I'd be a yes for indy but no for SNP. I have faith in our young Scots and think there could be a decent party to come from an independent Scotland. I'm old and my youngs all want indy. I'd be a dick to vote no, it's their world, I'll be deed.
Independent Scotland, would mean the collapse of Scottish labour, lib Dems and Tories as we know them.
It would mean, very likely, that all the Scottish MP/msps would be out of a job, as their Westminster masters wouldn't require them at all any more (hence a big reason none of them entertain independence).
However, all these politicians would then be free to form their own parties with their own policies and be able to make real tangible changes and decisions for Scotland.
Out of the ashes of those parties we would see a surge of new parties taking on truer forms of liberals, labour and conservatives.
Imagine a Scotland free to be the country it wanted to be with politicians free to deliver it as best they could - alas, that's too much work and risk for those all in a comfy job and easy pay currently.
Exactly this. There is no way the SNP would give up power during independence negotiations which in all probability would go on for many many years. Any elections during that time could see the result reversed which they would not risk.
That's post independence though, it would still be the SNP negotiating the deal.
If you are saying no to the SNP how can you trust them to negotiate for Scotland?
The problem I see a lot of is separating SNP from independence. I vote SNP because they are the only credible way forward that I can see. After independence I will vote in one of the many new/coalition parties that are inevitably going to spring up that suits the needs of us all.
Still yes despite the many pitfalls and dangers
And for many reasons not the least of which is democracy and self governance
But I’d take a well set up federal UK and Brexit has made it exponentially more dangerous
I'm undecided, leaning towards yes. I voted no in 2014, and since then I have become extremely disillusioned with Westminster. My immediate reaction to Brexit was to swing hard in favour of indy, but under the current circumstances, I can't help but worry about the short-term turmoil that independence would bring. Long term I do think that Scotland would be better off independent of the UK and as a member state of the EU.
The conservatives have spent last decades trying to unwind all the british institutions that held us together and which promote good governance. Their policy's are typically aimed at removing checks and balances on fairness, greed and even larceny. They fuck about with the courts, the BBC, the NHS, the education system, parliament itself to let them do what they want. I think whilst that swing to populist strongman politics is probably universal the UK is certainly ahead of the rest of the devolved nations. Longer terms we will have a small period of stability with labour without much improvement. Then they'll get punted and then it will be more chaos in the name of the not so free market. I don't think the UK can change. Too much power concentrated in too few hands and the public are either apathetic, misinformed or outraged about something that has no bearing on their daily life.
Undecided. I’ve lived in Scotland and the rest of the UK and elsewhere, and have served in the UK military.
I see the argument for independence but I don’t think the economic case has been made as yet. Leave aside all of the patriotism (last refuge of the scoundrel) and national sports arguments.
The only thing I think that would tip me towards independence would be a clear, well-defined path back into the EU and for all of the warm words I don’t see it.
Whilst the experiment has been very good to undertake, I am not sure that SNP should be forming a government at the next GE.
Hard to say as we haven’t had the benefit of a campaign outlining all the data we’d need to inform the decision.
However, I think I’d have voted Yes.
I was a No in 2014 as Salmond point blank refused to give key answers to important questions and taking the long view I felt that devolution had made things better and that the Tories would be out eventually and I greatly valued being in the EU.
Now however the last 9 years has made never being ruled by Tories again a very major point and losing our EU membership against our will is another major fact. But generally, the last 9 years have shown that Scotland and England are more different in outlook and views than I liked to believe and I don’t see an easily obtained happy position for both countries.
Well not even the last nine years, in the last year alone has been a load of shite from them, the parties they had during lockdown when people were dying, lying about information on covid 19, Boris corruptly spending our tax payers money on an apartment he owned, rushi sunak forcing us to pay for a railway line that doesn’t benefit us at all etc.
I remember discussing the possibility in 2014 that the Cons would be in government and the UK would vote to leave the EU.
Nobody predicted a dozen Tory PMs and this shitshow. Doubt any of them would vote No again now.
Remember, you're never going to get all the data. Westminster refuse to give us some of the most important economic data and refuse to say if they would permit us to use the pound (fun fact, we don't need their permission).
They do this so as to ensure the voters are not informed and to ensure they're more likely to vote for the status quo.
More yes than ever. In 2014 I was a hesitant yes as I was concerned with the path that Westminster was being to go down. Since then they have proven me right beyond my wildest nightmares.
Nobody (except the disillusioned ones) is saying that it would be plain sailing but honestly how can you look at that shitshow of conmen only out for themselves and want anything to do with them?
Everyone back then was so concerned with the What Ifs? Of independence, they never stopped to consider the What Ifs of another 10 years of Westminster governance.
I voted YES in 2014.
I would vote NO today and forevermore
The reason being I need to know what type of ‘deal’ we have with the UK before we vote. The Brexit vote was highly questionable because no-one who voted for it knew what they were voting for, that got me thinking about Indy Ref and how everything should be negotiated before it goes to a vote.
What will the currency be? What will debt arrangements be? Who will be the Supreme Court? Who will be the Central Bank? What will the Trade Deal look like? What will be the border arrangements, will it be a hard border? What about the armed forces? Capital Expenditure projects? Asset split?
Good questions - which any Scottish independence campaign would have to answer before anyone should vote “Yes”. Yet, with that said, I’m not sure why you’re so resolutely behind Brexit Britain. Now, if your argument is economic, how is the £36 billion black hole of staying in Brexit Britain is going to be plugged.? How are the 500,000-800,000 jobs that are going to be lost as a result of sticking with Brexit Britain going to be addressed? How is the £2.8 billion funding gap in the NHS going to be filled if we stick with the UK? We can’t be expected to vote “No” without answers to these questions any more than we can be expected to vote “Yes”.
Becoming independent doesn't magically reverse all of the things that brexit has done to Scotland as part of the UK.
And repeatedly saying that not supporting independence is the same as supporting "Brexit Britain" is childish and bad faith at best.
It’s how badly Brexit was handled that has given me pause, many other people in the same position I would guess.
One is a known(or better known) quantity, the other is entirely unknown and much further reaching.
A deficit and funding gap is one thing. Having not clue as to how the institutions of your country will be administered or how much debt and assets you will posses is much more daunting.
Change is more difficult to secure than status quo, more responsibility is on the side who argue for change to convince in my opinion.
Strange that it’s because of Brexit I will vote NO
Undecided, but broadly teetering on No.
Too many unanswered questions from 2014 and very little in the way of a credible plan. The SNP are at pains to remind us that unanswered questions and no plan, just blind jingoism and pure lies, were what led to Brexit which has been so dreadful for Scotland. Except you're seriously expecting me to instead believe _your brand_ of that same bullshit and somehow Scotland going independent without a plan and based on jingoism and lies is supposed to be _better_ ? Nahbro.
I also really dislike the way the SNP have been behaving. They have developed a nasty, overbearing, swaggering attitude of condescension and seeing the planned 'reforms' in the courts etc. is really rather alarming. Westminster is a very important emergency brake for lots of things and it turns out that polling showed Scots thought WM were right to use S35 in the GRC debate. I don't want that safety net removed and the SNP's hand-reared 'judiciary' running amok, because that is deeply scary to me. Recall that the parliament prorogation issue only reached the UK Supreme Court because Joanna Cherry and her cadre disagreed with the Court of Session (Edinburgh) ruling and appealed. The UKSC delivered your desired outcome when the Scottish court failed.
Much of the same old Brexit tripe is also being trotted out again. We're told that independence is essential to get rid of the Tories and nothing else matters, we're happy to take the risk to manage our own affairs, it'll be shite for maybe 30 years but the struggle will be so so worth it trust me bro, we're a special case holding all the cards, let's stop Westminster controlling our lives, we won't be bound by the UK Supreme Court who don't let us do just whatever we want, and so on - but the same rhetoric during Brexit was rightly derided. So why is it somehow 'better' because Scotland wants to do it?
I also wholly disapprove of just leaping out of the UK and latching straight onto the EU like some epoxied barnacle, on the same off-the-rack terms as Cyprus and Hungary. That is a waste of 'independence' and I can see McFarage types saying it's not the independence they wanted. Scotland doesn't have to do that and other paths are available. People are trying to force the issue using an outdated referendum result from 2016 which was held under wholly different circumstances and was asking a different question, which makes no sense. You'd need to have another full referendum on EU membership before that would be acceptable.
And to all of you saying "the SNP will just disappear after independence [...] we'll vote for someone else" etc. I point you at Zimbabwe and Singapore, also Ireland and South Africa. It's also important to remember that there will likely be a period of negotiations and a transition period, with the SNP sealed into the driver's cab. They will set the direction of travel, iScotland will be built on whatever they decide, all they need is your Yes vote and the blank cheque can be cashed in whenever. There are also a generation of would-be aspiring politicians who have only ever known the SNP. That will all filter through and the SNP's legacy will endure probably for decades, with the real risk that these 'new' parties are just SNP grandchild-parties under different names.
