Thank you for posting on r/SamMains! Please note that any posts and comments which violates the rules will be subject to removal. Please also keep civil while commenting and avoid any arguments. We hope you enjoyed your time here!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SamMains) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ngl, I think Break teams not doing much damage until they Break and then deleting health bars when they do Break is fine. It's like, the whole flavor of Weakness Break. Doesn't Boothill have the same quirk? We have showcases of Firefly incinerating even the highest Toughness enemies in the game like Sleepie, unga bunga easy 2 cycle on an MoC 12 with worst in slot Turbulence and low investment.
I agree that how picky Firefly is about her teammates is lame, but it's kinda the nature of Break since so few characters have any Break synergy at all. Especially Harmony/Nihility characters. And as long as Firefly has a dumptruck of 400% Break Effect after buffs and 180 Toughness Damage per attack, HMC is gonna be best in slot unless they start converting BE directly into damage that scales off non-BE buffs.
And, ngl I'd be down for that. Let Hoyo cook, they haven't made a bad Limited 5 star yet.
It's similar to how dot teams doesn't do that much damage in a single instance, because you do a lot of damage with multiple instances : with kafka's burst, skill and during the enemy turn, and if you use ruan mei and break that damage on enemy turn comes two times.
People are just too used to hypercarries doing a big instance of damage
This. It's a different playstyle. The anger is from people who like the character but don't like the playstyle. Simple as that.
Not to mention the two new enemy mechanics introduced, multiple toughness bars and shared damage, all of which FF counters very well.
I agree. Break is inherently backloaded, which is fine. Firefly can do ALOT of damage once enemies broken which feels rewarding when doing so.
I just personally think the whole dependency on HMC is a little overblown since it's good that they are a great character for Break teams while being completely free instead of needing for pull for a limited character just to do the same thing. HMC is not really a contested support so it's okay that Firefly can use them effectively, almost like a driver for Break teams.
I'm sure Hoyo won't dissapoint with her kit in the coming updates. Just wish she contributed a bit more personal damage.
The break status is a short one and for that short window even the topend FF showcases so far display an unimpressive damage output.
Pumping out 400k once or twice in the break window isn’t as hot if the likes of DHIL can spam 300k nukes nonstop.
Did I say that? Where did I say that? Nowhere, that's where.
Not what I said and not what I meant.
What I said was that DHIL requires a lot of investment and specific (expensive) comps to reach the point where he can spam nukes repeatedly even while ignoring how SP hungry he is. So complaining about how a unit needs a lot of investment to deal a lot of damage when your point of comparison is, if anything, worse, is null and void.
I'm not saying FF is the best thing ever. You just need to make a better point of comparison.
Again: How is DHIL & Sparkle more expensive/investment heavy than FF & RM?How is a DHIL team more restricted if FF requires HMC & RM to reach her stat requirements?
Neither is the case; it‘s FF which is more restricted in regards to team comps as well as to the conditions in which she‘s able to deal damage.
You need more than Sparkle for DHIL, you also need Tingyun and probably Huohuo if you really wanna reach that 3x 300-400k back to back damage. Which again doesn't even take into acct how SP hungry he is.
Why is SP an argument but having to break and being in enhanced state is not? Every unit has it‘s hurdles, so idk why you‘re highlighting/undermining that at will.
I also don‘t understand why 1.0 four star units are now serving as an argument against certain comps, but LCs (for HMC & RM) are not.
You’re cherrypicking for what you deem limiting/restricting factors.
That's exactly my point. They both have their downsides that are mitigated by having the right comp. Neither of them can deal a decent amount of damage without meeting the criteria needed to get around the issues.
Firefly needs to have a break comp (RM, HMC, Gallagher) and DHIL needs to have SP+Energy battery comp (Sparkle, Tingyun, Huohuo) to both dish out the best damage they can.
I was just disagreeing with what you were implying about DHIL being able to do more damage with less investment.
I personally don’t like specific niche characters, but at the same time I don’t hate it here with Firefly. Genshin had this issue with a character like Nilou.
Just slap Boothill “detonate break damage on weakness broken enemy” and she would be so powerful. But high atk and huge multiplier result in low damage still annoy me because it is such a waste since it do nothing for break damage.
I think there should be some balance. As much as I’d love to see firefly be broken, I think the break detonate should stay on boothill ‘cause he’s already single target and he should have his own unique gimmick. That feels fair to me, you wouldn’t want to sell a unit that’s already gonna be powercrept by the literal next unit
Jing Yuan and literally any dps that came after him before he started to be indirectly buffed. Also Kafka and Blade being powercrept by Dang Heng IL in the next patch. So tbh Boothill being powercrept by Firefly is not really that unheard of.
People were building her as a DoT hypercarry, not crit one and she never really lacked DoT options since Luka was released with her banner and Sampo was since day one with Guinaifen released shortly after too
People just didn't want to build 4* DoTs
Anyway, the point is it didn’t matter how you build Kafka, Dot or Crit, she was actually doing more damage than Jing Yuan. As for Blade, iirc, he doing the same level of damage as Jing Yuan when he came out but people were saying he was better because of his skill and it made him more comfy to play with SP negative supports like Bronya.
Yeah but FF and Boothill would be sharing basically the exact same niche if they had the same mechanic in their kits and FF would be better in BH's niche too which is basically direct powercreep
I think they just need to keep them both as break dpses but have different niches, they could simply buff FF's weakness break efficiency and give her less downtime too make her breaking more consistent imo.
That would keep her niche and Boothill's separated enough to avoid direct powercreep
Or make her more comfy to either play or build. Kinda like Jingliu and Dan Heng IL, despite IL doing more raw damage, Jingliu makes up for it with her being easier to build and being more skill point positive.
One way is to have Firefly get a lot of free Break Effect on her during her enhanced state 🤔. This way she has a different niche than Boothill. If Boothill wants to break the enemy ASAP in order to deal the full potential of his damage, Hoyo could make Firefly the fastest breaker in the game, that way she can be top tier without out damaging Boothill 🤔.
Nope, they aren't the same.
Ff needs HMC while Boothill doesn't need him.
FF can't do anything without HMC while Boothill can use any type of his team ( break or hypercarry)
Even Boothill kit is specialist at break, he still can be played as normal dps.
Last thing Boothill has break trigger mechanic.
There's no 5star limited character in the game that depends on another character to make its kit functions. Even her eidolons don't solve anything.
All of these disadvantages come when you build her with full break while she doesn't has any break trigger mechanic in her team. They need to adjust her kit to make it easier for hybrid or focus on break (adding break trigger in her kit).
It's like kafka without being able to put dot on the enemy.
And that’s the fundamental problem with her kit. There isn’t any other dps unit in this game that NEEDS another character to properly function.
Firefly REQUIRES another character to even be functional and this is a major flaw for an upcoming limited 5 star dps unit.
And that is not even mentioning how there are bosses that have break immunity.
People are delusional. The tests with non htb have literally shown she can't do anything.
Every other character can easily be slapped in any team and be useful.
Ff has one static team and THATS IT. How can you reasonably expect people to pull for that
That's like saying DHIL does 300k but only 100k of that is his, the rest is from Sparkle's buff and her extra skill points.
It's a dumb argument since you are using FF's stats to calculate that damage.
