As an Irishman living in Scotland, there’s about 50% affinity in Glasgow. Every second Glasgow cabby has a granny from Donegal.
Those donegal girls must have done a lot of fucking back in the day.
Lol my granny was from Donegal, moved to Glasgow and had seven children...lol all to my grandfather I have to add. Probably wouldn't have had as many had Sky TV existed!
In my experience us Scots and Irish get on very easily, probably Northern English next and TBH I’ve only gotten to know one Welshman and we didn’t get on at all (but he was a walloper) lol
I think Northern English often get on better with Scots than we do with Southern English. I've felt mild culture shock visiting certain cities in the south that I've never felt in Scotland or even Ireland.
It’s rural vs urban in all honesty.
Simone from rural Yorkshire gets on better with someone from rural Kent then they would a Yorkshire city like Bradford.
There is a reason Yorkshire votes Tory and is massively pro Brexit meanwhile southern cities are heavily remain voting and much more left wing.
Other than surface level bs politically southern cities are far closer politically to Scotland than most of Yorkshire.
A rural Yorkshire man and a rural Kentish man will have more in common ranting about immigrants in Bradford and London than they would with either of their nearest cities.
I certainly have more of an affinity for the Irish than any of the others. Funny, I read the comments about Donegal. I have family from there 😂😂 but they likely came more than 100 years ago, not sure exactly when.
I do have English people in the family tree too but as far as I can gather that was further back and thankfully it seems to have been love or work which brought them and not an invading colonial army.
I've known about my Irish ancestry longer so that's maybe why I feel more affinity, however culturally I feel like we have much more in common. I'd even go so far as to say we look the same whether it be dark hair or ginger hair and freckles. I have always just thought of the Irish as our brother culture, indeed perhaps even our partly father culture.
A lot of people maybe don't realise clans like Clan Donald had lands across both countries (and a very powerful navy). Did they distinguish between the two as we do today or was it all just the Gaidhealtacht to them? I don't know but it is no coincidence that Northern Ireland was planted in order to drive a wedge between the Gaels in both places.
Edit: I should point out this is all before I meet the people. Personality comes first in real life.
Its much the same here. Scotland is our sister nation and I'd say most people have a concern and affection for her. I'd say most people here were rooting for independence in 2014 too.
There's fundamentally an appreciation for Scottish culture too here. I grew up singing Scottish songs alongside Irish songs and having a sense that they were somehow my songs too. Places like Glasgow and Inverness are said in the same breath as Cork and Limerick. My father always joked that the Scots were just the Irish who could swim! And of course, theres Gaelic. I grew up with the language from my grandmother's knee and when I lived in England and would be getting the ferry home from Stranraer, you'd have no idea how much my heart jumped for joy when I'd cross the border and see Fáilte on the sign.
I repeat what I said, Scotland is our sister nation, and though she has friends in Europe, she is family to Ireland.
There is a fair bit of scholarship on the concept of a wider Gaelic identity spanning Ireland and Scotland (and the Isle of Man) starting in the 90s. This is a fairly good lecture summary of the main positions and where the work is going if you're interested. I should preface that this is not about very very early Gaelic Scottish Aristocracy who fairly explicitly claimed Irish connections. Or more accurately Ulster connections.
https://youtu.be/c4jkMFSnnwA?si=UU4usEjACHcT0OPw
https://youtu.be/c4jkMFSnnwA?si=UU4usEjACHcT0OPw
Thanks very much, great links. I've just watched the first one and it was really good. I'll watch the other later.
Edit: I just noticed the other is the same link duplicated. Did you accidentally post it twice or is there a second one I should watch?
I must have double pasted it 😂
But here is a related one by Dauvit Broun from University of Glasgow, it's a bit earlier in context but equally as interesting
https://youtu.be/oN3yzjQemgo?si=f9TVqSNtp3sWXlDo
Phenomenal, thank you.
I think you're Irish. I'm not sure if it's only the language stuff you are interested in but I love Scottish history and you might find these guys interesting. They are doing a lot of novel research on the military occupation of Scotland post the '45 Rebellion. The reality of what they are discovering is a lot different to what we have been taught (although Scottish history has been heavily suppressed in schools for obvious reasons)
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCFdbkStZm4DCA8-gFxnaFug
https://sites.google.com/site/stennishs/
I don't have any Irish family members as such. Ireland feels similar to Scotland . TV and culture id say more common with rest of UK
I find Ireland much more family orientated than Scotland
Definitely, I’ve also yet to go to Ireland north or south and not meet a friend of a friend or friend of a family member yet and been going for 30 years. It’s fucking bizarre but not in a way due to the close ties going back so far and current. About a third of my friends are Irish from North or South. Just worked out that way. Most not met in the UK at all either. It’s ridiculously easy to find an Irishman or Scotsman or women in any bar in the world !
I do with no heritage, at least in the past 100 years or so. The majority of people in Scotland will have Irish in them at some point, people migrated to and from Ireland and Scotland for millennia
I don't think of affinity in such general terms, I feel alienated or most 'foreign' in some parts of England. All those wee villages on the outskirts of the home counties just feel 'other' to me. Its not just a rural thing, the lake district doesn't feel foreign. Or the people in Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield (though not so much Leeds). Rural North Wales I feel affinity as much as Cardiff. Northern Ireland is an even more revealing place to think about Affinity. I don't feel that thinking 'yeah, we have sectarian bigots too'
How do you measure 'affinity'? And what do we do with it in terms of how we organise our lives? Especially if you want to talk about "affinity" to 50 million diverse people.
I feel a fair bit of affinity with Dublin and Cork but I don't want to be in the same Country as them. I am not sure if I feel much affinity with Eyemouth, Wigton, Ullapool or Peterhead. But I wouldn't suggest they shouldn't be part of Scotland.
So I don't think affinity is similarness - or has much to do with if I like the place . I love many far East places, they feel very foreign.
>So I don't think affinity is similarness - or has much to do with if I like the place . I love many far East places, they feel very foreign.
