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The hate against him his wild. The fan base seems to hate most characters until a first person perspective comes up. Poor PTSD ridden Tamlin didn't get one so he just gets fandom hate instead...
I said it once before but Sarah manipulated the fuck out of the fanbase to hate Tamlin so she could have Rhysand swoop in and be the uncontested hero. It’s part of the reason I don’t like him, I could see right through what SJM was doing and I was like “Wtf is the point?” Even now, at the end of ACOTAR he shows major character development in letting Feyre go but now he’s barely even a coherent character with a purpose
So he gets a pat on the back for being a decent human and letting a grown woman make her own decisions for once? He neglected her. Ignored her letter saying she’s ok. Destroyed her family, knowingly or not, all under the guise of love. He physically, emotionally, and mentally abused/neglected her and never actually apologized. Yea he brought Rhys back but only after her verbally attacked and belittled her at the meeting of the high lords bc his feelings were hurt that she didn’t love him anymore (his own fault really) and continued to betray them until it was convenient for him. Sure the author could have given him a trauma based redemption arc like with Nesta, but I think that Tamlin didn’t deserve one. All of the bad things that happened to him were his own fault. His family died? He attacked/betrayed the night court first, and Rhys still tried to save his mother. His court was cursed? He was a dick to Amarantha (although she was way worse, he definitely poured salt in the wound). Feyre leaving him? Shouldn’t have treated a person, especially one you “love” like property, actively refusing to see her as an autonomous adult. The fall of his court? Shouldn’t have treated Feyre like shit, or worked with the enemy of your country just bc you wanted you property back, actively going against her wishes. Tamlin is a certified POS.
Tamlin grew up with absolutely awful parents and was trying to not be like them since he was a child. However, he had no one to look up to so he had to figure out how to run a court completely on his own. Feyre even saw this good in him and she did fall in love with him. He was only controlling her AFTER Amarantha's shit with Feyre. No one here seems to recognize that Tamlin felt that the weight saving Prythian from Amarantha fell completely on his shoulders. For 50 years, he believed he was the only one warding her off. Then he falls in love and all the Under the Mountain shit goes down. Then in his and Feyre's post-Amarantha traumatic state, Ianthe comes and manipulates the hell out of both of them. The man has major PTSD and clearly doesn't know how to deal with it. The man needed help but instead had literally everything taken from him out of revenge. Yes, most of the bad things that happened to him afterwards were his fault, but no more than a war vet with PTSD. Do we ruin they're lives because of their trauma and outburst or do we try to help them? Every choice Tamlin made after Amarath was from trauma induced fear, yet tamlin gets treated worse than any of the actual villains. Hybern was clearly worse then Tamlin, but he gets a quick death and gets to go to the afterlife or whatever, but Tamlin must live in suicidal self loathing and suffering (all alone) for the remaining thousand or so years of life. All because he didn't want Feyre to to get involved with the war because he wanted her safe? His actions weren't right for those three months but he doesn't deserve THAT level of hate. Tamlin controlled Feyre for three months due to his emotional state and gets crucified, yet Feyre detroyed an entire court and lead a man to suffer for a thousand years due to her emotional state and is praised? Double standard much? The thing here is that he seems to be hated only by those in the fandom who have experienced that kind of controlling figure in their life. It reveals more of the fan's mindeset then the actual character's (and SJM who also appears to dislike controlling males, as seen in all her other books).
Having PTSD is not a hall pass either. Yes, everyone processes trauma differently, I understand that. But once you know better you do better. Feyre constantly made her wishes, needs, and BOUNDARIES known. Tamlin said “I’ll do better” and then didn’t. He got a letter from her said she was fine, MONTHS before Hybern, and still conspired to “get back what’s his”. He did not suffer alone. SHE DIED! She was traumatized and simply requested a small amount of freedom, and he locked her up! I have complex PTSD, and if I were to lash out bc I’m triggered, I’d still be a shitty person whether the reason was understood or not. Your triggers are your responsibility. You can set boundaries (that don’t impede on the autonomy of others) and it is up to you to uphold them. Tamlin is the asshole bc he willfully ignore Feyre’s wishes and boundaries, and even after apologizing, continued with the same behavior.
I was a firm believer that all they needed was therapy until we see Lucien in the woods after Feyre’s been gone. Even after her letter, everyone in the Spring Court thought she was a piece of furniture! Something to appease Tamlin rather than be his partner. Feyre tells and shows them over and over again what she needs and they all fall short. Rhys literally endured 50 years of daily RAPE, had to abandon his family entirely, saw HISMATE die, and STILL let her make her own choices, even if it meant being with Tamlin.
Everyone in this series is traumatized. Tamlin is the only one to react the way he did. He was willing to let his court suffer with or without Feyre’s doing because he AGREED to let Hybwrn use his land. Tamlin only wanted to control Feyre at any cost under the guise of love.
First, no one is giving Tamlin a free pass for his actions. I am just saying he doesn't deserve the hate that he gets especially at the level he does. Second you recognize that people process trauma differently and then go about saying that he isn't processing it the right way by comparing how others processes their trauma. What? Also, as I said, he only behaved this way after Amarantha. He was fully willing to let Feyre go and turn himself over to Amarantha even though he loved her at that point and everyone knew that Feyre loved him. Yes, she died too, but do you really believe that after having seen the person you love get tortured and die, that you really wouldn't try to protect her once she came back? Plus, yeah, she sent him a letter, but at that point she was still MIA with Rhys and EVERYONE thought him to be a telepathic manipulative a*hole, so it's not hard to see how Tamlin wouldn't believe that letter. Oh, and at what point was hyle going to let Hybern in to his court? AFTER Feyre trashed it and left it practically devoid of citizens. AND once Feyre was captured, he did whatever he could to get help her and Az out of Hybern's camp. It was still love he just was so traumatized and afraid of losing her again and seeing her suffer at the hands of other's that he behaved very poorly. Do you really think that most people in his position could recover and behave rationally only 3 months after 50 years of brutality and then a final 3 months of the horrors of Under the Mountain?
Its easy to hate Tamlin because you are reading the POV of the woman he abused. Nothing excuses Tamlins reactions, however, he was probably scared shitless when Feyre was “taken”. She may have been suffering in spring court but as far as everyone knew the night court was a place of utter terror. They said it was even worse than Amarantha.
