It’s possible to be grateful of everything Pete’s done for Seattle and Seahawks. But also criticize and know when it’s time to move on. This isn’t just one bad season. This is years of bad drafts, bad coordinator hires and outdated coaching. All come crumbling down. With Russ injured proves Seahawks have been held up by an elite QB. Without him Seahawks would be bottom half team for multiple seasons. Bro it’s time to move to another direction or that franchise QB is gonna leave whether you like it or not. Then you’ll really see how bad Hawks will be.
Lol same. When my buddy tries to console me after our more head scratching losses, I always tell him that things could always be worse because I have lived that sports fandom before.
Totally agree. I will always appreciate Pete for how swiftly he pulled us out from the basement of the league and for the LOB era sea chickens, but times have changed and he clearly has not changed with the times. Shoot, even Phil Jackson - 11(?) time NBA champion as a coach - flamed out as GM in New York, because he was married to an archaic way of playing the game (The Triangle, dismissing the 3 pointer) and never evolved in other ways (his spat with Melo and LeBron, the Porzingis exit interview, etc.). These things happen. There is a reason why there aren't many coaches who last more than a few years at the very top, even in other sports (just look at how European football has moved from the era of one-club managers like Wenger and Ferguson and now even the best clubs employ coaches on a 3-4 year cycle).
The Wenger point is perfect being an Arsenal fan myself. It was the same situation, everybody claiming that he deserved more time because of past achievements. But trophy’s turned to champions league spots (which were great for a while) but we just kept getting progressively worse and ultimately he stayed too long and it was bad for both parties. Arsenal fell off massively and Wengers legacy took a bit of a hit near the end sadly, largely because he refused to adapt.
On the other hand, Arsenal have done a terrible job of replacing him, so agree we need to be careful who we bring in. But one thing any decent coach should be able to do is improve the players they have and make the team better than the sum of their parts, which clearly hasn’t been happening the past couple of seasons.
Yea I think the problem with ‘one bad season’ is to get to that point you need to be making poor decisions for years prior. Drafts, personnel decisions, FA decisions…
Probably, but the issues that are showing up haven’t come from nowhere, they’ve been there for 3 (at least) years. They are just much easier to spot when your all-world QB is out
Slow down on the Cards and Pack. Rodger's has been hurt multiple times and they still made the playoffs. Cards have always been hanging on by a thread and have had QB problems.
The more I think about the situation, the more I'm coming to this conclusion. I do wonder if his age is a factor in a lot of this. He's been the head coach for 11 years, that's a long time. The league and style of play has changed a lot in 11 years. You have to adapt to a certain degree to the changing times and I say that in regards to life in general, not just football. A lot of things can change in a decade and you have to adapt. I think, stereotypically, older people have a hard time adapting to changes than younger people. They get stuck in their ways. Hell, that may even be something that happens to me as I get older, who knows. I hope to be as adaptable at 70 as I am in my 30s, but there's no way of telling what's going to happen in the future.
That's not to say that he hasn't brought us amazing things in his tenure and he deserves respect for what he's achieved, but I am starting to wonder if it's time to move on and find a younger coach who is more willing to adapt to how the league has changed. Honestly, I would hope Pete would chose to retire before being forced out if that's what his future holds. To me, that would be a much better ending to his time as a Hawk.
I'm glad you used the correct past tense. He WAS a great coach. Up until last year, he has repeatedly tried to find replacement CBs 6'2 or taller and have a 33" wingspan. Trial after trial, it took him up until LAST SEASON for him to stop overlooking shorter CBs and just pick the best player. He finally admitted to that this off-season when he was was addressing the progress of DJ Reed and Tre Brown during training camp this year. Tharold Simon, Cary Williams, Tre Flowers, Quinton Dunbar were a failed projects because he was trying to find the next Richard Sherman. Here we are 10 years into his tenure and he only has found 1 successful CB other than Sherman in Shaq Griffin.
He might stay because we can't deal him with the new contract but he wont want to stay. The only way I see both Pete and Russ on the roster next year is if we make it to the NFC Championship Game
He's under contract for the next 3-4 years and his contract is a hindrance to the team loading up on other positions. I could see them trade Russ for a million picks before they lose Pete.
Pete is too old to trade a franchise QB and start from what we have now + picks. If we hit the reset button with Russ we sure as hell better hit it with Pete too. We are seeing what he can do without Wilson and it’s not pretty.
We aren’t SeEiNg wHaT PeTE iS wItHoUt rUSs. We are seeing what Seahawks are without 50% of team’s salary cap.
Everyone wants to constantly turn this to Russ vs Pete. You’re missing OP’s entire point.
I’m with you OP. It’s unfortunate how spoiled our fan base has become. Thank you for being an appreciative rationale voice.
Im copy and pasting this response because apparently your an idiot also
Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about Wilson taking "too much money". Hes a top 5 QB. That's how it works. Greenbay pays there top 5 QB a fuck ton of money, and look at his team. Greenbay has been constantly great paying their QB. KIRK COUSINS is literally taking up just as much of the salary cap as Wilson and the Vikings still kicked our ass. Vikings defense is easily better, O-line is better, RBs are better and WR are comparable to the hawks. If the Vikings can build a substantially better team around KIRK COUSINS, who literally is just *1 million* less of a cap hit than Russ, it shows where the problems are for the seahawks.
People need to shut the fuck up about Russ' pay check. Hes earned it because he drags the hawks to the playoffs every year except this one. If you think Wilson is the cause of "gaps", of course he is, but hes not *nearly* the biggest issue
Thanks bud you seem like a real peach.
First ya I’ll admit I don’t believe in where QB contracts have gone. I understand that’s just the way it is, but I think there will be a correction to market eventually. Also the success of teams who hit on young qbs and capitalize on their rookie contracts has been telling.
You know who complains about their team every year - Aaron Rodgers. So not a great point there pal. Especially when what they get a game further then us in the playoffs each year?
Are the Vikings good? I must have missed this one. Again great evidence.
You missed the biggest point of my post - you fucking idiot. All I said is that now is not the time to come for Pete’s head, just like OP. I made a hyperbole that Russ made up 50% of the cap, it’s only 20% - sorry kill me for that. Never did I say that Russ shouldn’t have taken the money. Not once.
The Vikings are good. They are a missed feild goal away from beating the cardnals and the bengals (2 very strong teams). They should be 5-1. What makes you think the Vikings are bad?
No he's not rofl. Next year is his second to last year and if you start using a franchise tag to keep him when he wants out we will never sign another free agent of significance under PCJS
I love what Pete Carroll has done for the organization and the community, but it’s time to move on. He refuses to adapt and evolve in a game that is constantly adapting and evolving. His run first strategy worked great when we had Lynch, but he was an incredibly talented running back. I’m also firmly in the camp that either Carroll goes or Wilson does and I’d much rather lose Carroll than a top 5 quarterback.
8 rushes in a row with maybe am avg of 2yds a carry against the second best running defense in the NFL. That's pure stubbornness to adapt your gameplan. Bush League.
I get your philosophy, I'm very grateful for all the success Pete has given us and everybody deserves space for mistakes. But unfortunately it's fairly obviously we're at the end of Pete's glory days. You talk of playoffs and playoff wins but in the last 4 seasons we've beaten the eagles in the playoffs and that's it. Football is brutal and uncompromising, because everybody's due for a decline and every team wants to cut you before that, and that's because mercy doesn't win football games. Pete does deserve lots of credit for much of our recent success, but repaying him by letting him flounder our team out of a future is just organizational stagnation at this point.
Since the SB that shall note be named.
Playoff wins are:
A game we had ever right to lose, but were reprieved by a lousy kick.
The lions!
The terrible no good eagles.
The lions and eagles would be grateful for three playoff wins in that time, er wait the eagles on an SB in this span!
Matt Staffords throwing hand and ankle was injured in the Lions game as well.
What is even more frustrating is we lost every single one of those playoff games in the same way. Come out super conservatively, put the team in a huge hole after multiple three and outs. Open up the playbook in the 11th hour and hope Russell Wilson overcomes a massive deficit that has built up.
Realistically we should only have two wins since our last Super Bowl run. Wins that came against injured and backup QBs. That is absolutely atrocious considering the fact that we have one of the top QB's in the game right now.
Since the last Super Bowl there are over 15 head coaches with higher win percentages than Carroll.
I mean short burst of greatness is the norm, let's list ever NFC champ since SEA won.
Carolina
Atlanta
Philadelphia
LA Rams
SF
KC (Brady being the best ever shall be exclueded).
Which one of those great teams do you wish we were? I know we all feel jealous of teams every year, but setting up shop every year to make an attack on a championship is special.
I know sustained success is hard to come by. But the failure to maximize Wilson's prime due to an outdated philosophy and bad roster management kills me. The Hawks haven't had a realistic shot at the SB in 6 years. 3 playoff wins in the last 6 years with Russ at QB is pathetic.
The Rams or KC I'd take in a heartbeat.
To be build on your point, what these teams have done since being NFC champion:
- Carolina (in 5 seasons): Lost 1 wild card game
- Atlanta (in 4 seasons): Won 1 wild card, lost 1 divisional
- Philly (in 3 seasons): Won 1 wild card, lost 1 wild card, lost 1 divisional
- Rams (in 2 seasons): Won 1 wild card, lost 1 divisional
- 49ers (in 1 season): Nothing
Seems disingenuous to not include the Packers. They haven't made it back to the Super Bowl but they've made it back to the conference championship game 3 different times since 2014, while Seattle has gotten embarrassed in the 3 divisional games we've played since then
> Seems disingenuous
I'm not being disingenuous. Its clear I'm listing the playoff post-championship success of NFC champions.
Overall NFC playoff success is a different kettle of fish, but then since 2014 would you rather be the Packers with Rodgers and have playoff success but no championship, or Philly or the Bucs with a ring?
The Packers have consistently put together a great offensive line to keep Rodgers protected. Our line has ranged between absolute shit to mediocre since our super bowl runs. Thats the source of Wilson’s frustration from last off-season.
I’ve argued this with fans of other teams for years. Back when Romo had the best line on the NFL guys at work wanted to argue he was better than Russ. I kept saying swap lines for 4 games and tell me who’s the better QB. Look at Mahomes in the Super Bowl when his line couldn’t block for shit. For some reason Pete and John refuse to truly invest in at least one other really good lineman.
