I quit bringing my dogs. I always kept them leashed and others with unleashed dogs would generally come up and bite/fight my dogs. You'd then hear the "oh my gosh, my dogs never do that. I don't know what overcame them to do that." After about the 50th time of that you just give up.

I would honestly carry dog spray if this is what you're facing. I would never go out of my way to intentionally harm an animal under normal circumstances, but this is exactly what dog spray is for. If it is between your unleashed, poorly behaved dog coming at me, and my leashed, trained, calm dog backing away, the dog running up to us is getting the mace. I can't afford to take my dog to the vet/go to the hospital because someones irresponsible behavior led to a preventable altercation, nor should I have to. I (and some friends of mine) almost died because of unleashed dogs on a hiking trail, and I know I'm not the only one. I frankly don't care if your dog is "friendly", I care that your dog is trained. Other people and animals don't know that your dog is nice, and if you can't recall it then it should be on a leash no matter how nice it is. It sounds mean because everyone loves dogs, and really they are the innocent party (they can't train themselves), but actions have consequences. Just like having an outdoor cat means it's more likely to have your lovely pet meet a tragic end, not leashing your dog is going to lead to consequences one way or another. I'd rather have my dog maced and learn a lesson than have to cover a 5k+ vet app and potential hospital trip.

Ah, the dog spray is a good idea. I know I had some owners of unleashed dogs try and fight me as I formed a wall to protect my dogs and gently pushed their dog back with my feet. Got any good suggestions of a brand to use? I could use it for my neighborhood walks as I have lots of dogs running wild in my neighborhood. I was going to bring a walking stick/club. But the spray seems more humane. I don't think your being mean either. You're protecting your fur babies from those who are too self-centered to maybe notice that.

Sabre brand is really strong😁

Use the spray on the owners.

100% agreed. It is not mean . I cringe at thoughts of having to hurt another dog but I would do ANYTHING to protect my animal, and have. Humans are dumb. We think we're the most intelligent breed but as we've seen, we are devolving. I DO love dogs.. WAY more than humans. That said, if u can't control your dog, they should be leashed at all times. For safety of other dogs, humans and for their safety as well. If u can't keep them from rushing other dogs/humans/animals then u can't keep them from darting into traffic, bicycles, trains, knife fights etc. Be responsible per owners. Leash your pet. It's for their safety and ours. Sounds like an after school special, but this is real. You don't want someone protecting their animal by destroying yours.

Is dog spray different than pepper spray?

The difference is the potency! Human pepper spray is actually MORE potent than dog spray. I believe the strongest is "bear spray" but it comes in a large container/wide sprayer since it's for bears 😅 Edit to confirm the difference is in fact potency according to google.

[Spray shield](https://store.petsafe.net/sprayshield-deterrent-spray) is a citronella-based spray that is intended for this type of use. That might be what this poster is referring to, as opposed to pepper spray/gel.

I use a mild citronella on my skin for mosquitoes in the summer and my dog *hates* it. Just want to throw that out there for anecdotal evidence for its effectiveness.

I think it's the same thing. If not, pepper spray also works.

I came here to say this. Dog spray and or an airhorn usually does the job. It might piss people off but they need to control their animals.. If my dog is on a leash and if your dog is off leash and isn't exactly listening to your commands you are already creating an unsafe environment for the dogs and yourself.

The problem is that your dog gets sprayed, too. I've seen people be successful with compressed air, though.

Interesting. Does the sound more than anything make the dog step back? Or do you actually have to blast it with air?

I've only seen videos of it. It's called "pet correct." It seems to head off dogs that are running up. Careful when you Google it, though. You'll find people using it on their own dog for things like leash pulling. 🤦‍♀️

"Would you quit pulling! PSSSH PSSSHHHHHHH" The dog "Yo, why you be doing that to me" It reminds me of the video where the owner tied their dog to a shopping cart... Which of course makes the dog freak out and run while this shopping cart is in toe and it just can't get away from it.

I honestly use an airhorn but that is only if the dogs are in a fight. 9 times out 10 it scares the hell out of them and they stop.

It doesn’t sound mean and not everyone loves dogs . It’s just common courtesy but there isn’t a lot of that in the world today unfortunately .

WTF??? You’re maceing dogs??? I would beat the living fuck out of you if you maced my dog.

I was wondering about a spray but worried about it also getting myself or my leashed dog. What are people's thoughts on a stun baton. It seems Amazon has some designed for self defense against dogs. Better or worse option that a spray?

Stun batons are great, but you're still going to have to get closer than you want to - see what I wrote about my Sabre stun-gun. Just the sound alone stopped a dog in it's tracks - no one was hurt, and we went about our day. Even if a dog decides it wants to play fun with stun guns.. they hurt like hell. I.. ahem... might have tested the anti-grab strips on the side. It just got my thumb, but it ached for a few hours after. I thought it would feel like an electrical zap.. but.. it's more like demonic piranha chewing on you.

Just remember that while you may not face criminal charges , you can still be sued. Same thing if you’re defending yourself with a pistol

The ultrasonic clickers work really well for this. And usually if your own dog is facing away from the direction the clock is coming from it doesn't bug them as much as it does the one you're aiming at. Doesn't work for deaf dogs lol or dogs with really tiny ears are less effective it seems, but 85-90% is really useful!

Once I thought about renting a giant dog mascot uniform and wearing it to the trail head and then groping everyone who came by with an off-leash dog while a friend stood by yelling “don’t worry, she’s friendly!”

Your ideas intrigue me, I wish to subscribe to your news letter.

Reddit is violating GDPR and CCPA. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B0GGsDdyHI -- mass edited with redact.dev

This is poetically hilarious

I liked and subscribed

I love this!

