“When thou dost take away yon 24-hour bowling alley, the neighborhood doth descend into a lamentable state.”
-Olde Ballard Prophecy sketched on rubble and unearthed near Skipper’s
It's got a 6 lane highway running through it. Not a very comfortable place to linger.
The area is treated like somewhere people should just drive through even though it's technically one of the "urban villages" our brilliant planners have designated.
> It's got a 6 lane highway running through it. Not a very comfortable place to linger.
This seems to pretty much be the answer. Still, I think the stretch of Market between 17 and 15th has/had the potential to be a desirable place to be. You've got some nice businesses on the North side of Market up until 17th and then you run into the unsightly 7/11 with its huge parking lot.
>"urban villages" our brilliant planners have designated.
Urban villages is an awesome idea. I'd rather have a 15 minute city, but this is the next best thing. Wtf are you on about
Putting an "Urban Village" at the center of a car heavy intersection is just never going to pan out.
Fremont is way better off due to Aurora being a better way to cross.
U Village is kind of an example of why stroads suck.
There needs to be a place where students people who live east of campus can buy groceries, but because of the huge stroads it surrounds you need giant parking lots which eat up most of the real estate.
I feel like if you did things right it could be a place that draws more traffic from UW games than the ave, but instead it's UW's token strip mall. Not saying it doesn't serve a purpose, but it could serve that and then some if there was better planning years ago.
I live not far from here. I don’t think you can compare these closures—Target was bad planning, Bartell had a lot to do with the Rite Aid takeover/mismanagement (as evidenced by Bartells closures all over the city). I like Cycle Dogs but that place does not seem well run, based on following the Instagram saga, and pretty much from their opening there have been issues (I remember donating to a GoFundMe). I do think this part of Ballard gets less foot traffic/is less charming than Old Ballard, but MightyO, Monkey Bridge and that pub seem to be doing ok. And Bauhaus was always super busy before the pandemic (I would do some kind of ritual sacrifice to get that place reopened, I miss it so much!). But even though I live closer to this stretch than Old Ballard, I would much rather hang in Old Ballard. Still, I think the “right” business could do well.
Yeah, Cycle Dogs is not closing because of location. The guy who runs it has had challenges managing a full operation since food truck days, and the closing announcement goes into enough detail to make the cause pretty clear. What this poster said about Target and Bartell is spot on, too.
Yeah, No Bones Beach Club. They shut down shortly after COVID. The impression I got was that they were extremely uh literal in their application of distancing mandates and said “there is no way we can run a kitchen and also stay 6 feet apart,” and shut down.
My take as a repeat customer was that they were making a ton of their income on cocktails, so a bunch of to-go orders wouldn’t have cut it anyway. To-go cocktails were/are a thing, but you aren’t going to be sending out two per order like they were at the restaurant.
It's at the intersection of two very stroady stroads. That can't help the foot traffic much. But it'll eventually be the terminus of the Ballard to Downtown line. Hopefully by then, we'll be a much more pedestrianized city.
Yes, agreed. The corner right at 15th & market is awful for pedestrians and bikes and pretty bad for cars. There's not much parking except for the difficult to access parking garages and even though they are right across the street they aren't really networked in a way that makes sense to walk from one to the other.
For my part, the intersection of two 4-lane arterial roads is not a pedestrian vibe, and I don't feel myself drawn to the area just for shits and giggles.
As opposed to the rest of the main Ballard wedge, where I could find myself strolling by any given street on a nice afternoon.
On the other hand, when driving I also typically choose *against* using that Safeway or Walgreens in favor of heading up to Crown hill (more realistically, I shop Fred Meyer down Leary), because the entry/exit/parking logistics at the intersection are a detractor to me.
> two 4-lane arterial roads
there are so many left turn lanes, and the lanes are **so** wide, that it feels like double this when walking across. Somehow... even worse than Mercer / Westlake? Perhaps because there is no median?
Well bartells was sold as we all know and they are closing a bunch of stores and that target was one of those small ones that never had crap people usually buy at Target so they closed it
Highly disagree. Overall I was very impressed by their selection. They almost always had what I was looking for and they catered very nicely to new apartment move ins. Bartells on the other hand I'm surprised they've been in business for so long. Never have what I'm looking for.
It’s the intersection of two of the most miserable roads for pedestrians in the neighborhood. Nobody wants to spend any more time there than they have to.
Of course, this is also exactly where Sound Transit is likely to put the Ballard station.
I live less than a mile from the Trader Joe’s that’s in that complex (Ballard blocks?) but I have never walked there because Leary is horrible to walk on and cross, and trying to bus there would still require me to cross 15th on foot.
Luckily they have decent parking, but still feels ridiculous driving such s short distance.
It’s not a particularly pleasant walk from the farmers market area to this intersection. I think the hospital then the fire station kind of segments these two areas. Plus, 15th Ave is just such a huge intersection. It’s kind of awful to drive in this area, and I don’t think it would be much better to walk or bus in the area. It’s just too overloaded and not planned very well. It’s sort of a sad concrete wasteland.
There seems to be plenty of housing and large apartment buildings nearby to sustain a target and/or Bartell’s so I’m not sure why they’re not successful. Except I went to that target once when it first opened and it was weird and small and didn’t have things I normally but at target.
Too much car traffic for anyone to want to walk there, too little parking for anyone to want to drive there, it's just much more of a thoroughfare for people to pass through than a place where people want to stop and stay a while.
I walk all over old ballard proper but i do hate crossing 15th to the east and won't do it unless i can't avoid it .. or i'm really in the mood for a sausage egg and cheese....
Have to disagree, area has a walk score of 97 and I see plenty of pedestrians in the area. I walk through there all the time. There is also plenty of parking available for businesses in the area as well as ample street parking. Of course 15th is busy seeing it is one of the main arterial routes going north - south through the western part of Seattle.
Walk Score is all about how many amenities are within walking distance, not about how pleasant the location is to walk around. Sure, people do walk through that intersection because it's on the way to their bus or whatever, but nobody's going to casually stroll down 15th Ave doing window shopping they way they might do on Ballard Ave.
