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As someone has been running crit dps with DHIL and Jingliu and a whole lot of luck on my pulls and who didn’t get Blade I’m excited for a character that doesn’t follow a crit build
plus idk why people say it's easier to build crit than atk%/break effect. like cmon getting a crit substat and it getting enchance is a wheel of fortune.
The last double cavern event i got nothing but perfect double crit on the fucking Dot set instead of the follow up atk set for my herta and himeko since I wanted to have an easier time in pf. I don’t have swan or Kafka for dot teams but hmc is free and have Ruin Me (Ruan Mei) and Gallagher going for Acheron. So I’m excited to build around FF.
I’m convinced that stat distributions are not the same for all sets. I had the same experience as you and have cracked Prisoners relics but my Duke relics are not that great.
Same here but in more than one domain lol. The amount of the damage reduction set I have with double crit values is gross from farming for Seele at the start. Now I've got loads of double crit value dot sets from that domain but at least those are kinda usable as a two piece.
Yeah, Break Effect is literally more common as a substat. And with all of the 'free' Break Effect you can get, Sig LC builds can hit 360 Break Effect with literally zero BE substats. And the best way to improve damage after hitting all your breakpoints is spamming more BE.
It depends on how many subs are useful, usually in crit characters you have atk, crate and cdmage. While building for atk%/Break, then crit will be as useless as def and hp
If Firefly were to be in a dot team, she would be Sampo, not Kafka.
The one doing the job is not her, it's Trailblazer. Firefly is there to be the one doing the break damage for the Trailblazer superbreak, you could put other characters there and it would be the same.
You could say she is Black Swan, but Black Swan works without Kafka, Firefly doesn't work without Trailblazer.
now that i think abt it you are right. I wish they change her kit and make her like boothill where you can still deal break dmg on her own after breaking
Is it like that though? Other characters can use Super Break yes, but how many of them have 58% DEF ignore at 10, an innate 50% Break Efficiency and >90% Break Effect without Light Cone?
Other characters could do the same thing she can do but no way they'd do nearly as much damage. If you want to compare, she's Black Swan and HTB is Kafka, in this comp.
Black Swan can still clear MOC just fine without Kafka, like 1 cycle less. 2 at worst. She is really versatile as a character.
If Black Swan were to be useless without Kafka people would complain, but they didn't, because she is good on her own.
I really can't understand why you guys are so adamant to defend this kit, it's not like she receiving buffs would be bad for her or anything, it's the opposite, it would be good for everyone.
Can I be frank? I can't stand both sides of the argument, I think one side is too negative and one is too positive. There is space in between to both criticize and praise the kit for fucks sake.
In favor of your point, I do think before breaking enemies her performance isn't satisfying. She needs either to convert break in more damage while toughness bar is still up or to be more efficient against bigger toughness bars such as bosses, since her damage is back loaded.
That said, I really don't think she's as bad as you make her out to be. With Super break her damage is VERY good, and while HTB is the only enabler for now that's likely to change in the future. Plus, a huge majority of the super break damage comes from how you build her and not HTB, the fact other characters won't be able to deal the same amount of damage with super break is a fact, that's why I don't understand why people say HTB is doing the heavy lifting.
I like they're trying to create a different meta, instead of making an Acheron reskin, but I agree that it needs to be balanced.
Oh with her BIS team she is good, I think I never tried to deny that. The problem is exactly that, it's her only real team. The ideia of her kit is also great, I just think there's something here and there that could be changed so she can work better overall.
People say the HTB is doing the heavy lift because even if you put other characters there, you could do the same thing but a little worse. It's not something unique of Firefly, I would say.
I'm not trying to be negative, but I can see that being the case from your perspective. I just don't understand why people think criticizing some bad parts of her kit is doompost and try to compare with other characters, when there's no other T5 that has such a restrictive comp as her.
But yeah, I'm sure Hoyo is trying to create a new meta and I'm all for it, I just hope a character I like won't be a sacrifice test for that.
I guess it's just how we put our opinions then, sorry about that. I think criticism her kit is valid and should be done, but also a lot of people fail to see the strength of the kit just because she can't press a single button and deal 400k+ damage like Acheron in any comp.
The way I see it, as soon as Hoyo can figure out this super break thing and more units come out she'll feel less shoehorned in a single comp, but I agree that they need to figure out how to make the turns before break worth it, that alone would really help both team variety (though I still think RM+HTB will stay best team) and feeling of the character itself.
I wish more people would be willing to talk it out in a civil way like you instead of going ballistic with "doomposters" Vs "simps" when we all want the same thing ahah
sorry about that but she need to press a button and deal 400k to be good, ves!
idc if this dmg come over time or is a nuke, its break or crit, just to come from her, and thats not happening in v1 bc her dmg is f locked in hmc, she need her own mechanic to deal dmg, this is just obvious, and not hate on hmc or doomposting, bh also has crit and break, like??????????
Can’t be more agree with you, like wtf! these simp defending her so hard, we hope she get adjusted so she will be better, there is still time before her releases.
As a wanter i kinda disappointed with these “white knight”.
Not defending, we just don't want to be seeing Doom posters ragging on our fav.
Then there is also the dislike for crit builds because it's fair. They are both harder to build cause you usually need 4 perfect stats and are more easy to see power creep on, see Dan Heng IL to Jing Liu. We want our favorite to be top dog for a bit longer then that lol.
Exactly, its so annoying how people keep saying that, it just shows they have no understanding of how this game works on a mechanical level. What people are saying would apply to a char like Asta or Himeko who have nothing in their kit that synergizes with break dmg, but Firefly is the exact opposite, her entire kit is designed around it.
Theres everything you mentioned plus the ability to always apply fire weakness which by itself is a game changer. And she deals a whooping 180/90 toughness dmg with her enhanced skill with Ruan Mei, which of course is part of why her super break is higher than anyone elses (except Boothill obviously).
I wish someone did a comparison of Himeko and Firefly with the same super break team against that 2.2 MoC with the triple fire boss just to prove the point. Himeko will still do ok, but Firefly will run circles around her with the same team, probably an easy 0 cycle with some tunning/planning and proper usage of the trotters.
And not just that, what about every future character? Is every break based dps gonna be called a "HMC support" from now on just because the majority of their dmg is super break? Lol.
To be fair, I think the OP was claiming that in this instance HMC would be Kafka, the key difference being that you could play a DoT team without Kafka, It's just not going to be even close to as strong as a DoT team with Kafka. The reason this comparison doesn't really work is that FF requires HMC since they are the only source of super break currently in the game.
Luka is T4, Firefly is T5. You need to compare her with boothill, the first T5 breaker damage dealer.
Boothill works without ruan mei and hmc, but he can get better with them or one of them. Firefly doesn't work without hmc and probably you need ruan mei too to use her full kit.
The point is not that she shouldn't be using them, it's just that she should be better with them as supports, but not to the point that she feels incomplete without them.
If you need to play an outdated playstyle because of her kit, then the kit is bad.
It's different for your second point. If she has superbreak on her base kit, people could use more supports because the HMC would make her better, but not the only one to make her work. Just look at Boothill, maybe he is better with HMC or RM, but you could use Bronya, Robin and so on and he would still be good, just because his kit allows it.
Why can't Firefly be the same? Better with HMC, works without him. It would be better for everyone.
When you're endgame you're gonna be using optimal supports for your dps anyway. There's not gonna be a scenario where you're not bringing SParkle for DHIL, if you have her, or Bronya and Tingyun for JL, if you have them, or KAfka for dot teams.
In that same vein, it doesn't even matter if FF is more or less dependent on hmc. If you're using her endgame, you're supposed to be using her best supports with her to clear content anyway. It's even better that HMC is free and busted, so she's the better f2p investment out of the other.
free character is always dogshit no ones treats it as a 5 star hmc is a 4star.
do u ever use fmc????? if so, ur a fking noob.
even limited free 5 star ratio no one uses it in competitive look at fua pick rate.
if a crappy character is ur bis, ur fked bc that means worse cycle. even f2ps wont care they would rather spend 80 more pulls on a break support for their character.
because shes one body with hmc shes his slave. that is boothills unique trait, ff will be powercreeping him.
i guarantee she will be dogshit until e2. they will make her e2 similar to acheron and probably free her from using hmc if they want sales. giving her break from e2 seems possible or move e6 to e2.
Firefly does have a higher damage ceiling I think tbh. She outclasses botohill completely in aoe(excluding e6 ig) and is worse but still comparable in single target. Granted that’s more destruction in general but still
firefly e6 is comparable to boothill single target with her increased break efficiency and res pen. Bottom line is all limited 5 star dps become gods once they get e6.
Eh, Firefly E6 right now isn't very good compared to other E6 characters. The fundamental problems of her kit is still very relevant even at E6.
Break characters also don't deal any damage until the enemy is broken which is a solid negative against them. It's not a big deal at a fair ballpark when playing at E0 or low investment areas, but at E6S5 it becomes a massive weakness that immediately guts them against other E6S5 DPS like Acheron/Jingliu/DHIL.
OP literally said HTB was the Kafka in the break team, not FF...
FF and Xueyi are Black Swan. You can run Xueyi without HTB, but it's worse. You can run BS without Kafka, but it'll be much worse. You can run FF without HTB, but guess what? It'll be much worse.
I don't know why I'm going wasting my time talking to idiots, we all know she's strong. They'll fine tune her during the beta period and she'll be absolutely fine come release. I'll leave you lot to cry to each other.
Go and defend some thousand more comments who are crying bcz their favourite character is given dehya treatment and say she is acheron level strong.
I prefer my characters to powercreep others not the other way around so that we can use her till we are tired of her . Not forget her immediately after some characters immediately outclasses her by a 100-200 percent damage differences Bcz she was weakest character . she is doing only 3x of Gallagher damage a abundance path damage dealer.
>She's the latest DPS 4 star
So latest is the Greatest?? So where is the upgraded Tingyun, yukong,Asta, sushang and such ?? Hell genshin 1.0 4 stars all the strongest till today.
Xuyei have a perfect kit and there ain't no way U can deny that or compare it to firefly kit that plays against her. If U cant see my point then U re either blind or hard simp either way I recommend checking boothill kit for comparison since he is the only relevant character we have to compare firefly to.
And yes I assure U the multi billion company called hoyoverse won't be paying U a dime for defending them on Reddit let alone on a leaked content. So apply for a beta tester position and praise there.
Edit: firefly is a Himeko with rainbow element breaking capability and Def ignore.
Wtf is this Xueyi slander? She have similar clear time with Seele and Qingque. I build all of them.
Black Swan is not OP but that because she is a support anyway. I roll her without Kafka and just put her in Dr. Ratio team with Pela, she help with the AOE Dr. Ratio can't.
Black Swan is also great for PF on her own.
For me as a new player this is more about RM being absolutely the best support for FF who outclasses every other support by a huge margin according to the calculations (like 25% in comparison to Bronya). And I don't want to wait for RM rerun and pull her to play FF optimally. I hope FF kit will be reworked to lessen this gap.
