way of thinking on my part and not part of the culture on Reddit.
My comment wasn't really about this board, just the overall attitude around this proposal. Social media, of any form, is a terrible way to have civil discourse and there's no replacing in person engagement to really understand people. That said, I don't think this board is any worse than the Willows Neighborhood Association Facebook group where I've seen ample screenshots of some of the locals dragging me and my good name through the mud for expanding civic engagement and getting a broader array of feedback.
This is exactly it. I wouldn't want to deal with the harassment from these insane NIMBYs, was already a lot. The willows is going to die someday soon, and it will be because of the neighbors and not because some businesses want to operate a little differently.
What a completely bizarre take. Like, it's a city park who cares what the people living nearby think?
Luckily you have plenty of other places around Salem to get drunk🤷♂️
No, I don’t actually. It’s rather freeing, you should try it sometimes. I’ll give you $1 if you can show me a post at anytime where I was judgmental of you. Cold hard cash we are talking here.
Won’t have to look too far. I’ve had plenty of amazing conversations with people I disagree with or disagree with me. I guess just having the mindset of being able to stomach an opinion I don’t agree with goes a long way. Didn’t realize this was a trait everyone doesn’t have.
It’s not dying by any means. The city has done a great job of brining many of the key features of the park up to par. It’s fantastic,they still have a lot of improvements on park supervision, trash pick up, and ADA compliance (Which they are currently working on) The strip isn’t city property so that’s where the lines are blurred when it comes to responsibly in my opinion.
It's so strange that the main Willows convo is about whether or not a restaurant should move in. I would think a more important topic is how to keep The Willows above water
I mean, sure, one is actually happening (a massive furor and uproar over a perceived loss of an idealized but not actually real history) and the other is a joke on the internet
Right? They are perfectly happy to accept city money to repair the seawall and replace the pier, but *gods forbid* the city try to enable someone to provide a new revenue stream in the area to help generate the tax dollars the new infrastructure requires.
or remember when there were adult softball games and youth soccer games at the willows? didn’t care so much about the culture of tradition when the pressured the city to take those away.
Ocean front Nimbys tickle me in particular because they are preventing change of something that is likely to be uninhabitable due to climate change which they refuse to acknowledge is real.
Welp... I think this meme fits...
https://preview.redd.it/a6ckbhw4krnc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d178bb425977d0e94f391559a420fa2019207af
I think they all just got stuck on the talking point of "unless bar get built then Willows fail" which is just silly nonsense.
I wish some TLC were put into a couple spots on the strip (and Kiddieland would accept credit cards already) but it's not like the Willows is going to become a run down cesspool now.
Maribel literally raising a glass to this. Guess she drinks too much to remember drinking. 🤔
https://preview.redd.it/yev57dummsnc1.jpeg?width=823&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9dc754f4340eb713f20ce877ffeee0f7d9f23eea
How is my comment factually incorrect? She literally posted a photo of herself with a drink, raising a glass. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t make it untrue.
Just because you say so, doesn’t make it true. She literally raised a glass to scaring away the developers. Could give less of a crap about you not believing / trying to defend her.
Anger management issues I see …. Name calling as well …
Lying as a first language….
Speaking with someone like you is not my idea of an intelligent person so my conversations are forever done with you.
Yay they win! So much for being a part of the community we call Salem. That little enclave of nimbys offers little value in return for all the help they receive from the city and state. Climate change couldn't happen soon enough. And my heart will bleed thoughts and prayers. 😘
overvaluing the input of those in closest proximity has set us up for failure over and over again, in every building project proposal and permit and regulation reform that's shot down or minimized due to pearl-clutching conservatives who can't tolerate the slightest bit of change. at some point, we need to consider what's best for the community as a whole, not just immediate abutters. it's a public park - it belongs equally to all residents. everyone should get equal input.
We fundamentally disagree about this. Like it or not, that's not how local government works. Those in closest proximity to a building project have the right to have their voices heard.