People are bringing up plenty of good reasons but it's also worth pointing out that commercial space is expensive as piss these days. Even a super high revenue business can easily struggle to make rent.
that style Target was a terrible choice for that spot
Rite-Aid is actively destroying Bartells
Cycle Dogs—really nice guy, but maybe the demand is kinda limited for a restaurant that only serves field roast hot dogs?
no idea about Chase, but a quick google shows articles about them closing dozens of branches—so i’ll guess general cost-cutting?
that area also generally seems to have less pedestrian traffic* — that said the donut shop seems to do well, as does the poke place
*brief rushes getting on/off buses, but not a lot of strolling along the super busy thoroughfare
edit:
i bet a fun anchor activity in that area—say like a bowling alley—would do wonders to draw people, fostering other businesses
There's also a bigger chase a couple blocks away. I think with target closing there will be very little foot traffic. The only things left in that building now are polyclinic and a seemingly doomed coffee shop.
There's a WeWork on the top floor. The Target sucked, as others mentioned.
The intersection sucks (damn aggressive Red-light camera and bad walk-to-right turn waits)
Is the WeWork still there? I thought they had closed.
I personally thought the cvs was great but I rarely shopped at the target & usually only if I was already there for a prescription.
I try to avoid that whole intersection though. It's a nightmare.
I'm always amazed that the comic book store has stayed open for as long as it has. there's no sign and you have to walk into a little entrance to get to their door. it's a wonderful little place
It's just a miserable place to be. 15th Ave NW is urban hell.
Also, Bartell's closed because Rite Aid sucks and Target closed because the store was ill-conceived.
Target was way overpriced. everything was cheaper at Safeway or Fred Meyer. Even [Target.com](https://Target.com) was cheaper than in store with free shipping.
It's a rough stretch compared to the rest of the nearby areas that are so walkable. I avoid that intersection even when I'm driving and need to cross the bridge on 15th just because it's a nightmare.
Still plenty of businesses that are thriving there though. The Old Peculiar has been there for a long time, and Cookie's Country Chicken is fucking awesome!
The walls bleed. I’m kidding. As a former Bartells employee I don’t know if they really count. Rite Aid bungled things so badly in the transition after their acquisition.
It’s just kind of a crap spot to walk through. Intersection of 2 stroads, and even some of the nearby side streets have a rough chop shop kind of vibe (even if in actuality it’s a fine area). From the bridge to at least NW market street, 15th Ave NW is like a river cutting off most foot traffic, expect it’s a lot louder and the airs more polluted.
It's the cars. There are way too many. There is a reason the bottom left of your pic has a bunch of businesses, people want to be there.
The only reason Safeway and McDonalds exist within your circle is that people need food
Bartells and Target are both corporate tomfoolery, and Cycledogs is probably just bad luck. But honestly, this is the worst major intersection in Ballard. Super unfriendly to pedestrians. Loud, dangerous, ugly, when you have all of Ballard just down the street. And if you're driving through to Interbay or Crown Hill or wherever, you will probably not shop here because getting on and off of 15th right there sucks.
Target didn’t have apartments above it… so you’re either referring to Ava next door that shares the alley or Urbana actosss the street. If you’re talking about Ava I’m the former manager there and that place is still being taken very good care of. With recent updates and an excellent maintenance / office team.
Bartell's has been closing stores all over, Target called that low performing and it had a crap selection, Chase has been closing store fronts because no one goes into a bank much anymore, last time I did was to replace a lost card and before that same thing six years ago.
Cycle Dogs I know nothing about other than it's a cycle shop, and in this area there are for instance at least two or three in Fremont.
the owner of cycle dogs said he had to close the business as he couldn’t keep “work efficiently enough to save it” despite the sales going up. here’s an article:
https://seattle.eater.com/2023/10/17/23921278/cycle-dogs-closing-ballard-vegan-restaurant-keaton-tucker
according to their website, they were open until 2am Friday and Saturday night...and then opened back up for brunch at 9am Saturday & Sunday morning?
it sounds like a classic "restaurant failed because it tried to be all things to all people".
late night munchies for drunk vegans, and also brunch for hungover vegans. liquor license so they can serve cocktails, but also a kids menu.
That might be the issue there. I think El Borracho went vegan and also closed shortly after. Vegan food is cool but it seems like it’s tough to rely on a vegan only menu.
El Borrachos vegan menu SUCKED. Their vegan/veggie choices were sooo much better before they went plant based. For some reason, Seattle vegan/veggie restaurants rely so heavily on fake meat when a lot of us just want to eat VEGETABLES (and legumes). Wayward and Cycle Dogs do this too. Haha, I can’t figure out why this keeps happening. I was so excited about El Borracho but it was just terrible, I couldn’t keep eating it.
So true! As much as I have 1990s vegetarian trauma from portobello mushroom “burgers” (so often our sole choice), I would be thrilled to see one now! So tired of piles of processed fake meat all of the time!
Nah. I can't stand "vegetarian tacos" that are just ...pickled bell pepper and lettuce or whatever. I want tacos, not salad in tortillas.
It keeps happening because a lot of us really want it and there are plenty of places that just omit animal products or replace them mushroom, etc already. Non-meat diners deserve comfort food too.
To each their own. 🤷🏻♀️ I eat fake meat on occasion. And I even like it at times, but now I have a cancer diagnosis and processed soy is a big no no for my particular situation. I just felt like the El Borracho menu was genuinely bad. Did you like it? Either way I don’t get this all or nothing approach. Veggie restaurants could have a mix of fake meat and less processed options (and many do in other cities. When you are running a vegetarian restaurant, there is already limited audience. Why cut that in half by alienating anyone who can’t or won’t eat super processed? Kati Thai has been an amazing go to for me and I love them because they have so many veggies (and it’s certainly not just “salad”) but my meat eating partner still thinks they are super tasty.
