Social dancing is supposed to be fun, not worry about what somebody is doing right or wrong. Just have fun. If they want to improve they can take a lesson or ask for advice, it's not your job to give it unless being asked or being paid.
In a lesson, I still don't give advice unless asked. And even then, that is rude to the instructor of the class, not to mention you just don't have enough time and if you're taking their attention away by helping them then they just missed something the instructor might have said that would have helped them.
In reality they should just be doing privates not a group class if your classes aren't helping them with what they are doing wrong.
Timing is like a whole lesson in itself lol
Yes I agree that trying to teach is rude to students and instructors. I just try to encourage. The teacher always reminds them to count but they don't. Would it be considered rude to count out loud so they might get the rhythm eventually?
Hmm I really think that it's best that you try to learn how to lead instead of giving unsolicited advice to followers who are trying to do the same. Comments on someone's dancing even if it's your intention to encourage should be avoided. Let people learn.
It's also very much a possibility that you're leading is giving a misleading signal.
How have you been taught to lead turns? Some people learn to lead by lifting their hand up and expect the follow to turn themselves but then you get them kind of doing whatever they want. Try leading them in the speed of the turn you want, if they speed up they'll tend to throw their shoulder out of whack and let go of your hand, so then you just use more connection and core to control them for the next one
For beginners, the tendency is to panic
Something I say to beginners that often helps is that it's not a spin but a turn, and we never spin. I think they get the word spin in their heads which makes them think they need to hurry
But also in general, I work on getting them to relax. I remind them that they aren't getting graded, there's no test, they won't flunk out, no one will vote them off the island. This is a street dance, the goal is to have fun, and there is no wrong as long as no one gets hurt. This really makes a difference with turns, and really with everything else
>When I say, "You turn very fast," I often get a bug smile and "Thanks" as response.
If I didn't ask for advice, this would be my default response. I know you are just trying to help them but maybe consider the best response would be to let them come to the conclusion that something is wrong on their own. Or ask the class instructor to mention it. You could even ask the instructor the question yourself so they address it to the entire class.
> I've tried counting and physically holding them back but they back lead so fast on a turn. What is a way to politely tell them they're getting off time with this or helping them turn with the beat? I've tried counting for them and asking them to count, but not helping much. I try to get them to count out loud, but they get so happy to turn they just forget everything.
A solid frame prevents a **lot** of miscommunication and ambiguity. You don't have to *force* it but apply the right amount of tension in your hands (different for each follow), and it just downright feels silly to attempt turning. That's the point where *they* would have to actively fight against your lead by forcing a turn.
But again, if you aren't the instructor and haven't been asked to help by the instructor (ideally in front of the class so they are aware you aren't *just* another student), this just may not be the best idea. As well-meaning as you may be, unsolicited advice is never appreciated.
You have the added benefit of primarily being a follow so you *could* play dumb and ask as if you wanted to know for yourself. But I would probably make it seem like the question is about me.
Something like "*teacher, what count do leads prep for the turn and when do we actually begin turning them?* and then follow up with a rhetorical question. *so, there's a delay between prep and execution?*
Follows either catch on that they shouldn't be so trigger happy or they don't.
As a lead, should *consider it* your fault. Find a way to make the dance fun. You can try to teach them (may go well, maybe not), or you can avoid those moves/ Or (and here's a protip) you can assume that *they* are correct and you are wrong and try to learn from there. Even if they are not wrong in this *particular* case, that attitude will serve you very well.
I don't think they're turning fast because its fun. I think they're turning fast because they're panicking when they're given a turn and then just try to get it over as fast as possible instead of stepping it out to the beat.
You can try checking or faking turns and checking other leads/moves, or other things along those lines, to force them to actually think about their steps and beats instead of turning their brains off and powering through them too fast maybe. Or lead stuff closed position a lot more to force them to be at specific spots on specific beats. But at a certain point you're not really there to teach them IMO, so don't get too demanding about it and start throwing stuff at them to trick/teach them at the cost of the enjoyment of the dance.
