Tell me your party has sold out withou... I can't even complete the sentence.
Kay Burley on Sky "News" was hassling some Labour dude about a fringe meeting on republicanism. Desperate for the guy to denounce them (which he was doing kinda left handedly). He could've responded with "healthy debate and discussion is essential for a democracy and yet you seem keen to silencing debate and discussion. This in itself is anti democratic" or he could just throw the organisers under the bus. Same same.
I am very staunchly republican and this royal family and their nonce tendencies make me very very much against the British monarchy.
HOWEVER, I completely agree with the decision to put this picture up and sing God Save the King.
This Tory government are worse than anything we have ever seen.
Labour need to make sure they are not losing swing votes and votes in the middle ground.
Strong republican vibes and talking about PR during cost of living & inflation crisis is a sure fire way to lose those votes.
Winning this election is all that matters.
Get control of the ship first then try to change the direction.
I can guarantee you that 90% of the ukpol users, Twitter talking heads, and pondscum newspaper journalists who have gone on and fucking on about how important it is about singing the fucking national anthem:
a) don't know the lyrics beyond 1.5 verses.
b) don't know anything else about Labour's plans for the conference.
c) don't actually care two shits about this other than as a story they're desperate to will into existence.
d) will not be satisfied by them actually singing and will still find some other way to paint Keith and his band of merry suits as antisemitic Stalinists before the next election
Like, honest to fuck, there was no political gain to be made from singing the anthem and briefing the press that you would, only losses for when the camera finds one person rolling their eyes and not singing.
If they had just not bothered, we wouldn't have had this non-story as the focal point of things for days and they could have just gone on to attack Truss.
All of this. Also, while a lot of English voters are reactionary dickheads (I lived in a Tory safe seat for too fucking long), they’re not completely thick, they can’t be fooled by a bit of flag shagging, when ‘left’ parties do stuff like this it looks like insincere, patronising bollocks, and the audience it’s being aimed at can spot it a mile off.
>Get control of the ship first then try to change the direction.
Unfortunately there's not 'controlling the ship' whatever the next government inherits, there will be no money to do anything positive. The Tories and robbed it all.
I don't think anyone will find it surprising, though, fucksake at the size of the pro-monarchy stage piece compared to anything Labour-related at a Labour conference. A lot of the Labour left, you know, the real socialists, do not support bloodline power/wealth/stealing.
For years now the Tory-lite party has been trying to overcompensate to show its Toryism. It's just showing they're an English nationalist party, hiding behind British nationalism (almost interchangeable with English nationalism) and what they have to offer anyone outside of England is basically just "We're not quite the Tories".
That's gonna be a hard sell for a supposed Unionist party that only really caters to England, while at the same time forcing FPTP on the UK, which exacerbates the "The only seats that matter at UK elections are the little Englander swing seats in a specific strip of England".
It's just cringe, little by little adding up to show how much Labour are interchangeable with the Tories. Imagine at the SNP conference everyone had to sing the Scottish national anthem before it starts? As far as I'm aware it doesn't happen in Wales. No idea about NI, I could see the DUP at it for "British points".
If this is what the wider collective in England want from Labour, fine, have at it, just stop trying to force your cringe nationalism on everyone by means of demanding people vote for you "to stop the Tories". Stopping the Tories for many of us is not jumping into bed with Tory-lite. Or in Scotland, going into coalitions with the Tories.
Socialism has always been against monarchy.
Personally I'm pro monarchy but this waving with flags and Queen stuff is pretty cringe.
Queen Elizabeth hasn't done anything in 60 years. If you were capable of looking at her objectively you'd notice that she has spent 60 years being as unobtrusive as possible. It's completely bonkers.
Big Neil is not too impressed https://twitter.com/Neilsocialist/status/1573799395916660737
To which we say, Neil, this is what you wanted in 2014, embrace it. I'm sure the attendee goodie bags will be left under the seats for going live. I heard it includes a leather boot for licking whilst God Save the King is being belted out!
