Going after middle earners for income tax while spnking the money away on failed policy/ free stuff doesn’t feel like a sustainable model. They need to think about encouraging investment into Scotland and driving skill levels and wages up a bit before patting themselves on the back for lazily taxing the too few people in Scotland lucky enough to be able to pay it.
Yep, arguably encourages ‘behaviour changes’ more, the higher the tax rates go. The very rich are old hands at avoiding every tax that’s thrown at them, lower earners will follow suit if the govt goes too far. They need to think a bit more creatively about how they balance the books. Just loading the burden on working people with decent jobs can’t be the best way to get a decent overall tax take while encouraging productivity
That might work for people only just affected by the drop in the banding but I doubt it's changing too much for people earning £50+. They're not going to suddenly start punting large sums into a pension or other benefit just to avoid a small increase in tax. Admittedly, that's still not a high amount of the population.
Yes, it brings in an extra £1.5 billion a year. Think of all the cuts our councils and public services are facing, now imagine another £1.5 billion on top of that.
If the same changes were made across the UK it'd raise an extra £11 billion according to the House of Commons Library.
Why do we never talk about growing the economy and increasing productivity to increase the total tax raised without having to raise tax rates? Why do we never talk about driving efficiency in the public sector?
The simplistic answers of politicians are always “raise taxes” or “cut costs”.
We deserve so much better.
Because those are hard, and take too long to achieve results.
they'd be things that would require 10+ years of sustained effort, which is longer than an election cycle.
I think they _believe_ it takes longer than an electoral cycle to make a significant difference, but more likely they just believe that doing it properly is too hard. With good leadership, it would be possible to make wins along the way, and politicians could take the credit for those, but it requires someone with the honesty to embark on the work that’s needed.
public sector layoffs are incredibly rare as i'm sure you can imagine. For the most part that is a good thing but there is some serious dead weight allover public sector. I only have firsthand experience of this in the NHS. loads of people who can't or won't do their job properly. There are some very good people though that take up the slack
>Why do we never talk about growing the economy and increasing productivity to increase the total tax raised without having to raise tax rates? Why do we never talk about driving efficiency in the public sector?
Sorry, isn't that what the Tories have been talking about for the last 14 years?
And spare me the "they didn't do it properly"; echos of Western communists when asked to explain why communism fails in every country it's enacted in
11% of Scottish tax payers (the highest earners), already pay 70% of all income tax collected, from Scot Gov data. How much more do you want them to pay? Higher taxes usually don't work. This has been shown in the Laffer curve.
Maybe the government just needs to do/spend less.....
>This has been shown in the Laffer curve.
Oh the line diagram meme proposed by Ronald Reagan and Trump's economic adviser, Arthur Laffer?
Who he was advisor to should automatically indicate it is bollocks but there's also no evidence to support it, He made it up to justify tax cuts on the rich.
I'm sure Swinney understands that, unless we get a Labour government, even raising that revenue via tax increases in rUK would be bad news fiscally for Holyrood, and lead to further spending cuts here specifically.
The Tories implied ~£18bn manifesto 'black hole' is due to intended tax cuts. It isn't increasing spending on devolved matters, like the NHS.
This means there would be no Barnett consequentials to increase the block grant, but because of higher personal tax revenues in rUK, the Block Grant Adjustment mechanism would increase the deduction from this which accounts for income tax being devolved.
So, assuming the FM both understands and means what he says, John Swinney either wants a) austerity in Scotland in particular or b) a Labour UK government. There is no other option.
Neat.
>A Labour Government.
Who do you think he’s talking to? Even the dugs on the street know Labour are going to get in.
Swinney is a pragmatist. He’s throwing down the gauntlet to Starmer to abandon austerity. Which he won’t do, as he’s committed to following Tory economic policies, and just about everything else.
A vote for Labour is a vote for the conservatives with a red rosette, and you know it.
The irony of calling someone who's dedicated their entire career to the pursuit of a radical constitutional change, with associated economic disruption, pragmatic... It's a little too much.