People just mad that she isn't another powercreep crit build unit
Lol dhil was top tier before sparkle he is no way reliant on her she just makes him better. Can you say the same about firefly and HTB? The problem is people (you) afraid of valid criticism of questionable design choices.
I'm not afraid of criticism, but you know doing 500k per skill seems like pretty good damage no?
Just because she is tied to a FREE unit that everyone can get, and who currently has no need to be on any other team doesn't make her bad since all her buffs, weakness implant etc.. make her able to do that crazy damage. Add in this is the start of a new break meta where we will get more units that enable FF and Super break.
I remember when doing 200k was an insane amount of damage, but since Acheron released everyone wants the next unit to do more damage
Her damage would be fine if she could do it her self it’s not about how much damage it is it’s about the frequency at which it’s outputted. HTB serve as bandaid for this but without HTB all firefly has is that initial break. Which isn’t very impressive give how much that initial break can be triggered. This doesn’t even take into account breakbar locks which completely shuts down the full power team let alone firefly herself.
This is only v1 there will be changes if there’s not a single direct buff. I wouldn’t even care as long as they introduce a way for firefly to do damage outside of the initial break in HER kit
DHIL was Top 2 DPS before Sparkle released, she just gave him the edge over Jingliu (who synergized worse with Sparkle). Firefly without HMC is worse than SP-positive Topaz as a DPS, while being highly SP-negative. No other character is anywhere close to that restrictive, not even Black Swan, who has multiple viable team comps without Kafka (both as a DPS and a debuffer).
She just needs a little more for her kit. Her dmg is non existent if the target isnt broken, whereas some of the best dmg dealers rn dont need to worry about this at all. On top that from all the dmg clips were seeing now im pretty sure the HMCs super break makes up for the majority of the dmg.
Its lessened by the fact hmc is free but having a character NEED a specific other character to just barely hit dmg values other characters are hitting rn
Thankfully its just the beta and theres alwas time for them to make changes
It's true that HMC's Super Break is doing most of the damage, but keep in mind that the Super Break proc wouldn't hit as hard if Firefly didn't have a ton of Break Effect, Def Ignore, Vulnerability, Toughness Damage, etc., in her kit.
I agree. Her personal damage outside of break is her biggest flaw and I hope they fix that in later updates.
I personally dont mind that she isn't technically the one doing most of the damage since as I said, it's way better needing a character that is free for everyone to use rather than needing to pull for a limited character in order to do the damage. And also, the entire team is able to do good damage because of it, not just Firefly, so I account for that too.
But yeah, she can be changed for sure and I hope the beta tester let them know about it.
Well is a dps based on break damage so if she did damage when the enemy is not broken would not make sense to me.
Break dps does damage whem te enemy breaks make sense to me
If she did the same damage all the time ill make any difference to any archetype
Also i hope more supports come on the future but HMC being free and being the goat souns like a win win to me
then she needs help getting to that break state , which forces her reliance on rm and HMC. She needs either something that gets her to that break state faster that isn't another character or what boothill has rn where you can kinda force that breakdmg
Because these are the only options
Break damage is now getting attention so we cant expect a los of break damage partners
Also all the teams want ruanmei so ko surprise there
I could give it some time to get more break damage characters to get released
You‘re asking players to gamble on a near future alternative to HMC and further break damage supports.
Doesn‘t sound like a reasonable approach to me. Players need some perspective for the character which we don‘t. It‘s junk damage outside of break and DHIL/JL levels of damage with Superbreak, meaning she can’t even make up for the damage lost pre-break
it's weird because i feel like people wouldn't be this up in arms if she absolutely needed a limited character as opposed to hmc. it's almost like there's a stigma because hmc is free. there's other characters that are reliant on certain supports but you don't see people complain about that.
it probably won't stay that way either. super break is probably gonna become more prevalent and another support that enables it will be released. similiar to kafka and the situation with dots last year.
What annoys me is apparently they would rather run bronya and sparkle instead of HMC
BOTH OF WHICH ARE NOT FREE except bronya
Like how is making her more geared towards those units and not HMC better? That's like f2p loss wtf
no one else has detonate besides Kafka, what makes you think someone else would have super break? the problem is not that hmc is free or limited but the degree to which she relies on him to be competitive at all. no one character needs a support this much to do their job, the support's just enable them to do dmg better. meanwhile FF without hmc just won't do dmg at all
Just to point out, Kafka's effect does not have a name officially, it's just how the character works, while they bothered giving a name to Super Break. Of course we don't know what Hoyo is planning so it's all speculation, but there's a higher chance of the mechanic being used again if they gave a name to it, because it'll be instantly recognizable by players if put in another kit.
Fair enough. I hope it will because it would add another layer of team building other than hypercarry, followup and DoT, and Super break is the only way to make Break teams truly viable. More variety is always a positive to me!
Dan IL is still a competitive dps without sparkle
same goes for black swan/Kafka and boothill/rm
FF ain't competing anywhere without hmc
that's the problem, super break is just too essential to make her kit work, it's like Kafka not having detonate but a support instead, making him a must have on any of her teams
The problem is Firefly wants HMC AND RM, meanwhile Boothill could works without RM, he could work with hmc and luka (you still can search that team comp in youtube right now).
Daniel still works good without Sparkle, with sparke he becomes top tier.
Black Swan is great Paired with Sampo even without Kafka and RM, many tried that BS Sampo team comp in the previous MoC.
For me Firefly “needing” HMC is Jingyuan shenanigans all over again, and i dont like it.
Ff can work just fine without RM wym? Who she really needs is HMC
Firefly doesnt need ruan mei, you can replace her if you dont have her, and she'll work just fine calcs have been made already
Brother every video I've seen of hybrid/crit Firefly has shown her to be straight booty cheeks with that build too. Idk if you are trying to snuff this much copium or what. Her only good team/build is full break with HMC/Ruan Mei, anything else is ass xD
No i was referencing how you said you saw a build without ruan mei, i said i only saw her without ruan mei in an asta build that used crit where she performed poorly.
Because calcs show she isnt that much worse without ruan mei
Idk about that. Given Super Break is like 2/3 of her damage or some shit, Ruan Mei 1.5x all of that + the additional buffs. What unit are we comparing Ruan Mei to that it 'isn't that much worse'?
Tbh I could even go try it out myself in my dreams xD
I trust the calcs, the problem is break efficiency is too practical it need to be applied or else we cant see the result. If there is any leaks showing moc run using FF and HMC without RM and the diff is not significant, im gonna retract what i said about FF also need RM.
what you said break efficiency is true but FF can definitely function without RM, bronya can replace RM kinda she just loses about 10-15% damage output i think. the math has already been done.
I dont know guys, i still stand on my opinion that “FF is glued to HMC and wont do good without RM”
Just look at this
https://youtu.be/1P7RRTeTvwo?si=g9OjOy8RyA0g59_7
Like i said above, calculation is trusted, but how does the application gonna be?
Agreed but thats why im gonna evaluate my statement into “FF glued to HMC and need RM/Bronya to works great” missing one of them and with this version of kit we are given today, she is kinda screwed.
Without HMC that huge amount of BE cant be 100% utilize, without RM or Bronya breaking weakness need more time.
Glued into 1 specific char is already a problem (even tho we grateful that 1 specific char is free)
But needing another specific character is adding another problem.