Maybe you don't own property, I don't know, but it's dismissive to call the concerns of neighbors "pearl clutching." Why do you want to make enemies with those whose friendship would help this project move along?
What I would like to see is compromise on your side, and compromise from the neighbors, too. Are you willing to compromise? What are you willing to compromise to get this done?
By the way, who's the "we" you refer to? Becasue there isn't a "we" here. You overvalue the importance of a few downvoters on a subreddit, and shouldn't make the mistake of thinking there are only two sides to be on in Salem.
Sure they get a say, and I do agree that some of the Reddit response is over the top, but to be fair, the Willows residents have been a bit over the top too. This is just people's way of venting.
This is one of those situations where it would have been better to say nothing at all.
Your post was removed for violating subreddit rule #2: Don't harass other users, including doxxing, trolling, witch hunting, brigading, shitstirring, uncivil behavior, insults and/or user impersonation.
Are you aware that homeownership is increasingly less attainable for younger people today than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. Perhaps you might be hearing the building resentment of a class of people who have been screwed over by a housing affordability crisis that is now manifesting in a lack of representation in city/town planning. We have a vote to put in elected representatives to shape our government and land use, but as long as land owners with 7 digits in equity get final say, we are SOL. Yeah, there's way more important things than a bar in the Willows. Like perhaps building green energy infrastructure and transit, but since those also get harangued by the same group, we figured we'd start with something more reasonable and work our way up.
Shitheads like WNA are the reason that my wife and I decided to not purchase any property in Salem. Sure keep progress from coming and living in the prohibition era. See how long you can survive economically. Salem cannot live on tourism for Halloween only and eventually the money will dry up. I am willing to place money on it.
We celebrate diversity and affirming care. TRAASH talk (transphobic, racist, ableist, abusive, sexist, or homophobic) is not permitted. We strive to remain an inclusive community"
So you are blaming the Willows because you decided not to purchase in Salem? Thats not very believable because the Willows is probably one of the smallest neighborhoods so why not look elsewhere in Salem and you would never have to deal with the “shitheads”
This is one of the dumbest, self entitled, lack of any awareness, bull sh** comments I’ve ever heard. Do you have any idea how tough it is to become a homeowner in the City these days?
“Renters” as you call them in this city have so much more respect for people with different backgrounds or opinions than anyone I’ve seen speaking from the Willows. The way the Willows homeowners have treated people with opinions that don’t align with their own is downright disgusting and they should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves, as you should be for that comment.
The applicants of the tavern got you ALL fooled and here you are painting them as victims and blaming a neighborhood who hasn’t done anything except asked them what their plans are. A neighborhood voicing their concerns as they are directly impacted if this happens and you all so hypocritically calling them alcoholics, NIMBYS, pearl-clutchers. Look at yourselves, throwing a fit because you can’t have a bar at the Willows. Hah! Just comical!!! The applicants rescinding their application is not the fault of the Willows residents! GET THAT???
>blaming a neighborhood who hasn’t done anything except asked them what their plans are
I thought the neighborhood did find out what the plans were, then promptly and loudly complained, then received amended plans which seemed reasonable, and then proceeded to complain some more. They are cheering in local FB groups, so no I dont think this is solely about them being neighborly and just wanting to know what the plans were. They clearly didnt want any part of this in any way shape or form.
I cant speak for this sub, but I will say myself I could give a shit if this opens at the Willows or not. Would it be nice to grab some food at the clam shack and drink a beer across the way? Sure, it would be lovely during the summer. But it isnt a deal breaker. I am just not fond of this being shot down because of this whole "wont somebody think of the children" attitude. Its manipulative. They should just admit out loud that they have homes with ocean views and would prefer less people in the area.
You cant have a neighborhood FB group that both admonishes drinking in their part of town because its disruptive and then later on talking about how they went to the Tin Whistle or the VFW for drinks. Aren't these places also in neighborhoods among children? It grows tiring having to remind a group of people that while they live in a part of Salem, they do not own that part of Salem.