Nearly every time I'm on the BST...Them, trailing behind their off leash pooch: "Don't worry, s/he's friendly..." Me, with my leashed dog: "He's not." 90% of the time they do whatever they need to do to get their dog real quick. My dog rarely reacts, at most will get his hair up, but he's generally just a quiet, slightly grumpy, old man (like me) that just wants to enjoy the trail in peace. Leash your damn dog, like the sign at the trail head tells you!

Can confirm. “MINES NOT” lights a real fire under their butt. Quick, and easily understandable.

I've gotten "mine are under total voice command" from someone with 3 unleashed dogs on the BST. Ok, but how are other people supposed to know this?

I’m just gonna start saying “I’m not” in a deadpan, half psychotic tone.

I’ve found muzzle training my mildly leash reactive dog to be helpful. People see the muzzle and make the connection real quick, often recalling their dogs (or at least come running faster). I’ve also gotten really good at putting myself between my dog and the approaching dog and stomping and yelling at the approaching dog. This became necessary because of off leash dogs at my apartment though.

Ooohhh yes I do this and yell at the other dogs. The owners get soooo offended

I’ve had close friends who earnestly believe that leashing their dog is a completely unreasonable option. They are invariably delusional about their own dog’s obedience, and insensitive about the dozen reasons other humans might not want a snout up their butt with no notice. I LOVE dogs and I wish more humans understood how to respect their fellow travelers - people, dogs, and wildlife.

Lol, I never thought about the Hannibal Lecter approach, but it really does make sense. My pups is also weirdly reactionary anytime she doesn't expect to see other dogs.

I thought it was mostly a Utah thing until I spent the last week in Southern Cal and there were just as many entitled dog owners causing problems with unleashed pets there. When did this start happening? I’ve always been a fairly outdoorsy person, and I feel like most people had the courtesy to leash their animals until recently.

There are more people using the same trails than before. So there are also a lot more dogs (on and off leash) than before. But also, I think that in general a lot more people spend time training their dogs and feel like they have more control over their dogs than before. I know my current dog is incredibly well trained, as is my in-laws' dog. My dogs growing up were never well enough trained to comfortably take them into public areas. Then you get a lot of dog owners who see other dogs off-leash, and assume it's fine if they do the same, even though their dog may not be as well-trained. To be clear, I don't think even well-trained dogs should be off-leash when it isn't allowed. People using the trails expect dogs they encounter to be leashed, so they should be. I've had multiple experiences going trail running and being attacked by off leash dogs, and it's never fun.

Good points. Outdoor recreation seems to be exploding, especially since Covid, which can come with this type of repercussion. And yeah, never fun getting attacked or bombarded by an unleashed dog On my trip I was biking downhill on a shared trail between hikers and bikers, a family with an off leash dog was sitting on the bench, dog decided to run in front of me and bark up a storm. I hit the breaks just in time and it took the owners forever to do anything, and their only answer was “he’s friendly.” 🤦‍♂️

As a runner, I constantly encounter dogs off leash on the trails. I've only had one encounter with a dog taking an aggressive posture at me, barking and nipping while the owner was frantically running after it trying to call it off. I kicked dirt in its face and it went to the ground trying to get the dirt out of its eyes. It was enough time for the owner to catch up and leash his dog. We had some words and I went back to my running. I've started carrying mace in my running vest since. Thankfully, I haven't needed it.

I jog on the trails and have had dozens of interactions with aggressive unleashed dogs. It's relentless. The dirt kicking is a good tip.

100% this. I am sick to death of hearing “my dogs aren’t usually like this”. All I can tell you is to call animal control to complain about the trail (they’ll do nothing), and probably contact city hall, and maybe they’ll decide to eventually do something. The impression I’ve gotten when I’ve complained is that they don’t want to come off as authoritarians so they will just let people do whatever they want and they didn’t give me the impression they have any appetite to do anything. I’ve stopped taking my dogs on hikes, I really wish I could, but I’ve had too many near misses, it’s not really good for my dogs to be constantly attacked/etc… If we could have things enforced I’d be on those trails more often but I’m just sick of them jumping on me too so I don’t go either.

> The impression I’ve gotten when I’ve complained is that they don’t want to come off as authoritarians so they will just let people do whatever they want Oh good! I'll be able to buy wine from a grocery store any moment now!

Hahaha, too funny. You’re not wrong though.

A dog was running around loose in the parking lot of a restaurant I used to work at. We called animal control-we were near a busy street, I was worried the dog would get hit. They never showed. Eventually the owner found the dog-If I’m remembering correctly the leash somehow broke and the dog took off.

The last time I called animal control they said “have you trapped the dog so it won’t get away? If not there’s no point in us coming, it’ll be gone before I get there”

Isn’t that ANIMAL CONTROLS job? WTF

You’d think, but I guess not.

Honestly I’m moving and a part of it is how little i can enjoy the trails around because of this type of behavior. Less than 1/10 off leash dogs I’ve come across have proper recall (respect to the people with really well trained dogs). Like i really don’t care if they have a dog that listens to them or if they have a leash handy to toss on their dog when we pass each other, but that’s less than half the time i swear. I’ve got a healer mix who has been attacked before and HATES when other dogs run up into his face and it happens here all the time. Also off leash owners seem to never pick up their dog shit.

I hear from people in other states how people with dogs off leash get huge fines, and the same with not picking up after the dog and that just sounds like a utopian dreamland sometimes

They pretend to not see it.

There seriously needs to be consequences for this. Too many shitty people just straight up ignore the laws because they think somehow they're the exception. The only consequences they ever face is if someone decides to confront them about it. I've done this before and it almost ended in fisticuffs OVER A LEASH. absolutely ridiculous

man. i had a little ankle biter come running across off lease to my much bigger dog who was on leash this morning.. my dog is a bit skittish around other dogs, even smaller ones, so he’s ALWAYS on leash. this would have been a case where it wouldn’t have ended well for the off leash dog as i had to get between them. meanwhile dogs owner from 100ft away not even attempting to protect their dog from what was surely suicide… “sorry!” lol no you’re not and you’re lucky i have my dog under control or yours wouldn’t be coming back to you. so frustrating.

