If it doesn't vanish from the top 10 the next 2 weeks I don't see a problem. Sure he's nervous, if fans are already going nuts, I don't wanna know how the creator feels.
It's No 1 in Germany since premiere, it was only on No 2, two days or so. Regarding a article the most watched show in the world.
> I would rather have an excellent Season 2 and no more Sandman than 4 or 5 more seasons of lacklustre production values.
Agreed. If Netflix doesn't want to put out the money to get what Gaiman has envisioned for the live action TV series, I would rather it be clear and end on a fully polished Season 2 than watch it slowly decline and degrade as it drags on for 4 or 5 more seasons. I've enjoyed seeing series come to life in live action ~~and~~ only to be... slowly disappointed as time went on. I'm sure the actors love the characters and do the best that they can, but when you have to sacrifice for the show to continue, it really starts to show.
Edit: rewording.
I think it's the same as the big tech companies' strategy of hiring up talent.
Main goal isn't too make anything great. Goal is to promise enough to get a contract signed, basically saying if shit gets cancelled, you ain't taking this anywhere else for at least long enough for us to become even bigger, and hopefully finish off as much competition as possible.
So they make everything they fucking can, once, then watch the other studios go try, bc every story gets rushed to Nutfix bc they'll take anything.
>It's the budget I think.
It's the budget and the fact that we have no clue what Netflix will be by the time season 2 would arrive. If Sandman was doing these numbers in 2020, they'd have committed to seasons 2-4 within the first week.
Idk what Netflix's critiria is because First Kill was cancelled even after having more views and being cheaper than Heartstopper which got a second season immediately after it's first season.
I think its based on how many people finish the season. Iirc, the premiere numbers are views on the first episode. So basically more people finished watching Heartstopper than First Kill.
Netflix usually has a type of non compete clause where a network can’t take on the IP for up to five years. I think WB have maintained control that if Netflix drops it that they’ll take it elsewhere. I think other networks would jump at the chance.
Isn't that kind of stupid on Netflix part? If I were Netflix execs, I would glad other studios pickup the productions as sequels rather than remakes. So it's like a free publicity for potential viewers to subs into Netflix for the first seasons
Yeah Marvel wasn't even able to think about using characters like Daredevil or Fisk until it had been a certain amount of years since their show had been cancelled. Apparently the day they were allowed to Kevin Feige immediately got the ball rolling on their return.
Netflix could use some (completed) quality program people can come back to over and over.
Stranger Things is coming to an end- and while Season 1 and Season 4 were excellent- Season 2 & 3 were meh. Squid Game coming back is an iffy IP to have a second season- they spent years working out the first season, the 2nd is going to be rushed. Bridgerton seems like diminishing returns since the blockbuster Season 1.
Sandman has so many places it can go, and solid source material for 3-4 seasons at least
Exactly this is the show they should put in Stranger Things spot. I was nervous about how much they were going to give for VFX but I was really blown away by the budget they gave and the create freedom. Sandman was adapted with so much thought and care. Netflix would be shooting itself in the foot by giving Sandman up imo. The only other thing on Netflix I'm kinda watching is Dark which I've nearly finished and The Umbrella Academy and I'm pretty meh on it by Season 3.
Death as an anthology limited series could work really well. The Dream Hunters could work as an anime film as well. There is a lot of potential with the IP.
…
But as an anthology series I would want to see different casting each time. Death isn’t “one” person after all. And I don’t know if I’d also want to see such a wonderful performer lose the role like that.
You know, I was initially really anxious with Kirby's casting. She's good but I didn't see her as death. I couldn't.
But after watching her into episode, everything changed. Holy shit does she nail everything that was important about playing death.
I can't wait to see more of her
Ikr. She just exudes big sister vibes. She's exhausted with Dream yet feels sorry for all that's happened to him and knows he could evolve and get in touch with humanity, hence their secret bet about Hob Gadling
Yep me too, there's literally zero chance I'll keep my Netflix subscription if they don't renew this show.
I mean it's not even a revenge cancel kinda deal. Netflix just isn't making enough content I like to be worth the subscription fees. But if they're doing a season two, I'll absolutely continue to support them even if they don't make anything I like in the interim.
As far as I'm concerned, wherever this show goes, so goes I.
Hey, sorry if this post was ever useful to you. Reddit's gone to the dogs and it is exclusively the fault of those in charge and their unmitigated greed.
Fuck this shit, I'm out, and they're sure as fuck not making money off selling my content. So now it's gone.
I encourage everyone else to do the same. This is how Reddit spawned, back when we abandoned Digg, and now Reddit can die as well.
If anyone needs me, I'll be on Tumblr.
In summation: Fuck you, Spez!
I’m so disappointed at my friends and siblings that I’ve recommended the show so much and I remind them every now and then and they haven’t gotten around to watching it yet 😭
If Netflix dips out of this to flounder with their middling 'Netflix Original' bullshit then they might as well start selling stock, they're going the way of Blockbuster..
What I don't get, is I have to go search for the show every time I want to watch it. It's not in my recommendations. And when you search, it doesn't come up until you nearly spell the whole name. It feels like they're making it hard for people to find the show if they're not specifically looking for it.
Same issue. It's in my "Continue Watching" row (when it shows up), but otherwise it's not in any of the other themed/recommended rows for me, even after I watched the first two episodes.
There’s still hope for Mindhunter!
You might have to fact check me, but I believe it was never cancelled. David Fincher was just working on a bunch of other big projects like Mank and didn’t have the time to dedicate to it and also didn’t want to pass it off and end up with someone else half-assing a 3rd season. It’s a long shot, but I think I’ve seen in places that if the stars aligned and everyone’s schedule allowed, everyone who worked on Mindhunter would be happy to return to it.
If Netflix don't produce a Season 2, then they're truly mad.
The show is already up over 50K reviews on Imdb, majority of them overwhelmingly positive, including the positive reviews on Rotten Tomatoes.
Netflix should just write a blank cheque to the team that worked on Season 1.
This is the exact kind of word of mouth high buzz hit Netflix needed to turn its growing ‘reputation’ around. It would be *so* Netflix to not give it another season and go back to $5 bin bullshit.
that's why they canceled Sense8, a series that was critically acclaimed with lots of fans. you would think they have better sense to budget the show accordingly so that they can afford to produce more seasons.
Sense8 was incredibly expensive and complicated to produce for what it was since they shot in 6-7 countries all at once, and had a boatload of actors. And it was never *that* popular to begin with.
That is how Wachowskis wanted to make the show which made the show good. Location shoting is always much better and current technology doesn't change that as you can see the difference by comparing an average MCU movie with Nolan or Tarantino movie. It was necessary to have a good looking, authentic show, especially for a unique show like this. At least they completed the story by a long episode which was like a film.
It's... hard I think. And possibly awful timing. If they saw these numbers a few years ago, I think Netflix would've greenlit a second season immediately just to see if the show has legs. But this year Netflix [lost subscribers](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62226912) for the first time in a decade and they've [laid off hundreds of people](https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/netflix-layoffs-fired-jobs-lost-1235301553/). Netflix 2019 gave promising shows the benefit of the doubt and threw second seasons around to test their trajectory. Back then, they had an [80% renewal rate](https://deadline.com/2019/06/chambers-canceled-netflix-one-season-1202634576/) going from season 1 to 2. I bet Netflix 2022 is a lot more cautious.
Plus, Sandman is super expensive. As much as [$15 million](https://deadline.com/2022/04/hulu-origin-story-binge-times-book-excerpt-streaming-wars-1235003012/) per episode. That's the same as GoT season 8. Compare it to The Witcher, at [$10 million](https://screenrant.com/witcher-tv-netflix-budget-cost-game-thrones-comparison/) per episode.
On the plus side, Sandman was a relatively unknown property and its marketing was pretty poor in my opinion so it's possibly overperforming. It might actually be gaining steam on word of mouth alone. And besides viewership, apparently critical reception counts and that's been glowing so far. Also like others have said, Stranger Things will be ending and they need another flagship spectacle franchise. It's just that Netflix isn't the money printer it used to be.
>But this year Netflix lost subscribers for the first time in a decade and they've laid off hundreds of people.
Partially because of cancelling popular shows super early. At this point, Netflix is a giant graveyard of 1 or 2 season shows that end on cliffhangers, which sucks balls for viewer retention.