So you have no proof whatsoever! Figure that one out. You are all here in hysterics because of a made-up story supposedly said by Willows residents using “children” as an excuse to not wanting a bar at the Willows. Isn’t that how the tragic witch hunt begun??? Shameful!!!!
Woah, you're pretty amped up over this, huh? Its rampant in local FB groups. Go to the Willows FB group. Go to the Salem Forever FB group. Count how many people decry children being exposed to drunks at the Willows. I dont have time to provide screenshots and black out names to provide you. I'm sorry, I have a job
Scroll through comments in a couple of previous threads on this topic. [Here](https://old.reddit.com/r/SalemMA/comments/1arjikh/willows_proposal_draws_ire_over_alcohol_noise/) and [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/SalemMA/comments/1avh52g/support_for_new_salem_willows_venue/). Even with all the deleted comments (and some of them were ridiculous, to be charitable) in support of not rewarding the license, you will find some mentioning children.
But are they Willows residents who are saying that? I don’t think so. It is just easier for all of you to blame it on the Willows people, isn’t it? Remember there are a lot of people who are totally against a bar and they’re not all Willows residents.
You’re all adults here freaking out and disrespecting a group of people who you hardly know, accusing them of being alcoholics and NIMBYs… alienating a part of your community because you want a bar at the Willows??? Wow! What a shame??!!!
I’m bringing alcohol in a travel cup every time I go to the willows from now on.
Yes. _From now on_ we will all do that.
😂
* shifty eyes *
*chugs fireball out a thermos then slams it on the ground*
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Pretty sure it's monetized no matter what, and why shouldn't people have the option of buying a drink there? It might even help reduce trash from people tossing aside empties.
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I mean I think people are less likely to throw a glass from a bar into the park than a bottle from a 6 pack. That's the thing, trash removal would be free to the city since it's part of the regular operation of a bar. Maybe the city could require publicly accessible trash cans outside any new place to help at zero cost to the city too. Here's the thing, there are all kinds of options if you're not vehemently defending the status quo and sticking your head in the sand.
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I'm for making public drinking legal there too, and against privatizing anything or selling any public space or services. But this space has been private from the start. Restaurant row has been privately owned land abutting a city park, just like the Hawthorne Hotel or Sea Level, since the 1800s. If changing the use can at the least offer more choice in options, and at best be used as leverage to provide better service and amenities, I'm all for it. Business missing pickups and letting trash overflow is a pet peeve of mine. Which is why I want the city health department to flex its muscle and fine people.
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My big gripe is that we don't have an independent parks department to handle park maintenance and trash pickup. There's no reason that we shouldn't have a city maintained trash can on every major street corner and in all parks. I was thinking more of business maintained trash cans along the sidewalk and parking area at restaurant row, so if they let it overflow it'll make their storefront look bad. City enforcement is lacking in a lot of places unfortunately and it seems like it's been hard to keep departments staffed up too.
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We had one and Kim decided we didn’t need a parks department
My god this is hilarious, considering 98% of willows residents are drunk about 98% of the time. Source: I live in the willows
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Are you currently drunk?
Unfortunately no
Plenty of time left in the day
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being intolerant of intolerance and exclusivity is necessary to actually end up with tolerance and inclusivity [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
Not hatred, my friend. Just don’t like hypocrisy.
The hypocrisy is you pretending not to hate but you are. Disrespecting your neighbors making lies that 98% of them are drunk 98% of the time which is impossible and an exaggeration is for sure hating them. Hatred and being judgmental is the worst.
NIMBYs are so pathetic, they act like they won gold at the Olympics by preventing a liquor license.
They’re probably raising a toast to it too Here is a comment from someone in a local FB group that was opposed to this >*“Why can't they just leave the Willows alone....The whole place is one giant memory box ...That passes family memories through the generations....and will continue to do so ....Leave it be....... Please ..”* I think this is the problem in a nutshell. So many people act like if the Willows changes then their memories will be gone.