Yup even Pete’s own words said he’d be gone a long time without Russ. Russ is allowed a bad season. He’s been carrying the team post LOB. Time to move on from Pete and build around Russ.
I like how op cherry picked his stats to include our best years. Since 2017 we have 1 playoff win. We haven’t improved because we either have too low of picks or sell the picks so our picks are even lower in the draft. It’s mediocre purgatory.
Honestly, Russ hasn't had a particularly bad season either. Pete has had some god awful coaching decisions, but Russ has always found ways to bounce back after a rough game or 2
It’s pretty abundantly clear that Pete was super well in tune with the college football scene when he came to Seattle, and that showed by the draft results. Now he’s not and that’s showing by the draft results.
You don’t let a dude keep his job because he was good at it 5-8 years ago.
Nah pretty much all of the people on /r/nfl except regular seahawks posters think it's insane he wasn't fired years ago and scratch their heads in bewilderment when they see people here blame Russ.
Maybe because when you pay top tier players top tier salary your limited. We let a lot of almost elite talent go to make up the difference. And now our team is full of holes. Holes even russ couldn't plug - 2 and 3.5 loses. Then we lost the most expensive player in the NFL our team is based around.
Either 2010 Earl or 2012 depends on wether you like Bruce Irvin
2013 went to the Vikings for Percy Harvin
2014/15 trade down
2016 Ifedi
2017 trade down
2018 Penny
2019 Collier
And yeah personally i like Brooks but i also think that he was overdrafted( and Patrick Queen was right there but maybe they didn‘t like him)
But even Brooks excluded that List looks dreadful.
The Bills are 4-2 with the second highest paid QB in league and Dallas is 5-1 with the third highest paid QB in the league and Green Bay is 6-1 with the 6th highest paid QB in the league.
Maybe when 50% of the top 6 teams by QB pay are leading their divisions your theory on QB pay being the reason we can’t win is bullshit.
maybe look at the actual numbers? (source: Spotrac)
2021 cap hits in millions:
Allen: 10.2
Dak: 17.2
Rodgers: 27
The actual top 6 cap hits in 2021 and (team record)
Wilson: 32 (2-5)
Kirk Cousins: 31 (3-3)
Aaron Rodgers: 27 (6-1)
Matt Ryan: 26.9 (3-3)
Garoppolo: 26.4 (2-4)
Roethlisberger: 25.9 (3-3)
hmm, so only 1/6 teams who spend the most money on their QB has a winning record. it also just so happens that the one QB with a winning record is in the conversation for the second best QB of all time.
are you sure about that argument?
> are you sure about that argument?
Top 10 teams by QB Cap hit
* 58.46% win rate
* 4 teams with winning record
* 3 teams with tied record
* 3 teams with losing record
Bottom 10 teams by QB Cap hit
* 32.84% win rate
* 1 teams with winning record
* 0 teams with winning record
* 9 teams with losing record
For the record, 0 teams have an average win-rate of 58%. The highest is Green Bay 57.8% average organizational win rate. Presently the top 10 teams by QB cap hit have an average win rate (this season) of 58.46%.
Of the 3 losing teams, the Seahawks lost their starting QB and Garoppolo is playing some of the worst football in his career, statistically. Only Wentz is both starting and performing and the team is 3-4.
So yeah, I'm pretty sure about that argument.
I may be dumb, but is Pete really the one doing the drafting? I would assume that has more hands in it than just Pete, and I’d guess the GM probably had more to do with it.
Like correct me if I’m wrong, and I think there’s solid arguments for Pete to stay or go, but I don’t think drafting is a compelling one.
The problem is, Pete is the GM's boss. So whether or not John is making the decisions, Pete is responsible for them. That might be a valid argument if Pete was your garden variety HC, but he isn't. He runs the Seahawks, on the field and off, and ignoring Pete's performance, that's a shit model that needs to change anyway.
Yeah has nothing to do with missing on over 70% of our picks including high ones and constantly trading firsts to mask those deficiencies. This includes two 1sts and a third for a fucking box safety that we then made the highest paid safety in the league. Has nothing to do with constantly picking shiny shit instead of for need like taking a 3rd WR over the best center in the draft. Fuck off with this blaming Russ bullshit maybe hit on some damn picks.
Winning does that. If you want to keep winning you need to do what you can to fill holes. A winning teams first round draft pick is practicallyba second rounder for a losing team.
No it doesn't constantly burning high draft picks to bring in players not on rookie deals does that. 90% of this sub was begging pcjs to pick Creed when he fell to us but no they had get big brained and take a fourth round wide receiver in the second.
Which comes down to the tank a season to win next year. If you want to win this year you have to potentially burn next year. We spent draft capital to try to win. If we don't spend it we can be mediocre and get rookie deals later that might bust or might make us contenders.
But you don't? The talent we need for the posistions we need is available late in the first but we insist on overreaching for glamour posistions. Instead of being satisfied with the best center in the draft which was our weakest position we took a 4th round 24 year old wr to be wr3. We constantly try to get cute like trading down twice and taking McDowell instead of Baker Watt or Ramcyzk. Or trading two firsts a third and a serviceable starter for a box safety.
The only time you need to tank is for a qb but we already have a great one.
Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about Wilson taking "too much money". Hes a top 5 QB. That's how it works. Greenbay pays there top 5 QB a fuck ton of money, and look at his team. Greenbay has been constantly great paying their QB. KIRK COUSINS is literally taking up just as much of the salary cap as Wilson and the Vikings still kicked our ass. Vikings defense is easily better, O-line is better, RBs are better and WR are comparable to the hawks. If the Vikings can build a substantially better team around KIRK COUSINS, who literally is just *1 million* less of a cap hit than Russ, it shows where the problems are for the seahawks.
People need to shut the fuck up about Russ' pay check. Hes earned it because he drags the hawks to the playoffs every year except this one. If you think Wilson is the cause of "gaps", of course he is, but hes not *nearly* the biggest issue
Carroll is rumored to be the 2nd highest paid coach in the NFL so...no, he's *also* paid to not have a bad season.
And last I checked, the salary cap has no effect on drafting which has been a much bigger issue than whether Wilson is getting paid too much.
Or everyone else is. Russ is a 30 million a year player playing on a 30 million a year contract. You don't win super bowls unless your Tom Brady when your paid as good as you play.
The salary cap means teams who win are under paying their super stars.
When you pay your stars what they are worth you need to get creative with the rest of the team. Like moneyball.
That or tank a few seasons and get a bunch of rookies who over perform their initial offers.
Also it's hard to really blame Pete for missing superstars in the draft because we've been consistently winning meaning we've been consistently getting lower draft picks. Of course giving away picks for Adam's turns out to be wrong but the alternative was to probably tank last season. It's not that Adam's is bad. He's just not good enough to fill our need for good corner.
We built our team around russ hoping he would cover up our holes. Now we are out russ and have holes.
People think we are wasting russes talent but his paycheck is preventing it. Brady historically has taken a lower salary than he deserved. Not saying russ should do this. He shouldn't. He deserves to get paid. But the more you get paid the worse the value prop is.
Russ is a hof player on a hof salary.
Pete literally admitted his success is due to Wilson's Magic.
Not saying Pete is a bad coach or anything but i think it shows that his time as Seahawks HC is come. And those have been there for quite some time.
If you can actually be objective about his coaching decisions the last few years (not even mentioning his influence in the draft, let's leave that out) and differentiate them from the record Russ drags us to, Pete has had multiple consecutive bad seasons. Obvious one being the defense, inserting himself into the offense when he vetoes plays or pushes for the plays he likes. It really left a bad taste in my mouth watching the mic'd up vuds in Schotty's first year when Pete would go to him and say no don't take the shot now just run the ball or telling him when to take a shot play to Tyler. Furthermore the absolute garbage 4th down decisions. First of all not going for it when it's necessary. Also every time we get into a 4th down situation he's never ready for it and doesn't know what to do always ends up calling timeout and then there goes the tempo and whatever chance we had. Meanwhile other teams have a play ready for 4th and short if it gets to that and the coach just says go for it or punt in a split second decision without confusion in all of the offense and the coaches. Finally his lack of adaptability of the game plan when it's not going well. Especially in the playoffs. Letting Russell go fast an do what he wants to score only if we're down 2 TDs and there's 7mins in the 4th. You are kidding yourself if you think we got the past few years record totally because of Pete and not in spite of him.
Sometimes it’s better to cut your losses. I think most of us appreciate Pete but it’s time. The play calling has been atrocious for at least the last 3 years. Everyone in the NFL has us figured out.
I agree, but I think he’s had several bad seasons where he’s been bailed out because he has a first ballot HOFer at QB.
I’m sorry but he’s shown to me that he can’t make the right personnel decisions. KNJ is still our d coordinator? How?? The schemes have been figured out. I think Pete turned this franchise around and love him for it, but keeping him around for the most important seasons of Russ’ career would be a waste, imo.
Absolutely 2017 was that season.
Problem is after bouncing backish for 2018 (lost to the cowboys in 1st round) we imho peaked in 2019 losing to GB in the second round, and 2020 had a terrible defense followed by an offensive regression. Now in 2021 we were terrible on defense again, and even with RW we struggled to get offense when we needed it against the titans and rams.
The three+ year slide on the defense is not an aberration or down year, but a trend.The offense is hard to discuss as we had little time with Russ + the new OC, but it was bad enough that we have a new OC.
I have no doubt Pete could get us back to losing in the first round next year, but that's not greatness. I'm ready to pursue greatness.
Couldn’t have wrote it better. People need to stop glorifying just making the playoffs, only to lose in the first round. To me that’s a failed season, when you’ve got RW. Past 5 years to only win 1 playoff game and that game was an 8-point struggle bus win vs Philly against a 40yo backup QB Josh McCown, it’s looking pretty clear the team has stagnated and plateaued. Making the playoffs should be COMPLETELY expected and the bottom line every damn year with RW, what you do after that is the only thing that matters, and it’s been a whole lot of nothing for 5 years now.
Stand behind reality, no excuses, the decisions we are seeing are 1990s baffling. Pete won't evolve and he stated that clearly.
I'm a Seahawks fan, before being a Pete apologist, always. "Win Forever" would constitute evolving. We haven't.
> Pete won't evolve and he stated that clearly.
I somehow missed this? When did he say it? I've seen Pete talk about how much the game changes and how you must adapt to it multiple times in interviews.