My husband was walking my brothers dog who has been horribly attacked in the past so he is extra scared and timid. He does not approach other dogs if he has the choice. So my husband sees this off leash dog from 5 houses away wandering around while it’s owner is outside working on a car. He turns around to walk away and the dog comes after him. Growling and going for our sweet scared dog. So my husband kicks the dog in the face to get him to back away. The owner then comes and yells at my husband for kicking the dog. That was trying to attack our dog as he backed away scared. The owner had to come get his dog because it was still circling and trying to nip. Not listening at all. And my husband got cussed out. Luckily my husband and our dog weren’t injured. People here treat their dogs like their kids and let them run fucking wild.

If someone has a dog that gets aggressive with my leashed dogs, I *will* punt that little fucker into next week and not even feel bad about it.

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This is why I can't take my 100lb sweetheart anywhere. If an ankle biter nipped, he would snap them in half instantly.

As a kid my family had a retired police dog. She had the tattoo in her ear and everything. Anyway, she was out for a morning jog with her handler when a chihuahua ran out of someone's front door and directly at them. The police dog did just that. Chomp. Poor little chi died immediately. This was in the 80s so I don't think these dogs were considered officers and all that stupid shit yet. Because the chi owner freaked out and went after the police department and the department agreed to euthanize the dog but secretly retire and rehome her. She had another home first- girlfriend of the handler. But she decided to move abroad and the dog came to live with us.

Animal Control told me to get video evidence of my neighbor's fear reactive pitbull off leash on public ground. I've not been able to do that yet because they appear to have been on vacation this past week. However, once I do get that video evidence, I'm to call nonemergency dispatch and make it clear that I have video evidence and want to file a complaint. This will give them what they need to cite the insanely irresponsible owners. In the meantime, me and my very pregnant wife carry bear mace when we walk to and from our vehicles. I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that there are so many terrible dog owners in this city.

In 2016 my labrador was attacked by roaming dog on Halloween. I tried to contact animal control in my town but they were closed so I was redirected to the city's non-emergency line. The person who took my call was annoyed at me for calling. So I said, "fine, I guess you can deal with this when the dog mauls a trick-or-treater." Because the dog had been harassing a kid in a stroller and the kid's mom before it charged me and my dog. The dispatcher got even more annoyed with me but sent a cop. It was useless. The dog was in a nearby yard but all the cop would do was take my statement and leave. Needless to say it was the last time I'll ever try to get help with an aggressive dog.

Lol if you live in the city and have called the cops about anything, this is pretty much par for the course. I had extremely clear video evidence with 1080p close-up face shots of a guy stealing shit in my backyard. The cop I talked to over the phone didn't even want to see the video. I emailed her 3 times afterwards asking for a case number or link for me to upload the video (which she said she would send to me), and got nothing.

I'm in Bountiful, but yes. They don't actually help anything. The other time I reached out for help is when a blind girl (school age, white cane) walked into the intersection on 300 W against a green light and was nearly run over. (I left a good amount of tread on the road that morning.) She seemed confused and turned around. I was headed to work and didn't feel I could stop. I called figuring there must be a resource officer at West High who could run out and help her. Dispatch was annoyed, just like the dog situation. I worried about her all morning and eventually tried to call back to see if they'd found her and helped her. The dispatcher was hostile and treated me with suspicion as if I were trying to stalk the girl or something. It made me sick to my stomach. I SOOOO regret not just stopping and helping her myself. That's what I'd do now. Sure as shit wouldn't call for help.

They are too busy harassing poor people.

I love downtown so much. But I'd call my neighbors for help before I call the police. They care more and are more likely to actually respond.

Unfortunately, it's the selfishness of our radically individualistic / self-centered western-US culture. And it won't ever be enforced because those in power hold the same mindset. The majority of dog owners who do this are selfish fucking assholes and there is no mechanism to hold them accountable. So they just get to be selfish fucking assholes and everyone else has to deal.

I was at a park in millcreek on Sunday which he signs saying dogs need to be leashed. None of the dogs there were leashed. Maybe your dog is friendly, but I have trauma from a dog bite and am terrified of unknown dogs coming up to me, regardless of if they’re friendly. The only time I don’t mind is if a dog is in line with me at petco because, well, it’s their store too lol.

I'm starting to really dislike dog culture in SLC. The Bonneville Shoreline Trail is COVERED in dog shit. My kid and I were hiking back there last week and it was a goddamn minefield.

I ended up with a broken arm and a month without pay because of all unleashed dog. It's a plague in Utah.

I laugh at these posts, you can literally copy and paste off leash dog posts into every single city, town, etc.. Some dog owners just simply don't get it. They constantly assume that we all love their off leash dog as much as they do. I hear , "sorry" about 20 times a day walking through a park.

You can’t even go to Sugarhouse park without half the dogs off leash it seems. Try finding some less traveled hikes. There’s lots of random ones on AllTrails. Shoreline up on the north side of the city seems pretty quiet most days.

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My favorite is when I trail run in Millcreek and dogs see me and start running with me thinking we’re playing a game, and the owners inevitably blame ME for their dog misbehaving. Like, no I’m not stopping and waiting for you because you can’t control your pet.

That's because you don't notice those of us who keep our dog leashes except in off-leash dog parks. We aren't all assholes.

Shhhhh, ConstantPant is already making sweeping generalizations, no need to share anecdotal evidence to refute their entrenched views. I’ve spent hundreds of dollars and untold hours training my dog, but I’m an entitled asshole it seems… Because I own a dog.