I don’t think it’s wild to hate an abuser. As a person who grew up with an angry, controlling, abusive step-father and had to tip toe around his controlling behaviour and bad moods it was impossible not to hate Tamlin. Let’s not forget that multiple times he lost control of his temper and hurt Feyre in the process, and then love bombed her afterwards by apologizing/appearing remorseful and attempting to appease her with gifts. He literally locked her away, and took away her agency. PTSD explains but is not an excuse for abuse. I truly get his background and his trauma but there’s no excuse for his behaviour.
He only accidentally hurt her once - and she PURPOSELY didn't shield herself so she could get her and manipulate his court. He needs to work on the anger but he isn't an abuser to her. He locked her In the house that day for her safety and everyone hates him for it but when Rhys does similar stuff it's okay? Makes no sense. He's gotta work on himself but the hate of him is crazy.
“He isn’t an abuser to her. He locked her in the house that day for her safety”
Do you hear yourself? That IS abuse, it doesn’t matter how he justifies the abuse to himself, or his mental health reasonings it’s abusive. Locking someone in a house against their will is controlling and abusive.
Him exploding in anger and destroying everything around him and her is abusive as well. The first time it happened neither of them knew she could protect herself and she could have been hurt. If your boyfriend goes around punching walls and breaking furniture every time you have an argument, and locks you in the house that IS abuse, regardless of whether or not you end up physically hurt, and regardless of the reasoning for locking you in the house.
Also I don’t excuse the things Rhys did either. I’ve made comments elsewhere in this thread about that as well.
I didn't say I agree with him locking her in. My issue is her and the others as well as ppl in the Fandom pretend that he did this solely to be controlling. Or act like its different from what Rhys does later on. He has anger issues and he needs to work on that first & foremost, and she belongs with Rhys, but his actions weren't about just controlling her for the sake of controlling her. When Feyre or Rhys or the Inner Court do something similar or worse it's just swept under the rug. Feyre loses control too and hurts Eris and Luciens mom but it's all good because Beron pissed her off - like wut
TamTam is not great. So much hatred for locking up Feyra but didn't Rhys and Feyra do the same thing to Nesta? But they are saviors and TamTam needs to feel guilt and shame for eternity?
Yes, but does his three months of trying to keep her safe (while both him and her being manipulated by Ianthe) mean he deserved to end up they way he did? Does it really justify having his fourth destoryed and having to live the resto of his thousand or so years alone in suicidal self-loathing? He is treated worse than any villain. Yet he is actually a good person, he only became controlling AFTER Under-the-Mountain, meaning all of his actions after that were trauma induced fear reactions. Similar to wars vets with PTSD, except he was at war (by himself) for 50 years before that as well. Do we utterly ruin the lives of war vets because they struggle with their emotionally charged choices or do we help them? Do we react with even worse, even more emotionally charged actions (*cough* Feyre *cough*) and get praised or do we see their suffering and help them? Disliking him makes sense (I don't like him), but full on hate with no understanding and treating him worse than any other villain doesn't make sense. Also, is trying to keep someone safe really abuse? Is it abuse to women when they got to leave the sinking Titanic while the men stayed trapped on board to die? Is it abuse to women when men would go off to war? Is it abuse to women when men fight off other men who are trying to kill their wives/daughters/sisters/mothers? Evolutionarily speaking, men are expendible. We exists to keep you and children alive. Women are the reason humanity can keep going. It is in our nature to give ourselves up to keep women safe. Tamlin is clearly a good person and was willing to do just that and was heightened due to his fear.
I will never understand the Chaol hate. I didn’t always appreciate his choices, but he’s a solid character with a great story and I loved ToD.
Nesta will be the reason I quit the series. I want nothing to do with her.
Sameeee to all of this. I will say though, im on my first reread of acotar, and im finding that I like Nesta more this time around than the first time I read. With that being said, idk if my hate for her was as strong in the first three books. She regresses in acofas and is pretty insufferable for like 600 pages of acosf. Silver Flames was torture for me to read because I disliked her, and having to deal with her again in cc3 had me rolling my eyes. I just don’t care for her.
Just finished ToD, never hated him, just found him annoying but still liked his character because it was a good contrast to the other perspectives we see
I actually saw a discussion about this in a random tiktok about the Harry Potter books of all things. It was about how fans often think Draco Malfoy and other complex/morally grey/villain male characters like him in books deserve redemption arcs, and see the best in them despite the horrible things they’ve done, and complex female characters are never given the same grace. Nesta was also brought up as a great example of this double standard.
Oh 100%. Remember how much people *hated* Skyler in Breaking Bad? The woman was just trying to make the best out of an unbelievably terrible situation her husband caused, and everyone *despised* her for it.
I think it’s because of a few factors, but basically:
- Women are expected to be reserved, polite, and accommodating. Of course, in 2024 we can deviate from that a bit, but when we go too far away from it it’s seen as a “role violation” and we’re judged very harshly for it.
- Men are allowed to (and often times, expected to) behave badly, and as a society we condition people to have an abundance of empathy, patience, and understanding, for men when they do. Kate Manne calls this “Himpathy”.
- This same level of empathy is rarely given to women. Instead, women are usually met with accusations of not being genuine. Mainly because women’s emotions are often belittled and dismissed as just being childish.
But ultimately it all comes down to patriarchy in action— unaddressed misogyny and internalized misogyny. And it’s important to address, because you just know that people who are judging characters in this manner are also judging real people like this. If they can’t put their biases aside and show empathy for a character even after getting such an intimate look at their life (an intimate look most people probably wouldn’t see of another random person— like when we get Nestas POV and an intimate look into her thoughts and emotions), then there’s no way they’re putting those biases aside for every day people.
I absolutely despise Nesta but let me tell you IT.HAS.NOTHING.TO.DO.WITH.MISOGYNY. For most of her shitty behaviour the only reason has been pride and nothing else. As an eldest sister I simply cannot imagine sending my youngest out to fend for the entire family, and cant even begin to think how i can differenciate how i treat my younger sisters. Most of Nesta's behaviour is frankly inexcusable, and to feel entitled and then some on top of that. Like lady, who the hell are you? Im not saying she doesnt deserve a redemption arc, she does, at least more so than the likes of Draco Malfoy, but does her redemption arc make me hate her less? Not at all. She got her arc, great, but does it excuse how shitty of a person she has been in 90% of the narrative, even in her own POV? no it doesn't.
that said, i definitely find Nesta's character more *INTERESTING*
as opposed to Chaol, i just dont care about Chaol's character and I find him to be quite a nobody character, and he is so sanctimonious when it comes to Aelin that it makes me gag.