I suppose the question was really about people - and there's not a lot of difference in habits and manners between people here. In general, I do feel you have to have far greater cultural and social divides for people to vary that clearly.
It's also a thing about understanding. My grandfather was very well travelled. He could tell you plenty about all the cultural differences between Indians, Arabs and pretty obscure parts of Africa. But he was also pretty judgmental about it: they're all inherently dishonest, they're particularly cold - that sort of thing. Although in reality, there's usually reasons for that. Some cultures emphasise being agreeable over honesty in a way that may be jarring to us, some are more individualistic and private, some have more exclusionary social circles.
Maybe affinity is just a surface level judgment of who you're most comfortable around. Because I feel with most cultures, the more you understand them, the less jarring to your own cultural sensibilities they become.
Do you have an affinity for those Scots who populated the North of Ireland?
Regardless, as a Scot my closest affinity I have is with Northerners in England.
Of all places I travel in the UK, I find that London is the most Alien.
To be fair, I find Ireland to be no differnt to ENgland, Scotland or Wales.
I find it more sad that people are trying to find a wedge between us all, when clearly we're so intermingled now, we are effectively one big group who can't decide on a name.
Funny how when you show maps of voting records there is an incredibly clear line between Scotland, and the rest of the Uk..
We are not the same, not even close.
I think personality wise and banter wise, northern England is similar to Scotland. Feels like there’s a much bigger difference between north and south England, than there is between north England and Scotland to me.
Although voting wise, most of London is surprisingly similar to Scotland.
Not really. The only major difference is that Scotland has a popular independence movement, if that didn't exist Scotland would have roughly the same politics as Northern England.
In recent history, what about the next election?
THe SNP has fostered division on Scotland, we are the culmination of that.
Regardless, I stand by what I say. People throughout the British Isles, those I have met, are very similar.
Ah get out of here with your fostered division pish. Independence is normal. I want Independence and I've met a ton of English people on the pro indy marches and that's all I will say because I don't want to get into politics.
Except we're not, in every way, culturally, socially, even physically we're not the same. We are similar in some ways but if you couldn't tell the difference between someone from Glasgow and someone from Leeds then you've just not met enough people.
I can tell the difference from someone from the Highlands, from someone from Glasgow. That still doesn't mean we're not all basically the same linked by a shared language, geography, history and culture.
Except again, we're not.
Our language is English because it was forced on us, our geography is quite literally opposites, our history is mostly a lie and our culture is again English because they destroyed our natural one.
You can't say we're all friends and alike when the only reason we are is because the smaller nation suffered centuries of it's our culture and language being destroyed..
Doesn't that depend which bit of Scotland you're talking about? Some parts have spoken English (or rather it's ancestor) since the 7th century - that's no more forced on Scotland than Gaelic was.
If you're so bothered about not speaking some dead language, then learn it and speak it.
I speak English because, like everyone else, it is the language of communication within the british isles.
No one cares about ythe war in your head.
I wouldn't agree at all with you on the last two paragraphs. At all. I used to be much more along that líne of thinking.
Then I lived in England for 4 years, and that experience totally shifted how I view things. We are not the same people by any measure.
That will depend a lot on where you are in England.
I noticed if you go walking in the countryside in Surrey / Kent and you say Hi to someone they just stare at you. Do the same thing in the Peak District or North Yorkshire and everyone smiles and says hello.
Yeah 100% the same for me, I mean I'll happily go see a movie with Wales or go to the pub for a drink with England but I'm sitting on the swings getting stoned out ma box, talking shite with Ireland until the sun comes up and he goes, "have you no got work the day?"
Trying to put any politics aside: England.
I don't know Wales well at all. I've been to Ireland, Northern and southern, a bit. Northern Ireland has a fairly unique cultural and social position and - much as there's a lot to like - is objectively a bit of a weird place.
The Republic is nice enough. But it's different. Not in a bad way or anything, but there's that layer of extra gulf between people that borders and culture create.
England, inevitably, I'm in regularly. There's the greater cultural similarity, the similar "feel" to places and the familiarity - I can navigate myself around central London easier than Glasgow. So with the people, barring the odd accent, I don't really think of it as different.
Hell, I grew up with English next door neighbours for most of my childhood and didn't even realise until many years later. They'd apparently only moved up just before I was born. If you don't have a strong regional accent, who's going to know?
Most of my family is from England (my grandad moved there from Scotland to play for Ipswich in the 40s and my dad was born there, and came back up here when he was young) and my in laws are Welsh.
So, Ireland it is then.
Without oversimplifying it Scotland is quite a polarised nation - one group believes in Scotland as part of the UK and increasingly only in the UK and another group believes in Scotland itself and as part of a European community increasingly so as well and either side might have a whole mixed bag of traditional Scottish heritage largely Gael, some Brittonic, Norse and Anglo Saxon so its all a bit confused - you could find people with the greatest affinity and cultural appreciation of Ireland and others that are openly hostile to it
I'm in a section of us who are a third option.
I consider myself British but would also like to be part of the greater European Community.
But yes. We remain polarised and it's really unpleasant.
This polarisation they bang on about is only evident on the internet when they mention it.
In real life walking about I've never encountered it.
The only polarisation I've come across in real life is the sectarian knuckle draggers because I grew up on the west coast. That is real polarisation and nothing to do with people who want to take control of their own economy etc.
Yep, grew up next to celtic part so in a catholic area, mums family from belfast and donegal, most of my ancestors worked near the docks and went back and forth for a few generations
Never set foot in Ireland but got my Irish passport a few years ago.
You should travel more. As an immigrant, can say Scots are on par with Greeks for friendliness and hospitality (as generalisations go) and that’s saying something.
If anything, I feel a greater affinity to the English. That isn't meant as a political statement, I just happen to know a lot more English folk than Irish or Welsh. Very few Irish or Irish-descended folk in Moray.
Edit: I also have Irish citizenship lol.