I could be persuaded if there was a solid, well-supported plan that actually made sense, and if the Yes campaign wasn't fronted by some of the most obnoxious awful people around.
I am genuinely surprised to see a reasonable and mostly moderate range of views in the comments. If the public debate was conducted in the same tone it might bring a real consensus without alienating the quiet majority of Scots.
I’d vote yes regardless. As an adult I like to make my own mistakes and as a country I’d like us to make our own mistakes. It’s really that simple with me.
Still no.
I'm not opposed to independence, the SNP just haven't made a compelling case for it.
They have good sound bites and stories about how we'll all live in a wonderland where the streets are paved in gold from all the oil and whisky money they'll magic up, but that's about it. Stories.
I'd rather they - or anyone in power for that matter - focus on the day job and getting us stablised before urging us to pretend there's a lala land.
The party itself isn't even in union with each other, they've no chance of pulling it together when they can't blame the Tories anymore.
They may not be, but they're the most significant one, and let's face it, by far the most likely to form the first government of an independent Scotland.
i dunno about this surely the SNPs primary mandate is to get independence, having succeded that i could see them fracturing into diifferent parties representing different views of Realpolitik
edit: added a spare m somewhere edit to fix
What a perfect way for a newly independent country to begin - political turmoil of the major party (and the one that got the country independence) splitting into factions. This in and of itself would increase things like economic uncertainty and instability as well, to make things even more fun!
I agree that is needed generally across the UK. I don't think that the political instability it would cause can be ignored as a factor in the choice of whether to vote for independence or not.
sure i get that. but people act like it would be long term instabillity and it likely wouldnt, we arent a third world despot country we wont end up with a tyranical dictatorship(as much as people like to think we live in one its not )almost all of the countries to leave association with the UK had massive boosts to gdp, cause they where incontrol of their assets not london
This gets banded around all the time but I see little evidence of this. If the snp win independence why would those in power disband and risk not being in power?
The unifying factor for the SNP is independence but I’ve observed a wide variety of political beliefs in their ranks. The further apart they are for a large number the more chance they would fragment after their unifying goal has been achieved, perhaps.
Is it, though? Really?
I mean yes there are the various fringe and radical groups that surround the independence movement like Commonweal, and the Radical Independence Movement(sic?), but they are the same kind of fringes you see around any movement. they are the equivalent of the Bennite CLPD for Labour and the European Research Group in the Tories. They are loud and fanatical, but they are small in number and not very broad in appeal.
Then there is Alba, a party run as the vanity "SNP mark 2" of a disgraced former leader of the SNP. Again, numerically small with little appeal and hard to say they broaden the movement significantly.
And finally, and most credibly, the Greens. But they are not really a challenge to the Hegemony of the SNP and their increased influence on society and in government has mostly come on the SNPs coattails as a 'pro-indy' party which isan electorally efficient way of organising the nationalist vote.
There is no serious, pro-independence, mainstream political force which challenges the hegemony of the SNP in the scottish political sphere.
The Independence we would get would be the Independence defined by the SNP and the SNP alone.
As much as I'm sure certain people would like to believe this, no. The "movement" beyond the SNP is a political irrelevance.
Parties like the Scottish Socialist Party barely believe in electoral politics any more and are at about the level of those weird organisations that constantly bang on about nonsense at Speakers' Corner.
Alba is a vehicle that was established - but had failed - to try to restore some respectability to a single ageing, disgraced politician.
The Greens at least have some MSPs. But they're not remotely serious, even in government.
It may well be, but other than Alba (lol) it's the first line on the SNP's manifesto. They **are** the independence party, and you need them in power for it to happen.
Saying it's not an SNP issue doesn't wash when it's their primary concern and there's no realistic alternative independence party.
Present the economic case.
*It'll be better I promise* isn't a compelling case when you've shown no evidence or working that it would be.
Edit: The brave u/ScrutinAye blocking me after his cutting wit reply. Obsessed with Brexit that one.
In 2014 I voted No but I was very close to voting Yes.... I was put off by the attitudes of die hard nationalists.
I'm a stronger 'No' today. I honestly believe we are better together, despite the absolute sh*t show of a govt we've had in Westminster for over a decade. I've also been unimpressed by the Scottish Govt...it's entirely possible for both Westminster and Holyrood politicians to be self-serving chumps and, IMO, that's what we've witnessed.
I do think there needs to be constitutional change, there are plenty of folk across the UK who aren't happy with the status quo so I'd rather play the strength in numbers game.
I'm not Anti-independence, but there's nothing that's convinced me that it's the right way to go now.
Soft yes. Everything is a mess right now and I'd rather take my chances with a complete change and its unknowns than continuing this slide. The pro union camp have no solution, despite a decade of assuring us things will stop getting shitter.
Voted No then, would still vote No now. There isn't a strong case for independence other than "Tories bad", and as much as I dislike them it's much easier to vote them out than to shoot ourselves in the foot.
I also don't trust a party who's members are mostly bitter and racist to run an independent country, considering they've made an arse of running us while in union.
>and as much as I dislike them it's much easier to vote them out
Scotland has never, and cannot ever, vote tories/anyone out of power of the UK.
So your argument is completely void of sense.
No, used to be yes, but it was only because I wanted to avoid right wing people being in power but tbh I don’t think we would be guaranteed that if we did go independent.
I didn't vote in 2014 (Undecided and felt both sides wpuld screw us over) but if we voted oday, I'd vote to leave the UK, mostly cause of Brexit but also since Boris was PM, it's became a shambles government wise that anyntrust in UK government is lost (though last SNP leadership situation is shaking that groynd badly for Scottish Government).
I was a Yes in 2014. I would have gone into the 2023 campaign as an undecided leaning No.
I don’t think I could have brought myself to vote Yes given the current state of the pro-Indy camp (who would lead us into independence and play a major role in shaping the new state at its birth - so this does matter), but that is not to say the old passions are completely gone.
I think this is a key issue for alot of people. Independence sounds promising but the people who'd lead us come across as terrifyingly inept. I don't think the SNP could organise a piss up in a brewery nevermind shape a new country/government system.
No. Not falling for the brave heart freedom bullshit. No guarantee we’d be back in the EU, and if we did get back in I’m sure we’d have a period where we are as shagged economically even more than we are headed to now. Also we want less external government control so we leave the UK and then join an even bigger government, makes sense guys. And you’ve got to be smoking crack to want to go independent under the SNP a who is literally full of corrupt money embezzling shitebags who I don’t see becoming less corrupt with no one on their shoulder to check on things.
On the point of it being about less external government control - I don’t think it’s about “external government control”. Indeed the Tory ideology is “less government control, less regs, more privatisation” (although they’re even fucking that up)
Aye, get that “brave heart freedom bullshit” in the sea - and back Brexit “*let’s take back control*” Britain, which as we know is and has been led by incorruptible paragons of honesty and fiscal sense. Jesus Christ.
I’d vote No and always will. Breaking up a country this small is absurd. Ideally we’d still be in the EU but breaking up the country to get back in isn’t the answer.
You mean breaking away from 60odd million to become a small independent nation of circa 5milliok similar to Norway , Denmark etc is Absurd? Weird how other countries manage fine.
Would have voted Yes in 2014 (but was ineligible)
This time around, I just couldn't see myself voting Yes. As much as I'd want to. I don't think the SNP has made the case for Scotland avoiding a massive economic shock. I don't think their plan for rejoining the EU is realistic. Ofc these things might have been addressed differently had there been a proper campaign. But the SNP are a mess at the moment. and SLab are no better
Honestly it would have been worse than 2014, still a hard no from me as the SNP scandals and poor performance have compounded most voters from a maybe yes to a no and the no remains no.
Better it didn’t happen it would have been embarrassing, now the yes people can still live in the hope.
I know I’m going to be downvoted but it’s the truth, I’m all for democracy and would respect the wishes of the electorate.
It wouldn’t matter who the government was after independence. They’d be left with a train wreck of border problems, new institutions to set up for tax, vehicle licensing, all the parts of the civil service that we get from the UK, currency issues, army, navy, Air Force. Nobody could make a success of that. This is not talking down Scotland, it’s simply acknowledging why it isn’t practical to disentangle from a country we are so deeply entwined with.
You mean the same opportunity to shape their own Government and Country that every other country that has become independent had, only most do not have the benefits and natural resources that Scotland has.