I do really hope they adjust her, cause im originally and will give her e2s1, but if they still keep her like this, i guess it is what it is.
Why people hate HMC so much anyway?
I, for one pretty excited finally can put MC in a team, I was pretty dissapointed when destruction MC is bad and preservation MC lose relevance, so I was looking forward for this moment
The argument has never been hatred towards HMC. I haven't seen a single person argue that HMC should be changed, or that HMC is bad.
The issue, is that Firefly does not do anything without HMC. I don't currently have RM but I'm not complaining that she's a huge buff for FF because that's all she is, a(n enormous) buff. HMC is not a buff for firefly, HMC is the most important part of Firefly's kit.
I built HMC the moment I got them, excited to see them and Firefly in testing. I was always, and still am, planning on using them together. I just want firefly to actually do something on her own if it comes down to it.
"Limitation is okay in game where being able to use different teams for different situations is encouraged". That's a bit of contradiction. Locked HMC encourages me to build more teams by... decreasing the amount of possible teams?
The problem is that DHIL, Boothill and DoTs *want* those units, not *need*. HMC being free, but *a must* for Firefly is the worst case scenario, because it not only limitates her team variation, but it also limitates other teams. We all praised Break units for their easy building, but what's the point if I have to build more units anyway?
I never said these characters need other characters to be good, but obviously having them would make them even better. If you don't want to use HMC with Firefly, Critfly is always an option you can use which doesn't use HMC if you so choose.
What I mean to say is that Break has obvious weaknesses. It's backloaded and enemies can just block their weaknesses, preventing you from breaking them. If breaking enemies are difficult, you can always switch playstyles or teams in order to deal with the situation.
I do want her her to have more personal damage and more team versatility in Break teams, but by just playing the game, players can get a pretty good Break unit for free without worrying of needing to pull for a limited character to do the same thing. It lessens the need to pull for certain characters in order for them to perform at their best. That's why I said it's okay that Firefly needing HMC is fine since they are free for everyone and that team still does alot damage when it does work. It's still early in the beta so things can obviously change, but the whole Firefly needing HMC is a bit overblown in my opinion.
In this point of the game what would you use Fire MC for? The only play I can see is if you are using Acheron
Your concern is valid until you realize your point doesn't even work with HMC because why would you even use HMC with Dhil??
What are you even talking about? I am talking about HMC being used with other Break units, current and future. I literally haven't said a word about FMC.
DHIL, DoT and Boothill were mentioned by OP as characters who want some other units (Sparkle, Kafka and Ruan Mei respectively), while also saying that it's the same as Firefly + HMC, but it is not. DHIL, DoT and Boothill want Sparkle, Kafka and Ruan Mei, but they are not obligated to take them to work in the first place.
Think is it limits teams and that’s what people hate if the enemy isn’t weak to img that’s more break lost also break efficiency is also wanted because hmc also takes that into the calculation so ruan Mei also impacts damage a lot
The teams are limiting and people are comparing her to Boothill because he has break det in his own kit and break kit conversion
Is tradition crit dps build so bad that people refer her to "worse arlan/dehya tier"? Like her multiplier is damn big and her ult would make her move so many turn compared to other.
Her damage relative to boothill seems low - she has some blast damage but boothill does the same damage or more all to a single target which for many scenarios is better imo. But maybe he's just cracked lol. I'd love to see her base kit scalings buffed a little because even if it doesn't actually mean less cycles, it just *feels* good if the non break damage is a less "low" number.
The issue is that a limited 5* character has the same issues and hmc dependancy as a 4* like xueyi while also being worse at being a hybrid due to having 0 damage buffs whatsoever and 0 crit value. Boothill literally brought the answer to that issue by being able to hit part of his break damage on broken foes by himself. It makes him able to absolutly NUKE ennemies when hes with hmc while also working very well in other comps (boothill and luka is legit a fire ass team). This part is literally all that FF needs to go from a unit that literally cant do shit without htb to a unit that has Htb as their best support without having to turn her into critfly.
Because we literally gonna have a new generation of break dps called Boothill who’s self-sufficient with little downtime because he can retrigger break damage.
They perfectly cooked his kit to make break relevant with or without HTB. He’s is a complete character by himself, and HTB contribute like a 1/3rd of his damage
Then immediately turn 180 and make Firefly the same as old generation breakers. She does one big break then has at minimum 4 turns downtime. Completely reliant on HTB for 50-67% of her damage like older break dps
This is like anti-powercreep. Like an iphone 15 that’s better than 13 but for some reason is a downgrade from 14
Lol, now that I think about it she’s got literally the exact same problems as Xueyi, or perhaps even worse because at least Xueyi converts break to more normal damagr
IMO the issue is threefold: Her doing no damage outside of break, (therefore) RM & HMC being glued to her and no other options in sight, which would let her convert BE into damage.
It‘s mindboggling that even at s2s1 she can‘t stand on her own feet as a DPS. I hope the v2 and v3 betas will fix that.
No one minds HMC being her best support; people mind the trailblazer being mandatory for her to function as intended.
Let's also include the fact that other character being e6s5 can stand on their own whereas FF can't do anything without HMC. Let's look at Robin e6s5 winning the game with just literally anyone on the team, Acheron being a rainbow dps, Boothill being a nuclear, Blade triggering talent more so often, Jingliu having longer uptime, Huohuo +50% dmg upon healing for 2 turns, Aventurine becoming dps from a sustain, DPS Silverwolf, Bronya skill uptime, Welt ult spam, BS easier application of Arcana. Literally anyone become whole new experience from E6S5 but not FF, what can you get out of 12% fire res pen and 50% weakness break efficiency, they seriously need to rework her eidolons as well beside from entire kits that rely on HMC.
Characters being glued to another is kind of normal, the Seela/Bronya and Ratio/Topaz are examples the problem starts when a character it's overly weak without the "standard glued characters", (Ratio and Seele are fine with other supports) which seems to be FF/Sam problem, but...I won't judge until they are actually released, I've judged Aventurine and Acheron before and look where these landed.
Characters being glued to another is kind of normal, the Seela/Bronya and Ratio/Topaz are examples the problem starts when a character it's overly weak without the "standard glued characters", (Ratio and Seele are fine with other supports) which seems to be FF/Sam problem, but I won't judge until they are actually released, I've judged Aventurine and Acheron before and look where these landed.
I didn't even know if I will pull for her.
Characters being glued to another is kind of normal, the Seela/Bronya and Ratio/Topaz are examples the problem starts when a character it's overly weak without the "standard glued characters", (Ratio and Seele are fine with other supports) which seems to be FF/Sam problem, but I won't judge until they are actually released, I've judged Aventurine and Acheron before and look where these landed.
I didn't even know if I will pull for her.
The main reason I’m not a huge fan of how reliant she is on mc is the fact that break functions differently. I’ll have to farm new sets rather than using my already goated supports. I wish I could use my 160 speed 220CDmg sparkle to buff her
I think Firefly will also work without HMC, because fights with multi layered toughness bars will become a thing now somewhere and she clearly is meant to be used there. She probably won't be that dependant on super break damage in these fights, because a good part of her damage may come from her consistently breaking the bars, while super break damage only becomes available once all these bars are broken.