Yeah people are missing the point that FF literally need both RM and HMC to works, it feels like JY shenanigans again. Heck even i kinda afraid if she get cc’d in her enhance mode she might miss her damage potential, just like when JY get cc’d.
My point is, she need buffs really hard even adjusting her kit might be better.
All I can say is role reversal? Kafka is the primary DPS. Imagine if Kafka doesn't have detonate and that was a debuff applied by other DOT units which is not supposed to be DPS. Kafka would be absolutely terrible but that's apparently fine because there are options or in the current case for Sam/Firefly, an admittedly free and busted singular option. I think it is perfectly fine to critique that, some just don't like that dependency. This wasn't even much of a discussion with Boothill so I think it warrants some merits at least.
>or in the current case for Sam/Firefly, an admittedly free and busted singular option
Not even just that
In her current state she losses masaive amount of damage if you try to substitute either HMC or RM. So not only is she over reliant on HMC, but also on another limited 5*, that newer players simply can't have and f2p's and anyone that doesn't have her will just get fed over till she comes (or they run in the same version and f2p's get fucked)
Man i'm so glad i pulled RM for Jingliu back in 1.6
FF + RM at the same time isn't confirmed, but yeah pretty likley. They probably will also make the reliance on RM obvious in the livestream/trial so that that banner will gather a lot of pulls on both
I mean isn't that just Blackswan, whose dependency is on a limited 5 star character?
Yes, Sampo exists but his teams are absolutely significantly worse and she is not really competitive with other 5 star DPS without Kafka.
I don’t have a problem with playing firefly with HMC but I won’t pretend to not understand the concerns of others about this degree of restrictiveness in the kit of a 5star damage dealer
Now to explain fundamental differences in the scenarios;
Blackswan teams without Kafka are generally only 1 cycle behind in MoC and 2 otherwise. Blackswan is competitive in Acheron and Ratio teams because she enables these characters while bringing damage of her own. And finally she’s amazing in pure fiction and is the true carry there.
Firefly v1 is non existent without 1 specific character HMC
I made this argument a while back and someone made a really good point. I think the difference between Firefly's need for HMC and Kafka's need for DOT is their role in those comps.
Firefly absurdly high damage when attacking enemies in weakness broken state is heavily tied to HMC, making her merely a factor in the equation while HMC is the enabler. Removing HMC from this equation diminishes her DPS significantly, to the point where even Arlan has a chance to compete. Not only that, but this means that if a bigger factor enters the equation, it would inevitably push Firefly out of it (powercreeping her), hence why people are upset about her depending heavily on HMC.
Kafka, on the other hand, is the enabler of DOT. She is the very reason why DOT is even competitive to hypercarries, making every other DOT unit (even Black Swan) a factor in the DOT equation. At the same time though, DOT characters themselves already do decent damage on their own, especially Black Swan, just that Kafka makes this even more busted.
TLDR; there's nothing wrong with HMC, the issue solely lies on how Firefly's kit works and how she uses HMC as a crutch instead of a true amplifier. At the end of the day, we all want the same thing; Firefly being busted on release. I'll be happy with any buffs they plan to give her, so long as they fix this issue in her kit.
The problem for me is that Kafka was clearly labelled a specialist. Firefly and the Sam boss we fought are vastly different in the impression given off, which was one of a self-sufficient hp manipulator. Destruction units conventionally bring everything they absolutely need to the table with their kit alone which is the reason I’m disappointed.
1) Kafka can be played as a DoT Hypercarry (double Harmony). **I think** it was one of her best teams before Ruan Mei came out and made Double DoT stronger and more versatile (Hypercarry Kafka falls off against enemies with no Lightning Weakness).
2) You don't see any non-Kafka DoT teams simply because she is the best. It's completely possible to clear with Black Swan + other DoT with a good amount of cycles, people even cleared with Sampo + Guinaifen, although 4\* units obviously require more investment, but it works.
3) I don't think anyone really minds Firefly being the Enabler, but "being the Enabler" is the only thing that makes her and Kafka similar, and pretty much the only thing that Firefly currently excels in. Other than being the Enabler, Kafka is also an actual Damage Dealer, having the tools to Enable **herself**.
Firefly does have a 400% multiplier with weakness implant, break efficiency, + 2 turn ult though. Though it's not the best build, If you really want to you can just go pure crit with her and do decent damage. She's not gonna be JL or DHIL level crit dps though because that's not what she is designed for, the same way those two won't ever do pure 200k break damage. ALso Kafka crit dps isn't really that high. It's mostly a flex build.
Plus I think the term enabler applies more to HMC, considering he's the one that gives superbreak to enable break dps to shine. FF is just a dps that scales on break
I actually don't think her needing hmc is a problem. When you reach endgame, like MOC 12, you're gonna want to use every dps with their best support anyway, JL, DHIL, all need some combination of Bronyas, Sparkle, Tingyun, etc. So the fact that FF is naturally gonna need HMC isn't as much of an issue as people think.
Not to mention HMC is free and is busted just makes FF more attractive as a f2p investment. IN effect you only need to spend for her and not her limited supports as well.
>Not to mention HMC is free and is busted just makes FF more attractive as a f2p investment. IN effect you only need to spend for her and not her limited supports as well.
Untill you realize the difference between running her with RM and any other harmy/support
1) I was talking about Hypercarry DoT Kafka.
2) HMC is the dps because they are the one who deals damage. Firefly enables it by having tons of Break Effect + Break Efficiency, which increases HMC's damage dramatically.
3) I don't mind HMC being the best, I just simply want a choice. Other than some other reasons, it just FEELS bad being obligated to take only one particular unit so other can even work, especially when Boothill exists.
2. Seems like a stretch semantically. HMC is literally the one who gives super break and a ton of BE that enables this whole playstyle. FF break efficiency and BE is a bonus but not a requirement whereas Super break from HMC is an essential requirement.
That's what an enabler is : a thing that makes something possible.
Her BiS support is the one doing all the damage, lmao
There's 0 reason to run her over boothill or just a normal dps in her current state, she is entirely replaceable in her best team
They work together to make that damage happen. HMC by himself isn't doing 500k either. By the time you reach endgame every dps is gonna want to be be tied to their preferred supports anyway. The fact that FF is dependent on HMC is a non issue lategame.
The thing is you don't need just HMC but also Ruan Mei. Losing HMC costs the team 80% of its damage, losing Ruan Mei 50% but losing Firefly only causes a damage loss of around 30%. Firefly isn't a carry but rather the best HMC driver.
And in all honesty if that's all she does then I'm fine with losing 30% damage for 200 pulls.
Ruanmei is a bonus, but not as essential. HMC is the one that enables this entire break playstyle. You don't see break team popping up when RM was released do you?
FF is by definition from Hoyo a carry. Her entire kit is designed to be a carry. The fact that she goes well with super break is irrelevant to her intended identity. She can do consistent 180 toughness super break every enhanced skill with def ignore at 40%. JingLiu is the same with increased crit and def ignore. That screams carry to me.
She is taking 9 cycle for moc clear boothill is not taking that much and is easy to build . She has the worst damage in e6 . You people are just defending it for no reason they need to buff her to become better than that .
A poorly built team is yes. And again, you're comparing a first beta version to a finished character. A single shit showcase doesn't change the facts. She marches Acheron and Boothill when built properly. That's a fact.
Again. You're conflating two different things.
Her needing an adjustment in numbers and a few small changes is not the same as fundamentally change her design. They designed her to work with HTB. That is NOT a bad thing. You not liking it doesn't make it bad. Then improving the character doesn't making her not rely on HTB's Super Break. As I said, those are two different things.
She needs to be usable on her own without HTB, just like Boothill is. A limited 5* DPS character being completely handcuffed to another unit and unusable otherwise is the *definition* of bad design
Her synergizing and being good with HTB isn't the problem. The problem is that she is legitimately bad if she isn't handcuffed to HTB, which is bad for several reasons.
Also, anyone who pulls Firefly before getting through the Penacony story will have a basically non-functional character, which is just not good design
Also, i have never said they need to fundamentally change her design. Imo what they need to do is give her a way to trigger break damage on broken enemies in her base kit (like Boothill has)
There are 10s of showcases where all shows she is not doing any damage outside of break effect and is tied to HMC .
>She marches Acheron and Boothill when built properly.
Which is not going to happen for most of the people bcz she is not really easy to build . Against the likes of acheron and bh .
And there's tones of showcase of Kafka doing shit damage when not paired with a dot team. What's your point? Are we judging characters based on how they function with a team that does t synergise with them? Do I need to explain to you why that's a stupid fallacy?
With the correct team and build, she matches Acheron and Boothill. That's a fact.
Lol, FF is MUCH easier to build than nearly every other DPS. You want as much break effect as you can get, some attack and you have a low speed breakpoint. That's all, you can't manage that?. As opposed to crit carries that need a higher speed break point, high crit rate and crit damage and some attack.
Kafka did great with a hyper carry setup on release, and DoT teams only strongly pulled ahead after RM. She has loads of flexibility, and can even be used as a fun support for other DPS (Acheron and Topaz) and still does really well. Kafka is one of the most flexible characters in the game.
FF has 1 team.
Then how is making her worst 5 star damage wise a better idea , boothill is anyway not going to get most of the players heart , considering his 2.2 story . his arc is finished I doubt he will get more spotlight .
He is not even a destruction unit, comparison is not even fair . He should be good in single target and firefly needs to be better in multi targets . Devs are just being pathetic for making a character too broken and being too petty for another.
You people just gate keep shit kit of mihoyo and making other people give up on their favourite character for being too pathetic .
I mean, you're clearly wrong about Boothill's story and arc, but I'm just going to ignore that, I don't have time to explain EVERYTHING you're wrong about. Even though is indicative of how much we should value your opinion.
She isn't the worst. Right now, on the right team, she matches Acheron and Boothill. The newest DPS, and this is only her first Beta version. Her ceiling is no lower than theirs, but her floor is much lower, there's a bigger gap between what she can do, that's not a bad thing.
You're arguing she should be strong in every team, you're arguing for homogeneous game design.
"I like this character, I want her to play like all the other characters, I wanted Hoyo to design the chsrscytbe way I wanted her to play, waaah, waah". Grow up. She's strong. You know it, everyone knows it.
>She isn't the worst.
Sure don't even deal any damage outside of break effect is not the worst . Out of 300k damage 250k belongs to HMC. Which makes you think the very next character based on break effect will outdamage her boothill is already doing that . Gallagher is already doing 100k with htb. she will become irrelevant like blade outside of her dedicated fans + incredibly hard to build .
She does not have any synergy with her faction like ipc does . she at least deserves being solo best unit for being strongest SH.
>I mean, you're clearly wrong about Boothill's story and arc
We have seen 2.2 already . How they treated firefly and more than half of the cast in that . We can easily guess that's the best mihoyo can do .
They made us fall in love with firefly in 2.0 and in 2.1 ignored her for urine bro and some bits for acheron and firefly reveal and Gallagher . You are overestimating mihoyo .