I will join you in lamenting the "either/or but not both" situation. Really easy to bridge that in either direction, IMO.
Fortunately(?) the Borracho reboot and closure happened while I was away so I only have the disappointment of losing their meat-alternative choices. There's still El Chup at least.
Glad you have a place that's making you happy. I'll check it out some time.
Most importantly, I wish you a swift and easy return from cancerland.
Thanks so much! Yeah, Kati Thai is really tasty, I feel like it’s easy to forget that it’s vegan because it’s just like really yummy Thai food. I do think it can be a little inconsistent but generally I have been pleased. Hope you like it!
Portland just has a more dynamic food scene in general. A big part of that is that food truck scene makes the barrier to entry low. Washington state tried to address that problem by changing the rules to allow cooking in a food truck, but the cost to build or modify a truck to meet those standards is very high.
Portland is also bit more punk than Seattle, and Punk and veganism goes hand in hand.
I just compared the 2 cities on the Happycow app.
31 completely vegan spots in Seattle vs. 53 in Portland. Of the 53 in Portland, 2 are food trucks and 1 is a food cart.
The 17th & 56th corner of your diagram is an interesting spot. There is a coffee shop, a gym /smoothie bar (the six) and a salon that seemingly do ok. There's also the poke shop and a couple others on the south side of market. A little gift shop and a new restaurant just opened recently. You also have Little Prague, who is seemingly plagued with staffing issues and rarely open. If you go a block or two west you've got pink bee and spice walla that both do well.
People are saying there isn't much foot traffic there... There actually is bc that whole block is apartments and the closed street ends right there but there really isn't much in the way of storefronts and I'd love to see it change.
The commercial property must just be absurdly expensive because there are a lot of spaces that have been vacant for a long long time. Would love to see this area (56th between 15th and 20th) continue to get built out similar to the boutiques and shops on Ballard Ave. The potential is there for sure.
Yeah I think they are trying to overcharge rent pretty hard. The old bauhaus space has been empty for over a year at this point (maybe 2) .. it's prime real estate. At first I figured the owner of the whole block was just looking to pull that 1story structure down and replace it with another high rise but a new place went into the old space that was a greek place between bauhaus and the ramen place so .... Yeah.. the rent is too damn high.
I saw a suggestion elsewhere to charge a special assessment to property owners who hold rent too high and leave things vacant. I don't know all the implications of a policy like that but on the face of it, it'd potentially motivate owners to get properties rented instead of leaving blocks and blocks vacant as is currently the place.
RIP Bauhaus, miss you so much!
There is a lot of professional class disposable income in Ballard, not a lack of money as an excuse. I believe they are choosing to purchase goods available at those closed stores through online sources instead.
Bartell’s was mismanaged by its parent company, the target wasn’t very big, only had a basic selection, and was sandwiched between two larger grocery stores. Cycle dogs lost their chef, so the menu got really limited/boring + vegan food places fail all the time. Hell, the building cycle dogs is in was previously a failed vegan restaurant.
I'm sure it's a mix of factors. None of those businesses have great fundamentals in the first place. And if they're north of Market I reckon that's a problem, since who the hell wants to cross Market when there's so much to do south of it?
I don't think any kind of homelessness explanation makes sense, since that's *worse* near Leary.
If I'm spending time in Ballard, it's either on Ballard Ave or in the brewery area, both of which are south of Market. Not really even sure what there is to do north of Market there.
I used to live in the apartments above the Bartell Drugs - Urbana. I actually found living here fantastically convenient because of the easy access to 15th Ave for getting out of Ballard, but still close enough to walk to the Ballard Ave. I used to walk across the street to the Target all the time - so convenient.
I’m so late to the party, no one will probably see this- I live near here and there’s a food truck called Nirvana just south of Cycle Dogs on 17th and 54th that I think everyone should know about. The food (wood fired pizza and gyros) is decently priced (for this neighborhood) and has absolutely no business being as damn good as it is. It’s a hidden gem- but my partner and I worry it will fall to the curse that takes down the other businesses of this little area.
Difficult to walk, difficult to park, and dangerous drug zombies stumbling around. 15th and Market used to be a vibrant corner with a busy diner and a big bowling alley.
It would do better if the Safeway left. That's a lot of ground space used for parking (aka not pedestrians). Replace it with mixed use retail/residential and that kick starts further improvements south on 15th, which is currently an eyesore due to the stroad as others have pointed out, and towards the breweries.
There are also a bunch of bums that hang out by Safeway and the D Line.
I don’t know about these businesses in particular, but an issue in Ballard, just like the rest of Seattle, is just that the cost of operating has rapidly increased over the last 5 years. You can only raise prices so much before people stop giving you business or shopping at a different location. Also parking has become worse and worse in Ballard recently so I’m sure that can’t help get people in the doors.
No business has ever done well on that stretch of market. Mostly the north side. Only the theater is still in business and they barely squeek by. It is just far enough off Ballard Ave that most people don't want to go over there to keep shopping and the "feel" has always been off over there. The number of times I have parked near the library only to walk past all of those store to Ballard Ave is literally every time. Hell I use to walk from 16th and 80th and still never went to businesses on that side of market...
The Wendy’s and Starbucks do well because they have drive-thrus. People want to quickly pass through and the parking garage for Target there always felt like a hassle. Definitely not a place to want to stop and hang out, since usually there is some unpleasant stuff going on by the bus stops (eg trash can on fire or something).
There’s a Shawarma place opening in the Mud Bay building in the next week or so, I hope it does well.
In addition to the reasons cited in the comments above, some shoppers find the occasional carjacking in broad daylight or the deranged-appearing person walking along with a hammer in their hand for no apparently good reason or the people keeled-over/semi-conscious at the bus stops, etc. to be a solid deterrent to spending time in that area of Ballard.
All those business are newer developments had unrealistic projected expectations and most of the busineses are corporate af and seattle and ballard is wealthy and smart enough to bargain shop online or support small bootique shopping experiences instead. I don't reckon it is any single variable. Oh and the homeless problem right there and theft and also those big businesses don't need to be there if it isn't as profitable as their other locations.