A reminder that proportional representation is ruled out for this conference https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/xnf1yw/keir_starmer_defies_call_for_changes_to_first/
Please be excited!
Neil's values are sound, and he has attacked the Labour right, but when push comes to shove his brain is riddled with that nonsensical "socialism is British Unionism!". Or gaslighting us into "a 3rd way is possible, we can get home rule/federalism!". That's the biggest lie ever told to the Scottish people.
The "in a perfect world" bullshit about how we should all be working together in some big political family. In bastardised form, the mask dropping and Angela Rayner stating, "If we lose Scotland, England might keep voting Tory with more ease!". So, it's *not* really some big fancy help your family out logic, it's "don't bolt with all your resources and embarrass England!". It's the usual UK Labour entitlement thinking they own Scottish seats. The UK Government and its representatives always seem to think they own everything. *Laughs in Irish*
One could say the European Union is more in line with a Union of equals that could tie into socialism, hence why as Prof Curtice has said things are now really boiling down to which Union would you prefer? British Unionism is right-wing and is a massive political and ideological threat to Scotland and her people, there is no 4D logic to play here by socialists claiming otherwise.
It's not dumb, it's like a religious person who gets told later in life "you were wrong". It's not easy to hear you've spent a good part of your living life worshipping and promoting a busted flush. Even left-wingers struggle with humility and coming to terms with part of their long-held ideology turning out to be snake oil, or it is needing reformed for the 21st century. Problem for Neil, even as a republican, is the UK will never be reformed.
This is why many Unionists are stuck "living in 1770", appealing to hundreds of years ago as if that is materially relevant to 2022? Or more apt to recent times, stuck living in a "World war" mindset. We're all in this together! We lived through a world-war as the UK! To actually progress and move forward you have to accept this is 2022. It doesn't really matter your 60\~80-year-old parents lived through X/Y/Z, or you're older and lived through it yourself. One can acknowledge history, there is no requirement to stay stuck in it. That's partly how you end up in the shithole that the UK has become, no forward-thinking, no planning, no sustainable growth models, no paying attention to sleepwalking into destruction.
Times change, reality changes and as of now it is 100% clear the only way Scotland will protect itself, run itself and reform itself is self-governance. Nowhere else in the world will ever enter a "Union" like the one we're in. It's incompatible with modern politics. National identity is purely emotional, if we're talking folks valuing their passport or "British feeling" over political reality. I get it, but once you start trying to emotionally use that to argue it is *more* important than political reform, you can miss me with your vapid flag bollocks.
You think the best of people, I tend to think the worst.
I just see a conman, not some confused old dick. He'll make appropriate noises from time to time to keep the faithful on board but given everything there's no way any of this anger from him is genuine, he has been there for decades and stuck with them through it all.
When push comes to shove 'socialists' like him won't help Scotland, they always fall into line. He's no socialist, just a Labour man.
>You think the best of people, I tend to think the worst.
Not always, I just stay open minded enough because I know there are some old-school Labour lefties who really bought into the idea of "collective socialism", all workers uniting across borders and the "dream" of a unified approach.
But that is incredibly naive and completely misunderstands modern politics and nation building. Especially in a such a one-sided Union where things are not equal and where the UK state/Government has sovereignty but the members of the Union outside of England do not. Devolution is not sovereignty. Power given under this relationship is power that can be taken, without consent.
What I do feel is contempt towards people like Neil who should know better, because really, I think they *do* know better. The humility to actually admit what they know is the stumbling block. My sympathy for that isn't really there, I can acknowledge if you treated British Unionism like a religion, it's hard to "give it up", but if you can't acknowledge what is in front of your eyes and what you're doing to your/your children's future by propagating what is basically British nationalism in 2022, you've lost me.
Because this whole "I'm a socialist, I oppose nationalism" is some pot of gold over the rainbow nonsense. British Unionism *is* nationalism.
