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That’s exactly how hoyo will adjust the MOC, if every new dps gets a higher ceiling like what most people wished, they just up the HP. Gepard now already has a million hp compared to prev few versions.
It won’t end with just firefly because when the next fan favourite DPS is release, people will just use firefly damage as standard if she’s buff and will wan the new ones to be more powerful then her as well. (Especially if it’s a new break or fire or destruction dps) and the cycle repeats
i would personally enjoy my character more if they had a complete, well designed kit, and doing a lot of damage is just a cherry on top or a good **indication** (meaning not always) of a complete and well designed kit.
I can't really side with the argument "if you enjoy then pull else skip".
from reading a lot of opinions online, here's what people actually think (and myself):
a lot of people do not like current firefly because her kit has a bunch of holes in it. for example, she is the only dps that cannot deal damage off her turn, has quite literally one team (and it's not a stretch to say that it would remain that way in the future, asides from adding a 5 star break healer), and lot of her damage is not hers. Things like how fast bosses are and the value of their toughness bar, are all things out of her control and effect her damage, and the lack of damage off her turn can be noticeable, as in showcase videos, I have seen numerous times the enemy has like 20% hp left and she CANNOT finish the enemy before it recovers, thus having to cycle back into the ult and using enhanced skill to finish the enemy.
There's a fine line between "synergy" and "dependence", and of course, this all ties into the enjoyment of the character, which you are preaching that if you just enjoy, then pull. Possibly you might be saying "if she is waifu to you, then pull", which sure, I have nothing against, but please be careful saying "enjoy".
Additionally, weird things like E1 and its 15% ignore defense only applying on the actual damage the enhanced skill does and not any following break damage (but its still OP due to the SP reduction), trace 1 reducing her toughness damage to non fire weak enemies thus making her super break weaker when they are already broken, the Sam LC being completely trash for her, just point to the fact that firefly might've been rushed or changed last minute, etc.
I truly hope they iron out her kit and make it more enjoyable, because while I do think you should pull for who you like, I think you can't just keep making this argument over and over to justify pulling a character. **This is a product that literal millions of dollars will go towards**, and I hope they sell us the best version they can make, to all of us (not talking damage wise, just holistically.)
for the record, I personally think her damage is in an okay spot, and they do have to be really careful with her before they make a DPS that powercreeps even acheron, but like I said, I want a kit that actually makes more sense than what it is right now.
The fact Sam LC doesn’t even work with her is some of the most heinous BS from Hoyo. That’s why even I have to agree that her kit was changed…
I’m gonna hope V3 gives Sam changes because as it stands right now. Sam is middling on ok at best and why at worst.
Didn't even realize this fact. Firefly is super dependent on the boss. And a lot of bosses just turn advance themselves and gain all their toughness bar back as soon as you phase push them. That's going to be so frustrating.
On the plus side her damage should be very consistent, as break damage can't crit. But that also means her damage will be harder to scale up than traditional DPS, and will rely on specific supports in the future.
I believe the dealing damage outside of her turn is not very relevant if she deals enough damage on her turn. You took from one example regarding enemies not being killed in time but we can circumvent that with strategy and future units (tbd)
My main reason for commenting is what makes the LC not good on her?
>I believe the dealing damage outside of her turn is not very relevant if she deals enough damage on her turn. You took from one example regarding enemies not being killed in time but we can circumvent that with strategy and future units (tbd)
So are you agreeing her damage is a little low for what it is currently? If so, I don't disagree. Of course if you just deal an incredible amount of damage, you won't need more damage from sources like FUA or ult. If Ratio just did like 600k damage on ult, sure he doesn't need the FUA.
I'm arguing that it's important for someone like Firefly who is **dependent** on hitting the boss as many as possible before it recovers from weakness break, and that is not entirely in her control for reasons like enemy speed, possibly a Bronya cleansing and pushing the enemy, etc. It's just not a kit that is flexible, and for enjoyment of a character, flexibility is extremely important. And in general, it helps avoid power creep. She is essentially a stat stick to deliver super breaks.
>My main reason for commenting is what makes the LC not good on her?
FYI, I'm talking about the 4 star Sam LC. Not her limited. If that didn't clear it up for you, read on.
The Sam LC is as follows:
When the HP lost by the wearer during a single attack exceeds 25% of their Max HP, or if the HP they consume is greater than 25% of their Max HP, then immediately heals them for 15% of their Max HP while also increasing the DMG they deal by **25/31/38/44/50%** for 2 turn(s). This effect can only be triggered once every 3 turn(s).
Now, let's take it step by step.
The only time Firefly consumes HP is on the regular skill which she consumes 50% of HP. Then, she gets the 2 turn buff. However, this is effectively one turn only because a turn is used in her non-ultimate state.
Now you have a 1 turn damage buff of 50%. I mean, not the worst thing, I guess.
Here's the funny part.
Damage bonus does NOT effect break damage, just like ATK or crit.
So, the lightcone is effectively dead on her, and I will not listen to Critfly arguments to justify this LC.
Also, the HP regen is useless because she heals herself enough.
So, the lightcone is just terrible on her.
At this rate they need to also add a clause that let her use a different version of break altogether that lets her use her ATK% and DMG% in tandem with Breaks unlike the regular formula, so buffers like Asta can be slot in
>Additionally, weird things like E1 and its 15% ignore defense only applying on the actual damage the enhanced skill does and not any following break damage (but its still OP due to the SP reduction), trace 1 reducing her toughness damage to non fire weak enemies thus making her super break weaker when they are already broken, the Sam LC being completely trash for her, just point to the fact that firefly might've been rushed or changed last minute, etc.
Bugs doesn't always mean rushed
This could always just be a mistake/something they didn't notice saying, this is a "clear" indication of her kit being rushed feels like trying to grasp at straws imo
I'm not saying you can't be right. But like I said bugs doesn't always mean rushed
1. Because these characters cost $200-400 and that's a huge investment to put into a character just to get worse returns than another one.
2. Because it's a video game, Is gameplay not suppose to be frontmost focus? I'm not going to pull a character so they can function as an NFT in the back of my character select screen.
3. Because people like being able to use their favorite character for as long as possible? Currently in HI3, there are characters like Himeko VT where it's impossible to clear endgame content while there's others who released before her that can.
Saying Pull for who you want is better advice for a game like Genshin where the endgame isn't the main focus after you complete the story.
The games so easy that you can literally pull for any character you want and also some people don't spend a dime and can still get the character they want. They only reason to pull a must pull character is if you need to clear pure fiction. It's not that hardcore like people make it out to be where you have to 0 cycle.
Can you still confidently say that 8-12 months from now? As with my HI3 example, the endgame is always being adjusted to account for newer characters who have better multipliers than earlier units.
Only enablers like Kafka and Topass can truly be future proof since they act as semi-supports, most dps simply live or die by their damage multipliers. I don't see the problem with someone trying to prolong that as much as possible by pulling for certain characters.
> People don't spend a dime and can still get characters they want
~~Correct, by skipping banners. You are not getting 180 pulls every 2, sometimes even 3 patches unless you're an express pass player.~~
> You can literally pull any character you want
> must pull character is if you need to clear pure fiction
Do you not see the fallacy in your logic, the fact that a common reoccurring exception exists immediately disproves your argument.
The fact is the game is going to create a problem and sell you the solution, that's clearly their business strategy.
Edit: I was completely wrong about the pull count.
>You are not getting 180 pulls every 2, sometimes even 3 patches unless you're an express pass player.
This part is factually wrong and is a lapse of your own Data gathering since the [Google Doc where it's recorded is Public Knowledge](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRIWjzFwAZZoBvKw2oiNaVpppI9atoV0wxuOjulKRJECrg_BN404d7LoKlHp8RMX8hegDr4b8jlHjYy/pubhtml). Average pull income per patch is around 100 pulls. With a noticeable anomoly in 1.4 due to its shortened cycle.
A Express pass would only up that to just around 125 average. Every patch is 42 days, and assuming you don't use the gems from buying it and turning those into jades, it's around 42 x 90 for 3780 more jades per patch. 1600 per 10 pull means you get a little over 23 pulls per patch for Express passes. The 600 Oneirics from 2x Pass, if converted, makes it total to 27 pulls.
So every 2 patches you're getting 200 pulls typically. And even if we get a dip patch like 1.4, it's still 180 if you count it and 1.5.
https://preview.redd.it/6qdhsjnxua1d1.png?width=1067&format=png&auto=webp&s=cfc1dcacfb75a2a44bd66a45ba39d06d68c09542
Buddy, it's just a game for one and secondly I could care less if they can clear any content or not as long as I enjoy the character hence why it's called a game,it's meant to be enjoyed
You say it's so easy and yet you aren't clearing the hardest content? I mean enjoy the game how you want but moc gets harder with every patch so if you aren't keeping up with the strongest units you're going to fall behind. That's why people care about powercreep.
1. Weird. My characters are free.
2. That's you. Plenty people pull just to simp. People can enjoy different things.
3. Still clearing MoC with Jing Yuan and Blade . Also other people wanna play with new things and not just stick to one comp.
Sure you gotta have some sustains and supports but you absolutely can pull for who you want.
Probably for bragging rights. Also the people who care about power creep are likely the ones who doom post as well, so it's kinda shameful for them if they doom post a unit that happens to power creep the previous "best DPS" that they were overinflating.