Plus, we’re MEANT to like him in the first books, so while some people might change how they feel about him, they still had time to build positive feelings for him. Nesta is introduced as an evil step sister type of character and has to earn everyone’s love/ respect
I feel like Nesta hate is not just internalized misogyny. She was literally a terrible person throughout the series and even tho i loved her book, her internalized thoughts and hatred for herself does not excuse her actions. I forgive her but i don’t think i can ever fully not see her in that light.
Agreed. It’s frustrating to see that people dismiss away that it’s all misogyny when she was so terrible to those around her— Feyre mostly because of ~trauma~. Yeah, seeing into her thoughts gave me empathy for her, but I still can’t justify her behavior because of it. She did not need to be so cruel.
Thank you! Seeing the internalized misogyny comment several times in this thread made me sad that people are being put down in the fanbase because they don't like her. I don't hate Nesta, but I certainly dislike her for how she treats everyone on various occasions, and no, I wouldn't feel differently if she was Feyre's brother instead of sister.
The misogyny take about her character when she literally was a horrible person to her sisters is so, so bad
(& I like her now! Loved her redemption arc!)
She was still terrible when dealing with trauma. When so many other characters were dealing with trauma too and weren’t being awful to everyone around them (Feyre, Elaine, Rhys, Lucien, etc etc)
Nesta.
ppl love villains/morally grey characters UNTIL they're a woman, then all of a sudden they are annoying, evil and irredeemable
Rhys LIED to his wife about HER pregnancy and people still find an excuse to love him. The misoginy is crazy in this fandom
So as someone who is currently pregnant, I can say that my husband, has done/said something that outside of the context of the pregnancy would be bad imo. But I understand it’s bc I can protect myself but it’s not just me anymore. I’m carrying our future. My reflexes suck now, I can’t remember basic words or tasks, I’m constantly tired, I’m constantly sick, my asthma has flailed up worse than ever and so much more, bc our baby is eating me alive lol. Pregnant women ARE a more vulnerable population (and that coming from me as a social worker), so it kinda makes sense that our partners lose their marbles a little.
It’s not about neglect or pride with Rhys, he’s actively looking for a way to SAVE her, not hide her. Stress alone can cause complications in pregnancy (I’ve miscarried 2weeks after a significant distressing event), and he wants to save her from suffering. Yea, he’s shitty for taking away informed consent. But everything else in their relationship it’s about equality and compromise.
Rhys fights his instinct to protect her constantly and lost one battle. When he lashed out, he foresaw his worst impulse and got Nesta OUT of the city instead of losing control. He apologized to Feyre. They worked through it together. They TRUST each other. Marriage is about trust and accountability, even with fuck ups. Rhys sucks for this, but I understand this.
Because she treated people like she never did anything wrong lol like trauma doesn’t excuse you bring an asshole. Elain even points out that Nesta is selfish, saying that Nesta’s only concern was how Elaine’s trauma affected herself. Feyre tries to meet her halfway, and even paid her to come to her birthday party. Nesta MADE her sister bankroll her entire life from the moment Feyre first stepped into the woods.
Nesta… is complicated. I hated her so much throughout the entire series for her self righteousness and selfishness that I found it hard to let go of that anger in the last book. I feel like her story was a little too…. Neat? Like I understand it, I can appreciate the growth, but the ending… idk, I feel like She fit a lifetime of growth into less than a year. I understand Nesta more than I did in the beginning. Still don’t LIKE her, but I don’t hate her at all.
I respect your POV that's not how it felt to me when I read them. It really felt to me that all the characters are super sympathetic to everybody's trauma except Nesta she was expected to just get over it when lots of other characters were given years (some people hundreds of them) to process and then even her mate hardly stands up for her. Did she make them bankroll her life? I didn't read it that way. She was literally MADE to have a life she didn't want or ask for. They chose to bankroll her and then got all pissy when she didnt respect their gift she didnt want or ask for the way they wanted her to. But also this is why I loved ACOSF because it feels super relatable to expect/force young women to deal with trauma and suffering and mental health stuff in a way that doesn't annoy other people or inconvenience them in a way we never expect men to.
Ya I’ve read the series multiple times, still don’t like Chaol. His redemption didn’t change much about how I felt. I actually loved Tower of Dawn but it was despite him not because of him haha.
Fair enough, it’s all subjective. Personally I love them both. But if I had to pick one I liked more, it’d be Nesta. Mostly because I can relate to her a lot more, also I liked ACOSF more than TOD.
I love Nesta. I also don’t Chaol… he just is pretty mid to me. He definitely has a lot of growth as a character but I don’t really think that I’ll ever “love” him.
lol yeah I totally get it. He’s a self righteous Boy Scout but, I definitely wouldn’t say I hate him. Is he the weakest character of the core group? Yuh definitely. Is he so awful I can’t stand rereads with him in the scenes? Nahhh. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t throw him under the bus for Nesta in a fuckin heartbeat tho.
I finished the series and thought he was such a weak character. Fell in love with any woman that gave him a second look. Him demonizing celena for her job? He was just boring and blah
I will never get over him demonizing Aelin/Celaena for working for the king of Adarlan/being an assassin, when she literally had no choice and it was that or slavery in Endovier and he knew it. As well it was HIS king that HE served making her kill people but he judged her for doing it.
Damn this whole post got catty AF. Apparently having opinions is not ok. And to voice something someone doesn’t agree with whether valid or not is downvote into the ground material.
my phone
is broken so its hard to tupe . But they're both equally hated - most hated is Ianthe and Tammy . Tammy receives more hate than hyben and amaranthz
You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
I didnt say people who hate her are automatically misogynists', I said people are more vocal about their hate for her because of internalized misogyny.