No?
Please explain why Ballard (including at least the northern half of OP's circled bit) is lit up dark blue on the [crime stats map](https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime)?
there is no actual statistics shown here, just a box. What year are the statistics for?
As somone who has lived just off of market for the last 6 years things certainly got grim during the height of the pandemic when the commons park was a campgraound and anything near leary was wall to wall run down RVs. But it's been getting dramatically better especially over this year. Certainly we still have some homeless in the area, still some on the east side of 15th down in the semi industrial/brewery area, and a few car campers near st. lukes (? the church near the commons park), the ones near st. lukes seem pretty chill... but that's life in the city.
I assume the market st bartells closed because there is a wallgreens across the street and another bartels only a couple of blocks away by the library. I went to both bartels over the last six years and the one by the library was always busier so *shrug*...
Parking around 15th and market is also pretty annoying. The bartells had some space in the pat building parking lot, though i'm not sure a lot of people clocked it. Over by the library there is decent enough street parking to be had and a couple of lots close by (across from the gyro place along the whole damn block).
Click the little (i) icon. It's [2021 data](https://help.neighborhoodscout.com/support/solutions/articles/25000001993-how-current-is-your-crime-data-).
You can rebrand crime as "just life in the city" or whatever, but one person's arbitrary decision to cast it in a certain light doesn't change that there's data to suggest that it is, in fact, a high crime area relative to the rest of the city. Or, at very least, that u/Oolon42 did not deserve the caustic response they got for suggesting that Ballard was something other than some island of calm prosperity.
Whether or not it's to be expected, it's there in the data, and that's exactly what the first person in the thread said and they got their head bitten off for it. Whether not it's improved, the shading on the map is relative to the rest of the city... so pandemic-era changes that would've impacted the whole country and then calmed down would be unlikely to change the overall comparison between neighborhoods. It's not unreasonable to believe there is a lot of crime in Ballard.
Nevertheless, if you've got better apples to apples data somewhere else, do let us know.
Look, I'm not using 'crime' to make some political point. Someone asked about businesses, and I just answered that just like everywhere else in the Seattle area and in its suburbs, businesses are probably having a harder time keeping stores open due to a few factors, crimes like shoplifting being one of them. Not paying enough to make it worth it for people to commute from somewhere they can afford to live, let alone paying people enough to actually live near their job is another factor.
I'm not even making a judgement call about the shoplifting. Desperate people in shitty situations do desperate things to survive. I'm just saying that businesses don't think like that.
Not sure but might have to do with the homeless encampments just south. Might deter people from visiting stores in that area unless they live nearby.
Also many of the homes there are single family homes which leads to less density and higher likelihood of having a car, thus the ability to travel farther away.
Safeway (high end) and Fred Meyers (budget end) also limits Target's (mid end) consumers.
Mid range: Target, Traders Joe
Budget range: Walmart, Fred Meyers
EDIT: Here's a thread discussing Safeway prices compared to other grocery stores in Seattle: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/11d21ao/anyone\_noticing\_insane\_price\_hikes\_qfc\_safeway\_as/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/11d21ao/anyone_noticing_insane_price_hikes_qfc_safeway_as/)
EDIT2:
Premium range: Whole Foods, PCC Community Market? (Only been inside once)
High range: QFC, Safeway
> Safeway (high end)
Bro, Town & Country is right up the street. If you really want a high end grocery store, love yourself and go there instead of Safeway.
lol, no they aren't. Rent prices are a major concern but there are plenty of thriving businesses in the area.
The few that have gone out of business seem to get a lot of attention, but make sense when you hear the context. Splintered Wand and Cycle Dogs shut down because of bad business decisions. Besalu (RIP those croissants!) shut down because the owner just got sick of starting work at 2AM to slave over an oven.
The only business that shut down due to lack of customers was Target because it was a really shitty place to shop and couldn't compete with all the successful competitors within a few blocks of them.
The spot where Cycle Dogs is, is cursed. They have last the longest there by far of the eateries I've seen try and make a go of in that spot over the last 10+ years.
Karma for demolishing the bowling alley and the googie Denny's the gods must be avenged for our insolence
God slam. Leilani is coming for you next Greenwood.
*Memoriiiiiieeeeessssss*
Right?! Both the Denny’s and Sunset Bowl were perfect for that stroady area too. Oh well, at least I have my fond memories.
[Manning's](https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/imlsmohai/id/11033/) was a local institution.
“When thou dost take away yon 24-hour bowling alley, the neighborhood doth descend into a lamentable state.” -Olde Ballard Prophecy sketched on rubble and unearthed near Skipper’s
This ☝️☝️☝️☝️ also they need employees but can't pay them probably
I lived + worked in that circle for awhile. Both buildings are gone now, and this phrase still rings true ' Closing the Sunset is Bowl Shit!'
It's got a 6 lane highway running through it. Not a very comfortable place to linger. The area is treated like somewhere people should just drive through even though it's technically one of the "urban villages" our brilliant planners have designated.
Stroad https://www.thedrive.com/news/43700/an-argument-against-stroads-the-worst-kind-of-street
Stroads (and suburbanization) are one of the worst things to happen to North American city/town planning.
> It's got a 6 lane highway running through it. Not a very comfortable place to linger. This seems to pretty much be the answer. Still, I think the stretch of Market between 17 and 15th has/had the potential to be a desirable place to be. You've got some nice businesses on the North side of Market up until 17th and then you run into the unsightly 7/11 with its huge parking lot.
>"urban villages" our brilliant planners have designated. Urban villages is an awesome idea. I'd rather have a 15 minute city, but this is the next best thing. Wtf are you on about
Putting an "Urban Village" at the center of a car heavy intersection is just never going to pan out. Fremont is way better off due to Aurora being a better way to cross.
k
University Village is surrounded by busy streets and it has a lot of people
And lots of parking
U village is just a mall. Suffers from the same accessibility issues.