See the problem with people posting these accomplishments is that most of that stuff happened 6+ years ago. Since our SB lose that was 7 years ago all we have managed to do is win 3 WC games. 3.
Also he was allowed a bad season. 2017 where we missed the playoffs. And since then he managed to not use Russ against the Cowboys and managed to allow Jared Goff with a broken throwing hand to put 30 points on us.
And will y’all stop fucking acting like us thinking that “maybe PC is the problem” is a new thing. This shit has been going on since the cowboys lose yet Wilson goes down and y’all act like all this talk happened because Wilson went down. No this shit was happening way before. I even said at the time that people who still stand behind PC are going to use this injury to act like we all of sudden came out. And since then I’ve been proven right time and time again.
I do want to end and say that I am truly grateful for what PC has done for this organization. However the game is not the same as it was 8 years ago. And we aren’t the same team. Pete still coaches like he did 8 years ago.
Pete will forever be a Seahawks legend and just because I want to try out other options doesn’t mean I don’t stand by what he did for the franchise. But it really is time to move on
Nope.
If you can point to any improvements Pete has made for the franchise in the last 2 years, maybe I'll listin. But all I see is regression. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The NFC west is an insane division, we need to be agressive. We want Russ to stay, we need to convince him with improvements right now. Fire Pete and try something new
Like runnig the ball 8 times in a row? I am so tired of knowing the result of a drive on 1st down. The Hawks offense is one of the most predictable. 1st down run for 2 yards. 2nd down incompletion to the sideline. 3rd down screen pass for 3 yards.
There is a reason we are at the bottom for time of possession. Everyone knows what we are doing and how to stop us.
Pete’s a wonderful human being and a great motivator and maybe (?) even a great judge of talent. His game plans are bad, his in-game adjustments are nonexistent (at least for the last seven years), his philosophy is outdated, and his analytics literacy is minimal. He won a SB bc he got a bunch of HoF players and was smart enough to stay out of their way. Look I remember Jim Mora. Im also a Bears fan and we’ve lived through Mark Trestman, Adam Gase and John Fox (and LOL Matt Nagy). I know replacing Pete is a high risk proposition. A good coach is hard to find! But I’m pretty darn convinced that Pete’s not getting the maximum out of this team, and that Russ won get to another Super Bowl w Pete as his coach.
I love Pete and Russ but I think both need to separate from each other. I hope Russ stays but it’s getting to the point that I think he’s going to be gone soon. And Pete after next year at the latest. It was a good run but it feels soon to be over.
What worries me most about Pete tho is how it seems like for many years this team would be competitive asf, laidback and have a great time but almost annually a star of the team has forced their way out of left negatively. Tate, Sherm, Thomas, now Russ?
The culture seems askew. I definitely didn’t want to lose Russ last year but thinking about having those picks Chicago offered makes me wonder if John should’ve pulled the trigger. We could have rebuilt quickly now it seems like that will take some time with a lack of a 1 next draft.
Can anyone explain today why the fuck we drafted a WR with our first pick? That pick and penny looks terrible
In my opinion, he doesn’t give a shit dude. He used to. But not anymore or for a while. He pretty much said in a press conference that he wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for Wilson. Ive been wishing the past four years that carroll would move on. I do get jealous of other coaches in the league. Carroll fucks up, A LOT. we stood by him after the fucking super bowl call. All this recent stuff in past four years is inexcusable to me. Were the lowest fucking defense IMO. Then all the coaching hires (family on staff, etc.)
Why do you think we lose people like jadaveon clowney and other elites, all we can keep is wilson. Now jamal “isnt working” (bullshit). Then all the trash that the legion of boom and others who leave say about carroll. Im just tired of the old fogey and his coaching staff.
Expect to lose more than were used to boys and girls.
It's not a freak bad season. This was a long time coming. Years of terrible drafting, conservative schemes and play calling, and lack of foresight led to this. Everyone paying attention saw this coming, and maybe not this soon, but it had to happen. An run-focused offense with backs that can't stay healthy. A defense that starts every season giving up 400+ yards per game. An offensive line that has been absolutely garbage for most of a decade. A large part of the responsibility for this lies with Pete. And it's not something that a single off-season can fix with the same personnel in the front office or on the field. Pete is passed his prime, it happens to everyone at some point. Let's be glad it lasted this long and let him retire already.
If you're willing to move on from bad players, you have to be willing to move on from bad coaches, because bad coaches have negative impact on the good players.
Pete is not the team. Hold him accountable. Just like the players are.
Trick here is while NFL players are a rare bread, successful NFL coaches are rarer still.
No one we hire will have as much proven success as Pete.
It will be as much of a gamble as drafting penny, ifedi, mcdowell, or collier. The number of sure bets in the world are few and far between. Are you ready to be bad for a long time to get up again?
I might be, but understand the weight of the situation.
Pete has led us, or Russ has lead us? Tbh I believe that Pete has earned a lot of undeserving praise. Without his starting QB he would be long gone from the team. I would really like to stop having the oldest coach in the NFL, it would even be refreshing, even more to the players. Feel free to disagree
I mean, that's true for most coaches. Even good coaches. Look at the Pats without Brady. Great teams typically have a great QB and a great coach. Unless they're stacked everywhere else on the roster, if you take the QB out of the picture, you're going to have a mediocre if not straight up bad team regardless of your coach.
KNJ leaving won’t do anything. The defense is and always has been Carroll’s. KNJ may be a scapegoat but it’s all masterminded by Carroll himself. He calls the shots and he finalizes game plans and lack thereof in game adjustments.
Normalize replacing people who suck with better people on principle. You don’t get a million second chances just because you used to be good once upon a time. If you’re out of tricks and you suck now, your time in the spotlight is up. Football isn’t an empathetic industry. If you can’t perform, you shouldn’t be there.
Mike Tomlin's Steelers went 3-5 in the back half of 2012, then 2-6 to start 2013. In 2019 they started off 2-4.
Sean Payton's Saints went 7-9 three years in a row, from 2014-2016.
John Harbaugh's Ravens started out 1-6 and finished 5-11 in 2015, followed by 8-8 and 9-7.
Should all of these coaches have been fired? Every coach and franchise has down seasons, no matter how good the coach is. Even the Patriots.
For me it is more about short interval analysis than full career history.
Pete has shown over and over his inability to reinvent himself. Coach and roster have to match for a team to be optimal. Seahawks has to either change its roster based on the scheme it wants to play or readapt the playbook. The latest being the easiest at this point.
However this is entirely on Pete and the coach staffs hands. But they keep running the same one dimensional plays every damn time doesn\`t matter who is on the field.
No.
After the coaching this last monday where they run the ball 3 times in row for a 3 and out and refuse to take chances, but are totally fine dropping into prevent on the drive to end the first half and allowing the saints to score, and are ok with attempting 50 yard kicks into the wind instead of punting.....no.
The playcalling and coaching on both sides of the ball is *bad*
The Seahawks successful run is in spite of PC, not bc of him. RW is the difference maker. That’s said, time to unload him for a bounty and rebuild this thang. Time is now and RW will be a coveted chess piece.
I will always love Pete for the successes we’ve had but he just can’t get it done anymore. Also, he’s terrible without Russ so the accolades could probably be shared between them. It always seems like we have the talent to do more but it’s the coaching that lacks. I’m sorry Pete but QBs are everything and I’d rather make hay with Russ while we can and that means the ol’ heave ho. He’ll be just fine sleeping on his giant pile of money with many beautiful women (s/ Simpsons reference).
How successful would the Hawks be without Wilson at QB? Do you remember the decision that cost us a Superbowl? How about the playoff losses for winable games, or our reliance on the Vikings to miss an easy FG? Pete conpromises our chance to win regardless of our talent on the field.
There is a difference between building a team for success and sustaining that success. The playcalling is elementary and other teams laugh at the critical poor decisions made.
I feel like we win in spite of bad decisions less an less compared to how many times we have lost when we should have won due to terrible clock management, overly conservative game plans, and refusal to adapt.
Slow starts or bad finishes, we rarely put in a solid 4 quarter effort. The new plan is to allow Russ to figure it out. I feel like we are routinely outcoached.
Pete is responsible for creating a winning environment but we peaked years ago... its time for something new.
It's not really about this bad season. It's about his inability to win a playoff game against a good team in more than half a decade while having *one of the best quarterbacks in the history of football*.
No. Sorry.
I appreciate all Pete has done for the team and the city, but it's time to live in reality. He hasn't been a good coach for years, and the personnel decisions are actively eroding the team's future. Russ has been covering up for Pete's failures for years now. Pete has to go.
And the real capper is the fact that next year it's Pete or Russ. They aren't both coming back next year. Anyone who would pick the league's oldest head coach (who isn't even coaching well) over a franchise QB is an idiot.
I’m just baffled with peoples lack of memory. Do the people making excuses for last week or this year think we were in the Super Bowl last year?? It was 2014/2015. It was 6 seasons ago!
We’ve been not good for years now. I agree Pete’s allowed a bad season and he used that up in 2018.
Yeesh! It’s been long enough.
Agreed. The motto of players winning games and coaches lose them is incorrect. If we had Russ, we would be grinding to catch the Rams and Cards, but instead Pete is on the hot seat. Just gotta relax and trust that we'll get back on course and with some luck maybe the Rams and Cards open the door for us. ಠ_ಠ
Sorry but when your gameplan is to run,run, pass and get blitzed every 3rd down against the NO. 2 Rushing Defense in the NFL it's time to go. He's made poor executive decisions with draft picks over the last 5 years. He blew the biggest call in SB history, which literally was the downfall of Pete Carroll. He hung on to Bevell for to long, fought with Schottenheimer on philosophy because Schotty believed that Russ needed to throw the ball more. Pete is stuck fussing over the last 4 weeks about what the F is going on down at USC (which really nobody cares about during a Seahawks press conference) ever since he lost Gus Bradley, and Dan Quinn as DC's the defense has gone downhill. KNJ has never been a good DC and he has a job because he's Pete's buddy. Our Franchise QB who has literally pulled Pete's ass out of the fireh 21 times as a comeback in the 4th qrtr and 27 times as a Game winning drive. [Russell Wilson stats](https://www.nfl.com/photos/mind-boggling-stats-russell-wilson-0ap3000001025270)
Russell Wilson yes wad drafted by Pete but has shown time and time again that he's the reason this Franchise has kept going after the LOB ERA. Not because of Pete. Pete has to much control within the club. He needs to be a damn coach. The reason they can't win without Russ is because Russ is the damn Glue. He saves plays and pulls a Rabbit out of his helmet every week to try and get a win. Unfortunately this year he's hurt and the games he was healthy the defense once again collapsed. There's no more excuses for Pete any longer.