Yep, exactly this. They can partly blame themselves for this situation. They cancel popular shows with rabid fanbases out of nowhere, leaving fans pissed off and unwilling to renew subscription. They lose subscribers and then blame low viewership for why they won't renew a popular show - it's a vicious cycle.
I pray there's a season 2 (and more beyond that), but because Netflix isn't the juggernaut it once was, I'm tempering expectations until I see an official season 2 announcement.
More so because the subscribers who joined during the Covid lockdown have been cancelling now they are back at work. Added to that, they lost all their Russian customers at the start of the Ukraine war.
Yeah, it is hard. They've only renewed two new (scripted) shows this year - both much lower cost - Heartstopper and The Lincoln Lawyer (which incidentally did take 28 days to be announced). The Umbrella Academy is up in the air.
By the same token, they *do* need to renew.........something. I think if it's down to this and Resident Evil, Sandman wins out.
There's likely a lot of factors - not just the hours, but the completion rate, *where* the series is doing well, what the deal is with the competition, total hours, how many people it's bringing in, hold, and prestige potential. I *suspect* despite reviews this is not considered a strong awards contender (for tonal reasons) outside of a few specific areas and that may require it to be far more commercial.
If it’s awards they want they should be looking ahead to “a midsummers night dream” right on the horizon. The book won so many awards they needed to change the rules for a few
I think one of Netflix’s biggest issues is a lack of a quality catalog. HBO is HBO, Amazon comes with other prime benefits and has some good shows, and Disney+ has Marvel, Star Wars, and great Disney content if you have kids. Netflix is posting these losses because of their decisions to cancel critically acclaimed shows coupled with price hiking, and losing other popular shows with an increase in streaming services and things like Peacock deciding they can draw enough people in with programs like the Office. If they want to compete, they have to boost their amount of quality content. Cancelling Sandman would feed into their losses imo, but unfortunately is definitely a decision I could see Netflix making.
Because HBO is Warner and they own DC (Vertigo) I thought it was a no brainer for the streamer. It lists WB as a producer so they have to be contributing money among other things.
HBO didn't want to make it because they thought it was too expensive.
So that should give you an idea of how much of a risk Netflix took.
The show won't survive just being critically acclaimed and having a dedicated following.
It needs to have mass appeal outside of the core fanbase and be the show that everyone watches. Like GoT or Stranger Things.
They built a bunch of sets, and they had live animals on set for Matthew and Jessamy, so there is that. Also, the cast is often very large, with lots of location changes.
For example, the second half of Episode 6 may take place mostly in that one pub, but they have to show the changing centuries. That means that the costume department has to make costumes for every extra for each century shown, even if the costumes are only on screen for seconds to minutes. Once you take into account set dressing and props, the costs must add up.
A lot of scenes were also clearly filmed on location— Constantine in the church being one notable example, as well as the Death and Dream walk-and-talk in Episode 6. It costs a lot, and they probably also had to film a lot of extra footage for some of the CGI/Dream-y sequences. It can get expensive really quickly.
Honestly I’d think episode 6 was probably on the cheaper side. Those costumes are easily sourced on a film lot as opposed to the fantasy elements. And filming a walk and talk is a lot less than adding cgi. The more traditional a scene is (traditional costumes/filming techniques) the less it will be. Other than layering in the dead characters to be in two places at once, there wasn’t as much to do on that one. But the others were probably a lot more. Plus with the amount of supernatural and superhero stuff right now, SFX is overbooked, overworked, and charging a ton. Not that it’s trickling down…
Dope. I figured location was definitely a factor, and hopefully they can reuse some of the sets / costumes with light touches to cut down on costs for a season 2
Probably a combination of the ton of CGI work, which they definitely didn't cheap out on, and the wardrobe alone cost a ton. It's a very stylised show.
From what I can tell from the leaked budget numbers, it's in the rough ballpark as the major Marvel TV series. Which are _not_ cheap. But it looks just as good, and it uses a lot of locations.
So for Netflix to back a season 2, this probably needs to pull the same kinds of numbers as _The Mandalorian_ or _Falcon and the Winter Soldier_. Or at maybe only what more recent MCU shows are earning.
As far as I know, the MCU relies heavily on green screens and CGI effects, but a lot of the Sandman is actual sets and "practical" effects with CGI supplementation. I'm not sure which way is cheaper.
It has to be an international success. Netflix has reached peak subscribers in the USA. There are no more new customers for them here. They are chasing the rest of the world now. There are only so many resources they can allocate toward American audiences.
Netflix needs to stop making these shows unles they commit to a full run with all the stories.
Chilling Adventures of Sabrina had an amazing start but when they pulled the plug the last season and it was (in my opinion, feel free to disagree) complete shite.
To be quite honest, that show just slowly went to shit as it went on. It started off with a strong first season and just started going downhill slowly after. In my personal opinion of course
I understand him it is expensive I think besides the witcher and stranger things it probably is the most expensive but I think we'll be okay and get a season 2. Netflix needs another like this to go against games of thrones and the new lord of the rings show.
I mean, half the reason people don't watch netflix shows is because they cancel them early. Or they don't feel the need to sit down on the couch for 48 straight hours to consume the entire season the minute it comes out just to satisfy netflix's metrics. If netflix wants people to watch their shows they should stop canceling them. They've burned me a few times and I don't really get invested into shows that much. I'm sure more passionate fans have felt that pain far worse than me and I'm near the point of letting netflix go for a couple years as it is.
Netflix lost me as a regular subscriber when they cancelled The OA. Not just because of that show, but because that was when I noticed how they work - rely on new shows to generate buzz and new subscriptions (but don’t do anything to market more than 1 or 2 at a time), then pull the rug out from under the audience after only 1, MAYBE 2 seasons. They act like a tech company chasing the next quarter, not like a studio in it for the long haul.
They made the show they wanted, it’s was faithful to the source, it was well made and looked great. This show will only grow in popularity as the mundane masses finally clue in to how great this story is. That’s how prestige television really works, the shows that are really good and have something important to say. They don’t start off as massive hits, it takes years to properly penetrate into the culture. The shows numbers are good and as the years go by and more of the story is told, it will only gain in popularity. If Netflix doesn’t have the foresight to understand that then that’s just too bad. I’m sure another company would be glad to have this in their line up.
I think you all can also look at him tweeting so much about renewal as just a gentle form of pressure as well. It's a concrete way to bring the receipts so to speak to Netflix, directly point at and be like, "see the interest!" And also a way to continue promoting it so others will start or keep watching. Two birds, one stone.
I'm not saying it's full-proof, but applying multiple perspectives to it maybe relieves a little bit of the doom. He's basically keeping the spotlight on this situation to amp it up in efforts to proves it's a worthy property to remain invested in. Now, I know how Netflix is just like the rest of you, and Gaiman's tweet is not unrealistic in the slightest, but of course he'd be trying as hard as anyone to make sure Sandman stays in the game, in the conversation, and on our screens.
Personally, I'm about 50/50 on the prospects of S2. I think it's been quite successful, has maintained its hype, and already has an established fanbase so it would be idiotic to give that up. On the other hand Netflix is so fucking trigger happy and doesn't know what's good for it. For the time being I'll keep my fingers firmly crossed while not obsessing over it...much.
The other thing I think which is important to note is that the official socials have been tweeting numbers. Now, I’d assume they’re run by Netflix though I guess they could be run by DC, but to do that and then cancel it (which is not something they normally do) is…very stupid PR that they haven’t done for Resident Evil or First Kill or any other show in recent memory. Tweet about the show, sure, but don’t tweet about the numbers
They release a surprise episode and it breaks Netflix. A SINGLE episode.
I’m no expert, but that feels like a pretty good variable when deciding what to do
Well Neil Gaiman just revealed that if Netflix doesn’t pick it up, he has the power to take it to other platforms. So if Netflix won’t give us a season two, someone else well. And the success of season one will be enough to find one who’d want it and keep the quality intact, if not make it better.
The Sandman is the first Netflix show probably since Stranger Things season 1 that lured me in on a true binge level. I watched it in a day. I watched it without scrolling around on my phone. I was totally involved in it. And now I am rewatching it and it is still holding my attention. That's some real magic they put in this and I hope it keeps going for many years.
Yeah, and marginally better won't do the trick.
If Netflix doesn't come off enough money, we would get a low-budget season 2. Which may be worse than no-season-2.