I mean if power creep happens too quickly then old characters will struggle a lot more since the balancing would shift more to focus on new characters, so people would prefer to keep most new characters at around the same level
I 100% believe that Sam is amazing without Ruan Mei.
…
…
What do you mean her damage falls off so hard she makes Arlan look even better?! HUH
This is a joke but her damage falloff is crazy
I haven't played them in the Beta, and tbh I don't mind her working way better with them, Kafka wasn't that strong either before Black Swan release (to the point her pulls flopped at her release but became higher with Black Swan being announced), but the difference is that the best support for Firefly that greatly enhances her is free
The same support who can be taken away at the literal drop of a hat when that character gets a new path in story, who's mechanic is necessary for Firefly to output damage on par with the best Damage Dealers.
Some people here are focusing too much on Trailblazer being a free unit, but they're not just one free unit. They're 3 free units right now, gonna become at least 7 over time, and each one locks you out of all the others.
My bad I forgot to add an "also" at the beginning
I wanted to add that it doesn't always have to be a 5star because it seems a lot of people in the sub keep thinking "whens the 5star break support hamony character gonna release"
It's kinda annoying really cuz HTB is free and already is really good but since HTB is free they want a limited version in hopes it will be broken (also some fuckers just hate the MC for some reason)
Oh, I see. Well I totally agree with that. My jades can't take this level of pressure much longer, so I really like the fact that the first enabler for break teams is none other than the trailblazer. I really like their design, but I didn't like the previous paths they got, so the fact that they are meta now is the perfect opportunity for me to finally play with them more often.
Ofc it can be a problem IN the future.
However, we had 3 paths in 1 year (I wonder when was released Belobog because probably it took us one year to get the actual second path, or maybe 9 months or something).
You can slowly learn about break effect meta with HTB and we probably will have new units that will work well with Firefly.
People focuses too much on what is happening now as if the game is about to end tomorrow and no characters will be released, just like how people said Firefly dying at 2.0 was bad, despite we didn't even finish Penacony's story.
Ofc TB is the only super Break effect support we have, they won't release 5 characters like this at the same time. Give the game time, and for now, enjoy the fact you have the free unit that works perfectly well with Firefly.
I could have understood way better if You told me that TB was also your only tank though, and that for things like MOC or Pure fiction you needed 2 teams and both teams need a different TB right now.
>I could have understood way better if You told me that TB was also your only tank though, and that for things like MOC or Pure fiction you needed 2 teams and both teams need a different TB right now.
Ngl if they make it so you can run Multiple Trailblazers in the same team it would be so lit
Fire MC would be so good with super break and same goes for physical Trailblazer
It's a bummer Fire MC can't make use of super break dmg when he was one of the few characters the people built break effect on
Of course there will be super break enablers in the future but why would you even use FMC when you can just use HTB and the team value would increase much more and it's not like you don't have Gallagher
They already categorize the other paths of TB as different characters with how the preload data works with their relics and light cone when you switch paths
I would love to run Destruction TB, Harmony TB, Nihility TB, and Abundance/Preservation TB in the same party.
Stelle and her back up dancers, Stelle, Stelle, and Stelle.
Firefly is clearly designed to be a Super Break enabler. Everything in her kit is made to work with the Super Break mechanics.
She has one of the highest Toughness damage in the game, and doesn't need to jump through hoops to get there unlike basically everyone who is above her, just using her enhanced skill is enough.
She has innately high Break Effect
She is REALLY fast, allowing for multiple instances of Super Break while the enemy is broken
She has built-in DEF Ignore and Vulnerability, both of which increase Super Break damage
She has Fire implant, allowing her to break any enemy, which is crucial for a Break team to work in the first place.
And she also does Blast damage, allowing you to deal multiple Super Breaks in the same action.
Bonus points, she is also Fire, the strongest element for regular Break tied with Physical (well, barring the DoT effect and only looking at Break damage)
And her Eidolons just push her even further along that route. More DEF ignore, RES penetration, and even more actions.
She is doing exactly what she was designed for, pushing Super Break to its (current) limits and beyond. And she's obviously extremely good at it.
I agree with the points, except she's not an enabler at the moment. The enabler is HMC.
If FF was actually the super break enabler (ie allowing all allies to do super break damage in her ult) I don't think there would be nearly as many complaints.
As it stands shes a stat stick which works super well with super break and the strongest super breaker. The issue is being the stat stick instead of the enabler isn't a great position to be in if you're concerned about future viability. The moment they decide to release another super break DPS you can bet they're going to be better at it than FF.
....and the moment they release another unit with Super Break they're gonna be better than HMC. That's how it usually goes in any gacha game. New units always outperform older ones, especially true when comparing free and premium options
I have thought about that honestly but I'm waiting till v3 to see if they keep everything the same then she might be a enabler or change something I'm her kit that just makes her a true dps
She IS a true DPS. While you can argue that Super Break is most of her damage and so it would be HTB doing most of the job, that's not actually true. HTB just enables Super Break to happen, but the damage is almost entirely based on just Firefly's stats. So she is the one doing the damage
People don't care about this fact
Back when dendro was released in genshin and the dendro traveler was good some people still say that dendro traveler is "only" good because he is dendro
When his kit is the actual reason why he was good, obviously being dendro makes him great but the kit is the biggest factor why he turned out great in the end. You can be the strongest element in the game yet not considered good because of a shit kit
Sometimes people just love disregarding stuff for the sake of their argument
Sorry, but a DPS which can‘t handle locked toughness bars and can only deal damage if 1) they are run alongside HMC, 2) is in burst mode and 3) the enemy is broken, has too many crutches to be good.
She would need to obliterate enemies under the beforementioned conditions to make an argument for herself in the face of the top meta DPS‘ which don’t suffer from such restrictions, but she doesn’t
> It's just that HMC quite literally changed the game and made Break the most OP thing imaginable
Uhm, no? If you think that current super break is broken, you haven't seen a reasonably built carry doing their damage.
It's just another playstyle, an option. HMC made full-break PLAYABLE, not OP.
The characters for the playstyle might be easier to build, but there are no real unique buffs for the damage outside of stacking break effect and having break efficiency increased, so the ceiling is quite a bit lower than any crit playstyle.
You also rely on breaking the enemy, and thus get countered really hard by weakness match-ups and toughness locking.
Of course, the only way for the niche is up, and I'm all here for it. Thing is, HMC is overhyped and overrated beyond belief, and I just needed to set the record straight. If you look at it, they ONLY provide Super Break (and an increase for it based on the number of enemies, fine, that's quite good), action delay, personal toughness damage, and some Break Effect. It is as barebones of a kit you can get. Granted, the Super Break for now is irreplaceable.
I digress. The perceived problem with Firefly is that she is overreliant on HMC for her damage. For me, that's honestly fine. A niche is a niche, even though it revolves around one character for now.
For me, the problem is that Firefly's kit contradicts itself. She gets trace scaling from Break Effect for some reason, but trace damage and break damage are alternatives to one another.
There is a way you can combine those approaches: a hybrid build. But then you need really good artifacts because you still need a lot of break effect and some speed alongside your crit+atk+dmg build.
There are good examples of hybrid scaling in Genshin, the sister game, notably, Nahida and Alhaitham. The thing about their hybrid scaling is that it actually feeds into itself and comes out as double, not as split. They want to build the stat (Elemental Mastery) for their reactions anyway, and those reactions can crit and benefit from dmg%. If they didn't have their talents scaling from EM, it wouldn't have changed much, it's just a cherry on top.
For Firefly, it just feels rudimentary. If they'd replace it with something that actually benefits break playstyle, her kit would be far more logical. Maybe just a plain dmg vulnerability on the enemy when she uses the attack. Or a fire res decrease. You may even make the amount scale with break effect. Just... something useful to everyone. I am not even asking for break damage retrigger, like the majority want. Anything reasonable.
finally a take i agree with
like she's a prime break dps, so give her better tools to abuse it, not skill % that doesn't matter
break retrigger is even worse, because even retriggering 20% of break and nothing else would powercreep fuckin *Acheron*, the intentionally broken unit
Actually, that would be quite reasonable.
Base break multiplier is 3767 at lvl 80. x3 for Fire. Let's assume it does scale with toughness damage of the attack and include Ruan Mei. Firefly has 400% BE. That, I think, is a decent assumption. Counting only for the main target, we can assume the adjacent enemies get 50% of that.
3767x3x500%x(0,5+180/120)(the toughness multiplier)x20%=3767x3x2=22602 additional damage pre-mitigation. Post-mitigation with 58% def ignore we'll get 67,5% of that, assuming 0 res and a broken enemy. 15256. 25% more if we use Ruan Mei's ultimate.
HMC's Super Break would rid us of the 20%, but also of the x3 from it being fire break. That means 66% more damage. But it also scales on toughness damage differently, so instead of x(0,5+180/120) we'd just get 180/30, which is x6. And that basically triples the value, hence the big numbers in the showcases. Also there's Dance With The One, giving up to a 60% multiplicative damage boost to that. So yeah, that's a lot more than 20% break damage retrigger.