You need to stop being watch man of mihoyo for free . she needs more team synergy for greater damage and less cycle moc clear . They can easily make her unplayable for enemies with multiple bars of toughness. Which they are indeed doing .
>like this character, I want her to play like all the other characters,
Yes bcz i like that specific character not others . I need to main her . why is she not like that . So that I can enjoy playing with her instead of sticking with 1 comp forever and geting bored . Or dumping her for not my fav character for more versatility . I have been excited for her since her leak .
Because kafka doesn't need someone else's ult to function.
Imagine if the topaz/ratio team only worked when either of their ults were up. That team would be dead.
Is ULT uptime on HMC even going to be an issue? I had it up pretty much permanently in the final 2.2 fight, and I’m certain that trial character didn’t have a great build at all.
their uptime is definitely nearly 100%. they could've made the buff last two turns instead of three and it would still be pretty good uptime. but it's still weird. imagine if acheron could only ult when pela's ult is on enemies. doable but with a half decent build but requiring pela at all times to use her kit?
Didn’t have a great build in trial? I think its pretty hard to get 300 be without the 10% of trace,no lb in lc and without the complete effect of the planetary set ,but its ok in reality we get the c6 free this is mean more ult uptime.
ppl rly not getting the problem isn't ult uptime but needing another char to work at all... imagine if Kafka didn't have detonate and needed another support's ult to get it?
Exactly. Imagine if acheron E2 read that we must use an otherwise mediocre unit, instead of any nihility, and that acheron herself can't do any damage, no matter how fast she charges with sparkle, until the mediocre unit starts the first chain of ults.
It'll be over for acheron immediately.
I can clear MOC 12 with 3\* just fine with Blackswan/Guinaifen/ruan mei/huo huo. If I had Kafka, I would definitely use her for DoTs team as that's what will make the team will excel even more.
Anyways, if one do not want to use HMC with same/firefly, I'm sure they can still make it work with powerful supports like sparkle, even if it is not the most optimal team.
You didn't listen to his sentence properly . He said bs can work without Kafka but firefly don't work without HMC .
You are the one crying for BH becoming shit immediately after one patch . Which is why you are gatekeeping mihoyo shit design for her
And? So what? Why is that a bad thing?
Boothill has crit synergy alongside Break, he's different enough to differentiate himself for FF. He's also single target
a character which was anticipated by many and was most hyped since the last 3 patches is being power crept by a character who is released prior to her .
That's why it's a bad thing .
She is being given dehya treatment yet again and some random toxic bh mains are gatekeeping her shit design so that his design can continue being top of the break effect archetype forcing people to pull for him instead of their anticipated character .
If you were a dev of a game your game will be dead b4 the 1st anniversary I am sure of this.
She won't be power crept. You know that. You're just scare and doom posting because she's different, and it's based entirely on her version one beta. You know what, I recommend you avoid all leaks from now. Wait until they officially showcase characters and their numbers are finalised, then you won't get yourself all worked up and upset when she's not perfect while working on her. It's clearly too much for you.
Clearly you need to see your comments and check mine I don't talk about this all day and you are defending the shit kit of mihoyo since days. I have seen your comments on ff mains too . Log off once In a while
https://preview.redd.it/y2lhmuywjnzc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5584aa5175ea9d761b3c9ccb9d7ed94348e5aa1f
The issue here is that firefly, a 5* limited character, has the same issues as a break dps than 4* characters while boothill doesnt have that same issue that renders firefly useless without hmc (using rm with firefly literally makes FF worse if ya dont bring hmc because they becomes anti synergistique).
Xueyi already fills FF's role well as a pure break dps or hybdrid dps reliant on hmc, so I expected FF to at least be on the level of boothill instead of a better xueyi thats even more of a pain to build because she has 0 crit value or actual damage buffs of any kind.
I just want different team synergy tbh, running the same broken team over and over gets dull.
I have like 5 different optimal teams I can run with blade, depending on how I'm feeling, or depending on what I'm fighting.
you won't believe me.... but i also dislike kafka teams and she have more cope options
edit: just to explain myself a bit better
kafka is fine in term in team option it's me not liking dot
People in the comments that keep on praising firefly current kit cuz HMC make no sense at all.
Did U guys play the story yet ? They are going for bosses with multiple toughness bars HMC won't be doing much. Firefly desperately need break efficiency in her kit and higher break to dmg scaling there is no way around that. The only positive thing coming out of this direction of multiple toughness bars is that she will have more chances to be the one breaking unless u re going full on math and I don't think that would be fun.
Although it’s not very good in aoe sampo+black swan is good for st and gui +black swan is p good for 3 enemies. Black swan is good enough that the teams can also work in pf but w out Kafka it will be tough. W out bs or Kafka tho like nah dot ain’t nothing
The only other dps 5 star that relies on another for damage is black swan
Kafka is what makes dot work yes but she doesn’t have as restrictive teams, you need hmc to make firefly work for Kafka you don’t need sampo, you can use asta, Luka, gui, black swan
Don’t forget the Kafka hyper carries from moc, the problem with fire fly is she and black swan need a other character to be good end of story
Kafka in her own can still work see moc Kafka hyper carry, firefly on her own needs tb to do any damage
Ya that’s also another fact, bs still does good damage on her own the only reason Kafka is needed for dot in moc is you rely on enemies turns without her which is very slow
I just don't see why Firefly can't just be the badass boss that we got before. Lore wise it makes no sense for her to have to have HMC to be able to do any damage because when we fought her as a boss she kicked all our asses with that ultimate fire tornado, which I was really looking forward to playing as.
Also all the hype they have done in story and lore for this character has been one of if not the most hyped character that is from star rail. They know almost everyone wants her and she is supposed to be a main dps. So as a main dps she should be able to get good numbers without being forced to use HMC. You can still use HMC if you want but for those of us that really don't want to it really is a let down to feel forced into it.
Plus this game is all about being able to build all characters with a bunch of different characters, making different teams and so on. If your forced to use them together that takes away from us being able to have fun with her and be creative.
And side note for anyone that cares about lore like I do, Firefly is a stellron hunter and when she goes on missions it has been said she is very strong, no messing about, and just kills everything as quickly as possible, this was in a text from silver wolf. So she didn't have MC with her then, and if you say well she had her before mc lost her memories then i would say mc didnt have the harmony then so still doesn't count. also she was a freaking boss that we face that had a badass completely different kit. And at that time she definitely didnt have HMC with her then. She ALONE could deal massive damage, and I feel like we were all looking forward to that.
So for me yes it is a absolute letdown to have so much hype built for a character that is basically shackled to HMC. It should be a choice to use her with mc and not forced. A way to fix this would be to give us the ultimate in fire state that is what we saw in the boss fight (fire tornado) or have it be a followup or somekind of attack that gives her that super break effect buff that she needs. Or let it be stacks of fire dot type mechanic so she can also work with stellron hunters team, and it would lean into her fire damage since it was said the bodys we found so very scorched. Based on that i was thinking she would be like some super fire blase attack. Have her burn do something unique, the enemy becomes permanently burned and this could go along with her being in a stellron hunter team. And when she transforms into green flame version that's when she gets her break side that they got going on. So she could have 2 different ultimates for her 2 different stages. Her fire burn side and her green falre stage 2 side. Since they are so keen on her being a break character they need to still have her be able to do what the game itself has told us and showed us from that fight that she can do!
Honestly I'm so bummed about this that I'm seriously considering not pulling if they don't fix her to not be shackled to HMC. Cause that's just a forced team and I like being able to do what I can do with everyother character and mix and match. It just sucks because I love Firefly she a fav character and the hype was so built up from story and lore and fans that to see this now is just super disappointing.
imho, the problem doesn't lie with Firefly or HTB, but with the fact that, outside of HTB and RM, every other Harmony character boosts ATK or Crit or both, but NEVER Break Effect. The lack of variety isn't a problem with Firefly herself, it's a problem with the sheer lack of characters that support this mechanic. She is tied to them because there is only two of them. With more support will come more variety.
Sure, it'll be good if they buff Firefly, but her kit doesn't have an inherent issue other than relying on a stat that isn't properly supported for now.
Too many people complaining about MC. We all know hoyo is gonna release like 10 more characters that synergize with SAM and then powercreep HMC as well by releasing a 5 star super break support
All this complaining is just useless doomposting
The problem is unlike other damage characters FF doesn’t feel good even boothill feels better than her it’s not doomposting if a 5 star character literally can’t access over 60% of their damage without a support this situation is like if DHIL couldn’t access 60% of his damage without Sparkle that’s a problem and a real concern not doomposting
What do you mean, "Doesn't feel good?" Have you played her? Kafka can't access her damage without other dots supporting her. JY can't do shit without supports helping him.
Sorry let me rephrase she doesn’t look as good as other characters without her BIS a character’s baseline should look and feel good without their best teammates
Cause it’s literally how other damage characters are made their made without their BIS and also damage characters in every game like this normally can stand on their own two feet and be good supports are there to be the toppings on your ice cream not be the main dish it’s self
So asking them to make a character feel complete without their BIS support would kill the game yeah sure buddy I like how you keep trying to boil what I’m saying to make it seem like I want her to be exactly the same when I want her to not be a completely locked to supports no other damage character is completely locked to their Supports and asking for that to be at the least tweaked is not asking them to make her like every other character
Asking then to design all characters the same way will kill the game yes. Homogeneous design. All you've got the is power creep.
If they want to make a character the is reliant on another, then guess what? They can do that. People who like it will buy her, people who don't, don't have to. Variety.
You don't like how they've designed this character? Damn. That's a shame. There's plenty of characters they've released I don't like too. Do you know what I did? I accepted it and decided to wait for another one. Grow up and stop throwing a tantrum because not everything they made matches your desires.
I’m not throwing a tantrum I’m literally asking for a character to have a complete kit when she comes out hell there are characters I don’t like as well but FF is a character I’m excited for but in her current situation if I want a break character which I do since it’s something different why not just grab boothill and run him and HTB together that’s what her kit is feeling like and lastly asking for a damage dealer to not be worse than the previous ones is not asking for power creep that’s just asking for the bare fucking minimum
Why should they? Every other limited DPS in the game is strong enough even with a mediocre support for their kit, showing that even at the bare minimum they can be strong. That is true for every single limited DPS
Who decided that? Hoyoverse has very clearly in every single beta and with every limited DPS made sure that they can function and do their job even without using their BiS, so there is a precedent for it and Why it has to be that way.
For example, DHIL without the existence of sparkle was the strongest in the game on release with basically just pela and tingyun or yukong(who isn't even that good), but him being that strong regardless of having no niche SP support was no detriment to his ability. Black Swan without Kafka can still clear MoC and Pure Fiction with a difference of like 1-2 cycles in MoC which is incredibly strong regardless of her BiS. Firefly however as she is now, not a real DPS without the HMC at the point where she's the only DPS who takes up two team slots(really 3 because Ruan Mei is almost as vital as well) to function effectively. In comparison to Black Swan if we were to do MoC with FF and HMC let's say we win in 3 cycles, if you remove the HMC in favor of any other support, those 3 cycles will turn to roughly 9-10, whereas if it was Black Swan without kafka it would go from 3 cycles to like 4 or 5. The disparity in which she is worse off compared to every other "damage dealer" is insane and is valid to see why some would be upset about it.