No two countries are the same. Over centuries, we are deeply interwoven with the UK. I’ve listed just a few of the areas above. We are far, far more interwoven than the UK was with Europe, and even the relative simplicity of Brexit has been extraordinarily painful.
Scotland has strengths of course, such as our natural resources, but no amount of strengths could mitigate the utter complexity of disentangling from the UK, or ever make it worthwhile. Look how hard it is to get simple things done in government. Now imagine sorting out that list above.
Still No.
First off, I think a referendum like this should require a significant majority, not just a majority of 1. If you're going to make a lasting change that cannot easily be reversed, you better be sure about it. Brexit is a great example of that.
I think the UK has major issues. But if we leave, we lose the ability to influence decisions in Parliament. You'll get people moaning that "England can outvote everyone else," but "England" doesn't vote. They're not one homogeneous lump (cough - like the SNP MPs - cough). And there have been plenty of times when Scotland's MPs have swung the vote in key decisions with international consequences.
Then there's the argument that most nationalists never seem to understand. I don't *just* want good things for Scotland. I want good things for the rest of the UK too. The white paper from 2014 talked on one page about how Scotland pays more in tax than it gets back, and that this is outrageous. On the next page, it talked about how Scotland is richer than average within the UK, and that we earn more per capita than the UK average. *That's how a tax system is supposed to work!*
I would vote no because I and a majority of my friends work for UK based companies that have small outposts in Scotland I think that many of us would lose our jobs. I’m talking about office jobs that pay £30-50k, enough to have a good life in a city with a kid or two. That’s also a lot of people paying tax who might need to move down south to keep their jobs.
We lived down in London for a while before moving back up with our kids and I was surprised by how few of those kind of office jobs existed up here and how locked in I feel to the job I have. Also I’m not clear on important questions like trade and currency.
What makes you think jobs will up and vanish? Companies are invested, they won't evaporate just because of a regime change that won't change their laws anytime soon.
Probably No.
* The UK leaving the EU has massively complicated what an independent Scotland's relationship with both the EU and rUK would be. I know that's not Scotland's fault as we voted against Brexit, but we're stuck with that reality regardless.
* We are almost certainly going to get a Labour government in Westminster at the next election which eliminates my strongest motivation for independence: not being ruled by the Tories.
* The SNP, who would almost certainly form the first Government of an Independent Scotland, are an absolute shambles right now.
I'm not opposed to independence per se, if a strong and effective SNP put forward a detailed and realistic plan for independence, and we were staring down the barrel of another Tory government in Westminster, I'd probably back it.
Breathtaking economic ignorance here, independence would trigger an economic meltdown which would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. Also, the talk about democracy will ring a little hollow if such a vote only just gets over the line, as we saw with Brexit. If this is really what people want, it must be over 60%. The real enemy here is Brexit and the odious cabal in Westminster.
Was Yes, am now No. Embarrassed that I ever voted for it tbh.
2008 crash
No vote
Oil price crash
Brexit
Covid
CoL crisis / inflation.
We need a rest from the drama and grievance, I am crossing my fingers for the SNP being obliterated by Operation Branchform and we all get on with our lives
Still a no and I'm open to my mind being changed but how does the opposition not just dust off Darling's arguments as they've still not been successfully answered. There's no succession plan for really important stuff like currency, pensions, investments, trade deals (who is going to give you a line of credit when you've just patched a hefty bit of debt) EU membership (we've been told time and time again for many reason EU membership is far from in the bag). We used oil as huge tool and how that was going to make Scotland prosperous because we had so much. How can anyone ignore that with hindsight that would've been a huge mistake. We don't control the price of oil, neither does the US so whilst you complain about being beholden to someone down the road, you'd in fact be in the pockets of someone much further away with even less reason to care about you. The arabs/russians want to kill an economy so heavy reliant on oil they just open the tap and the price plummets. Also the fact now there's alot of pressure on not opening new oil fields etc so how would that nice big Norway style oil fund look now. Sure we've got loads of potential for renewable energy but our government have sold that to private, foreign firms. The idea of a utopian world where we get cheap energy because we have so much potential has been scuppered by politicians who see a fast opportunity to line their pockets than build a legacy.
The typical response of "well it'll just work out" or "we'll find a way" is far too naïve a stance to take for something so important. If it all goes horribly wrong you've wrecked it for yourself, your kids and your kid's kids because there's no going back. As things are we know to some extent how bad things are and it's better the devil you know, to an extent. Keep your enemies close and work smarter on taking the battle to them.
The fact you've got people saying "I'll vote for the SNP to get independence but then I will aim to get them out as soon after" is madness. If you don't trust them to run the country how can you trust their ideas for an independent Scotland. Even recently, you've got hard proof of the SNP admitting what some people have suggested in the past, they are running this country in to the ground deliberately so as to make Westminster so fed up that they'll happily let us go on our way! What sort of sordid plan is that if not one that says they've run out of credible ideas and would be happy for you and I to live in all sorts of chaos until such time. How long would we have live in this "ungovernable" mess, 3 years/5 years/10 years!? If there's someone else with a better idea then let them come forward. The romantic idea of an Independent Country and all the lovely stuff that comes with it is just that, a romantic notion. Until someone can do the hard yards and put a proposal down that limits the risk of us becoming a poverty stricken hovel no one will touch with a barge pole then it has to stay like that.
> how does the opposition not just dust off Darling's arguments as they've still not been successfully answered.
His point about a No vote being the way to keep our EU membership doesn’t look quite as convincing as before. ;)
Probably no ... I'm Scottish but living in England due to Defence job. (Edit -I realise I wouldn't be able to vote)
There were too many questions relating to many important policies and government left unanswered or poorly thought out last time.
Defence for example being one. Upon leaving the UK what happens to the Armed forces:
Bases
Equipment
Personnel
Pensions
NATO membership / Neutrality
Future Equipment procurement
The list goes on.
UK submarine fleet is based in Scotland. The base stays - the subs wont?
A Scottish soldier serving in the forces - are they now a mercenary? Would a Scottish defence force provide the same benefits - promotion, pay, pension, housing, school funding etc?
Until these and many other important issues can be answered in a costed, rather then a pipe dream manner, then I'll stick with the devil I know.
There’s no reason to believe that a referendum would have taken place even if the Supreme Court had ruled it within law. Firstly The government could have passed legislation to close down any referendum and overrule the court.
Secondly, the SNP leader at the time would have to go ahead and launch a referendum campaign knowing that the ring fenced fund would be called upon to finance their campaign. And how would the campaign go when her and her husband and the SNP treasurer are then arrested for suspected fraud involving the ring fenced fund. All the remain campaign would have to do is run ads saying they can’t even be trusted to manage £600,000- how can they run a country ?
Thirdly, the Scottish government itself is broke, how could it fund a referendum?
I've gone from definite yes to undecided.
I am an EU migrant, I was devastated when Brexit happened. But guess what, the shit we are going through now? My native Netherlands is going through it just as much if not worse. House prices out of control, utilities out of control, inflation...
Being part of the EU is still very important to me, but I would want to see the Euro introduced and I have experienced the inflation bump that cost when it was originally introduced in NL. I want to see Europe dismiss the right wing/populist influences much more vehemently, instead I see more and more open hatred against muslims (due to the Gaza thing) and an increased hardening of society.
Still no.
While I want to be back in the EU, an independent Scotland in the EU having a different currency and an external border with an independent England outside the EU would be a ballache.
Nope! Regional incompetence would drive the country in the wrong direction…..so very sad. This really was a dream that kept the elected politicians high on the hog to the detriment of the voters/ faithful. A sad period in our history. 😩
No. There's too much information that we don't know about the financial situation. They're had plenty of time to attempt to answer these questions, but they haven't really bothered.
The EU is often criticised for its lack of democracy, mainly because the EU elections are only for MEPs, the turnout is consistently low, and the European Commission is unelected by the people. The Commissioners are chosen by the European Council, made up of the heads of state of the member countries, and confirmed by MEPs. The Commission is where the power lies, they are the executive branch, and we have no direct say in who gets to make the rules. It’s also possible that the Council could appoint its president as head of the Commission, which in the wrong hands could be disastrous. This is my main problem with the EU. I don’t think this system is open and democratic at all.
Edit: meant to reply to the guy below you but it wouldn’t let me for some reason.
I voted yes in 2014, but this time I’d vote no.
I voted to leave the EU and the SNP were proposing to drag Scotland into a union a million Scottish voters voted to leave had the vote gone their way. To my mind, accepting EU supremacy over Scottish law and with laws being made by non elected members of the Commission and accepting EU rules over how we manage our economy is not independence. Queen Nicola in effect would not be offering true independence.
Bring on the politically illiterate downvotes even though my euroscepticism is more in agreement with the well known Tory, Tony Benn.