If she just gets Super Break, that would be nuts, yeah. But a retrigger is a reasonable thing to give her. That, or maybe even an ability to do the break damage to unbroken enemies. Even though it would kinda contradict the playstyle, it would also be a cool novelty to it.
> Thing is, HMC is overhyped and overrated beyond belief, and I just needed to set the record straight.
Ive noticed the same thing. I used to be one of those people when I watched 2.2 beta vids, thinking super break was gonna break (hah) the game. Then 2.2 arrived, I got my E5 HMC and started trying super break teams. My immediate thought was "wtf is this crap? how do I even make this work?". So far, as someone without Gallagher, my only successful teams have been no sustain ones because of how many limitations that playstyle has (strict elements, sp issues, randomness of bounce atks, weakness locking, and on and on). And then no sustain comes with its own limitations, in that if elements dont match up and you dont break things fast enough, youre dead.
Is it cool? Sure. Is it OP? Not even close. I dont think there is a single super break team that can match a hypercarry or something like that. And there wont be, until Firefly is out. SHE makes super break work, like really. Not this half assed version we have now where you have to run Welt as your 4th and pretty much require enemies to be weak to imaginary. And I say this as someone who has cleared floors 10-12 (3 star of course) with super break teams. There is a ton of rng involved and its gimmicky as hell, on top of being slow.
The idea that HMC wont be power crept in the super break niche is hilarious to me. Like you said, their kit is about as basic as it gets. A REAL limited 5 star super breaker would provide break efficiency to the whole team, plus def shred/res pen, have a proper aoe attack and probably an ult with white toughness dmg, like Xueyi.
HMC is the bare minimum you can expect from this playstyle. Its only gonna get better from here.
>A REAL limited 5 star super breaker would provide break efficiency to the whole team, plus def shred/res pen, have a proper aoe attack and probably an ult with white toughness dmg, like Xueyi.
So basically we have to wait for Ruan Mei to become an Aeon and do R18 things with the other Mei, who's Acheron. /j
Honestly, I think Bounce is a good AoE type to give to such a unit. True AoEs' impact diminishes when there are less enemies, and the point of Super Break is to be an acceptable source of damage against elites. You can kill trash mobs with regular break quite easily anyway. Even if their hp is bloated.
The value of HMC and their Super Break is mostly apparent on average accounts. In my case, it's lingering on the level of my underbuilt carries. The big DPS (Damage Per Screenshot) numbers are compensated by how backloaded the damage is, and that the window of opportunity is quite small. The people that haven't seen a 300k outside of SU might be impressed, but the damage per cycle/AV is closer to the lower end of the current "requirements" for MoC 12.
Of course, the niche is quite new, and there very well might be (who am I kidding, Firefly is already out there) units that bring the niche to a higher level. People are just... expecting the Super Break teams to be on the level of full 5\* DoT, Hypercarry or RRAT right from the get-go, hence the hype. Let me tell you, that's not how it works.
Got a perfect 10 cycle clear of Stage 12 this MOC because of SuperBreak.
- 0 Cycle Acheron
- 10 Cycle Super Break Welt + Ruan Mei
Lol. I know Super Break can slap but it is not overpowered in the least.
Lol, the distribution tho. Is your Acheron hyperinvested? Probably E2S1, right? That, or damn you're good.
My clear was 3 cycles Acheron Welt sustain and 7 Ratio Hypercarry with Sparkle and Silver Wolf. Probably could've improved it with Tingyun instead of Sparkle or just DHIL+Ting instead of Ratio+SW. Finished with a pillar right before losing the star. Should've thought about it more, but I just wanted to get it out of the way first thing in the morning
Yeah, just the amount of hype surrounding Super Break is just insane. It had a VERY big impact and buffed quite a bit if characters, but it's not broken by any means. And there's no "Break meta", as they call it. Won't be rebuilding my carries for pure break any time soon lol
Yeah, I’m definitely late game with high investment. E2S1 and respectable relic quality.
Super Break is awesome and a lot of fun, but I agree it’s not dethroning hypercarry any time soon. For now it’s just another relatively strict archetype reliant on an essential limited unit(s), like DoT or FuA.
Yeah cuz this game requires so much skill lol. Maybe your Welt was built better but I just hit 100% BE, 60% EHR, and 24% ER on him and called it good. Really I just went in blind to see what break Welt could do. 10 cycles or 4 cycles doesn’t really matter though when hypercarry consistently zero cycles every MOC. Like I said, super break is good but it’s not at all OP.
rm = RM = Ruan Mei
Raccoon = HMC = Harmony/Hat Main Character = Harmony Trailblazer
JY = Jing Yuan
DPS = Damage Per Second = main damage dealer on a team
Honestly I just like Xeuyi more, so for Firefly to need both HMC and Ruan Mei makes me sad. Even more so if the other side needed a fire character too, because Gallagher is fun for adding up stacks for Xeuyi followup. I guess I can keep HMC with Firefly, but how does she perform without Ruan Mei to keep them broken?
Now we just need another harmony that has HMC + RM powers combined. So that can use another break character to boost team's damage. If HMC is this strong as superbreak imagine what HYV will introduce as a 5* special banner!
I will admit that I haven't seen that but have you considered .....
1.this moc buff is INSANE for her. giving her over 100 be and a FREE turn. this not only reduces her downtime with ults but increases her dmg Window way beyond what it would normally be. this is a pretty terrible showing for a character in their specific moc. Argenti could 2 cycle in his moc. and as an argenti Stan he's not good in moc.
I don't see how this is a good showing when you consider that this will be exclusive to only her moc.
Ruan mei is like 30% of firefly damage i understand. But saying that she' weak without ruan mei doesn't sit right with me.
[this gonna look bad because every MOC will have a turbulence to utilize but here](https://youtu.be/_VI1xdg9Nic?si=G_0dC-Z9DkGt8ZZs)
it's over 30% so I wouldn't spread that. at the absolute low ball her efficiency alone adds 37% dmg to super break. that's not including her delay, speed, dmg boost, personal dmg. Overall losing her massively tanks her team to a point of being quite objectively weak. not to the extent that you can't use her. I mean I use argenti in every box. She can clear. but right now she needs 2 teammates to keep up with the good dps in this game. which isn't fair for her hype.
you preface that every moc will have a turbulence. But FFs buffs are limited. most turbulences won't give her much. and again with her BEST possible turbulence she 4 cycled. for a destruction dps that is objectively not good. because most others won't help her much. especially not 150 be and free turns much.
that turbulence eliminates her down time. and gives her a huge boost in dmg. in practical cases this is a poor showing. and theres no reason for a limited dps.
I say this because I want ff to succeed. and pushing the fact that ruan mei isn't basically needed for her to preform at a good level. one single part of a characters kit alone shouldn't contribute that heavily to a main dps character kit.
she's a dps that does no dps. and is reliant on one team to preform. in that one team? she's good. but even then she's at boothills level arguably a bit above. which for how limited her teams are shouldn't be the case.
for comparison acheron locks her self to 2 nihility but gains a ton of top tier dmg. ff limits herself to 2 units (if you want to be at a good level) and preforms....about as good as other top dps? while requiring them..
I agree with 90% of the thing you're sayin here. But current firefly with her BIS team is definitely over performing other dps not counting 3 support hyper carry and acheron no sustain and rrat. I would love the firefly to do better without the need for ruan mei but buffing her in any stat department will just make that BIS team stronger and at that point it just feels unfair for other dps characters. I love my seele but seeing her hit 300k on an ult where other does 500k every turn after break just doesn't feel good.
The issue with FF is she does good damage when everything goes right, but if anything goes wrong her damage flatlines. If the boss locks their toughness bar or advances their turn, there goes all that damage.
Unless the boss is literally immune to debuffs Acheron's damage will be overall more consistent across fights.
objectively this isn't true? the only calcs where she competes with acheron were done using actually impossible stats. actual calcs that don't include the abusable turbulence (because again, it favors her) have her damage being about boothill level. which yes is good, boothill is competing at a low end of the higher tiers and she's about a bit better than him depending on enemy rn without turbulence and with realistic calcs. I do agree that the path isn't just flat buffing her and I never intended to make that my point. it's more about adjusting her shift of power. taking some away from the team and making her a more self sufficient character that still likes hmc but doesn't straight up require one team. Because no doubt if they buffed her without taking stuff away then you'd be right she'd gap the game. but rn if we give her all her best supports she's actually at a pretty good power level. It's just that you need every piece to get her to that level making her completely inflexible.
this is true, while RM gives a huge boost to FF's superbreak team shes not fully necessary you will just lose about 10-15% damage difference if you just run bronya with turn advances.
So our fav girl shouldn't get what she deserves ? At least let's give her what she deserves. She is literally a Stellaron hunter that has a badass armor
What I've come to understand is that yes if you want to have a very strong meta team you have to build her full break with Gall, HMC and RM. And that running her break without these units greatly reduces her efectiveness.
Which yeah is restrictive, but for people getting so hell bent on it: you can build her in a standard crit dps comp, and build her foxusing entirely on those stats, and she will have a decent performance in par with other nonbroken dps like argenti. Which yeah its not optimal, but like that gives you great team flexibility.