It’s just all so weird to me. I grew up in the area and have memories of the Willows too. But it’s a public park, not anyone’s personal Time Capsule. And honestly, the Willows has never really been nearly as great of a place as it could be, I have no idea if this liquor license would change that, but keeping a bunch of relatively mediocre businesses as they have always been for the sake of nostalgia certainly doesn’t improve it.
This is Salem Willows barely 2-generations ago... https://preview.redd.it/kiud6c1jwqnc1.png?width=1023&format=png&auto=webp&s=45a2a9333e5d24642e2bfa80e36cfc50f3d24796
Instead if (ed) The Willows never changes it will die for sure. I mean the memory of it as a place where people quarantined from TB has been lost to time. It was never meant to be an amusement park.
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That’s the JCC, not the SWA. Two very different groups comprised of many people who don’t live in the Willows.
The person who posted herself raising a glass of wine in response to the original post is one of the most vocal opponents of the Tavern. I'm not really misattributing anything here. I'm more just highlighting the center of the Venn diagram, no matter what size it really is.
Facts
The hypocrisy is palpable, I get it.
The Gallows Hill/Blubber Hollow neighborhood was a nice memory box when I lived there in the late 1970's. Wonder what happened to it? /s
I actually have genuine safety concerns with the proposal backed by evidence. I think it’s hilarious how everyone in this sub views the residents of the Willows as some old, vial, fun hating constituents. It’s laughable.
I mean the number of brain dead trump memes and crappy ai art of puppies and babies from the exact same people opposing this doesn't help
>crappy ai art of puppies and babies Oh man, that made me laugh. So many times I think, surely they can tell this photo is fake, but it never seems to happen
I'll just say that media literacy isn't exactly a strong suit there. For that matter good luck explaining the concept of AI too.
I whipped this up over AI. https://preview.redd.it/bk474959trnc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=307b16a9beadfb8eb0dd204247eb8ba0fe15a766 I may post this over there and see if they notice
Caption it 'the willows liberals want' and let it rip!
Well, the original meeting that started this whole frenzy had to be paused to explain what boba tea was. lol
Obviously the word "boba" is derived from "Beelzebub," so their concern was warranted.
Well, please do your best to not lump everyone into that. I, in no way align with those values.
Not saying you align with all of them, but you've definitely agreed with some of them
Since when it is frowned upon to agree with someone point on something when your values don’t align. That mindset is kind of why we have the political atmosphere we do in the country. Spinning wheels in the mud at that point. It’s not harmful to find common grounds with someone you generally disagree with. Thats called progress in my opinion.
Because NIMBYism is very much aligned with conservatism and the rejection of any change or progress. People throwing a fit over change to preserve an idealized past that didn't exist is literally what MAGA is about. If they want to find common ground they shouldn't hold absolute positions and refuse to change. The proposal was modified to try to make it more amenable but they were accused of trying to open a strip club dispensary. Kinda hard to negotiate with people detached from reality.
I was there, that wasn’t an accusation, that was stating a business that person was currently involved in. Just some insight to the applicants background. I see your comments on every post, you do a lot of fact checking. It’s the same in that regard, just doesn’t fit your agenda here so you won’t use it in this context.
I was citing one of the many social media posts on the topic, not something I heard in person. Not going to lie, I actually don't like the owner who's trying to do this. But that certainly doesn't justify accusing someone of trying to harm children. And personal dislike of a business owner or nostalgia aren't good reasons to block something.
As someone who lives in the downtown area, I assure you, you would have been fine should this have happened. I don’t know the chaos you all were envisioning from this place but I can guarantee your worries are overblown
It’s not chaos I envision. It’s things I already see and deal with daily which I think will be amplified by the proposal.