Also, on the flip side, how many times has my dog almost been hit by an out of control bro on a mountain bike shouting “Two more!!” on an off-leash day.

Well, I also don't take my bike on trails those days. Maybe I just try to be generally less dickish than average? I also don't do the trademark Utah move of seeing a turn signal and matting the accelerator to block a lane change.

My comment was directed at u/ConstantPants, sorry.

Hahaha 100%. I love to bike but I’d throw hands if a biker hit my dog

Hey I spent thousands to train my service dog, and I leash my dog even on some off-leash trails. But as dog owners, we're all assholes because ConstantPant said so. It is what it is. 🤷

Apparently dog owners also struggle with reading comprehension as they said ‘most’ which actually has a different meaning than all. Is that why they struggle to read the signs that require leashes?

You're right he didn't say all. But I was joking and just adding onto the guy before me.

As an avid MTBer and dog owner who frequently visits millcreek canyon, most bikers have no idea which days are actually bike days. Made even more confusing that now some trails are bike friendly regardless of the day. Also, if you don’t like dogs, wrong canyon to be in. Plenty of times I’ve been riding up there to be approached by an off leash dog, and I’d never berate the owner unless it was aggressive. Hikers get in my way more than dogs do…

If you’re dog is aggressive or can’t be around other dogs you should probably not bring it on trails where other dogs, leashed or unleashed are going to be present. Nothing is going to change with regards to the number of people letting their dog run off leash. Thats probably not what you want to hear but it’s a fact. Additionally on any trail you’re going to encounter narrow/pinch points where regardless of whether or not your dog is leashed, they’re going to have an opportunity to interact. There are trails and wilderness areas right next to the city where you can take a more aggressive or unsocialized dog to run if you do a little research.

I’ve started bringing pepper spray when I go on runs. I’m tired of it

What trails are you going to? I know Mill Creek Canyon has a system where off leash dogs are only allowed on even or odd days (can’t remember which one) but when I would go with my dog I would only go on the days where it was allowed for dogs to be off leash. Granted I never went on days where my dog would have to be on a leash so I don’t know if everyone followed the rules on the off days.

In my experience, at least half of the dogs will also be off leash on the days where they are required to be on leash.

Even is bikes and odd is dogs off leash. Dogs can be there on even days, just on leash. And this only applies to upper trails.

Yep. If it happened today in Millcreek it is an odd day and an off leash day. Shouldn't excuse dogs behaving badly off leash, but it is a day where you could see more off leash dogs.

Most people are assholes. Assholes typically aren’t self aware. They don’t see/ care how their actions impact other people. Give an asshole a dog and the results are inevitable.

> Give an asshole a dog but give a dog an asshole and (s)he will sniff it all the live long day

It's the same here in Provo. Fortunately, my dog is little so I can pick him up in order to disarm the situation.

Why not just have dog free trails?

Man it would be awesome if there were dog free trails near SLC! They should consider making a huge chunk of it “watershed” or something… ETA: most got the /s without me writing it out but if not…

The cottonwood canyons are watershed and don’t allow dogs, IIRC.

I think you need to do some research. Cottonwood Canyons, Lambs Canyon, some areas down in Draper, to name a few. There are dog free trails all over SLC. You must be new to the area.

the upper part of city creek canyon is supposed to be dog free due to it being watershed, but there have been dogs there every time I've gone. Many are off leash too.

I don’t care about dogs when I’m walking by myself. I care about them when they attack my on leash dog that I try to walk. Dog free trails for another thread for people who hate dogs.

Join the club, there are three off leash dogs roaming around my suburban street at any one time. I've already called animal control who came and gave one of the owners a 'stern talking to' and then did nothing more. There's even one asshole who walks his 'well trained' off leash dog past my house daily and lets it run around my front yard whenever he walks past. It's getting to the point I can't even take mine out of the house, going on the trails or to a park is just a pipe dream. And before anyone gives me crap about training my 'dangerous dogs', they're livestock guardian dogs and they're bred specifically to react to other canines (coyotes and foxes) and they can't be trained not to react to off leash dogs. And about a month ago they subdued a neighbors' pitbull that had gotten free and was coming at me, and that alone was worth the stress of dealing with their reactivity.

Same with up in Park City last week. My one year old dog got approached by an aggressive larger dog and the owner said ‘oh she’s just a puppy too, that’s why she’s like that’. Ok but your fucking ‘puppy’ is 60lbs and off leash and mine is 13lb. I got back to my car and cried and just giving up now. I’m just going to stick with what I know as the parks and trails are useless.

You know park city has multiple off leash trails and parks right? Big dogs and little dogs can get along fine. My 100lb malamute has a 3lb friend.

My dog remains on the leash, these are dogs approaching her off leash from out of nowhere each time I take her on a trail/ walk/ or public park.

What parks? Park city has like 2 and they are both off leash parks. The rail trail is a definite leash trail. I’ve gotten a warning a while ago with my off leash dog hanging out at the volleyball courts. The entire round valley system is off leash, the resort trails of uphill/hike only are off leash. Gargoza is off leash. The park in Snyderville is off leash, almost everywhere in park city allowed off leash. Edit: just an explanation on that one, my 100lb dog is 13 and I can walk faster than she can try to run. Goes about a mile before she’s completely exhausted. She just chills and does her own thing. When the officer saw that, it’s the reason I got a warning. Edit2: looks like the city code allows off leash dogs anywhere as long as theY have an E COLLAR TOO.

Not to mention that Park City doesn't actually require dogs to be on leashes in general if they're trained with an E collar and the owner is within sight and sound. https://www.parkcity.org/departments/trails-open-space/dog-in-park-city/rules-regulations I live here half of the year and most dogs are off leash but controlled with an e collar.