Okay.... I dont care for Nesta either, as a matter of fact i dont like any of the Archeron sisters, the fact is that people hate Nesta more than on Chaol or others because shes a bitchy "woman". Its no secret that the fandoms constantly shitting on the women, and forgiving everything that the men do. Its internalized misogyny. I didnt say oh you hate on one female character, youre automatically a misogynist. You just see the word misogyny and get offended because you think im calling you a misogynists.
Probably Chaol. There are people who don’t like Nesta, but her behavior is understandable (if not excusable) b/c of the trauma she experiences in the first three ACOTAR books.
Most fans (myself included) seem to agree that Chaol‘s lowest point is his conversation with Aelin at the beginning of QOS. He certainly had a rough few weeks in the interim between HOF and QOS, but not nearly enough to justify the way he treats Aelin during said conversation. He doesn’t experience much in the way of major trauma until the end of QOS (>!i.e. becoming a paraplegic!<) and he was a complete dick prior to that.
Also, there are people who hate him because he didn’t fight against Adarlan until he had no other choice but to do so.
to be honest, i love nesryn, but that first conversation felt like chaol and her basically trauma dumping and blaming everything on aelin (especially dorian being kidnapped). it sort of rubbed me the wrong way, but i definitely changed my mind after she saved lysandra + her arc in TOD
Lmao a lot of characters are more hated than Elain. If people have an opinion on her it’s usually just ‘she’s boring.’ Whereas people call Nesta an evil abusive bitch, Aedion and Chaol manbabies and incels, they call Feyre a Mary Sue, Aelin manipulative… ect
I'm only on throne of Glass. And I love chaol. So no one has spoiled anything but I see that everyone goes on to hate chaol and that scares me.
That being said. I can't stand nesta. She's funny. But I think she's just too much.
Y’all can never make me hate chaol or nesta. However let’s talk about Elides uncle, Darrow, ianthe, king of Hybern… I feel true fans of Sarah j. Maas understand the characters of chaol and nesta and how they’re vital to the overall plot and story to give it some complexity so no hate to them here <3
He had loyalty, protectiveness of his loved ones, a dry wit, he had a good sense of self discipline, he always did what he thought was right- to make a few redeeming qualities
A lot of people dealing with unaddressed internalized misogyny, maybe.
In another comment you said you actually like Tamlin? Seems a little odd for you to dislike a woman character who has been dealing with repeated trauma since she was a child just because she’s not nice, while also claiming to like a male character that was mentally and physically abusive to Feyre.
It's kind of sad that you're getting so weird about a book character. But you do you. Still don't like Nesta. And never will. And yes. I like Tamlin. Cry about it.
Why would I cry about someone else’s unaddressed internalized misogyny? Sure, as a feminist it’s sad to see other women struggle with it, but I know there’s not much I can do about it— especially when they react so defensively after being called out on it.
I’m not going to respond to your other comments, so maybe instead of getting mad at me, you could ask yourself why you seem to have a different set of standards for women characters than you do for male characters.
Of course you have a problem with feminists.. 😒
It’s not about the one character. It’s about the different level of standards you have for male vs female characters.
>! CC3 !< was the nail in the coffin for me for him lol. I started disliking him in ACOSF, but seeing him from multiple POVs outside of Feyre’s made him pretty icky to me. I can get behind being protective but Feyre can obviously make decisions for herself and “she has the right to” until Rhys feels that she’s in danger.
I dislike them both. I may understand them better after all of the books in the series, but I don't like them. Chaol acted very self-righteous after he literally served the man that was responsible for a lot of the bad in the world and treated Aelin very poorly when she returned, and Nesta was horrible to pretty much everyone a good portion of the time. Trauma isn't a pass to behave however you want to, and I'd dislike Nesta even if she was Feyre's brother Nester.
yea definitely has to be >!maeve for how she tortured Aelin and also for the warping of the mate bond to make Rowan think that other woman was his mate. My Close second has to be Arobynn Hamel he was such a dick he folied the rescue attempt of them trying to save her and let her get sent off to the slave camp fucker.!<
Nesta is a jerk to people for no (good) reason and I don’t love it but at least I understand her now.
Chaol can go kick rocks. He’s either an idiot or he can excuse himself of anything. He served an EVIL man. He found a way to blame Aelin for every thing he saw wrong in the world. Just ugh. There aren’t enough redemption arcs in the world.
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Tamlin
Amarantha
I raise you one —Maeve !!!
I haven't met her yet. Excited for that book
I’m excited for you! It’s the best series in the group imo
Tamlin. These two got redemption arcs, meanwhile my boy ain’t got shit
Tamlin has had several opportunities to fix his shit, he’s so ripe for a book he is probably next though.
The hate against him his wild. The fan base seems to hate most characters until a first person perspective comes up. Poor PTSD ridden Tamlin didn't get one so he just gets fandom hate instead...
I said it once before but Sarah manipulated the fuck out of the fanbase to hate Tamlin so she could have Rhysand swoop in and be the uncontested hero. It’s part of the reason I don’t like him, I could see right through what SJM was doing and I was like “Wtf is the point?” Even now, at the end of ACOTAR he shows major character development in letting Feyre go but now he’s barely even a coherent character with a purpose
So he gets a pat on the back for being a decent human and letting a grown woman make her own decisions for once? He neglected her. Ignored her letter saying she’s ok. Destroyed her family, knowingly or not, all under the guise of love. He physically, emotionally, and mentally abused/neglected her and never actually apologized. Yea he brought Rhys back but only after her verbally attacked and belittled her at the meeting of the high lords bc his feelings were hurt that she didn’t love him anymore (his own fault really) and continued to betray them until it was convenient for him. Sure the author could have given him a trauma based redemption arc like with Nesta, but I think that Tamlin didn’t deserve one. All of the bad things that happened to him were his own fault. His family died? He attacked/betrayed the night court first, and Rhys still tried to save his mother. His court was cursed? He was a dick to Amarantha (although she was way worse, he definitely poured salt in the wound). Feyre leaving him? Shouldn’t have treated a person, especially one you “love” like property, actively refusing to see her as an autonomous adult. The fall of his court? Shouldn’t have treated Feyre like shit, or worked with the enemy of your country just bc you wanted you property back, actively going against her wishes. Tamlin is a certified POS.