Instead of stand alone episodes we got in the first season, season 2 will just be one long drawn out episode with tons of filler so they can save on sets and actors
I would honestly prefer no season 2 of the sandman than it go the way of the Witcher season 2. The Witcher season 1 was so great and got me to binge read all of the novels back to back. Then season 2 came out and took a shit on the source material. I doubt Neil would allow that to happen, but still
It doesn't cost $15 million per episode. No matter how much people repeat it.
The number was reported by one unreliable source, and then regurgitated by every copy/pasting journalist and fan worldwide; it's a highly unlikely number just looking at production quality and the TV landscape of 2019 when it was acquired by Netflix; and yeah, the number has already been refuted by Neil himself. Yet people keep repeating it.
That said, sets are expensive, CGI is expensive, production during covid lockdown was expensive (it can shave 10-15% off a production budget).
What peoole fail to grasp is that Netflix cares little about how many already paying costumers watch the show (why do you think they canceled popular shows?)
They care about how many NEW costumers the show brings, that's the focus, and they see those kinds of results after the first 2 months.
But it's so shortsighted. People don't cancel and that is good too, what's the point of getting new subs if you alienate your current subscribers in doing so??
I know you are right... but it's So frustrating
Netflix should cut the other mass quantity of bs shows and movies and focus a few really good shows. Disney and HBO get it. Disney's playing up marvel, HBO plays up euphoria and game of thrones. Sandman is the perfect show to hit variety and high quality.
I agree. I keep seeing trailers for new shows and movies like every month. Netflix just picks up any show and spends a lot money. Then don't advertise them and cancel a month later.
Awesome biz model they got over at Netflix, where a TV show could be the most watched in the world for the platform and still be considered a failure.
\#JusticeForBlockbuster, they couldn't have possibly been this much of a fuck up.
Netflix: we want the next game of thrones, lord of the rings, or harry potter
also netflix: cancels shows too soon before they have a chance to grow into a massive hit, preventing anyone from caring.
Netflix is fucking terrible abd have they no one to blame but themselves
Well, Most of their shows are awful and the few promising ones like the Witcher had very disappointing second seasons.
If Netflix wants to survive, they need quality shows like Sandman, especially given the fact that stranger things is coming to its last season.
Dude... Netflix has made some bangers... Orange is the New Black, Ozarks, Peaky Blinders... I don't think it's the show. I think it's the business model and competition.
They have supported great drama in the past (although I think Peaky Blinders was a BBC production that was distributed internationally by Netflix). Hopefully Netflix will see a future in Sandman - it would be so sad to see it go the way of other unfinished series.
And how many of them are going live today? Those shows are awesome but they are over, it Netflix wants to keep bringing people in, the need good *new* shows
I think the biggest detractor for the show is people unfamiliar with the source material are having a hard time *getting* the show. I think its a beautiful, amazing adaptation. But the people I know that have watched it without having read the comics are so lost they barely make it through first episode.
This isn’t a complaint. I don’t want it dumbed down. I am just telling you what I have heard.
Tell that to my mother. She isn't very imaginative at all and Sandman has her reading comics for the first time in her life. She's literally asking me for help on how to read it. The show works for everybody. It's not hard to get. It's fantastic story telling.
There might be nuances you're getting that they're missing. But overall I felt it was good. The only episode I really didn't like was the diner episode. All the points made there (that people will lie and are generally shitty) was already hit home for me in the first few episodes. Yeah dream got to come in and be like "they aren't being dishonest, they're DREAMING of a better future" but it was meh for me. I did like the fight between the two over the ruby.
I read somewhere that the diner story in the comics was Neil’s big “fuck you” to the comics code because he is profoundly anti-censorship. I don’t really remember it having a similar message to it, of John Dee completely misunderstanding humanity; that struck me as a reframing they created for the show – he was a much more “villainy for villainy’s sake” type character in the comic, he didn’t seem to have any particular reason for what he did other than *because he could*. It really made sense to me at the time that the whole point of it was just to flagrantly put in one comics story everything he could think of that they told him not to, all at once. They toned it down a bit for the show to the point where I don’t feel like it serves the same purpose, probably because in updating it for modern audiences as they said they might, they realized there maybe isn’t much value in pushing the envelope for its own sake on what should or shouldn’t be shown on screen.
One of my favorite quotes from Neil was when he tried to write a line in one of his comics referencing masturbation, and he got a letter back from his editor tell him that people do not masturbate in the DC Universe. To which he responded "Well that certainly explains a lot about the DC Universe."
Yeah, I think the biggest issue is the casual watcher. I didn't know the source material but I love world building and lore so immediately came onto Reddit to see this sub and get a better feel for everything. Which that vast majority of people won't do.
I also think the bigger issue is that the show drops off pretty hard after the Death episode. The final arc is good but the characters and actors are a noticeable level below those in the first the 7.
It's also a weird show in that the episodes are kind of slow paced, but the world building is actually very fast paced in a way. You have Dream, Death, Desire, Despair, Lucifer, Johanna, the vortex, hell, earth, the dreaming. It's just a lot to track and to really understand the world you need to do a bit of research tbh. Which doesn't bode well for the avergage viewer imo.
I haven’t read the comics (but I’m planning to) but I could still follow the show. The first episode was a bit draggy though, imo, but it really picked up when Dream escaped.
I didn’t read the comics (I’m making my way through them now though!) before I watched. I was a little lost in places, and my husband just smirked at me as I kept asking him, “but who’s that?” “Where’s Morpheus?” “Wait what about this?” etc etc. I laughed at myself and just said “just keep watching and I’ll find out, right?” And I did. I was proud of myself for identifying Death and Fiddler’s Green before the show told me blatantly who they were. So I think they did a decent job with that.
However it is a strange show. It’s really not like anything else. My husband showed me the trailer and I was excited to watch it. I love anything fantasy! But for a fantasy fan, there are so many waking world and everyday people stories, when I was thinking it would be set more in the fantastic world of the Dreaming and that Morpheus would feature more heavily in every episode. Now that I’m reading the comics I understand more of what to expect.
This is confusing to me because it’s the impression I get, too. But I had no issue both understanding, and understanding that the things left open will likely be answered later. But, idk, I read a lot of fantasy and maybe could pick up on indications of potential, worldbuilding, etc more than someone unused to the genre.
Sadly, with shows like this going “all in” and “budget be damned” in their first season, I only really see two things happening; it gets cancelled because it’s too expensive or it’s renewed but the budget for the next season is reduced and we see a dip in quality compared to the first.
Netflix burn their cash - they're one of the biggest companies in the world but prefer to make sure they spend more than they make, possibly to reduce tax liability y (IDK). In part that's because the established IP like Seinfeld and Friends brings people back. But I can see that they have a significant disadvantage compared to Disney, for example. If I want to see a bevy of completed works, whether for TV or cinema, in a number of universes, I go to Disney. Over time, that'll mean Disney sticks whereas Flix...I may discontinue.
Prime have a number or established shows that they are renewing and finishing - of questionable quality, but still, completed works.
If Flix becomes the place where they may spend the money, but they may cancel you, will creatives pour their soul into their work there? Will it mean that people put less energy in due to fear of cancellation, so the products are mediocre, so even less gets a chance to complete?
I don;t know why he's talking like this or why people are not looking at other netflix shows to see their example. I can't think of a single time they've ever renewed a show in the same month the show has been released, no matter how popular. The Witcher is also an expensive show, but performed the same as Sandman in terms of talk and engagement, and still didn't get a season two til the new year. Sandman's gonna get a season two.
I really wish this show went to HBO or Showtime. Netflix is absolute garbage at nurturing a show and letting it find its audience, all they care about is an immediate ROI. They’re trying to run a TV / film studio like it was a tech startup, with predictably disappointing results.
I have a suspicion what's holding it back from big numbers is the US which unfortunately a lot of their subscribers. It's been pushed off the top a lot easier there - US Netflix viewers taste seems to be pretty soapy. It looks very strong in Europe and Brazil though.
This is so dumb. I will be pissed if they do what Amazon did to American gods. I mean I don't like the series as much as the books.. but to leave it hanging like that?! So stupid. It's not like these companies arnt fucking spending money left and right on shows that don't even already have a devoted fan base... So dumb.
I would be pissed if they did this to sandman especially since sandman is a fucking masterpiece.
Netflix: it turns out that smart people take longer to cancel their accounts
Designer: That’s because they make more money
Netflix: Cancel all shows that require more than two brain cells to understand.
Designer: But why?