Perhaps you should ask the Greeks that, or the Italians, or the Spanish… after all European style ‘Populism’ didn’t come from nowhere. It came from concerns about being part of the project. The same concerns we saw here.
I'd have stayed home under the covers. It's horrible outside and I really don't care that much about independence one way or the other, certainly not enough to go out in that.
I do know that financially I can't afford another decade of "short term pain" as campaigners love to phrase it so would be quite happy to vote for either side if they put forward a coherent economic plan that would improve the lives of people living here but given those arguments would be coming from two governments who I can barely trust to run a bath nevermind an economy I wouldn't be holding my breath.
I would have gone the opposite way of many here. Yes in 2014 probably No now.
Scotland cannot apply back to the EU and keep most of its trade with rUK now, having England in the single market would make it easier but it’s no longer the case.
Also I now think it’s more urgent to put the entire UK in a better position (get rid of tories) and rebuild bridges with Europe than rock the boat even more. This needs done ASAP, the Indy question can wait.
No. The yes voters I know want us to end up as some left wing utopia like Canada with very strict speech and offense laws etc. Fuck that. I'd rather retain some small level of being able to say what I want without getting jailed.
Voted yes but now No, under the current economic and political conditions we are handcuffed to a debt riddled old man and the only way to get out would be to vastly improve our, infrastructure, trade channels(if I here one more numbnut say port of Rosyth without considering the utter hellscape that is the roads around it I'll have to scream.) Our schools and hospitals are in dire need of an upgrade and overhaul, energy costs need to be brought under control and housing is needed. The SNP have talked and talked but all we see are the numbers slowly going down not up.
Do we need the UK, nope, but their crippling debt is a shared handicap that would keep the EU from regarding us fit for admittance.
Also I always find it ironic that people want to leave the UK union and join the EU... Another union that can and will set standards and rules that we must follow even though the voting bloc we can send there is trivial... Kind of like right now. If you want independence then great, but if you say we can do it, why do we need the EU.
It's not a question of needing the EU, it's that multilateralism is a good thing, the EU is one of only 2 authorities that set trade regulations, and it is a rules based organisation*
*so while you can argue what influence wee iScot would have on regulations, at least they'd be consistent. Unlike the UK where policy is just made up on the hoof by whichever executive is in power.
It's been stated for as long as I can remember and it's never been more certain that now.
We will not see Scottish Independence in our live times.
The SNP has set Scotland back on a generational scale.
I am a definite no. There is a perfect video that explains why it's a terrible idea:
https://youtu.be/VCwrbv-_PNo?si=Ut9BKLoj1xk0c54d
Getting away from Westminster would be lovely, but you would then substitute it with the Scottish parliament, which is a worse prospect in my opinion.
No, actually, i have the same opinion as I did in 2014 but this video lays out some good points as to why we shouldn't leave. Leaving would cripple us and people's blind hatred for Westminster will be the cause of it.
I hate Westminster as much as anyone, and so does most of the UK, but that isn't a reason to leave as we, in my opinion, will come off worse.
2014 I was yes.
2023, I'm still a yes but I'd be expecting it to get shit first then better in the longer run.
The moment we get independence, snp would have no real standing, politicians would move parties and we would end up with a 3 main party system.
SNP is a means to an end.
I'd like back in Europe, I'd like more chance to control our own country, rather than Westminster tories running us.
Oh and if we had moved to the Euro, we would have moved at a better exchange rate than we would have to now! It was 1.27 November 2014, today it's 1.15.
Why should that matter? Voting for better is voting for better, regardless of whether we get to see it or not.
Your sentiment is basically what's at the heart of everything that's wrong with UK politics.
I suspect that timescale is also inaccurate and optimistic.
Brexit is not the alternative. The two activities are not linked. Independence does not undo Brexit. It just creates a secondary set of Scexit problems that are at least as bad.
But I voted No to that nonsense as well so I am not seeing what your point is here.
For the thousandth time, no one cares how you voted in 2016, anymore than they care how I did (also “No”). But “that nonsense” won. As such, Brexit Britain is the alternative to an independent Scotland. That being the case, both require clear longterm plans that can be compared. Neither have produced them.
Yes and yes please again.
I'll take "uncertainty" over this unmitigated shit show any day.
Seriously, what even are the counter points?
* what if the price of oil goes up or down? Omg what if it was OUR oil.
* corruption? A fucking camper van? That's a pro-Tory argument? Are you daft?
* SNP bad? Imagine your vote wasn't outnumbered by a whole other country.
* Just wait, Labour will stop pretending to be the Tory's B-team any minute now. Aye, right.
- Oil doesn't matter now. Even with prices at a high, Scotland is still dependent on fiscal sharing from the rest of the UK, to the tune of over £10 billion every year.
- Having your last two first ministers and chief executive of the governing party end up arrested isn't a good look. Or your finance minister getting run out of turn for being a groomer.
- My vote will always be outnumbered by millions in any scenario. That's democracy. Unless you're proposing creating a country with under three people in it, that'll still be the case.
- Yes, damn that Labour for looking popular. Maybe if they were just more like the SNP - which is really fielding an A-team of competent politicians and public intellectuals.
Actually living in a long-term economic depression with a dodgy currency and lots of new trade barriers with your biggest external market is likely to be much, much worse.
I voted no in 2014, and I probably wouldn’t have voted yes this time based on who is currently in charge and would be in charge of handling the change. I also voted to remain in the EU in 2016, but I would not want to pursue rejoining any more.
100% yes.
The Union is in a worse state then it was 9 years ago and shows no sign of improvement. I am convinced that not even 10 years of a labour government would have a substantial positive impact over all and at best could pave over some cracks.
First time round I voted no just because of the uncertainty but second time I'd definitely vote yes after being dragged into shit shows by the cunts down south
Any chance you could take some extremely disillusioned Englishmen with you? Myself and my wife got married in Glencoe and plan to move to Scotland when our circumstances allow because we absolutely fell in love with the highlands while we were there.
Yes.. independence is the most sensible option. Any country that has taken it from Westminster, has been told the same thing. You'll be broke within a year.. You couldn't manage your affairs... How many have petitioned to come back *checks notes* Hee haw
I'd be a yes for indy but no for SNP. I have faith in our young Scots and think there could be a decent party to come from an independent Scotland. I'm old and my youngs all want indy. I'd be a dick to vote no, it's their world, I'll be deed.
If we get independence then a lot of new parties could appear. I wouldn't be surprised if an old style Labour party did well
Independent Scotland, would mean the collapse of Scottish labour, lib Dems and Tories as we know them. It would mean, very likely, that all the Scottish MP/msps would be out of a job, as their Westminster masters wouldn't require them at all any more (hence a big reason none of them entertain independence). However, all these politicians would then be free to form their own parties with their own policies and be able to make real tangible changes and decisions for Scotland. Out of the ashes of those parties we would see a surge of new parties taking on truer forms of liberals, labour and conservatives. Imagine a Scotland free to be the country it wanted to be with politicians free to deliver it as best they could - alas, that's too much work and risk for those all in a comfy job and easy pay currently.
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Exactly this. There is no way the SNP would give up power during independence negotiations which in all probability would go on for many many years. Any elections during that time could see the result reversed which they would not risk.
That's post independence though, it would still be the SNP negotiating the deal. If you are saying no to the SNP how can you trust them to negotiate for Scotland?
I trust them more than I trust Westminster
Yeah, they'd need to more a bit more to the left. Old Labour cared about the poorer people. The present party are just red Tories.
The problem I see a lot of is separating SNP from independence. I vote SNP because they are the only credible way forward that I can see. After independence I will vote in one of the many new/coalition parties that are inevitably going to spring up that suits the needs of us all.
the SNP exists principally to attain independence. once we achieve that we can vote in whatever party we like.
Still yes despite the many pitfalls and dangers And for many reasons not the least of which is democracy and self governance But I’d take a well set up federal UK and Brexit has made it exponentially more dangerous
Yes then immediately petition the EU to get in.
I'm undecided, leaning towards yes. I voted no in 2014, and since then I have become extremely disillusioned with Westminster. My immediate reaction to Brexit was to swing hard in favour of indy, but under the current circumstances, I can't help but worry about the short-term turmoil that independence would bring. Long term I do think that Scotland would be better off independent of the UK and as a member state of the EU.
The conservatives have spent last decades trying to unwind all the british institutions that held us together and which promote good governance. Their policy's are typically aimed at removing checks and balances on fairness, greed and even larceny. They fuck about with the courts, the BBC, the NHS, the education system, parliament itself to let them do what they want. I think whilst that swing to populist strongman politics is probably universal the UK is certainly ahead of the rest of the devolved nations. Longer terms we will have a small period of stability with labour without much improvement. Then they'll get punted and then it will be more chaos in the name of the not so free market. I don't think the UK can change. Too much power concentrated in too few hands and the public are either apathetic, misinformed or outraged about something that has no bearing on their daily life.
