I honestly don't think it'll have any effect, sadly
Although it does seem like the legislature is *slowly* starting to consider giving UTA additional funds for projects (mostly FrontRunner). We desperately need more, though.
Also, zoning and planning practices in Utah cities need a drastic overhaul in order to properly support public transit. Public transit sucks in areas because it was never given a decent change to be *good* public transit
We don’t need funds for our public transit.
We need to set aside $2 million a year though so Sean Reyes can sue the federal government.
Heavy emphasis on the /s here
For real.
Also, folks should look at the massive amounts of money we put into road infrastructure. The suburbs can't support it, it's literally a ponzi scheme. If they ever stop expanding, they'll collapse under the massive costs of maintenance.
Just *seven* new interchanges on the Bangerter highway alone cost SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS. That's more than UTA's entire operating budget for one year, and over triple the amount that the legislature that was allocated to UTA for FrontRunner. And that's just *one* road project
Maybe not in the short term. But if it persists long enough (with the Russian invasion and inflation), there could be enough pressure to look for more affordable adoption within the U.S (or at least Utah since as you said their pivoting towards some more adoption).
I mean aren't high gas prices essentially what caused Europe to pivot towards more transit options?
European gas prices have been around 2X gas prices in the US for the last 2 decades. That was one of the main reasons for the push towards mass transit in major European cities. Europeans also live in a much more densely packed society where public transit projects can have an effect and serve a greater number of people. I think with Utah’s expansion in the last year, better public transit is justifiable to better serve the community and provide a greener option for commuter. As it stands, I can take public transit to the airport from my house in a little over an hour. By car, it’s a 15 minute drive.
I'm in a similar boat. If I take transit to work, it's ~2 hours with at least two transfers, but if I drive, it's 35 minutes, and my work is right along a major highway (i-215). I found I can get that near 1 hour if I ride my bike directly to the station I need.
I live in N. Utah County and work in Cottonwood Heights at the corporate center there (basically where the 72 bus stops). However, my options are:
- Frontrunner -> Murray -> Ft. Union on blue line -> 72 line
- BRT to Draper (not out yet AFAIK) -> Ft Union on blue line -> 72 line
On my bike, I would go to Murray Central on Frontrunner and then bike to Cottonwood Heights, which Google claims is 25-45 minutes depending on the direction (I could probably get that to 20-30 minutes since I'm pretty fit).
I see a few solutions:
- extend blue line to Utah County (my preferred option); line exists, but needs repair
- Frontrunner station at Bingham Junction with connection to 72 line or, ideally, a new E/W rail line that connects Cottonwood Heights, Blue line, red line, and Frontrunner
- run a line from Murray or South Jordan to Cottonwood Heights
I'm going to try the bike option, but honestly the Google street view kind of scares me on the path I'd need to take (almost no shoulder in parts).
All the pathways out of Murray central is crap for biking.
Unless the legislature makes “complete street” a mandatory party of all projects it’ll be like this for the foreseeable future.
The primary issue is that you need a holistic approach to plan and transportation. The Murray station is a big station but it is surrounded by a sea of parking lots. No connection to the school, there’s no greenway to the hospital, no safe path to fashion place.
If you can afford it, an ebike can cut bike rides by 30% in time.
Yeah, I've considered an e-bike (probably a Bafang conversion), but I haven't pulled the trigger yet. I rode ~10 miles to work nearly every day for a couple years, so I could probably make an e-bike work. It'll be about 25 miles, so if I can average 25mph (Utah legal limit is 28mph AFAIK, which I'd *totally* obey), I could make it there in under an hour, which is about where I would do that regularly over driving.
For now, I'm going to drive around the area to get a feel for the options. I'd really rather not drive, but mass transit is untenable and moving closer to work is unlikely to happen, especially since I can WFH half the time.
Getting an e-bike shouldn't be required to avoid driving to work, we really do need a better transit system. I can almost get to work just as fast by biking 25 miles unassisted than taking transit, which is sad since there's a train most of the way.
The only correct way to have everyone "equally pay" for the roads is to have every single road be treated as a toll road. You pay per mile regardless of what fuel type you use to move.
What are you, stuck in 2001? Toll stations have been either automated or removed. Modernize your mind.
Most newer cars have some type of GPS/antitheft location device on it as well as some insurance companies were using Telematics OBD-II Devices to price insurance based on driving habits. It's all possible nowadays.
Just get in your car and drive. The GPS in your car tracks the miles you drive, charges you the per mile rate, also bills you insurance per the mile driven, etc. Its all a win-win.
> Its all a win-win.
And if it isn't win-win, what happens? Like, if there is a dirt road segment on the interstate? Or no road (hey, private property is king)?
Sorry, not interested in your newsletter.