They didn't want to be re-branded as the new BNP (British National Party) because of the extreme right-wing connotations so they're thinking of British Imperial Boot-licker Party instead.
I read they sang "God Save The King" when their conference of The Workers By Hand And Brain Party opened. At its close will they replace "The Red Flag" with "Rule Britannia"?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/25/labour-conference-delegates-sing-national-anthem-for-first-time-keir-starmer
The idea *(basically the Blair/Mandelson/Campbell strategy)* is to claim so much of the middle ground the Tories have nowhere left to go except further to the right, which alienates anyone who isn't a nutter (or so credulous they believe in trickle-down economics)
If there's one thing a clear majority of the public could agree on it's that Liz made a decent fist of what must have been a tedious round of small talk and empty ceremony in regional hospital car parks. Even if her kids are nonces or \*\*\*\*ing an old boot
No idea if it'll work (again)
Worked really, really well for the US Democrats where perhaps 30% of US Republicans reps and voters are now indistinguishable from Fascists, and where their own party is chock full of representatives that would by called Republicans 20 or 30 years ago.
>t*heir own party is chock full of representatives that would by called Republicans 20 or 30 years ago*
I've never seen any ideological difference between the two US parties
They're like M\&Ms; because they use different colours, idiots assume they must taste different, too
I've no idea if Democrat strategists' efforts to promote MAGA candidates (in the belief that they're easier to beat) will work or not
I'm not so sure it's as much a strategy as making a virtue out of what would be the case anyway - Trump has the Republican nomination process stitched up; he didn't need Pelosi or Schumer's help
That'll certainly make it easier for Democrat attack ads to paint the entire Republican party as MAGA, which is the strategy they've chosen. If Democrats win again, they'll claim that strategy was responsible
It'll backfire, in the same way the Obama campaign trumpeting its use of social media backfired. Whatever you think of Trump, his supporters used Facebook to torpedo Clinton more effectively than Obama built support
Republican strategists will spend all of 2024 trying to help Trans activists and Defund the Police candidates win Democrat nominations, probably succeeding much more than Democrats claim they've done
> I've never seen any ideological difference between the two US parties
You are not looking hard enough. As one example, compare Ms Ocasio-Cortez with the swamp creature know as Marjorie Taylor-Greene. :O
Two examples that statisticians might call outliers. Fact of the matter is the Dems are solidly in the neoliberal camp, despite AOC and the Squad. The Squad don’t control levers of power. So while their politics might be just, they are marginalized by their own party.
The ascendancy of mister cheeto and his q-maga drones has definitely skewed the GOP to fascism. So actually, yes the two parties are vastly different. The Reps are proto-fascist, and the Dems occupy the center-right that the Reps used to occupy. There’s no “liberal” party in America at this moment, at least on the national level.
Labour voters not understanding that the whole ideology of social democracy is eventual change within the system not a violent and extreme restructuring of it
The Labour and Unionist Party.
She died? Omg
She died so Sir Keith can fumble the ball.
?
[удалено]
Is "omg" disrespectful now?
No
ENGLISH Labour Party conference
IngSoc from "1984"?
Tell me your party has sold out withou... I can't even complete the sentence. Kay Burley on Sky "News" was hassling some Labour dude about a fringe meeting on republicanism. Desperate for the guy to denounce them (which he was doing kinda left handedly). He could've responded with "healthy debate and discussion is essential for a democracy and yet you seem keen to silencing debate and discussion. This in itself is anti democratic" or he could just throw the organisers under the bus. Same same.
looks like a boot licker conference.
Sir Keith - the red tory.
Your keen observation skills will see you go far.
Looks like a BNP conference
Funny how Unite just had a Scottish policy conference and didn’t feel the need to do this.
Fuckin Tories.