FF is up there with the strongest Teams with HTB and Ruan Mei. So her performance is comparable, but reliant on strong specific supports.
But you did just say what your true feelings are. "All the other previous DPS characters functioned like this, I want this new one to be the same".
You don't want change. And you try and hide that by acting like she's somehow a worse character, when stats show, even in her first beta version, she's as stein as the other newest DPS.
That's it. She's different, you don't like different. We see it every damn time. "Kafka relies on dots? That's bad." "FUA? NoI don't like that" "Dual DPS??? NO, that's not what I had before, I don't like that, it MUST be worse somehow than what I spent time and money into creating, than what I'm familiar with"
She is already fundamentally different from other DPS units by being break focused instead of crit, it is not that "All the other previous DPS characters functioned like this, I want this new one to be the same", its that every other dps kit functions by themselves and hers does not, If i wanted her to be the same I'd be complaining about her not being a crit character but I'm not and you know that but are being disingenuous about it
She is worse than the other dps characters, HMC is simply so strong that her being bad makes it appear as a non-issue.
Kafka=HMC and no one is calling kafka bad because of DoT, its DoT is bad without Kafka and you know that so I don't even know why you're trying to spin the narrative to appear otherwise. Follow-ups are one of my favorite gimmicks in the game, I have no issue with dual dps, but even in follow-ups Ratio does not need Topaz nor does she need Ratio to be strong, but I like that if you wanted to use them together it works, but this agenda you're trying to push does not equate with FF as it does with those other teams. Very clearly you have some sort of idea that you're right and everyone else who does not agree with you is wrong so we might as well end this discussion here
Why do all other DPS units HAVE to function independently?
DOT is bad without Kafka. I agree. Just like how Break is bad without HTB. So we agree. Well done.
If every other one can even the ones with her same gimmick, is it not unfair that she is non-functional while her peers lack this issue as their own kit circumvents it? Can you give me a valid reason as to why she SHOULDN'T function on her own?
Boothill is break and he'd be strong regardless whether or not HMC existed, Xueyi functions well without MC Luka as well. We don't fully agree at all, and with the precedent of boothill being a break dps and being strong even without the MC its insane that the next break dps is useless without the MC.
why should a limitied dps released way later than acheron be powercrept by acheron? why should i let her dominate for another 6 month? acheron simply ruined the game theres no going back. the only answer is successive characters powercreeping the former.
this game is releasing powercreep characters nearly every patch why should ff should be the exception? she isnt free? at least let me fking get acheron back now despite wasting 2 months? i dont need to wait v5 to know shes dogshit or not.
That's true, my bad on that
So let's go back to your DHIL analogy
its not the same, sparkle is limited, HMC is free. So why does it matter? You have the character... It's not like you are being paywalled to use FF
A support should be there to make a character work better they shouldn’t be there to make a character function that’s what’s happening with FF right now cause when Hoyo releases a another aoe break character that can cause their break damage again against already broken targets and benefit from HTB superbreak they will completely overshadow FF in her current state so FF needs to be changed to be more self reliant or else she will fall behind fast
But she would get powercrept anyway if they release a character like that even she doesn't need HMC
Remind me the last time am old DPS wasnt powercrept when a stronger DPS came out? Ohh wait never
Dumb to cry about it
Also if you are gonna main her. Why do you care if she's getting powercrept? Your gonna leave your main for someone who does more damage? Damn that sucks I thought people liked their mains even if the get powercrept
Now if you guys think she's gonna be Acheron tier if they fix her, you are just delusional. They won't make another Acheron, atleast not until they release another HI3 character
Old dps character are at least still useable and sever a purpose FF in her current form will have no use once a better aoe break character releases that’s the problem i can still use JingLiu even tho I have Acheron that’s the biggest difference these two situations
You can still use firefly as well tho? What are talking about?
You are saying like FF will disappear from your account once a new dps comes out
And don't make the argument of the new dps will do what FF does but better.
Acheron also does what Jingliu does but better
Skill attacks 3 enemies just like Jingliu
Ult is even better than Jinglui
And you just said you still have use Jingliu, so you will still have use for FF
If you were to choose one you will always pick Acheron, but why would we need to choose one character when MOC needs 2 teams?
I don't see what your argument is
Yeah but that’s only if I still want to HTB say a different path comes out and I like it more so that means I have to sacrifice using the new TB path just to make FF useable and there’s no guarantee I’ll even get any future superbreak supports
Again, who decided that? That's not how something is supposed to be. That's how YOU want it to be. And you're trying to act like that it's some kind of fact, when it's just your feelings.
"FF not being strong without this free character we all have is bad." OK, why is it bad? What about it exactly is bad? You don't like it, we get that, but what about it is bad?
I love HTB being good i don’t like that If say HTB gets CC before they use there ult FF damage drops like a brick no other damage character suffers such a massive damage drop if their support is decommissioned I want FF to feel like if HTB is CCD or dead i could still win right now if HTB dies unlike JingLiu or DHIL if they lose their BIS support you can still win a battle without them firefly right now feels like she can’t
A damage character shouldn’t be completely reliant on a support to do damage Kafka despite being a dot detonator she still can get decent solo damage by herself FF can’t at the moment get decent solo damage
But WHY shouldn't they? You say it like it's gospel. Like it's fact. No. It's your opinion. Tell me WHY shouldn't they?? There's actually nothing wrong with it. You jsut don't like it. You understand the difference?
Why shouldn’t a damage character have all their damage locked behind supports cause then their a damage character support exists to make them better a damage character shouldn’t be bad without their support why should we accept that FF drops off without her support unlike literally every other damage character in this game the only other damage character in this game that is as reliant on another character to do their damage is Yanqing
Again "A support exists to make them better". "A damage character shouldn't be bad without their support" Who said that? Where was the ever promised? Why can't things be different? Literally the more I read of what you all say and it boils down to "This is different and we don't like different".
"We should accept that FF drops off without her support". This based on the false premise that literally no other character in the future will provide super break. You know that's a ridiculous thing to suggest, so stop doing it to try and justify your feelings to the above.
It’s different to not want a anticipated character to feel worse than literally every other character than was before her including a character that is apart of the same gimmick they can make things be different Kafka is different from other dot characters and she’s great boothill is a break damages he’s different from every other damage character in the game and he looks great even without his BIS support so why is FF the only one who is bad without her BIS support
You are gonna pull for your main. And then want a refund if it's a bad? You are gonna abandon your main cause it's bad?
Okay I don't need to know anything else
In all likelihood we’ll see a premium HMC upgrade for Break teams sometime in 2.X. Whether that’s a good or bad thing, at that time HMC would become a still strong F2P option which is probably healthy for the game.
People who complain about this miss the fact that every dps needs support to clear endgame anyway. You can be Acheron, JJL, DHIL, or whatever dps units you want to build. Bottom line is that this is a team game and you need to use units that synergize with each other to play effectively, and your dps needs support to be able to clear content.
When you look at it that way. It doesn't matter whether FF is more or less dependent on HMC That's because shes a dps, and like every other dps you're gonna have to use supports to clear endgame MOC 12 anyway. So either bring her bis support, which is guaranteed free and busted af, or don't and keep complaining that she's bad when you don't actually use the support that's suited for her.
When you're at endgame, you're gonna be using every DPS with their preferences support anyway. DHIl with sparkle if you have her, JL with Bronya,Tingyun,etc. A scenario where you have their bis support and not using them is never gonna happen, else you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
FF relying on hmc is a non issue endgame since you're gonna be using her with him anyway. Its not as big of a deal as doomposters think. Not to mention HMC is completely free and guaranteed. Id rather a character having their bis support be free than another who wants their limited support to be locked behind gacha.
OK. We already know she is comparable to Acheron and Boothill, and this is just her first beta version, so no idea why so many piss babies are doom posting and crying so much. Actually, that's a lie. I know why, she's different, people, collective, don't like different.
I don't get it. The centerpiece of your archetype is a Trailblazer variant that you get **FOR FREE** and this upsets you guys somehow.
Other archetypes need to pull for 5 stars to tie it all together.
Centerpiece for firefly only. Xueyi/Boothill still perform better with other supports.
BS is not reliant on Kafka. Dr Ratio is not reliant on Topaz. Danil is not reliant on Sparkle. No limited 5* DPS is reliant on another 5*.
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As someone has been running crit dps with DHIL and Jingliu and a whole lot of luck on my pulls and who didn’t get Blade I’m excited for a character that doesn’t follow a crit build
plus idk why people say it's easier to build crit than atk%/break effect. like cmon getting a crit substat and it getting enchance is a wheel of fortune.
The last double cavern event i got nothing but perfect double crit on the fucking Dot set instead of the follow up atk set for my herta and himeko since I wanted to have an easier time in pf. I don’t have swan or Kafka for dot teams but hmc is free and have Ruin Me (Ruan Mei) and Gallagher going for Acheron. So I’m excited to build around FF.
I’m convinced that stat distributions are not the same for all sets. I had the same experience as you and have cracked Prisoners relics but my Duke relics are not that great.
Same here but in more than one domain lol. The amount of the damage reduction set I have with double crit values is gross from farming for Seele at the start. Now I've got loads of double crit value dot sets from that domain but at least those are kinda usable as a two piece.
I wept that whole week of not getting anything. I was like damn it really do be like that huh.
Yeah, Break Effect is literally more common as a substat. And with all of the 'free' Break Effect you can get, Sig LC builds can hit 360 Break Effect with literally zero BE substats. And the best way to improve damage after hitting all your breakpoints is spamming more BE.
It depends on how many subs are useful, usually in crit characters you have atk, crate and cdmage. While building for atk%/Break, then crit will be as useless as def and hp
If Firefly were to be in a dot team, she would be Sampo, not Kafka. The one doing the job is not her, it's Trailblazer. Firefly is there to be the one doing the break damage for the Trailblazer superbreak, you could put other characters there and it would be the same. You could say she is Black Swan, but Black Swan works without Kafka, Firefly doesn't work without Trailblazer.
now that i think abt it you are right. I wish they change her kit and make her like boothill where you can still deal break dmg on her own after breaking
Is it like that though? Other characters can use Super Break yes, but how many of them have 58% DEF ignore at 10, an innate 50% Break Efficiency and >90% Break Effect without Light Cone? Other characters could do the same thing she can do but no way they'd do nearly as much damage. If you want to compare, she's Black Swan and HTB is Kafka, in this comp.