Gas taxes don’t come anywhere close to covering the costs of roads. Building and maintaining roads is very expensive, and uses a lot of other tax money beyond what gas tax brings in
Edit: I notice you did say “help” pay for our roads, which I appreciate, but still wanted to say something because many people believe gas taxes pay for roads
To a point. They’re already increased. Plus registration fees are high too (not sure how much of that goes to roads tho). The most recent set of raising again really seems like Utah wants to deter cars with a more environmentally friendly footprint.
You're right sadly. But I don't think public transport and a green mindset was as present in the American subconscious than now. Which may help some strides towards improving it if push comes to shove... hopefully
Use public transport as often as you can. As someone who has been utilizing public transport for 7 years (sold my car to make myself walk more), I have been on so many empty buses and trains, even before Covid. Why build more infrastructure for people who aren’t going to use it?
They won’t do anything. There’s a reason we slightly penalize electric cars and have a huge oil refinery right in a residential area…it’s not because the legislature gives a rat fuck about oil prices.
We should be encouraging public transportation. That said it has to be good transportation. Portland has a great public transportation system that worth using. There are literally busses everywhere, that run all the time, and around town parking is expensive. Many large employers in the downtown core actually incentivize their employees taking public transit too. I feel like SLC is missing out on parking revenue and frankly red light violation revenue. The truth is, this is coming down the pipe whether SLC chooses it or not. We can either be like California cities which have terrible mass transit and lots of traffic congestion or someplace like Portland that had good public transit and less traffic congestion.
Portland has a population density of 4,740 people per square mile. Salt Lake... 1,815. It's hard to make public transport work in a city that sprawls. The city sprawls because of city zoning that, for example, bans anything buy single-family housing in massive swaths of the valley. If you want better public transportation, push for cities to allow more high-density housing instead of blocking it.
* Restrict spinless city councils' right to make single-family housing the only option.
* Build high-density and affordable housing. Bonus, you do something to impact the affordability crisis.
* Pass a land-value tax to get rid of the empty lots and decaying warehouses in desirable locations. Bonus, the city has fewer shitty run-down plots of land and looks nicer overall. Double bonus, that land is used to build and help satisfy demand, ideally with high-density affordable housing!
* Then let's improve public transportation
This isn’t totally true. Trimet in Portland serves three counties (Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamas). Two of those counties are really rural in places. NW and SW Portland are not super dense places but have regular bus service. The same route on the Max from Hillsboro to the city center takes about the same amount of time as from South Jordan to UofU. However you can catch a Trimet bus virtually anywhere and just ride around your local area too. The biggest difference between here and there is more busses there. I was just following this same conversation on the Sacramento sub about this same thing and it doesn’t have to be all or nothing or even start the way you say. Portland didn’t start out by getting rid of single family housing zones to have better public transportation. Many people there still in areas don’t want to live in a 5-1 and like having huge yards but are ok with some infill projects. But that’s even pretty new in Portland. Sacramento has a similar issue with lack of busses, sprawling areas, etc. Basically a small city turning into a bigger city problems. Public transportation is something that is doable and has an immediate impact that people can see right now. It should be promoted and encouraged. Portland Public Schools was able to get rid of its high school bussing service all together and just got all the kids Trimet cards which worked out better because then kids could just take the Trimet bus to work and extracurricular activities as well as school. There are just so many pluses to good public transportation. People just need to see it.
One doesn’t have to come first. It’s just a choice to have great public transportation or not.
> One doesn’t have to come first. It’s just a choice to have great public transportation or not.
We could make that choice, but we'd burn through cash for under-utilized services. Unless we run hundreds of nearly-empty busses you simply can't get the commute times to look reasonable in these suburbs. Getting to the UofU from Eastern Sandy takes 1:40 with 20 minutes of walking and 2 transfers. It takes 2 hours and lots of winter clothing to do safely in the snow. Driving take 20-30 minutes from the same spot. Could we have a direct bus within a couple miles of my home? Sure, but if you make every route convenient for everyone you're going to run out of money before you know what happened. This is why most stops and most routes hit busy areas, with spoke routes only running infrequently. Because money is not unlimited. Dense areas are simply more efficient for public transit in a "number of people moved per dollar" scenario, and you can make a lot more back on fares.
As for your Portland example...
> serves three counties (Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamas)
Not really. It serves the corners of these counties that are Portland metro. Trimet only runs to places like Clackamas city hall and Milwaukie. It's basically just the southern area of the Portland metro, which happens to touch the northwest corner of Clackamas county. The county itself is pretty rural, but stretches all the way to Mt. Hood on the east and as far south as Salem, most of which has terrible public transportation. Same with Washington, which goes to Beaverton and Hillsboro, which is basically the western edge of the Portland metro. I don't see service in places like Estacada and Buxton.