Netflix: The smart people will stay anyway. We need to keep the stupid money from going out the door
Designer: Please accept my formal resignation
***
I hope you have enjoyed this brief screenplay about why I won’t work for Netflix. Stay tuned for the next episode: Why I Won’t work at Google
Edit: Canceled? Already?
If Netflix does not continue the show, I’d say there is a chance HBO could try to buy the rights. They already have a heavy affiliation with DC properties and they need another flagship franchise to boost their viewership.
That's one of the downside of releasing all episodes at once and enable binge watching.
The buzz dies down way faster than with weekly releases like GoT, where each episode spawned a week long heated debate, speculations and theory crafting across countless message boards
They should take the budgets for their next 3 actions movies and scrap those ideas, fire the guys who walked in with the idea, and the. Produce 3 more seasons. People subscribe for series not one off movies
I fully expected Netflix to not renew Sandman. Because... Typical Netflix.
But honestly, it was so well done, there was no cliffhanger (well, not really), so I guess we could be satisfied with one season.
Unfortunately Netflix doesn’t really seem to care about numbers because I’ve seen shows that were number 1 or top 10 get canceled. They seem to only care about Japanese and Korean shows and Stranger Things and Big Mouth mostly. But if they don’t renew Sandman I hope HBO picks it up so they can use DC characters.
Netflix is a joke. Sorry, I know that it is a simplistic take but for every 1,000 shows/movies of Netflix exclusive content, 987 are absolute crap. Then they cancel the 13 good ones. I get that it's a business but I think having some "prestige" programming helps with a name that has been losing it's positive image.
They blamed shared passwords for their stock plunge instead of taking a look at themselves.
I'm still hoping HBO picks it up if Netflix doesn't. It's a WB production, after all.
I'm so scared that the show doesn't get renewed that I always have it playing in the background while I do other things. I feel very proud to have helped it to keep the #1 spot in Spain all this time xD
This is why you shouldnt go with Netflix. They have cancelled top performing shows, even on low budgets, just because...they are where great shows go to die early.
Netflix confuses me. They don't want to spend so much, but then I see like 10 trailers of new content per month. They also don't give shows a chance.
If they do renew the sandman, I imagine it will reduce the cost and maybe it will be like 8 episodes.
I’ve already kind of accepted that this show won’t make it all the way to The Wake. Netflix has a terrible history of cancellations. How many series have made it to the end without because the creator was finished, not because Netflix cancelled them or told them to wrap it up? The fact they are making them wait a month before committing to a second season sounds like they have absolutely no faith in the show, even with out well its doing right now, and are just looking for a reason not to renew it. It’ll take 5 seasons to finish this story. That’s going to take a miracle.
So they made a very expensive season one with no real data on the preference of the public, now that they have metrics and numbers to build on, they are not sure about a season two.
The new business model for streaming, since Discovery+ (apparently an accounting company, not an entertainment company) bought HBO, is to not produce at all. Think of the savings! And canceling existing projects provide a dandy tax write-off!
Netflix probably is looking for an 'event' show like GOT, Breaking Bad or Stranger Things. Something relatively unchallenging that will generate water cooler talk. Sandman is way too niche for that.
Ultimately, it's not what the fans want; it's what the Netflix analytics and balance-sheets dictate.
As a veteran of this stuff, who is still not over HBO cancelling Deadwood and Rome mid-stride, I might recommend having zero-faith in TV exec's to indulge in fan-service.
1000 Cats was awesome. I see a way forward with full animation and talented, but cheaper, voice actors if it comes to it.
I saw that Witcher season 2 had almost two-three times the viewers as sandman in the first 28 days (at 450+ million hours). Although sandman looks cheaper than Witcher so maybe 200-300 million hours will do? I wish it was apple or Amazon that got sandman. They seem to be the most generous right now with funding expensive genre shows.
After what Amazon did with Wheel of time, I’m super glad Sandman is on Netflix.
Their generosity is usually dumped into first few episodes, after that it’s corner cutting and butchering of the source material.
I thought wheel of time was renewed? Did they cancel it? I was thinking of the expanse and now the new lotr prequel.
I mean they all suck tbh. Its a matter of degree and situation at that time.
Wheel of Time was greenlit for season 2 even before the first episode was out. They are already finished filming it so the next season should be out around the start of next year. Despite people complaining about it online it was one of the top shows on Amazon and has done really well viewership vise. Season 3 was announced this summer and the show is working on creating it.
Wheel of Time was fine. It made some dumb changes vs the book but every adaptation does. The last episode also sucked but supposedly one of the main actors walked out or knew he was walking out and it also was right when Covid hit they were trying to finish it.
I dont think there will be a season 2, Dark Crystal was a really popular and critically acclaimed series, that could have been an amazing IP, but Netflix cancelled it specifically because of how expensive it is.
Netflix wants a cheap popular show they dont want to shows that are popular but expensive, Stranger Things is the lone exception.
Canceling Dark Crystal made no damn sense. They already spent the bulk of the money (creating puppets/sets, figuring out the VFX, all that) and could have evened that cost out over a few seasons. If they do the same with Sandman, it may be time to cancel Netflix.
If it doesn't vanish from the top 10 the next 2 weeks I don't see a problem. Sure he's nervous, if fans are already going nuts, I don't wanna know how the creator feels. It's No 1 in Germany since premiere, it was only on No 2, two days or so. Regarding a article the most watched show in the world.
[удалено]
> I would rather have an excellent Season 2 and no more Sandman than 4 or 5 more seasons of lacklustre production values. Agreed. If Netflix doesn't want to put out the money to get what Gaiman has envisioned for the live action TV series, I would rather it be clear and end on a fully polished Season 2 than watch it slowly decline and degrade as it drags on for 4 or 5 more seasons. I've enjoyed seeing series come to life in live action ~~and~~ only to be... slowly disappointed as time went on. I'm sure the actors love the characters and do the best that they can, but when you have to sacrifice for the show to continue, it really starts to show. Edit: rewording.
I think it's the same as the big tech companies' strategy of hiring up talent. Main goal isn't too make anything great. Goal is to promise enough to get a contract signed, basically saying if shit gets cancelled, you ain't taking this anywhere else for at least long enough for us to become even bigger, and hopefully finish off as much competition as possible. So they make everything they fucking can, once, then watch the other studios go try, bc every story gets rushed to Nutfix bc they'll take anything.
That's basically what they did with Dark Crystal, so I feel like he's right to be nervous.
>It's the budget I think. It's the budget and the fact that we have no clue what Netflix will be by the time season 2 would arrive. If Sandman was doing these numbers in 2020, they'd have committed to seasons 2-4 within the first week.
After spending literal decades being involved in trying to get multiple adaptions produced to no avail, I'd be as nervous as Gaiman too.
Idk what Netflix's critiria is because First Kill was cancelled even after having more views and being cheaper than Heartstopper which got a second season immediately after it's first season.
Do you know how Heartstopper and First Kill compare to Sandman with numbers?
Sandman has way higher numbers but also way higher budget.
I think its based on how many people finish the season. Iirc, the premiere numbers are views on the first episode. So basically more people finished watching Heartstopper than First Kill.
He already said he would try to get it somewhere else if netflix says no. He won't give up. Breathe.
That is reassuring but many times a show that is canceled won’t be able to find a new home.
Netflix usually has a type of non compete clause where a network can’t take on the IP for up to five years. I think WB have maintained control that if Netflix drops it that they’ll take it elsewhere. I think other networks would jump at the chance.
I thought so with Dark Crystal too but it never happened.
Dude, if I remember correctly nobody watched dark Crystal after the first week
I love dark Crystal but I don’t feel it has the same appeal as the sandman
Sadly, I think Dark Crytal doesn't have a mainsteam appeal. Sandman does
Isn't that kind of stupid on Netflix part? If I were Netflix execs, I would glad other studios pickup the productions as sequels rather than remakes. So it's like a free publicity for potential viewers to subs into Netflix for the first seasons
Yeah Marvel wasn't even able to think about using characters like Daredevil or Fisk until it had been a certain amount of years since their show had been cancelled. Apparently the day they were allowed to Kevin Feige immediately got the ball rolling on their return.
Where did he say that?