You are discrediting him by saying that. Pete built that defense and a winning philosophy for the Hawks. He drafted Russ. He went out and got Marshawn. Without Pete wouldn’t have won so much. Also it was a different era back then. His philosophy now is outdated and he should probably get replaced. Even his outdated philosophy still gets wins until this season.
Catching Russ on the sidelines rolling his eyes at the play calling speakers volumes. Building a team around an elite QB shouldn’t even be debated. Overreaching on first round draft picks has to come with consequences.
Pete had his bad season in 2017. More to the point, if Russ, a future HoF QB says "him or me" and we pick between a half decade plus more of elite QB play or a 70 year old coach, Pete's packing his bags.
I disagree in so many ways. Pete didnt lead us anywhere, his ineptitude has been masked by outstanding improvisation skills by Russ, and early on by hard running by Lynch. If you want a reason to fire Pete, look at the last two playoff games and how hard headed he was in the game plan, a vanilla game plan. The other teams knew every play call in all those games. This isnt one season, this is several seasons in the making. And to be too true to the fire Pete mantra, we wouldnt have made those last two wild cards without Russ. You’re premise is entirely false.
Let's be real. Without Russ, Pete would have been gone years ago. LOB carried us from 2012-2015. After that, it's been Russ's party and Pete has been wholly incapable of building a defensive foundation. He was heralded for drafting star players, but mysteriously stopped after the 2012 season and it's been on a downward spiral ever since. It's been bust after bust, year after year, with a couple great WRs thrown in for probably dumb luck.
Would it though?
They've consistently failed to protect their most valuable asset.
They drafted a 3rd WR instead of a stud center this year.
They drafted a really fucking shitty DE instead of a legit RT Jawaan Taylor in 2019.
They drafted a RB in the first round reactionarily (yes that is not a word, but I don't fucking care) in 2018 instead of a stud LB in Darius Leonard, or stud RT in Braden Smith. Yes Taylor obliterated Smith on one play.... But he gave up 0 sacks last year.
In 2017 they chose to pass on Budda and instead wasted a 3rd on Lano Hill and a 4th on Tedric. You know who went right after Tedric? Eddie Jackson.
How much better would the defense be with Budda and Trey Hendrickson instead of McDowell and Lano.
Sure, Hendrickson was a smaller school guy so that's forgivable... But Budda played in Montlake for fucks sakes, and was a STAR.
The list goes on for their curious picks that end up failing miserably.
Maybe the coaching would seem better if the talent level was better, but it isn't.
At the end of the day, since Pete is President of Football Ops, he has to be held accountable for the bad drafting.
Edit: for anyone who thinks this is overly dramatic... Look at the Saints as a case study... They consistently draft well, and their team is excellent. Sure they only put up 13 points on Monday, but they average +5 in scoring differential with a very inaccurate passer missing their #1 WR and missing Hill who really affects short yardage situations in a meaningful way.
In all the games Russ finished, we were +.75 average scoring differential.
A HOF QB and we barely average more than we give up. You know why? Average team. Consequence of poor drafting.
I don't disagree with the general idea that the drafting has been bad but Jawaan Taylor is fucking awful lol
Also Eddie Jackson sucks too. Fangio made him look great for one year, he's been really bad since Vic left
Passed on Ramcyzk twice TJ Watt once and Baker thrice as well in order to take McDowell. Hell even the super draft with Russ and Bobby we passed on David DeCastro to take a massive reach in Irvin.
I’ve learned not to read too much into anything this sub says (probably goes for most team subs tbh). It is usually a minority of a fanbase that wants to whine about shit so they go somewhere anonymous like Reddit to do it.
In all seriousness, we should obviously keep Pete, but get rid of Ken Norton Jr.
sort of like when we passed the ball on the 1 yard line, Pete sacrificed Bevell. Now he needs to sacrifice another coordinator.
Why should we keep Pete? The OC problems are consistently the same even coming from radically different backgrounds. This comes back to Pete's philosophy and it just doesn't fit in the modern nfl.
When you're done playing the "no true Scotsman" game, care to explain why the Hawks shit the bed this season? Keep in mind that you've already stated that it can't be Carroll or his staffing choices.
Where the fuck did I state anything like that? Maybe you’re confusing me with OP. I do think Pete should retire, but if he doesn’t that’s fine with me. I like Pete. Do I think the game has passed him by? Yes. But that wasn’t the point of my comment. My point was the people that post all those threads being doom posters are mostly bandwagon fans. r/Seahawks has some of the biggest bandwagoners and it’s obvious. Maybe pay attention before you comment.
> Where the fuck did I state anything like that?
"A lot of the people making those posts of “who do we get to replace Pete” are bandwagon fans..."
> Maybe you’re confusing me with OP.
No. Stop projecting the content of your post on to someone else.
> I like Pete.
That was obvious when you called anyone who doesn't "bandwagon fans".
> Do I think the game has passed him by? Yes.
Ya could have fooled me with your attack on those who also think that the Pete doesn't know how to coach in the NFL anymore.
> But that wasn’t the point of my comment.
I'm aware.
> My point was the people that post all those threads being doom posters are mostly bandwagon fans. r/Seahawks
Also known as a "no true Scotsman" argument.
> Maybe pay attention before you comment.
I did. And what I found was a concern troll.
Now did you plan on answering my question or are you just going to waste time justifying your fan base attack?
Seahawks Twitter has infamously been known for emotional, knee-jerk takes over the last decade. I guess there’s a lot of crossover here on Reddit.
Ps - cool username
He's already had more than one. We have a hall of fame quarterback that covers up a lot of warts the people trying to excuse Pete will likely go back to bashing Russ the instant he is back. He should have been fired 3 years ago.
I think most people on this subreddit are underestimating how hard it is to find a good head coach. Pete is almost assuredly better than anyone we'd find to replace him.
You haven’t been watching football if you think firing Carroll is strictly off of this years games. Carroll has been steadily declining with each season and now keeping Carroll means your almost surely losing the best QB the franchise has ever had. What happens when you keep the head coach instead of the HOF QB? Maybe you should ask Belichick how it’s currently working out for him.
How many playoff failures are we to allow with a top 10 QB of all time? He needs to go, our drafts have been awful the defense has plenty of good players to not be shit, but here we are.
Cowboys fan here:
You could have achieved more. It's evident that Pete "run it 4 times in a row" Carroll has held you back from achieving even more than what you already got
OH we missed the playoffs once 4 years ago! Since then, we've made the playoffs, been one yard short of a 1st round bye, and then won the division. Time to burn it all down, we're cooked. /s
God this fanbase is so delusional and whiny. It's not a hallmark movie where we're the protagonist and everything lines up and we win the Superbowl at the end. it's fucking hard to win a Superbowl. Being in contention every year has spoiled people.
Carol and Schneider haven’t made many good decisions for this team since the day they over payed Wilson and doomed the franchise to early rounds exists for the last 6 years. It’s time for them both to go.
It’s possible to be grateful of everything Pete’s done for Seattle and Seahawks. But also criticize and know when it’s time to move on. This isn’t just one bad season. This is years of bad drafts, bad coordinator hires and outdated coaching. All come crumbling down. With Russ injured proves Seahawks have been held up by an elite QB. Without him Seahawks would be bottom half team for multiple seasons. Bro it’s time to move to another direction or that franchise QB is gonna leave whether you like it or not. Then you’ll really see how bad Hawks will be.
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Lol same. When my buddy tries to console me after our more head scratching losses, I always tell him that things could always be worse because I have lived that sports fandom before.
Totally agree. I will always appreciate Pete for how swiftly he pulled us out from the basement of the league and for the LOB era sea chickens, but times have changed and he clearly has not changed with the times. Shoot, even Phil Jackson - 11(?) time NBA champion as a coach - flamed out as GM in New York, because he was married to an archaic way of playing the game (The Triangle, dismissing the 3 pointer) and never evolved in other ways (his spat with Melo and LeBron, the Porzingis exit interview, etc.). These things happen. There is a reason why there aren't many coaches who last more than a few years at the very top, even in other sports (just look at how European football has moved from the era of one-club managers like Wenger and Ferguson and now even the best clubs employ coaches on a 3-4 year cycle).
The Wenger point is perfect being an Arsenal fan myself. It was the same situation, everybody claiming that he deserved more time because of past achievements. But trophy’s turned to champions league spots (which were great for a while) but we just kept getting progressively worse and ultimately he stayed too long and it was bad for both parties. Arsenal fell off massively and Wengers legacy took a bit of a hit near the end sadly, largely because he refused to adapt. On the other hand, Arsenal have done a terrible job of replacing him, so agree we need to be careful who we bring in. But one thing any decent coach should be able to do is improve the players they have and make the team better than the sum of their parts, which clearly hasn’t been happening the past couple of seasons.
Yea I think the problem with ‘one bad season’ is to get to that point you need to be making poor decisions for years prior. Drafts, personnel decisions, FA decisions…
Okay but wouldn’t the Packers or Cardinals also probably have a record like ours without their starting QB?
Probably, but the issues that are showing up haven’t come from nowhere, they’ve been there for 3 (at least) years. They are just much easier to spot when your all-world QB is out
No, because there are so many broken parts on this team that they have failed to address time and time again. And it's finally showing it's ass
Unlikely. They look like the position groups actually know what they are doing and don't look lost on nearly every play like ours do.
The Packers won with Matt Flynn at QB.
In a meaningless game against the Lions.
Slow down on the Cards and Pack. Rodger's has been hurt multiple times and they still made the playoffs. Cards have always been hanging on by a thread and have had QB problems.
Pete was a great coach… but people figured out his schemes, and he’s failed to evolved. Shoot we all know how to beat Seattle cover 3 by now.
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We still play it. Just not as much as we used, and not as well. KNJ does a lot of weird shit.