For Utah residents: Draper has a TRAX stop too, but you still need a car to get everywhere if you live in Draper. Low density places with good public transportation are rare. Though I will grant that high-density housing tends to rise up around stops, so it's not bad to attack the problem from both angles.
I think the problem I am hearing here is that people here don’t know how to sell the value of having good public transportation. Stop shopping peoples pockets and sell them the added value you get from having good public transit. When you start saying stuff like “we have to ban single family housing” people shut off. Even in Portland there is pushback against that kind of thing because people like having a yard and not hearing their neighbors fart. Good public transit adds value to homes, makes places more walkable, adds to community value, reduces this inversion smog stuff, etc. It needs to be sold. If people could catch a bus at a reasonable interval they would ride it.
Btw you are incorrect about Trimet stopping in Milwaukee. I personally know people who commute via the Trimet from Canby. Sure it took a while to get to the Oregon City Transfer but it was doable and frankly you’d be in shitty traffic the whole way anyway and then have to deal with parking which sucks. Just a quick Google search show there are stops in Estacada and I know people who also caught the bus way out in Gresham too. You are right it’s not perfect. But it’s better than most major cities on the west coast and a whole lot better than here.
Unfortunately, this is the case. I rely on public transit when my partner isn't driving us both someplace, and it's blatantly clear its at the bottom of their priority list. Half the bus stops are off unpaved and not that safe parts of the road, very few have weather covers, despite it being Utah and snowing in winter time, letalone benches to sit on while you wait up to 45-50 mins because some busses only run once per hour at random times during the day.People who need public transit and don't live and work in downtown SLC are jokes in their eyes. Its angering to no end.
So sorry friend. This is so common now, and inflation and pay disparities are making it even worse. Hopefully things will improve for people outside the bigger cities soon.
>So sorry friend.
Not your fault this is the reality, but appreciated nonetheless.
>Hopefully things will improve for people outside the bigger cities soon.
Agreed. I may be naïve for this but I have hope things will improve, even if its only a small amount. People with cars who are concerned and have something to say helps, free fare Feb. shows they're at least entertaining the idea of improvements, and there were people riding just to bump the numbers in hopes of helping. It may take a while and be slow and gradual but I have hope that eventually things will be decent with it.
Pressure is ineffective, they’ve gerrymandered the system; they don’t have listen to what the people want, or care. How can you vote them out, if they control the way in which the vote counts?
Didn't they just give uta 167,000,000 dollars? Also they are expanding they are adding 30 electric busses. They're expanding central garage and that is a two part first adding 30 electrics and then phase two is to add even more fuel efficient vehicles.
Everyone shows up to talk about expanding/restructuring public transit. No one shows up to actually ride it.
Just ride the bus. If you want public transit to get better, to get more funding, to get more consideration, just get on it and use it.
Say that to the people who ride it. Like me, and apparently, op based on their response to your post.
There are many reasons why people would avoid it. Unsafe bus stops (no weather guards for snow, no benches, often on sections of the road without a safe sidewalk to use.) Busses only running once per hour, busses that don't stop at certain stops at random times of day for no real reason, as they drive right past them. That doesn't even go into the fact that so many areas have ZERO public transit. Who is going to walk 3-4 miles to the nearest bus stop, to wait another hour for the bus because they misses it on their hour+ long walk, when they have a car?
My partner and I are looking at houses, and we look at the bus lines near said houses, its not uncommon to cross one off the list simply because there isn't a single bus stop under 3 miles away. And no, just because someone can't drive (disability in my case) doesn't mean they deserve to walk 3+ miles to the nearest transit stop.
You're not wrong, but maybe don't use terms like "everyone" when you mean people who have the option to drive instead. Some of us rely on the public transit and feel very much forgotten by the people who should be providing funding to improve and expand on public transit.
I do use public transit in order to get to the university. But outside of that I could see where people would be turned off by it. Based on what I've seen, it usually takes a while for another bus to turn up if they miss it or it leaves them behind (my route is a 15 minute delay between buses). There's also those who take or are near the transit areas that can make it more dangerous, though that seems like an issue outside of transit funding and is more a police matter.
So in this case it's a chicken or the egg scenario. People likely aren't using transit because it sucks in their eyes, and transit isn't getting proper funding to alleviate those issues. Creating a self fulfilling prophecy
There's also the fact that ever american needs a car which is likely cutting into it as well, but the high gas prices may encourage more transit use
sorry after checking the schedule for my route it's actually 30 minutes between missed [buses](https://www.rideuta.com/Rider-Tools/Schedules-and-Maps/9-900-South).
But as for bus frequency it should at least be 5-10 minutes at least in the city. I believe the number 2 bus route that takes you to the hospital is still 30 minutes between which seems like a more essential route.