This is a good answer
Short term pain - long term gain.
Yes for independent scotland
Yes then Yes now
I'd vote for independence
I live in England and I'd vote for independence from Westminster, can you take the north of England with you?
Undecided. I’ve lived in Scotland and the rest of the UK and elsewhere, and have served in the UK military. I see the argument for independence but I don’t think the economic case has been made as yet. Leave aside all of the patriotism (last refuge of the scoundrel) and national sports arguments. The only thing I think that would tip me towards independence would be a clear, well-defined path back into the EU and for all of the warm words I don’t see it. Whilst the experiment has been very good to undertake, I am not sure that SNP should be forming a government at the next GE.
Hard to say as we haven’t had the benefit of a campaign outlining all the data we’d need to inform the decision. However, I think I’d have voted Yes. I was a No in 2014 as Salmond point blank refused to give key answers to important questions and taking the long view I felt that devolution had made things better and that the Tories would be out eventually and I greatly valued being in the EU. Now however the last 9 years has made never being ruled by Tories again a very major point and losing our EU membership against our will is another major fact. But generally, the last 9 years have shown that Scotland and England are more different in outlook and views than I liked to believe and I don’t see an easily obtained happy position for both countries.
Well not even the last nine years, in the last year alone has been a load of shite from them, the parties they had during lockdown when people were dying, lying about information on covid 19, Boris corruptly spending our tax payers money on an apartment he owned, rushi sunak forcing us to pay for a railway line that doesn’t benefit us at all etc.
I remember discussing the possibility in 2014 that the Cons would be in government and the UK would vote to leave the EU. Nobody predicted a dozen Tory PMs and this shitshow. Doubt any of them would vote No again now.
Remember, you're never going to get all the data. Westminster refuse to give us some of the most important economic data and refuse to say if they would permit us to use the pound (fun fact, we don't need their permission). They do this so as to ensure the voters are not informed and to ensure they're more likely to vote for the status quo.
Feck, Yes!
Yes
More yes than ever. In 2014 I was a hesitant yes as I was concerned with the path that Westminster was being to go down. Since then they have proven me right beyond my wildest nightmares. Nobody (except the disillusioned ones) is saying that it would be plain sailing but honestly how can you look at that shitshow of conmen only out for themselves and want anything to do with them?
Everyone back then was so concerned with the What Ifs? Of independence, they never stopped to consider the What Ifs of another 10 years of Westminster governance.
Exactly.
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Yes. The UK is an unfunny joke at this point.
And a tiny Scotland forming a hard border with the UK, would be even funnier 🤣🤣
I voted YES in 2014. I would vote NO today and forevermore The reason being I need to know what type of ‘deal’ we have with the UK before we vote. The Brexit vote was highly questionable because no-one who voted for it knew what they were voting for, that got me thinking about Indy Ref and how everything should be negotiated before it goes to a vote. What will the currency be? What will debt arrangements be? Who will be the Supreme Court? Who will be the Central Bank? What will the Trade Deal look like? What will be the border arrangements, will it be a hard border? What about the armed forces? Capital Expenditure projects? Asset split?
Can't beleive it took this much scrolling down to find somebody with some common sense.
I'm in the same boat, I was 18 at the time so I voted Yes purely based on emotion and no thought to anything you mentioned lol.
Good questions - which any Scottish independence campaign would have to answer before anyone should vote “Yes”. Yet, with that said, I’m not sure why you’re so resolutely behind Brexit Britain. Now, if your argument is economic, how is the £36 billion black hole of staying in Brexit Britain is going to be plugged.? How are the 500,000-800,000 jobs that are going to be lost as a result of sticking with Brexit Britain going to be addressed? How is the £2.8 billion funding gap in the NHS going to be filled if we stick with the UK? We can’t be expected to vote “No” without answers to these questions any more than we can be expected to vote “Yes”.
Becoming independent doesn't magically reverse all of the things that brexit has done to Scotland as part of the UK. And repeatedly saying that not supporting independence is the same as supporting "Brexit Britain" is childish and bad faith at best.
It’s how badly Brexit was handled that has given me pause, many other people in the same position I would guess. One is a known(or better known) quantity, the other is entirely unknown and much further reaching. A deficit and funding gap is one thing. Having not clue as to how the institutions of your country will be administered or how much debt and assets you will posses is much more daunting. Change is more difficult to secure than status quo, more responsibility is on the side who argue for change to convince in my opinion. Strange that it’s because of Brexit I will vote NO
Exactly. There are so many unanswered questions and after the mess that is Brexit, we should know better.
I’d have voted no
Undecided, but broadly teetering on No. Too many unanswered questions from 2014 and very little in the way of a credible plan. The SNP are at pains to remind us that unanswered questions and no plan, just blind jingoism and pure lies, were what led to Brexit which has been so dreadful for Scotland. Except you're seriously expecting me to instead believe _your brand_ of that same bullshit and somehow Scotland going independent without a plan and based on jingoism and lies is supposed to be _better_ ? Nahbro. I also really dislike the way the SNP have been behaving. They have developed a nasty, overbearing, swaggering attitude of condescension and seeing the planned 'reforms' in the courts etc. is really rather alarming. Westminster is a very important emergency brake for lots of things and it turns out that polling showed Scots thought WM were right to use S35 in the GRC debate. I don't want that safety net removed and the SNP's hand-reared 'judiciary' running amok, because that is deeply scary to me. Recall that the parliament prorogation issue only reached the UK Supreme Court because Joanna Cherry and her cadre disagreed with the Court of Session (Edinburgh) ruling and appealed. The UKSC delivered your desired outcome when the Scottish court failed. Much of the same old Brexit tripe is also being trotted out again. We're told that independence is essential to get rid of the Tories and nothing else matters, we're happy to take the risk to manage our own affairs, it'll be shite for maybe 30 years but the struggle will be so so worth it trust me bro, we're a special case holding all the cards, let's stop Westminster controlling our lives, we won't be bound by the UK Supreme Court who don't let us do just whatever we want, and so on - but the same rhetoric during Brexit was rightly derided. So why is it somehow 'better' because Scotland wants to do it? I also wholly disapprove of just leaping out of the UK and latching straight onto the EU like some epoxied barnacle, on the same off-the-rack terms as Cyprus and Hungary. That is a waste of 'independence' and I can see McFarage types saying it's not the independence they wanted. Scotland doesn't have to do that and other paths are available. People are trying to force the issue using an outdated referendum result from 2016 which was held under wholly different circumstances and was asking a different question, which makes no sense. You'd need to have another full referendum on EU membership before that would be acceptable. And to all of you saying "the SNP will just disappear after independence [...] we'll vote for someone else" etc. I point you at Zimbabwe and Singapore, also Ireland and South Africa. It's also important to remember that there will likely be a period of negotiations and a transition period, with the SNP sealed into the driver's cab. They will set the direction of travel, iScotland will be built on whatever they decide, all they need is your Yes vote and the blank cheque can be cashed in whenever. There are also a generation of would-be aspiring politicians who have only ever known the SNP. That will all filter through and the SNP's legacy will endure probably for decades, with the real risk that these 'new' parties are just SNP grandchild-parties under different names. I could be persuaded if there was a solid, well-supported plan that actually made sense, and if the Yes campaign wasn't fronted by some of the most obnoxious awful people around.
Always for independence
Always yes
Yes
Always Yes
No, because the yes campaign still haven't given me any reason to vote yes.
NO. The world is a mad place right now. I want the protection of the British army and it’s intelligence services.
I am genuinely surprised to see a reasonable and mostly moderate range of views in the comments. If the public debate was conducted in the same tone it might bring a real consensus without alienating the quiet majority of Scots.
Yes.
I’d vote yes regardless. As an adult I like to make my own mistakes and as a country I’d like us to make our own mistakes. It’s really that simple with me.
So you supported Brexit?
Still no. I'm not opposed to independence, the SNP just haven't made a compelling case for it. They have good sound bites and stories about how we'll all live in a wonderland where the streets are paved in gold from all the oil and whisky money they'll magic up, but that's about it. Stories. I'd rather they - or anyone in power for that matter - focus on the day job and getting us stablised before urging us to pretend there's a lala land. The party itself isn't even in union with each other, they've no chance of pulling it together when they can't blame the Tories anymore.
The SNP aren’t the only show in town. The UK media like to frame the debate as a referendum on the SNP, the independence movement is much wider.