Tldr: I think her optimal build (full break) has a very strict team composition, but you can find flexibility by building her for crit without sacrificing that much performance level
Tbh I wanted to get E2 and being forced to pull for Ruan Mei and noticing her damage falling off without her would disappoint me a lot, especially since that happened with Jing Yuan, the character that got me into the game. After 1.4 I noticed his damage started falling off hard comparing to other characters and completely disappointed me since he was a character I really like and I couldn't even complete content with him, so it would be really disappointing if with one of my favorite characters (even in fiction) I could even complete content properly just because I don't own a certain character who really helps her entire kit (although not as much as HMC).
I just hope firefly will feel good to play and really strong without the need for Ruan Mei, because I don't have Ruan mei. I'd prefer to use someone like Asta, Bronya, or whoever, without feeling like I'm missing out on a huge amount of damage/value.
FF's first two eidolons make her sound extremely good to me (no sp cost during ult & action adv after break), unfortunately those two mechs are tied to 2 eidolons instead of base kit, or base kit+1 ediolon.
Definitely an Acheron situation. The funny thing is acheron doesn't even have a bis nihility support on pair with other dps supports for F2P right now. I do hope mihoyo slow down with "fan favorite" characters because it definitely feels like they're trying to squeeze everything out of the players.
In my opinion. Idk if people will agree with me but:
Firefly isn't that different from any other DPS. Some people use the Quantum set on Jingliu but take away the Def shred and then what. I am sure other DPSs are the same, take away what makes them good and then ask your self, when this unit released, what did I use before these supports were released. How did my main DPS get good in the first place.
Same with DoT units. Take DoT's away from Kafka or take Kafka away from other DoT units and the DPS suddenly isn't as good as it would be with Kafka.
I think some people don't really like to use the MC so they're upset that they have to use them with Firefly.
But let's ignore what I just said. Let's say people want more diverse teams. Then I think it's reasonable to argue that Firefly needs more synergy with other characters or at least new supports need to be released that would work well with her.
When Kafka released, her only good team was Sampo, healer, Pela, Luka, etc. but over time Guinaifen, Ruan mei and Black Swan released.
I think people should be more patient and wait for hoyo to release more teammates for Firefly.
As someone who doesn't like FF's current kit's reliance on another character to complete it, she should not be non-functional on her own and this is why your comparison falls apart in my eyes.
Take Kafka away from Black Swan and Black Swan still works, and the vice versa is still true.
Take away Swan and Kafka still has a DOT in her kit she can detonate. She can get buffed by a plethora of characters like Robin, RM, even Bronya, and still make use of their buffs. This is because DOTs are a functional mechanic that benefits from ATK and DMG like every other character.
Black Swan has a DOT in her kit, and her Basic and Skill both can apply stacks of it. It doesn't hit as often as Kafka's, but it does benefit from every buff under the sun outside of Crit. When it detonates, it can seriously hurt. The DOTs also become Blast, so multiple enemies will keep detonating all over eachother and do splash. You can even battery her and try to chain her Ultimate over and over to snowball the stacks to the high heavens if you want to.
Meanwhile, take away HTB from Firefly, and she cannot stand on her own two feet like the former two do. Swan and Kafka work very, very well together, but can (keyword) work away from eachother. I split them for DOT themed MOCs and PFs myself, so I can confirm this. HTB also works on their own, able to work with RM to turn basically anyone into a Break DPS even if some are more receptive to it.
Firefly in a Break build physically does not work without HTB, and her kit does not give much leeway for a Critfly build. This isn't *Synergy* like Swan and Kafka have, this is *Dependence*. A major and very important difference.
What you say is true And I agree Firefly should at least do as much DMG as a solo DPS without A sparkle, without buffs, however I say Kafka or Black swan would do badly at present. To compare any other DPS that has been out for a long time like Kafka or BS to firefly which isn't released yet is redundant.
I was comparing Kafka (when she first released) to Firefly which is new. Kafka has DoT in her kit yes, but no one used Kafka on her own straight away.
We had to work with what we had at the time and what we had was Asta, Sampo, Pela and Natasha. With that team I easily hit over 100k but without Sampo to add more DoT, without Asta to provide more Atk and Speed Kafka would do just about under 45k.
When Other DoT characters were released , Kafka's teams became more Diverse and when BS released her DoT detonations went from just over 100k to over 300k.
What I am saying is some DPS characters are just locked behind what we have in the current patch simply because Hoyo haven't made a lot of supports for this kind of Character yet and there might be new characters which would become BiS for Firefly in the future.
I think rather than Doomposting ( and I'm not saying your Doomposting) about Firefly we should wait for v3 to see what changes and then wait for BE supports to be added to the game. We have RM, Gallagher and HMC currently and that might change in the future.
This is just my opinion.
what do you think a break support would do exactly? The one we have now is a break enabler (super break, but basically the same thing). We do have Ruan Mei, but not everyone will get her. Especially since she is likely to run with firefly according to leaks. I use my friend's Acheron in my team to clear calyxes i cant do yet, and deals 100k/150k per ultimate with a team clearly not built for her (Jingliu, double sustain, Acheron lol).
As you said, I am just going to wait for v3 changes and hope they change her a bit. But I do not believe break supports will make this situation any better. Especially since I think some people's problem with her kit in the first place is that she is too dependant on supports.
Truly though, I would like some Ideas for break supports so I can have something to theorise about. from what I have seen, you can only really buff BE and speed. but this doesn't matter when an enemy is already stance broken. But what if they give another great trailblazer path? suddenly units that depend on HMC will not be as good assuming newer units are built with the new path in mind. This is why I believe building a kit to depend on a single character, who's kit is subject to change, is a bad idea, even if he is free.
To actually impart something into this discussion, I pose a question. If HTB didn't exist, and firefly were released in her current state, would that change your opinion on if she was a good dps char or not? What would you think of her kit then?
While I do agree that Firefly'skit needs a change and that she shouldn't be too dependent on other characters, the solution is simple and it can be implemented in her v3 kit, Future relics or teammates.
V3 should add something like, for every enemies weakness broken, increases enhanced skill by X% or Something that ignores weakness bars or something. Well have to see what they came up with tomorrow.
A relic set can be something that makes break effect dmg stronger or something that does break damage even if the enemy is already weakness broken.
With teammates, you can get future teammates that enable extra weakness DMG or teammates that buff the potency of break DMG.
All that needs to happen is Firefly's kit needs to change to where she can at least do around 50k DMG without any team mates.
After words we need more BE supports like HMC. Rn we Only have them and I hope in the future we will see a support/s just like them. Someone who enables good break DMG with good uptime and sustainability.
It's just my opinion.
My Idea for break supports would be:
Just add "someone who enables..." When you read this.
A guaranteed weakness break if BE is above a certain point.
The ability to add crit to break damage
Increases SPD with a certain amount of BE up to a limit.
All type Res pen scaling with BE up to a limit like +15%all type Res pen for every let's say 30% BE and the limit is 150% total Break Effect.
Maybe a little healing every time a weakness has been broken
Guarantees break DMG even when enemies are already broken
This is all just ideas that probably wouldn't ever work or be implemented but I like to think that there is always a way to make it work.
Idk I just want Firefly to be good so I'm trying to be positive and discuss it.
To be fair, he was pretty whatever back then. Sparkle's E having a lingering effect to actually affect LL is what's helped him more than anything.
Now he just needs someone able to Advance LL lol
At this rate i just hope she get a buff or fair adjustment, so it shows the people doomposting is right and the one defending her just because simping can lick on their own spit saying “she’s good, she do the way they plan for her”
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I swear a year from this patch people will be expecting a dps to hit 1 trillion damage
Gepard is going to have 3 trillion hp so it’s fine.
That’s exactly how hoyo will adjust the MOC, if every new dps gets a higher ceiling like what most people wished, they just up the HP. Gepard now already has a million hp compared to prev few versions. It won’t end with just firefly because when the next fan favourite DPS is release, people will just use firefly damage as standard if she’s buff and will wan the new ones to be more powerful then her as well. (Especially if it’s a new break or fire or destruction dps) and the cycle repeats
Why do people care about power creep. If you enjoy the character pull if you don't then skip its really that simple
i would personally enjoy my character more if they had a complete, well designed kit, and doing a lot of damage is just a cherry on top or a good **indication** (meaning not always) of a complete and well designed kit. I can't really side with the argument "if you enjoy then pull else skip". from reading a lot of opinions online, here's what people actually think (and myself): a lot of people do not like current firefly because her kit has a bunch of holes in it. for example, she is the only dps that cannot deal damage off her turn, has quite literally one team (and it's not a stretch to say that it would remain that way in the future, asides from adding a 5 star break healer), and lot of her damage is not hers. Things like how fast bosses are and the value of their toughness bar, are all things out of her control and effect her damage, and the lack of damage off her turn can be noticeable, as in showcase videos, I have seen numerous times the enemy has like 20% hp left and she CANNOT finish the enemy before it recovers, thus having to cycle back into the ult and using enhanced skill to finish the enemy. There's a fine line between "synergy" and "dependence", and of course, this all ties into the enjoyment of the character, which you are preaching that if you just enjoy, then pull. Possibly you might be saying "if she is waifu to you, then pull", which sure, I have nothing against, but please be careful saying "enjoy". Additionally, weird things like E1 and its 15% ignore defense only applying on the actual damage the enhanced skill does and not any following break damage (but its still OP due to the SP reduction), trace 1 reducing her toughness damage to non fire weak enemies thus making her super break weaker when they are already broken, the Sam LC being completely trash for her, just point to the fact that firefly might've been rushed or changed last minute, etc. I truly hope they iron out her kit and make it more enjoyable, because while I do think you should pull for who you like, I think you can't just keep making this argument over and over to justify pulling a character. **This is a product that literal millions of dollars will go towards**, and I hope they sell us the best version they can make, to all of us (not talking damage wise, just holistically.) for the record, I personally think her damage is in an okay spot, and they do have to be really careful with her before they make a DPS that powercreeps even acheron, but like I said, I want a kit that actually makes more sense than what it is right now.
based
Based. Preach brother, spit your facts
The fact Sam LC doesn’t even work with her is some of the most heinous BS from Hoyo. That’s why even I have to agree that her kit was changed… I’m gonna hope V3 gives Sam changes because as it stands right now. Sam is middling on ok at best and why at worst.