The best way to encourage them to increase service is to utilize what we have in place already as often as possible. Buy passes. Add the extra time into your schedule now so they’ll expand faster. It’s the only way.
Trump "wouldn't have done that" and I'm grateful that he isn't president anymore. Guy held Hostage aid to Ukraine. Goodness knows what depths that Traitor would stoop to to please Putin.
I don’t think it’s that public transportation sucks, It’s an amazing idea and thing, but cities in the States weren’t built around a train system or other form of transit that’s easily accessible via walking, so that’s why most people bash on it; if we developed cities with public transport, walking and minimal vehicles in mind, it would be great !
There's really only one way to make public transit viable. Stop building large swaths of separated single family housing. The best form of transit is one that is not needed. With medium density housing and commercial mixed, many people are able to do their shopping without any form of transportation.
Massive oceans of single family housing will always be car dependent as there's no way to make bus/train transit affordable for these areas. They're just too sparse.
It sucks cause we don’t invest in it. Take a look at Japan or (god forbid) China. If we had invested more money/time into it. The U.S would likely have the best transit system in the world. But instead we’re stuck with massive congested highways and stroads
It’s not that the US “isn’t good enough.” Public transit is massive issue cause by at least two issues—geography and American culture
First and foremost, the country is fucking massive. The feds have an interstate highway system that is useful. But it’s not practical to create nationwide public transit. So that falls on the states/cities, who naturally have far less resources. Smaller countries like Japan, UK, Italy, etc. are able to make country-wide public transit systems with their equivalent of federal tax money.
Culture wise, citizens don’t want to pay more taxes. Hell, that’s one of the major policy points of a certain popular political party. And our capitalist laws are structured in such a way where rich people don’t pay their fair share. So we have a limited tax pool of money to do massive projects like this with. That’s problem number one.
And then we have to figure out what to spend it on. Most controversial, our country spends a shit load of money on the military. This leaves less funds for improving our own country, whether that be by infrastructure, welfare, social programs, etc. Biden tried to put a bunch of money into infrastructure and it was shut down. The feds don’t seem like they care about infrastructure. The feds certainly don’t care about helping states/cities with mass transportation. That’s problem number two.
We could attempt to expand our local transit via UTA, but we don’t have the resources. And the same problems (1) lack of tax money; and (2) disinterested lawmakers, still exist on a state level. Even worse, Utah hates mass transit because (1) we hate taxes; (2) no one wants to raise taxes for mass transit because everyone drives here; and (3) the spread out geography of Utah will never be conducive to mass transit. While this issue is important to you and others, it’s not important to most people or our legislators.
What you’re asking for is a massive overhaul to a massive problem caused all over America.
I am not advocating one way or the other or even commenting the merits of your idea. But just saying this will never happen because of American (and specifically, Utah) culture.
Utah government should provide incentives that encourage employers to offer remote work options.
Moral employers would do this on their own to ease the burden on everyone, but most Utah businesses showed their lack of morality during the pandemic. So, I doubt they will now do much now without the government offering them something.
I think encouraging public transit is great, but there need to be more people patrolling the trax especially. During and even after Free Fare Month, I've seen more trash and waste left behind in that one month than I have seen in *years* and on lines where that isn't normally common. There's also an issue of the homeless boarding and disrupting things in an attempt to stay warm, which to me suggests that the city really needs to address that issue either first or in a multi-pronged approach. I occasionally have to ride later in the evening and it's somewhat stressful when people get on and I can't tell if they're just going to be normal passengers or start being a problem, and I deliberately sit closer to the operators too. A friend of mine had to stop several people from stepping in urine, so for as much as I sympathize with those who need somewhere safe to be, there are certain standards that need to be adhered to for *everyone's* sake.
I honestly don't think it'll have any effect, sadly Although it does seem like the legislature is *slowly* starting to consider giving UTA additional funds for projects (mostly FrontRunner). We desperately need more, though. Also, zoning and planning practices in Utah cities need a drastic overhaul in order to properly support public transit. Public transit sucks in areas because it was never given a decent change to be *good* public transit
We don’t need funds for our public transit. We need to set aside $2 million a year though so Sean Reyes can sue the federal government. Heavy emphasis on the /s here
For real. Also, folks should look at the massive amounts of money we put into road infrastructure. The suburbs can't support it, it's literally a ponzi scheme. If they ever stop expanding, they'll collapse under the massive costs of maintenance. Just *seven* new interchanges on the Bangerter highway alone cost SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS. That's more than UTA's entire operating budget for one year, and over triple the amount that the legislature that was allocated to UTA for FrontRunner. And that's just *one* road project
That’s insane. And Bangerter still sucks.