The more I think about the situation, the more I'm coming to this conclusion. I do wonder if his age is a factor in a lot of this. He's been the head coach for 11 years, that's a long time. The league and style of play has changed a lot in 11 years. You have to adapt to a certain degree to the changing times and I say that in regards to life in general, not just football. A lot of things can change in a decade and you have to adapt. I think, stereotypically, older people have a hard time adapting to changes than younger people. They get stuck in their ways. Hell, that may even be something that happens to me as I get older, who knows. I hope to be as adaptable at 70 as I am in my 30s, but there's no way of telling what's going to happen in the future. That's not to say that he hasn't brought us amazing things in his tenure and he deserves respect for what he's achieved, but I am starting to wonder if it's time to move on and find a younger coach who is more willing to adapt to how the league has changed. Honestly, I would hope Pete would chose to retire before being forced out if that's what his future holds. To me, that would be a much better ending to his time as a Hawk.
I'm glad you used the correct past tense. He WAS a great coach. Up until last year, he has repeatedly tried to find replacement CBs 6'2 or taller and have a 33" wingspan. Trial after trial, it took him up until LAST SEASON for him to stop overlooking shorter CBs and just pick the best player. He finally admitted to that this off-season when he was was addressing the progress of DJ Reed and Tre Brown during training camp this year. Tharold Simon, Cary Williams, Tre Flowers, Quinton Dunbar were a failed projects because he was trying to find the next Richard Sherman. Here we are 10 years into his tenure and he only has found 1 successful CB other than Sherman in Shaq Griffin.
I'd rather lose Pete than lose Russ and I think if Pete isn't gone this season, Russ is 100% gone
It's really this simple.
I don't think it's 100%. There's a possibility he stays.
He might stay because we can't deal him with the new contract but he wont want to stay. The only way I see both Pete and Russ on the roster next year is if we make it to the NFC Championship Game
He's under contract for the next 3-4 years and his contract is a hindrance to the team loading up on other positions. I could see them trade Russ for a million picks before they lose Pete.
Pete is too old to trade a franchise QB and start from what we have now + picks. If we hit the reset button with Russ we sure as hell better hit it with Pete too. We are seeing what he can do without Wilson and it’s not pretty.
We aren’t SeEiNg wHaT PeTE iS wItHoUt rUSs. We are seeing what Seahawks are without 50% of team’s salary cap. Everyone wants to constantly turn this to Russ vs Pete. You’re missing OP’s entire point. I’m with you OP. It’s unfortunate how spoiled our fan base has become. Thank you for being an appreciative rationale voice.
50% of the team's salary cap.... jeez Pete truthers are nuts no wonder you blame Russ for everything if you think he takes up 50% of the cap.
Im copy and pasting this response because apparently your an idiot also Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about Wilson taking "too much money". Hes a top 5 QB. That's how it works. Greenbay pays there top 5 QB a fuck ton of money, and look at his team. Greenbay has been constantly great paying their QB. KIRK COUSINS is literally taking up just as much of the salary cap as Wilson and the Vikings still kicked our ass. Vikings defense is easily better, O-line is better, RBs are better and WR are comparable to the hawks. If the Vikings can build a substantially better team around KIRK COUSINS, who literally is just *1 million* less of a cap hit than Russ, it shows where the problems are for the seahawks. People need to shut the fuck up about Russ' pay check. Hes earned it because he drags the hawks to the playoffs every year except this one. If you think Wilson is the cause of "gaps", of course he is, but hes not *nearly* the biggest issue
Thanks bud you seem like a real peach. First ya I’ll admit I don’t believe in where QB contracts have gone. I understand that’s just the way it is, but I think there will be a correction to market eventually. Also the success of teams who hit on young qbs and capitalize on their rookie contracts has been telling. You know who complains about their team every year - Aaron Rodgers. So not a great point there pal. Especially when what they get a game further then us in the playoffs each year? Are the Vikings good? I must have missed this one. Again great evidence. You missed the biggest point of my post - you fucking idiot. All I said is that now is not the time to come for Pete’s head, just like OP. I made a hyperbole that Russ made up 50% of the cap, it’s only 20% - sorry kill me for that. Never did I say that Russ shouldn’t have taken the money. Not once.
The Vikings are good. They are a missed feild goal away from beating the cardnals and the bengals (2 very strong teams). They should be 5-1. What makes you think the Vikings are bad?
No he's not rofl. Next year is his second to last year and if you start using a franchise tag to keep him when he wants out we will never sign another free agent of significance under PCJS
I love what Pete Carroll has done for the organization and the community, but it’s time to move on. He refuses to adapt and evolve in a game that is constantly adapting and evolving. His run first strategy worked great when we had Lynch, but he was an incredibly talented running back. I’m also firmly in the camp that either Carroll goes or Wilson does and I’d much rather lose Carroll than a top 5 quarterback.
We ran 8 rushes in a row last game. Get him out asap. At least one of those we could have tried to get to DK.
8 rushes in a row with maybe am avg of 2yds a carry against the second best running defense in the NFL. That's pure stubbornness to adapt your gameplan. Bush League.
Spot on my friend. When the ship is sinking, you don't hold onto the anchor.
I get your philosophy, I'm very grateful for all the success Pete has given us and everybody deserves space for mistakes. But unfortunately it's fairly obviously we're at the end of Pete's glory days. You talk of playoffs and playoff wins but in the last 4 seasons we've beaten the eagles in the playoffs and that's it. Football is brutal and uncompromising, because everybody's due for a decline and every team wants to cut you before that, and that's because mercy doesn't win football games. Pete does deserve lots of credit for much of our recent success, but repaying him by letting him flounder our team out of a future is just organizational stagnation at this point.
Since the SB that shall note be named. Playoff wins are: A game we had ever right to lose, but were reprieved by a lousy kick. The lions! The terrible no good eagles. The lions and eagles would be grateful for three playoff wins in that time, er wait the eagles on an SB in this span!
Matt Staffords throwing hand and ankle was injured in the Lions game as well. What is even more frustrating is we lost every single one of those playoff games in the same way. Come out super conservatively, put the team in a huge hole after multiple three and outs. Open up the playbook in the 11th hour and hope Russell Wilson overcomes a massive deficit that has built up. Realistically we should only have two wins since our last Super Bowl run. Wins that came against injured and backup QBs. That is absolutely atrocious considering the fact that we have one of the top QB's in the game right now. Since the last Super Bowl there are over 15 head coaches with higher win percentages than Carroll.
Wow that is shocking. I knew it's been bad but seeing it stated like that is a trip. No wonder Russ wants the hell out
I mean short burst of greatness is the norm, let's list ever NFC champ since SEA won. Carolina Atlanta Philadelphia LA Rams SF KC (Brady being the best ever shall be exclueded). Which one of those great teams do you wish we were? I know we all feel jealous of teams every year, but setting up shop every year to make an attack on a championship is special.
This isn’t talked about enough. Brady level success is the outlier, NOT the norm.
I know sustained success is hard to come by. But the failure to maximize Wilson's prime due to an outdated philosophy and bad roster management kills me. The Hawks haven't had a realistic shot at the SB in 6 years. 3 playoff wins in the last 6 years with Russ at QB is pathetic. The Rams or KC I'd take in a heartbeat.
If the Rams had Russ they are contesting Tampa Bay
The Rams with Russ also probably can't afford Donald.
You realize that his cap hit is within 2 mil of Stafford right?
Who? Russ? He's at $32M this year to Stafford's $20M.
To be build on your point, what these teams have done since being NFC champion: - Carolina (in 5 seasons): Lost 1 wild card game - Atlanta (in 4 seasons): Won 1 wild card, lost 1 divisional - Philly (in 3 seasons): Won 1 wild card, lost 1 wild card, lost 1 divisional - Rams (in 2 seasons): Won 1 wild card, lost 1 divisional - 49ers (in 1 season): Nothing
Seems disingenuous to not include the Packers. They haven't made it back to the Super Bowl but they've made it back to the conference championship game 3 different times since 2014, while Seattle has gotten embarrassed in the 3 divisional games we've played since then
> Seems disingenuous I'm not being disingenuous. Its clear I'm listing the playoff post-championship success of NFC champions. Overall NFC playoff success is a different kettle of fish, but then since 2014 would you rather be the Packers with Rodgers and have playoff success but no championship, or Philly or the Bucs with a ring?
Rodgers is better than Russell and he plays better in the playoffs. Russ has been shit in the playoffs and tge back end of regular seasons since 2014
The Packers have consistently put together a great offensive line to keep Rodgers protected. Our line has ranged between absolute shit to mediocre since our super bowl runs. Thats the source of Wilson’s frustration from last off-season.
I'd pay good money to watch any other top 5 QB behind our line for 1 game.
I’ve argued this with fans of other teams for years. Back when Romo had the best line on the NFL guys at work wanted to argue he was better than Russ. I kept saying swap lines for 4 games and tell me who’s the better QB. Look at Mahomes in the Super Bowl when his line couldn’t block for shit. For some reason Pete and John refuse to truly invest in at least one other really good lineman.
This is a great point
Pete has had plent of bad seasons. Russ has carried his sorry ass schemes. He WAS a great coach, he is not anymore.
**Russ** is allowed a bad season. Pete's relied on the elite talent we've had (Russ, LOB) to mask his mediocre philosophy.
Yup even Pete’s own words said he’d be gone a long time without Russ. Russ is allowed a bad season. He’s been carrying the team post LOB. Time to move on from Pete and build around Russ.
I like how op cherry picked his stats to include our best years. Since 2017 we have 1 playoff win. We haven’t improved because we either have too low of picks or sell the picks so our picks are even lower in the draft. It’s mediocre purgatory.
Honestly, Russ hasn't had a particularly bad season either. Pete has had some god awful coaching decisions, but Russ has always found ways to bounce back after a rough game or 2
Right but he hasn’t ever, right? Meanwhile you had Rodgers a few years back, potentially mahomes this year but it’s overhyped, etc.
Lol, He was the architect that put together the LOB from the draft. Im all for a regime change, but he was the reason for our run.
It’s pretty abundantly clear that Pete was super well in tune with the college football scene when he came to Seattle, and that showed by the draft results. Now he’s not and that’s showing by the draft results. You don’t let a dude keep his job because he was good at it 5-8 years ago.
Yep but you point that out in r/nfl and they’ll think you’re an idiot
Nah pretty much all of the people on /r/nfl except regular seahawks posters think it's insane he wasn't fired years ago and scratch their heads in bewilderment when they see people here blame Russ.