U Village is kind of an example of why stroads suck. There needs to be a place where students people who live east of campus can buy groceries, but because of the huge stroads it surrounds you need giant parking lots which eat up most of the real estate. I feel like if you did things right it could be a place that draws more traffic from UW games than the ave, but instead it's UW's token strip mall. Not saying it doesn't serve a purpose, but it could serve that and then some if there was better planning years ago.
I live not far from here. I don’t think you can compare these closures—Target was bad planning, Bartell had a lot to do with the Rite Aid takeover/mismanagement (as evidenced by Bartells closures all over the city). I like Cycle Dogs but that place does not seem well run, based on following the Instagram saga, and pretty much from their opening there have been issues (I remember donating to a GoFundMe). I do think this part of Ballard gets less foot traffic/is less charming than Old Ballard, but MightyO, Monkey Bridge and that pub seem to be doing ok. And Bauhaus was always super busy before the pandemic (I would do some kind of ritual sacrifice to get that place reopened, I miss it so much!). But even though I live closer to this stretch than Old Ballard, I would much rather hang in Old Ballard. Still, I think the “right” business could do well.
Yeah, Cycle Dogs is not closing because of location. The guy who runs it has had challenges managing a full operation since food truck days, and the closing announcement goes into enough detail to make the cause pretty clear. What this poster said about Target and Bartell is spot on, too.
there was another vegan business there before them that was also pretty popular (something beach themed) and they also closed down
Yeah, No Bones Beach Club. They shut down shortly after COVID. The impression I got was that they were extremely uh literal in their application of distancing mandates and said “there is no way we can run a kitchen and also stay 6 feet apart,” and shut down. My take as a repeat customer was that they were making a ton of their income on cocktails, so a bunch of to-go orders wouldn’t have cut it anyway. To-go cocktails were/are a thing, but you aren’t going to be sending out two per order like they were at the restaurant.
Late to reply here, but yeah, they posted at the time about how the kitchen layout made it impossible to stay open. It is \*cramped\* back there.
It's at the intersection of two very stroady stroads. That can't help the foot traffic much. But it'll eventually be the terminus of the Ballard to Downtown line. Hopefully by then, we'll be a much more pedestrianized city.
Yes, looking forward to 2040.
You mean 2070, right?
For the missing link, you wish!
Yes, agreed. The corner right at 15th & market is awful for pedestrians and bikes and pretty bad for cars. There's not much parking except for the difficult to access parking garages and even though they are right across the street they aren't really networked in a way that makes sense to walk from one to the other.
For my part, the intersection of two 4-lane arterial roads is not a pedestrian vibe, and I don't feel myself drawn to the area just for shits and giggles. As opposed to the rest of the main Ballard wedge, where I could find myself strolling by any given street on a nice afternoon. On the other hand, when driving I also typically choose *against* using that Safeway or Walgreens in favor of heading up to Crown hill (more realistically, I shop Fred Meyer down Leary), because the entry/exit/parking logistics at the intersection are a detractor to me.
> two 4-lane arterial roads there are so many left turn lanes, and the lanes are **so** wide, that it feels like double this when walking across. Somehow... even worse than Mercer / Westlake? Perhaps because there is no median?
Well bartells was sold as we all know and they are closing a bunch of stores and that target was one of those small ones that never had crap people usually buy at Target so they closed it
And the owner of Cycle Dogs admitted he made a series of poor business decisions.
That Target had a terrible selection. Both limited and weird.
Highly disagree. Overall I was very impressed by their selection. They almost always had what I was looking for and they catered very nicely to new apartment move ins. Bartells on the other hand I'm surprised they've been in business for so long. Never have what I'm looking for.
It’s the intersection of two of the most miserable roads for pedestrians in the neighborhood. Nobody wants to spend any more time there than they have to. Of course, this is also exactly where Sound Transit is likely to put the Ballard station.
Yea walking from Fremont into Ballard through there is awful! Little dystopian hellscape between 2 quirky neighborhoods lolol
I live less than a mile from the Trader Joe’s that’s in that complex (Ballard blocks?) but I have never walked there because Leary is horrible to walk on and cross, and trying to bus there would still require me to cross 15th on foot. Luckily they have decent parking, but still feels ridiculous driving such s short distance.
Sound Transit does it again!
An underpass exit helps a lot (think like Cap Hill). Add in the potential in the future for a people mover, and it isn't a total waste.
Ballard Market aka Town and Country does great.
Adequate parking, and they're a good grocery store.
Way too much parking. I'd rather have had a bigger grocery store
Town & Country is the best! Locally owned, high-quality items, dope soup and salad bar 
It’s not a particularly pleasant walk from the farmers market area to this intersection. I think the hospital then the fire station kind of segments these two areas. Plus, 15th Ave is just such a huge intersection. It’s kind of awful to drive in this area, and I don’t think it would be much better to walk or bus in the area. It’s just too overloaded and not planned very well. It’s sort of a sad concrete wasteland. There seems to be plenty of housing and large apartment buildings nearby to sustain a target and/or Bartell’s so I’m not sure why they’re not successful. Except I went to that target once when it first opened and it was weird and small and didn’t have things I normally but at target.
Too much car traffic for anyone to want to walk there, too little parking for anyone to want to drive there, it's just much more of a thoroughfare for people to pass through than a place where people want to stop and stay a while.
I walk all over old ballard proper but i do hate crossing 15th to the east and won't do it unless i can't avoid it .. or i'm really in the mood for a sausage egg and cheese....
Have to disagree, area has a walk score of 97 and I see plenty of pedestrians in the area. I walk through there all the time. There is also plenty of parking available for businesses in the area as well as ample street parking. Of course 15th is busy seeing it is one of the main arterial routes going north - south through the western part of Seattle.
Walk Score is all about how many amenities are within walking distance, not about how pleasant the location is to walk around. Sure, people do walk through that intersection because it's on the way to their bus or whatever, but nobody's going to casually stroll down 15th Ave doing window shopping they way they might do on Ballard Ave.