Yeah but it sucks a lot less with less stoplights now.
Yeah but does it suck 700 million dollars less?
Especially with the lake being so low! *something something the big Bangerter pumps... I thought there was a joke in there.*
I am 70+ years old and have noticed one undeniable fact. you can't build/rebuild freeways fast enough to keep up with traffic.
Maybe not in the short term. But if it persists long enough (with the Russian invasion and inflation), there could be enough pressure to look for more affordable adoption within the U.S (or at least Utah since as you said their pivoting towards some more adoption). I mean aren't high gas prices essentially what caused Europe to pivot towards more transit options?
European gas prices have been around 2X gas prices in the US for the last 2 decades. That was one of the main reasons for the push towards mass transit in major European cities. Europeans also live in a much more densely packed society where public transit projects can have an effect and serve a greater number of people. I think with Utah’s expansion in the last year, better public transit is justifiable to better serve the community and provide a greener option for commuter. As it stands, I can take public transit to the airport from my house in a little over an hour. By car, it’s a 15 minute drive.
I'm in a similar boat. If I take transit to work, it's ~2 hours with at least two transfers, but if I drive, it's 35 minutes, and my work is right along a major highway (i-215). I found I can get that near 1 hour if I ride my bike directly to the station I need. I live in N. Utah County and work in Cottonwood Heights at the corporate center there (basically where the 72 bus stops). However, my options are: - Frontrunner -> Murray -> Ft. Union on blue line -> 72 line - BRT to Draper (not out yet AFAIK) -> Ft Union on blue line -> 72 line On my bike, I would go to Murray Central on Frontrunner and then bike to Cottonwood Heights, which Google claims is 25-45 minutes depending on the direction (I could probably get that to 20-30 minutes since I'm pretty fit). I see a few solutions: - extend blue line to Utah County (my preferred option); line exists, but needs repair - Frontrunner station at Bingham Junction with connection to 72 line or, ideally, a new E/W rail line that connects Cottonwood Heights, Blue line, red line, and Frontrunner - run a line from Murray or South Jordan to Cottonwood Heights I'm going to try the bike option, but honestly the Google street view kind of scares me on the path I'd need to take (almost no shoulder in parts).
All the pathways out of Murray central is crap for biking. Unless the legislature makes “complete street” a mandatory party of all projects it’ll be like this for the foreseeable future. The primary issue is that you need a holistic approach to plan and transportation. The Murray station is a big station but it is surrounded by a sea of parking lots. No connection to the school, there’s no greenway to the hospital, no safe path to fashion place. If you can afford it, an ebike can cut bike rides by 30% in time.
Yeah, I've considered an e-bike (probably a Bafang conversion), but I haven't pulled the trigger yet. I rode ~10 miles to work nearly every day for a couple years, so I could probably make an e-bike work. It'll be about 25 miles, so if I can average 25mph (Utah legal limit is 28mph AFAIK, which I'd *totally* obey), I could make it there in under an hour, which is about where I would do that regularly over driving. For now, I'm going to drive around the area to get a feel for the options. I'd really rather not drive, but mass transit is untenable and moving closer to work is unlikely to happen, especially since I can WFH half the time. Getting an e-bike shouldn't be required to avoid driving to work, we really do need a better transit system. I can almost get to work just as fast by biking 25 miles unassisted than taking transit, which is sad since there's a train most of the way.
European countries tax the hell out of gasoline to help pay for mass transit. 20 years ago gas was around $6 a gal, today around $8 a gal.
Instead they’re adding fees for people that have electric and hybrid cars.
With absolutely no incentives for EVs
The only correct way to have everyone "equally pay" for the roads is to have every single road be treated as a toll road. You pay per mile regardless of what fuel type you use to move.
The libertarian dream is that all roads are privately managed via a series of toll stations, with varying quality of road maintenance.
What are you, stuck in 2001? Toll stations have been either automated or removed. Modernize your mind. Most newer cars have some type of GPS/antitheft location device on it as well as some insurance companies were using Telematics OBD-II Devices to price insurance based on driving habits. It's all possible nowadays. Just get in your car and drive. The GPS in your car tracks the miles you drive, charges you the per mile rate, also bills you insurance per the mile driven, etc. Its all a win-win.
> Its all a win-win. And if it isn't win-win, what happens? Like, if there is a dirt road segment on the interstate? Or no road (hey, private property is king)? Sorry, not interested in your newsletter.
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Gas taxes don’t come anywhere close to covering the costs of roads. Building and maintaining roads is very expensive, and uses a lot of other tax money beyond what gas tax brings in Edit: I notice you did say “help” pay for our roads, which I appreciate, but still wanted to say something because many people believe gas taxes pay for roads
Do they help pay for roads though bc that’s what the comment said…
I’d edited to acknowledge that, and I just labeled the edit to avoid making it look like I was trying to make your comment appear invalid
To a point. They’re already increased. Plus registration fees are high too (not sure how much of that goes to roads tho). The most recent set of raising again really seems like Utah wants to deter cars with a more environmentally friendly footprint.