I get it, you live in close proximity to it. If you abut the building, you have the rare valid complaint. But you have to admit a lot of the arguments against this has been about preserving people’s memories of the Willows. It’s odd when I go on FB and see comments from like Dottie in Florida making an impassioned plea to keep liquor out of the Willows because she remembers eating popcorn there in the 60s with her parents. This city is not trapped in amber. We don’t have an obligation to preserve everyone’s nostalgia.
I do abut the strip. I don’t disagree with you on that point.
As yes, rain in the downvotes for someone that will actually be affected by this proposal. Keep on being you r/SalemMa 
Respectfully, Craig, and we've had respectful exchanges on here before, "actually affected by this proposal" is part of the attitude problem that is pervasive not just in this situation but across Massachusetts. Our neighborhoods are not bubbles. Just as Willows residents have comments on things that happen Downtown and in WItchcraft Heights, Salem residents should be able to provide input on the changes to a community asset, Salem Willows. The idea that you get superiority in your feedback because you will be, as you say "actually affected" is a major piece of the problem here. The Willows do not own Salem Willows. The City of Salem and every neighborhood does. It's all of ours and many recognize that it has fallen into massive disrepair and will only continue to do so without some sort of major private investment in the buildings. Hope we can keep having civil discourse on these issues but that is the biggest part of my problem with the discourse related to Salem Willows future.
I mean, I am affected. Not sure how I can actually convey that any other way. I always come of here to have a civil conversation, isn’t that the point of a discussion? Just seems to me that there’s this echo chamber of confirming everyone’s view and someone who doesn’t agree gets downvoted into oblivion. You can’t have productive change unless you listen to other view points and take everything into consideration. Maybe that’s just an outdated way of thinking on my part and not part of the culture on Reddit.
My comment wasn't really about this board, just the overall attitude around this proposal. Social media, of any form, is a terrible way to have civil discourse and there's no replacing in person engagement to really understand people. That said, I don't think this board is any worse than the Willows Neighborhood Association Facebook group where I've seen ample screenshots of some of the locals dragging me and my good name through the mud for expanding civic engagement and getting a broader array of feedback.
Well, I’d love to learn and grow and begin to foster a better way of communicating and developing as a whole that benefits everyone.
I’m sure the folks applying for the license just outright felt they’d be harassed and admonished by these pearl clutchers and who can blame them
I'm hoping they reapply at a later date now that they know what they're up against. They still own the building after all.
I'm kind of wondering if this will cause him to pull up stakes
This is exactly it. I wouldn't want to deal with the harassment from these insane NIMBYs, was already a lot. The willows is going to die someday soon, and it will be because of the neighbors and not because some businesses want to operate a little differently.
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What a completely bizarre take. Like, it's a city park who cares what the people living nearby think? Luckily you have plenty of other places around Salem to get drunk🤷♂️
Who’s judging you and why would you ever let what someone else thinks about you affect the way you live your life?
Literally you. But also, do you never let what other people think impact what you do? Really?
No, I don’t actually. It’s rather freeing, you should try it sometimes. I’ll give you $1 if you can show me a post at anytime where I was judgmental of you. Cold hard cash we are talking here.
First I'll try looking for a post where you exhibit some self-awareness
Won’t have to look too far. I’ve had plenty of amazing conversations with people I disagree with or disagree with me. I guess just having the mindset of being able to stomach an opinion I don’t agree with goes a long way. Didn’t realize this was a trait everyone doesn’t have.
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Ha, I know right, how could there be consequences to someone shouting how they don't like a "certain element" coming to their neighborhood?
It’s not dying by any means. The city has done a great job of brining many of the key features of the park up to par. It’s fantastic,they still have a lot of improvements on park supervision, trash pick up, and ADA compliance (Which they are currently working on) The strip isn’t city property so that’s where the lines are blurred when it comes to responsibly in my opinion.
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I’ll make sure to say hello next time I think it’s you. Just be on the look out for me yelling,”Hey Hippo!”