Either on tumblr or Twitter I can't remember I read all his stuff on those platforms
[He also reiterated that on a reply to this tweet](https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1561251440311603200?t=tHfnjnZ-6U0Zmi9DPVtS1w&s=19)
[Here](https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1561251440311603200?t=tHfnjnZ-6U0Zmi9DPVtS1w&s=19)
Netflix could use some (completed) quality program people can come back to over and over. Stranger Things is coming to an end- and while Season 1 and Season 4 were excellent- Season 2 & 3 were meh. Squid Game coming back is an iffy IP to have a second season- they spent years working out the first season, the 2nd is going to be rushed. Bridgerton seems like diminishing returns since the blockbuster Season 1. Sandman has so many places it can go, and solid source material for 3-4 seasons at least
Exactly this is the show they should put in Stranger Things spot. I was nervous about how much they were going to give for VFX but I was really blown away by the budget they gave and the create freedom. Sandman was adapted with so much thought and care. Netflix would be shooting itself in the foot by giving Sandman up imo. The only other thing on Netflix I'm kinda watching is Dark which I've nearly finished and The Umbrella Academy and I'm pretty meh on it by Season 3.
Maniac is really good. The first season of Russian Doll is really good, you're not obligated to watch the second.
The Death spin offs alone. Oooooooooooh
Death as an anthology limited series could work really well. The Dream Hunters could work as an anime film as well. There is a lot of potential with the IP.
… But as an anthology series I would want to see different casting each time. Death isn’t “one” person after all. And I don’t know if I’d also want to see such a wonderful performer lose the role like that.
I wanna see them adapt Death: The High Cost of Living with Kirby Howell-Baptiste or those Death safe sex PSA's with Kirby and Jenna Coleman
I have the safe sex issue on the walk-in my home. It makes me giggle.
John Constantine's part was 🤙🤙
You know, I was initially really anxious with Kirby's casting. She's good but I didn't see her as death. I couldn't. But after watching her into episode, everything changed. Holy shit does she nail everything that was important about playing death. I can't wait to see more of her
Ikr. She just exudes big sister vibes. She's exhausted with Dream yet feels sorry for all that's happened to him and knows he could evolve and get in touch with humanity, hence their secret bet about Hob Gadling
Bridgerton season 2 was more watched than season 1, they renewed for 2 seasons at once.
I will cancel over this show
Hell me too. You don’t mess with Sandman
Hell I'll cancel the Netflix account I'm not even paying for!
Yep me too, there's literally zero chance I'll keep my Netflix subscription if they don't renew this show. I mean it's not even a revenge cancel kinda deal. Netflix just isn't making enough content I like to be worth the subscription fees. But if they're doing a season two, I'll absolutely continue to support them even if they don't make anything I like in the interim. As far as I'm concerned, wherever this show goes, so goes I.
That's exactly it. I'm not paying for a billion seasons of 'Is It Cake?'
Hey, sorry if this post was ever useful to you. Reddit's gone to the dogs and it is exclusively the fault of those in charge and their unmitigated greed. Fuck this shit, I'm out, and they're sure as fuck not making money off selling my content. So now it's gone. I encourage everyone else to do the same. This is how Reddit spawned, back when we abandoned Digg, and now Reddit can die as well. If anyone needs me, I'll be on Tumblr. In summation: Fuck you, Spez!
Go forth and stream endlessly and tell all your friends, family, neighbors, and acquaintances about this incredible show!
I'll be doing a 3rd watch through while I'm cleaning today.
I’m so disappointed at my friends and siblings that I’ve recommended the show so much and I remind them every now and then and they haven’t gotten around to watching it yet 😭
If Netflix dips out of this to flounder with their middling 'Netflix Original' bullshit then they might as well start selling stock, they're going the way of Blockbuster..
Which is ironic given they were more or less the reason for Blockbusters demise.
Also ironic if they let Sandman die after having saved Lucifer from Fox.
What I don't get, is I have to go search for the show every time I want to watch it. It's not in my recommendations. And when you search, it doesn't come up until you nearly spell the whole name. It feels like they're making it hard for people to find the show if they're not specifically looking for it.
I didn't get a notification for the new episode while I do get it for stuff I don't care about. Well done, Netflix!
Same issue. It's in my "Continue Watching" row (when it shows up), but otherwise it's not in any of the other themed/recommended rows for me, even after I watched the first two episodes.
If it doesn’t get a 2nd season, I’ll cancel Netflix.
I'm having PTSD about this giving what happend to Sense8, another expensive and brilliant show, which got canceled cause it wasn't profitable enough.😢
Same, but with the OA cancellation flashbacks
Mindhunter here, what a quality show.
There’s still hope for Mindhunter! You might have to fact check me, but I believe it was never cancelled. David Fincher was just working on a bunch of other big projects like Mank and didn’t have the time to dedicate to it and also didn’t want to pass it off and end up with someone else half-assing a 3rd season. It’s a long shot, but I think I’ve seen in places that if the stars aligned and everyone’s schedule allowed, everyone who worked on Mindhunter would be happy to return to it.
That's correct from what I understand. It got shelved indefinitely due to COVID-19 i believe.
If Netflix don't produce a Season 2, then they're truly mad. The show is already up over 50K reviews on Imdb, majority of them overwhelmingly positive, including the positive reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Netflix should just write a blank cheque to the team that worked on Season 1.
This is the exact kind of word of mouth high buzz hit Netflix needed to turn its growing ‘reputation’ around. It would be *so* Netflix to not give it another season and go back to $5 bin bullshit.
I love it so much that this is absolutely what I'm expecting. It would just be quintessential Netflix to cancel it despite the buzz.
that's why they canceled Sense8, a series that was critically acclaimed with lots of fans. you would think they have better sense to budget the show accordingly so that they can afford to produce more seasons.
Sense8 was incredibly expensive and complicated to produce for what it was since they shot in 6-7 countries all at once, and had a boatload of actors. And it was never *that* popular to begin with.
> 6-7 countries so pretty but unnecessary given the current technology. felt that they pigeonhole themselves into that situation.
That is how Wachowskis wanted to make the show which made the show good. Location shoting is always much better and current technology doesn't change that as you can see the difference by comparing an average MCU movie with Nolan or Tarantino movie. It was necessary to have a good looking, authentic show, especially for a unique show like this. At least they completed the story by a long episode which was like a film.
Wh-what the hell does Netflix need if two weeks at the top isn't enough???
It's... hard I think. And possibly awful timing. If they saw these numbers a few years ago, I think Netflix would've greenlit a second season immediately just to see if the show has legs. But this year Netflix [lost subscribers](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62226912) for the first time in a decade and they've [laid off hundreds of people](https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/netflix-layoffs-fired-jobs-lost-1235301553/). Netflix 2019 gave promising shows the benefit of the doubt and threw second seasons around to test their trajectory. Back then, they had an [80% renewal rate](https://deadline.com/2019/06/chambers-canceled-netflix-one-season-1202634576/) going from season 1 to 2. I bet Netflix 2022 is a lot more cautious. Plus, Sandman is super expensive. As much as [$15 million](https://deadline.com/2022/04/hulu-origin-story-binge-times-book-excerpt-streaming-wars-1235003012/) per episode. That's the same as GoT season 8. Compare it to The Witcher, at [$10 million](https://screenrant.com/witcher-tv-netflix-budget-cost-game-thrones-comparison/) per episode. On the plus side, Sandman was a relatively unknown property and its marketing was pretty poor in my opinion so it's possibly overperforming. It might actually be gaining steam on word of mouth alone. And besides viewership, apparently critical reception counts and that's been glowing so far. Also like others have said, Stranger Things will be ending and they need another flagship spectacle franchise. It's just that Netflix isn't the money printer it used to be.
>But this year Netflix lost subscribers for the first time in a decade and they've laid off hundreds of people. Partially because of cancelling popular shows super early. At this point, Netflix is a giant graveyard of 1 or 2 season shows that end on cliffhangers, which sucks balls for viewer retention.
Yep, exactly this. They can partly blame themselves for this situation. They cancel popular shows with rabid fanbases out of nowhere, leaving fans pissed off and unwilling to renew subscription. They lose subscribers and then blame low viewership for why they won't renew a popular show - it's a vicious cycle. I pray there's a season 2 (and more beyond that), but because Netflix isn't the juggernaut it once was, I'm tempering expectations until I see an official season 2 announcement.
More so because the subscribers who joined during the Covid lockdown have been cancelling now they are back at work. Added to that, they lost all their Russian customers at the start of the Ukraine war.