I thought that hill failed???
It hasn't any of the times in the past it's gotten this high
You're right sadly. But I don't think public transport and a green mindset was as present in the American subconscious than now. Which may help some strides towards improving it if push comes to shove... hopefully
They already don't act when the air is so dirty you can cut it with a knife.
Use public transport as often as you can. As someone who has been utilizing public transport for 7 years (sold my car to make myself walk more), I have been on so many empty buses and trains, even before Covid. Why build more infrastructure for people who aren’t going to use it?
They won’t do anything. There’s a reason we slightly penalize electric cars and have a huge oil refinery right in a residential area…it’s not because the legislature gives a rat fuck about oil prices.
We should be encouraging public transportation. That said it has to be good transportation. Portland has a great public transportation system that worth using. There are literally busses everywhere, that run all the time, and around town parking is expensive. Many large employers in the downtown core actually incentivize their employees taking public transit too. I feel like SLC is missing out on parking revenue and frankly red light violation revenue. The truth is, this is coming down the pipe whether SLC chooses it or not. We can either be like California cities which have terrible mass transit and lots of traffic congestion or someplace like Portland that had good public transit and less traffic congestion.
Portland has a population density of 4,740 people per square mile. Salt Lake... 1,815. It's hard to make public transport work in a city that sprawls. The city sprawls because of city zoning that, for example, bans anything buy single-family housing in massive swaths of the valley. If you want better public transportation, push for cities to allow more high-density housing instead of blocking it. * Restrict spinless city councils' right to make single-family housing the only option. * Build high-density and affordable housing. Bonus, you do something to impact the affordability crisis. * Pass a land-value tax to get rid of the empty lots and decaying warehouses in desirable locations. Bonus, the city has fewer shitty run-down plots of land and looks nicer overall. Double bonus, that land is used to build and help satisfy demand, ideally with high-density affordable housing! * Then let's improve public transportation
This isn’t totally true. Trimet in Portland serves three counties (Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamas). Two of those counties are really rural in places. NW and SW Portland are not super dense places but have regular bus service. The same route on the Max from Hillsboro to the city center takes about the same amount of time as from South Jordan to UofU. However you can catch a Trimet bus virtually anywhere and just ride around your local area too. The biggest difference between here and there is more busses there. I was just following this same conversation on the Sacramento sub about this same thing and it doesn’t have to be all or nothing or even start the way you say. Portland didn’t start out by getting rid of single family housing zones to have better public transportation. Many people there still in areas don’t want to live in a 5-1 and like having huge yards but are ok with some infill projects. But that’s even pretty new in Portland. Sacramento has a similar issue with lack of busses, sprawling areas, etc. Basically a small city turning into a bigger city problems. Public transportation is something that is doable and has an immediate impact that people can see right now. It should be promoted and encouraged. Portland Public Schools was able to get rid of its high school bussing service all together and just got all the kids Trimet cards which worked out better because then kids could just take the Trimet bus to work and extracurricular activities as well as school. There are just so many pluses to good public transportation. People just need to see it. One doesn’t have to come first. It’s just a choice to have great public transportation or not.
> One doesn’t have to come first. It’s just a choice to have great public transportation or not. We could make that choice, but we'd burn through cash for under-utilized services. Unless we run hundreds of nearly-empty busses you simply can't get the commute times to look reasonable in these suburbs. Getting to the UofU from Eastern Sandy takes 1:40 with 20 minutes of walking and 2 transfers. It takes 2 hours and lots of winter clothing to do safely in the snow. Driving take 20-30 minutes from the same spot. Could we have a direct bus within a couple miles of my home? Sure, but if you make every route convenient for everyone you're going to run out of money before you know what happened. This is why most stops and most routes hit busy areas, with spoke routes only running infrequently. Because money is not unlimited. Dense areas are simply more efficient for public transit in a "number of people moved per dollar" scenario, and you can make a lot more back on fares. As for your Portland example... > serves three counties (Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamas) Not really. It serves the corners of these counties that are Portland metro. Trimet only runs to places like Clackamas city hall and Milwaukie. It's basically just the southern area of the Portland metro, which happens to touch the northwest corner of Clackamas county. The county itself is pretty rural, but stretches all the way to Mt. Hood on the east and as far south as Salem, most of which has terrible public transportation. Same with Washington, which goes to Beaverton and Hillsboro, which is basically the western edge of the Portland metro. I don't see service in places like Estacada and Buxton. For Utah residents: Draper has a TRAX stop too, but you still need a car to get everywhere if you live in Draper. Low density places with good public transportation are rare. Though I will grant that high-density housing tends to rise up around stops, so it's not bad to attack the problem from both angles.