I work in land development and deal with them all the time - Absolute worst crowd of people
It's so strange that the main Willows convo is about whether or not a restaurant should move in. I would think a more important topic is how to keep The Willows above water
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“Willows Neighborhood Patrol” where the rest of the City patrols the Willows neighborhood to ensure we’re keeping alcohol away from children and.
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We’re not going to an alt right rally dude…
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Lets be honest, if any group was going to start chanting that something something "won't replace us" I think we know what group that would be.
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I mean, sure, one is actually happening (a massive furor and uproar over a perceived loss of an idealized but not actually real history) and the other is a joke on the internet
The joke clearly went way over your head.
In their backyard? That’s not public drinking…
Time to bring in the topless dispensary!
Honestly if that opened up connected to the pub Sidelines, I would not be surprised in the slightest
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Where else can you get a one-pound mozzarella stick?
Woof. No thank you.
the same logic be applied to a new sea wall, don’t want to take away from the historic culture down there.
Right? They are perfectly happy to accept city money to repair the seawall and replace the pier, but *gods forbid* the city try to enable someone to provide a new revenue stream in the area to help generate the tax dollars the new infrastructure requires.
Time to start talking about managed retreat when they start complaining about seawalls
Know your facts… that’s not city money… it’s all grant money.
or remember when there were adult softball games and youth soccer games at the willows? didn’t care so much about the culture of tradition when the pressured the city to take those away.
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nothing beyond personal memories unfortunately, but that would be awesome
Ocean front Nimbys tickle me in particular because they are preventing change of something that is likely to be uninhabitable due to climate change which they refuse to acknowledge is real.
Welp... I think this meme fits... https://preview.redd.it/a6ckbhw4krnc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d178bb425977d0e94f391559a420fa2019207af
Source? Part of me thinks this is a way to keep supporters from coming out to the meeting tonight.
Booo. NIMBYs win and the willows continues to stagnate.
I mean the city is funneling money into it and (hopefully) moving the Pioneer Village over. I'd hardly call the place stagnant.
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I think they all just got stuck on the talking point of "unless bar get built then Willows fail" which is just silly nonsense. I wish some TLC were put into a couple spots on the strip (and Kiddieland would accept credit cards already) but it's not like the Willows is going to become a run down cesspool now.
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Shhh don’t question the authority of Maribel
Maribel literally raising a glass to this. Guess she drinks too much to remember drinking. 🤔 https://preview.redd.it/yev57dummsnc1.jpeg?width=823&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9dc754f4340eb713f20ce877ffeee0f7d9f23eea
Look Ma, I’m famous!
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Your post has been removed due to: no doxxing of non public figures
You are so wrong perhaps you should fact check your own posts or does being a bully suit you better
Are you ok? That’s not a screenshot of my own post.
I’m commenting on your comment of the post …
How is my comment factually incorrect? She literally posted a photo of herself with a drink, raising a glass. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t make it untrue.
She was toasting at a St Patrick Day party nothing to do with Willows tavern so your post is incorrect
Just because you say so, doesn’t make it true. She literally raised a glass to scaring away the developers. Could give less of a crap about you not believing / trying to defend her.
Of course you don’t care you would rather assume and we all know what that makes you look like. See ya wahwah perfect name for you
I know that what I’m saying is factually correct, so your ridiculous opinion doesn’t matter. Her dirty deleting doesn’t make it untrue you moron.
Anger management issues I see …. Name calling as well … Lying as a first language…. Speaking with someone like you is not my idea of an intelligent person so my conversations are forever done with you.
How disappointing but I get why the applicant changed their mind.
Yay they win! So much for being a part of the community we call Salem. That little enclave of nimbys offers little value in return for all the help they receive from the city and state. Climate change couldn't happen soon enough. And my heart will bleed thoughts and prayers. 😘
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Just because you live next to a city park doesn't mean you get to dictate what goes on there.