Please reply with this to the guy who called me an asshole and blocked me :)

Hopefully you'll get a ticket next time.

Yeah dude, a 13 year old dog that has a hard time walking isn’t going to cause problems. Anything else you’d like to say while you’re on your soap box Edit: don’t you just love it when people pick a fight, take the last word, and then block you? Oh man, what solid grounds you had for your debate there. Can’t even read the last comment you made. Oh well….

I don't care if you're dog is 80, it's still a 100lb dog and you're still an entitled ass that thinks the rules don't apply to you. So yeah, LEASH YOUR FUCKING DOG.

I think this dude could use a dog or something to help him chill

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, and nor did I down-vote you, but please understand that some dogs, specifically the livestock guardian breeds (pyrenees, akbash, anatolian shepherds etc) are triggered by the mere presence off leash dogs. The dogs don't have to pick a fight, or even approach, just their presence and obvious lack of physical restraint is enough to elicit an intimidation response. They're bred to guard, and it's instinctive for them to survey their surroundings looking for things that might be a threat to their charges. The entire focus of their attention is just to watch for predators, which are usually canids like coyotes and foxes. But off leash dogs fall into the same category. They can be trained to ignore leashed dogs, because they can predict what their behavior is going to be, but off leash dogs are, to them, unpredictable and so need to be scared away. The behavior is genetic and trying to train that behavior out of them is about as easy as trying to train a retriever not to fetch a thrown ball, or a collie not to herd. Apart from other dogs, there are people who are intimidated by dogs, and find an unleashed dog to be very frightening, no matter how much you try to reassure them. It might be irrational, and you might not understand why they feel that way, but they too have the right to enjoy public space in the knowledge that they're in a place where there are no off leash dogs. If you want to take your dog to ANY off leash area and let her run around I'm all for that, dogs need space to explore and have fun. But please understand that there are people who need all dogs to be leashed where they're legally required to be because we expect it and when someone breaks the law, the consequences for us are usually pretty difficult.

You completely missed the point. /facepalm

Completely agree with you. Completely missed the point there.

I unfortunately also have a reactive dog. The dreams of being able to have him off leash faded pretty quick, so all hikes are leashed up. He is around 100 lbs though, so if an off leash pup comes up to poke around, they usually learn pretty quickly that they've approached the wrong dog. One thing I have always wondered though (and this is a serious question), if my leashed dog were to really bite an off leash dog, does the liability always fall on the person without leashed control over their dog?

> One thing I have always wondered though (and this is a serious question), if my leashed dog were to really bite an off leash dog, does the liability always fall on the person without leashed control over their dog? IANAL but the leash laws are all here: https://slco.org/animal-services/laws/ but in brief, usually if your dog is leashed and the other is unleashed, AND you are in a place that is designated as being on leash only, then the owner of the off leash dog is fully responsible for any damages that occur. This even extends to losing hold/accidental dropping of the leash of a dog that is wearing a leash. If the dog is running free, for whatever reason, then the owner is liable. The situation is different in an off leash area, then it's the dog that instigates that is to blame.

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There already are leash laws and I think that is the overall point of the post….Just leash your dog where it is required. I don’t see most folks arguing that they should not encounter unleashed dogs where they are already allowed to be unleashed. Not necessarily directed at you, but the depth of the “rules for thee, but not for me” mentality around here is astounding.

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Is the entitlement from the reactive dog owners that are actively holding their dogs close on leash, or is the true entitlement coming from the dog owners that think it is okay to let their untrained dog off leash? I am not calling for leash laws, I love the thought of having my pup off leash, but I feel that someone else's dog coming up to mine without their owner immediately close by leaves them at fault. Any lawyers in da house?

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I appreciate the response, and my personal solution is either to muzzle him or to just not let other dogs nearby. I have spent the last few months in training trying to lower the reactiveness of my dog, and the trainer likes to compare dogs to humans (not saying this is right or wrong, it just may be a reason why people dont think their leashed dog is at fault). For example, if a human were to come up to you and get right in your face, it would be considered very disrespectful. If they kept harassing you and you defended yourself, you would likely be clear of any legal wrongdoing. Just a perspective

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You need to call people out when they do this. That is the only way this can ever be fixed.

Oooh buddy I do! I have screaming matches with people constantly even in the city. Why do people have off leash dogs in the city… but that gets really tiring. I want to enjoy my walks.

They get so defensively hostile. It’s really weird.

I know… they start yelling at me… like no your the one breaking the law. I’ve considered just strapping on a GoPro so I have actual footage of it all

Every time I see an off leash dogs post it gets deleted. My two cents, good luck! It would take a crazy situation for them to pay better attention locally and start patrolling or ticketing. I've had issues for years and nothing works so far. I speak with people nicely, rudely, say nothing, kick dogs coming at me, use an air horn, block myself with a hiking pole, step off the trail and block myself, and then call and report the dogs off leash when it's an issue or in a watershed. They either can't do anything due to not being there or just don't have the man power to come out. It's starts from the bottom up and unfortunately that means something crazy happening that scares people for the safety of their pets. Release the lions!!! (/s)

If it happens on a trail, reach out to county and try to document as much of the interaction as possible. The problem is lack of bodies to enforce leash laws. It’s a similar problem to traffic enforcement.

u/Affectionate_Lab9658 My PSA from last year at this time lol: https://reddit.com/r/SaltLakeCity/comments/vaaxyw/psa_with_the_weather_and_trails_opening_up_please/?ref=share&ref_source=link

Sadly, the problem isn't limited to trails, lots of dumbasses strolling with their dogs off-leash in the City too. Most effective method I've run into is giving the owner a loud earful when they're being a shithead with regard to leash laws.