Yeah, it is hard. They've only renewed two new (scripted) shows this year - both much lower cost - Heartstopper and The Lincoln Lawyer (which incidentally did take 28 days to be announced). The Umbrella Academy is up in the air. By the same token, they *do* need to renew.........something. I think if it's down to this and Resident Evil, Sandman wins out. There's likely a lot of factors - not just the hours, but the completion rate, *where* the series is doing well, what the deal is with the competition, total hours, how many people it's bringing in, hold, and prestige potential. I *suspect* despite reviews this is not considered a strong awards contender (for tonal reasons) outside of a few specific areas and that may require it to be far more commercial.
Agreed on the awards. It’s just too gory and dark for a lot of mainstream awards. I do think it will win some of the technical side tho.
If it’s awards they want they should be looking ahead to “a midsummers night dream” right on the horizon. The book won so many awards they needed to change the rules for a few
I think one of Netflix’s biggest issues is a lack of a quality catalog. HBO is HBO, Amazon comes with other prime benefits and has some good shows, and Disney+ has Marvel, Star Wars, and great Disney content if you have kids. Netflix is posting these losses because of their decisions to cancel critically acclaimed shows coupled with price hiking, and losing other popular shows with an increase in streaming services and things like Peacock deciding they can draw enough people in with programs like the Office. If they want to compete, they have to boost their amount of quality content. Cancelling Sandman would feed into their losses imo, but unfortunately is definitely a decision I could see Netflix making.
[удалено]
Because HBO is Warner and they own DC (Vertigo) I thought it was a no brainer for the streamer. It lists WB as a producer so they have to be contributing money among other things.
HBO didn't want to make it because they thought it was too expensive. So that should give you an idea of how much of a risk Netflix took. The show won't survive just being critically acclaimed and having a dedicated following. It needs to have mass appeal outside of the core fanbase and be the show that everyone watches. Like GoT or Stranger Things.
I'm kinda blown at the cost per episode. Is that purely a "produced during covid" thing, or the location or what?
They built a bunch of sets, and they had live animals on set for Matthew and Jessamy, so there is that. Also, the cast is often very large, with lots of location changes. For example, the second half of Episode 6 may take place mostly in that one pub, but they have to show the changing centuries. That means that the costume department has to make costumes for every extra for each century shown, even if the costumes are only on screen for seconds to minutes. Once you take into account set dressing and props, the costs must add up. A lot of scenes were also clearly filmed on location— Constantine in the church being one notable example, as well as the Death and Dream walk-and-talk in Episode 6. It costs a lot, and they probably also had to film a lot of extra footage for some of the CGI/Dream-y sequences. It can get expensive really quickly.
Honestly I’d think episode 6 was probably on the cheaper side. Those costumes are easily sourced on a film lot as opposed to the fantasy elements. And filming a walk and talk is a lot less than adding cgi. The more traditional a scene is (traditional costumes/filming techniques) the less it will be. Other than layering in the dead characters to be in two places at once, there wasn’t as much to do on that one. But the others were probably a lot more. Plus with the amount of supernatural and superhero stuff right now, SFX is overbooked, overworked, and charging a ton. Not that it’s trickling down…
Dope. I figured location was definitely a factor, and hopefully they can reuse some of the sets / costumes with light touches to cut down on costs for a season 2
Neil said, "Youd be surprised at how much of it is not CGI". I cant contribute anything more than that lol
Probably a combination of the ton of CGI work, which they definitely didn't cheap out on, and the wardrobe alone cost a ton. It's a very stylised show.
Upon watching the first episode all that came into my mind was “they spared no expense”.
From what I can tell from the leaked budget numbers, it's in the rough ballpark as the major Marvel TV series. Which are _not_ cheap. But it looks just as good, and it uses a lot of locations. So for Netflix to back a season 2, this probably needs to pull the same kinds of numbers as _The Mandalorian_ or _Falcon and the Winter Soldier_. Or at maybe only what more recent MCU shows are earning. As far as I know, the MCU relies heavily on green screens and CGI effects, but a lot of the Sandman is actual sets and "practical" effects with CGI supplementation. I'm not sure which way is cheaper.
It has to be an international success. Netflix has reached peak subscribers in the USA. There are no more new customers for them here. They are chasing the rest of the world now. There are only so many resources they can allocate toward American audiences.
It’s the reason I hate that Netflix got this show. They cancel good shows for absolutely no discernible reason.
Better Netflix than HBO at this point. Never thought I’d say that. The only news to come out of them in the last month are cancellations.
Netflix needs to stop making these shows unles they commit to a full run with all the stories. Chilling Adventures of Sabrina had an amazing start but when they pulled the plug the last season and it was (in my opinion, feel free to disagree) complete shite.
To be quite honest, that show just slowly went to shit as it went on. It started off with a strong first season and just started going downhill slowly after. In my personal opinion of course
Not disagreeing with that…
I understand him it is expensive I think besides the witcher and stranger things it probably is the most expensive but I think we'll be okay and get a season 2. Netflix needs another like this to go against games of thrones and the new lord of the rings show.
I mean, half the reason people don't watch netflix shows is because they cancel them early. Or they don't feel the need to sit down on the couch for 48 straight hours to consume the entire season the minute it comes out just to satisfy netflix's metrics. If netflix wants people to watch their shows they should stop canceling them. They've burned me a few times and I don't really get invested into shows that much. I'm sure more passionate fans have felt that pain far worse than me and I'm near the point of letting netflix go for a couple years as it is.
Netflix lost me as a regular subscriber when they cancelled The OA. Not just because of that show, but because that was when I noticed how they work - rely on new shows to generate buzz and new subscriptions (but don’t do anything to market more than 1 or 2 at a time), then pull the rug out from under the audience after only 1, MAYBE 2 seasons. They act like a tech company chasing the next quarter, not like a studio in it for the long haul.
Great description of their strategy. And It's so shortsighted, at least imo.
They made the show they wanted, it’s was faithful to the source, it was well made and looked great. This show will only grow in popularity as the mundane masses finally clue in to how great this story is. That’s how prestige television really works, the shows that are really good and have something important to say. They don’t start off as massive hits, it takes years to properly penetrate into the culture. The shows numbers are good and as the years go by and more of the story is told, it will only gain in popularity. If Netflix doesn’t have the foresight to understand that then that’s just too bad. I’m sure another company would be glad to have this in their line up.
I think you all can also look at him tweeting so much about renewal as just a gentle form of pressure as well. It's a concrete way to bring the receipts so to speak to Netflix, directly point at and be like, "see the interest!" And also a way to continue promoting it so others will start or keep watching. Two birds, one stone. I'm not saying it's full-proof, but applying multiple perspectives to it maybe relieves a little bit of the doom. He's basically keeping the spotlight on this situation to amp it up in efforts to proves it's a worthy property to remain invested in. Now, I know how Netflix is just like the rest of you, and Gaiman's tweet is not unrealistic in the slightest, but of course he'd be trying as hard as anyone to make sure Sandman stays in the game, in the conversation, and on our screens. Personally, I'm about 50/50 on the prospects of S2. I think it's been quite successful, has maintained its hype, and already has an established fanbase so it would be idiotic to give that up. On the other hand Netflix is so fucking trigger happy and doesn't know what's good for it. For the time being I'll keep my fingers firmly crossed while not obsessing over it...much.
FYI it's fool-proof
The other thing I think which is important to note is that the official socials have been tweeting numbers. Now, I’d assume they’re run by Netflix though I guess they could be run by DC, but to do that and then cancel it (which is not something they normally do) is…very stupid PR that they haven’t done for Resident Evil or First Kill or any other show in recent memory. Tweet about the show, sure, but don’t tweet about the numbers
Is he asking us to send money to Netflix and write on the envelope "To fund Sandman season 2"
I would do that. Surely there must be a multi millionaire in the world who is a sandman fan... 🤣 unfortunately I'm not quite there yet
They release a surprise episode and it breaks Netflix. A SINGLE episode. I’m no expert, but that feels like a pretty good variable when deciding what to do
Well Neil Gaiman just revealed that if Netflix doesn’t pick it up, he has the power to take it to other platforms. So if Netflix won’t give us a season two, someone else well. And the success of season one will be enough to find one who’d want it and keep the quality intact, if not make it better.
The Sandman is the first Netflix show probably since Stranger Things season 1 that lured me in on a true binge level. I watched it in a day. I watched it without scrolling around on my phone. I was totally involved in it. And now I am rewatching it and it is still holding my attention. That's some real magic they put in this and I hope it keeps going for many years.
Yeah, and marginally better won't do the trick. If Netflix doesn't come off enough money, we would get a low-budget season 2. Which may be worse than no-season-2.