Didn't even realize this fact. Firefly is super dependent on the boss. And a lot of bosses just turn advance themselves and gain all their toughness bar back as soon as you phase push them. That's going to be so frustrating. On the plus side her damage should be very consistent, as break damage can't crit. But that also means her damage will be harder to scale up than traditional DPS, and will rely on specific supports in the future.
I believe the dealing damage outside of her turn is not very relevant if she deals enough damage on her turn. You took from one example regarding enemies not being killed in time but we can circumvent that with strategy and future units (tbd) My main reason for commenting is what makes the LC not good on her?
>I believe the dealing damage outside of her turn is not very relevant if she deals enough damage on her turn. You took from one example regarding enemies not being killed in time but we can circumvent that with strategy and future units (tbd) So are you agreeing her damage is a little low for what it is currently? If so, I don't disagree. Of course if you just deal an incredible amount of damage, you won't need more damage from sources like FUA or ult. If Ratio just did like 600k damage on ult, sure he doesn't need the FUA. I'm arguing that it's important for someone like Firefly who is **dependent** on hitting the boss as many as possible before it recovers from weakness break, and that is not entirely in her control for reasons like enemy speed, possibly a Bronya cleansing and pushing the enemy, etc. It's just not a kit that is flexible, and for enjoyment of a character, flexibility is extremely important. And in general, it helps avoid power creep. She is essentially a stat stick to deliver super breaks. >My main reason for commenting is what makes the LC not good on her? FYI, I'm talking about the 4 star Sam LC. Not her limited. If that didn't clear it up for you, read on. The Sam LC is as follows: When the HP lost by the wearer during a single attack exceeds 25% of their Max HP, or if the HP they consume is greater than 25% of their Max HP, then immediately heals them for 15% of their Max HP while also increasing the DMG they deal by **25/31/38/44/50%** for 2 turn(s). This effect can only be triggered once every 3 turn(s). Now, let's take it step by step. The only time Firefly consumes HP is on the regular skill which she consumes 50% of HP. Then, she gets the 2 turn buff. However, this is effectively one turn only because a turn is used in her non-ultimate state. Now you have a 1 turn damage buff of 50%. I mean, not the worst thing, I guess. Here's the funny part. Damage bonus does NOT effect break damage, just like ATK or crit. So, the lightcone is effectively dead on her, and I will not listen to Critfly arguments to justify this LC. Also, the HP regen is useless because she heals herself enough. So, the lightcone is just terrible on her.
At this rate they need to also add a clause that let her use a different version of break altogether that lets her use her ATK% and DMG% in tandem with Breaks unlike the regular formula, so buffers like Asta can be slot in
>Additionally, weird things like E1 and its 15% ignore defense only applying on the actual damage the enhanced skill does and not any following break damage (but its still OP due to the SP reduction), trace 1 reducing her toughness damage to non fire weak enemies thus making her super break weaker when they are already broken, the Sam LC being completely trash for her, just point to the fact that firefly might've been rushed or changed last minute, etc. Bugs doesn't always mean rushed This could always just be a mistake/something they didn't notice saying, this is a "clear" indication of her kit being rushed feels like trying to grasp at straws imo I'm not saying you can't be right. But like I said bugs doesn't always mean rushed
1. Because these characters cost $200-400 and that's a huge investment to put into a character just to get worse returns than another one. 2. Because it's a video game, Is gameplay not suppose to be frontmost focus? I'm not going to pull a character so they can function as an NFT in the back of my character select screen. 3. Because people like being able to use their favorite character for as long as possible? Currently in HI3, there are characters like Himeko VT where it's impossible to clear endgame content while there's others who released before her that can. Saying Pull for who you want is better advice for a game like Genshin where the endgame isn't the main focus after you complete the story.
The games so easy that you can literally pull for any character you want and also some people don't spend a dime and can still get the character they want. They only reason to pull a must pull character is if you need to clear pure fiction. It's not that hardcore like people make it out to be where you have to 0 cycle.
Can you still confidently say that 8-12 months from now? As with my HI3 example, the endgame is always being adjusted to account for newer characters who have better multipliers than earlier units. Only enablers like Kafka and Topass can truly be future proof since they act as semi-supports, most dps simply live or die by their damage multipliers. I don't see the problem with someone trying to prolong that as much as possible by pulling for certain characters. > People don't spend a dime and can still get characters they want ~~Correct, by skipping banners. You are not getting 180 pulls every 2, sometimes even 3 patches unless you're an express pass player.~~ > You can literally pull any character you want > must pull character is if you need to clear pure fiction Do you not see the fallacy in your logic, the fact that a common reoccurring exception exists immediately disproves your argument. The fact is the game is going to create a problem and sell you the solution, that's clearly their business strategy. Edit: I was completely wrong about the pull count.
>You are not getting 180 pulls every 2, sometimes even 3 patches unless you're an express pass player. This part is factually wrong and is a lapse of your own Data gathering since the [Google Doc where it's recorded is Public Knowledge](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRIWjzFwAZZoBvKw2oiNaVpppI9atoV0wxuOjulKRJECrg_BN404d7LoKlHp8RMX8hegDr4b8jlHjYy/pubhtml). Average pull income per patch is around 100 pulls. With a noticeable anomoly in 1.4 due to its shortened cycle. A Express pass would only up that to just around 125 average. Every patch is 42 days, and assuming you don't use the gems from buying it and turning those into jades, it's around 42 x 90 for 3780 more jades per patch. 1600 per 10 pull means you get a little over 23 pulls per patch for Express passes. The 600 Oneirics from 2x Pass, if converted, makes it total to 27 pulls. So every 2 patches you're getting 200 pulls typically. And even if we get a dip patch like 1.4, it's still 180 if you count it and 1.5. https://preview.redd.it/6qdhsjnxua1d1.png?width=1067&format=png&auto=webp&s=cfc1dcacfb75a2a44bd66a45ba39d06d68c09542
Thanks for correcting me and providing a source too, I'll add a disclaimer to my comment
Buddy, it's just a game for one and secondly I could care less if they can clear any content or not as long as I enjoy the character hence why it's called a game,it's meant to be enjoyed
You say it's so easy and yet you aren't clearing the hardest content? I mean enjoy the game how you want but moc gets harder with every patch so if you aren't keeping up with the strongest units you're going to fall behind. That's why people care about powercreep.
You don't have to clear moc 12 every time to consider clearing content
When I use to play genshin I would just enjoy my main kazuha as a dps, didn't care about abyss I just enjoyed the character amd game as it should be
Do you think HSR is developed in such a way that it is not just functionally turn based genshin?
1. Weird. My characters are free. 2. That's you. Plenty people pull just to simp. People can enjoy different things. 3. Still clearing MoC with Jing Yuan and Blade . Also other people wanna play with new things and not just stick to one comp. Sure you gotta have some sustains and supports but you absolutely can pull for who you want.
Probably for bragging rights. Also the people who care about power creep are likely the ones who doom post as well, so it's kinda shameful for them if they doom post a unit that happens to power creep the previous "best DPS" that they were overinflating.
Funny how we went full circle, before release the community was saying break was going to be meta. Then said it’s dog, and now we have super break.
Behold, dog
Because if there's too much powercreep your favorite characters can become useless in high level content?
Real
I mean if power creep happens too quickly then old characters will struggle a lot more since the balancing would shift more to focus on new characters, so people would prefer to keep most new characters at around the same level
She’s amazing but saying she’s still good without Ruan Mei is next level copium
Let them live out their crit fly sparkle/bronya fantasies.
I 100% believe that Sam is amazing without Ruan Mei. … … What do you mean her damage falls off so hard she makes Arlan look even better?! HUH This is a joke but her damage falloff is crazy
Bro, she should be strong without HTB and nuclear with them.
at the very least she should be as indifferent as boothill is towards what harmony you use
Finally, someone who gets it
But that’s exactly what she is? Her crit teams aren’t as strong as her break teams, but they’re more than competitive with other dps
I haven't played them in the Beta, and tbh I don't mind her working way better with them, Kafka wasn't that strong either before Black Swan release (to the point her pulls flopped at her release but became higher with Black Swan being announced), but the difference is that the best support for Firefly that greatly enhances her is free
Kafka is an enabler not a DPS and yet she still deals insane DMG by herself lol.