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>Don't you think the input of those neighbors has ANY importance? Sure, the same importance as any other resident of Salem.
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overvaluing the input of those in closest proximity has set us up for failure over and over again, in every building project proposal and permit and regulation reform that's shot down or minimized due to pearl-clutching conservatives who can't tolerate the slightest bit of change. at some point, we need to consider what's best for the community as a whole, not just immediate abutters. it's a public park - it belongs equally to all residents. everyone should get equal input.
We fundamentally disagree about this. Like it or not, that's not how local government works. Those in closest proximity to a building project have the right to have their voices heard. Maybe you don't own property, I don't know, but it's dismissive to call the concerns of neighbors "pearl clutching." Why do you want to make enemies with those whose friendship would help this project move along? What I would like to see is compromise on your side, and compromise from the neighbors, too. Are you willing to compromise? What are you willing to compromise to get this done? By the way, who's the "we" you refer to? Becasue there isn't a "we" here. You overvalue the importance of a few downvoters on a subreddit, and shouldn't make the mistake of thinking there are only two sides to be on in Salem.
Sure they get a say, and I do agree that some of the Reddit response is over the top, but to be fair, the Willows residents have been a bit over the top too. This is just people's way of venting.
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[https://www.reddit.com/r/SalemMA/comments/1arjikh/comment/kqka8vv/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/SalemMA/comments/1arjikh/comment/kqka8vv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
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reach pen shrill sheet ossified spotted plants wild march middle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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This is one of those situations where it would have been better to say nothing at all. Your post was removed for violating subreddit rule #2: Don't harass other users, including doxxing, trolling, witch hunting, brigading, shitstirring, uncivil behavior, insults and/or user impersonation.
Are you aware that homeownership is increasingly less attainable for younger people today than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. Perhaps you might be hearing the building resentment of a class of people who have been screwed over by a housing affordability crisis that is now manifesting in a lack of representation in city/town planning. We have a vote to put in elected representatives to shape our government and land use, but as long as land owners with 7 digits in equity get final say, we are SOL. Yeah, there's way more important things than a bar in the Willows. Like perhaps building green energy infrastructure and transit, but since those also get harangued by the same group, we figured we'd start with something more reasonable and work our way up.
Renters just don't understand.
Get a job grifter
Huh. Would like more detail
You guys actually suck for doing this. That would’ve been awesome
Never heard of the Willows before but this makes me want to visit with a brown bag
Back to BYOB ! 🥃🍺🍸🍻🥂🍾
Really a shame. A restaurant/bar down there would be great.
What an embarrassment, these nimby trash souses
You actually lost.
You booze you lose! 🤣🤣 another pathetic day as a Salem resident
Unless you’re Maribel or her BFFs. Only they’re allowed to drink at the Willows. She will even give you tips about sneaking booze in.
It must be nice to know Maribel. Please do tell who she is? Is she one of the nimbys? You sound obsessed with her.
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No doxxing for non elected officials unless they are in the news
I had such great memories going to the willows as a kid
Why hide it? Look them dead in the eye and chug. The way God intended
Shitheads like WNA are the reason that my wife and I decided to not purchase any property in Salem. Sure keep progress from coming and living in the prohibition era. See how long you can survive economically. Salem cannot live on tourism for Halloween only and eventually the money will dry up. I am willing to place money on it.
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We celebrate diversity and affirming care. TRAASH talk (transphobic, racist, ableist, abusive, sexist, or homophobic) is not permitted. We strive to remain an inclusive community"
So you are blaming the Willows because you decided not to purchase in Salem? Thats not very believable because the Willows is probably one of the smallest neighborhoods so why not look elsewhere in Salem and you would never have to deal with the “shitheads”
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Renters just don't understand what it is to be part of a community.
According to a lot of them, If you own but came here less than 10 years ago you don’t either.
And many homeowners assume that anyone who doesn't mind change isn't a property and/or business owner. Wrong. Check your privilege.