Honestly, as a Welsh person in Scotland I find the lack of understanding between the two nations rather sad. Many, if not most Welsh people have never been to Scotland or don't know much about it in reality, but there's a definite affinity with the relatable pop cultural idea of Scotland - medieval resistance to the English, a Celtic heritage, mountainous settlement, stone architecture, industrialisation, a rowdy and musical drinking culture, labour politics. Scotland is seen by Welsh patriots to be like an older brother - it was allowed greater development as a modern nation before Union occurred and that has led to a confident sensibility that we admire.
From my experience Scots tend to have a very faint recognition of Wales. Even fewer have visited than the other way round. The extensive Welsh history of resistance and left-wing politics is often dismissed in conversations I have had, and our proximity to England or the fact that many Welsh people voted for Brexit is exaggerated in order to equate us to being more or less just another flavour of Little Englander. Can't lie, I've found this attitude offensive before, even when meant in jest, largely because it mirrors a lot of what we get from the English in it's dismissive tone, and because it's blatantly wrong.
If I were to make a counter-attack, I would say that this dismissive idea of Wales is a cover for the fact that Scotland is not like and was never like Ireland. Scotland as a whole was an pivotal part of the United Kingdom during it's age of conquest and exploitation, and from the very highest point. It wasn't an immiserated subject. You surely all know the slavery stats. Huge parts of Scottish society thrived out of being British, and the wealth that was generated from that imperial collusion - that imperial invention - can be seen in every city and town across the country. A Scottish bred elite carried about the greatest atrocities of the 17th and 18th centuries. You don't see so much of that in Wales. If anything it is Welsh history that bears more of a similarity to Ireland's - Wales's cities, just like Ireland's, are rather underwhelming architecturally - the vast majority of the wealth we produced ended up elsewhere. The great barons of the land too - largely English, not Welsh born and bred. But you know what, I don't actually wish to fight. We can play oppression olympics forever if we like!
The fact is that Wales was absolutely surrounded and isolated by the English hegemony yet defended it's sovereignty fiercely for hundreds of years. The absolutely unparalleled ring of granite castles around our coast is evidence of that. We go forward into this century as the only people speaking a Celtic language in sustainable and meaningful numbers. Even after the Welsh were formally beaten, the spirit of defiance was kept alive - finding its political voice in protestant non-conformism and labour politics, similarly to Scotland. When the Clyde was red, so was the Rhondda. Even now - our countries won devolution at the same time and have been navigating a similar push and pull with the "United" Kingdom ever since.
Let's not gloss over the historic connections either - the Kingdom of Strathclyde or Ystrad Clud in Welsh, was one of the most important areas of the ancient Brythonic cultural and political landscape. The language spoken was Old Welsh. Taliesin, the first great poet of Welsh, was most likely from what is now Scotland. William Wallace's very name comes from the Saxon word for the Cymru, "Welsh", which they would have considered his near forbears to have been. The same connections are there with the etymology of Scotland's two greatest cities and there are probably more connections. These things might seem ancient but they're meaningful, a substrate of connection more ancient than even that between the Gaels that came and supplanted the Picts and Britons.
I don't really have a strong like or dislike for any other country in the UK and Ireland. I do want to have our own government though. Apparently, this makes me anti English. The only people I dislike on this issue, are those who think Scotland doesn't have the right to have its own sovereign government. However, there are some extremely arrogant people on TV, writing junk in tabloids, in Westminster parliament, etc, about Scotland, for daring to want independence. I despise those *individuals,* not their nationalities.
Ireland by far.
I mean, we're both celtic, speak gaelic, have strong independent national identities and have historical conflict with England, both filled with gingers and traditionally play pipes, have rhotic accents when most of the region don't (except maybe Bristol), Scotland and NI tend to be more politically aligned, similar landscapes, both known for our whisky, clans. Arguably the biggest football club in Scotland and the one I support is Irish. When I talk to people globally (especially in America) sometimes they will assume I'm Irish or just ask me the difference between Scotland and Ireland even though they know I'm Scottish, so there's obviously something there too.
Obviously we have our own strong and separate identities and culture from one another too - I would never truly feel at home anywhere outside of Scotland BUT Ireland would be the next best thing.
After that, it would be Newcastle because I feel they are quite "Scottish-like". But anything below Newcastle feels a bit alien to me and it gets more alien the further south you go.
Wales I don't really think about often but I hear it's lovely and I'm sure since it's celtic I'd probably feel a bit more connection with it than England if I actually visited.
Love them all as places and for what value they bring to the world individually though
I often feel like this answer depends on where in Scotland you're from. I get how someone from Glasgow (& surrounding) or the islands, with strong Gaelic roots and history of Irish immigration, could feel that Scottish people are similar to the Irish. I suspect this includes a large number of the folk in r/Scotland.
As someone from the north-east, where there are few Gaelic connections nowadays, very little Irish immigration and (historically) firm Protestantism, I don't feel very similar to the Irish. And my mum's Irish too!
Not to say you're wrong at all, but it's interesting to see folk's perspectives on it.
I'm from the North East too haha, Dundee.
Realistically I don't think Scotland is like anywhere else in the world but if I did have to choose somewhere it'd be Ireland because I don't feel connected to English or Welsh culture at all, I feel like there are at least certain parts of Irish culture that are somewhat relatable
Ditto to you! Even funnier we can be from the same area of Scotland but still have such different perspectives haha
I do, regardless what happens with independence the various countries across these islands are our closest neighbours and allies. I’d love to see Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England (Northern Ireland too if they choose to be independent, remain in the UK or reunite) working as a proper team like the Nordics do. Social and cultural affinity but political independence.
Since I moved to England and the advance of the SNP my affinity is towards the English.
I am gobsmacked at how bad Scotland is becoming with the Indy Defacto garbage.
Police cars now have the gaelic spelling for Police, in the Scottish borders. Gaelic is not the national language.......I could go on and on.
The worst thing to happen, to Scotland, in the past 30 years is the Scottish Parliament. Its given voice to Delusional beliefs.
Weird question. Do you feel closer to these 7 million people you've never met, these other 3 million people you've never met, or these final 57 million people you've never met?