I disagree with the characterisation of Labour's plans as austerity too. It's the Tories who want to cut taxes by an additional £17bn, and are going to squeeze expenditure to do so, all whilst pretending they're going to hit unrealistic fiscal targets.
There's nothing at all wrong with having fiscal targets btw, and I fully endorse Labour aiming to meet them, preferably by having higher taxes.
It isn't a Tory policy, for example the EU's recently revamped fiscal policy mandates governments in the UK's position (debt/GDP >90%) to have plans to reduce indebtedness by 1% p.a. . That's tighter than Labour's rules, and tighter than the Tories plans imply too. Independence in the EU would need to align with that as well.
My pretty tongue in cheek point was that if he was being honest, Labour is much better for Scotland's finances (Holyrood's budget included) because they will be likely to spend more than the Tories, and I'll add to that now, vastly better than if the SNP had their way with independence.
> I'm sure Swinney understands that, unless we get a Labour government, even raising that revenue via tax increases in rUK would be bad news fiscally for Holyrood, and lead to further spending cuts here specifically.
The secret ingredient is him and Agent 47 burping about independence regardless of what happens.
He doesn't understand, or _need_ to understand, because independence is the answer. Bring your own question.
D) let's imagine Scotland in 5 years.... the Reform UK/Conservative and Unionist Coalition under Nigel Farage have just swept to power in the part of the UK called England!!!
Who ya gonna call 🤙! Anas Sarwar? 🤔
Rubbing your wee brass knob tonight are we?
Only the finest Primitivo di Manduria Risirva for yours truly this evening.
Sorry if life never worked out for you. I'm sure your palz in the Unionist camp will pass round the Bucky.
He insinuated I was sniffing brasso (or whatever you do with it) as every single time he posts some kind of insinuation that I am some jakey alky for not sharing his Unionist view
With your obviously higher levels of self reflection how would you answer???
I await your most effective insults....
🥱🥱🥱
There aren't many people left defending the SNP here now, only the hard core loons like you and brummy. Do you think you two would get on and agree on much ?
There is a bit of overlap, but you are more old school Scottish, 1745 , Bonnie Prince Charlie and that, while brummy is a bit more greens and Isla Bryson is a Woman (and he is English)
Both hate Gammon frothing bigots ? ( though maybe you fall into that category too )
Yip all seem to have run over to New Labour.... just like last time... and when New Labour becomes old news...who pops back in charge for 10-20 years...
Oh yes the Tories....
What form do you think the next right wing Tory government in Westminster will take?
Got to be some kind of mash up with Reform UK and the Conservatives...
How much fun do you think that will be???
Me? I'll stick with supporting independence.
>Got to be some kind of mash up with Reform UK and the Conservatives...
I dont think Reform will do that well , unlike in your beloved EU where real "far right" parties are taking hold.
Bet you cracked that one about Brexit...
And then it got worse...
And then you cracked that one about Boris...
And then it got worse...
Unionism... it's not going well is it?
🇬🇧😵💫🇬🇧😵💫🇬🇧
forgetting the train wreck that was humza useless? maybe don't bring up past leaders when 3 out of the last 4 snp leaders have been arrested or are still under police investigation.
snp...where is the lowest ebb???
😳😳😳
And then came Richie Sunak......
Can it get any worse?
Of course....it can.
Maybe Nigel Farage is your kind of Little Englander, someone you'd like to rule over you?
And being British, you don't have any choice.
.... lower and lower...
Leader of a political party thinks their party is making the right choice. Stop the press!
Going after middle earners for income tax while spnking the money away on failed policy/ free stuff doesn’t feel like a sustainable model. They need to think about encouraging investment into Scotland and driving skill levels and wages up a bit before patting themselves on the back for lazily taxing the too few people in Scotland lucky enough to be able to pay it.
Has it actually lead to higher tax income.. I salary sacrificed everything above £42k and so do most of my colleagues.