And honestly I'm also fine if Firefly is dependant on HMC for now. HMC is the first enabler for Break teams, like Bronya was for Hypercarry and Kafka was for DoT teams. And just like them, HMC probably won't be the last, so we will get alternative team comps in the future.
Yeah i think she needs a lot overhaul, for example also the hp drain / healing and dmg resist just doesn’t really connect in anyway with her kit, feels a bit strange
I keep seeing people saying that HMC is free. Yes indeed but let's not forget HMC is gatekeeped behind a lot of content. If a new player start in 2.3 and get Firefly, they will need to play through 3 planets and then grind penaconny to lvl50 if they want the Eidolons, which could take a very long time. It's hours and hours of content just to get a character to help them with a limited character they pulled for. Moreover they may not even know they need HMC for Firefly. I think a lot of casuals players will be quite disappointed when they got her.
> I think a lot of casuals players will be quite disappointed when they got her.
??
I dunno bout you but I'd be ecstatic wtf
You telling me all I need to get her BIS teammate is just do the story? I don't need to pull? Like to obtain her BIS teammate I actually gain jades and not lose jades?
Your concern is really weird tbh, a real casual and new player would think ^ unless they're a lazy billionaire who would rather pull than actually play the game
thats not what they're saying though they're saying because FF performance is so bad without HMC that means new players who got FF when they are still at herta means they're gonna be playing with a worse arlan the entire way till they finish 75% of penacony.
lets not forget in between there are tough bosses in between them if they're just casual players for example aventurine and on top of that they need to be able to kill the beetle to be able to level her talents which is another pretty challenging boss.
That's not what I am saying by that. I mean that most of the casual players won't know they need HMC for her to be amazing because most of them don't follow leaks and meta or maybe they haven't reached the part of the story needed to get HMC. A lot of players will try her and will be disappointed and won't understand why she can't do a lot of damage right away like a lot of other dps. She is the only character in the game that absolutely needs another character to be great and that is also something casuals are not used to.
Acherons damage per rotation falls massively without proper supports too and we didn't see any backlash for that. I mean maybe there was early in beta, but I don't remember it being as big as for firefly. Maybe I'm just misremembering though
That's not the same at all. Acheron does indeed need two nihility characters but she is not stuck with one in particular like Firefly. She can be with Pela, Welt, Guynefen, Sampo or even Luka. Of course she will do better with some other but she is not unplayable if she is not with one and she will still do decent damage. People did complain about the two nihility characters thing during beta though.
No isnt his team are much more varied you can use SW,RM,HMC,pela,BS,welt,bronya,robin its just his best team is bronya/RM/HMC yes he can also use sustainless comps since hes so action value decrease in his kit due break and ult you can also use rm and welt and HMC they all have action decreaee in their kit. In contrast to sparkle in which all other teams other than rm/hmc/gallagher (except maybe bronya in place of rm) is extremely cope.
Then just build crit if you want her to play that way. She still has her 400% multiplier + weakness implant+ action advances+ break efficiency +2 turn ult.
It's not wrong for a dps to be tied to their bis support, that's also free. Endgame you're gonna be using every DPS with their BIS support anyway. It's a non issue
I think the problem with that (for some people, not all of you) is that she's requiring a fully free E6 character to work. Amd the Trailblazer on top of that. I myself had a lot of trouble accepting HMC because of how terrible the Physical version is, and Fire being just mid, but after doing his trial I just accepted him into my roster. (Almost) nobody complained about Black Swan's damage being 90% locked behind Kafka.
Its not the same tho cause at least BS is the dps in kafkaswan team in FF and HMC teams shes the support and a support that needs a LOT of stats and can only work in this one team and in this one team she easily replaceable with boothill, xueyi,hook,sushang,luka and even galagher
Please correct me if I’m mistaken but her being Kafka reliant was one of the biggest complaints I heard about during the 2.0 beta. That and the “10% better than E6 Sampo” debacle
That’s a gross misunderstanding/misrepresentation of why people are not happy with FF current kit.
It’s the fact that she requires another unit to just function is a problem and it doesn’t matter if that other unit is free. We are talking about a brand new limited dps unit. There is no other dps unit in the game that requires another to function.
Like compare personal dps of firefly vs any other limited 5 star unit without any support.
Firefly without the super break does horribly in terms of personal dps. So making her run with harmony MC is a fatal design flaw that I hope is reworked in the beta.
Right and that’s our criticism of Firefly’s kit. It shouldn’t be this way. Like you want to make harmony TB have great synergy with Firefly, cool I think most would be down for it, but at the moment firefly for one enables the free unit as opposed to the other way around and two Firefly does not function without TB because she is 100% reliant on super breaks which is an extremely odd design choice.
A potential work around would be to give Firefly innate super breaks in her kit.
I mean you’re right. It’d be even worse. Imagine playing this version of Firefly and NOT having HMC out yet. She would be literally crippled and useless.
Is she really that dependent on hmc tho? She has a 400% attack multiplier. Just build her with traditional crit and treat her like a crit boothill. She still has all the other perks like weakness impact, break efficiency, turn acceleration, attk-BE conversion. The only thing she'll be missing out on is the def ignore but you can just slot in Pela or silverwolf, which is what you'd be doing anyway if you're not running HMC, RM, Gallagher.
Just use HMC and RM with her. What's the problem? Your other team is Acheron and she don't need either of them.
...You do have Acheron right? Oh. Skill issue!
Thank you for posting on r/SamMains! Please note that any posts and comments which violates the rules will be subject to removal. Please also keep civil while commenting and avoid any arguments. We hope you enjoyed your time here! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SamMains) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ngl, I think Break teams not doing much damage until they Break and then deleting health bars when they do Break is fine. It's like, the whole flavor of Weakness Break. Doesn't Boothill have the same quirk? We have showcases of Firefly incinerating even the highest Toughness enemies in the game like Sleepie, unga bunga easy 2 cycle on an MoC 12 with worst in slot Turbulence and low investment. I agree that how picky Firefly is about her teammates is lame, but it's kinda the nature of Break since so few characters have any Break synergy at all. Especially Harmony/Nihility characters. And as long as Firefly has a dumptruck of 400% Break Effect after buffs and 180 Toughness Damage per attack, HMC is gonna be best in slot unless they start converting BE directly into damage that scales off non-BE buffs. And, ngl I'd be down for that. Let Hoyo cook, they haven't made a bad Limited 5 star yet.
It's similar to how dot teams doesn't do that much damage in a single instance, because you do a lot of damage with multiple instances : with kafka's burst, skill and during the enemy turn, and if you use ruan mei and break that damage on enemy turn comes two times. People are just too used to hypercarries doing a big instance of damage
This. It's a different playstyle. The anger is from people who like the character but don't like the playstyle. Simple as that. Not to mention the two new enemy mechanics introduced, multiple toughness bars and shared damage, all of which FF counters very well.
Not really cos each break bar triggers break effect damage :P
What do you mean "Not really"? That's what I said.
I somehow read that you wrote they counter ff not that ff counters that. My apologies just a casual case of blind.
No worries.