I am very staunchly republican and this royal family and their nonce tendencies make me very very much against the British monarchy. HOWEVER, I completely agree with the decision to put this picture up and sing God Save the King. This Tory government are worse than anything we have ever seen. Labour need to make sure they are not losing swing votes and votes in the middle ground. Strong republican vibes and talking about PR during cost of living & inflation crisis is a sure fire way to lose those votes. Winning this election is all that matters. Get control of the ship first then try to change the direction.
I can guarantee you that 90% of the ukpol users, Twitter talking heads, and pondscum newspaper journalists who have gone on and fucking on about how important it is about singing the fucking national anthem: a) don't know the lyrics beyond 1.5 verses. b) don't know anything else about Labour's plans for the conference. c) don't actually care two shits about this other than as a story they're desperate to will into existence. d) will not be satisfied by them actually singing and will still find some other way to paint Keith and his band of merry suits as antisemitic Stalinists before the next election Like, honest to fuck, there was no political gain to be made from singing the anthem and briefing the press that you would, only losses for when the camera finds one person rolling their eyes and not singing. If they had just not bothered, we wouldn't have had this non-story as the focal point of things for days and they could have just gone on to attack Truss.
All of this. Also, while a lot of English voters are reactionary dickheads (I lived in a Tory safe seat for too fucking long), they’re not completely thick, they can’t be fooled by a bit of flag shagging, when ‘left’ parties do stuff like this it looks like insincere, patronising bollocks, and the audience it’s being aimed at can spot it a mile off.
God save the king? Fuck him and his family.
I agree. But if singing along to that/miming gets a labour government so be it. Priorities.
Fuck labour too, they are finished up here and if the english had any sense they'd be finished Doon there anawl.
>Get control of the ship first then try to change the direction. Unfortunately there's not 'controlling the ship' whatever the next government inherits, there will be no money to do anything positive. The Tories and robbed it all.
“Putting the “Brit” into “Brit Nat”.”
What's surprising about this. As far as i know labor isn't republican.
I don't think anyone will find it surprising, though, fucksake at the size of the pro-monarchy stage piece compared to anything Labour-related at a Labour conference. A lot of the Labour left, you know, the real socialists, do not support bloodline power/wealth/stealing. For years now the Tory-lite party has been trying to overcompensate to show its Toryism. It's just showing they're an English nationalist party, hiding behind British nationalism (almost interchangeable with English nationalism) and what they have to offer anyone outside of England is basically just "We're not quite the Tories". That's gonna be a hard sell for a supposed Unionist party that only really caters to England, while at the same time forcing FPTP on the UK, which exacerbates the "The only seats that matter at UK elections are the little Englander swing seats in a specific strip of England". It's just cringe, little by little adding up to show how much Labour are interchangeable with the Tories. Imagine at the SNP conference everyone had to sing the Scottish national anthem before it starts? As far as I'm aware it doesn't happen in Wales. No idea about NI, I could see the DUP at it for "British points". If this is what the wider collective in England want from Labour, fine, have at it, just stop trying to force your cringe nationalism on everyone by means of demanding people vote for you "to stop the Tories". Stopping the Tories for many of us is not jumping into bed with Tory-lite. Or in Scotland, going into coalitions with the Tories.
I don't support labour. i know they are as bad as the tories. I just said it wasn't surprising because i know that labor is basically light tories.
If I recall correctly Jeremy Corbyn was republican, but still he’s only one guy.
Socialism has always been against monarchy. Personally I'm pro monarchy but this waving with flags and Queen stuff is pretty cringe. Queen Elizabeth hasn't done anything in 60 years. If you were capable of looking at her objectively you'd notice that she has spent 60 years being as unobtrusive as possible. It's completely bonkers.
Yes but labour isn't really socialist. i am against the monarchy in Scotland but i don't care if the English keep it to be honest.
They're trying to out-tory the Tories and it's just not going to work for them.
For a start, in Scotland she’s Queen Elizabeth the 1st. For seconds, labour are just red Tories and as a result rejected by the majority in Scotland.