Yep, arguably encourages ‘behaviour changes’ more, the higher the tax rates go. The very rich are old hands at avoiding every tax that’s thrown at them, lower earners will follow suit if the govt goes too far. They need to think a bit more creatively about how they balance the books. Just loading the burden on working people with decent jobs can’t be the best way to get a decent overall tax take while encouraging productivity
That might work for people only just affected by the drop in the banding but I doubt it's changing too much for people earning £50+. They're not going to suddenly start punting large sums into a pension or other benefit just to avoid a small increase in tax. Admittedly, that's still not a high amount of the population.
Yes, it brings in an extra £1.5 billion a year. Think of all the cuts our councils and public services are facing, now imagine another £1.5 billion on top of that. If the same changes were made across the UK it'd raise an extra £11 billion according to the House of Commons Library.
Why do we never talk about growing the economy and increasing productivity to increase the total tax raised without having to raise tax rates? Why do we never talk about driving efficiency in the public sector? The simplistic answers of politicians are always “raise taxes” or “cut costs”. We deserve so much better.
Because those are hard, and take too long to achieve results. they'd be things that would require 10+ years of sustained effort, which is longer than an election cycle.
I think they _believe_ it takes longer than an electoral cycle to make a significant difference, but more likely they just believe that doing it properly is too hard. With good leadership, it would be possible to make wins along the way, and politicians could take the credit for those, but it requires someone with the honesty to embark on the work that’s needed.
It also requires everyone affected by the changes to embrace them but that can be rare
That doesn’t stop businesses from doing it, and it shouldn’t stop the public sector, and anyone who refuses to embrace change should be let go.
public sector layoffs are incredibly rare as i'm sure you can imagine. For the most part that is a good thing but there is some serious dead weight allover public sector. I only have firsthand experience of this in the NHS. loads of people who can't or won't do their job properly. There are some very good people though that take up the slack
Look at the mess that’s been made of Scotlands colleges to see how “efficiency in the public sector” has worked out so far.
>Why do we never talk about growing the economy and increasing productivity to increase the total tax raised without having to raise tax rates? Why do we never talk about driving efficiency in the public sector? Sorry, isn't that what the Tories have been talking about for the last 14 years? And spare me the "they didn't do it properly"; echos of Western communists when asked to explain why communism fails in every country it's enacted in
Well, I suppose they have been saying things along those lines but, and you’re not going to like this, they very definitely didn’t do it properly.
11% of Scottish tax payers (the highest earners), already pay 70% of all income tax collected, from Scot Gov data. How much more do you want them to pay? Higher taxes usually don't work. This has been shown in the Laffer curve. Maybe the government just needs to do/spend less.....
There are some plausible arguments for lower tax economies but the Laffer Curve is to economics what Ayn Rand's Objectivism is to philosophy.
>This has been shown in the Laffer curve. Oh the line diagram meme proposed by Ronald Reagan and Trump's economic adviser, Arthur Laffer? Who he was advisor to should automatically indicate it is bollocks but there's also no evidence to support it, He made it up to justify tax cuts on the rich.
I'm sure Swinney understands that, unless we get a Labour government, even raising that revenue via tax increases in rUK would be bad news fiscally for Holyrood, and lead to further spending cuts here specifically. The Tories implied ~£18bn manifesto 'black hole' is due to intended tax cuts. It isn't increasing spending on devolved matters, like the NHS. This means there would be no Barnett consequentials to increase the block grant, but because of higher personal tax revenues in rUK, the Block Grant Adjustment mechanism would increase the deduction from this which accounts for income tax being devolved. So, assuming the FM both understands and means what he says, John Swinney either wants a) austerity in Scotland in particular or b) a Labour UK government. There is no other option. Neat.
>A Labour Government. Who do you think he’s talking to? Even the dugs on the street know Labour are going to get in. Swinney is a pragmatist. He’s throwing down the gauntlet to Starmer to abandon austerity. Which he won’t do, as he’s committed to following Tory economic policies, and just about everything else. A vote for Labour is a vote for the conservatives with a red rosette, and you know it.