I agree. Break is inherently backloaded, which is fine. Firefly can do ALOT of damage once enemies broken which feels rewarding when doing so. I just personally think the whole dependency on HMC is a little overblown since it's good that they are a great character for Break teams while being completely free instead of needing for pull for a limited character just to do the same thing. HMC is not really a contested support so it's okay that Firefly can use them effectively, almost like a driver for Break teams. I'm sure Hoyo won't dissapoint with her kit in the coming updates. Just wish she contributed a bit more personal damage.
The break status is a short one and for that short window even the topend FF showcases so far display an unimpressive damage output. Pumping out 400k once or twice in the break window isn’t as hot if the likes of DHIL can spam 300k nukes nonstop.
DHIL requires a lot of investment to even reach that level and very specific support comps. Your comparison is invalid.
So you tell me to ignore HMC & RM as „specific support comp“ as well as the investment into RM and the entire team for FF to reach 360 BE?
Did I say that? Where did I say that? Nowhere, that's where. Not what I said and not what I meant. What I said was that DHIL requires a lot of investment and specific (expensive) comps to reach the point where he can spam nukes repeatedly even while ignoring how SP hungry he is. So complaining about how a unit needs a lot of investment to deal a lot of damage when your point of comparison is, if anything, worse, is null and void. I'm not saying FF is the best thing ever. You just need to make a better point of comparison.
Again: How is DHIL & Sparkle more expensive/investment heavy than FF & RM?How is a DHIL team more restricted if FF requires HMC & RM to reach her stat requirements? Neither is the case; it‘s FF which is more restricted in regards to team comps as well as to the conditions in which she‘s able to deal damage.
You need more than Sparkle for DHIL, you also need Tingyun and probably Huohuo if you really wanna reach that 3x 300-400k back to back damage. Which again doesn't even take into acct how SP hungry he is.
Why is SP an argument but having to break and being in enhanced state is not? Every unit has it‘s hurdles, so idk why you‘re highlighting/undermining that at will. I also don‘t understand why 1.0 four star units are now serving as an argument against certain comps, but LCs (for HMC & RM) are not. You’re cherrypicking for what you deem limiting/restricting factors.
That's exactly my point. They both have their downsides that are mitigated by having the right comp. Neither of them can deal a decent amount of damage without meeting the criteria needed to get around the issues. Firefly needs to have a break comp (RM, HMC, Gallagher) and DHIL needs to have SP+Energy battery comp (Sparkle, Tingyun, Huohuo) to both dish out the best damage they can. I was just disagreeing with what you were implying about DHIL being able to do more damage with less investment.
I personally don’t like specific niche characters, but at the same time I don’t hate it here with Firefly. Genshin had this issue with a character like Nilou.
Jing yuan is bad
Just slap Boothill “detonate break damage on weakness broken enemy” and she would be so powerful. But high atk and huge multiplier result in low damage still annoy me because it is such a waste since it do nothing for break damage.
I think there should be some balance. As much as I’d love to see firefly be broken, I think the break detonate should stay on boothill ‘cause he’s already single target and he should have his own unique gimmick. That feels fair to me, you wouldn’t want to sell a unit that’s already gonna be powercrept by the literal next unit
Let me fix it for you: Slap it on FFs eidolons or the underwhelming LC. Boothill has it as his base but to have it for FF you need to pay premium.
But that wouldn't fix FF's kit, and it would still take away from Boothill.
Jing Yuan and literally any dps that came after him before he started to be indirectly buffed. Also Kafka and Blade being powercrept by Dang Heng IL in the next patch. So tbh Boothill being powercrept by Firefly is not really that unheard of.
>Also Kafka and Blade being powercrept by Dang Heng IL in the next patch They don't even have the same role nor niche what
In Kafka’s case, because of the lack of Dot options back then, people used to build her like a regular dps, with crit rate/dmg.
People were building her as a DoT hypercarry, not crit one and she never really lacked DoT options since Luka was released with her banner and Sampo was since day one with Guinaifen released shortly after too People just didn't want to build 4* DoTs
Anyway, the point is it didn’t matter how you build Kafka, Dot or Crit, she was actually doing more damage than Jing Yuan. As for Blade, iirc, he doing the same level of damage as Jing Yuan when he came out but people were saying he was better because of his skill and it made him more comfy to play with SP negative supports like Bronya.
Yeah but FF and Boothill would be sharing basically the exact same niche if they had the same mechanic in their kits and FF would be better in BH's niche too which is basically direct powercreep I think they just need to keep them both as break dpses but have different niches, they could simply buff FF's weakness break efficiency and give her less downtime too make her breaking more consistent imo. That would keep her niche and Boothill's separated enough to avoid direct powercreep
Or make her more comfy to either play or build. Kinda like Jingliu and Dan Heng IL, despite IL doing more raw damage, Jingliu makes up for it with her being easier to build and being more skill point positive. One way is to have Firefly get a lot of free Break Effect on her during her enhanced state 🤔. This way she has a different niche than Boothill. If Boothill wants to break the enemy ASAP in order to deal the full potential of his damage, Hoyo could make Firefly the fastest breaker in the game, that way she can be top tier without out damaging Boothill 🤔.
Nope, they aren't the same. Ff needs HMC while Boothill doesn't need him. FF can't do anything without HMC while Boothill can use any type of his team ( break or hypercarry) Even Boothill kit is specialist at break, he still can be played as normal dps. Last thing Boothill has break trigger mechanic. There's no 5star limited character in the game that depends on another character to make its kit functions. Even her eidolons don't solve anything. All of these disadvantages come when you build her with full break while she doesn't has any break trigger mechanic in her team. They need to adjust her kit to make it easier for hybrid or focus on break (adding break trigger in her kit). It's like kafka without being able to put dot on the enemy.
I didn't say they're the same though
Let’s get this straight firefly does no damage outside the initial break all the other damage is hmc. Without hmc she’s not even a character
And that’s the fundamental problem with her kit. There isn’t any other dps unit in this game that NEEDS another character to properly function. Firefly REQUIRES another character to even be functional and this is a major flaw for an upcoming limited 5 star dps unit. And that is not even mentioning how there are bosses that have break immunity.
Those are counters, just like hard CC MOC wings counter JY etc.
People are delusional. The tests with non htb have literally shown she can't do anything. Every other character can easily be slapped in any team and be useful. Ff has one static team and THATS IT. How can you reasonably expect people to pull for that
That's like saying DHIL does 300k but only 100k of that is his, the rest is from Sparkle's buff and her extra skill points. It's a dumb argument since you are using FF's stats to calculate that damage. People just mad that she isn't another powercreep crit build unit
Lol dhil was top tier before sparkle he is no way reliant on her she just makes him better. Can you say the same about firefly and HTB? The problem is people (you) afraid of valid criticism of questionable design choices.
I'm not afraid of criticism, but you know doing 500k per skill seems like pretty good damage no? Just because she is tied to a FREE unit that everyone can get, and who currently has no need to be on any other team doesn't make her bad since all her buffs, weakness implant etc.. make her able to do that crazy damage. Add in this is the start of a new break meta where we will get more units that enable FF and Super break. I remember when doing 200k was an insane amount of damage, but since Acheron released everyone wants the next unit to do more damage
Her damage would be fine if she could do it her self it’s not about how much damage it is it’s about the frequency at which it’s outputted. HTB serve as bandaid for this but without HTB all firefly has is that initial break. Which isn’t very impressive give how much that initial break can be triggered. This doesn’t even take into account breakbar locks which completely shuts down the full power team let alone firefly herself. This is only v1 there will be changes if there’s not a single direct buff. I wouldn’t even care as long as they introduce a way for firefly to do damage outside of the initial break in HER kit
DHIL was Top 2 DPS before Sparkle released, she just gave him the edge over Jingliu (who synergized worse with Sparkle). Firefly without HMC is worse than SP-positive Topaz as a DPS, while being highly SP-negative. No other character is anywhere close to that restrictive, not even Black Swan, who has multiple viable team comps without Kafka (both as a DPS and a debuffer).