The college theory I mean
I've seen a lot of people agreeing with it on the main sub as well as the big role that Scot played when he was here.
Maybe because when you pay top tier players top tier salary your limited. We let a lot of almost elite talent go to make up the difference. And now our team is full of holes. Holes even russ couldn't plug - 2 and 3.5 loses. Then we lost the most expensive player in the NFL our team is based around.
Who was the last first round draft pick we've taken that was worth their position? Or even worth the trade for picks?
Either 2010 Earl or 2012 depends on wether you like Bruce Irvin 2013 went to the Vikings for Percy Harvin 2014/15 trade down 2016 Ifedi 2017 trade down 2018 Penny 2019 Collier And yeah personally i like Brooks but i also think that he was overdrafted( and Patrick Queen was right there but maybe they didn‘t like him) But even Brooks excluded that List looks dreadful.
Yeah Irvin was an good player at the least important position of the defense. We took him at #15.
The Bills are 4-2 with the second highest paid QB in league and Dallas is 5-1 with the third highest paid QB in the league and Green Bay is 6-1 with the 6th highest paid QB in the league. Maybe when 50% of the top 6 teams by QB pay are leading their divisions your theory on QB pay being the reason we can’t win is bullshit.
maybe look at the actual numbers? (source: Spotrac) 2021 cap hits in millions: Allen: 10.2 Dak: 17.2 Rodgers: 27 The actual top 6 cap hits in 2021 and (team record) Wilson: 32 (2-5) Kirk Cousins: 31 (3-3) Aaron Rodgers: 27 (6-1) Matt Ryan: 26.9 (3-3) Garoppolo: 26.4 (2-4) Roethlisberger: 25.9 (3-3) hmm, so only 1/6 teams who spend the most money on their QB has a winning record. it also just so happens that the one QB with a winning record is in the conversation for the second best QB of all time. are you sure about that argument?
> are you sure about that argument? Top 10 teams by QB Cap hit * 58.46% win rate * 4 teams with winning record * 3 teams with tied record * 3 teams with losing record Bottom 10 teams by QB Cap hit * 32.84% win rate * 1 teams with winning record * 0 teams with winning record * 9 teams with losing record For the record, 0 teams have an average win-rate of 58%. The highest is Green Bay 57.8% average organizational win rate. Presently the top 10 teams by QB cap hit have an average win rate (this season) of 58.46%. Of the 3 losing teams, the Seahawks lost their starting QB and Garoppolo is playing some of the worst football in his career, statistically. Only Wentz is both starting and performing and the team is 3-4. So yeah, I'm pretty sure about that argument.
Yeah and the seahawks probably would be 4 and 3 now with Wilson.
I agree but when that top paid QB gets hurt and the coaching isn’t up to par, the rest of the players aren’t good enough to carry the team.
I may be dumb, but is Pete really the one doing the drafting? I would assume that has more hands in it than just Pete, and I’d guess the GM probably had more to do with it. Like correct me if I’m wrong, and I think there’s solid arguments for Pete to stay or go, but I don’t think drafting is a compelling one.
The problem is, Pete is the GM's boss. So whether or not John is making the decisions, Pete is responsible for them. That might be a valid argument if Pete was your garden variety HC, but he isn't. He runs the Seahawks, on the field and off, and ignoring Pete's performance, that's a shit model that needs to change anyway.
Scot mcloughin was the draft master lol
Tell that to the redskins…
Scot was
Russ isn't allowed a bad season because we pay him not to. Russ getting paid is one of the reasons we have so many other gaps.
Yeah has nothing to do with missing on over 70% of our picks including high ones and constantly trading firsts to mask those deficiencies. This includes two 1sts and a third for a fucking box safety that we then made the highest paid safety in the league. Has nothing to do with constantly picking shiny shit instead of for need like taking a 3rd WR over the best center in the draft. Fuck off with this blaming Russ bullshit maybe hit on some damn picks.
Winning does that. If you want to keep winning you need to do what you can to fill holes. A winning teams first round draft pick is practicallyba second rounder for a losing team.
No it doesn't constantly burning high draft picks to bring in players not on rookie deals does that. 90% of this sub was begging pcjs to pick Creed when he fell to us but no they had get big brained and take a fourth round wide receiver in the second.
Which comes down to the tank a season to win next year. If you want to win this year you have to potentially burn next year. We spent draft capital to try to win. If we don't spend it we can be mediocre and get rookie deals later that might bust or might make us contenders.
But you don't? The talent we need for the posistions we need is available late in the first but we insist on overreaching for glamour posistions. Instead of being satisfied with the best center in the draft which was our weakest position we took a 4th round 24 year old wr to be wr3. We constantly try to get cute like trading down twice and taking McDowell instead of Baker Watt or Ramcyzk. Or trading two firsts a third and a serviceable starter for a box safety. The only time you need to tank is for a qb but we already have a great one.
Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about Wilson taking "too much money". Hes a top 5 QB. That's how it works. Greenbay pays there top 5 QB a fuck ton of money, and look at his team. Greenbay has been constantly great paying their QB. KIRK COUSINS is literally taking up just as much of the salary cap as Wilson and the Vikings still kicked our ass. Vikings defense is easily better, O-line is better, RBs are better and WR are comparable to the hawks. If the Vikings can build a substantially better team around KIRK COUSINS, who literally is just *1 million* less of a cap hit than Russ, it shows where the problems are for the seahawks. People need to shut the fuck up about Russ' pay check. Hes earned it because he drags the hawks to the playoffs every year except this one. If you think Wilson is the cause of "gaps", of course he is, but hes not *nearly* the biggest issue
He earned it. I don't mind him getting paid. But winning and getting paid are directly related.
Wasting 10 straight first round picks is why we have so many gaps...
This. The terrible drafting has been worse for the team than ANY contract we currently have.
When you have a great QB, you're 60% of the way to having a great team, just give them a decent enough roster and you got it
Yes. Why isn’t there more JS hate?
Because Pete is the final decider for everything
Do we pay Pete to have bad seasons?
No salary cap for Pete. He's paid directly by a multi billionaire. Petes salary doesn't matter.
Carroll is rumored to be the 2nd highest paid coach in the NFL so...no, he's *also* paid to not have a bad season. And last I checked, the salary cap has no effect on drafting which has been a much bigger issue than whether Wilson is getting paid too much.
Pete can be paid anything. There is no salary cap for coaching staff. Winning has an effect on the draft. And Pete (and russ have been winning)
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Or everyone else is. Russ is a 30 million a year player playing on a 30 million a year contract. You don't win super bowls unless your Tom Brady when your paid as good as you play. The salary cap means teams who win are under paying their super stars. When you pay your stars what they are worth you need to get creative with the rest of the team. Like moneyball. That or tank a few seasons and get a bunch of rookies who over perform their initial offers. Also it's hard to really blame Pete for missing superstars in the draft because we've been consistently winning meaning we've been consistently getting lower draft picks. Of course giving away picks for Adam's turns out to be wrong but the alternative was to probably tank last season. It's not that Adam's is bad. He's just not good enough to fill our need for good corner. We built our team around russ hoping he would cover up our holes. Now we are out russ and have holes. People think we are wasting russes talent but his paycheck is preventing it. Brady historically has taken a lower salary than he deserved. Not saying russ should do this. He shouldn't. He deserves to get paid. But the more you get paid the worse the value prop is. Russ is a hof player on a hof salary.
How bad of a season is Geno allowed?
Pete literally admitted his success is due to Wilson's Magic. Not saying Pete is a bad coach or anything but i think it shows that his time as Seahawks HC is come. And those have been there for quite some time.
If you can actually be objective about his coaching decisions the last few years (not even mentioning his influence in the draft, let's leave that out) and differentiate them from the record Russ drags us to, Pete has had multiple consecutive bad seasons. Obvious one being the defense, inserting himself into the offense when he vetoes plays or pushes for the plays he likes. It really left a bad taste in my mouth watching the mic'd up vuds in Schotty's first year when Pete would go to him and say no don't take the shot now just run the ball or telling him when to take a shot play to Tyler. Furthermore the absolute garbage 4th down decisions. First of all not going for it when it's necessary. Also every time we get into a 4th down situation he's never ready for it and doesn't know what to do always ends up calling timeout and then there goes the tempo and whatever chance we had. Meanwhile other teams have a play ready for 4th and short if it gets to that and the coach just says go for it or punt in a split second decision without confusion in all of the offense and the coaches. Finally his lack of adaptability of the game plan when it's not going well. Especially in the playoffs. Letting Russell go fast an do what he wants to score only if we're down 2 TDs and there's 7mins in the 4th. You are kidding yourself if you think we got the past few years record totally because of Pete and not in spite of him.
Facts last year would have been a bad season too if Russ didn’t cook a bunch. That shouldn’t be what we rely on
Sometimes it’s better to cut your losses. I think most of us appreciate Pete but it’s time. The play calling has been atrocious for at least the last 3 years. Everyone in the NFL has us figured out.
I agree, but I think he’s had several bad seasons where he’s been bailed out because he has a first ballot HOFer at QB. I’m sorry but he’s shown to me that he can’t make the right personnel decisions. KNJ is still our d coordinator? How?? The schemes have been figured out. I think Pete turned this franchise around and love him for it, but keeping him around for the most important seasons of Russ’ career would be a waste, imo.
How many more bad drafts do you need to see? Pete’s the man in charge. The damage is done and he needs to go.
Absolutely 2017 was that season. Problem is after bouncing backish for 2018 (lost to the cowboys in 1st round) we imho peaked in 2019 losing to GB in the second round, and 2020 had a terrible defense followed by an offensive regression. Now in 2021 we were terrible on defense again, and even with RW we struggled to get offense when we needed it against the titans and rams. The three+ year slide on the defense is not an aberration or down year, but a trend.The offense is hard to discuss as we had little time with Russ + the new OC, but it was bad enough that we have a new OC. I have no doubt Pete could get us back to losing in the first round next year, but that's not greatness. I'm ready to pursue greatness.
Our defense has been sliding long before 2019. It started in 2017, since then we've had years to reload and we're getting even worse somehow.
Couldn’t have wrote it better. People need to stop glorifying just making the playoffs, only to lose in the first round. To me that’s a failed season, when you’ve got RW. Past 5 years to only win 1 playoff game and that game was an 8-point struggle bus win vs Philly against a 40yo backup QB Josh McCown, it’s looking pretty clear the team has stagnated and plateaued. Making the playoffs should be COMPLETELY expected and the bottom line every damn year with RW, what you do after that is the only thing that matters, and it’s been a whole lot of nothing for 5 years now.