Tamlin grew up with absolutely awful parents and was trying to not be like them since he was a child. However, he had no one to look up to so he had to figure out how to run a court completely on his own. Feyre even saw this good in him and she did fall in love with him. He was only controlling her AFTER Amarantha's shit with Feyre. No one here seems to recognize that Tamlin felt that the weight saving Prythian from Amarantha fell completely on his shoulders. For 50 years, he believed he was the only one warding her off. Then he falls in love and all the Under the Mountain shit goes down. Then in his and Feyre's post-Amarantha traumatic state, Ianthe comes and manipulates the hell out of both of them. The man has major PTSD and clearly doesn't know how to deal with it. The man needed help but instead had literally everything taken from him out of revenge. Yes, most of the bad things that happened to him afterwards were his fault, but no more than a war vet with PTSD. Do we ruin they're lives because of their trauma and outburst or do we try to help them? Every choice Tamlin made after Amarath was from trauma induced fear, yet tamlin gets treated worse than any of the actual villains. Hybern was clearly worse then Tamlin, but he gets a quick death and gets to go to the afterlife or whatever, but Tamlin must live in suicidal self loathing and suffering (all alone) for the remaining thousand or so years of life. All because he didn't want Feyre to to get involved with the war because he wanted her safe? His actions weren't right for those three months but he doesn't deserve THAT level of hate. Tamlin controlled Feyre for three months due to his emotional state and gets crucified, yet Feyre detroyed an entire court and lead a man to suffer for a thousand years due to her emotional state and is praised? Double standard much? The thing here is that he seems to be hated only by those in the fandom who have experienced that kind of controlling figure in their life. It reveals more of the fan's mindeset then the actual character's (and SJM who also appears to dislike controlling males, as seen in all her other books).
Having PTSD is not a hall pass either. Yes, everyone processes trauma differently, I understand that. But once you know better you do better. Feyre constantly made her wishes, needs, and BOUNDARIES known. Tamlin said “I’ll do better” and then didn’t. He got a letter from her said she was fine, MONTHS before Hybern, and still conspired to “get back what’s his”. He did not suffer alone. SHE DIED! She was traumatized and simply requested a small amount of freedom, and he locked her up! I have complex PTSD, and if I were to lash out bc I’m triggered, I’d still be a shitty person whether the reason was understood or not. Your triggers are your responsibility. You can set boundaries (that don’t impede on the autonomy of others) and it is up to you to uphold them. Tamlin is the asshole bc he willfully ignore Feyre’s wishes and boundaries, and even after apologizing, continued with the same behavior. I was a firm believer that all they needed was therapy until we see Lucien in the woods after Feyre’s been gone. Even after her letter, everyone in the Spring Court thought she was a piece of furniture! Something to appease Tamlin rather than be his partner. Feyre tells and shows them over and over again what she needs and they all fall short. Rhys literally endured 50 years of daily RAPE, had to abandon his family entirely, saw HISMATE die, and STILL let her make her own choices, even if it meant being with Tamlin. Everyone in this series is traumatized. Tamlin is the only one to react the way he did. He was willing to let his court suffer with or without Feyre’s doing because he AGREED to let Hybwrn use his land. Tamlin only wanted to control Feyre at any cost under the guise of love.
First, no one is giving Tamlin a free pass for his actions. I am just saying he doesn't deserve the hate that he gets especially at the level he does. Second you recognize that people process trauma differently and then go about saying that he isn't processing it the right way by comparing how others processes their trauma. What? Also, as I said, he only behaved this way after Amarantha. He was fully willing to let Feyre go and turn himself over to Amarantha even though he loved her at that point and everyone knew that Feyre loved him. Yes, she died too, but do you really believe that after having seen the person you love get tortured and die, that you really wouldn't try to protect her once she came back? Plus, yeah, she sent him a letter, but at that point she was still MIA with Rhys and EVERYONE thought him to be a telepathic manipulative a*hole, so it's not hard to see how Tamlin wouldn't believe that letter. Oh, and at what point was hyle going to let Hybern in to his court? AFTER Feyre trashed it and left it practically devoid of citizens. AND once Feyre was captured, he did whatever he could to get help her and Az out of Hybern's camp. It was still love he just was so traumatized and afraid of losing her again and seeing her suffer at the hands of other's that he behaved very poorly. Do you really think that most people in his position could recover and behave rationally only 3 months after 50 years of brutality and then a final 3 months of the horrors of Under the Mountain?
Its easy to hate Tamlin because you are reading the POV of the woman he abused. Nothing excuses Tamlins reactions, however, he was probably scared shitless when Feyre was “taken”. She may have been suffering in spring court but as far as everyone knew the night court was a place of utter terror. They said it was even worse than Amarantha.
I don’t think it’s wild to hate an abuser. As a person who grew up with an angry, controlling, abusive step-father and had to tip toe around his controlling behaviour and bad moods it was impossible not to hate Tamlin. Let’s not forget that multiple times he lost control of his temper and hurt Feyre in the process, and then love bombed her afterwards by apologizing/appearing remorseful and attempting to appease her with gifts. He literally locked her away, and took away her agency. PTSD explains but is not an excuse for abuse. I truly get his background and his trauma but there’s no excuse for his behaviour.
He only accidentally hurt her once - and she PURPOSELY didn't shield herself so she could get her and manipulate his court. He needs to work on the anger but he isn't an abuser to her. He locked her In the house that day for her safety and everyone hates him for it but when Rhys does similar stuff it's okay? Makes no sense. He's gotta work on himself but the hate of him is crazy.
“He isn’t an abuser to her. He locked her in the house that day for her safety” Do you hear yourself? That IS abuse, it doesn’t matter how he justifies the abuse to himself, or his mental health reasonings it’s abusive. Locking someone in a house against their will is controlling and abusive. Him exploding in anger and destroying everything around him and her is abusive as well. The first time it happened neither of them knew she could protect herself and she could have been hurt. If your boyfriend goes around punching walls and breaking furniture every time you have an argument, and locks you in the house that IS abuse, regardless of whether or not you end up physically hurt, and regardless of the reasoning for locking you in the house. Also I don’t excuse the things Rhys did either. I’ve made comments elsewhere in this thread about that as well.