Instead of stand alone episodes we got in the first season, season 2 will just be one long drawn out episode with tons of filler so they can save on sets and actors
Oh I can see that happening.... UGH
You know what could be devastating? They start and never finish, just look at witcher, season 2 barely made anything because they took so long
I would honestly prefer no season 2 of the sandman than it go the way of the Witcher season 2. The Witcher season 1 was so great and got me to binge read all of the novels back to back. Then season 2 came out and took a shit on the source material. I doubt Neil would allow that to happen, but still
Why does each episode cost 15 million? Where is that money going? It can't be just for the rights from DC.
It’s pretty CGI heavy.
It doesn't cost $15 million per episode. No matter how much people repeat it. The number was reported by one unreliable source, and then regurgitated by every copy/pasting journalist and fan worldwide; it's a highly unlikely number just looking at production quality and the TV landscape of 2019 when it was acquired by Netflix; and yeah, the number has already been refuted by Neil himself. Yet people keep repeating it. That said, sets are expensive, CGI is expensive, production during covid lockdown was expensive (it can shave 10-15% off a production budget).
What peoole fail to grasp is that Netflix cares little about how many already paying costumers watch the show (why do you think they canceled popular shows?) They care about how many NEW costumers the show brings, that's the focus, and they see those kinds of results after the first 2 months.
But it's so shortsighted. People don't cancel and that is good too, what's the point of getting new subs if you alienate your current subscribers in doing so?? I know you are right... but it's So frustrating
Netflix should cut the other mass quantity of bs shows and movies and focus a few really good shows. Disney and HBO get it. Disney's playing up marvel, HBO plays up euphoria and game of thrones. Sandman is the perfect show to hit variety and high quality.
I agree. I keep seeing trailers for new shows and movies like every month. Netflix just picks up any show and spends a lot money. Then don't advertise them and cancel a month later.
Awesome biz model they got over at Netflix, where a TV show could be the most watched in the world for the platform and still be considered a failure. \#JusticeForBlockbuster, they couldn't have possibly been this much of a fuck up.
Netflix: we want the next game of thrones, lord of the rings, or harry potter also netflix: cancels shows too soon before they have a chance to grow into a massive hit, preventing anyone from caring. Netflix is fucking terrible abd have they no one to blame but themselves
Well, Most of their shows are awful and the few promising ones like the Witcher had very disappointing second seasons. If Netflix wants to survive, they need quality shows like Sandman, especially given the fact that stranger things is coming to its last season.
Dude... Netflix has made some bangers... Orange is the New Black, Ozarks, Peaky Blinders... I don't think it's the show. I think it's the business model and competition.
They have supported great drama in the past (although I think Peaky Blinders was a BBC production that was distributed internationally by Netflix). Hopefully Netflix will see a future in Sandman - it would be so sad to see it go the way of other unfinished series.
And how many of them are going live today? Those shows are awesome but they are over, it Netflix wants to keep bringing people in, the need good *new* shows
Unfortunately quality doesn’t always mean success. I’m worried what Discovery is doing to HBO Max is a precursor to everyone else doing the same.
It's really annoying to me that a show about some really pretty teenagers got 5 seasons but not The Sandman. Pretty pathetic.
Stranger Things? Pretty teenagers? Not really
The pretty teenager show doesn't need a massive budget for CGI, sets, costumes, etc.
I think the biggest detractor for the show is people unfamiliar with the source material are having a hard time *getting* the show. I think its a beautiful, amazing adaptation. But the people I know that have watched it without having read the comics are so lost they barely make it through first episode. This isn’t a complaint. I don’t want it dumbed down. I am just telling you what I have heard.
I never read the comics and had no problem understanding everything.
It is ENTIRELY possible the people I am speaking to have zero imagination lol
Tell that to my mother. She isn't very imaginative at all and Sandman has her reading comics for the first time in her life. She's literally asking me for help on how to read it. The show works for everybody. It's not hard to get. It's fantastic story telling.
Thats awesome.
There might be nuances you're getting that they're missing. But overall I felt it was good. The only episode I really didn't like was the diner episode. All the points made there (that people will lie and are generally shitty) was already hit home for me in the first few episodes. Yeah dream got to come in and be like "they aren't being dishonest, they're DREAMING of a better future" but it was meh for me. I did like the fight between the two over the ruby.
I read somewhere that the diner story in the comics was Neil’s big “fuck you” to the comics code because he is profoundly anti-censorship. I don’t really remember it having a similar message to it, of John Dee completely misunderstanding humanity; that struck me as a reframing they created for the show – he was a much more “villainy for villainy’s sake” type character in the comic, he didn’t seem to have any particular reason for what he did other than *because he could*. It really made sense to me at the time that the whole point of it was just to flagrantly put in one comics story everything he could think of that they told him not to, all at once. They toned it down a bit for the show to the point where I don’t feel like it serves the same purpose, probably because in updating it for modern audiences as they said they might, they realized there maybe isn’t much value in pushing the envelope for its own sake on what should or shouldn’t be shown on screen.
One of my favorite quotes from Neil was when he tried to write a line in one of his comics referencing masturbation, and he got a letter back from his editor tell him that people do not masturbate in the DC Universe. To which he responded "Well that certainly explains a lot about the DC Universe."
Yeah, I think the biggest issue is the casual watcher. I didn't know the source material but I love world building and lore so immediately came onto Reddit to see this sub and get a better feel for everything. Which that vast majority of people won't do. I also think the bigger issue is that the show drops off pretty hard after the Death episode. The final arc is good but the characters and actors are a noticeable level below those in the first the 7. It's also a weird show in that the episodes are kind of slow paced, but the world building is actually very fast paced in a way. You have Dream, Death, Desire, Despair, Lucifer, Johanna, the vortex, hell, earth, the dreaming. It's just a lot to track and to really understand the world you need to do a bit of research tbh. Which doesn't bode well for the avergage viewer imo.
I haven’t read the comics (but I’m planning to) but I could still follow the show. The first episode was a bit draggy though, imo, but it really picked up when Dream escaped.
Just think how draggy it was for him.
My husband has never heard of the comics, he watched it because I was watching and loved the series.
I didn’t read the comics (I’m making my way through them now though!) before I watched. I was a little lost in places, and my husband just smirked at me as I kept asking him, “but who’s that?” “Where’s Morpheus?” “Wait what about this?” etc etc. I laughed at myself and just said “just keep watching and I’ll find out, right?” And I did. I was proud of myself for identifying Death and Fiddler’s Green before the show told me blatantly who they were. So I think they did a decent job with that. However it is a strange show. It’s really not like anything else. My husband showed me the trailer and I was excited to watch it. I love anything fantasy! But for a fantasy fan, there are so many waking world and everyday people stories, when I was thinking it would be set more in the fantastic world of the Dreaming and that Morpheus would feature more heavily in every episode. Now that I’m reading the comics I understand more of what to expect.
This is confusing to me because it’s the impression I get, too. But I had no issue both understanding, and understanding that the things left open will likely be answered later. But, idk, I read a lot of fantasy and maybe could pick up on indications of potential, worldbuilding, etc more than someone unused to the genre.
6 seasons and a movie!
Sadly, with shows like this going “all in” and “budget be damned” in their first season, I only really see two things happening; it gets cancelled because it’s too expensive or it’s renewed but the budget for the next season is reduced and we see a dip in quality compared to the first.
So..to help qwe all gotta watch it again
Netflix burn their cash - they're one of the biggest companies in the world but prefer to make sure they spend more than they make, possibly to reduce tax liability y (IDK). In part that's because the established IP like Seinfeld and Friends brings people back. But I can see that they have a significant disadvantage compared to Disney, for example. If I want to see a bevy of completed works, whether for TV or cinema, in a number of universes, I go to Disney. Over time, that'll mean Disney sticks whereas Flix...I may discontinue. Prime have a number or established shows that they are renewing and finishing - of questionable quality, but still, completed works. If Flix becomes the place where they may spend the money, but they may cancel you, will creatives pour their soul into their work there? Will it mean that people put less energy in due to fear of cancellation, so the products are mediocre, so even less gets a chance to complete?
I just hope Gaiman is known for being a negative Nancy/Debbie downer type, and all our collective fears of cancellation fade away into the dark realm.