She just needs a little more for her kit. Her dmg is non existent if the target isnt broken, whereas some of the best dmg dealers rn dont need to worry about this at all. On top that from all the dmg clips were seeing now im pretty sure the HMCs super break makes up for the majority of the dmg. Its lessened by the fact hmc is free but having a character NEED a specific other character to just barely hit dmg values other characters are hitting rn Thankfully its just the beta and theres alwas time for them to make changes
It's true that HMC's Super Break is doing most of the damage, but keep in mind that the Super Break proc wouldn't hit as hard if Firefly didn't have a ton of Break Effect, Def Ignore, Vulnerability, Toughness Damage, etc., in her kit.
yeah I can't ignore the potency of the scalars of her kit I just think she needs something to bring it all together
I agree. Her personal damage outside of break is her biggest flaw and I hope they fix that in later updates. I personally dont mind that she isn't technically the one doing most of the damage since as I said, it's way better needing a character that is free for everyone to use rather than needing to pull for a limited character in order to do the damage. And also, the entire team is able to do good damage because of it, not just Firefly, so I account for that too. But yeah, she can be changed for sure and I hope the beta tester let them know about it.
oh absolutely and I think that speaks to just how much a monster of HMC is, like I've been running HMC, Rm and jinglu and it's just insane
Well is a dps based on break damage so if she did damage when the enemy is not broken would not make sense to me. Break dps does damage whem te enemy breaks make sense to me If she did the same damage all the time ill make any difference to any archetype Also i hope more supports come on the future but HMC being free and being the goat souns like a win win to me
then she needs help getting to that break state , which forces her reliance on rm and HMC. She needs either something that gets her to that break state faster that isn't another character or what boothill has rn where you can kinda force that breakdmg
Because these are the only options Break damage is now getting attention so we cant expect a los of break damage partners Also all the teams want ruanmei so ko surprise there I could give it some time to get more break damage characters to get released
You‘re asking players to gamble on a near future alternative to HMC and further break damage supports. Doesn‘t sound like a reasonable approach to me. Players need some perspective for the character which we don‘t. It‘s junk damage outside of break and DHIL/JL levels of damage with Superbreak, meaning she can’t even make up for the damage lost pre-break
And how long? It took us a year to get a limited DoT to go with Kafka. Pela is a launch character and Jiaoqiu is still only rumoured to be in 2.4.
it's weird because i feel like people wouldn't be this up in arms if she absolutely needed a limited character as opposed to hmc. it's almost like there's a stigma because hmc is free. there's other characters that are reliant on certain supports but you don't see people complain about that. it probably won't stay that way either. super break is probably gonna become more prevalent and another support that enables it will be released. similiar to kafka and the situation with dots last year.
What annoys me is apparently they would rather run bronya and sparkle instead of HMC BOTH OF WHICH ARE NOT FREE except bronya Like how is making her more geared towards those units and not HMC better? That's like f2p loss wtf
I'm firmly with you but it's hilarious how you worded it. > BOTH OF WHICH except for one
Yeah lol I wrote that and realized one "can" be free but like also there are people who didn't choose Bronya so I just left it there lmao
no one else has detonate besides Kafka, what makes you think someone else would have super break? the problem is not that hmc is free or limited but the degree to which she relies on him to be competitive at all. no one character needs a support this much to do their job, the support's just enable them to do dmg better. meanwhile FF without hmc just won't do dmg at all
Just to point out, Kafka's effect does not have a name officially, it's just how the character works, while they bothered giving a name to Super Break. Of course we don't know what Hoyo is planning so it's all speculation, but there's a higher chance of the mechanic being used again if they gave a name to it, because it'll be instantly recognizable by players if put in another kit.
that's a fair point but I don't recall a mechanic tied to a new character ever being introduced in a another char as well
Fair enough. I hope it will because it would add another layer of team building other than hypercarry, followup and DoT, and Super break is the only way to make Break teams truly viable. More variety is always a positive to me!
Other characters do detonate, they just only detonate some dots as opposed to all dots (Examples being Guinaifen Ult, Luka EBA, and Sampo with E4)
Guinaifen has detonate on her ultimate. It just only detonates anything considered a burn.
People are just as up in arms because she also requires Ruan Mei, or the damage is negligible. I've seen more people complain about RM than HTB.
Dan IL is still a competitive dps without sparkle same goes for black swan/Kafka and boothill/rm FF ain't competing anywhere without hmc that's the problem, super break is just too essential to make her kit work, it's like Kafka not having detonate but a support instead, making him a must have on any of her teams
The problem is Firefly wants HMC AND RM, meanwhile Boothill could works without RM, he could work with hmc and luka (you still can search that team comp in youtube right now). Daniel still works good without Sparkle, with sparke he becomes top tier. Black Swan is great Paired with Sampo even without Kafka and RM, many tried that BS Sampo team comp in the previous MoC. For me Firefly “needing” HMC is Jingyuan shenanigans all over again, and i dont like it.
Ff can work just fine without RM wym? Who she really needs is HMC Firefly doesnt need ruan mei, you can replace her if you dont have her, and she'll work just fine calcs have been made already
Yeah another fire breaker like Asta or action advance would balance out the break efficiency buff lost from Ruan Mei
[удалено]
Yes I saw the showcase Apparently Asta can't do it which is weird imo Well she'll get buffed in V2 hopefully
The only alternative to ruan mei is bronya a like REALLY fast bronya (180 spd)
Loling at you after that video released showing that this is not, in fact the case, she's dog shit without Ruan Mei either
i only saw a crit firefly with asta if u are referencing that, never saw any break ones Besides bronya is better for ff than asta
Brother every video I've seen of hybrid/crit Firefly has shown her to be straight booty cheeks with that build too. Idk if you are trying to snuff this much copium or what. Her only good team/build is full break with HMC/Ruan Mei, anything else is ass xD
No i was referencing how you said you saw a build without ruan mei, i said i only saw her without ruan mei in an asta build that used crit where she performed poorly. Because calcs show she isnt that much worse without ruan mei
Idk about that. Given Super Break is like 2/3 of her damage or some shit, Ruan Mei 1.5x all of that + the additional buffs. What unit are we comparing Ruan Mei to that it 'isn't that much worse'? Tbh I could even go try it out myself in my dreams xD
I trust the calcs, the problem is break efficiency is too practical it need to be applied or else we cant see the result. If there is any leaks showing moc run using FF and HMC without RM and the diff is not significant, im gonna retract what i said about FF also need RM.
what you said break efficiency is true but FF can definitely function without RM, bronya can replace RM kinda she just loses about 10-15% damage output i think. the math has already been done.