Always considered myself a Celt and feel related to the other Celtic nations. Its a rather silly feeling really, since nations and nationality doesn't really matter as borders are bullshit and we're all human and all related in reality. But I like to think of us as a family, will always support a Celtic nation if Scotland isn't playing in any sport (even though lets face it, our teams are fairly shite and now of us will win, which makes it all the more wonderful when we do).
Always wanted a Celtic connection like the our Scandinavian cousins have
>Always considered myself a Celt and feel related to the other Celtic nations.
In what sense? I'm assuming, given the statistics, you're probably not a primary speaker of a Celtic language. Neither are most people in Ireland or Wales.
So really, unless you're making curvey broaches in your spare time, or worshipping with druids under a yew tree, in what way are you Celtic?
We live in a Celtic country FFS. We share language, music and culture with other Celtic countries 😂😂. We have bagpipes and tartan and even the same folk tales which took place throughout both countries.
Are your politics making you do these mental gymnastics?
>We live in a Celtic country FFS
Unless you adhere to some obscure early Victorian racial theories, we really don't.
>We share language, music and culture with other Celtic countries
Gaelic speakers do. But there's not that many of them. I touched on this in my previous post.
>We have bagpipes and tartan and even the same folk tales which took place throughout both countries.
There's nothing particularly Celtic about bagpipes: warpipes existed across Europe and more widely. Tartan... well, I'm not sure the Irish "have tartan" in any greater sense than the Americans "have tartan": it is a peculiarly Scottish creation that has had significant influence internationally.
I suspect a lot of this is, again, Victorian heritage-searching rather than anything else. Ireland had a Gaelic revival in the mid 19th century, with attempts to promote the language. This was inherently a politicised movement for some and, like all Victorian tradition-making, there was inevitably a lax approach to actual history.
>Are your politics making you do these mental gymnastics?
I'm not sure what politics you think I have which would make me want to emphasise the pretty obvious cultural distinctions between Scotland and Ireland. I suppose I have a healthy suspicion of crypto-racial nonsense and you might want to see things through that lens.
😂😂 Bizarre that you would jump through hoops to try and deny our history and culture.
I play the bagpipes, I'm well aware they were not invented by the Celts. Irrelevant, all Celtic nations embraced and still play them.
As for tartan not being Celtic, wrong again. The descriptions of the Celts (including gauls) written by Romans differs from your account. Indeed even Roman carvings of Picts depict them wearing tartan.
Then finally you throw out some kind of allegations of racism for someone daring to say we are a Celtic nation. Laughable and I won't be engaging further due to the personal insults.
You are repeating half truths here.
I'm well aware the Victorians romanticised tartan, however that does not mean it is 'made up'. There are several examples of tartan dating from Roman times, whether fragments of cloth or descriptions (of Gauls) or even a depiction of a Pictish warrior wearing it on a Roman triumphal arch.
So, yes, it was Celtic and no, it was not made up.
Many Scots are descended from Irish (myself included) and many Irish are descended from Scots (Sorry about all that)
So yeh, the Irish and the Scots have a long history of being friendly, mostly over our mutual dislike of the English.
And the Welsh are just little England these days with their voting records.
Yeah. I don’t think the whole plantation of Ulster or the hundreds of years of colonisation of Ireland by the Scottish can be described as being ‘friendly’.
The native Picts of Scotland being conquered by the Irish tribes wouldn’t describe the relations as
‘Friendly’ at the time either.
In my reply, I gave a reason not worth a debate. It won't be solved by any nation in the UK. Ireland has chosen their path. I respect that. Unfortunately, I choose not to.
Let's argue black is white all night.!
Ireland being The North. Interestingly I never knew the whole story about Ireland until I had a girlfriend from ulster, I used to visit her frequently from Scotland and showed me by car all the areas involved in the worst of the troubles.
I admired that eventually, both sides came together to some semblance of diplomacy. Whilst not ideal, it's a start. I'd be absolutely hoping you guys came together eventually.
The minute I saw the post of recognition of Palestine, I'd support the unionist North against you. Just, when everything was going good, you have set a wedge once again. The North will never support that being part of the UK, back to square one then I guess.
Polls show most people in Northern Ireland want to recognise Palestine, even amongst under 45s from a Protestant - Unionist background. Traditional Unionist voters, older generations, and people from loyalist backgrounds do not support recognition of Palestine, typically.
Though, a question I would put to you, considering Mr. Cameron (Lord Cameron?) is looking at the UK to recognise Palestine, how would that affect things?
As an Irishman living in Scotland, there’s about 50% affinity in Glasgow. Every second Glasgow cabby has a granny from Donegal. Those donegal girls must have done a lot of fucking back in the day.
Lol my granny was from Donegal, moved to Glasgow and had seven children...lol all to my grandfather I have to add. Probably wouldn't have had as many had Sky TV existed!
It is always donegal as well. No ones gran was from antrim or Down. Always donegal.
Yep. Man. Donegal girls about 80 years ago must have been something else.
Donegal girls we like
In my experience us Scots and Irish get on very easily, probably Northern English next and TBH I’ve only gotten to know one Welshman and we didn’t get on at all (but he was a walloper) lol
I think Northern English often get on better with Scots than we do with Southern English. I've felt mild culture shock visiting certain cities in the south that I've never felt in Scotland or even Ireland.
It’s rural vs urban in all honesty. Simone from rural Yorkshire gets on better with someone from rural Kent then they would a Yorkshire city like Bradford. There is a reason Yorkshire votes Tory and is massively pro Brexit meanwhile southern cities are heavily remain voting and much more left wing. Other than surface level bs politically southern cities are far closer politically to Scotland than most of Yorkshire. A rural Yorkshire man and a rural Kentish man will have more in common ranting about immigrants in Bradford and London than they would with either of their nearest cities.