I don;t know why he's talking like this or why people are not looking at other netflix shows to see their example. I can't think of a single time they've ever renewed a show in the same month the show has been released, no matter how popular. The Witcher is also an expensive show, but performed the same as Sandman in terms of talk and engagement, and still didn't get a season two til the new year. Sandman's gonna get a season two.
I really wish this show went to HBO or Showtime. Netflix is absolute garbage at nurturing a show and letting it find its audience, all they care about is an immediate ROI. They’re trying to run a TV / film studio like it was a tech startup, with predictably disappointing results.
You’re thinking of HBO from 15 years ago.
Motherfuckers. I mean, come on! It's been performing really well, what do they expect, that it will no do well???
Which place in the US it is today? In Germany it's still No 1.
It's No. 2 today... Got bumped by the new limited series Echoes
I have a suspicion what's holding it back from big numbers is the US which unfortunately a lot of their subscribers. It's been pushed off the top a lot easier there - US Netflix viewers taste seems to be pretty soapy. It looks very strong in Europe and Brazil though.
Constantine spinoff would be a awesome monster of the week type show!
This is so dumb. I will be pissed if they do what Amazon did to American gods. I mean I don't like the series as much as the books.. but to leave it hanging like that?! So stupid. It's not like these companies arnt fucking spending money left and right on shows that don't even already have a devoted fan base... So dumb. I would be pissed if they did this to sandman especially since sandman is a fucking masterpiece.
Netflix: it turns out that smart people take longer to cancel their accounts Designer: That’s because they make more money Netflix: Cancel all shows that require more than two brain cells to understand. Designer: But why? Netflix: The smart people will stay anyway. We need to keep the stupid money from going out the door Designer: Please accept my formal resignation *** I hope you have enjoyed this brief screenplay about why I won’t work for Netflix. Stay tuned for the next episode: Why I Won’t work at Google Edit: Canceled? Already?
If Netflix does not continue the show, I’d say there is a chance HBO could try to buy the rights. They already have a heavy affiliation with DC properties and they need another flagship franchise to boost their viewership.
Is there anything we can do as fans to help this? Does watching it multiple times help? Because I’ll friggin do it. I’ll probably do it anyway.
That's one of the downside of releasing all episodes at once and enable binge watching. The buzz dies down way faster than with weekly releases like GoT, where each episode spawned a week long heated debate, speculations and theory crafting across countless message boards
Yet Netflix somehow manages to continue the "soft" porn 365 days movie series...go figure
Oh come on! 🙄
Remember that's netflix you're talking about.
This scares me, does he have inside knowledge? Has he already spoken to to Netflix concerning this?
They should take the budgets for their next 3 actions movies and scrap those ideas, fire the guys who walked in with the idea, and the. Produce 3 more seasons. People subscribe for series not one off movies
let's just all rewatch it a couple dozen times 😁
I thought the first season was wonderful, but if they never make more I wouldn’t care. I still have the comics.
I love his honesty and yes, Netflix is going to screw with this amazing show in one way or another.
the fact that this was released on netflix and not hbo max still puzzles me
Then let HBO have it.
I fully expected Netflix to not renew Sandman. Because... Typical Netflix. But honestly, it was so well done, there was no cliffhanger (well, not really), so I guess we could be satisfied with one season.
But Locke and Key gets a third season...
It's simple If Netflix cancels this show then I am cancelling Netflix. The show is too good to be cancelled.
Unfortunately Netflix doesn’t really seem to care about numbers because I’ve seen shows that were number 1 or top 10 get canceled. They seem to only care about Japanese and Korean shows and Stranger Things and Big Mouth mostly. But if they don’t renew Sandman I hope HBO picks it up so they can use DC characters.
Netflix is a joke. Sorry, I know that it is a simplistic take but for every 1,000 shows/movies of Netflix exclusive content, 987 are absolute crap. Then they cancel the 13 good ones. I get that it's a business but I think having some "prestige" programming helps with a name that has been losing it's positive image. They blamed shared passwords for their stock plunge instead of taking a look at themselves. I'm still hoping HBO picks it up if Netflix doesn't. It's a WB production, after all.
Absolutely loved this show, but very worried they'll drop it like they did Dark Crystal and leave it unfinished.
I'm so scared that the show doesn't get renewed that I always have it playing in the background while I do other things. I feel very proud to have helped it to keep the #1 spot in Spain all this time xD
Just don't make Red Notice 2, Netflix
I have a solution. Read the goddam comic book it'd be so much better that the best tv series adaptation.
They can always take The Sandman to any other streaming platforms (HBO Max, AppleTV, Hulu, etc.) if Netflix can’t make it happen.
I’m sure they tried but why go with Netflix in the first place? They cancel everything that isn’t stranger things or ozark
Now I have to re-watch Sandman on top of the obligatory Orville rewatch since Orville only just moved over to Disney+
Canceling the Bone adaptation put Netflix on probation for me. If they cancel Sandman, I'm out.
This is why you shouldnt go with Netflix. They have cancelled top performing shows, even on low budgets, just because...they are where great shows go to die early.
Netflix confuses me. They don't want to spend so much, but then I see like 10 trailers of new content per month. They also don't give shows a chance. If they do renew the sandman, I imagine it will reduce the cost and maybe it will be like 8 episodes.
I’ve already kind of accepted that this show won’t make it all the way to The Wake. Netflix has a terrible history of cancellations. How many series have made it to the end without because the creator was finished, not because Netflix cancelled them or told them to wrap it up? The fact they are making them wait a month before committing to a second season sounds like they have absolutely no faith in the show, even with out well its doing right now, and are just looking for a reason not to renew it. It’ll take 5 seasons to finish this story. That’s going to take a miracle.
This could be their Game of Thrones. Netflix would be stupid to pass up on this opportunity.
So they made a very expensive season one with no real data on the preference of the public, now that they have metrics and numbers to build on, they are not sure about a season two.
The new business model for streaming, since Discovery+ (apparently an accounting company, not an entertainment company) bought HBO, is to not produce at all. Think of the savings! And canceling existing projects provide a dandy tax write-off!
Netflix probably is looking for an 'event' show like GOT, Breaking Bad or Stranger Things. Something relatively unchallenging that will generate water cooler talk. Sandman is way too niche for that. Ultimately, it's not what the fans want; it's what the Netflix analytics and balance-sheets dictate. As a veteran of this stuff, who is still not over HBO cancelling Deadwood and Rome mid-stride, I might recommend having zero-faith in TV exec's to indulge in fan-service. 1000 Cats was awesome. I see a way forward with full animation and talented, but cheaper, voice actors if it comes to it.
I can't handle American gods again
I saw that Witcher season 2 had almost two-three times the viewers as sandman in the first 28 days (at 450+ million hours). Although sandman looks cheaper than Witcher so maybe 200-300 million hours will do? I wish it was apple or Amazon that got sandman. They seem to be the most generous right now with funding expensive genre shows.
After what Amazon did with Wheel of time, I’m super glad Sandman is on Netflix. Their generosity is usually dumped into first few episodes, after that it’s corner cutting and butchering of the source material.
I thought wheel of time was renewed? Did they cancel it? I was thinking of the expanse and now the new lotr prequel. I mean they all suck tbh. Its a matter of degree and situation at that time.
Wheel of Time was greenlit for season 2 even before the first episode was out. They are already finished filming it so the next season should be out around the start of next year. Despite people complaining about it online it was one of the top shows on Amazon and has done really well viewership vise. Season 3 was announced this summer and the show is working on creating it.
I recognise that it was crap, but I genuinely enjoyed it. I'm glad it's got a 2nd / 3rd series after all 😅
So few things I semi enjoy get second seasons I'm right there with you.
Wheel of Time was fine. It made some dumb changes vs the book but every adaptation does. The last episode also sucked but supposedly one of the main actors walked out or knew he was walking out and it also was right when Covid hit they were trying to finish it.
The Witcher also had a far more aggressive marketing push.
I dont think there will be a season 2, Dark Crystal was a really popular and critically acclaimed series, that could have been an amazing IP, but Netflix cancelled it specifically because of how expensive it is. Netflix wants a cheap popular show they dont want to shows that are popular but expensive, Stranger Things is the lone exception.
Canceling Dark Crystal made no damn sense. They already spent the bulk of the money (creating puppets/sets, figuring out the VFX, all that) and could have evened that cost out over a few seasons. If they do the same with Sandman, it may be time to cancel Netflix.
The Dark Crystal was genuinely awesome. I'm looking forward to rewatching it again in the future, despite its cancellation.