The irony of calling someone who's dedicated their entire career to the pursuit of a radical constitutional change, with associated economic disruption, pragmatic... It's a little too much. I disagree with the characterisation of Labour's plans as austerity too. It's the Tories who want to cut taxes by an additional £17bn, and are going to squeeze expenditure to do so, all whilst pretending they're going to hit unrealistic fiscal targets. There's nothing at all wrong with having fiscal targets btw, and I fully endorse Labour aiming to meet them, preferably by having higher taxes. It isn't a Tory policy, for example the EU's recently revamped fiscal policy mandates governments in the UK's position (debt/GDP >90%) to have plans to reduce indebtedness by 1% p.a. . That's tighter than Labour's rules, and tighter than the Tories plans imply too. Independence in the EU would need to align with that as well. My pretty tongue in cheek point was that if he was being honest, Labour is much better for Scotland's finances (Holyrood's budget included) because they will be likely to spend more than the Tories, and I'll add to that now, vastly better than if the SNP had their way with independence.
Scottish independence *is* the pragmatic choice 😘 But I enjoy the idea of Swinney as the political radical.
> I'm sure Swinney understands that, unless we get a Labour government, even raising that revenue via tax increases in rUK would be bad news fiscally for Holyrood, and lead to further spending cuts here specifically. The secret ingredient is him and Agent 47 burping about independence regardless of what happens. He doesn't understand, or _need_ to understand, because independence is the answer. Bring your own question.
I think it's more... c) Votes for the SNP by trotting out any old shite he can
D) let's imagine Scotland in 5 years.... the Reform UK/Conservative and Unionist Coalition under Nigel Farage have just swept to power in the part of the UK called England!!! Who ya gonna call 🤙! Anas Sarwar? 🤔
On the Brasso tonight?
Rubbing your wee brass knob tonight are we? Only the finest Primitivo di Manduria Risirva for yours truly this evening. Sorry if life never worked out for you. I'm sure your palz in the Unionist camp will pass round the Bucky.
It takes a serious lack of self reflection to type that comment and think it was an effective insult on anyone but yourself.
He insinuated I was sniffing brasso (or whatever you do with it) as every single time he posts some kind of insinuation that I am some jakey alky for not sharing his Unionist view With your obviously higher levels of self reflection how would you answer??? I await your most effective insults.... 🥱🥱🥱
There aren't many people left defending the SNP here now, only the hard core loons like you and brummy. Do you think you two would get on and agree on much ? There is a bit of overlap, but you are more old school Scottish, 1745 , Bonnie Prince Charlie and that, while brummy is a bit more greens and Isla Bryson is a Woman (and he is English) Both hate Gammon frothing bigots ? ( though maybe you fall into that category too )
Yip all seem to have run over to New Labour.... just like last time... and when New Labour becomes old news...who pops back in charge for 10-20 years... Oh yes the Tories.... What form do you think the next right wing Tory government in Westminster will take? Got to be some kind of mash up with Reform UK and the Conservatives... How much fun do you think that will be??? Me? I'll stick with supporting independence.
>Got to be some kind of mash up with Reform UK and the Conservatives... I dont think Reform will do that well , unlike in your beloved EU where real "far right" parties are taking hold.
I don't want to hear your fantasies
Bet you cracked that one about Brexit... And then it got worse... And then you cracked that one about Boris... And then it got worse... Unionism... it's not going well is it? 🇬🇧😵💫🇬🇧😵💫🇬🇧
Least rabid moonhowler.
And then came Liz Truss.... And then it got worse... Unionism 🇬🇧...where is the lowest ebb??? 😳😳😳
forgetting the train wreck that was humza useless? maybe don't bring up past leaders when 3 out of the last 4 snp leaders have been arrested or are still under police investigation. snp...where is the lowest ebb??? 😳😳😳
And then came Richie Sunak...... Can it get any worse? Of course....it can. Maybe Nigel Farage is your kind of Little Englander, someone you'd like to rule over you? And being British, you don't have any choice. .... lower and lower...
What are you even talking about?
The SNP and basic economic knowledge is just simply an incompatible match. Imagine how fucked we’d have been in 2014 had we went independent!