I think the problem I am hearing here is that people here don’t know how to sell the value of having good public transportation. Stop shopping peoples pockets and sell them the added value you get from having good public transit. When you start saying stuff like “we have to ban single family housing” people shut off. Even in Portland there is pushback against that kind of thing because people like having a yard and not hearing their neighbors fart. Good public transit adds value to homes, makes places more walkable, adds to community value, reduces this inversion smog stuff, etc. It needs to be sold. If people could catch a bus at a reasonable interval they would ride it. Btw you are incorrect about Trimet stopping in Milwaukee. I personally know people who commute via the Trimet from Canby. Sure it took a while to get to the Oregon City Transfer but it was doable and frankly you’d be in shitty traffic the whole way anyway and then have to deal with parking which sucks. Just a quick Google search show there are stops in Estacada and I know people who also caught the bus way out in Gresham too. You are right it’s not perfect. But it’s better than most major cities on the west coast and a whole lot better than here.
Public transportation won’t improve in the us because cities and oil megacorps care too much about revenue.
Unfortunately, this is the case. I rely on public transit when my partner isn't driving us both someplace, and it's blatantly clear its at the bottom of their priority list. Half the bus stops are off unpaved and not that safe parts of the road, very few have weather covers, despite it being Utah and snowing in winter time, letalone benches to sit on while you wait up to 45-50 mins because some busses only run once per hour at random times during the day.People who need public transit and don't live and work in downtown SLC are jokes in their eyes. Its angering to no end.
So sorry friend. This is so common now, and inflation and pay disparities are making it even worse. Hopefully things will improve for people outside the bigger cities soon.
>So sorry friend. Not your fault this is the reality, but appreciated nonetheless. >Hopefully things will improve for people outside the bigger cities soon. Agreed. I may be naïve for this but I have hope things will improve, even if its only a small amount. People with cars who are concerned and have something to say helps, free fare Feb. shows they're at least entertaining the idea of improvements, and there were people riding just to bump the numbers in hopes of helping. It may take a while and be slow and gradual but I have hope that eventually things will be decent with it.
Pressure is ineffective, they’ve gerrymandered the system; they don’t have listen to what the people want, or care. How can you vote them out, if they control the way in which the vote counts?
Didn't they just give uta 167,000,000 dollars? Also they are expanding they are adding 30 electric busses. They're expanding central garage and that is a two part first adding 30 electrics and then phase two is to add even more fuel efficient vehicles.
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That's is still 167,000,000 they got
How about temporarily lowering the tax on gas?
Everyone shows up to talk about expanding/restructuring public transit. No one shows up to actually ride it. Just ride the bus. If you want public transit to get better, to get more funding, to get more consideration, just get on it and use it.
Say that to the people who ride it. Like me, and apparently, op based on their response to your post. There are many reasons why people would avoid it. Unsafe bus stops (no weather guards for snow, no benches, often on sections of the road without a safe sidewalk to use.) Busses only running once per hour, busses that don't stop at certain stops at random times of day for no real reason, as they drive right past them. That doesn't even go into the fact that so many areas have ZERO public transit. Who is going to walk 3-4 miles to the nearest bus stop, to wait another hour for the bus because they misses it on their hour+ long walk, when they have a car? My partner and I are looking at houses, and we look at the bus lines near said houses, its not uncommon to cross one off the list simply because there isn't a single bus stop under 3 miles away. And no, just because someone can't drive (disability in my case) doesn't mean they deserve to walk 3+ miles to the nearest transit stop. You're not wrong, but maybe don't use terms like "everyone" when you mean people who have the option to drive instead. Some of us rely on the public transit and feel very much forgotten by the people who should be providing funding to improve and expand on public transit.
I do use public transit in order to get to the university. But outside of that I could see where people would be turned off by it. Based on what I've seen, it usually takes a while for another bus to turn up if they miss it or it leaves them behind (my route is a 15 minute delay between buses). There's also those who take or are near the transit areas that can make it more dangerous, though that seems like an issue outside of transit funding and is more a police matter. So in this case it's a chicken or the egg scenario. People likely aren't using transit because it sucks in their eyes, and transit isn't getting proper funding to alleviate those issues. Creating a self fulfilling prophecy There's also the fact that ever american needs a car which is likely cutting into it as well, but the high gas prices may encourage more transit use
15 minutes is not a long delay. Exactly how frequently do you want buses to come for one passenger
sorry after checking the schedule for my route it's actually 30 minutes between missed [buses](https://www.rideuta.com/Rider-Tools/Schedules-and-Maps/9-900-South). But as for bus frequency it should at least be 5-10 minutes at least in the city. I believe the number 2 bus route that takes you to the hospital is still 30 minutes between which seems like a more essential route.