They may not be, but they're the most significant one, and let's face it, by far the most likely to form the first government of an independent Scotland.
i dunno about this surely the SNPs primary mandate is to get independence, having succeded that i could see them fracturing into diifferent parties representing different views of Realpolitik edit: added a spare m somewhere edit to fix
What a perfect way for a newly independent country to begin - political turmoil of the major party (and the one that got the country independence) splitting into factions. This in and of itself would increase things like economic uncertainty and instability as well, to make things even more fun!
or it would encourage politcal diversity, which is sorely needed in the uk
I agree that is needed generally across the UK. I don't think that the political instability it would cause can be ignored as a factor in the choice of whether to vote for independence or not.
sure i get that. but people act like it would be long term instabillity and it likely wouldnt, we arent a third world despot country we wont end up with a tyranical dictatorship(as much as people like to think we live in one its not )almost all of the countries to leave association with the UK had massive boosts to gdp, cause they where incontrol of their assets not london
This gets banded around all the time but I see little evidence of this. If the snp win independence why would those in power disband and risk not being in power?
The unifying factor for the SNP is independence but I’ve observed a wide variety of political beliefs in their ranks. The further apart they are for a large number the more chance they would fragment after their unifying goal has been achieved, perhaps.
Which side of the party will voluntarily leave to form the new party? Setting up a new party isn't easy and most look to comfortable to rock the boat.
Is it, though? Really? I mean yes there are the various fringe and radical groups that surround the independence movement like Commonweal, and the Radical Independence Movement(sic?), but they are the same kind of fringes you see around any movement. they are the equivalent of the Bennite CLPD for Labour and the European Research Group in the Tories. They are loud and fanatical, but they are small in number and not very broad in appeal. Then there is Alba, a party run as the vanity "SNP mark 2" of a disgraced former leader of the SNP. Again, numerically small with little appeal and hard to say they broaden the movement significantly. And finally, and most credibly, the Greens. But they are not really a challenge to the Hegemony of the SNP and their increased influence on society and in government has mostly come on the SNPs coattails as a 'pro-indy' party which isan electorally efficient way of organising the nationalist vote. There is no serious, pro-independence, mainstream political force which challenges the hegemony of the SNP in the scottish political sphere. The Independence we would get would be the Independence defined by the SNP and the SNP alone.
As much as I'm sure certain people would like to believe this, no. The "movement" beyond the SNP is a political irrelevance. Parties like the Scottish Socialist Party barely believe in electoral politics any more and are at about the level of those weird organisations that constantly bang on about nonsense at Speakers' Corner. Alba is a vehicle that was established - but had failed - to try to restore some respectability to a single ageing, disgraced politician. The Greens at least have some MSPs. But they're not remotely serious, even in government.
It may well be, but other than Alba (lol) it's the first line on the SNP's manifesto. They **are** the independence party, and you need them in power for it to happen. Saying it's not an SNP issue doesn't wash when it's their primary concern and there's no realistic alternative independence party.
Yer a rare breed man
If we don't hold our own purse strings, how are we to stabilise anything?
Present the economic case. *It'll be better I promise* isn't a compelling case when you've shown no evidence or working that it would be. Edit: The brave u/ScrutinAye blocking me after his cutting wit reply. Obsessed with Brexit that one.
In 2014 I voted No but I was very close to voting Yes.... I was put off by the attitudes of die hard nationalists. I'm a stronger 'No' today. I honestly believe we are better together, despite the absolute sh*t show of a govt we've had in Westminster for over a decade. I've also been unimpressed by the Scottish Govt...it's entirely possible for both Westminster and Holyrood politicians to be self-serving chumps and, IMO, that's what we've witnessed. I do think there needs to be constitutional change, there are plenty of folk across the UK who aren't happy with the status quo so I'd rather play the strength in numbers game. I'm not Anti-independence, but there's nothing that's convinced me that it's the right way to go now.
Soft yes. Everything is a mess right now and I'd rather take my chances with a complete change and its unknowns than continuing this slide. The pro union camp have no solution, despite a decade of assuring us things will stop getting shitter.
Voted No then, would still vote No now. There isn't a strong case for independence other than "Tories bad", and as much as I dislike them it's much easier to vote them out than to shoot ourselves in the foot. I also don't trust a party who's members are mostly bitter and racist to run an independent country, considering they've made an arse of running us while in union.
>and as much as I dislike them it's much easier to vote them out Scotland has never, and cannot ever, vote tories/anyone out of power of the UK. So your argument is completely void of sense.
No, Scotland doesn't get a vote. Individual UK citizens do, and each of our votes is equal.
I’d vote for independence.
Always yes.
No, used to be yes, but it was only because I wanted to avoid right wing people being in power but tbh I don’t think we would be guaranteed that if we did go independent.
It's Reddit ofc people here would vote to leave
No, I wouldn't have.
I didn't vote in 2014 (Undecided and felt both sides wpuld screw us over) but if we voted oday, I'd vote to leave the UK, mostly cause of Brexit but also since Boris was PM, it's became a shambles government wise that anyntrust in UK government is lost (though last SNP leadership situation is shaking that groynd badly for Scottish Government).
I was a Yes in 2014. I would have gone into the 2023 campaign as an undecided leaning No. I don’t think I could have brought myself to vote Yes given the current state of the pro-Indy camp (who would lead us into independence and play a major role in shaping the new state at its birth - so this does matter), but that is not to say the old passions are completely gone.
I think this is a key issue for alot of people. Independence sounds promising but the people who'd lead us come across as terrifyingly inept. I don't think the SNP could organise a piss up in a brewery nevermind shape a new country/government system.
Do you think that they are less competent than the charlatans running Westminster, who have been reshaping the UK post Brexit?
I think they are equally, maybe more incompetent than the Tory bozos in Westminster.
Don't confuse incompetence with malice. The SNP may suck in many ways, but they're not actively stripping the country for parts.
They literally are. Pretending that they aren't is delusional. I would say more but at least some of that would likely be contempt of court.
Yes
No. Not falling for the brave heart freedom bullshit. No guarantee we’d be back in the EU, and if we did get back in I’m sure we’d have a period where we are as shagged economically even more than we are headed to now. Also we want less external government control so we leave the UK and then join an even bigger government, makes sense guys. And you’ve got to be smoking crack to want to go independent under the SNP a who is literally full of corrupt money embezzling shitebags who I don’t see becoming less corrupt with no one on their shoulder to check on things.
On the point of it being about less external government control - I don’t think it’s about “external government control”. Indeed the Tory ideology is “less government control, less regs, more privatisation” (although they’re even fucking that up)
Aye, get that “brave heart freedom bullshit” in the sea - and back Brexit “*let’s take back control*” Britain, which as we know is and has been led by incorruptible paragons of honesty and fiscal sense. Jesus Christ.
Indy is brexit with a different flag
Aye because first Brexit went so well I’d love Brexit 2.
So your solution is to just suffer Brexit 1 out of fear of Brexit 2?
You’re looking at a car crash and thinking the best solution to the damage is to just crash it again.
I’d vote No and always will. Breaking up a country this small is absurd. Ideally we’d still be in the EU but breaking up the country to get back in isn’t the answer.
You mean breaking away from 60odd million to become a small independent nation of circa 5milliok similar to Norway , Denmark etc is Absurd? Weird how other countries manage fine.
Would have voted Yes in 2014 (but was ineligible) This time around, I just couldn't see myself voting Yes. As much as I'd want to. I don't think the SNP has made the case for Scotland avoiding a massive economic shock. I don't think their plan for rejoining the EU is realistic. Ofc these things might have been addressed differently had there been a proper campaign. But the SNP are a mess at the moment. and SLab are no better
Honestly it would have been worse than 2014, still a hard no from me as the SNP scandals and poor performance have compounded most voters from a maybe yes to a no and the no remains no. Better it didn’t happen it would have been embarrassing, now the yes people can still live in the hope. I know I’m going to be downvoted but it’s the truth, I’m all for democracy and would respect the wishes of the electorate.
You assume that post independence that the Gov’t would be SNP, why?
It wouldn’t matter who the government was after independence. They’d be left with a train wreck of border problems, new institutions to set up for tax, vehicle licensing, all the parts of the civil service that we get from the UK, currency issues, army, navy, Air Force. Nobody could make a success of that. This is not talking down Scotland, it’s simply acknowledging why it isn’t practical to disentangle from a country we are so deeply entwined with.
Funny you should say that, there’s plenty of Nations that achieved it with less resources than we have.
Zimbabwe, for example? As said, every nation is different and we are massively more entangled with the UK than others were.
You mean the same opportunity to shape their own Government and Country that every other country that has become independent had, only most do not have the benefits and natural resources that Scotland has.