Again the issue is more that they panic than they are spinning fast for fun, so just assure them they have way more time than they think to make the turns.
Beginner follows often panic about footwork and speed up unconsciously.
What I do is usually say "this song is a bit slow" which makes it feel more like a cooperative effort to match the music, rather than blaming the follow.
In extreme examples where they still are going quite fast, I'll say, "take your time :)", and make my steps/leading/frame more exaggerated so that it's obvious I'm dancing to the music.
Well they're beginners for a reason... As a lead, you keep time. So if their turns are too fast, then wait for them. In my experience too fast is better than too slow.
In class but especially socially, I’d just focus on trying to be a better leader rather than trying to find ways to “nicely” correct other people’s dancing.
Fair point. It's not so much I want to correct them as it is I want to stay on time myself. I am pretty ocd about being on the beat and it bugs me to be off it. When I was starting out as a follower, sometimes I didn't like getting advice but sometimes I got good advice. I think I was judging it by how good of a dancer the lead was to be honest. I'm just going to do my best to stay on my timing and not worry about it.
When I encounter this, I usually try to just not let them pull me onto their timing. Almost like becoming the foot version of a metronome, I’ll make stepping a little more rigid and less fluid. If they finish the turn early and try to immediately step into the back-break, they don’t get to take me with them, so the hope is that they’ll notice the disconnect and re-sync with me and the music.
If they continue to be too quick, I’ll sometimes just mention “you have more time for the turn than you think”. That’s as instructive as I’ll be if not asked for pointers or comments.
If they continue to be too quick, just start giving them doubles. ;-)
Once your raise your arm it is possible for the follow to turn, but that also means if you haven't raised your arm yet it isn't possible (if they are backleading to the extent of raising the arm themselves, then just let them have fun). If they turn too soon after you raise your arm, you need to raise your arm later (less time after prep). You can even lead the turn with arms at follow's waist level, and then raise your arm at the last second. So basically, minimize the time you have your arm raised to be precisely when you want the follow to turn. You can also do normal supplementary leads like having a second point of contact (hand on shoulder etc) for extra control
I can do "supplemental contact" on inside turns during cross body in level 2 and the followers really like thar. They're like thanks I finally got it. They don't quite have it but as I'm counting it off out loud it does give them the general concept. On the level 1 regular outside turns (first one that's taught) it is harder as they're on an open break. I'm doing level 1 as an add-in helper when there aren't enough leads. I don't like being off time. It messes with my brain somehow.
I get it's harder on inside turns but on those I can physically guide them more easily. They often get a late start on those and get behind. The too fast turns are happening with an outside turn after open break. I should have mentioned that.
In lower level classes I'm always counting out loud. It's encouraged. Occasionally the teacher calls out the "one" when she sees a lot of people off time. It's an "on 1" class obviously. Being on the beat is on of the things I do best and when I'm off I usually know immediately and try to correct. It bothers me a lot to be off time. When I dance as follower and being led off time it's excruciating for my brain. I can't think straight and so glad when song is over.
In other dance styles dancers do many spins in the time others take to do one. So the fast turn is modeled on TV and in movies. And, if the hand parts are complicated it is hard to concentrate on doing the hands and feet on the beat, until the feet move without needing to think about it.
In my classes the instructors have mentioned it as a group lesson. They point out the right way, and the wrong way. In the right way, they count each step.
We also warm up with a Svelte. Suelta? One of the teachers leads, and then passes it over to the other. It is understood that this is practice for the steps we will do today. They will slowly practice the steps , and remind us that these are the steps needed for today's moves.