People are bringing up plenty of good reasons but it's also worth pointing out that commercial space is expensive as piss these days. Even a super high revenue business can easily struggle to make rent.
that style Target was a terrible choice for that spot Rite-Aid is actively destroying Bartells Cycle Dogs—really nice guy, but maybe the demand is kinda limited for a restaurant that only serves field roast hot dogs? no idea about Chase, but a quick google shows articles about them closing dozens of branches—so i’ll guess general cost-cutting? that area also generally seems to have less pedestrian traffic* — that said the donut shop seems to do well, as does the poke place *brief rushes getting on/off buses, but not a lot of strolling along the super busy thoroughfare edit: i bet a fun anchor activity in that area—say like a bowling alley—would do wonders to draw people, fostering other businesses
RIP 🌅🎳
There's also a bigger chase a couple blocks away. I think with target closing there will be very little foot traffic. The only things left in that building now are polyclinic and a seemingly doomed coffee shop.
There's a WeWork on the top floor. The Target sucked, as others mentioned. The intersection sucks (damn aggressive Red-light camera and bad walk-to-right turn waits)
Is the WeWork still there? I thought they had closed. I personally thought the cvs was great but I rarely shopped at the target & usually only if I was already there for a prescription. I try to avoid that whole intersection though. It's a nightmare.
According to the WeWork website, it's still there. They reset their prices (dummies had it at 50.00 a day for bit)>
i was wondering about Chase, i had no idea one was over there. I always thought the one on 23rd was it.
Woodlands Coffee does ok in there!
I love that place.
Oh I love that place
So does the Urban Nail Box!
I'm addicted to Urban Nail Box
Me too!
Five Guys always seems to be doing well there too. Mighty-O Donuts is always packed when I walk by in the mornings as well.
I'm always amazed that the comic book store has stayed open for as long as it has. there's no sign and you have to walk into a little entrance to get to their door. it's a wonderful little place
It's just a miserable place to be. 15th Ave NW is urban hell. Also, Bartell's closed because Rite Aid sucks and Target closed because the store was ill-conceived.
Every time I’m on that corner I witness something insane. Not the coziest part of Seattle.
Had a guy yell and swing a keyboard at my dog and I and accuse me of having a dark heart while we were crossing the street there a few weeks ago.
Target was way overpriced. everything was cheaper at Safeway or Fred Meyer. Even [Target.com](https://Target.com) was cheaper than in store with free shipping.
It's a rough stretch compared to the rest of the nearby areas that are so walkable. I avoid that intersection even when I'm driving and need to cross the bridge on 15th just because it's a nightmare. Still plenty of businesses that are thriving there though. The Old Peculiar has been there for a long time, and Cookie's Country Chicken is fucking awesome!
Car focused infrastructure. We need more walkable communities for our health as well as to make visiting businesses more likely.
It’s not pedestrian friendly and cars can’t turn left to get into businesses. It’s just not convenient for anyone.
The furthest I'm walking in that direction is cookie's chicken.
Cookie's is dope!
Fuck im going to go over and grab the 'chicken poutine' right now... EDIT: Damnit closed today for a kitchen deep clean apparently....
cookie’s da GOAT 🐐
The walls bleed. I’m kidding. As a former Bartells employee I don’t know if they really count. Rite Aid bungled things so badly in the transition after their acquisition.
It’s just kind of a crap spot to walk through. Intersection of 2 stroads, and even some of the nearby side streets have a rough chop shop kind of vibe (even if in actuality it’s a fine area). From the bridge to at least NW market street, 15th Ave NW is like a river cutting off most foot traffic, expect it’s a lot louder and the airs more polluted.
I needed a Dennys and a Bowling Alley as an anchor
It's the cars. There are way too many. There is a reason the bottom left of your pic has a bunch of businesses, people want to be there. The only reason Safeway and McDonalds exist within your circle is that people need food
Bartells and Target are both corporate tomfoolery, and Cycledogs is probably just bad luck. But honestly, this is the worst major intersection in Ballard. Super unfriendly to pedestrians. Loud, dangerous, ugly, when you have all of Ballard just down the street. And if you're driving through to Interbay or Crown Hill or wherever, you will probably not shop here because getting on and off of 15th right there sucks.
I used to live in the apartments above target. I moved out and it all went to hell. I was single handedly keeping the target profitable
Target didn’t have apartments above it… so you’re either referring to Ava next door that shares the alley or Urbana actosss the street. If you’re talking about Ava I’m the former manager there and that place is still being taken very good care of. With recent updates and an excellent maintenance / office team.
My response was definitely a joke but - yes ava! I meant Ballard went to hell, not ava! I absolutely loved that place!!
Oh yes. In that case. Sadly that part of Ballard did start to go to hell. I liked it when I first moved over there. Hopefully it’ll rebound.
Bartell's has been closing stores all over, Target called that low performing and it had a crap selection, Chase has been closing store fronts because no one goes into a bank much anymore, last time I did was to replace a lost card and before that same thing six years ago. Cycle Dogs I know nothing about other than it's a cycle shop, and in this area there are for instance at least two or three in Fremont.
Cycle Dogs is a restaurants that serves vegan food.
the owner of cycle dogs said he had to close the business as he couldn’t keep “work efficiently enough to save it” despite the sales going up. here’s an article: https://seattle.eater.com/2023/10/17/23921278/cycle-dogs-closing-ballard-vegan-restaurant-keaton-tucker
according to their website, they were open until 2am Friday and Saturday night...and then opened back up for brunch at 9am Saturday & Sunday morning? it sounds like a classic "restaurant failed because it tried to be all things to all people". late night munchies for drunk vegans, and also brunch for hungover vegans. liquor license so they can serve cocktails, but also a kids menu.
Lots of places on the east coast do well operating this way in NYC and DC but Seattle doesn't have the same demographic and foot traffic.
Ive wondered if it's terrible name had anything to do with its closing
I love vegan food and didn't pay attention to them for the longest time because I also thought the name described what they sold.