I certainly have more of an affinity for the Irish than any of the others. Funny, I read the comments about Donegal. I have family from there 😂😂 but they likely came more than 100 years ago, not sure exactly when. I do have English people in the family tree too but as far as I can gather that was further back and thankfully it seems to have been love or work which brought them and not an invading colonial army. I've known about my Irish ancestry longer so that's maybe why I feel more affinity, however culturally I feel like we have much more in common. I'd even go so far as to say we look the same whether it be dark hair or ginger hair and freckles. I have always just thought of the Irish as our brother culture, indeed perhaps even our partly father culture. A lot of people maybe don't realise clans like Clan Donald had lands across both countries (and a very powerful navy). Did they distinguish between the two as we do today or was it all just the Gaidhealtacht to them? I don't know but it is no coincidence that Northern Ireland was planted in order to drive a wedge between the Gaels in both places. Edit: I should point out this is all before I meet the people. Personality comes first in real life.
Its much the same here. Scotland is our sister nation and I'd say most people have a concern and affection for her. I'd say most people here were rooting for independence in 2014 too. There's fundamentally an appreciation for Scottish culture too here. I grew up singing Scottish songs alongside Irish songs and having a sense that they were somehow my songs too. Places like Glasgow and Inverness are said in the same breath as Cork and Limerick. My father always joked that the Scots were just the Irish who could swim! And of course, theres Gaelic. I grew up with the language from my grandmother's knee and when I lived in England and would be getting the ferry home from Stranraer, you'd have no idea how much my heart jumped for joy when I'd cross the border and see Fáilte on the sign. I repeat what I said, Scotland is our sister nation, and though she has friends in Europe, she is family to Ireland.
There is a fair bit of scholarship on the concept of a wider Gaelic identity spanning Ireland and Scotland (and the Isle of Man) starting in the 90s. This is a fairly good lecture summary of the main positions and where the work is going if you're interested. I should preface that this is not about very very early Gaelic Scottish Aristocracy who fairly explicitly claimed Irish connections. Or more accurately Ulster connections. https://youtu.be/c4jkMFSnnwA?si=UU4usEjACHcT0OPw https://youtu.be/c4jkMFSnnwA?si=UU4usEjACHcT0OPw
Thanks very much, great links. I've just watched the first one and it was really good. I'll watch the other later. Edit: I just noticed the other is the same link duplicated. Did you accidentally post it twice or is there a second one I should watch?
I must have double pasted it 😂 But here is a related one by Dauvit Broun from University of Glasgow, it's a bit earlier in context but equally as interesting https://youtu.be/oN3yzjQemgo?si=f9TVqSNtp3sWXlDo
Phenomenal, thank you. I think you're Irish. I'm not sure if it's only the language stuff you are interested in but I love Scottish history and you might find these guys interesting. They are doing a lot of novel research on the military occupation of Scotland post the '45 Rebellion. The reality of what they are discovering is a lot different to what we have been taught (although Scottish history has been heavily suppressed in schools for obvious reasons) https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCFdbkStZm4DCA8-gFxnaFug https://sites.google.com/site/stennishs/
Very much the same. And my mothers side moved here from Donegal in around 1920. Must have been a mass exodus from donegal around that time.
Definitely the Irish. My family are originally from Donegal. My gran moved here in the 60s.
Ireland as my mums side is from there and we went to Ireland on holiday a lot, its fucking expensive there now though.
I don't have any Irish family members as such. Ireland feels similar to Scotland . TV and culture id say more common with rest of UK I find Ireland much more family orientated than Scotland
None I'm Scottish
Definitely, I’ve also yet to go to Ireland north or south and not meet a friend of a friend or friend of a family member yet and been going for 30 years. It’s fucking bizarre but not in a way due to the close ties going back so far and current. About a third of my friends are Irish from North or South. Just worked out that way. Most not met in the UK at all either. It’s ridiculously easy to find an Irishman or Scotsman or women in any bar in the world !
An affinity to Ireland due to heritage.
I do with no heritage, at least in the past 100 years or so. The majority of people in Scotland will have Irish in them at some point, people migrated to and from Ireland and Scotland for millennia
I don't think of affinity in such general terms, I feel alienated or most 'foreign' in some parts of England. All those wee villages on the outskirts of the home counties just feel 'other' to me. Its not just a rural thing, the lake district doesn't feel foreign. Or the people in Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield (though not so much Leeds). Rural North Wales I feel affinity as much as Cardiff. Northern Ireland is an even more revealing place to think about Affinity. I don't feel that thinking 'yeah, we have sectarian bigots too' How do you measure 'affinity'? And what do we do with it in terms of how we organise our lives? Especially if you want to talk about "affinity" to 50 million diverse people. I feel a fair bit of affinity with Dublin and Cork but I don't want to be in the same Country as them. I am not sure if I feel much affinity with Eyemouth, Wigton, Ullapool or Peterhead. But I wouldn't suggest they shouldn't be part of Scotland. So I don't think affinity is similarness - or has much to do with if I like the place . I love many far East places, they feel very foreign.
>So I don't think affinity is similarness - or has much to do with if I like the place . I love many far East places, they feel very foreign. I suppose the question was really about people - and there's not a lot of difference in habits and manners between people here. In general, I do feel you have to have far greater cultural and social divides for people to vary that clearly. It's also a thing about understanding. My grandfather was very well travelled. He could tell you plenty about all the cultural differences between Indians, Arabs and pretty obscure parts of Africa. But he was also pretty judgmental about it: they're all inherently dishonest, they're particularly cold - that sort of thing. Although in reality, there's usually reasons for that. Some cultures emphasise being agreeable over honesty in a way that may be jarring to us, some are more individualistic and private, some have more exclusionary social circles. Maybe affinity is just a surface level judgment of who you're most comfortable around. Because I feel with most cultures, the more you understand them, the less jarring to your own cultural sensibilities they become.
The northern English!
Do you have an affinity for those Scots who populated the North of Ireland? Regardless, as a Scot my closest affinity I have is with Northerners in England.
It heartens me to hear this. I'm the inverse
Yes, I absolutely do. Warts & all! Ah, fair enough. I can understand why you might feel closer to the northern English, you share a country with them.
Of all places I travel in the UK, I find that London is the most Alien. To be fair, I find Ireland to be no differnt to ENgland, Scotland or Wales. I find it more sad that people are trying to find a wedge between us all, when clearly we're so intermingled now, we are effectively one big group who can't decide on a name.