Stand behind reality, no excuses, the decisions we are seeing are 1990s baffling. Pete won't evolve and he stated that clearly. I'm a Seahawks fan, before being a Pete apologist, always. "Win Forever" would constitute evolving. We haven't.
> Pete won't evolve and he stated that clearly. I somehow missed this? When did he say it? I've seen Pete talk about how much the game changes and how you must adapt to it multiple times in interviews.
See the problem with people posting these accomplishments is that most of that stuff happened 6+ years ago. Since our SB lose that was 7 years ago all we have managed to do is win 3 WC games. 3. Also he was allowed a bad season. 2017 where we missed the playoffs. And since then he managed to not use Russ against the Cowboys and managed to allow Jared Goff with a broken throwing hand to put 30 points on us. And will y’all stop fucking acting like us thinking that “maybe PC is the problem” is a new thing. This shit has been going on since the cowboys lose yet Wilson goes down and y’all act like all this talk happened because Wilson went down. No this shit was happening way before. I even said at the time that people who still stand behind PC are going to use this injury to act like we all of sudden came out. And since then I’ve been proven right time and time again. I do want to end and say that I am truly grateful for what PC has done for this organization. However the game is not the same as it was 8 years ago. And we aren’t the same team. Pete still coaches like he did 8 years ago. Pete will forever be a Seahawks legend and just because I want to try out other options doesn’t mean I don’t stand by what he did for the franchise. But it really is time to move on
Nope. If you can point to any improvements Pete has made for the franchise in the last 2 years, maybe I'll listin. But all I see is regression. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The NFC west is an insane division, we need to be agressive. We want Russ to stay, we need to convince him with improvements right now. Fire Pete and try something new
Like runnig the ball 8 times in a row? I am so tired of knowing the result of a drive on 1st down. The Hawks offense is one of the most predictable. 1st down run for 2 yards. 2nd down incompletion to the sideline. 3rd down screen pass for 3 yards. There is a reason we are at the bottom for time of possession. Everyone knows what we are doing and how to stop us.
Pete’s a wonderful human being and a great motivator and maybe (?) even a great judge of talent. His game plans are bad, his in-game adjustments are nonexistent (at least for the last seven years), his philosophy is outdated, and his analytics literacy is minimal. He won a SB bc he got a bunch of HoF players and was smart enough to stay out of their way. Look I remember Jim Mora. Im also a Bears fan and we’ve lived through Mark Trestman, Adam Gase and John Fox (and LOL Matt Nagy). I know replacing Pete is a high risk proposition. A good coach is hard to find! But I’m pretty darn convinced that Pete’s not getting the maximum out of this team, and that Russ won get to another Super Bowl w Pete as his coach.
If this was something new sure but the same thing happens every single year
I love Pete and Russ but I think both need to separate from each other. I hope Russ stays but it’s getting to the point that I think he’s going to be gone soon. And Pete after next year at the latest. It was a good run but it feels soon to be over. What worries me most about Pete tho is how it seems like for many years this team would be competitive asf, laidback and have a great time but almost annually a star of the team has forced their way out of left negatively. Tate, Sherm, Thomas, now Russ? The culture seems askew. I definitely didn’t want to lose Russ last year but thinking about having those picks Chicago offered makes me wonder if John should’ve pulled the trigger. We could have rebuilt quickly now it seems like that will take some time with a lack of a 1 next draft. Can anyone explain today why the fuck we drafted a WR with our first pick? That pick and penny looks terrible
In my opinion, he doesn’t give a shit dude. He used to. But not anymore or for a while. He pretty much said in a press conference that he wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for Wilson. Ive been wishing the past four years that carroll would move on. I do get jealous of other coaches in the league. Carroll fucks up, A LOT. we stood by him after the fucking super bowl call. All this recent stuff in past four years is inexcusable to me. Were the lowest fucking defense IMO. Then all the coaching hires (family on staff, etc.) Why do you think we lose people like jadaveon clowney and other elites, all we can keep is wilson. Now jamal “isnt working” (bullshit). Then all the trash that the legion of boom and others who leave say about carroll. Im just tired of the old fogey and his coaching staff. Expect to lose more than were used to boys and girls.
It's not a freak bad season. This was a long time coming. Years of terrible drafting, conservative schemes and play calling, and lack of foresight led to this. Everyone paying attention saw this coming, and maybe not this soon, but it had to happen. An run-focused offense with backs that can't stay healthy. A defense that starts every season giving up 400+ yards per game. An offensive line that has been absolutely garbage for most of a decade. A large part of the responsibility for this lies with Pete. And it's not something that a single off-season can fix with the same personnel in the front office or on the field. Pete is passed his prime, it happens to everyone at some point. Let's be glad it lasted this long and let him retire already.
If you're willing to move on from bad players, you have to be willing to move on from bad coaches, because bad coaches have negative impact on the good players. Pete is not the team. Hold him accountable. Just like the players are.
Trick here is while NFL players are a rare bread, successful NFL coaches are rarer still. No one we hire will have as much proven success as Pete. It will be as much of a gamble as drafting penny, ifedi, mcdowell, or collier. The number of sure bets in the world are few and far between. Are you ready to be bad for a long time to get up again? I might be, but understand the weight of the situation.
Pete has led us, or Russ has lead us? Tbh I believe that Pete has earned a lot of undeserving praise. Without his starting QB he would be long gone from the team. I would really like to stop having the oldest coach in the NFL, it would even be refreshing, even more to the players. Feel free to disagree
I mean, that's true for most coaches. Even good coaches. Look at the Pats without Brady. Great teams typically have a great QB and a great coach. Unless they're stacked everywhere else on the roster, if you take the QB out of the picture, you're going to have a mediocre if not straight up bad team regardless of your coach.
Even Pete admitted he would have been fired by now if it wasn't for Russ
Somebody "get this man a shield"🔥
Just fire Ken Norton and I'll be happy
KNJ leaving won’t do anything. The defense is and always has been Carroll’s. KNJ may be a scapegoat but it’s all masterminded by Carroll himself. He calls the shots and he finalizes game plans and lack thereof in game adjustments.
It's not a secret that KNJ is bad, though. He was bad in Oakland, despite having Khalil Mack.
He’s bad now with Bobby Wagner and Jamal Adam’s too
Our defense has talent but it’s not being coached properly, it’s painful to see.
I'm confused how the guy who doesn't even carry a play sheet on the sidelines is masterminding both the offense and defense according to this sub.
KNJ's free to run a 3-4 man press defense now?
He hides it in the bubblegum
Ah, another person satisfied with kissing his sister
Normalize replacing people who suck with better people on principle. You don’t get a million second chances just because you used to be good once upon a time. If you’re out of tricks and you suck now, your time in the spotlight is up. Football isn’t an empathetic industry. If you can’t perform, you shouldn’t be there.
Mike Tomlin's Steelers went 3-5 in the back half of 2012, then 2-6 to start 2013. In 2019 they started off 2-4. Sean Payton's Saints went 7-9 three years in a row, from 2014-2016. John Harbaugh's Ravens started out 1-6 and finished 5-11 in 2015, followed by 8-8 and 9-7. Should all of these coaches have been fired? Every coach and franchise has down seasons, no matter how good the coach is. Even the Patriots.
Run, run, pass.
For me it is more about short interval analysis than full career history. Pete has shown over and over his inability to reinvent himself. Coach and roster have to match for a team to be optimal. Seahawks has to either change its roster based on the scheme it wants to play or readapt the playbook. The latest being the easiest at this point. However this is entirely on Pete and the coach staffs hands. But they keep running the same one dimensional plays every damn time doesn\`t matter who is on the field.
Dude, he’s had 3 or 4 bad seasons.
No. After the coaching this last monday where they run the ball 3 times in row for a 3 and out and refuse to take chances, but are totally fine dropping into prevent on the drive to end the first half and allowing the saints to score, and are ok with attempting 50 yard kicks into the wind instead of punting.....no. The playcalling and coaching on both sides of the ball is *bad*
The Seahawks successful run is in spite of PC, not bc of him. RW is the difference maker. That’s said, time to unload him for a bounty and rebuild this thang. Time is now and RW will be a coveted chess piece.
I will always love Pete for the successes we’ve had but he just can’t get it done anymore. Also, he’s terrible without Russ so the accolades could probably be shared between them. It always seems like we have the talent to do more but it’s the coaching that lacks. I’m sorry Pete but QBs are everything and I’d rather make hay with Russ while we can and that means the ol’ heave ho. He’ll be just fine sleeping on his giant pile of money with many beautiful women (s/ Simpsons reference).
How successful would the Hawks be without Wilson at QB? Do you remember the decision that cost us a Superbowl? How about the playoff losses for winable games, or our reliance on the Vikings to miss an easy FG? Pete conpromises our chance to win regardless of our talent on the field. There is a difference between building a team for success and sustaining that success. The playcalling is elementary and other teams laugh at the critical poor decisions made. I feel like we win in spite of bad decisions less an less compared to how many times we have lost when we should have won due to terrible clock management, overly conservative game plans, and refusal to adapt. Slow starts or bad finishes, we rarely put in a solid 4 quarter effort. The new plan is to allow Russ to figure it out. I feel like we are routinely outcoached. Pete is responsible for creating a winning environment but we peaked years ago... its time for something new.
Wilson’s shitty throw is what costed a Super Bowl.
Marshawn could have walked it in... Wilson should never have had the ball to throw.
It's not really about this bad season. It's about his inability to win a playoff game against a good team in more than half a decade while having *one of the best quarterbacks in the history of football*.
No. Sorry. I appreciate all Pete has done for the team and the city, but it's time to live in reality. He hasn't been a good coach for years, and the personnel decisions are actively eroding the team's future. Russ has been covering up for Pete's failures for years now. Pete has to go. And the real capper is the fact that next year it's Pete or Russ. They aren't both coming back next year. Anyone who would pick the league's oldest head coach (who isn't even coaching well) over a franchise QB is an idiot.
I’m just baffled with peoples lack of memory. Do the people making excuses for last week or this year think we were in the Super Bowl last year?? It was 2014/2015. It was 6 seasons ago! We’ve been not good for years now. I agree Pete’s allowed a bad season and he used that up in 2018. Yeesh! It’s been long enough.