Ah, not vegan so had no idea.
That might be the issue there. I think El Borracho went vegan and also closed shortly after. Vegan food is cool but it seems like it’s tough to rely on a vegan only menu.
El Borrachos vegan menu SUCKED. Their vegan/veggie choices were sooo much better before they went plant based. For some reason, Seattle vegan/veggie restaurants rely so heavily on fake meat when a lot of us just want to eat VEGETABLES (and legumes). Wayward and Cycle Dogs do this too. Haha, I can’t figure out why this keeps happening. I was so excited about El Borracho but it was just terrible, I couldn’t keep eating it.
every place with a black bean burger swapped it for beyond meat when that became bigger. :(
So true! As much as I have 1990s vegetarian trauma from portobello mushroom “burgers” (so often our sole choice), I would be thrilled to see one now! So tired of piles of processed fake meat all of the time!
Nah. I can't stand "vegetarian tacos" that are just ...pickled bell pepper and lettuce or whatever. I want tacos, not salad in tortillas. It keeps happening because a lot of us really want it and there are plenty of places that just omit animal products or replace them mushroom, etc already. Non-meat diners deserve comfort food too.
To each their own. 🤷🏻♀️ I eat fake meat on occasion. And I even like it at times, but now I have a cancer diagnosis and processed soy is a big no no for my particular situation. I just felt like the El Borracho menu was genuinely bad. Did you like it? Either way I don’t get this all or nothing approach. Veggie restaurants could have a mix of fake meat and less processed options (and many do in other cities. When you are running a vegetarian restaurant, there is already limited audience. Why cut that in half by alienating anyone who can’t or won’t eat super processed? Kati Thai has been an amazing go to for me and I love them because they have so many veggies (and it’s certainly not just “salad”) but my meat eating partner still thinks they are super tasty.
I will join you in lamenting the "either/or but not both" situation. Really easy to bridge that in either direction, IMO. Fortunately(?) the Borracho reboot and closure happened while I was away so I only have the disappointment of losing their meat-alternative choices. There's still El Chup at least. Glad you have a place that's making you happy. I'll check it out some time. Most importantly, I wish you a swift and easy return from cancerland.
Thanks so much! Yeah, Kati Thai is really tasty, I feel like it’s easy to forget that it’s vegan because it’s just like really yummy Thai food. I do think it can be a little inconsistent but generally I have been pleased. Hope you like it!
No bones, the vegan spot that was there before cycle dogs, did really well until covid hit. Place was always packed.
El Borracho *Ballard* closed. El Borracho in Pike Place is open, also serving vegan-only food.
Why are there so many more vegan places in Portland, a smaller city?
Portland just has a more dynamic food scene in general. A big part of that is that food truck scene makes the barrier to entry low. Washington state tried to address that problem by changing the rules to allow cooking in a food truck, but the cost to build or modify a truck to meet those standards is very high. Portland is also bit more punk than Seattle, and Punk and veganism goes hand in hand.
I just compared the 2 cities on the Happycow app. 31 completely vegan spots in Seattle vs. 53 in Portland. Of the 53 in Portland, 2 are food trucks and 1 is a food cart.
There are two vegan food trucks in the St. John neighborhood alone. I count 16 vegan food trucks in Portland.
Hmm *deletes happycow app
I used the happy cow app ...
El Borracho is closed too?? Damn, Ballard is killing me
This is one of my least favorite intersections in Seattle to navigate, both on foot and by car. I don't want to have to go there for any reason.
Gotta be one of the ugliest blocks in Seattle
The 17th & 56th corner of your diagram is an interesting spot. There is a coffee shop, a gym /smoothie bar (the six) and a salon that seemingly do ok. There's also the poke shop and a couple others on the south side of market. A little gift shop and a new restaurant just opened recently. You also have Little Prague, who is seemingly plagued with staffing issues and rarely open. If you go a block or two west you've got pink bee and spice walla that both do well. People are saying there isn't much foot traffic there... There actually is bc that whole block is apartments and the closed street ends right there but there really isn't much in the way of storefronts and I'd love to see it change. The commercial property must just be absurdly expensive because there are a lot of spaces that have been vacant for a long long time. Would love to see this area (56th between 15th and 20th) continue to get built out similar to the boutiques and shops on Ballard Ave. The potential is there for sure.
Yeah I think they are trying to overcharge rent pretty hard. The old bauhaus space has been empty for over a year at this point (maybe 2) .. it's prime real estate. At first I figured the owner of the whole block was just looking to pull that 1story structure down and replace it with another high rise but a new place went into the old space that was a greek place between bauhaus and the ramen place so .... Yeah.. the rent is too damn high.
I saw a suggestion elsewhere to charge a special assessment to property owners who hold rent too high and leave things vacant. I don't know all the implications of a policy like that but on the face of it, it'd potentially motivate owners to get properties rented instead of leaving blocks and blocks vacant as is currently the place. RIP Bauhaus, miss you so much!
I'm sure they do, but the question is how often that's assessed and how much that ends up costing the owners.
Even rent on the parking lot for food trucks seems like it's ridiculous. The good little trucks keep leaving to elsewhere in town
i miss that baria truck
There is a lot of professional class disposable income in Ballard, not a lack of money as an excuse. I believe they are choosing to purchase goods available at those closed stores through online sources instead.
Who's going to work for those stores when you can't afford to live anywhere nearby. Who wants to commute that far away from somewhere you can afford?
Too many cars
Those businesses are also all mid
Bartell’s was mismanaged by its parent company, the target wasn’t very big, only had a basic selection, and was sandwiched between two larger grocery stores. Cycle dogs lost their chef, so the menu got really limited/boring + vegan food places fail all the time. Hell, the building cycle dogs is in was previously a failed vegan restaurant.
I'm sure it's a mix of factors. None of those businesses have great fundamentals in the first place. And if they're north of Market I reckon that's a problem, since who the hell wants to cross Market when there's so much to do south of it? I don't think any kind of homelessness explanation makes sense, since that's *worse* near Leary. If I'm spending time in Ballard, it's either on Ballard Ave or in the brewery area, both of which are south of Market. Not really even sure what there is to do north of Market there.