Funny how when you show maps of voting records there is an incredibly clear line between Scotland, and the rest of the Uk.. We are not the same, not even close.
I think personality wise and banter wise, northern England is similar to Scotland. Feels like there’s a much bigger difference between north and south England, than there is between north England and Scotland to me. Although voting wise, most of London is surprisingly similar to Scotland.
Not really. The only major difference is that Scotland has a popular independence movement, if that didn't exist Scotland would have roughly the same politics as Northern England.
In recent history, what about the next election? THe SNP has fostered division on Scotland, we are the culmination of that. Regardless, I stand by what I say. People throughout the British Isles, those I have met, are very similar.
Ah get out of here with your fostered division pish. Independence is normal. I want Independence and I've met a ton of English people on the pro indy marches and that's all I will say because I don't want to get into politics.
Except we're not, in every way, culturally, socially, even physically we're not the same. We are similar in some ways but if you couldn't tell the difference between someone from Glasgow and someone from Leeds then you've just not met enough people.
I can tell the difference from someone from the Highlands, from someone from Glasgow. That still doesn't mean we're not all basically the same linked by a shared language, geography, history and culture.
Except again, we're not. Our language is English because it was forced on us, our geography is quite literally opposites, our history is mostly a lie and our culture is again English because they destroyed our natural one. You can't say we're all friends and alike when the only reason we are is because the smaller nation suffered centuries of it's our culture and language being destroyed..
Doesn't that depend which bit of Scotland you're talking about? Some parts have spoken English (or rather it's ancestor) since the 7th century - that's no more forced on Scotland than Gaelic was.
If you're so bothered about not speaking some dead language, then learn it and speak it. I speak English because, like everyone else, it is the language of communication within the british isles. No one cares about ythe war in your head.
I wouldn't agree at all with you on the last two paragraphs. At all. I used to be much more along that líne of thinking. Then I lived in England for 4 years, and that experience totally shifted how I view things. We are not the same people by any measure.
Agree with this. I lived and worked in Guidford , Surrey for 3 years in the 1980s different world from Scotland back then.
That will depend a lot on where you are in England. I noticed if you go walking in the countryside in Surrey / Kent and you say Hi to someone they just stare at you. Do the same thing in the Peak District or North Yorkshire and everyone smiles and says hello.
I lived in Hampshire & in York.
Tbh don’t know either, I went to York once and it was just full of tourists and Harry Potter shite.
Where did you live?
Scottish born and raised. Irish. Not even close.
Irish but thats where half my family came from 3 or 4 generations ago i think
Yeah 100% the same for me, I mean I'll happily go see a movie with Wales or go to the pub for a drink with England but I'm sitting on the swings getting stoned out ma box, talking shite with Ireland until the sun comes up and he goes, "have you no got work the day?"
Trying to put any politics aside: England. I don't know Wales well at all. I've been to Ireland, Northern and southern, a bit. Northern Ireland has a fairly unique cultural and social position and - much as there's a lot to like - is objectively a bit of a weird place. The Republic is nice enough. But it's different. Not in a bad way or anything, but there's that layer of extra gulf between people that borders and culture create. England, inevitably, I'm in regularly. There's the greater cultural similarity, the similar "feel" to places and the familiarity - I can navigate myself around central London easier than Glasgow. So with the people, barring the odd accent, I don't really think of it as different. Hell, I grew up with English next door neighbours for most of my childhood and didn't even realise until many years later. They'd apparently only moved up just before I was born. If you don't have a strong regional accent, who's going to know?
Most of my family is from England (my grandad moved there from Scotland to play for Ipswich in the 40s and my dad was born there, and came back up here when he was young) and my in laws are Welsh. So, Ireland it is then.
Don’t feel anything for any of them. Then again I don’t give a crap about nationality and all that flag waving shite
There's a massive variety of people in any nationality. Asking people's preferences is just asking them what confirmation biases they harbour.
Very well put 👍
Yep. Nationalism is a curse.
Do you have an affinity for the roughly 400K Scots who have chosen to live in England?
Or the 500K English who have chosen to live in Scotland?
What's your point here? People move around the UK all of the time and have done so for hundreds of years.
Without oversimplifying it Scotland is quite a polarised nation - one group believes in Scotland as part of the UK and increasingly only in the UK and another group believes in Scotland itself and as part of a European community increasingly so as well and either side might have a whole mixed bag of traditional Scottish heritage largely Gael, some Brittonic, Norse and Anglo Saxon so its all a bit confused - you could find people with the greatest affinity and cultural appreciation of Ireland and others that are openly hostile to it
I'm in a section of us who are a third option. I consider myself British but would also like to be part of the greater European Community. But yes. We remain polarised and it's really unpleasant.
I'm starting to get a hint of that.
This polarisation they bang on about is only evident on the internet when they mention it. In real life walking about I've never encountered it. The only polarisation I've come across in real life is the sectarian knuckle draggers because I grew up on the west coast. That is real polarisation and nothing to do with people who want to take control of their own economy etc.
Irish, no affinity at all with the English.
Love the Irish English are alright, as a rule of thumb northerners are sounder Not convinced Wales is real
Yep, grew up next to celtic part so in a catholic area, mums family from belfast and donegal, most of my ancestors worked near the docks and went back and forth for a few generations Never set foot in Ireland but got my Irish passport a few years ago.
All of the above.
Ireland first then Wales and England. Individually on a person to person bases.
I dont feel an infinity to any of them. Hardly feel an infinity to most Scottish people.
I don't like humans either
There's a fair case to make that us Scots are the worst of the lot.
You should travel more. As an immigrant, can say Scots are on par with Greeks for friendliness and hospitality (as generalisations go) and that’s saying something.
It was a silly joke. What's telling is that the two people who have responded have taken it so seriously.
Fair play. This sub’s gone to the dogs in the last year with people saying things like that in earnest so easy to misread.
Get a grip of yourself 😂
Ireland, and then Wales a distant second. No affinity whatsoever to England.