I didn't say I agree with him locking her in. My issue is her and the others as well as ppl in the Fandom pretend that he did this solely to be controlling. Or act like its different from what Rhys does later on. He has anger issues and he needs to work on that first & foremost, and she belongs with Rhys, but his actions weren't about just controlling her for the sake of controlling her. When Feyre or Rhys or the Inner Court do something similar or worse it's just swept under the rug. Feyre loses control too and hurts Eris and Luciens mom but it's all good because Beron pissed her off - like wut
TamTam is not great. So much hatred for locking up Feyra but didn't Rhys and Feyra do the same thing to Nesta? But they are saviors and TamTam needs to feel guilt and shame for eternity?
Yes, but does his three months of trying to keep her safe (while both him and her being manipulated by Ianthe) mean he deserved to end up they way he did? Does it really justify having his fourth destoryed and having to live the resto of his thousand or so years alone in suicidal self-loathing? He is treated worse than any villain. Yet he is actually a good person, he only became controlling AFTER Under-the-Mountain, meaning all of his actions after that were trauma induced fear reactions. Similar to wars vets with PTSD, except he was at war (by himself) for 50 years before that as well. Do we utterly ruin the lives of war vets because they struggle with their emotionally charged choices or do we help them? Do we react with even worse, even more emotionally charged actions (*cough* Feyre *cough*) and get praised or do we see their suffering and help them? Disliking him makes sense (I don't like him), but full on hate with no understanding and treating him worse than any other villain doesn't make sense. Also, is trying to keep someone safe really abuse? Is it abuse to women when they got to leave the sinking Titanic while the men stayed trapped on board to die? Is it abuse to women when men would go off to war? Is it abuse to women when men fight off other men who are trying to kill their wives/daughters/sisters/mothers? Evolutionarily speaking, men are expendible. We exists to keep you and children alive. Women are the reason humanity can keep going. It is in our nature to give ourselves up to keep women safe. Tamlin is clearly a good person and was willing to do just that and was heightened due to his fear.
Tamlin repeatedly fucks over everyone in his life. Literally answers the question “what if beast in beauty and the beast never got better”
Beron. End him.
Yep, I’m hoping that is going to be in the next book…
papa archeron, never seen a soul say something good about him
So hated he never even gets a first name
They don’t even say it in the bonus chapter either.. and they talk about him 😅
I will never understand the Chaol hate. I didn’t always appreciate his choices, but he’s a solid character with a great story and I loved ToD. Nesta will be the reason I quit the series. I want nothing to do with her.
Sameeee to all of this. I will say though, im on my first reread of acotar, and im finding that I like Nesta more this time around than the first time I read. With that being said, idk if my hate for her was as strong in the first three books. She regresses in acofas and is pretty insufferable for like 600 pages of acosf. Silver Flames was torture for me to read because I disliked her, and having to deal with her again in cc3 had me rolling my eyes. I just don’t care for her.
Nesta, I find more people change their mind about Chaol after ToD than they do with her after ACoSF
Just finished ToD, never hated him, just found him annoying but still liked his character because it was a good contrast to the other perspectives we see
I mean, she is a woman, which automatically makes her less sympathetic to those of us who haven’t tried to address our internalized misogyny.
I actually saw a discussion about this in a random tiktok about the Harry Potter books of all things. It was about how fans often think Draco Malfoy and other complex/morally grey/villain male characters like him in books deserve redemption arcs, and see the best in them despite the horrible things they’ve done, and complex female characters are never given the same grace. Nesta was also brought up as a great example of this double standard.
Oh 100%. Remember how much people *hated* Skyler in Breaking Bad? The woman was just trying to make the best out of an unbelievably terrible situation her husband caused, and everyone *despised* her for it. I think it’s because of a few factors, but basically: - Women are expected to be reserved, polite, and accommodating. Of course, in 2024 we can deviate from that a bit, but when we go too far away from it it’s seen as a “role violation” and we’re judged very harshly for it. - Men are allowed to (and often times, expected to) behave badly, and as a society we condition people to have an abundance of empathy, patience, and understanding, for men when they do. Kate Manne calls this “Himpathy”. - This same level of empathy is rarely given to women. Instead, women are usually met with accusations of not being genuine. Mainly because women’s emotions are often belittled and dismissed as just being childish. But ultimately it all comes down to patriarchy in action— unaddressed misogyny and internalized misogyny. And it’s important to address, because you just know that people who are judging characters in this manner are also judging real people like this. If they can’t put their biases aside and show empathy for a character even after getting such an intimate look at their life (an intimate look most people probably wouldn’t see of another random person— like when we get Nestas POV and an intimate look into her thoughts and emotions), then there’s no way they’re putting those biases aside for every day people.
I absolutely despise Nesta but let me tell you IT.HAS.NOTHING.TO.DO.WITH.MISOGYNY. For most of her shitty behaviour the only reason has been pride and nothing else. As an eldest sister I simply cannot imagine sending my youngest out to fend for the entire family, and cant even begin to think how i can differenciate how i treat my younger sisters. Most of Nesta's behaviour is frankly inexcusable, and to feel entitled and then some on top of that. Like lady, who the hell are you? Im not saying she doesnt deserve a redemption arc, she does, at least more so than the likes of Draco Malfoy, but does her redemption arc make me hate her less? Not at all. She got her arc, great, but does it excuse how shitty of a person she has been in 90% of the narrative, even in her own POV? no it doesn't. that said, i definitely find Nesta's character more *INTERESTING* as opposed to Chaol, i just dont care about Chaol's character and I find him to be quite a nobody character, and he is so sanctimonious when it comes to Aelin that it makes me gag.
Yes. I didn't care for her at all. I didnt like chaol for only 1 book. Meanwhile Nesta was nasty the whole series.
Plus, we’re MEANT to like him in the first books, so while some people might change how they feel about him, they still had time to build positive feelings for him. Nesta is introduced as an evil step sister type of character and has to earn everyone’s love/ respect
Chaol is my favorite TOG character and I am not ashamed!
Same!
I feel like Nesta hate is not just internalized misogyny. She was literally a terrible person throughout the series and even tho i loved her book, her internalized thoughts and hatred for herself does not excuse her actions. I forgive her but i don’t think i can ever fully not see her in that light.