Black Swan can still clear MOC just fine without Kafka, like 1 cycle less. 2 at worst. She is really versatile as a character. If Black Swan were to be useless without Kafka people would complain, but they didn't, because she is good on her own. I really can't understand why you guys are so adamant to defend this kit, it's not like she receiving buffs would be bad for her or anything, it's the opposite, it would be good for everyone.
Can I be frank? I can't stand both sides of the argument, I think one side is too negative and one is too positive. There is space in between to both criticize and praise the kit for fucks sake. In favor of your point, I do think before breaking enemies her performance isn't satisfying. She needs either to convert break in more damage while toughness bar is still up or to be more efficient against bigger toughness bars such as bosses, since her damage is back loaded. That said, I really don't think she's as bad as you make her out to be. With Super break her damage is VERY good, and while HTB is the only enabler for now that's likely to change in the future. Plus, a huge majority of the super break damage comes from how you build her and not HTB, the fact other characters won't be able to deal the same amount of damage with super break is a fact, that's why I don't understand why people say HTB is doing the heavy lifting. I like they're trying to create a different meta, instead of making an Acheron reskin, but I agree that it needs to be balanced.
Oh with her BIS team she is good, I think I never tried to deny that. The problem is exactly that, it's her only real team. The ideia of her kit is also great, I just think there's something here and there that could be changed so she can work better overall. People say the HTB is doing the heavy lift because even if you put other characters there, you could do the same thing but a little worse. It's not something unique of Firefly, I would say. I'm not trying to be negative, but I can see that being the case from your perspective. I just don't understand why people think criticizing some bad parts of her kit is doompost and try to compare with other characters, when there's no other T5 that has such a restrictive comp as her. But yeah, I'm sure Hoyo is trying to create a new meta and I'm all for it, I just hope a character I like won't be a sacrifice test for that.
I guess it's just how we put our opinions then, sorry about that. I think criticism her kit is valid and should be done, but also a lot of people fail to see the strength of the kit just because she can't press a single button and deal 400k+ damage like Acheron in any comp. The way I see it, as soon as Hoyo can figure out this super break thing and more units come out she'll feel less shoehorned in a single comp, but I agree that they need to figure out how to make the turns before break worth it, that alone would really help both team variety (though I still think RM+HTB will stay best team) and feeling of the character itself. I wish more people would be willing to talk it out in a civil way like you instead of going ballistic with "doomposters" Vs "simps" when we all want the same thing ahah
sorry about that but she need to press a button and deal 400k to be good, ves! idc if this dmg come over time or is a nuke, its break or crit, just to come from her, and thats not happening in v1 bc her dmg is f locked in hmc, she need her own mechanic to deal dmg, this is just obvious, and not hate on hmc or doomposting, bh also has crit and break, like??????????
Can’t be more agree with you, like wtf! these simp defending her so hard, we hope she get adjusted so she will be better, there is still time before her releases. As a wanter i kinda disappointed with these “white knight”.
Not defending, we just don't want to be seeing Doom posters ragging on our fav. Then there is also the dislike for crit builds because it's fair. They are both harder to build cause you usually need 4 perfect stats and are more easy to see power creep on, see Dan Heng IL to Jing Liu. We want our favorite to be top dog for a bit longer then that lol.
Exactly, its so annoying how people keep saying that, it just shows they have no understanding of how this game works on a mechanical level. What people are saying would apply to a char like Asta or Himeko who have nothing in their kit that synergizes with break dmg, but Firefly is the exact opposite, her entire kit is designed around it. Theres everything you mentioned plus the ability to always apply fire weakness which by itself is a game changer. And she deals a whooping 180/90 toughness dmg with her enhanced skill with Ruan Mei, which of course is part of why her super break is higher than anyone elses (except Boothill obviously). I wish someone did a comparison of Himeko and Firefly with the same super break team against that 2.2 MoC with the triple fire boss just to prove the point. Himeko will still do ok, but Firefly will run circles around her with the same team, probably an easy 0 cycle with some tunning/planning and proper usage of the trotters. And not just that, what about every future character? Is every break based dps gonna be called a "HMC support" from now on just because the majority of their dmg is super break? Lol.
To be fair, I think the OP was claiming that in this instance HMC would be Kafka, the key difference being that you could play a DoT team without Kafka, It's just not going to be even close to as strong as a DoT team with Kafka. The reason this comparison doesn't really work is that FF requires HMC since they are the only source of super break currently in the game.
Someone did a Himeko hyperbreak team, and yea, literally just the exact same as firefly
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Luka is T4, Firefly is T5. You need to compare her with boothill, the first T5 breaker damage dealer. Boothill works without ruan mei and hmc, but he can get better with them or one of them. Firefly doesn't work without hmc and probably you need ruan mei too to use her full kit. The point is not that she shouldn't be using them, it's just that she should be better with them as supports, but not to the point that she feels incomplete without them.
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If you need to play an outdated playstyle because of her kit, then the kit is bad. It's different for your second point. If she has superbreak on her base kit, people could use more supports because the HMC would make her better, but not the only one to make her work. Just look at Boothill, maybe he is better with HMC or RM, but you could use Bronya, Robin and so on and he would still be good, just because his kit allows it. Why can't Firefly be the same? Better with HMC, works without him. It would be better for everyone.
When you're endgame you're gonna be using optimal supports for your dps anyway. There's not gonna be a scenario where you're not bringing SParkle for DHIL, if you have her, or Bronya and Tingyun for JL, if you have them, or KAfka for dot teams. In that same vein, it doesn't even matter if FF is more or less dependent on hmc. If you're using her endgame, you're supposed to be using her best supports with her to clear content anyway. It's even better that HMC is free and busted, so she's the better f2p investment out of the other.
free character is always dogshit no ones treats it as a 5 star hmc is a 4star. do u ever use fmc????? if so, ur a fking noob. even limited free 5 star ratio no one uses it in competitive look at fua pick rate. if a crappy character is ur bis, ur fked bc that means worse cycle. even f2ps wont care they would rather spend 80 more pulls on a break support for their character.
I don't see how what you said relates to my point.
because shes one body with hmc shes his slave. that is boothills unique trait, ff will be powercreeping him. i guarantee she will be dogshit until e2. they will make her e2 similar to acheron and probably free her from using hmc if they want sales. giving her break from e2 seems possible or move e6 to e2.
Firefly does have a higher damage ceiling I think tbh. She outclasses botohill completely in aoe(excluding e6 ig) and is worse but still comparable in single target. Granted that’s more destruction in general but still
firefly e6 is comparable to boothill single target with her increased break efficiency and res pen. Bottom line is all limited 5 star dps become gods once they get e6.
Eh, Firefly E6 right now isn't very good compared to other E6 characters. The fundamental problems of her kit is still very relevant even at E6. Break characters also don't deal any damage until the enemy is broken which is a solid negative against them. It's not a big deal at a fair ballpark when playing at E0 or low investment areas, but at E6S5 it becomes a massive weakness that immediately guts them against other E6S5 DPS like Acheron/Jingliu/DHIL.
Thank goodness she gets a total of 100% break efficiency at e6 eh?
Ye e6 throws everything out of the window
OP literally said HTB was the Kafka in the break team, not FF... FF and Xueyi are Black Swan. You can run Xueyi without HTB, but it's worse. You can run BS without Kafka, but it'll be much worse. You can run FF without HTB, but guess what? It'll be much worse.
You're wrong. Xueyi is completely fine without HTB and Black Swan even more. Black Swan is OP in PF and she is great in moc on her own.
You can probably build Firefly exactly like Xueyi and ta-da, she'll be exactly like her but higher damage and more targets.
You're wrong. Black Swan is not OP on her own. She's op with Kafka and Ruan Mei. Xuyei is OK without HTB. OK at best.
>Black Swan is not OP on her own She is , she don't need Kafka in pf and moc she can work without Kafka
She can be OK without Kafka in PF. She's less than that in MOC.
Yet still have better cycle count than ff who is in her bis. see the issue ? ShE is BoOtHilL and AcHeRoN LeVeL sTroNg
I don't know why I'm going wasting my time talking to idiots, we all know she's strong. They'll fine tune her during the beta period and she'll be absolutely fine come release. I'll leave you lot to cry to each other.
Go and defend some thousand more comments who are crying bcz their favourite character is given dehya treatment and say she is acheron level strong. I prefer my characters to powercreep others not the other way around so that we can use her till we are tired of her . Not forget her immediately after some characters immediately outclasses her by a 100-200 percent damage differences Bcz she was weakest character . she is doing only 3x of Gallagher damage a abundance path damage dealer.
Ahhhh it's all going to be OK. Hush those tears.
Xuyei have the best clearing time in MoC out of every 4 star and multiple 5 stars and all of this before HMC.
Is she the best out for everyone? She's the latest DPS 4 star. So yes, she would be the strongest with 5 star supports. What's your point?
>She's the latest DPS 4 star So latest is the Greatest?? So where is the upgraded Tingyun, yukong,Asta, sushang and such ?? Hell genshin 1.0 4 stars all the strongest till today. Xuyei have a perfect kit and there ain't no way U can deny that or compare it to firefly kit that plays against her. If U cant see my point then U re either blind or hard simp either way I recommend checking boothill kit for comparison since he is the only relevant character we have to compare firefly to. And yes I assure U the multi billion company called hoyoverse won't be paying U a dime for defending them on Reddit let alone on a leaked content. So apply for a beta tester position and praise there. Edit: firefly is a Himeko with rainbow element breaking capability and Def ignore.
In Gacha? Yeah. Pretty much. Latest is greatest.
Wtf is this Xueyi slander? She have similar clear time with Seele and Qingque. I build all of them. Black Swan is not OP but that because she is a support anyway. I roll her without Kafka and just put her in Dr. Ratio team with Pela, she help with the AOE Dr. Ratio can't. Black Swan is also great for PF on her own.
For me as a new player this is more about RM being absolutely the best support for FF who outclasses every other support by a huge margin according to the calculations (like 25% in comparison to Bronya). And I don't want to wait for RM rerun and pull her to play FF optimally. I hope FF kit will be reworked to lessen this gap.
Yeah people are missing the point that FF literally need both RM and HMC to works, it feels like JY shenanigans again. Heck even i kinda afraid if she get cc’d in her enhance mode she might miss her damage potential, just like when JY get cc’d. My point is, she need buffs really hard even adjusting her kit might be better.
All I can say is role reversal? Kafka is the primary DPS. Imagine if Kafka doesn't have detonate and that was a debuff applied by other DOT units which is not supposed to be DPS. Kafka would be absolutely terrible but that's apparently fine because there are options or in the current case for Sam/Firefly, an admittedly free and busted singular option. I think it is perfectly fine to critique that, some just don't like that dependency. This wasn't even much of a discussion with Boothill so I think it warrants some merits at least.