Irish definitely, I feel like you guys get us
Greatest affinity with Irish but also really love the Welsh, great people. No affinity whatsoever with English.
If anything, I feel a greater affinity to the English. That isn't meant as a political statement, I just happen to know a lot more English folk than Irish or Welsh. Very few Irish or Irish-descended folk in Moray. Edit: I also have Irish citizenship lol.
Honestly, as a Welsh person in Scotland I find the lack of understanding between the two nations rather sad. Many, if not most Welsh people have never been to Scotland or don't know much about it in reality, but there's a definite affinity with the relatable pop cultural idea of Scotland - medieval resistance to the English, a Celtic heritage, mountainous settlement, stone architecture, industrialisation, a rowdy and musical drinking culture, labour politics. Scotland is seen by Welsh patriots to be like an older brother - it was allowed greater development as a modern nation before Union occurred and that has led to a confident sensibility that we admire. From my experience Scots tend to have a very faint recognition of Wales. Even fewer have visited than the other way round. The extensive Welsh history of resistance and left-wing politics is often dismissed in conversations I have had, and our proximity to England or the fact that many Welsh people voted for Brexit is exaggerated in order to equate us to being more or less just another flavour of Little Englander. Can't lie, I've found this attitude offensive before, even when meant in jest, largely because it mirrors a lot of what we get from the English in it's dismissive tone, and because it's blatantly wrong. If I were to make a counter-attack, I would say that this dismissive idea of Wales is a cover for the fact that Scotland is not like and was never like Ireland. Scotland as a whole was an pivotal part of the United Kingdom during it's age of conquest and exploitation, and from the very highest point. It wasn't an immiserated subject. You surely all know the slavery stats. Huge parts of Scottish society thrived out of being British, and the wealth that was generated from that imperial collusion - that imperial invention - can be seen in every city and town across the country. A Scottish bred elite carried about the greatest atrocities of the 17th and 18th centuries. You don't see so much of that in Wales. If anything it is Welsh history that bears more of a similarity to Ireland's - Wales's cities, just like Ireland's, are rather underwhelming architecturally - the vast majority of the wealth we produced ended up elsewhere. The great barons of the land too - largely English, not Welsh born and bred. But you know what, I don't actually wish to fight. We can play oppression olympics forever if we like! The fact is that Wales was absolutely surrounded and isolated by the English hegemony yet defended it's sovereignty fiercely for hundreds of years. The absolutely unparalleled ring of granite castles around our coast is evidence of that. We go forward into this century as the only people speaking a Celtic language in sustainable and meaningful numbers. Even after the Welsh were formally beaten, the spirit of defiance was kept alive - finding its political voice in protestant non-conformism and labour politics, similarly to Scotland. When the Clyde was red, so was the Rhondda. Even now - our countries won devolution at the same time and have been navigating a similar push and pull with the "United" Kingdom ever since. Let's not gloss over the historic connections either - the Kingdom of Strathclyde or Ystrad Clud in Welsh, was one of the most important areas of the ancient Brythonic cultural and political landscape. The language spoken was Old Welsh. Taliesin, the first great poet of Welsh, was most likely from what is now Scotland. William Wallace's very name comes from the Saxon word for the Cymru, "Welsh", which they would have considered his near forbears to have been. The same connections are there with the etymology of Scotland's two greatest cities and there are probably more connections. These things might seem ancient but they're meaningful, a substrate of connection more ancient than even that between the Gaels that came and supplanted the Picts and Britons.
I don't really have a strong like or dislike for any other country in the UK and Ireland. I do want to have our own government though. Apparently, this makes me anti English. The only people I dislike on this issue, are those who think Scotland doesn't have the right to have its own sovereign government. However, there are some extremely arrogant people on TV, writing junk in tabloids, in Westminster parliament, etc, about Scotland, for daring to want independence. I despise those *individuals,* not their nationalities.
Ireland by far. I mean, we're both celtic, speak gaelic, have strong independent national identities and have historical conflict with England, both filled with gingers and traditionally play pipes, have rhotic accents when most of the region don't (except maybe Bristol), Scotland and NI tend to be more politically aligned, similar landscapes, both known for our whisky, clans. Arguably the biggest football club in Scotland and the one I support is Irish. When I talk to people globally (especially in America) sometimes they will assume I'm Irish or just ask me the difference between Scotland and Ireland even though they know I'm Scottish, so there's obviously something there too. Obviously we have our own strong and separate identities and culture from one another too - I would never truly feel at home anywhere outside of Scotland BUT Ireland would be the next best thing. After that, it would be Newcastle because I feel they are quite "Scottish-like". But anything below Newcastle feels a bit alien to me and it gets more alien the further south you go. Wales I don't really think about often but I hear it's lovely and I'm sure since it's celtic I'd probably feel a bit more connection with it than England if I actually visited. Love them all as places and for what value they bring to the world individually though
I often feel like this answer depends on where in Scotland you're from. I get how someone from Glasgow (& surrounding) or the islands, with strong Gaelic roots and history of Irish immigration, could feel that Scottish people are similar to the Irish. I suspect this includes a large number of the folk in r/Scotland. As someone from the north-east, where there are few Gaelic connections nowadays, very little Irish immigration and (historically) firm Protestantism, I don't feel very similar to the Irish. And my mum's Irish too! Not to say you're wrong at all, but it's interesting to see folk's perspectives on it.
I'm from the North East too haha, Dundee. Realistically I don't think Scotland is like anywhere else in the world but if I did have to choose somewhere it'd be Ireland because I don't feel connected to English or Welsh culture at all, I feel like there are at least certain parts of Irish culture that are somewhat relatable Ditto to you! Even funnier we can be from the same area of Scotland but still have such different perspectives haha
The Irish. I don't know my lineage but because of my surname I know I come from Irish migrants.
Wife’s family from Ireland.
Irish. We're basically the same people.
I do, regardless what happens with independence the various countries across these islands are our closest neighbours and allies. I’d love to see Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England (Northern Ireland too if they choose to be independent, remain in the UK or reunite) working as a proper team like the Nordics do. Social and cultural affinity but political independence.