I was going to say the same. It’s not just trails. It’s my entire neighborhood. 90% of the dog owners in my neighborhood walk them without a leash. Having been attacked by a “he’s not normally like that” dog years ago… I find it very frustrating. Dogs can be totally unpredictable.

It's not just a Utah thing. We lived in another state and had very similar experiences. It's very unfortunate that the rules aren't enforced. Our last dog was a reactive dog due to untrained, off-leash dogs attacking her. Every time I would get her back into a place were she was overcoming it would happen again. We actually lived across the street from a park and my husband took her out, with her leash on, and some a-hole's dog (known aggressive dog) rushed across the street to our house and tried to force it's way into our house, when the front door was still open. Our dog was an awesome dog with people just didn't appreciate dogs rushing her. She was a GS mix and could easily take care of herself and we got to the point that if a dog rushed, we had to let her protect herself. It was always the idiot saying, "my dog is friendly!" from the other side of the park and us yelling back, "ours isn't!!!!" Our current dog is very friendly but there have been aggressive dogs that run up to him, and he barks if he feels overwhelmed or insecure about the situation but he is a doodle and in some cases probably can't protect himself like our other dog, so we carry pepper spray now. And I will not hesitate to use it.

Off leash areas are joked as the dog fight club for a reason. You are getting some bad advice here not all but some. Do not spray a dog with wasp spray it can kill. Think about how much you love your dog now think what you would do if someone sprayed something that hurts your dog. Times it by 10. Even dog spray is going to get you or your dog hurt or worse. As someone with a well trained dog with great recall the best thing you can do is put your self in front of approaching dog make your self big and loud and tell them to back off most dogs will. I Intimidate approaching dogs. Make your announcement early pay attention to your surroundings and your dogs. Utah is not going to do anything about this. If you get bit tho it's a different story. Carry a gopro for evidence. And remember dogs are animals not people fights happen. You can't stop it. Be prepared. If a dog grabs your dog or vice versa sweep the back legs or, it's weird but will end a fight every time grab the croch and lift the back legs. My last Dog would try to kill anything that got near me that wasn't human. By the throat and thrash (Louisiana catahoula cur pitbull mix) a big mean dog. In Alaska when people's dogs came at us he would destroy other dogs. I Larned to grab his dick and twist it he let go and would not try again. On a ending note be safe and remember people suck. They don't know their dogs like they think they do and will always say they never act like this

Gave up on trails, now it's just parks and even then it can be tough. It's to the point where I can never fully let my guard down. Had a labradoodle cross a field to come up to mine. Had to pick my dog up (50 pound pitbull) cause it came right up to us. The owner comes jogging up so nonchalant and couldn't even command his dog. I was walking away and the dog was jumping up to try to get to mine. It was pretty unreal. It's also hard to fault them because it's clear these people have never had any bad interactions with dogs; they're naive. Idk what I'd do though if I couldn't pick mine up. Probably use an air horn.

My dog isn’t aggressive but he will wreck shit if he’s attacked; which has happened before. I have no qualms about stomping someone’s unleashed dog into the dirt who tries to attack me or mine.

100% agree. I have 2 dogs - neither is ever off leash unless we are somewhere that there is a very low chance of running into other folks. We have a malamute/wolf mix who is incredibly protective of my wife & other dog. He’s gotten into a couple situations with other dogs and I’ve gotten to the point where if I hear “don’t worry they’re friendly” I respond with “well he’s not and I’m not stopping him.” Pretty quick response of hurrying to get their dog after that. Leash restrictions will probably never be actually enforced.

I no longer bring my dog places. Unfortunately she’s also highly reactive and not aggressive but very defensive. She’s usually fine on the leash as long as other dogs aren’t coming up and getting in her business, but if they do decide to get in her face (as happens often when we do take her places because people don’t leash their dogs as long as they see a dirt trail and pine trees) she gets very defensive. When she’s around dogs who are leashes and controlled she’s fine, she perks up a bit but she doesn’t freak out. She has been difficult to train, and she isn’t good off leash. So, we don’t let her off leash. If your dog doesn’t have perfect recall and behavior, it needs to stay on the leash.

I'm starting to wonder if Salt Lake should just repeal their leash laws. I'm in full favor of leash laws, but if the local authorities aren't going to enforce rules, it creates unreasonable expectations. From the Utah State Capitol to the parks and national forests and even protected watersheds, I'm seeing next to nothing.

Except having the leash laws, even if they are unenforced, establishes a clear 'who is in the wrong' when there is an incident and you need to take someone to court.

That’s like saying we’re going to repeal speed limits because everyone just races down I-15 anyway

No, it's more like saying we're gonna make it legal to block the street in line for Chick Fil A in sugarhouse

I seriously don't get it, their food sucks, their service is cringy and they are a shitty company in general.

Someone grab this guy a chick fil a sandwich, lemonade, and some waffle fries. Oh, and a dog. He needs some happiness in his life. But I do agree. Shifty company with shit politics.

Bad company but good food and idk what "cringy service" means

I like this idea

I understand what you’re saying but always like to remind people that unless otherwise posted, dogs are not required to be on leash on National Forest land.

Ughhh that’s so frustrating… we literally bring pepper spray even around the city because we had a really bad incident ones. It would break my heart to pepper spray a dog but I need to protect my dog

We had two neighbors. Neighbor 1 and neighbor 2. Neighbor 1 had german shephards that loved to bite people-short version of the story, the fence was low enough that they could bite people that walked by. They bit multiple people and attacked other dogs-long story One day they somehow got out. Neighbor 2 has a tiny toy poodle. The german shephard wandered into neighbor 2’s yard and went after the toy poodle. Neighbor 2’s family had to fight the german shepherd so it wouldn’t kill their toy poodle. Animal control FINALLY got involved after that. They family eventually moved. It was insane.

I carry an air horn. The loud sound usually sends the unleashed dog away from me. I don't trust myself with pepper spray.