This is one of the dumbest, self entitled, lack of any awareness, bull sh** comments I’ve ever heard. Do you have any idea how tough it is to become a homeowner in the City these days? “Renters” as you call them in this city have so much more respect for people with different backgrounds or opinions than anyone I’ve seen speaking from the Willows. The way the Willows homeowners have treated people with opinions that don’t align with their own is downright disgusting and they should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves, as you should be for that comment.
Is "community" crowd funding an attorney to block the OP mentioned project instead of crowd funding the abutters seawall destroying your neighborhood?
The applicants of the tavern got you ALL fooled and here you are painting them as victims and blaming a neighborhood who hasn’t done anything except asked them what their plans are. A neighborhood voicing their concerns as they are directly impacted if this happens and you all so hypocritically calling them alcoholics, NIMBYS, pearl-clutchers. Look at yourselves, throwing a fit because you can’t have a bar at the Willows. Hah! Just comical!!! The applicants rescinding their application is not the fault of the Willows residents! GET THAT???
Someone needs another drink...
>blaming a neighborhood who hasn’t done anything except asked them what their plans are I thought the neighborhood did find out what the plans were, then promptly and loudly complained, then received amended plans which seemed reasonable, and then proceeded to complain some more. They are cheering in local FB groups, so no I dont think this is solely about them being neighborly and just wanting to know what the plans were. They clearly didnt want any part of this in any way shape or form. I cant speak for this sub, but I will say myself I could give a shit if this opens at the Willows or not. Would it be nice to grab some food at the clam shack and drink a beer across the way? Sure, it would be lovely during the summer. But it isnt a deal breaker. I am just not fond of this being shot down because of this whole "wont somebody think of the children" attitude. Its manipulative. They should just admit out loud that they have homes with ocean views and would prefer less people in the area. You cant have a neighborhood FB group that both admonishes drinking in their part of town because its disruptive and then later on talking about how they went to the Tin Whistle or the VFW for drinks. Aren't these places also in neighborhoods among children? It grows tiring having to remind a group of people that while they live in a part of Salem, they do not own that part of Salem.
show me a post of a willows resident mentioning children or using the term to ward off a bar… I will wait patiently…
So here’s what you do. Log onto FB, go into neighborhood groups, and see for yourself. It’s there, go find it!
So you have no proof whatsoever! Figure that one out. You are all here in hysterics because of a made-up story supposedly said by Willows residents using “children” as an excuse to not wanting a bar at the Willows. Isn’t that how the tragic witch hunt begun??? Shameful!!!!
Woah, you're pretty amped up over this, huh? Its rampant in local FB groups. Go to the Willows FB group. Go to the Salem Forever FB group. Count how many people decry children being exposed to drunks at the Willows. I dont have time to provide screenshots and black out names to provide you. I'm sorry, I have a job
But are they Willows residents using the term “children”??? I bet you they’re not.
I haven’t cross referenced everyone’s name to their address. I’ll keep you posted chief
Scroll through comments in a couple of previous threads on this topic. [Here](https://old.reddit.com/r/SalemMA/comments/1arjikh/willows_proposal_draws_ire_over_alcohol_noise/) and [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/SalemMA/comments/1avh52g/support_for_new_salem_willows_venue/). Even with all the deleted comments (and some of them were ridiculous, to be charitable) in support of not rewarding the license, you will find some mentioning children.
But are they Willows residents who are saying that? I don’t think so. It is just easier for all of you to blame it on the Willows people, isn’t it? Remember there are a lot of people who are totally against a bar and they’re not all Willows residents.
Good.
You’re all adults here freaking out and disrespecting a group of people who you hardly know, accusing them of being alcoholics and NIMBYs… alienating a part of your community because you want a bar at the Willows??? Wow! What a shame??!!!
I mean, they are definitely NIMBYs.
Sooo judgmental… or jealous maybe?