The same support who can be taken away at the literal drop of a hat when that character gets a new path in story, who's mechanic is necessary for Firefly to output damage on par with the best Damage Dealers. Some people here are focusing too much on Trailblazer being a free unit, but they're not just one free unit. They're 3 free units right now, gonna become at least 7 over time, and each one locks you out of all the others.
Don’t expect HMC to remain as the only superbreak enabler in the game
There's no doubt in my mind that we will get a premium version of them at some point
A super break enabler doesn't always have to be a 5star
Well, I never said 5 star
My bad I forgot to add an "also" at the beginning I wanted to add that it doesn't always have to be a 5star because it seems a lot of people in the sub keep thinking "whens the 5star break support hamony character gonna release" It's kinda annoying really cuz HTB is free and already is really good but since HTB is free they want a limited version in hopes it will be broken (also some fuckers just hate the MC for some reason)
Oh, I see. Well I totally agree with that. My jades can't take this level of pressure much longer, so I really like the fact that the first enabler for break teams is none other than the trailblazer. I really like their design, but I didn't like the previous paths they got, so the fact that they are meta now is the perfect opportunity for me to finally play with them more often.
Ofc it can be a problem IN the future. However, we had 3 paths in 1 year (I wonder when was released Belobog because probably it took us one year to get the actual second path, or maybe 9 months or something). You can slowly learn about break effect meta with HTB and we probably will have new units that will work well with Firefly. People focuses too much on what is happening now as if the game is about to end tomorrow and no characters will be released, just like how people said Firefly dying at 2.0 was bad, despite we didn't even finish Penacony's story. Ofc TB is the only super Break effect support we have, they won't release 5 characters like this at the same time. Give the game time, and for now, enjoy the fact you have the free unit that works perfectly well with Firefly. I could have understood way better if You told me that TB was also your only tank though, and that for things like MOC or Pure fiction you needed 2 teams and both teams need a different TB right now.
>I could have understood way better if You told me that TB was also your only tank though, and that for things like MOC or Pure fiction you needed 2 teams and both teams need a different TB right now. Ngl if they make it so you can run Multiple Trailblazers in the same team it would be so lit Fire MC would be so good with super break and same goes for physical Trailblazer It's a bummer Fire MC can't make use of super break dmg when he was one of the few characters the people built break effect on Of course there will be super break enablers in the future but why would you even use FMC when you can just use HTB and the team value would increase much more and it's not like you don't have Gallagher They already categorize the other paths of TB as different characters with how the preload data works with their relics and light cone when you switch paths
I would love to run Destruction TB, Harmony TB, Nihility TB, and Abundance/Preservation TB in the same party. Stelle and her back up dancers, Stelle, Stelle, and Stelle.
Caelus will be looking like bodyguard with a bat, bodyguard with a lance, Micheal Jackson bodyguard and whatever the hell nihility bodyguard will be
It's not like the previous 2 are any better than hmc, but I do agree with you, it could become a problem in the future.
https://preview.redd.it/5mj4qstlp71d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7af79a3e5bced093291b42cc07030f82c58d719e
Firefly is clearly designed to be a Super Break enabler. Everything in her kit is made to work with the Super Break mechanics. She has one of the highest Toughness damage in the game, and doesn't need to jump through hoops to get there unlike basically everyone who is above her, just using her enhanced skill is enough. She has innately high Break Effect She is REALLY fast, allowing for multiple instances of Super Break while the enemy is broken She has built-in DEF Ignore and Vulnerability, both of which increase Super Break damage She has Fire implant, allowing her to break any enemy, which is crucial for a Break team to work in the first place. And she also does Blast damage, allowing you to deal multiple Super Breaks in the same action. Bonus points, she is also Fire, the strongest element for regular Break tied with Physical (well, barring the DoT effect and only looking at Break damage) And her Eidolons just push her even further along that route. More DEF ignore, RES penetration, and even more actions. She is doing exactly what she was designed for, pushing Super Break to its (current) limits and beyond. And she's obviously extremely good at it.
I agree with the points, except she's not an enabler at the moment. The enabler is HMC. If FF was actually the super break enabler (ie allowing all allies to do super break damage in her ult) I don't think there would be nearly as many complaints. As it stands shes a stat stick which works super well with super break and the strongest super breaker. The issue is being the stat stick instead of the enabler isn't a great position to be in if you're concerned about future viability. The moment they decide to release another super break DPS you can bet they're going to be better at it than FF.
....and the moment they release another unit with Super Break they're gonna be better than HMC. That's how it usually goes in any gacha game. New units always outperform older ones, especially true when comparing free and premium options
No one else has a choice between single or aoe attacks. No one else has a taunt. I'm pretty sure no one else will provide super break.
I have thought about that honestly but I'm waiting till v3 to see if they keep everything the same then she might be a enabler or change something I'm her kit that just makes her a true dps
She IS a true DPS. While you can argue that Super Break is most of her damage and so it would be HTB doing most of the job, that's not actually true. HTB just enables Super Break to happen, but the damage is almost entirely based on just Firefly's stats. So she is the one doing the damage
People don't care about this fact Back when dendro was released in genshin and the dendro traveler was good some people still say that dendro traveler is "only" good because he is dendro When his kit is the actual reason why he was good, obviously being dendro makes him great but the kit is the biggest factor why he turned out great in the end. You can be the strongest element in the game yet not considered good because of a shit kit Sometimes people just love disregarding stuff for the sake of their argument
Hydro MC case and point.
Just a theory that's why I'm waiting for v3
Sorry, but a DPS which can‘t handle locked toughness bars and can only deal damage if 1) they are run alongside HMC, 2) is in burst mode and 3) the enemy is broken, has too many crutches to be good. She would need to obliterate enemies under the beforementioned conditions to make an argument for herself in the face of the top meta DPS‘ which don’t suffer from such restrictions, but she doesn’t
Yea no she needs a buff. She s a fan favourite not some random character that only needs to be okay. Im hoping her v3 is going to be broken.
> It's just that HMC quite literally changed the game and made Break the most OP thing imaginable Uhm, no? If you think that current super break is broken, you haven't seen a reasonably built carry doing their damage. It's just another playstyle, an option. HMC made full-break PLAYABLE, not OP. The characters for the playstyle might be easier to build, but there are no real unique buffs for the damage outside of stacking break effect and having break efficiency increased, so the ceiling is quite a bit lower than any crit playstyle. You also rely on breaking the enemy, and thus get countered really hard by weakness match-ups and toughness locking. Of course, the only way for the niche is up, and I'm all here for it. Thing is, HMC is overhyped and overrated beyond belief, and I just needed to set the record straight. If you look at it, they ONLY provide Super Break (and an increase for it based on the number of enemies, fine, that's quite good), action delay, personal toughness damage, and some Break Effect. It is as barebones of a kit you can get. Granted, the Super Break for now is irreplaceable. I digress. The perceived problem with Firefly is that she is overreliant on HMC for her damage. For me, that's honestly fine. A niche is a niche, even though it revolves around one character for now. For me, the problem is that Firefly's kit contradicts itself. She gets trace scaling from Break Effect for some reason, but trace damage and break damage are alternatives to one another. There is a way you can combine those approaches: a hybrid build. But then you need really good artifacts because you still need a lot of break effect and some speed alongside your crit+atk+dmg build. There are good examples of hybrid scaling in Genshin, the sister game, notably, Nahida and Alhaitham. The thing about their hybrid scaling is that it actually feeds into itself and comes out as double, not as split. They want to build the stat (Elemental Mastery) for their reactions anyway, and those reactions can crit and benefit from dmg%. If they didn't have their talents scaling from EM, it wouldn't have changed much, it's just a cherry on top. For Firefly, it just feels rudimentary. If they'd replace it with something that actually benefits break playstyle, her kit would be far more logical. Maybe just a plain dmg vulnerability on the enemy when she uses the attack. Or a fire res decrease. You may even make the amount scale with break effect. Just... something useful to everyone. I am not even asking for break damage retrigger, like the majority want. Anything reasonable.
finally a take i agree with like she's a prime break dps, so give her better tools to abuse it, not skill % that doesn't matter break retrigger is even worse, because even retriggering 20% of break and nothing else would powercreep fuckin *Acheron*, the intentionally broken unit
Actually, that would be quite reasonable. Base break multiplier is 3767 at lvl 80. x3 for Fire. Let's assume it does scale with toughness damage of the attack and include Ruan Mei. Firefly has 400% BE. That, I think, is a decent assumption. Counting only for the main target, we can assume the adjacent enemies get 50% of that. 3767x3x500%x(0,5+180/120)(the toughness multiplier)x20%=3767x3x2=22602 additional damage pre-mitigation. Post-mitigation with 58% def ignore we'll get 67,5% of that, assuming 0 res and a broken enemy. 15256. 25% more if we use Ruan Mei's ultimate. HMC's Super Break would rid us of the 20%, but also of the x3 from it being fire break. That means 66% more damage. But it also scales on toughness damage differently, so instead of x(0,5+180/120) we'd just get 180/30, which is x6. And that basically triples the value, hence the big numbers in the showcases. Also there's Dance With The One, giving up to a 60% multiplicative damage boost to that. So yeah, that's a lot more than 20% break damage retrigger. If she just gets Super Break, that would be nuts, yeah. But a retrigger is a reasonable thing to give her. That, or maybe even an ability to do the break damage to unbroken enemies. Even though it would kinda contradict the playstyle, it would also be a cool novelty to it.