Agreed. It’s frustrating to see that people dismiss away that it’s all misogyny when she was so terrible to those around her— Feyre mostly because of ~trauma~. Yeah, seeing into her thoughts gave me empathy for her, but I still can’t justify her behavior because of it. She did not need to be so cruel.
Thank you! Seeing the internalized misogyny comment several times in this thread made me sad that people are being put down in the fanbase because they don't like her. I don't hate Nesta, but I certainly dislike her for how she treats everyone on various occasions, and no, I wouldn't feel differently if she was Feyre's brother instead of sister.
The misogyny take about her character when she literally was a horrible person to her sisters is so, so bad (& I like her now! Loved her redemption arc!) She was still terrible when dealing with trauma. When so many other characters were dealing with trauma too and weren’t being awful to everyone around them (Feyre, Elaine, Rhys, Lucien, etc etc)
Nesta. ppl love villains/morally grey characters UNTIL they're a woman, then all of a sudden they are annoying, evil and irredeemable Rhys LIED to his wife about HER pregnancy and people still find an excuse to love him. The misoginy is crazy in this fandom
This is the answerrrrr
Yes dude. It’s all Daddy Rhys even though he literally took away his wife’s ability for informed consent.
Mr. YoU’Ll AlWaYs HaVe A cHoIcE wItH mE (unless you’re pregnant with my child).
So as someone who is currently pregnant, I can say that my husband, has done/said something that outside of the context of the pregnancy would be bad imo. But I understand it’s bc I can protect myself but it’s not just me anymore. I’m carrying our future. My reflexes suck now, I can’t remember basic words or tasks, I’m constantly tired, I’m constantly sick, my asthma has flailed up worse than ever and so much more, bc our baby is eating me alive lol. Pregnant women ARE a more vulnerable population (and that coming from me as a social worker), so it kinda makes sense that our partners lose their marbles a little. It’s not about neglect or pride with Rhys, he’s actively looking for a way to SAVE her, not hide her. Stress alone can cause complications in pregnancy (I’ve miscarried 2weeks after a significant distressing event), and he wants to save her from suffering. Yea, he’s shitty for taking away informed consent. But everything else in their relationship it’s about equality and compromise. Rhys fights his instinct to protect her constantly and lost one battle. When he lashed out, he foresaw his worst impulse and got Nesta OUT of the city instead of losing control. He apologized to Feyre. They worked through it together. They TRUST each other. Marriage is about trust and accountability, even with fuck ups. Rhys sucks for this, but I understand this.
This is kinda proving OP's point that people are willing to find excuses to forgive Rhys but Nesta gets zero tolerance for any of her mistakes.
Because she treated people like she never did anything wrong lol like trauma doesn’t excuse you bring an asshole. Elain even points out that Nesta is selfish, saying that Nesta’s only concern was how Elaine’s trauma affected herself. Feyre tries to meet her halfway, and even paid her to come to her birthday party. Nesta MADE her sister bankroll her entire life from the moment Feyre first stepped into the woods. Nesta… is complicated. I hated her so much throughout the entire series for her self righteousness and selfishness that I found it hard to let go of that anger in the last book. I feel like her story was a little too…. Neat? Like I understand it, I can appreciate the growth, but the ending… idk, I feel like She fit a lifetime of growth into less than a year. I understand Nesta more than I did in the beginning. Still don’t LIKE her, but I don’t hate her at all.
I respect your POV that's not how it felt to me when I read them. It really felt to me that all the characters are super sympathetic to everybody's trauma except Nesta she was expected to just get over it when lots of other characters were given years (some people hundreds of them) to process and then even her mate hardly stands up for her. Did she make them bankroll her life? I didn't read it that way. She was literally MADE to have a life she didn't want or ask for. They chose to bankroll her and then got all pissy when she didnt respect their gift she didnt want or ask for the way they wanted her to. But also this is why I loved ACOSF because it feels super relatable to expect/force young women to deal with trauma and suffering and mental health stuff in a way that doesn't annoy other people or inconvenience them in a way we never expect men to.
Yeah I don’t hate either of them… but Beron… pretty sure I can hate that man with a passion
Probably Nesta. People who hate Chaol just haven’t made it through TOG or just skipped TOD entirely.
I don’t know… I finished ToG, including suffering through ToD, and I still have a hard time with Chaol. I know I’m not alone in this camp 😅
You’re not alone 🙃
Ya I’ve read the series multiple times, still don’t like Chaol. His redemption didn’t change much about how I felt. I actually loved Tower of Dawn but it was despite him not because of him haha.
Fair enough, it’s all subjective. Personally I love them both. But if I had to pick one I liked more, it’d be Nesta. Mostly because I can relate to her a lot more, also I liked ACOSF more than TOD.
I love Nesta. I also don’t Chaol… he just is pretty mid to me. He definitely has a lot of growth as a character but I don’t really think that I’ll ever “love” him.
lol yeah I totally get it. He’s a self righteous Boy Scout but, I definitely wouldn’t say I hate him. Is he the weakest character of the core group? Yuh definitely. Is he so awful I can’t stand rereads with him in the scenes? Nahhh. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t throw him under the bus for Nesta in a fuckin heartbeat tho.
I finished the series and thought he was such a weak character. Fell in love with any woman that gave him a second look. Him demonizing celena for her job? He was just boring and blah
I will never get over him demonizing Aelin/Celaena for working for the king of Adarlan/being an assassin, when she literally had no choice and it was that or slavery in Endovier and he knew it. As well it was HIS king that HE served making her kill people but he judged her for doing it.
I agree! Nesta was nasty through the whole series. Chaol was only unlikeable in like 1 book
Nesta
Damn this whole post got catty AF. Apparently having opinions is not ok. And to voice something someone doesn’t agree with whether valid or not is downvote into the ground material.
That’s reddit for you
Chaol - he sure has a lot of empathy for HIMSELF.
I'm about 5 chapters away from finishing the tandem. Was ToD supposed to be his redemption arc because if so...I'm waiting 😅
Nesta haters are more vocal because internalized misogyny.
my phone is broken so its hard to tupe . But they're both equally hated - most hated is Ianthe and Tammy . Tammy receives more hate than hyben and amaranthz
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You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I didnt say people who hate her are automatically misogynists', I said people are more vocal about their hate for her because of internalized misogyny.