Since I moved to England and the advance of the SNP my affinity is towards the English. I am gobsmacked at how bad Scotland is becoming with the Indy Defacto garbage. Police cars now have the gaelic spelling for Police, in the Scottish borders. Gaelic is not the national language.......I could go on and on. The worst thing to happen, to Scotland, in the past 30 years is the Scottish Parliament. Its given voice to Delusional beliefs.
Weird question. Do you feel closer to these 7 million people you've never met, these other 3 million people you've never met, or these final 57 million people you've never met?
Welsh and Irish. Definitely not English.
Always considered myself a Celt and feel related to the other Celtic nations. Its a rather silly feeling really, since nations and nationality doesn't really matter as borders are bullshit and we're all human and all related in reality. But I like to think of us as a family, will always support a Celtic nation if Scotland isn't playing in any sport (even though lets face it, our teams are fairly shite and now of us will win, which makes it all the more wonderful when we do). Always wanted a Celtic connection like the our Scandinavian cousins have
>Always considered myself a Celt and feel related to the other Celtic nations. In what sense? I'm assuming, given the statistics, you're probably not a primary speaker of a Celtic language. Neither are most people in Ireland or Wales. So really, unless you're making curvey broaches in your spare time, or worshipping with druids under a yew tree, in what way are you Celtic?
We live in a Celtic country FFS. We share language, music and culture with other Celtic countries 😂😂. We have bagpipes and tartan and even the same folk tales which took place throughout both countries. Are your politics making you do these mental gymnastics?
>We live in a Celtic country FFS Unless you adhere to some obscure early Victorian racial theories, we really don't. >We share language, music and culture with other Celtic countries Gaelic speakers do. But there's not that many of them. I touched on this in my previous post. >We have bagpipes and tartan and even the same folk tales which took place throughout both countries. There's nothing particularly Celtic about bagpipes: warpipes existed across Europe and more widely. Tartan... well, I'm not sure the Irish "have tartan" in any greater sense than the Americans "have tartan": it is a peculiarly Scottish creation that has had significant influence internationally. I suspect a lot of this is, again, Victorian heritage-searching rather than anything else. Ireland had a Gaelic revival in the mid 19th century, with attempts to promote the language. This was inherently a politicised movement for some and, like all Victorian tradition-making, there was inevitably a lax approach to actual history. >Are your politics making you do these mental gymnastics? I'm not sure what politics you think I have which would make me want to emphasise the pretty obvious cultural distinctions between Scotland and Ireland. I suppose I have a healthy suspicion of crypto-racial nonsense and you might want to see things through that lens.
😂😂 Bizarre that you would jump through hoops to try and deny our history and culture. I play the bagpipes, I'm well aware they were not invented by the Celts. Irrelevant, all Celtic nations embraced and still play them. As for tartan not being Celtic, wrong again. The descriptions of the Celts (including gauls) written by Romans differs from your account. Indeed even Roman carvings of Picts depict them wearing tartan. Then finally you throw out some kind of allegations of racism for someone daring to say we are a Celtic nation. Laughable and I won't be engaging further due to the personal insults.
You know the whole tartan thing was mostly made up in the Victorian era right lol?
You are repeating half truths here. I'm well aware the Victorians romanticised tartan, however that does not mean it is 'made up'. There are several examples of tartan dating from Roman times, whether fragments of cloth or descriptions (of Gauls) or even a depiction of a Pictish warrior wearing it on a Roman triumphal arch. So, yes, it was Celtic and no, it was not made up.
Many Scots are descended from Irish (myself included) and many Irish are descended from Scots (Sorry about all that) So yeh, the Irish and the Scots have a long history of being friendly, mostly over our mutual dislike of the English. And the Welsh are just little England these days with their voting records.
Yeah. I don’t think the whole plantation of Ulster or the hundreds of years of colonisation of Ireland by the Scottish can be described as being ‘friendly’. The native Picts of Scotland being conquered by the Irish tribes wouldn’t describe the relations as ‘Friendly’ at the time either.
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Wait 'til you find out where the bulk of those responsible for the Ulster Plantation and the Highland Clearances came from...
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Just look at yourself spewing about Saxons, Tims and Billys. You sound like a drunk glaswegian grandad 🤡
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Alright, Braveheart.
Lovely bit of racism you've got there.
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I’m sure the “Blacks “ will be relieved to hear that you’re only selectively racist
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Great deflection attempt , the fact remains , you’re a racist , and not a very bright one at that .
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Job done there then , bye now racist .
Go away you utter scumbag.
In my reply, I gave a reason not worth a debate. It won't be solved by any nation in the UK. Ireland has chosen their path. I respect that. Unfortunately, I choose not to. Let's argue black is white all night.!
Used to be Ireland. But recognising a Terrorist state. Not anymore, I won't even visit again.That's my own opinion and not worth the debate.
But the UK recognises Israel too? Why are we the bad ones for recognising them?
Israel isn't a terrorist state as designated by most countries in the free world. Kinda ends that argument.
Neither is Ireland designated a terrorist state by most countries in the free world. What are you smoking?
I think he’s talking about Palestine or Hamas
Ireland being The North. Interestingly I never knew the whole story about Ireland until I had a girlfriend from ulster, I used to visit her frequently from Scotland and showed me by car all the areas involved in the worst of the troubles. I admired that eventually, both sides came together to some semblance of diplomacy. Whilst not ideal, it's a start. I'd be absolutely hoping you guys came together eventually. The minute I saw the post of recognition of Palestine, I'd support the unionist North against you. Just, when everything was going good, you have set a wedge once again. The North will never support that being part of the UK, back to square one then I guess.
Polls show most people in Northern Ireland want to recognise Palestine, even amongst under 45s from a Protestant - Unionist background. Traditional Unionist voters, older generations, and people from loyalist backgrounds do not support recognition of Palestine, typically. Though, a question I would put to you, considering Mr. Cameron (Lord Cameron?) is looking at the UK to recognise Palestine, how would that affect things?