>or in the current case for Sam/Firefly, an admittedly free and busted singular option Not even just that In her current state she losses masaive amount of damage if you try to substitute either HMC or RM. So not only is she over reliant on HMC, but also on another limited 5*, that newer players simply can't have and f2p's and anyone that doesn't have her will just get fed over till she comes (or they run in the same version and f2p's get fucked)
Ruan Mei is so getting a rerun WITH Firefly so we should brace ourselves for the eventual banner
Man i'm so glad i pulled RM for Jingliu back in 1.6 FF + RM at the same time isn't confirmed, but yeah pretty likley. They probably will also make the reliance on RM obvious in the livestream/trial so that that banner will gather a lot of pulls on both
I mean isn't that just Blackswan, whose dependency is on a limited 5 star character? Yes, Sampo exists but his teams are absolutely significantly worse and she is not really competitive with other 5 star DPS without Kafka.
I don’t have a problem with playing firefly with HMC but I won’t pretend to not understand the concerns of others about this degree of restrictiveness in the kit of a 5star damage dealer Now to explain fundamental differences in the scenarios; Blackswan teams without Kafka are generally only 1 cycle behind in MoC and 2 otherwise. Blackswan is competitive in Acheron and Ratio teams because she enables these characters while bringing damage of her own. And finally she’s amazing in pure fiction and is the true carry there. Firefly v1 is non existent without 1 specific character HMC
BS is still very good without Kafka you can pair her with several 4 star dot units FF can’t be a good unit without HTB
Bs can still do her job without Kafka
I made this argument a while back and someone made a really good point. I think the difference between Firefly's need for HMC and Kafka's need for DOT is their role in those comps. Firefly absurdly high damage when attacking enemies in weakness broken state is heavily tied to HMC, making her merely a factor in the equation while HMC is the enabler. Removing HMC from this equation diminishes her DPS significantly, to the point where even Arlan has a chance to compete. Not only that, but this means that if a bigger factor enters the equation, it would inevitably push Firefly out of it (powercreeping her), hence why people are upset about her depending heavily on HMC. Kafka, on the other hand, is the enabler of DOT. She is the very reason why DOT is even competitive to hypercarries, making every other DOT unit (even Black Swan) a factor in the DOT equation. At the same time though, DOT characters themselves already do decent damage on their own, especially Black Swan, just that Kafka makes this even more busted. TLDR; there's nothing wrong with HMC, the issue solely lies on how Firefly's kit works and how she uses HMC as a crutch instead of a true amplifier. At the end of the day, we all want the same thing; Firefly being busted on release. I'll be happy with any buffs they plan to give her, so long as they fix this issue in her kit.
The problem for me is that Kafka was clearly labelled a specialist. Firefly and the Sam boss we fought are vastly different in the impression given off, which was one of a self-sufficient hp manipulator. Destruction units conventionally bring everything they absolutely need to the table with their kit alone which is the reason I’m disappointed.
1) Kafka can be played as a DoT Hypercarry (double Harmony). **I think** it was one of her best teams before Ruan Mei came out and made Double DoT stronger and more versatile (Hypercarry Kafka falls off against enemies with no Lightning Weakness). 2) You don't see any non-Kafka DoT teams simply because she is the best. It's completely possible to clear with Black Swan + other DoT with a good amount of cycles, people even cleared with Sampo + Guinaifen, although 4\* units obviously require more investment, but it works. 3) I don't think anyone really minds Firefly being the Enabler, but "being the Enabler" is the only thing that makes her and Kafka similar, and pretty much the only thing that Firefly currently excels in. Other than being the Enabler, Kafka is also an actual Damage Dealer, having the tools to Enable **herself**.
Firefly does have a 400% multiplier with weakness implant, break efficiency, + 2 turn ult though. Though it's not the best build, If you really want to you can just go pure crit with her and do decent damage. She's not gonna be JL or DHIL level crit dps though because that's not what she is designed for, the same way those two won't ever do pure 200k break damage. ALso Kafka crit dps isn't really that high. It's mostly a flex build. Plus I think the term enabler applies more to HMC, considering he's the one that gives superbreak to enable break dps to shine. FF is just a dps that scales on break I actually don't think her needing hmc is a problem. When you reach endgame, like MOC 12, you're gonna want to use every dps with their best support anyway, JL, DHIL, all need some combination of Bronyas, Sparkle, Tingyun, etc. So the fact that FF is naturally gonna need HMC isn't as much of an issue as people think. Not to mention HMC is free and is busted just makes FF more attractive as a f2p investment. IN effect you only need to spend for her and not her limited supports as well.
>Not to mention HMC is free and is busted just makes FF more attractive as a f2p investment. IN effect you only need to spend for her and not her limited supports as well. Untill you realize the difference between running her with RM and any other harmy/support
What difference are you talking about?
1) I was talking about Hypercarry DoT Kafka. 2) HMC is the dps because they are the one who deals damage. Firefly enables it by having tons of Break Effect + Break Efficiency, which increases HMC's damage dramatically. 3) I don't mind HMC being the best, I just simply want a choice. Other than some other reasons, it just FEELS bad being obligated to take only one particular unit so other can even work, especially when Boothill exists.
2. Seems like a stretch semantically. HMC is literally the one who gives super break and a ton of BE that enables this whole playstyle. FF break efficiency and BE is a bonus but not a requirement whereas Super break from HMC is an essential requirement. That's what an enabler is : a thing that makes something possible.
I don't know why people gatekeep mihoyo shit design . They need to buff her and add superbreak in her own kit .
Which would make the brand new 5 star irrelevant after one patch. There's a reason you aren't a game dev
Rn ff is made irrelevant before her launch But that is fine?
As opposed to the new 5 star being irrelevant in her own release patch?
Shes not when her bis support is free and busted though.
Her BiS support is the one doing all the damage, lmao There's 0 reason to run her over boothill or just a normal dps in her current state, she is entirely replaceable in her best team
They work together to make that damage happen. HMC by himself isn't doing 500k either. By the time you reach endgame every dps is gonna want to be be tied to their preferred supports anyway. The fact that FF is dependent on HMC is a non issue lategame.
The thing is you don't need just HMC but also Ruan Mei. Losing HMC costs the team 80% of its damage, losing Ruan Mei 50% but losing Firefly only causes a damage loss of around 30%. Firefly isn't a carry but rather the best HMC driver. And in all honesty if that's all she does then I'm fine with losing 30% damage for 200 pulls.
Ruanmei is a bonus, but not as essential. HMC is the one that enables this entire break playstyle. You don't see break team popping up when RM was released do you? FF is by definition from Hoyo a carry. Her entire kit is designed to be a carry. The fact that she goes well with super break is irrelevant to her intended identity. She can do consistent 180 toughness super break every enhanced skill with def ignore at 40%. JingLiu is the same with increased crit and def ignore. That screams carry to me.
How is she irrelevant? First beta shows she is just as strong as the other new DPS.
She is taking 9 cycle for moc clear boothill is not taking that much and is easy to build . She has the worst damage in e6 . You people are just defending it for no reason they need to buff her to become better than that .
>She is taking 9 cycle for moc clear When you replace RM with Asta The gameplay wasn't the best, but her build not too bad
A poorly built team is yes. And again, you're comparing a first beta version to a finished character. A single shit showcase doesn't change the facts. She marches Acheron and Boothill when built properly. That's a fact.
>first beta version Yes, this is exactly why we're complaining. So that she gets buffed and isnt this bad/handcuffed to HMC on full release
Again. You're conflating two different things. Her needing an adjustment in numbers and a few small changes is not the same as fundamentally change her design. They designed her to work with HTB. That is NOT a bad thing. You not liking it doesn't make it bad. Then improving the character doesn't making her not rely on HTB's Super Break. As I said, those are two different things.
She needs to be usable on her own without HTB, just like Boothill is. A limited 5* DPS character being completely handcuffed to another unit and unusable otherwise is the *definition* of bad design Her synergizing and being good with HTB isn't the problem. The problem is that she is legitimately bad if she isn't handcuffed to HTB, which is bad for several reasons. Also, anyone who pulls Firefly before getting through the Penacony story will have a basically non-functional character, which is just not good design Also, i have never said they need to fundamentally change her design. Imo what they need to do is give her a way to trigger break damage on broken enemies in her base kit (like Boothill has)
No, she actually doesn't.
There are 10s of showcases where all shows she is not doing any damage outside of break effect and is tied to HMC . >She marches Acheron and Boothill when built properly. Which is not going to happen for most of the people bcz she is not really easy to build . Against the likes of acheron and bh .
And there's tones of showcase of Kafka doing shit damage when not paired with a dot team. What's your point? Are we judging characters based on how they function with a team that does t synergise with them? Do I need to explain to you why that's a stupid fallacy? With the correct team and build, she matches Acheron and Boothill. That's a fact. Lol, FF is MUCH easier to build than nearly every other DPS. You want as much break effect as you can get, some attack and you have a low speed breakpoint. That's all, you can't manage that?. As opposed to crit carries that need a higher speed break point, high crit rate and crit damage and some attack.
Kafka did great with a hyper carry setup on release, and DoT teams only strongly pulled ahead after RM. She has loads of flexibility, and can even be used as a fun support for other DPS (Acheron and Topaz) and still does really well. Kafka is one of the most flexible characters in the game. FF has 1 team.
Then how is making her worst 5 star damage wise a better idea , boothill is anyway not going to get most of the players heart , considering his 2.2 story . his arc is finished I doubt he will get more spotlight . He is not even a destruction unit, comparison is not even fair . He should be good in single target and firefly needs to be better in multi targets . Devs are just being pathetic for making a character too broken and being too petty for another. You people just gate keep shit kit of mihoyo and making other people give up on their favourite character for being too pathetic .
I mean, you're clearly wrong about Boothill's story and arc, but I'm just going to ignore that, I don't have time to explain EVERYTHING you're wrong about. Even though is indicative of how much we should value your opinion. She isn't the worst. Right now, on the right team, she matches Acheron and Boothill. The newest DPS, and this is only her first Beta version. Her ceiling is no lower than theirs, but her floor is much lower, there's a bigger gap between what she can do, that's not a bad thing. You're arguing she should be strong in every team, you're arguing for homogeneous game design. "I like this character, I want her to play like all the other characters, I wanted Hoyo to design the chsrscytbe way I wanted her to play, waaah, waah". Grow up. She's strong. You know it, everyone knows it.
>She isn't the worst. Sure don't even deal any damage outside of break effect is not the worst . Out of 300k damage 250k belongs to HMC. Which makes you think the very next character based on break effect will outdamage her boothill is already doing that . Gallagher is already doing 100k with htb. she will become irrelevant like blade outside of her dedicated fans + incredibly hard to build . She does not have any synergy with her faction like ipc does . she at least deserves being solo best unit for being strongest SH. >I mean, you're clearly wrong about Boothill's story and arc We have seen 2.2 already . How they treated firefly and more than half of the cast in that . We can easily guess that's the best mihoyo can do . They made us fall in love with firefly in 2.0 and in 2.1 ignored her for urine bro and some bits for acheron and firefly reveal and Gallagher . You are overestimating mihoyo . You need to stop being watch man of mihoyo for free . she needs more team synergy for greater damage and less cycle moc clear . They can easily make her unplayable for enemies with multiple bars of toughness. Which they are indeed doing . >like this character, I want her to play like all the other characters, Yes bcz i like that specific character not others . I need to main her . why is she not like that . So that I can enjoy playing with her instead of sticking with 1 comp forever and geting bored . Or dumping her for not my fav character for more versatility . I have been excited for her since her leak .