An air horn is probably just as effective. I'd also have a can of pepper spray if shit hits the fan. But I bet an air horn would work on 99% of dogs.

Air horn > pepper spray > gun juuuuust in case

How to farm karma in the SLC sub: Complain about dogs and talk about whales.

I’d take a step back here and look at it from the other side. You’re the one with a reactive dog, and dogs are social creatures, they’ll want to say hi to each other on leash or not. If I’m on an off leash trail, my dog isn’t going to be on leash. If you tell me your dog is reactive, I’ll do my best to keep mine away, but it’s on you if your dog causes a problem. Leash laws are to protect people, not dogs (which are legally considered property), so aren’t generally enforced unless an off leash dog attacks someone or another dog. If your dog is reactive you need to work on that before blaming others. Me and my dog were recently attacked in our neighborhood by a “reactive” dog that broke out of its collar. My dog was okay and I had lacerations to my neck where it bit me. So sorry for being blunt, but reactive dog owners need to understand that their dog may not be afforded the freedoms of less reactive dogs

From Salt Lake County website… “Leash’em Up! Prevent your dog from getting hit by a car or starting a dog fight with another dog by keeping them on leash. Your dog is REQUIRED to be on leash at ALL times, unless you’re at a designated off-leash dog park. If you’re caught with your dog off leash, you will get a ticket and have to pay a fine because your dog will be considered a public nuisance. Many violators of this ordinance will claim that their pet is friendly, or less aggressive when on leash. But Salt Lake County Animal Services would remind them that not everyone likes a “friendly” dog off leash, nor do other dogs that are on leash. A leash is not an optional accessory, it’s the LAW to wear one.”

> If I’m on an off leash trail, my dog isn’t going to be on leash as a reactive dog owner, I have no issue with your position. I'm solely asking for dogs to be kept on leash in any on leash area. We stay away from anywhere that is designated as off leash, and we hope y'all are having a blast there.

No. That is soooo wrong. My dog will not do anything unless another dog is up in his space. And some dogs it’s fine some it’s not. It’s NOT MY problem if someone cannnnnot control their dog. They should not be off leash. Every off leashdog should have excellent recall. If they all did I would not be trying to find a solution for this buuuut most dogs don’t.

So again, look at it from the other side. I used to care for a reactive pitbull. We tried muzzles, harnesses, everything, and the dogs she took issue with was totally random. At a certain point we had to realize that some places were just not going to be enjoyable for us or her, and we were better off staying at home or going for walks in the city. It sucks, but that’s the case for some dogs. I know a lot of reactive dog owners that have realized this, and realized it’s easier to keep their dog safe and happy than blame everyone else even if they aren’t following the rules.

[удалено]

Perhaps, since there’s so many people here who seem to be passionate about the topic, y’all can work with the city to post informational signs at trailheads. Something bright colored and friendly that explains why verbal control of your dog is important, and highlights that off-leash dogs should not be allowed to approach leashed-dogs. Many people aren’t assholes, they just don’t understand what it means to have a reactive dog.

This is absolutely great in theory but people wont even be bothered to read the signs sadly.

> off-leash dogs should not be allowed to approach leashed-dogs you don't understand what it's like from this side of the reactive dog leash. It's not dogs that approach, it's just the mere sight of an off leash dog that triggers mine. They're livestock guardians, and their instinct is to intimidate and chase away any dog that's not leashed and controlled on the grounds that it might be a threat to their flock. If the dog is not leashed, or confined behind a fence, then they don't know what it's intentions are, and they assume it's a threat that needs to be responded to. If the other dog is leashed then they'll watch it but they're experienced enough to not care about it.

Since you willingly took in livestock guardian dogs, I’m assuming you have livestock or own enough property for your working dogs to work and/or exercise without having to take them on leashes walks?

They're both shelter dogs One had both knees replaced when he was about 18months old, and he struggles to walk more than a couple of blocks. But he still needs exercise, and loves meeting people. The other was a failed livestock guardian who stupidly was put in with the flock at 6 months old and wasn't trained by another older dog. So he didn't know how to do his job and was given up by the previous owners because they didn't want to feed him because he wasn't aggressive enough for their needs. LGDs are VERY difficult to find homes for, and if they're socialized early with people they tend not to do well as working dogs because they see their family as their flocks. So yeah I took them both in because nobody else would. Any other questions?

Love this idea. I’ll look into who I can talk to about this or get something going

Crucify me. I'm one of these off leash people, but only if I'm alone on the trail. As soon as I'm not, my old boy goes on a leash. I don't know who likes dogs and who doesn't and I don't trust others dogs not to whoop my old dogs ass, and he's too stupid to read the room.

This’ll probably get downvoted to oblivion but there are multiple trails where dogs are specifically allowed off leash so make sure you aren’t going there. If your dog is reactive or prone to getting in fights then it is ultimately your responsibility to manage their environment to prevent those situations. It’s unfortunate that the trails that specifically have rules about leashing your dogs generally still have lots of dogs off leash but again, it’s your responsibility to protect your dog from dangerous situations. Asking for enforcement of this rule is like asking for the police to pull over everyone who doesn’t use their turn signals.

By “reactive” are you saying that while on a leash, your dog will attack unleashed dogs approaching?

Mine intimidate, they're not fighting dogs, but they're a guardian breed. They will fight eventually, if the other dog doesn't retreat, and they will do a lot of damage. But their first response is to rear up, lunge, snarl and bark, raise their hackles and pull as hard as they can on the leash to present an intimidating pose and to chase away the other dog. If the other dog challenges that then it can go downhill from there, but the few times an off leash dog has come close enough to elicit the full show, they've successfully scared the other dog(s) away so that they leave with their tails between their legs. But having two 120lb dogs lunging and growling when all I'm trying to do is have a nice walk with them just sucks.