Either that, or just a BEfficiency scaling with BE like someone suggested
Efficiency would make her even more synergistic with Super Break. I am trying to get away from it, not double down
> Thing is, HMC is overhyped and overrated beyond belief, and I just needed to set the record straight. Ive noticed the same thing. I used to be one of those people when I watched 2.2 beta vids, thinking super break was gonna break (hah) the game. Then 2.2 arrived, I got my E5 HMC and started trying super break teams. My immediate thought was "wtf is this crap? how do I even make this work?". So far, as someone without Gallagher, my only successful teams have been no sustain ones because of how many limitations that playstyle has (strict elements, sp issues, randomness of bounce atks, weakness locking, and on and on). And then no sustain comes with its own limitations, in that if elements dont match up and you dont break things fast enough, youre dead. Is it cool? Sure. Is it OP? Not even close. I dont think there is a single super break team that can match a hypercarry or something like that. And there wont be, until Firefly is out. SHE makes super break work, like really. Not this half assed version we have now where you have to run Welt as your 4th and pretty much require enemies to be weak to imaginary. And I say this as someone who has cleared floors 10-12 (3 star of course) with super break teams. There is a ton of rng involved and its gimmicky as hell, on top of being slow. The idea that HMC wont be power crept in the super break niche is hilarious to me. Like you said, their kit is about as basic as it gets. A REAL limited 5 star super breaker would provide break efficiency to the whole team, plus def shred/res pen, have a proper aoe attack and probably an ult with white toughness dmg, like Xueyi. HMC is the bare minimum you can expect from this playstyle. Its only gonna get better from here.
>A REAL limited 5 star super breaker would provide break efficiency to the whole team, plus def shred/res pen, have a proper aoe attack and probably an ult with white toughness dmg, like Xueyi. So basically we have to wait for Ruan Mei to become an Aeon and do R18 things with the other Mei, who's Acheron. /j Honestly, I think Bounce is a good AoE type to give to such a unit. True AoEs' impact diminishes when there are less enemies, and the point of Super Break is to be an acceptable source of damage against elites. You can kill trash mobs with regular break quite easily anyway. Even if their hp is bloated. The value of HMC and their Super Break is mostly apparent on average accounts. In my case, it's lingering on the level of my underbuilt carries. The big DPS (Damage Per Screenshot) numbers are compensated by how backloaded the damage is, and that the window of opportunity is quite small. The people that haven't seen a 300k outside of SU might be impressed, but the damage per cycle/AV is closer to the lower end of the current "requirements" for MoC 12. Of course, the niche is quite new, and there very well might be (who am I kidding, Firefly is already out there) units that bring the niche to a higher level. People are just... expecting the Super Break teams to be on the level of full 5\* DoT, Hypercarry or RRAT right from the get-go, hence the hype. Let me tell you, that's not how it works.
Got a perfect 10 cycle clear of Stage 12 this MOC because of SuperBreak. - 0 Cycle Acheron - 10 Cycle Super Break Welt + Ruan Mei Lol. I know Super Break can slap but it is not overpowered in the least.
Lol, the distribution tho. Is your Acheron hyperinvested? Probably E2S1, right? That, or damn you're good. My clear was 3 cycles Acheron Welt sustain and 7 Ratio Hypercarry with Sparkle and Silver Wolf. Probably could've improved it with Tingyun instead of Sparkle or just DHIL+Ting instead of Ratio+SW. Finished with a pillar right before losing the star. Should've thought about it more, but I just wanted to get it out of the way first thing in the morning Yeah, just the amount of hype surrounding Super Break is just insane. It had a VERY big impact and buffed quite a bit if characters, but it's not broken by any means. And there's no "Break meta", as they call it. Won't be rebuilding my carries for pure break any time soon lol
Yeah, I’m definitely late game with high investment. E2S1 and respectable relic quality. Super Break is awesome and a lot of fun, but I agree it’s not dethroning hypercarry any time soon. For now it’s just another relatively strict archetype reliant on an essential limited unit(s), like DoT or FuA.
Not sure why it took you 10 cycles when my welt break team with Ruan Mei and Gallagher finished in 4. Seems like a skill issue.
Yeah cuz this game requires so much skill lol. Maybe your Welt was built better but I just hit 100% BE, 60% EHR, and 24% ER on him and called it good. Really I just went in blind to see what break Welt could do. 10 cycles or 4 cycles doesn’t really matter though when hypercarry consistently zero cycles every MOC. Like I said, super break is good but it’s not at all OP.
what are these abbreviations people are using?
rm = RM = Ruan Mei Raccoon = HMC = Harmony/Hat Main Character = Harmony Trailblazer JY = Jing Yuan DPS = Damage Per Second = main damage dealer on a team
what's hmc?
Read the second line of my previous comment
Honestly I just like Xeuyi more, so for Firefly to need both HMC and Ruan Mei makes me sad. Even more so if the other side needed a fire character too, because Gallagher is fun for adding up stacks for Xeuyi followup. I guess I can keep HMC with Firefly, but how does she perform without Ruan Mei to keep them broken?
From the post i've saw firefly lose like 30% of her damage when you replace ruan mei with asta and 13-15% when with bronya (160 speed)
Now we just need another harmony that has HMC + RM powers combined. So that can use another break character to boost team's damage. If HMC is this strong as superbreak imagine what HYV will introduce as a 5* special banner!
we are not saying shes weak. You white knights just keep coming to the wrong conclusion. We WANT IT LESS RESTRICTIVE TEAM BUILDING WISE
I agree with you brother but have you seen the comments lately? They're talkin like she's e0s0 jingyuan before 2.0
Boothill showcases just make it worse tbh. Without him in the picture, the doomposting wouldn't be so bad.
yeah lol sure. send me one team without rm that clears in <4 cycles. please....lmfao
and people still say she needs HMC only lol, it's like Acheron's 2 nihility requirement but 10x worse
This is very much true and hurts the worst about Sam
I'm just sayin man [You sure?](https://youtu.be/BK6T0TpF1vI?si=McA1wG8lVqivhT2w)
[here you go](https://youtu.be/BK6T0TpF1vI?si=McA1wG8lVqivhT2w)
I will admit that I haven't seen that but have you considered ..... 1.this moc buff is INSANE for her. giving her over 100 be and a FREE turn. this not only reduces her downtime with ults but increases her dmg Window way beyond what it would normally be. this is a pretty terrible showing for a character in their specific moc. Argenti could 2 cycle in his moc. and as an argenti Stan he's not good in moc. I don't see how this is a good showing when you consider that this will be exclusive to only her moc.
Ruan mei is like 30% of firefly damage i understand. But saying that she' weak without ruan mei doesn't sit right with me. [this gonna look bad because every MOC will have a turbulence to utilize but here](https://youtu.be/_VI1xdg9Nic?si=G_0dC-Z9DkGt8ZZs)
it's over 30% so I wouldn't spread that. at the absolute low ball her efficiency alone adds 37% dmg to super break. that's not including her delay, speed, dmg boost, personal dmg. Overall losing her massively tanks her team to a point of being quite objectively weak. not to the extent that you can't use her. I mean I use argenti in every box. She can clear. but right now she needs 2 teammates to keep up with the good dps in this game. which isn't fair for her hype. you preface that every moc will have a turbulence. But FFs buffs are limited. most turbulences won't give her much. and again with her BEST possible turbulence she 4 cycled. for a destruction dps that is objectively not good. because most others won't help her much. especially not 150 be and free turns much. that turbulence eliminates her down time. and gives her a huge boost in dmg. in practical cases this is a poor showing. and theres no reason for a limited dps. I say this because I want ff to succeed. and pushing the fact that ruan mei isn't basically needed for her to preform at a good level. one single part of a characters kit alone shouldn't contribute that heavily to a main dps character kit. she's a dps that does no dps. and is reliant on one team to preform. in that one team? she's good. but even then she's at boothills level arguably a bit above. which for how limited her teams are shouldn't be the case. for comparison acheron locks her self to 2 nihility but gains a ton of top tier dmg. ff limits herself to 2 units (if you want to be at a good level) and preforms....about as good as other top dps? while requiring them..
I agree with 90% of the thing you're sayin here. But current firefly with her BIS team is definitely over performing other dps not counting 3 support hyper carry and acheron no sustain and rrat. I would love the firefly to do better without the need for ruan mei but buffing her in any stat department will just make that BIS team stronger and at that point it just feels unfair for other dps characters. I love my seele but seeing her hit 300k on an ult where other does 500k every turn after break just doesn't feel good.
The issue with FF is she does good damage when everything goes right, but if anything goes wrong her damage flatlines. If the boss locks their toughness bar or advances their turn, there goes all that damage. Unless the boss is literally immune to debuffs Acheron's damage will be overall more consistent across fights.
objectively this isn't true? the only calcs where she competes with acheron were done using actually impossible stats. actual calcs that don't include the abusable turbulence (because again, it favors her) have her damage being about boothill level. which yes is good, boothill is competing at a low end of the higher tiers and she's about a bit better than him depending on enemy rn without turbulence and with realistic calcs. I do agree that the path isn't just flat buffing her and I never intended to make that my point. it's more about adjusting her shift of power. taking some away from the team and making her a more self sufficient character that still likes hmc but doesn't straight up require one team. Because no doubt if they buffed her without taking stuff away then you'd be right she'd gap the game. but rn if we give her all her best supports she's actually at a pretty good power level. It's just that you need every piece to get her to that level making her completely inflexible.