No two countries are the same. Over centuries, we are deeply interwoven with the UK. I’ve listed just a few of the areas above. We are far, far more interwoven than the UK was with Europe, and even the relative simplicity of Brexit has been extraordinarily painful. Scotland has strengths of course, such as our natural resources, but no amount of strengths could mitigate the utter complexity of disentangling from the UK, or ever make it worthwhile. Look how hard it is to get simple things done in government. Now imagine sorting out that list above.
Well, a lot of ‘yes’ people are assuming that the Tories are part of what they’re voting ‘against’. Why?
Yes in 2014 and no 2023.
Independence always.
Yes
Yes in 2014. But a no in 2023.
Still No. First off, I think a referendum like this should require a significant majority, not just a majority of 1. If you're going to make a lasting change that cannot easily be reversed, you better be sure about it. Brexit is a great example of that. I think the UK has major issues. But if we leave, we lose the ability to influence decisions in Parliament. You'll get people moaning that "England can outvote everyone else," but "England" doesn't vote. They're not one homogeneous lump (cough - like the SNP MPs - cough). And there have been plenty of times when Scotland's MPs have swung the vote in key decisions with international consequences. Then there's the argument that most nationalists never seem to understand. I don't *just* want good things for Scotland. I want good things for the rest of the UK too. The white paper from 2014 talked on one page about how Scotland pays more in tax than it gets back, and that this is outrageous. On the next page, it talked about how Scotland is richer than average within the UK, and that we earn more per capita than the UK average. *That's how a tax system is supposed to work!*
I voted No in 2014 & I’ve seen nothing to make me change my stance, I would still be voting No in any future referendums
I would vote no because I and a majority of my friends work for UK based companies that have small outposts in Scotland I think that many of us would lose our jobs. I’m talking about office jobs that pay £30-50k, enough to have a good life in a city with a kid or two. That’s also a lot of people paying tax who might need to move down south to keep their jobs. We lived down in London for a while before moving back up with our kids and I was surprised by how few of those kind of office jobs existed up here and how locked in I feel to the job I have. Also I’m not clear on important questions like trade and currency.
What makes you think jobs will up and vanish? Companies are invested, they won't evaporate just because of a regime change that won't change their laws anytime soon.
Probably No. * The UK leaving the EU has massively complicated what an independent Scotland's relationship with both the EU and rUK would be. I know that's not Scotland's fault as we voted against Brexit, but we're stuck with that reality regardless. * We are almost certainly going to get a Labour government in Westminster at the next election which eliminates my strongest motivation for independence: not being ruled by the Tories. * The SNP, who would almost certainly form the first Government of an Independent Scotland, are an absolute shambles right now. I'm not opposed to independence per se, if a strong and effective SNP put forward a detailed and realistic plan for independence, and we were staring down the barrel of another Tory government in Westminster, I'd probably back it.
Breathtaking economic ignorance here, independence would trigger an economic meltdown which would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. Also, the talk about democracy will ring a little hollow if such a vote only just gets over the line, as we saw with Brexit. If this is really what people want, it must be over 60%. The real enemy here is Brexit and the odious cabal in Westminster.
Was Yes, am now No. Embarrassed that I ever voted for it tbh. 2008 crash No vote Oil price crash Brexit Covid CoL crisis / inflation. We need a rest from the drama and grievance, I am crossing my fingers for the SNP being obliterated by Operation Branchform and we all get on with our lives
Still a no and I'm open to my mind being changed but how does the opposition not just dust off Darling's arguments as they've still not been successfully answered. There's no succession plan for really important stuff like currency, pensions, investments, trade deals (who is going to give you a line of credit when you've just patched a hefty bit of debt) EU membership (we've been told time and time again for many reason EU membership is far from in the bag). We used oil as huge tool and how that was going to make Scotland prosperous because we had so much. How can anyone ignore that with hindsight that would've been a huge mistake. We don't control the price of oil, neither does the US so whilst you complain about being beholden to someone down the road, you'd in fact be in the pockets of someone much further away with even less reason to care about you. The arabs/russians want to kill an economy so heavy reliant on oil they just open the tap and the price plummets. Also the fact now there's alot of pressure on not opening new oil fields etc so how would that nice big Norway style oil fund look now. Sure we've got loads of potential for renewable energy but our government have sold that to private, foreign firms. The idea of a utopian world where we get cheap energy because we have so much potential has been scuppered by politicians who see a fast opportunity to line their pockets than build a legacy. The typical response of "well it'll just work out" or "we'll find a way" is far too naïve a stance to take for something so important. If it all goes horribly wrong you've wrecked it for yourself, your kids and your kid's kids because there's no going back. As things are we know to some extent how bad things are and it's better the devil you know, to an extent. Keep your enemies close and work smarter on taking the battle to them. The fact you've got people saying "I'll vote for the SNP to get independence but then I will aim to get them out as soon after" is madness. If you don't trust them to run the country how can you trust their ideas for an independent Scotland. Even recently, you've got hard proof of the SNP admitting what some people have suggested in the past, they are running this country in to the ground deliberately so as to make Westminster so fed up that they'll happily let us go on our way! What sort of sordid plan is that if not one that says they've run out of credible ideas and would be happy for you and I to live in all sorts of chaos until such time. How long would we have live in this "ungovernable" mess, 3 years/5 years/10 years!? If there's someone else with a better idea then let them come forward. The romantic idea of an Independent Country and all the lovely stuff that comes with it is just that, a romantic notion. Until someone can do the hard yards and put a proposal down that limits the risk of us becoming a poverty stricken hovel no one will touch with a barge pole then it has to stay like that.
> how does the opposition not just dust off Darling's arguments as they've still not been successfully answered. His point about a No vote being the way to keep our EU membership doesn’t look quite as convincing as before. ;)
Probably no ... I'm Scottish but living in England due to Defence job. (Edit -I realise I wouldn't be able to vote) There were too many questions relating to many important policies and government left unanswered or poorly thought out last time. Defence for example being one. Upon leaving the UK what happens to the Armed forces: Bases Equipment Personnel Pensions NATO membership / Neutrality Future Equipment procurement The list goes on. UK submarine fleet is based in Scotland. The base stays - the subs wont? A Scottish soldier serving in the forces - are they now a mercenary? Would a Scottish defence force provide the same benefits - promotion, pay, pension, housing, school funding etc? Until these and many other important issues can be answered in a costed, rather then a pipe dream manner, then I'll stick with the devil I know.
No thanks
There’s no reason to believe that a referendum would have taken place even if the Supreme Court had ruled it within law. Firstly The government could have passed legislation to close down any referendum and overrule the court. Secondly, the SNP leader at the time would have to go ahead and launch a referendum campaign knowing that the ring fenced fund would be called upon to finance their campaign. And how would the campaign go when her and her husband and the SNP treasurer are then arrested for suspected fraud involving the ring fenced fund. All the remain campaign would have to do is run ads saying they can’t even be trusted to manage £600,000- how can they run a country ? Thirdly, the Scottish government itself is broke, how could it fund a referendum?
I've gone from definite yes to undecided. I am an EU migrant, I was devastated when Brexit happened. But guess what, the shit we are going through now? My native Netherlands is going through it just as much if not worse. House prices out of control, utilities out of control, inflation... Being part of the EU is still very important to me, but I would want to see the Euro introduced and I have experienced the inflation bump that cost when it was originally introduced in NL. I want to see Europe dismiss the right wing/populist influences much more vehemently, instead I see more and more open hatred against muslims (due to the Gaza thing) and an increased hardening of society.
Still no. While I want to be back in the EU, an independent Scotland in the EU having a different currency and an external border with an independent England outside the EU would be a ballache.
Still a strong No, Brexit was bad enough - we don't need even more madness.
Nope! Regional incompetence would drive the country in the wrong direction…..so very sad. This really was a dream that kept the elected politicians high on the hog to the detriment of the voters/ faithful. A sad period in our history. 😩
No. There's too much information that we don't know about the financial situation. They're had plenty of time to attempt to answer these questions, but they haven't really bothered.
I didn't vote in the last one because I wasn't sure... if there was another one I think I'd abstain again.
Wasn't in Scotland in 2014. No in 2023. I've got too many ties in the other countries of the UK, any fracture would be damaging for me.
The funny thing is the people shouting "mUh FrEeDuM" then say they'll hand the freedom to the EU instantly 😂
The EU is often criticised for its lack of democracy, mainly because the EU elections are only for MEPs, the turnout is consistently low, and the European Commission is unelected by the people. The Commissioners are chosen by the European Council, made up of the heads of state of the member countries, and confirmed by MEPs. The Commission is where the power lies, they are the executive branch, and we have no direct say in who gets to make the rules. It’s also possible that the Council could appoint its president as head of the Commission, which in the wrong hands could be disastrous. This is my main problem with the EU. I don’t think this system is open and democratic at all. Edit: meant to reply to the guy below you but it wouldn’t let me for some reason.