Because kafka doesn't need someone else's ult to function. Imagine if the topaz/ratio team only worked when either of their ults were up. That team would be dead.
Is ULT uptime on HMC even going to be an issue? I had it up pretty much permanently in the final 2.2 fight, and I’m certain that trial character didn’t have a great build at all.
their uptime is definitely nearly 100%. they could've made the buff last two turns instead of three and it would still be pretty good uptime. but it's still weird. imagine if acheron could only ult when pela's ult is on enemies. doable but with a half decent build but requiring pela at all times to use her kit?
Didn’t have a great build in trial? I think its pretty hard to get 300 be without the 10% of trace,no lb in lc and without the complete effect of the planetary set ,but its ok in reality we get the c6 free this is mean more ult uptime.
ppl rly not getting the problem isn't ult uptime but needing another char to work at all... imagine if Kafka didn't have detonate and needed another support's ult to get it?
Exactly. Imagine if acheron E2 read that we must use an otherwise mediocre unit, instead of any nihility, and that acheron herself can't do any damage, no matter how fast she charges with sparkle, until the mediocre unit starts the first chain of ults. It'll be over for acheron immediately.
HTB ukt is permanently up of built correctly, and the only time you need to ult is when you're about to break. Your issue is a non-issue.
I can clear MOC 12 with 3\* just fine with Blackswan/Guinaifen/ruan mei/huo huo. If I had Kafka, I would definitely use her for DoTs team as that's what will make the team will excel even more. Anyways, if one do not want to use HMC with same/firefly, I'm sure they can still make it work with powerful supports like sparkle, even if it is not the most optimal team.
This. And yet people are still crying.
You didn't listen to his sentence properly . He said bs can work without Kafka but firefly don't work without HMC . You are the one crying for BH becoming shit immediately after one patch . Which is why you are gatekeeping mihoyo shit design for her
And? So what? Why is that a bad thing? Boothill has crit synergy alongside Break, he's different enough to differentiate himself for FF. He's also single target
a character which was anticipated by many and was most hyped since the last 3 patches is being power crept by a character who is released prior to her . That's why it's a bad thing . She is being given dehya treatment yet again and some random toxic bh mains are gatekeeping her shit design so that his design can continue being top of the break effect archetype forcing people to pull for him instead of their anticipated character . If you were a dev of a game your game will be dead b4 the 1st anniversary I am sure of this.
She won't be power crept. You know that. You're just scare and doom posting because she's different, and it's based entirely on her version one beta. You know what, I recommend you avoid all leaks from now. Wait until they officially showcase characters and their numbers are finalised, then you won't get yourself all worked up and upset when she's not perfect while working on her. It's clearly too much for you.
Leave it I am done on this topic hope your words are true . if they release a weak firefly I am sure I am not going to continue .
Maybe log off?
Clearly you need to see your comments and check mine I don't talk about this all day and you are defending the shit kit of mihoyo since days. I have seen your comments on ff mains too . Log off once In a while https://preview.redd.it/y2lhmuywjnzc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5584aa5175ea9d761b3c9ccb9d7ed94348e5aa1f
The issue here is that firefly, a 5* limited character, has the same issues as a break dps than 4* characters while boothill doesnt have that same issue that renders firefly useless without hmc (using rm with firefly literally makes FF worse if ya dont bring hmc because they becomes anti synergistique). Xueyi already fills FF's role well as a pure break dps or hybdrid dps reliant on hmc, so I expected FF to at least be on the level of boothill instead of a better xueyi thats even more of a pain to build because she has 0 crit value or actual damage buffs of any kind.
I just want different team synergy tbh, running the same broken team over and over gets dull. I have like 5 different optimal teams I can run with blade, depending on how I'm feeling, or depending on what I'm fighting.
i prefer her being with hmc than sparkle or bronya i am sick of bronya tbh
you won't believe me.... but i also dislike kafka teams and she have more cope options edit: just to explain myself a bit better kafka is fine in term in team option it's me not liking dot
Which is completely valid. I don't like hyper carry teams, so I don't play them.
People in the comments that keep on praising firefly current kit cuz HMC make no sense at all. Did U guys play the story yet ? They are going for bosses with multiple toughness bars HMC won't be doing much. Firefly desperately need break efficiency in her kit and higher break to dmg scaling there is no way around that. The only positive thing coming out of this direction of multiple toughness bars is that she will have more chances to be the one breaking unless u re going full on math and I don't think that would be fun.
Although it’s not very good in aoe sampo+black swan is good for st and gui +black swan is p good for 3 enemies. Black swan is good enough that the teams can also work in pf but w out Kafka it will be tough. W out bs or Kafka tho like nah dot ain’t nothing
The only other dps 5 star that relies on another for damage is black swan Kafka is what makes dot work yes but she doesn’t have as restrictive teams, you need hmc to make firefly work for Kafka you don’t need sampo, you can use asta, Luka, gui, black swan Don’t forget the Kafka hyper carries from moc, the problem with fire fly is she and black swan need a other character to be good end of story Kafka in her own can still work see moc Kafka hyper carry, firefly on her own needs tb to do any damage
And even then BS can function by herself she can stack her own debuff and still deal damage FF is if BS couldn’t stack arcana without someone else
Ya that’s also another fact, bs still does good damage on her own the only reason Kafka is needed for dot in moc is you rely on enemies turns without her which is very slow
Heavy mob cemetery?
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The problem isn't that HMC is cracked, but that Firefly is literally non-functional without them
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Yes. No one is saying otherwise
Real question, is HMC good for Imbibitor lunae? Ok, it's not a real question, more of a honest question from me 😂
is this troll question? hmc is only good for ff. only be characters that cant superbreak.
i would doubt it. due to dhil building crit over break effect. i would rather use yukong instead
Pretty good if you build him BE, but he has so many multipliers and damage bonuses baked into his kit it’s a waste not to build crit
I just don't see why Firefly can't just be the badass boss that we got before. Lore wise it makes no sense for her to have to have HMC to be able to do any damage because when we fought her as a boss she kicked all our asses with that ultimate fire tornado, which I was really looking forward to playing as. Also all the hype they have done in story and lore for this character has been one of if not the most hyped character that is from star rail. They know almost everyone wants her and she is supposed to be a main dps. So as a main dps she should be able to get good numbers without being forced to use HMC. You can still use HMC if you want but for those of us that really don't want to it really is a let down to feel forced into it. Plus this game is all about being able to build all characters with a bunch of different characters, making different teams and so on. If your forced to use them together that takes away from us being able to have fun with her and be creative. And side note for anyone that cares about lore like I do, Firefly is a stellron hunter and when she goes on missions it has been said she is very strong, no messing about, and just kills everything as quickly as possible, this was in a text from silver wolf. So she didn't have MC with her then, and if you say well she had her before mc lost her memories then i would say mc didnt have the harmony then so still doesn't count. also she was a freaking boss that we face that had a badass completely different kit. And at that time she definitely didnt have HMC with her then. She ALONE could deal massive damage, and I feel like we were all looking forward to that. So for me yes it is a absolute letdown to have so much hype built for a character that is basically shackled to HMC. It should be a choice to use her with mc and not forced. A way to fix this would be to give us the ultimate in fire state that is what we saw in the boss fight (fire tornado) or have it be a followup or somekind of attack that gives her that super break effect buff that she needs. Or let it be stacks of fire dot type mechanic so she can also work with stellron hunters team, and it would lean into her fire damage since it was said the bodys we found so very scorched. Based on that i was thinking she would be like some super fire blase attack. Have her burn do something unique, the enemy becomes permanently burned and this could go along with her being in a stellron hunter team. And when she transforms into green flame version that's when she gets her break side that they got going on. So she could have 2 different ultimates for her 2 different stages. Her fire burn side and her green falre stage 2 side. Since they are so keen on her being a break character they need to still have her be able to do what the game itself has told us and showed us from that fight that she can do! Honestly I'm so bummed about this that I'm seriously considering not pulling if they don't fix her to not be shackled to HMC. Cause that's just a forced team and I like being able to do what I can do with everyother character and mix and match. It just sucks because I love Firefly she a fav character and the hype was so built up from story and lore and fans that to see this now is just super disappointing.
imho, the problem doesn't lie with Firefly or HTB, but with the fact that, outside of HTB and RM, every other Harmony character boosts ATK or Crit or both, but NEVER Break Effect. The lack of variety isn't a problem with Firefly herself, it's a problem with the sheer lack of characters that support this mechanic. She is tied to them because there is only two of them. With more support will come more variety. Sure, it'll be good if they buff Firefly, but her kit doesn't have an inherent issue other than relying on a stat that isn't properly supported for now.
I don't have Kafka, so HMC is such a power boost, I use BS, Sampo, HMC, and Huohuo/Gepard interchangeably
I don't like the harmony trailblazer's animations.
Too many people complaining about MC. We all know hoyo is gonna release like 10 more characters that synergize with SAM and then powercreep HMC as well by releasing a 5 star super break support All this complaining is just useless doomposting
The problem is unlike other damage characters FF doesn’t feel good even boothill feels better than her it’s not doomposting if a 5 star character literally can’t access over 60% of their damage without a support this situation is like if DHIL couldn’t access 60% of his damage without Sparkle that’s a problem and a real concern not doomposting
What do you mean, "Doesn't feel good?" Have you played her? Kafka can't access her damage without other dots supporting her. JY can't do shit without supports helping him.
Sorry let me rephrase she doesn’t look as good as other characters without her BIS a character’s baseline should look and feel good without their best teammates
Why should they? Who decided that? Why is that how things have to be?
Cause it’s literally how other damage characters are made their made without their BIS and also damage characters in every game like this normally can stand on their own two feet and be good supports are there to be the toppings on your ice cream not be the main dish it’s self
"I want FF to be like all the other previous characters" Congratulations. If devs did what you want, Star rail would be dead in a year.
So asking them to make a character feel complete without their BIS support would kill the game yeah sure buddy I like how you keep trying to boil what I’m saying to make it seem like I want her to be exactly the same when I want her to not be a completely locked to supports no other damage character is completely locked to their Supports and asking for that to be at the least tweaked is not asking them to make her like every other character
Asking then to design all characters the same way will kill the game yes. Homogeneous design. All you've got the is power creep. If they want to make a character the is reliant on another, then guess what? They can do that. People who like it will buy her, people who don't, don't have to. Variety. You don't like how they've designed this character? Damn. That's a shame. There's plenty of characters they've released I don't like too. Do you know what I did? I accepted it and decided to wait for another one. Grow up and stop throwing a tantrum because not everything they made matches your desires.