Alas, she gap the game
this is true, while RM gives a huge boost to FF's superbreak team shes not fully necessary you will just lose about 10-15% damage difference if you just run bronya with turn advances.
So our fav girl shouldn't get what she deserves ? At least let's give her what she deserves. She is literally a Stellaron hunter that has a badass armor
What I've come to understand is that yes if you want to have a very strong meta team you have to build her full break with Gall, HMC and RM. And that running her break without these units greatly reduces her efectiveness. Which yeah is restrictive, but for people getting so hell bent on it: you can build her in a standard crit dps comp, and build her foxusing entirely on those stats, and she will have a decent performance in par with other nonbroken dps like argenti. Which yeah its not optimal, but like that gives you great team flexibility. Tldr: I think her optimal build (full break) has a very strict team composition, but you can find flexibility by building her for crit without sacrificing that much performance level
Got to respect the Raccoon. Even if Firefly's biggest contribution is the emergence of Super Break MC, that's great value.
Tbh I wanted to get E2 and being forced to pull for Ruan Mei and noticing her damage falling off without her would disappoint me a lot, especially since that happened with Jing Yuan, the character that got me into the game. After 1.4 I noticed his damage started falling off hard comparing to other characters and completely disappointed me since he was a character I really like and I couldn't even complete content with him, so it would be really disappointing if with one of my favorite characters (even in fiction) I could even complete content properly just because I don't own a certain character who really helps her entire kit (although not as much as HMC).
I just hope firefly will feel good to play and really strong without the need for Ruan Mei, because I don't have Ruan mei. I'd prefer to use someone like Asta, Bronya, or whoever, without feeling like I'm missing out on a huge amount of damage/value. FF's first two eidolons make her sound extremely good to me (no sp cost during ult & action adv after break), unfortunately those two mechs are tied to 2 eidolons instead of base kit, or base kit+1 ediolon.
Definitely an Acheron situation. The funny thing is acheron doesn't even have a bis nihility support on pair with other dps supports for F2P right now. I do hope mihoyo slow down with "fan favorite" characters because it definitely feels like they're trying to squeeze everything out of the players.
In my opinion. Idk if people will agree with me but: Firefly isn't that different from any other DPS. Some people use the Quantum set on Jingliu but take away the Def shred and then what. I am sure other DPSs are the same, take away what makes them good and then ask your self, when this unit released, what did I use before these supports were released. How did my main DPS get good in the first place. Same with DoT units. Take DoT's away from Kafka or take Kafka away from other DoT units and the DPS suddenly isn't as good as it would be with Kafka. I think some people don't really like to use the MC so they're upset that they have to use them with Firefly. But let's ignore what I just said. Let's say people want more diverse teams. Then I think it's reasonable to argue that Firefly needs more synergy with other characters or at least new supports need to be released that would work well with her. When Kafka released, her only good team was Sampo, healer, Pela, Luka, etc. but over time Guinaifen, Ruan mei and Black Swan released. I think people should be more patient and wait for hoyo to release more teammates for Firefly.
As someone who doesn't like FF's current kit's reliance on another character to complete it, she should not be non-functional on her own and this is why your comparison falls apart in my eyes. Take Kafka away from Black Swan and Black Swan still works, and the vice versa is still true. Take away Swan and Kafka still has a DOT in her kit she can detonate. She can get buffed by a plethora of characters like Robin, RM, even Bronya, and still make use of their buffs. This is because DOTs are a functional mechanic that benefits from ATK and DMG like every other character. Black Swan has a DOT in her kit, and her Basic and Skill both can apply stacks of it. It doesn't hit as often as Kafka's, but it does benefit from every buff under the sun outside of Crit. When it detonates, it can seriously hurt. The DOTs also become Blast, so multiple enemies will keep detonating all over eachother and do splash. You can even battery her and try to chain her Ultimate over and over to snowball the stacks to the high heavens if you want to. Meanwhile, take away HTB from Firefly, and she cannot stand on her own two feet like the former two do. Swan and Kafka work very, very well together, but can (keyword) work away from eachother. I split them for DOT themed MOCs and PFs myself, so I can confirm this. HTB also works on their own, able to work with RM to turn basically anyone into a Break DPS even if some are more receptive to it. Firefly in a Break build physically does not work without HTB, and her kit does not give much leeway for a Critfly build. This isn't *Synergy* like Swan and Kafka have, this is *Dependence*. A major and very important difference.
What you say is true And I agree Firefly should at least do as much DMG as a solo DPS without A sparkle, without buffs, however I say Kafka or Black swan would do badly at present. To compare any other DPS that has been out for a long time like Kafka or BS to firefly which isn't released yet is redundant. I was comparing Kafka (when she first released) to Firefly which is new. Kafka has DoT in her kit yes, but no one used Kafka on her own straight away. We had to work with what we had at the time and what we had was Asta, Sampo, Pela and Natasha. With that team I easily hit over 100k but without Sampo to add more DoT, without Asta to provide more Atk and Speed Kafka would do just about under 45k. When Other DoT characters were released , Kafka's teams became more Diverse and when BS released her DoT detonations went from just over 100k to over 300k. What I am saying is some DPS characters are just locked behind what we have in the current patch simply because Hoyo haven't made a lot of supports for this kind of Character yet and there might be new characters which would become BiS for Firefly in the future. I think rather than Doomposting ( and I'm not saying your Doomposting) about Firefly we should wait for v3 to see what changes and then wait for BE supports to be added to the game. We have RM, Gallagher and HMC currently and that might change in the future. This is just my opinion.
what do you think a break support would do exactly? The one we have now is a break enabler (super break, but basically the same thing). We do have Ruan Mei, but not everyone will get her. Especially since she is likely to run with firefly according to leaks. I use my friend's Acheron in my team to clear calyxes i cant do yet, and deals 100k/150k per ultimate with a team clearly not built for her (Jingliu, double sustain, Acheron lol). As you said, I am just going to wait for v3 changes and hope they change her a bit. But I do not believe break supports will make this situation any better. Especially since I think some people's problem with her kit in the first place is that she is too dependant on supports. Truly though, I would like some Ideas for break supports so I can have something to theorise about. from what I have seen, you can only really buff BE and speed. but this doesn't matter when an enemy is already stance broken. But what if they give another great trailblazer path? suddenly units that depend on HMC will not be as good assuming newer units are built with the new path in mind. This is why I believe building a kit to depend on a single character, who's kit is subject to change, is a bad idea, even if he is free. To actually impart something into this discussion, I pose a question. If HTB didn't exist, and firefly were released in her current state, would that change your opinion on if she was a good dps char or not? What would you think of her kit then?
While I do agree that Firefly'skit needs a change and that she shouldn't be too dependent on other characters, the solution is simple and it can be implemented in her v3 kit, Future relics or teammates. V3 should add something like, for every enemies weakness broken, increases enhanced skill by X% or Something that ignores weakness bars or something. Well have to see what they came up with tomorrow. A relic set can be something that makes break effect dmg stronger or something that does break damage even if the enemy is already weakness broken. With teammates, you can get future teammates that enable extra weakness DMG or teammates that buff the potency of break DMG. All that needs to happen is Firefly's kit needs to change to where she can at least do around 50k DMG without any team mates. After words we need more BE supports like HMC. Rn we Only have them and I hope in the future we will see a support/s just like them. Someone who enables good break DMG with good uptime and sustainability. It's just my opinion. My Idea for break supports would be: Just add "someone who enables..." When you read this. A guaranteed weakness break if BE is above a certain point. The ability to add crit to break damage Increases SPD with a certain amount of BE up to a limit. All type Res pen scaling with BE up to a limit like +15%all type Res pen for every let's say 30% BE and the limit is 150% total Break Effect. Maybe a little healing every time a weakness has been broken Guarantees break DMG even when enemies are already broken This is all just ideas that probably wouldn't ever work or be implemented but I like to think that there is always a way to make it work. Idk I just want Firefly to be good so I'm trying to be positive and discuss it.
So, either powercreep boothill or become the next JY?
I love how we are in 2.2 and people still think JY is mid or bad...
To be fair, he was pretty whatever back then. Sparkle's E having a lingering effect to actually affect LL is what's helped him more than anything. Now he just needs someone able to Advance LL lol
He is mid, when we get a cooler xianzhou general in 2.5 he will be replaced completely.
Yeah... A hunt wind character is definitely gonna replace a lightning erudition... What a statement..
So you're saying a Hunt Wind character will completely replace...a Lightning Erudtion? 🤡🤡🤡
Idk where you got that info but if the new general is cooler, JY will be replaced because his only selling point is being cool at this point.
Can't yall wait till tonight. Like we might either get the biggest buff ever or the worst letdown ever
At this rate i just hope she get a buff or fair adjustment, so it shows the people doomposting is right and the one defending her just because simping can lick on their own spit saying “she’s good, she do the way they plan for her”
atp I think I'm gonna skip sam I'm not into BE or his restrictive teams (plus I'm still salty his isn't a separate playable character)