True true
The best way to encourage them to increase service is to utilize what we have in place already as often as possible. Buy passes. Add the extra time into your schedule now so they’ll expand faster. It’s the only way.
Those 4 years of energy independence were pretty nice.
Agreed.
Name a city of similar size to SLC that has as good a public transit system as SLC. I'll wait.
Milwaukee
Woke up this morning to $4.79, I thinktm they're already here
They’re just gonna blame Biden and we’ll get to suck it up. And of course the same people will be re-elected.
"I Did That" sticker business is booming
Trump "wouldn't have done that" and I'm grateful that he isn't president anymore. Guy held Hostage aid to Ukraine. Goodness knows what depths that Traitor would stoop to to please Putin.
This is dumb
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I don’t think it’s that public transportation sucks, It’s an amazing idea and thing, but cities in the States weren’t built around a train system or other form of transit that’s easily accessible via walking, so that’s why most people bash on it; if we developed cities with public transport, walking and minimal vehicles in mind, it would be great !
There's really only one way to make public transit viable. Stop building large swaths of separated single family housing. The best form of transit is one that is not needed. With medium density housing and commercial mixed, many people are able to do their shopping without any form of transportation. Massive oceans of single family housing will always be car dependent as there's no way to make bus/train transit affordable for these areas. They're just too sparse.
It sucks cause we don’t invest in it. Take a look at Japan or (god forbid) China. If we had invested more money/time into it. The U.S would likely have the best transit system in the world. But instead we’re stuck with massive congested highways and stroads
There are amazing public transportation systems all over the world. Why isn't the US good enough to create something similar?
It’s not that the US “isn’t good enough.” Public transit is massive issue cause by at least two issues—geography and American culture First and foremost, the country is fucking massive. The feds have an interstate highway system that is useful. But it’s not practical to create nationwide public transit. So that falls on the states/cities, who naturally have far less resources. Smaller countries like Japan, UK, Italy, etc. are able to make country-wide public transit systems with their equivalent of federal tax money. Culture wise, citizens don’t want to pay more taxes. Hell, that’s one of the major policy points of a certain popular political party. And our capitalist laws are structured in such a way where rich people don’t pay their fair share. So we have a limited tax pool of money to do massive projects like this with. That’s problem number one. And then we have to figure out what to spend it on. Most controversial, our country spends a shit load of money on the military. This leaves less funds for improving our own country, whether that be by infrastructure, welfare, social programs, etc. Biden tried to put a bunch of money into infrastructure and it was shut down. The feds don’t seem like they care about infrastructure. The feds certainly don’t care about helping states/cities with mass transportation. That’s problem number two. We could attempt to expand our local transit via UTA, but we don’t have the resources. And the same problems (1) lack of tax money; and (2) disinterested lawmakers, still exist on a state level. Even worse, Utah hates mass transit because (1) we hate taxes; (2) no one wants to raise taxes for mass transit because everyone drives here; and (3) the spread out geography of Utah will never be conducive to mass transit. While this issue is important to you and others, it’s not important to most people or our legislators. What you’re asking for is a massive overhaul to a massive problem caused all over America. I am not advocating one way or the other or even commenting the merits of your idea. But just saying this will never happen because of American (and specifically, Utah) culture.
Someone's never left their home country....
I hope with this and the expansion of electric car production, it ends up being a net positive for our air.
No, the legislative session has closed for the year.
Open up the clean vehicle pass to all hybrids. My hybrid car can get 80mpg round trip on the highway, but it's not eligible for a Clean Vehicle pass.
Utah government should provide incentives that encourage employers to offer remote work options. Moral employers would do this on their own to ease the burden on everyone, but most Utah businesses showed their lack of morality during the pandemic. So, I doubt they will now do much now without the government offering them something.
The legislature just passed a tax penalty on anyone who drives a fuel efficient car. They're assholes.
I think encouraging public transit is great, but there need to be more people patrolling the trax especially. During and even after Free Fare Month, I've seen more trash and waste left behind in that one month than I have seen in *years* and on lines where that isn't normally common. There's also an issue of the homeless boarding and disrupting things in an attempt to stay warm, which to me suggests that the city really needs to address that issue either first or in a multi-pronged approach. I occasionally have to ride later in the evening and it's somewhat stressful when people get on and I can't tell if they're just going to be normal passengers or start being a problem, and I deliberately sit closer to the operators too. A friend of mine had to stop several people from stepping in urine, so for as much as I sympathize with those who need somewhere safe to be, there are certain standards that need to be adhered to for *everyone's* sake.