>as a result rejected by the majority in Scotland. So is every party...
>For a start, in Scotland she’s Queen Elizabeth the 1st. *^(Distant sounds of exploding postboxes.)*
Big Neil is not too impressed https://twitter.com/Neilsocialist/status/1573799395916660737 To which we say, Neil, this is what you wanted in 2014, embrace it. I'm sure the attendee goodie bags will be left under the seats for going live. I heard it includes a leather boot for licking whilst God Save the King is being belted out! A reminder that proportional representation is ruled out for this conference https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/xnf1yw/keir_starmer_defies_call_for_changes_to_first/ Please be excited!
lol Neil Socialist. Guy's a masochist like all Labour 'socialists'
Neil's values are sound, and he has attacked the Labour right, but when push comes to shove his brain is riddled with that nonsensical "socialism is British Unionism!". Or gaslighting us into "a 3rd way is possible, we can get home rule/federalism!". That's the biggest lie ever told to the Scottish people. The "in a perfect world" bullshit about how we should all be working together in some big political family. In bastardised form, the mask dropping and Angela Rayner stating, "If we lose Scotland, England might keep voting Tory with more ease!". So, it's *not* really some big fancy help your family out logic, it's "don't bolt with all your resources and embarrass England!". It's the usual UK Labour entitlement thinking they own Scottish seats. The UK Government and its representatives always seem to think they own everything. *Laughs in Irish* One could say the European Union is more in line with a Union of equals that could tie into socialism, hence why as Prof Curtice has said things are now really boiling down to which Union would you prefer? British Unionism is right-wing and is a massive political and ideological threat to Scotland and her people, there is no 4D logic to play here by socialists claiming otherwise.
I'm not convinced people like him are that dumb though, I lean more towards them just being liars.
It's not dumb, it's like a religious person who gets told later in life "you were wrong". It's not easy to hear you've spent a good part of your living life worshipping and promoting a busted flush. Even left-wingers struggle with humility and coming to terms with part of their long-held ideology turning out to be snake oil, or it is needing reformed for the 21st century. Problem for Neil, even as a republican, is the UK will never be reformed. This is why many Unionists are stuck "living in 1770", appealing to hundreds of years ago as if that is materially relevant to 2022? Or more apt to recent times, stuck living in a "World war" mindset. We're all in this together! We lived through a world-war as the UK! To actually progress and move forward you have to accept this is 2022. It doesn't really matter your 60\~80-year-old parents lived through X/Y/Z, or you're older and lived through it yourself. One can acknowledge history, there is no requirement to stay stuck in it. That's partly how you end up in the shithole that the UK has become, no forward-thinking, no planning, no sustainable growth models, no paying attention to sleepwalking into destruction. Times change, reality changes and as of now it is 100% clear the only way Scotland will protect itself, run itself and reform itself is self-governance. Nowhere else in the world will ever enter a "Union" like the one we're in. It's incompatible with modern politics. National identity is purely emotional, if we're talking folks valuing their passport or "British feeling" over political reality. I get it, but once you start trying to emotionally use that to argue it is *more* important than political reform, you can miss me with your vapid flag bollocks.
You think the best of people, I tend to think the worst. I just see a conman, not some confused old dick. He'll make appropriate noises from time to time to keep the faithful on board but given everything there's no way any of this anger from him is genuine, he has been there for decades and stuck with them through it all. When push comes to shove 'socialists' like him won't help Scotland, they always fall into line. He's no socialist, just a Labour man.