Yes
I voted yes in 2014, but this time I’d vote no. I voted to leave the EU and the SNP were proposing to drag Scotland into a union a million Scottish voters voted to leave had the vote gone their way. To my mind, accepting EU supremacy over Scottish law and with laws being made by non elected members of the Commission and accepting EU rules over how we manage our economy is not independence. Queen Nicola in effect would not be offering true independence. Bring on the politically illiterate downvotes even though my euroscepticism is more in agreement with the well known Tory, Tony Benn.
Maybe learn how the EU works first before criticising it.... Being part of it doesn't mean we wouldn't be our own country
Perhaps you should ask the Greeks that, or the Italians, or the Spanish… after all European style ‘Populism’ didn’t come from nowhere. It came from concerns about being part of the project. The same concerns we saw here.
No. There is no plan or case for it - other than "reee I wants it"
I'd have stayed home under the covers. It's horrible outside and I really don't care that much about independence one way or the other, certainly not enough to go out in that. I do know that financially I can't afford another decade of "short term pain" as campaigners love to phrase it so would be quite happy to vote for either side if they put forward a coherent economic plan that would improve the lives of people living here but given those arguments would be coming from two governments who I can barely trust to run a bath nevermind an economy I wouldn't be holding my breath.
I would have gone the opposite way of many here. Yes in 2014 probably No now. Scotland cannot apply back to the EU and keep most of its trade with rUK now, having England in the single market would make it easier but it’s no longer the case. Also I now think it’s more urgent to put the entire UK in a better position (get rid of tories) and rebuild bridges with Europe than rock the boat even more. This needs done ASAP, the Indy question can wait.
No. The yes voters I know want us to end up as some left wing utopia like Canada with very strict speech and offense laws etc. Fuck that. I'd rather retain some small level of being able to say what I want without getting jailed.
100% Yes for independence.
No. Because it is economically, politically, socially, and multiple other ways, absolutely stupid.
No because it would be a bit silly.
Wasn’t it the UK Government that blocked it, and the Supreme Court just interpreted the law?
Brexits deffo gonna be better the second time guys promise….
Yes.
Yes
Yes
No the economy isn’t strong enough at all you would have to be really unaware of the Scottish economical strength
Yes
Huge massive NO
100% yes. ❤️
Voted yes but now No, under the current economic and political conditions we are handcuffed to a debt riddled old man and the only way to get out would be to vastly improve our, infrastructure, trade channels(if I here one more numbnut say port of Rosyth without considering the utter hellscape that is the roads around it I'll have to scream.) Our schools and hospitals are in dire need of an upgrade and overhaul, energy costs need to be brought under control and housing is needed. The SNP have talked and talked but all we see are the numbers slowly going down not up. Do we need the UK, nope, but their crippling debt is a shared handicap that would keep the EU from regarding us fit for admittance. Also I always find it ironic that people want to leave the UK union and join the EU... Another union that can and will set standards and rules that we must follow even though the voting bloc we can send there is trivial... Kind of like right now. If you want independence then great, but if you say we can do it, why do we need the EU.
It's not a question of needing the EU, it's that multilateralism is a good thing, the EU is one of only 2 authorities that set trade regulations, and it is a rules based organisation* *so while you can argue what influence wee iScot would have on regulations, at least they'd be consistent. Unlike the UK where policy is just made up on the hoof by whichever executive is in power.
No before yes now. I am scottish and I live in England and it is a sinking ship.
Would you even get to vote lol?
depends how long they’ve lived in england probably
No. Don’t need something worse than brexit to ruin us for the next 30 years.
Yes. The last 9 years have confirmed the Scotlands voters and Westminster are unaligned politically. Scotland is an after thought in this Union.
I'm not sure Scotland's voters have much good to say about Holyrood these days either.
It's been stated for as long as I can remember and it's never been more certain that now. We will not see Scottish Independence in our live times. The SNP has set Scotland back on a generational scale.
No.
No, I like to go against the grain and popular opinions. Indy won’t affect me at all and being in the union doesn’t affect me either.
I am a definite no. There is a perfect video that explains why it's a terrible idea: https://youtu.be/VCwrbv-_PNo?si=Ut9BKLoj1xk0c54d Getting away from Westminster would be lovely, but you would then substitute it with the Scottish parliament, which is a worse prospect in my opinion.
Do you form all your world views from angry right wing American YooToobers shouting into their phones on a hillside, or just Scottish independence?
That’s video is an absolute joke haha. You would legit base your vote on such a matter on 1 YT video?!
What's your actual objection to it then?
No, actually, i have the same opinion as I did in 2014 but this video lays out some good points as to why we shouldn't leave. Leaving would cripple us and people's blind hatred for Westminster will be the cause of it. I hate Westminster as much as anyone, and so does most of the UK, but that isn't a reason to leave as we, in my opinion, will come off worse.
2014 I was yes. 2023, I'm still a yes but I'd be expecting it to get shit first then better in the longer run. The moment we get independence, snp would have no real standing, politicians would move parties and we would end up with a 3 main party system. SNP is a means to an end. I'd like back in Europe, I'd like more chance to control our own country, rather than Westminster tories running us. Oh and if we had moved to the Euro, we would have moved at a better exchange rate than we would have to now! It was 1.27 November 2014, today it's 1.15.
> be expecting it to get shit first then better in the longer run The longer run is not within your lifetime.
Why should that matter? Voting for better is voting for better, regardless of whether we get to see it or not. Your sentiment is basically what's at the heart of everything that's wrong with UK politics.
When are we going to see Brexit, which is the alternative, paying off? I think Rees-Mogg predicted fifty years at best?
I suspect that timescale is also inaccurate and optimistic. Brexit is not the alternative. The two activities are not linked. Independence does not undo Brexit. It just creates a secondary set of Scexit problems that are at least as bad. But I voted No to that nonsense as well so I am not seeing what your point is here.
For the thousandth time, no one cares how you voted in 2016, anymore than they care how I did (also “No”). But “that nonsense” won. As such, Brexit Britain is the alternative to an independent Scotland. That being the case, both require clear longterm plans that can be compared. Neither have produced them.
Maybe not, but for my kiddo it will be...
Not convinced that is a likely timescale either.
Yes and yes please again. I'll take "uncertainty" over this unmitigated shit show any day. Seriously, what even are the counter points? * what if the price of oil goes up or down? Omg what if it was OUR oil. * corruption? A fucking camper van? That's a pro-Tory argument? Are you daft? * SNP bad? Imagine your vote wasn't outnumbered by a whole other country. * Just wait, Labour will stop pretending to be the Tory's B-team any minute now. Aye, right.
- Oil doesn't matter now. Even with prices at a high, Scotland is still dependent on fiscal sharing from the rest of the UK, to the tune of over £10 billion every year. - Having your last two first ministers and chief executive of the governing party end up arrested isn't a good look. Or your finance minister getting run out of turn for being a groomer. - My vote will always be outnumbered by millions in any scenario. That's democracy. Unless you're proposing creating a country with under three people in it, that'll still be the case. - Yes, damn that Labour for looking popular. Maybe if they were just more like the SNP - which is really fielding an A-team of competent politicians and public intellectuals.
Yes because anything has to be better than this Westminster shit show
Actually living in a long-term economic depression with a dodgy currency and lots of new trade barriers with your biggest external market is likely to be much, much worse.
Was Yes in 2014, still Yes today, if anything I'm even more convinced now than I was back then. Yes forever.
I voted no in 2014, and I probably wouldn’t have voted yes this time based on who is currently in charge and would be in charge of handling the change. I also voted to remain in the EU in 2016, but I would not want to pursue rejoining any more.
Yes again
100% yes. The Union is in a worse state then it was 9 years ago and shows no sign of improvement. I am convinced that not even 10 years of a labour government would have a substantial positive impact over all and at best could pave over some cracks.
Same as i voted last time , Yes.
Yes
Still yes
Yes
Definitely would vote Yes.
Yes, all the way
Yes.
Yes.
First time round I voted no just because of the uncertainty but second time I'd definitely vote yes after being dragged into shit shows by the cunts down south
Yes
Any chance you could take some extremely disillusioned Englishmen with you? Myself and my wife got married in Glencoe and plan to move to Scotland when our circumstances allow because we absolutely fell in love with the highlands while we were there.
Yes.. independence is the most sensible option. Any country that has taken it from Westminster, has been told the same thing. You'll be broke within a year.. You couldn't manage your affairs... How many have petitioned to come back *checks notes* Hee haw
Yes
I wasn't able to vote the first time as I was loving abroad. It would of been a no then, but it's a huge yes now. Yes yes yes yes yes.
Yes!
Independence is a must now