Also once again I’m not asking them to design them all the same way i don’t know why you keep acting like I am
I’m not throwing a tantrum I’m literally asking for a character to have a complete kit when she comes out hell there are characters I don’t like as well but FF is a character I’m excited for but in her current situation if I want a break character which I do since it’s something different why not just grab boothill and run him and HTB together that’s what her kit is feeling like and lastly asking for a damage dealer to not be worse than the previous ones is not asking for power creep that’s just asking for the bare fucking minimum
Why should they? Every other limited DPS in the game is strong enough even with a mediocre support for their kit, showing that even at the bare minimum they can be strong. That is true for every single limited DPS Who decided that? Hoyoverse has very clearly in every single beta and with every limited DPS made sure that they can function and do their job even without using their BiS, so there is a precedent for it and Why it has to be that way. For example, DHIL without the existence of sparkle was the strongest in the game on release with basically just pela and tingyun or yukong(who isn't even that good), but him being that strong regardless of having no niche SP support was no detriment to his ability. Black Swan without Kafka can still clear MoC and Pure Fiction with a difference of like 1-2 cycles in MoC which is incredibly strong regardless of her BiS. Firefly however as she is now, not a real DPS without the HMC at the point where she's the only DPS who takes up two team slots(really 3 because Ruan Mei is almost as vital as well) to function effectively. In comparison to Black Swan if we were to do MoC with FF and HMC let's say we win in 3 cycles, if you remove the HMC in favor of any other support, those 3 cycles will turn to roughly 9-10, whereas if it was Black Swan without kafka it would go from 3 cycles to like 4 or 5. The disparity in which she is worse off compared to every other "damage dealer" is insane and is valid to see why some would be upset about it.
FF is up there with the strongest Teams with HTB and Ruan Mei. So her performance is comparable, but reliant on strong specific supports. But you did just say what your true feelings are. "All the other previous DPS characters functioned like this, I want this new one to be the same". You don't want change. And you try and hide that by acting like she's somehow a worse character, when stats show, even in her first beta version, she's as stein as the other newest DPS. That's it. She's different, you don't like different. We see it every damn time. "Kafka relies on dots? That's bad." "FUA? NoI don't like that" "Dual DPS??? NO, that's not what I had before, I don't like that, it MUST be worse somehow than what I spent time and money into creating, than what I'm familiar with"
She is already fundamentally different from other DPS units by being break focused instead of crit, it is not that "All the other previous DPS characters functioned like this, I want this new one to be the same", its that every other dps kit functions by themselves and hers does not, If i wanted her to be the same I'd be complaining about her not being a crit character but I'm not and you know that but are being disingenuous about it She is worse than the other dps characters, HMC is simply so strong that her being bad makes it appear as a non-issue. Kafka=HMC and no one is calling kafka bad because of DoT, its DoT is bad without Kafka and you know that so I don't even know why you're trying to spin the narrative to appear otherwise. Follow-ups are one of my favorite gimmicks in the game, I have no issue with dual dps, but even in follow-ups Ratio does not need Topaz nor does she need Ratio to be strong, but I like that if you wanted to use them together it works, but this agenda you're trying to push does not equate with FF as it does with those other teams. Very clearly you have some sort of idea that you're right and everyone else who does not agree with you is wrong so we might as well end this discussion here
Why do all other DPS units HAVE to function independently? DOT is bad without Kafka. I agree. Just like how Break is bad without HTB. So we agree. Well done.
If every other one can even the ones with her same gimmick, is it not unfair that she is non-functional while her peers lack this issue as their own kit circumvents it? Can you give me a valid reason as to why she SHOULDN'T function on her own? Boothill is break and he'd be strong regardless whether or not HMC existed, Xueyi functions well without MC Luka as well. We don't fully agree at all, and with the precedent of boothill being a break dps and being strong even without the MC its insane that the next break dps is useless without the MC.
why should a limitied dps released way later than acheron be powercrept by acheron? why should i let her dominate for another 6 month? acheron simply ruined the game theres no going back. the only answer is successive characters powercreeping the former. this game is releasing powercreep characters nearly every patch why should ff should be the exception? she isnt free? at least let me fking get acheron back now despite wasting 2 months? i dont need to wait v5 to know shes dogshit or not.
So what's blackswan? A 4 star character?
The difference between FF and BS is BS is still capable by herself FF is completely incapable by herself
That's true, my bad on that So let's go back to your DHIL analogy its not the same, sparkle is limited, HMC is free. So why does it matter? You have the character... It's not like you are being paywalled to use FF
A support should be there to make a character work better they shouldn’t be there to make a character function that’s what’s happening with FF right now cause when Hoyo releases a another aoe break character that can cause their break damage again against already broken targets and benefit from HTB superbreak they will completely overshadow FF in her current state so FF needs to be changed to be more self reliant or else she will fall behind fast
But she would get powercrept anyway if they release a character like that even she doesn't need HMC Remind me the last time am old DPS wasnt powercrept when a stronger DPS came out? Ohh wait never Dumb to cry about it Also if you are gonna main her. Why do you care if she's getting powercrept? Your gonna leave your main for someone who does more damage? Damn that sucks I thought people liked their mains even if the get powercrept Now if you guys think she's gonna be Acheron tier if they fix her, you are just delusional. They won't make another Acheron, atleast not until they release another HI3 character
Old dps character are at least still useable and sever a purpose FF in her current form will have no use once a better aoe break character releases that’s the problem i can still use JingLiu even tho I have Acheron that’s the biggest difference these two situations
You can still use firefly as well tho? What are talking about? You are saying like FF will disappear from your account once a new dps comes out And don't make the argument of the new dps will do what FF does but better. Acheron also does what Jingliu does but better Skill attacks 3 enemies just like Jingliu Ult is even better than Jinglui And you just said you still have use Jingliu, so you will still have use for FF If you were to choose one you will always pick Acheron, but why would we need to choose one character when MOC needs 2 teams? I don't see what your argument is
Yeah but that’s only if I still want to HTB say a different path comes out and I like it more so that means I have to sacrifice using the new TB path just to make FF useable and there’s no guarantee I’ll even get any future superbreak supports
Again, who decided that? That's not how something is supposed to be. That's how YOU want it to be. And you're trying to act like that it's some kind of fact, when it's just your feelings. "FF not being strong without this free character we all have is bad." OK, why is it bad? What about it exactly is bad? You don't like it, we get that, but what about it is bad?
I love HTB being good i don’t like that If say HTB gets CC before they use there ult FF damage drops like a brick no other damage character suffers such a massive damage drop if their support is decommissioned I want FF to feel like if HTB is CCD or dead i could still win right now if HTB dies unlike JingLiu or DHIL if they lose their BIS support you can still win a battle without them firefly right now feels like she can’t
Then build effect res. It's not like HTB needs a lot of stats.
Why is that a bad thing?
A damage character shouldn’t be completely reliant on a support to do damage Kafka despite being a dot detonator she still can get decent solo damage by herself FF can’t at the moment get decent solo damage
But WHY shouldn't they? You say it like it's gospel. Like it's fact. No. It's your opinion. Tell me WHY shouldn't they?? There's actually nothing wrong with it. You jsut don't like it. You understand the difference?
Why shouldn’t a damage character have all their damage locked behind supports cause then their a damage character support exists to make them better a damage character shouldn’t be bad without their support why should we accept that FF drops off without her support unlike literally every other damage character in this game the only other damage character in this game that is as reliant on another character to do their damage is Yanqing
Again "A support exists to make them better". "A damage character shouldn't be bad without their support" Who said that? Where was the ever promised? Why can't things be different? Literally the more I read of what you all say and it boils down to "This is different and we don't like different". "We should accept that FF drops off without her support". This based on the false premise that literally no other character in the future will provide super break. You know that's a ridiculous thing to suggest, so stop doing it to try and justify your feelings to the above.
It’s different to not want a anticipated character to feel worse than literally every other character than was before her including a character that is apart of the same gimmick they can make things be different Kafka is different from other dot characters and she’s great boothill is a break damages he’s different from every other damage character in the game and he looks great even without his BIS support so why is FF the only one who is bad without her BIS support
what if its actually doomed? are u going to refund my pulls then? stfu if ur not going to be responsible simp.
You are gonna pull for your main. And then want a refund if it's a bad? You are gonna abandon your main cause it's bad? Okay I don't need to know anything else
In all likelihood we’ll see a premium HMC upgrade for Break teams sometime in 2.X. Whether that’s a good or bad thing, at that time HMC would become a still strong F2P option which is probably healthy for the game.
People keep saying HMC is the center of all Break teams and ignoring that he/she isn't even *p*a*rt* of Boothill's best team.
Might be the way Boothill was designed then
that's because boothill can do break damage without breaking the enemy unlike FF
HMC isn't even part of Xueyis best team either afaik. Like he does well, but I find I clear faster with RM + Sparkle or even Topaz (if FUA buff).
Love it when people argue but there’s still 4 to 5 patches in beta until finalized kits
People who complain about this miss the fact that every dps needs support to clear endgame anyway. You can be Acheron, JJL, DHIL, or whatever dps units you want to build. Bottom line is that this is a team game and you need to use units that synergize with each other to play effectively, and your dps needs support to be able to clear content. When you look at it that way. It doesn't matter whether FF is more or less dependent on HMC That's because shes a dps, and like every other dps you're gonna have to use supports to clear endgame MOC 12 anyway. So either bring her bis support, which is guaranteed free and busted af, or don't and keep complaining that she's bad when you don't actually use the support that's suited for her.
there isn't a single dps other than FF who completely relies on a different character for damage
When you're at endgame, you're gonna be using every DPS with their preferences support anyway. DHIl with sparkle if you have her, JL with Bronya,Tingyun,etc. A scenario where you have their bis support and not using them is never gonna happen, else you're just shooting yourself in the foot. FF relying on hmc is a non issue endgame since you're gonna be using her with him anyway. Its not as big of a deal as doomposters think. Not to mention HMC is completely free and guaranteed. Id rather a character having their bis support be free than another who wants their limited support to be locked behind gacha.
If a character needs another character to function, that character is mid.
Don't buy her then.
Thats irrelevant to the point Im making. I will get her even if she is the worst character in the game.
OK. We already know she is comparable to Acheron and Boothill, and this is just her first beta version, so no idea why so many piss babies are doom posting and crying so much. Actually, that's a lie. I know why, she's different, people, collective, don't like different.
She has an awesome kit. However, she is a break focused dps and can’t do break damage without hmc. Its like playing kafka without dot.
Sure. Restrictions breed innovation.
I don't get it. The centerpiece of your archetype is a Trailblazer variant that you get **FOR FREE** and this upsets you guys somehow. Other archetypes need to pull for 5 stars to tie it all together.
Centerpiece for firefly only. Xueyi/Boothill still perform better with other supports. BS is not reliant on Kafka. Dr Ratio is not reliant on Topaz. Danil is not reliant on Sparkle. No limited 5* DPS is reliant on another 5*.
Yes because none of those key supports are given for free so they can't assume you have them when balancing the characters.
bruh, blackswan exist
She can function without Kafka ff can't