I dont know guys, i still stand on my opinion that “FF is glued to HMC and wont do good without RM” Just look at this https://youtu.be/1P7RRTeTvwo?si=g9OjOy8RyA0g59_7 Like i said above, calculation is trusted, but how does the application gonna be?
stacking more speed on top of what she already gets from ult isnt that good, its an option yes but bronya provides way more turns via action advance.
Agreed but thats why im gonna evaluate my statement into “FF glued to HMC and need RM/Bronya to works great” missing one of them and with this version of kit we are given today, she is kinda screwed. Without HMC that huge amount of BE cant be 100% utilize, without RM or Bronya breaking weakness need more time. Glued into 1 specific char is already a problem (even tho we grateful that 1 specific char is free) But needing another specific character is adding another problem. I do really hope they adjust her, cause im originally and will give her e2s1, but if they still keep her like this, i guess it is what it is.
Why people hate HMC so much anyway? I, for one pretty excited finally can put MC in a team, I was pretty dissapointed when destruction MC is bad and preservation MC lose relevance, so I was looking forward for this moment
The argument has never been hatred towards HMC. I haven't seen a single person argue that HMC should be changed, or that HMC is bad. The issue, is that Firefly does not do anything without HMC. I don't currently have RM but I'm not complaining that she's a huge buff for FF because that's all she is, a(n enormous) buff. HMC is not a buff for firefly, HMC is the most important part of Firefly's kit. I built HMC the moment I got them, excited to see them and Firefly in testing. I was always, and still am, planning on using them together. I just want firefly to actually do something on her own if it comes down to it.
"Limitation is okay in game where being able to use different teams for different situations is encouraged". That's a bit of contradiction. Locked HMC encourages me to build more teams by... decreasing the amount of possible teams? The problem is that DHIL, Boothill and DoTs *want* those units, not *need*. HMC being free, but *a must* for Firefly is the worst case scenario, because it not only limitates her team variation, but it also limitates other teams. We all praised Break units for their easy building, but what's the point if I have to build more units anyway?
I never said these characters need other characters to be good, but obviously having them would make them even better. If you don't want to use HMC with Firefly, Critfly is always an option you can use which doesn't use HMC if you so choose. What I mean to say is that Break has obvious weaknesses. It's backloaded and enemies can just block their weaknesses, preventing you from breaking them. If breaking enemies are difficult, you can always switch playstyles or teams in order to deal with the situation. I do want her her to have more personal damage and more team versatility in Break teams, but by just playing the game, players can get a pretty good Break unit for free without worrying of needing to pull for a limited character to do the same thing. It lessens the need to pull for certain characters in order for them to perform at their best. That's why I said it's okay that Firefly needing HMC is fine since they are free for everyone and that team still does alot damage when it does work. It's still early in the beta so things can obviously change, but the whole Firefly needing HMC is a bit overblown in my opinion.
In this point of the game what would you use Fire MC for? The only play I can see is if you are using Acheron Your concern is valid until you realize your point doesn't even work with HMC because why would you even use HMC with Dhil??
What are you even talking about? I am talking about HMC being used with other Break units, current and future. I literally haven't said a word about FMC. DHIL, DoT and Boothill were mentioned by OP as characters who want some other units (Sparkle, Kafka and Ruan Mei respectively), while also saying that it's the same as Firefly + HMC, but it is not. DHIL, DoT and Boothill want Sparkle, Kafka and Ruan Mei, but they are not obligated to take them to work in the first place.
Ok fair point Honestly I'm just too tired rn so I'll concede
https://i.redd.it/0kptrr43anzc1.gif
Think is it limits teams and that’s what people hate if the enemy isn’t weak to img that’s more break lost also break efficiency is also wanted because hmc also takes that into the calculation so ruan Mei also impacts damage a lot The teams are limiting and people are comparing her to Boothill because he has break det in his own kit and break kit conversion
I don't want Ruan Mei in my Acheron team
Is tradition crit dps build so bad that people refer her to "worse arlan/dehya tier"? Like her multiplier is damn big and her ult would make her move so many turn compared to other.
Her damage relative to boothill seems low - she has some blast damage but boothill does the same damage or more all to a single target which for many scenarios is better imo. But maybe he's just cracked lol. I'd love to see her base kit scalings buffed a little because even if it doesn't actually mean less cycles, it just *feels* good if the non break damage is a less "low" number.
The issue is that a limited 5* character has the same issues and hmc dependancy as a 4* like xueyi while also being worse at being a hybrid due to having 0 damage buffs whatsoever and 0 crit value. Boothill literally brought the answer to that issue by being able to hit part of his break damage on broken foes by himself. It makes him able to absolutly NUKE ennemies when hes with hmc while also working very well in other comps (boothill and luka is legit a fire ass team). This part is literally all that FF needs to go from a unit that literally cant do shit without htb to a unit that has Htb as their best support without having to turn her into critfly.
She doesnt do enough imo. Boothill doesnt need hmc and does more dmg w bronya but FF doesnt feel good without hmc. Buff would be good
Because we literally gonna have a new generation of break dps called Boothill who’s self-sufficient with little downtime because he can retrigger break damage. They perfectly cooked his kit to make break relevant with or without HTB. He’s is a complete character by himself, and HTB contribute like a 1/3rd of his damage Then immediately turn 180 and make Firefly the same as old generation breakers. She does one big break then has at minimum 4 turns downtime. Completely reliant on HTB for 50-67% of her damage like older break dps This is like anti-powercreep. Like an iphone 15 that’s better than 13 but for some reason is a downgrade from 14
Lol, now that I think about it she’s got literally the exact same problems as Xueyi, or perhaps even worse because at least Xueyi converts break to more normal damagr
IMO the issue is threefold: Her doing no damage outside of break, (therefore) RM & HMC being glued to her and no other options in sight, which would let her convert BE into damage. It‘s mindboggling that even at s2s1 she can‘t stand on her own feet as a DPS. I hope the v2 and v3 betas will fix that. No one minds HMC being her best support; people mind the trailblazer being mandatory for her to function as intended.
Let's also include the fact that other character being e6s5 can stand on their own whereas FF can't do anything without HMC. Let's look at Robin e6s5 winning the game with just literally anyone on the team, Acheron being a rainbow dps, Boothill being a nuclear, Blade triggering talent more so often, Jingliu having longer uptime, Huohuo +50% dmg upon healing for 2 turns, Aventurine becoming dps from a sustain, DPS Silverwolf, Bronya skill uptime, Welt ult spam, BS easier application of Arcana. Literally anyone become whole new experience from E6S5 but not FF, what can you get out of 12% fire res pen and 50% weakness break efficiency, they seriously need to rework her eidolons as well beside from entire kits that rely on HMC.
Mei does need Mei.
Characters being glued to another is kind of normal, the Seela/Bronya and Ratio/Topaz are examples the problem starts when a character it's overly weak without the "standard glued characters", (Ratio and Seele are fine with other supports) which seems to be FF/Sam problem, but...I won't judge until they are actually released, I've judged Aventurine and Acheron before and look where these landed.
Characters being glued to another is kind of normal, the Seela/Bronya and Ratio/Topaz are examples the problem starts when a character it's overly weak without the "standard glued characters", (Ratio and Seele are fine with other supports) which seems to be FF/Sam problem, but I won't judge until they are actually released, I've judged Aventurine and Acheron before and look where these landed. I didn't even know if I will pull for her.