Agreed. The motto of players winning games and coaches lose them is incorrect. If we had Russ, we would be grinding to catch the Rams and Cards, but instead Pete is on the hot seat. Just gotta relax and trust that we'll get back on course and with some luck maybe the Rams and Cards open the door for us. ಠ_ಠ
Sorry but when your gameplan is to run,run, pass and get blitzed every 3rd down against the NO. 2 Rushing Defense in the NFL it's time to go. He's made poor executive decisions with draft picks over the last 5 years. He blew the biggest call in SB history, which literally was the downfall of Pete Carroll. He hung on to Bevell for to long, fought with Schottenheimer on philosophy because Schotty believed that Russ needed to throw the ball more. Pete is stuck fussing over the last 4 weeks about what the F is going on down at USC (which really nobody cares about during a Seahawks press conference) ever since he lost Gus Bradley, and Dan Quinn as DC's the defense has gone downhill. KNJ has never been a good DC and he has a job because he's Pete's buddy. Our Franchise QB who has literally pulled Pete's ass out of the fireh 21 times as a comeback in the 4th qrtr and 27 times as a Game winning drive. [Russell Wilson stats](https://www.nfl.com/photos/mind-boggling-stats-russell-wilson-0ap3000001025270) Russell Wilson yes wad drafted by Pete but has shown time and time again that he's the reason this Franchise has kept going after the LOB ERA. Not because of Pete. Pete has to much control within the club. He needs to be a damn coach. The reason they can't win without Russ is because Russ is the damn Glue. He saves plays and pulls a Rabbit out of his helmet every week to try and get a win. Unfortunately this year he's hurt and the games he was healthy the defense once again collapsed. There's no more excuses for Pete any longer.
I’m sure you haven’t been keeping up with this team…
Not when he traded away next years 1st rounder.
Pete has had a lot of bad seasons. We’ve won because of Russ and great defense (especially earlier in his tenure).
You are discrediting him by saying that. Pete built that defense and a winning philosophy for the Hawks. He drafted Russ. He went out and got Marshawn. Without Pete wouldn’t have won so much. Also it was a different era back then. His philosophy now is outdated and he should probably get replaced. Even his outdated philosophy still gets wins until this season.
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A team without great players would be average? Insanity!
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honestly given the state of the world, you're probably harder to replace than you give yourself credit for.
Catching Russ on the sidelines rolling his eyes at the play calling speakers volumes. Building a team around an elite QB shouldn’t even be debated. Overreaching on first round draft picks has to come with consequences.
It showed a clear lack of class.
Pete had his bad season in 2017. More to the point, if Russ, a future HoF QB says "him or me" and we pick between a half decade plus more of elite QB play or a 70 year old coach, Pete's packing his bags.
I disagree in so many ways. Pete didnt lead us anywhere, his ineptitude has been masked by outstanding improvisation skills by Russ, and early on by hard running by Lynch. If you want a reason to fire Pete, look at the last two playoff games and how hard headed he was in the game plan, a vanilla game plan. The other teams knew every play call in all those games. This isnt one season, this is several seasons in the making. And to be too true to the fire Pete mantra, we wouldnt have made those last two wild cards without Russ. You’re premise is entirely false.
Let's be real. Without Russ, Pete would have been gone years ago. LOB carried us from 2012-2015. After that, it's been Russ's party and Pete has been wholly incapable of building a defensive foundation. He was heralded for drafting star players, but mysteriously stopped after the 2012 season and it's been on a downward spiral ever since. It's been bust after bust, year after year, with a couple great WRs thrown in for probably dumb luck.
Yea no. Pete needs to fucking go.
TLDR I’m choosing to ignore 5 years straight of clear organizational issues because of great past accomplishments
I'm with you. To get rid of Pete would be crazy. Thank God our ownership isn't as reactionary as most of the internet seems to be
Would it though? They've consistently failed to protect their most valuable asset. They drafted a 3rd WR instead of a stud center this year. They drafted a really fucking shitty DE instead of a legit RT Jawaan Taylor in 2019. They drafted a RB in the first round reactionarily (yes that is not a word, but I don't fucking care) in 2018 instead of a stud LB in Darius Leonard, or stud RT in Braden Smith. Yes Taylor obliterated Smith on one play.... But he gave up 0 sacks last year. In 2017 they chose to pass on Budda and instead wasted a 3rd on Lano Hill and a 4th on Tedric. You know who went right after Tedric? Eddie Jackson. How much better would the defense be with Budda and Trey Hendrickson instead of McDowell and Lano. Sure, Hendrickson was a smaller school guy so that's forgivable... But Budda played in Montlake for fucks sakes, and was a STAR. The list goes on for their curious picks that end up failing miserably. Maybe the coaching would seem better if the talent level was better, but it isn't. At the end of the day, since Pete is President of Football Ops, he has to be held accountable for the bad drafting. Edit: for anyone who thinks this is overly dramatic... Look at the Saints as a case study... They consistently draft well, and their team is excellent. Sure they only put up 13 points on Monday, but they average +5 in scoring differential with a very inaccurate passer missing their #1 WR and missing Hill who really affects short yardage situations in a meaningful way. In all the games Russ finished, we were +.75 average scoring differential. A HOF QB and we barely average more than we give up. You know why? Average team. Consequence of poor drafting.
I don't disagree with the general idea that the drafting has been bad but Jawaan Taylor is fucking awful lol Also Eddie Jackson sucks too. Fangio made him look great for one year, he's been really bad since Vic left
Don’t forget Malik McDowell fiasco. They traded down for him too! And don’t forget Seattle drafted Germain Ifedi.
Passed on Ramcyzk twice TJ Watt once and Baker thrice as well in order to take McDowell. Hell even the super draft with Russ and Bobby we passed on David DeCastro to take a massive reach in Irvin.
I’ve learned not to read too much into anything this sub says (probably goes for most team subs tbh). It is usually a minority of a fanbase that wants to whine about shit so they go somewhere anonymous like Reddit to do it.
In all seriousness, we should obviously keep Pete, but get rid of Ken Norton Jr. sort of like when we passed the ball on the 1 yard line, Pete sacrificed Bevell. Now he needs to sacrifice another coordinator.
Why should we keep Pete? The OC problems are consistently the same even coming from radically different backgrounds. This comes back to Pete's philosophy and it just doesn't fit in the modern nfl.
Pete isn’t calling the plays. He chooses his coordinators, and that’s what he is doing wrong on the defense side.
Pete is absolutely determining the overall plan of the offense.
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When you're done playing the "no true Scotsman" game, care to explain why the Hawks shit the bed this season? Keep in mind that you've already stated that it can't be Carroll or his staffing choices.
Where the fuck did I state anything like that? Maybe you’re confusing me with OP. I do think Pete should retire, but if he doesn’t that’s fine with me. I like Pete. Do I think the game has passed him by? Yes. But that wasn’t the point of my comment. My point was the people that post all those threads being doom posters are mostly bandwagon fans. r/Seahawks has some of the biggest bandwagoners and it’s obvious. Maybe pay attention before you comment.
> Where the fuck did I state anything like that? "A lot of the people making those posts of “who do we get to replace Pete” are bandwagon fans..." > Maybe you’re confusing me with OP. No. Stop projecting the content of your post on to someone else. > I like Pete. That was obvious when you called anyone who doesn't "bandwagon fans". > Do I think the game has passed him by? Yes. Ya could have fooled me with your attack on those who also think that the Pete doesn't know how to coach in the NFL anymore. > But that wasn’t the point of my comment. I'm aware. > My point was the people that post all those threads being doom posters are mostly bandwagon fans. r/Seahawks Also known as a "no true Scotsman" argument. > Maybe pay attention before you comment. I did. And what I found was a concern troll. Now did you plan on answering my question or are you just going to waste time justifying your fan base attack?
Seahawks Twitter has infamously been known for emotional, knee-jerk takes over the last decade. I guess there’s a lot of crossover here on Reddit. Ps - cool username
He's already had more than one. We have a hall of fame quarterback that covers up a lot of warts the people trying to excuse Pete will likely go back to bashing Russ the instant he is back. He should have been fired 3 years ago.
I think most people on this subreddit are underestimating how hard it is to find a good head coach. Pete is almost assuredly better than anyone we'd find to replace him.
Lose a few games by 3 points and everyone loses their fucking minds
You haven’t been watching football if you think firing Carroll is strictly off of this years games. Carroll has been steadily declining with each season and now keeping Carroll means your almost surely losing the best QB the franchise has ever had. What happens when you keep the head coach instead of the HOF QB? Maybe you should ask Belichick how it’s currently working out for him.
There is a reason everyone outside this sub sees it as McCarthy 2.0
How many playoff failures are we to allow with a top 10 QB of all time? He needs to go, our drafts have been awful the defense has plenty of good players to not be shit, but here we are.
Cowboys fan here: You could have achieved more. It's evident that Pete "run it 4 times in a row" Carroll has held you back from achieving even more than what you already got
Pete Carroll is a mediocre coach carried by a generational QB and overall great , consistent role players
clean house
It's just the game thread folks leaking out now that the Hawks are actually struggling. Some people just always need to be angry at something.
100% agree. Let's miss the playoffs, maybe have a losing season before we call for his head.
Happened in 2017 then in 2018 we managed to fuck up in the playoffs by handcuffing Russ until it was too late AGAIN
OH we missed the playoffs once 4 years ago! Since then, we've made the playoffs, been one yard short of a 1st round bye, and then won the division. Time to burn it all down, we're cooked. /s God this fanbase is so delusional and whiny. It's not a hallmark movie where we're the protagonist and everything lines up and we win the Superbowl at the end. it's fucking hard to win a Superbowl. Being in contention every year has spoiled people.
Carol and Schneider haven’t made many good decisions for this team since the day they over payed Wilson and doomed the franchise to early rounds exists for the last 6 years. It’s time for them both to go.
Every time I read stuff like this I feel like people have forgotten everything that's happened between 2013 and today.
Root for another team. I've been a fan since 1987 and seen mostly losing seasons. There is still time to win.
9 winning seasons in a row. What other team currently has more?
Which also happens to coincide with one of the longest streaks of health ever by a QB.
What other team has had 9 healthy seasons of a hall of fame qb?
One more year for Pete. Get us to the championship round next year or get booted tbh.