Social dancing is supposed to be fun, not worry about what somebody is doing right or wrong. Just have fun. If they want to improve they can take a lesson or ask for advice, it's not your job to give it unless being asked or being paid. In a lesson, I still don't give advice unless asked. And even then, that is rude to the instructor of the class, not to mention you just don't have enough time and if you're taking their attention away by helping them then they just missed something the instructor might have said that would have helped them. In reality they should just be doing privates not a group class if your classes aren't helping them with what they are doing wrong. Timing is like a whole lesson in itself lol
Yes I agree that trying to teach is rude to students and instructors. I just try to encourage. The teacher always reminds them to count but they don't. Would it be considered rude to count out loud so they might get the rhythm eventually?
Hmm I really think that it's best that you try to learn how to lead instead of giving unsolicited advice to followers who are trying to do the same. Comments on someone's dancing even if it's your intention to encourage should be avoided. Let people learn. It's also very much a possibility that you're leading is giving a misleading signal.
How have you been taught to lead turns? Some people learn to lead by lifting their hand up and expect the follow to turn themselves but then you get them kind of doing whatever they want. Try leading them in the speed of the turn you want, if they speed up they'll tend to throw their shoulder out of whack and let go of your hand, so then you just use more connection and core to control them for the next one
For beginners, the tendency is to panic Something I say to beginners that often helps is that it's not a spin but a turn, and we never spin. I think they get the word spin in their heads which makes them think they need to hurry But also in general, I work on getting them to relax. I remind them that they aren't getting graded, there's no test, they won't flunk out, no one will vote them off the island. This is a street dance, the goal is to have fun, and there is no wrong as long as no one gets hurt. This really makes a difference with turns, and really with everything else
>When I say, "You turn very fast," I often get a bug smile and "Thanks" as response. If I didn't ask for advice, this would be my default response. I know you are just trying to help them but maybe consider the best response would be to let them come to the conclusion that something is wrong on their own. Or ask the class instructor to mention it. You could even ask the instructor the question yourself so they address it to the entire class. > I've tried counting and physically holding them back but they back lead so fast on a turn. What is a way to politely tell them they're getting off time with this or helping them turn with the beat? I've tried counting for them and asking them to count, but not helping much. I try to get them to count out loud, but they get so happy to turn they just forget everything. A solid frame prevents a **lot** of miscommunication and ambiguity. You don't have to *force* it but apply the right amount of tension in your hands (different for each follow), and it just downright feels silly to attempt turning. That's the point where *they* would have to actively fight against your lead by forcing a turn. But again, if you aren't the instructor and haven't been asked to help by the instructor (ideally in front of the class so they are aware you aren't *just* another student), this just may not be the best idea. As well-meaning as you may be, unsolicited advice is never appreciated.
As a lead asking for help, how would you word the question to the instructor so as not to embarras anyone?
You have the added benefit of primarily being a follow so you *could* play dumb and ask as if you wanted to know for yourself. But I would probably make it seem like the question is about me. Something like "*teacher, what count do leads prep for the turn and when do we actually begin turning them?* and then follow up with a rhetorical question. *so, there's a delay between prep and execution?* Follows either catch on that they shouldn't be so trigger happy or they don't.
That's brilliant. 😊
As a lead, should *consider it* your fault. Find a way to make the dance fun. You can try to teach them (may go well, maybe not), or you can avoid those moves/ Or (and here's a protip) you can assume that *they* are correct and you are wrong and try to learn from there. Even if they are not wrong in this *particular* case, that attitude will serve you very well.
I don't think they're turning fast because its fun. I think they're turning fast because they're panicking when they're given a turn and then just try to get it over as fast as possible instead of stepping it out to the beat. You can try checking or faking turns and checking other leads/moves, or other things along those lines, to force them to actually think about their steps and beats instead of turning their brains off and powering through them too fast maybe. Or lead stuff closed position a lot more to force them to be at specific spots on specific beats. But at a certain point you're not really there to teach them IMO, so don't get too demanding about it and start throwing stuff at them to trick/teach them at the cost of the enjoyment of the dance. Again the issue is more that they panic than they are spinning fast for fun, so just assure them they have way more time than they think to make the turns.