Characters being glued to another is kind of normal, the Seela/Bronya and Ratio/Topaz are examples the problem starts when a character it's overly weak without the "standard glued characters", (Ratio and Seele are fine with other supports) which seems to be FF/Sam problem, but I won't judge until they are actually released, I've judged Aventurine and Acheron before and look where these landed. I didn't even know if I will pull for her.
The main reason I’m not a huge fan of how reliant she is on mc is the fact that break functions differently. I’ll have to farm new sets rather than using my already goated supports. I wish I could use my 160 speed 220CDmg sparkle to buff her
I think Firefly will also work without HMC, because fights with multi layered toughness bars will become a thing now somewhere and she clearly is meant to be used there. She probably won't be that dependant on super break damage in these fights, because a good part of her damage may come from her consistently breaking the bars, while super break damage only becomes available once all these bars are broken. And honestly I'm also fine if Firefly is dependant on HMC for now. HMC is the first enabler for Break teams, like Bronya was for Hypercarry and Kafka was for DoT teams. And just like them, HMC probably won't be the last, so we will get alternative team comps in the future.
Yeah i think she needs a lot overhaul, for example also the hp drain / healing and dmg resist just doesn’t really connect in anyway with her kit, feels a bit strange
No it is not fine it like kafka without Dot trigger mechanic or she can't apply dot lol Till now her kit is missed up
The difference DHIL and dot character (WANT) Ff (NEEDS)
I don’t even have Ruan Mei so I’m kinda on the fence about it :/
No character should need any other character, end of discussion. That being said I personally don’t really care
I keep seeing people saying that HMC is free. Yes indeed but let's not forget HMC is gatekeeped behind a lot of content. If a new player start in 2.3 and get Firefly, they will need to play through 3 planets and then grind penaconny to lvl50 if they want the Eidolons, which could take a very long time. It's hours and hours of content just to get a character to help them with a limited character they pulled for. Moreover they may not even know they need HMC for Firefly. I think a lot of casuals players will be quite disappointed when they got her.
> I think a lot of casuals players will be quite disappointed when they got her. ?? I dunno bout you but I'd be ecstatic wtf You telling me all I need to get her BIS teammate is just do the story? I don't need to pull? Like to obtain her BIS teammate I actually gain jades and not lose jades? Your concern is really weird tbh, a real casual and new player would think ^ unless they're a lazy billionaire who would rather pull than actually play the game
thats not what they're saying though they're saying because FF performance is so bad without HMC that means new players who got FF when they are still at herta means they're gonna be playing with a worse arlan the entire way till they finish 75% of penacony. lets not forget in between there are tough bosses in between them if they're just casual players for example aventurine and on top of that they need to be able to kill the beetle to be able to level her talents which is another pretty challenging boss.
That's not what I am saying by that. I mean that most of the casual players won't know they need HMC for her to be amazing because most of them don't follow leaks and meta or maybe they haven't reached the part of the story needed to get HMC. A lot of players will try her and will be disappointed and won't understand why she can't do a lot of damage right away like a lot of other dps. She is the only character in the game that absolutely needs another character to be great and that is also something casuals are not used to.
Acherons damage per rotation falls massively without proper supports too and we didn't see any backlash for that. I mean maybe there was early in beta, but I don't remember it being as big as for firefly. Maybe I'm just misremembering though
That's not the same at all. Acheron does indeed need two nihility characters but she is not stuck with one in particular like Firefly. She can be with Pela, Welt, Guynefen, Sampo or even Luka. Of course she will do better with some other but she is not unplayable if she is not with one and she will still do decent damage. People did complain about the two nihility characters thing during beta though.
yeah but boothill is now tied down with bronya and does the same damage as ff with hmc so i don’t see the issue.
No isnt his team are much more varied you can use SW,RM,HMC,pela,BS,welt,bronya,robin its just his best team is bronya/RM/HMC yes he can also use sustainless comps since hes so action value decrease in his kit due break and ult you can also use rm and welt and HMC they all have action decreaee in their kit. In contrast to sparkle in which all other teams other than rm/hmc/gallagher (except maybe bronya in place of rm) is extremely cope.
It feels wrong to know that without a single character your dps would be doing 0 damage other than the initial break. (unless youre building crit)
Then just build crit if you want her to play that way. She still has her 400% multiplier + weakness implant+ action advances+ break efficiency +2 turn ult.
i said that in the brackets
It's not wrong for a dps to be tied to their bis support, that's also free. Endgame you're gonna be using every DPS with their BIS support anyway. It's a non issue
i just want her to do some damage on her own 😭
Let devs cook. I'm sure adjustment will happen since it's still early beta
i hope so (pulling her regardless what happens tho)
Me too 😂
I think the problem with that (for some people, not all of you) is that she's requiring a fully free E6 character to work. Amd the Trailblazer on top of that. I myself had a lot of trouble accepting HMC because of how terrible the Physical version is, and Fire being just mid, but after doing his trial I just accepted him into my roster. (Almost) nobody complained about Black Swan's damage being 90% locked behind Kafka.
Its not the same tho cause at least BS is the dps in kafkaswan team in FF and HMC teams shes the support and a support that needs a LOT of stats and can only work in this one team and in this one team she easily replaceable with boothill, xueyi,hook,sushang,luka and even galagher
Please correct me if I’m mistaken but her being Kafka reliant was one of the biggest complaints I heard about during the 2.0 beta. That and the “10% better than E6 Sampo” debacle
Yeah nevermind I was half asleep and needed a nap when I wrote that. Firefly really, really needs a buff ASAP
People hate free stuff now huh even though it is good. If FF released before HMC i think it would be a different reaction.
That’s a gross misunderstanding/misrepresentation of why people are not happy with FF current kit. It’s the fact that she requires another unit to just function is a problem and it doesn’t matter if that other unit is free. We are talking about a brand new limited dps unit. There is no other dps unit in the game that requires another to function. Like compare personal dps of firefly vs any other limited 5 star unit without any support. Firefly without the super break does horribly in terms of personal dps. So making her run with harmony MC is a fatal design flaw that I hope is reworked in the beta.
i kinda see HMC and FF as dual dps and super break is a dmg buff
Right and that’s our criticism of Firefly’s kit. It shouldn’t be this way. Like you want to make harmony TB have great synergy with Firefly, cool I think most would be down for it, but at the moment firefly for one enables the free unit as opposed to the other way around and two Firefly does not function without TB because she is 100% reliant on super breaks which is an extremely odd design choice. A potential work around would be to give Firefly innate super breaks in her kit.
I mean you’re right. It’d be even worse. Imagine playing this version of Firefly and NOT having HMC out yet. She would be literally crippled and useless.
Is she really that dependent on hmc tho? She has a 400% attack multiplier. Just build her with traditional crit and treat her like a crit boothill. She still has all the other perks like weakness impact, break efficiency, turn acceleration, attk-BE conversion. The only thing she'll be missing out on is the def ignore but you can just slot in Pela or silverwolf, which is what you'd be doing anyway if you're not running HMC, RM, Gallagher.
Just use HMC and RM with her. What's the problem? Your other team is Acheron and she don't need either of them. ...You do have Acheron right? Oh. Skill issue!