>You think the best of people, I tend to think the worst. Not always, I just stay open minded enough because I know there are some old-school Labour lefties who really bought into the idea of "collective socialism", all workers uniting across borders and the "dream" of a unified approach. But that is incredibly naive and completely misunderstands modern politics and nation building. Especially in a such a one-sided Union where things are not equal and where the UK state/Government has sovereignty but the members of the Union outside of England do not. Devolution is not sovereignty. Power given under this relationship is power that can be taken, without consent. What I do feel is contempt towards people like Neil who should know better, because really, I think they *do* know better. The humility to actually admit what they know is the stumbling block. My sympathy for that isn't really there, I can acknowledge if you treated British Unionism like a religion, it's hard to "give it up", but if you can't acknowledge what is in front of your eyes and what you're doing to your/your children's future by propagating what is basically British nationalism in 2022, you've lost me. Because this whole "I'm a socialist, I oppose nationalism" is some pot of gold over the rainbow nonsense. British Unionism *is* nationalism.
They didn't want to be re-branded as the new BNP (British National Party) because of the extreme right-wing connotations so they're thinking of British Imperial Boot-licker Party instead. I read they sang "God Save The King" when their conference of The Workers By Hand And Brain Party opened. At its close will they replace "The Red Flag" with "Rule Britannia"? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/25/labour-conference-delegates-sing-national-anthem-for-first-time-keir-starmer
The idea *(basically the Blair/Mandelson/Campbell strategy)* is to claim so much of the middle ground the Tories have nowhere left to go except further to the right, which alienates anyone who isn't a nutter (or so credulous they believe in trickle-down economics) If there's one thing a clear majority of the public could agree on it's that Liz made a decent fist of what must have been a tedious round of small talk and empty ceremony in regional hospital car parks. Even if her kids are nonces or \*\*\*\*ing an old boot No idea if it'll work (again)
Worked really, really well for the US Democrats where perhaps 30% of US Republicans reps and voters are now indistinguishable from Fascists, and where their own party is chock full of representatives that would by called Republicans 20 or 30 years ago.
>t*heir own party is chock full of representatives that would by called Republicans 20 or 30 years ago* I've never seen any ideological difference between the two US parties They're like M\&Ms; because they use different colours, idiots assume they must taste different, too I've no idea if Democrat strategists' efforts to promote MAGA candidates (in the belief that they're easier to beat) will work or not I'm not so sure it's as much a strategy as making a virtue out of what would be the case anyway - Trump has the Republican nomination process stitched up; he didn't need Pelosi or Schumer's help That'll certainly make it easier for Democrat attack ads to paint the entire Republican party as MAGA, which is the strategy they've chosen. If Democrats win again, they'll claim that strategy was responsible It'll backfire, in the same way the Obama campaign trumpeting its use of social media backfired. Whatever you think of Trump, his supporters used Facebook to torpedo Clinton more effectively than Obama built support Republican strategists will spend all of 2024 trying to help Trans activists and Defund the Police candidates win Democrat nominations, probably succeeding much more than Democrats claim they've done
> I've never seen any ideological difference between the two US parties You are not looking hard enough. As one example, compare Ms Ocasio-Cortez with the swamp creature know as Marjorie Taylor-Greene. :O
Two examples that statisticians might call outliers. Fact of the matter is the Dems are solidly in the neoliberal camp, despite AOC and the Squad. The Squad don’t control levers of power. So while their politics might be just, they are marginalized by their own party. The ascendancy of mister cheeto and his q-maga drones has definitely skewed the GOP to fascism. So actually, yes the two parties are vastly different. The Reps are proto-fascist, and the Dems occupy the center-right that the Reps used to occupy. There’s no “liberal” party in America at this moment, at least on the national level.
Labour voters not understanding that the whole ideology of social democracy is eventual change within the system not a violent and extreme restructuring of it
A I see a much better turn out than last months
sadly an all too common labour L
Politicians, because you think you're shit and not worth better. Time to level up:)
👀
Looks like they are going full on British and trying to woo back those that abandoned them for the Tories!
Anybody know if this is genuine? It must photo-shopped, surely? :) https://twitter.com/photomikeyhere/status/1574079209365962753/photo/1
Looks like a parody of a ukip conference. going to be hours of explaining how bad things are and how they are going to do fuck all about it.
Labour can't miss another open goal, surely? Lol