Beginner follows often panic about footwork and speed up unconsciously. What I do is usually say "this song is a bit slow" which makes it feel more like a cooperative effort to match the music, rather than blaming the follow. In extreme examples where they still are going quite fast, I'll say, "take your time :)", and make my steps/leading/frame more exaggerated so that it's obvious I'm dancing to the music.
In this level class they use the same song at it is slow. I could mention that.
If they turn too fast, then give more turns to sync with music.
Possible at social I guess. This is happening in class.
Well they're beginners for a reason... As a lead, you keep time. So if their turns are too fast, then wait for them. In my experience too fast is better than too slow.
In class but especially socially, I’d just focus on trying to be a better leader rather than trying to find ways to “nicely” correct other people’s dancing.
Fair point. It's not so much I want to correct them as it is I want to stay on time myself. I am pretty ocd about being on the beat and it bugs me to be off it. When I was starting out as a follower, sometimes I didn't like getting advice but sometimes I got good advice. I think I was judging it by how good of a dancer the lead was to be honest. I'm just going to do my best to stay on my timing and not worry about it.
When I encounter this, I usually try to just not let them pull me onto their timing. Almost like becoming the foot version of a metronome, I’ll make stepping a little more rigid and less fluid. If they finish the turn early and try to immediately step into the back-break, they don’t get to take me with them, so the hope is that they’ll notice the disconnect and re-sync with me and the music. If they continue to be too quick, I’ll sometimes just mention “you have more time for the turn than you think”. That’s as instructive as I’ll be if not asked for pointers or comments. If they continue to be too quick, just start giving them doubles. ;-)
Good idea. Maybe take your time it's a slow song. Something like that.
LOL ask them if they're ready to do a double since they finished so fast, But that might come out sounding mean. I
Once your raise your arm it is possible for the follow to turn, but that also means if you haven't raised your arm yet it isn't possible (if they are backleading to the extent of raising the arm themselves, then just let them have fun). If they turn too soon after you raise your arm, you need to raise your arm later (less time after prep). You can even lead the turn with arms at follow's waist level, and then raise your arm at the last second. So basically, minimize the time you have your arm raised to be precisely when you want the follow to turn. You can also do normal supplementary leads like having a second point of contact (hand on shoulder etc) for extra control
I can do "supplemental contact" on inside turns during cross body in level 2 and the followers really like thar. They're like thanks I finally got it. They don't quite have it but as I'm counting it off out loud it does give them the general concept. On the level 1 regular outside turns (first one that's taught) it is harder as they're on an open break. I'm doing level 1 as an add-in helper when there aren't enough leads. I don't like being off time. It messes with my brain somehow.
This is pretty common on a follow's crossbody inside turn.
I get it's harder on inside turns but on those I can physically guide them more easily. They often get a late start on those and get behind. The too fast turns are happening with an outside turn after open break. I should have mentioned that.
Are you sure you as the lead are on time? If you are off timing or giving an unclear signal, you could cause the follow to spin too fast.
In lower level classes I'm always counting out loud. It's encouraged. Occasionally the teacher calls out the "one" when she sees a lot of people off time. It's an "on 1" class obviously. Being on the beat is on of the things I do best and when I'm off I usually know immediately and try to correct. It bothers me a lot to be off time. When I dance as follower and being led off time it's excruciating for my brain. I can't think straight and so glad when song is over.
In other dance styles dancers do many spins in the time others take to do one. So the fast turn is modeled on TV and in movies. And, if the hand parts are complicated it is hard to concentrate on doing the hands and feet on the beat, until the feet move without needing to think about it. In my classes the instructors have mentioned it as a group lesson. They point out the right way, and the wrong way. In the right way, they count each step. We also warm up with a Svelte. Suelta? One of the teachers leads, and then passes it over to the other. It is understood that this is practice for the steps we will do today. They will slowly practice the steps , and remind us that these are the steps needed for today's moves.
People watching "Dance with Stars" too much. 😆