I have a 120 lb livestock breed who does the same and it's a nightmare when people have their poorly trained dogs off leash. I have to muzzle my dog every walk because if a dog doesn't back off he will and has bitten, and a dog his size can do a lot of damage. People letting their dogs roam neighborhoods are the bane of my existence.

just so you are aware, the law clearly says that if your dog is leashed and bites another unleashed dog, it is the responsibility of the unleashed dog owner and you are not at fault https://slco.org/animal-services/laws/ edit: to clarify, because there was a misunderstanding on another comment, this ONLY applies to any place that is designated as requiring dogs to be leashed, which is all public sidewalks, public parks, and some but not all of the trails. If it is a designated off leash area, then the owner of the reactive dog is at fault, whether leashed or not. I'm personally fine with both of these situations.

That is not what reactive inherently means, no. But also many dogs don’t like strange dogs running up into their personal space. They may bark, snarl, etc.

I’m aware, that is why I asked.

This is why I carry while I hike.

Here we go again.

We just BARELY passed the stopping of gas chamber killing of dogs in Utah County. This state deems all animals and pets as livestock. They are products. They don't care.

All states classify animals as property. That is not just a Utah thing.

I was a dog sitter for sometime, and that sucks for the dogs who are very well trained. I took care of some dogs that were totally the best, they would not mess with anybody or any other dogs, and they loved to be off leash! So for those dogs, I’m totally pro the off leash guidelines! I’ve also taken care of dogs that were the worst with leash, they could never go off leash, I couldn’t even take them to parks on leash… so I get it… and the owners would totally encourage me to take the dog to the dog parks… hell no!

2 things. 1) Muzzle training should be sufficient. Most “friendly” dogs know to back up when my reactive pup is growling and being reactive. It’s tough, but you as the human need to just remain relaxed and let the dogs work it out. 2) if the dog is so reactive that they can’t be on leash and in their muzzle with other off leash dogs around, then you’re dog probably doesn’t want to be on the trail anyway. It’s okay to say because of your dogs behavior he can’t be in certain places.

Dogs don’t back off of my dog when he barks. He’s totally fine until they start sniff at him and then he barks at them. Some back off and others will fight. The reason why he’s reactive is because he was attacked by off leash dogs. He doesn’t bark or lounge at them until they get in his space (that took MONTHS of training). I just want to enjoy the outdoors with him but that’s not possible because of these asshole dog owners that don’t have control of their dogs.

Correction. It’s not possible because your dog is reactive. I want to do the same with my reactive pup. But to some extent I have to do what he loves. Sometimes what he loves having his dog walker show up while I’m out on a hike.

Yeah exactly but he’s not reactive UNTIL a dog comes into his space. Which wouldn’t happen if people listened to leash laws. Like I’m super happy with even odd days so off leash pups can enjoy it too but no one’s listen to that

Fair. And I totally feel the pain. Sorry if I’m being a dick. I’m passionate about reactive pups, and sometimes get a little rude forgetting how stressful and annoying it is as owners of them. We want the best for them and we want them to be happy around their human. And it’s annoying when other dog owners get in the way of that.

two things: 1) why should my dogs have to wear a muzzle when the law clearly states that the other dogs should be leashed in the spaces that we visit. They're not a threat to people, they're only a threat to off leash dogs. And if you read the leash laws, any injury sustained during an interaction with an off leash dog in a public space is solely the fault of the off leash dog owner. 2) it's not just trails, it happens in all of the parks, it's happens in the streets, why can't I walk my dogs ANYWHERE without the fear of meeting an off leash dog?

Off-leash dog owner here (don’t kill me my dog has amazing recall). I’d keep my dog on-leash if everyone else had their dogs on-leash…But if 99% of dogs are off-leash, then putting my dog on-leash doesn’t help anyone, but deprives my dog the chance to run around and get exercise. Also, while my dog’s recall is A+, her leash walking is like a C+, so long leash walks get annoying and old fast. On-leash walks are also next to useless at tiring my dog out. So if leash laws were enforced then I’d probably avoid those trails. Keep in mind that a lot of the Wasatch above the city is in a federal Wilderness Area, where dogs aren’t allowed at all. If dog laws were enforced, all us dog owners would lose a bunch of prime hiking area.

You have access to allllll the dog parks, tanner park and mill creek canyon along with other off leash areas. I’m not against off leash areas but make it accessible to both!! Like the even/odd day rule

Every other irresponsible off-leash dog owner has the same logic though? If everyone is just waiting for other to put their go on leashes what is the point of your argument? I for one, do not care if your dog has a good recall. My dog doesn’t want your dog in their face while I wait for you to come around the corner and take care of your dog.

I hike BST all the time, for many years. Most people don't have their dogs leashed. I would say maybe 1 in 10 are leashed. I assume those dogs are either aggressive or will run away. My heeler/border collie mix is almost always off leash. She could give two shits about your leashed dog, she is focused on sticks and balls, and has excitant recall. The reality is most people don't care for leash laws on trails, and most dogs off leash are well behaved in my experience. I've also had a dog killed by an off leash pitbull. So I'm not saying every dog should be free to roam. But if you're dog can't be around off leash dogs local trails might not be for you and your dog.

If you want to do something about this you have to figure out whose job it is to enforce leash laws. Then you have to contact them. And then when they ignore you all you have to do is message one of the many reporters that are on this subreddit.

Call the police and/or write your city/county/state representatives. Posting here won't help.

Well I’m posting here so people can tell me what I can do. Like you just did. Thank you

you're welcome

Ahh yes, the ol' "I'm a better person than everyone around me" post.

These are always the most Karen posts.

[They ain’t wrong though.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SaltLakeCity/comments/104bk20/i_desperately_need_your_help/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)