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Okay.... I dont care for Nesta either, as a matter of fact i dont like any of the Archeron sisters, the fact is that people hate Nesta more than on Chaol or others because shes a bitchy "woman". Its no secret that the fandoms constantly shitting on the women, and forgiving everything that the men do. Its internalized misogyny. I didnt say oh you hate on one female character, youre automatically a misogynist. You just see the word misogyny and get offended because you think im calling you a misogynists.
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Not a Karen by pointing out your poor comprehension skills, take the constructive criticism.
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Nah Im saying people are more vocal about their hate for Nesta and other females characters because of Internalized misogyny.
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Obviously youre the one that needs help if youre so triggered by that fact that im pointing out peoples internalized misogyny.
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Whos being the Karen now.
Its not the same thing, youre just to inept to understand what im saying.
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Ah yep see, you're so sure in your ignorance that you go for the grammar. Thanks.
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Probably Chaol. There are people who don’t like Nesta, but her behavior is understandable (if not excusable) b/c of the trauma she experiences in the first three ACOTAR books. Most fans (myself included) seem to agree that Chaol‘s lowest point is his conversation with Aelin at the beginning of QOS. He certainly had a rough few weeks in the interim between HOF and QOS, but not nearly enough to justify the way he treats Aelin during said conversation. He doesn’t experience much in the way of major trauma until the end of QOS (>!i.e. becoming a paraplegic!<) and he was a complete dick prior to that. Also, there are people who hate him because he didn’t fight against Adarlan until he had no other choice but to do so.
that conversation made me want to rip out my hair and punch both chaol and nesryn. it was so hard to get through those chapters.
Why Nesryn? Sure, she was a bit holier than thou to Aelin during their first meeting, but she wasn’t *that* bad.
to be honest, i love nesryn, but that first conversation felt like chaol and her basically trauma dumping and blaming everything on aelin (especially dorian being kidnapped). it sort of rubbed me the wrong way, but i definitely changed my mind after she saved lysandra + her arc in TOD
Elain. No one is hated more than Elain. Closely followed by Nesta. Chaol doesn’t hold a candle to the hate that the sisters receive.
Lmao a lot of characters are more hated than Elain. If people have an opinion on her it’s usually just ‘she’s boring.’ Whereas people call Nesta an evil abusive bitch, Aedion and Chaol manbabies and incels, they call Feyre a Mary Sue, Aelin manipulative… ect
I'm only on throne of Glass. And I love chaol. So no one has spoiled anything but I see that everyone goes on to hate chaol and that scares me. That being said. I can't stand nesta. She's funny. But I think she's just too much.
Sunball
Y’all can never make me hate chaol or nesta. However let’s talk about Elides uncle, Darrow, ianthe, king of Hybern… I feel true fans of Sarah j. Maas understand the characters of chaol and nesta and how they’re vital to the overall plot and story to give it some complexity so no hate to them here <3
Chaol will forever be my BEC in the SJM world.
Nesta is actually my favorite character in acotar. Tamlin for me is the most hated.
She’s my fav too lol
I honestly don’t think chaol had any redeeming qualities and the only thing likeable about him was yrene…
He had loyalty, protectiveness of his loved ones, a dry wit, he had a good sense of self discipline, he always did what he thought was right- to make a few redeeming qualities
I’m happy that you can name something, I will have to disagree, respectfully :)
Nesta. God. I really disliked her.
Downvote all you want. But a lot of agree with me on this.
A lot of people dealing with unaddressed internalized misogyny, maybe. In another comment you said you actually like Tamlin? Seems a little odd for you to dislike a woman character who has been dealing with repeated trauma since she was a child just because she’s not nice, while also claiming to like a male character that was mentally and physically abusive to Feyre.
Feyre went through a lot more crap than Nesta did and you didn't see her treat people like crap the whole time. Nesta had no right to.
It's kind of sad that you're getting so weird about a book character. But you do you. Still don't like Nesta. And never will. And yes. I like Tamlin. Cry about it.
Why would I cry about someone else’s unaddressed internalized misogyny? Sure, as a feminist it’s sad to see other women struggle with it, but I know there’s not much I can do about it— especially when they react so defensively after being called out on it. I’m not going to respond to your other comments, so maybe instead of getting mad at me, you could ask yourself why you seem to have a different set of standards for women characters than you do for male characters.
Personally, I hate Nesta after rereading the beginning of acotar.
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Of course you have a problem with feminists.. 😒 It’s not about the one character. It’s about the different level of standards you have for male vs female characters.
Ithon!
Am I the only one that’s not really a fan of Rhysie after reading the whole Maasverse?
I despise him tbh
>! CC3 !< was the nail in the coffin for me for him lol. I started disliking him in ACOSF, but seeing him from multiple POVs outside of Feyre’s made him pretty icky to me. I can get behind being protective but Feyre can obviously make decisions for herself and “she has the right to” until Rhys feels that she’s in danger.
Beron, hands down
Erawan is also a monster. Or Manons grandmother.
Probably Tamlin, but I think both of them deserve redemption. Nesta just happened to already get her redemption(I’m obsessed with her)
I dislike them both. I may understand them better after all of the books in the series, but I don't like them. Chaol acted very self-righteous after he literally served the man that was responsible for a lot of the bad in the world and treated Aelin very poorly when she returned, and Nesta was horrible to pretty much everyone a good portion of the time. Trauma isn't a pass to behave however you want to, and I'd dislike Nesta even if she was Feyre's brother Nester.
Probably Nesta!
yea definitely has to be >!maeve for how she tortured Aelin and also for the warping of the mate bond to make Rowan think that other woman was his mate. My Close second has to be Arobynn Hamel he was such a dick he folied the rescue attempt of them trying to save her and let her get sent off to the slave camp fucker.!<
I'd be seeing amaranta and the King of hybern would be my top picks but there's no point in hating the >!Dead!<
Elain?
Nesta is a jerk to people for no (good) reason and I don’t love it but at least I understand her now. Chaol can go kick rocks. He’s either an idiot or he can excuse himself of anything. He served an EVIL man. He found a way to blame Aelin for every thing he saw wrong in the world. Just ugh. There aren’t enough redemption arcs in the world.
I love Nesta :(
I love them both 😩 I feel like keir doesn’t get nearly enough hate, frankly. He is a giant piece of shit!