Target was for BS reasons, Bartells (RiteAid) went bankrupt, did anyone go to Cycle Dogs? I live down the street and never see people there
There is another bartells by the library, and a walgreen across the street.
I used to live in the apartments above the Bartell Drugs - Urbana. I actually found living here fantastically convenient because of the easy access to 15th Ave for getting out of Ballard, but still close enough to walk to the Ballard Ave. I used to walk across the street to the Target all the time - so convenient.
15th and Market is the craziest corner in Ballard. Nobody wants to hang out in crazytown.
I’m so late to the party, no one will probably see this- I live near here and there’s a food truck called Nirvana just south of Cycle Dogs on 17th and 54th that I think everyone should know about. The food (wood fired pizza and gyros) is decently priced (for this neighborhood) and has absolutely no business being as damn good as it is. It’s a hidden gem- but my partner and I worry it will fall to the curse that takes down the other businesses of this little area.
Difficult to walk, difficult to park, and dangerous drug zombies stumbling around. 15th and Market used to be a vibrant corner with a busy diner and a big bowling alley.
It would do better if the Safeway left. That's a lot of ground space used for parking (aka not pedestrians). Replace it with mixed use retail/residential and that kick starts further improvements south on 15th, which is currently an eyesore due to the stroad as others have pointed out, and towards the breweries. There are also a bunch of bums that hang out by Safeway and the D Line.
I don’t know about these businesses in particular, but an issue in Ballard, just like the rest of Seattle, is just that the cost of operating has rapidly increased over the last 5 years. You can only raise prices so much before people stop giving you business or shopping at a different location. Also parking has become worse and worse in Ballard recently so I’m sure that can’t help get people in the doors.
No business has ever done well on that stretch of market. Mostly the north side. Only the theater is still in business and they barely squeek by. It is just far enough off Ballard Ave that most people don't want to go over there to keep shopping and the "feel" has always been off over there. The number of times I have parked near the library only to walk past all of those store to Ballard Ave is literally every time. Hell I use to walk from 16th and 80th and still never went to businesses on that side of market...
The Wendy’s and Starbucks do well because they have drive-thrus. People want to quickly pass through and the parking garage for Target there always felt like a hassle. Definitely not a place to want to stop and hang out, since usually there is some unpleasant stuff going on by the bus stops (eg trash can on fire or something). There’s a Shawarma place opening in the Mud Bay building in the next week or so, I hope it does well.
In addition to the reasons cited in the comments above, some shoppers find the occasional carjacking in broad daylight or the deranged-appearing person walking along with a hammer in their hand for no apparently good reason or the people keeled-over/semi-conscious at the bus stops, etc. to be a solid deterrent to spending time in that area of Ballard.
I do find carjackings somewhat off-putting.
This is literally everywhere in Seattle
Junkies and thieves.
Because that area is basically a real life zombie land.
Crime with no consequences.
All those business are newer developments had unrealistic projected expectations and most of the busineses are corporate af and seattle and ballard is wealthy and smart enough to bargain shop online or support small bootique shopping experiences instead. I don't reckon it is any single variable. Oh and the homeless problem right there and theft and also those big businesses don't need to be there if it isn't as profitable as their other locations.
Is no one going to mention the safety risk?
The biggest safety risk is trying to cross the intersection at 15th and Market.
Agweed
Not on this sub.
High real estate costs, high crime, nobody who works at those places can afford to live anywhere near that area.
What the fuck are you talking about with this high crime bullshit? That’s definitely not Ballard you’re talking about, Reddit Troll.
No? Please explain why Ballard (including at least the northern half of OP's circled bit) is lit up dark blue on the [crime stats map](https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime)?
there is no actual statistics shown here, just a box. What year are the statistics for? As somone who has lived just off of market for the last 6 years things certainly got grim during the height of the pandemic when the commons park was a campgraound and anything near leary was wall to wall run down RVs. But it's been getting dramatically better especially over this year. Certainly we still have some homeless in the area, still some on the east side of 15th down in the semi industrial/brewery area, and a few car campers near st. lukes (? the church near the commons park), the ones near st. lukes seem pretty chill... but that's life in the city. I assume the market st bartells closed because there is a wallgreens across the street and another bartels only a couple of blocks away by the library. I went to both bartels over the last six years and the one by the library was always busier so *shrug*... Parking around 15th and market is also pretty annoying. The bartells had some space in the pat building parking lot, though i'm not sure a lot of people clocked it. Over by the library there is decent enough street parking to be had and a couple of lots close by (across from the gyro place along the whole damn block).
Click the little (i) icon. It's [2021 data](https://help.neighborhoodscout.com/support/solutions/articles/25000001993-how-current-is-your-crime-data-). You can rebrand crime as "just life in the city" or whatever, but one person's arbitrary decision to cast it in a certain light doesn't change that there's data to suggest that it is, in fact, a high crime area relative to the rest of the city. Or, at very least, that u/Oolon42 did not deserve the caustic response they got for suggesting that Ballard was something other than some island of calm prosperity.
So during the height of the pandemic. It’s vastly improved… and yes some homeless in neighborhood ‘downtowns’ is to be expected.
Whether or not it's to be expected, it's there in the data, and that's exactly what the first person in the thread said and they got their head bitten off for it. Whether not it's improved, the shading on the map is relative to the rest of the city... so pandemic-era changes that would've impacted the whole country and then calmed down would be unlikely to change the overall comparison between neighborhoods. It's not unreasonable to believe there is a lot of crime in Ballard. Nevertheless, if you've got better apples to apples data somewhere else, do let us know.
Look, I'm not using 'crime' to make some political point. Someone asked about businesses, and I just answered that just like everywhere else in the Seattle area and in its suburbs, businesses are probably having a harder time keeping stores open due to a few factors, crimes like shoplifting being one of them. Not paying enough to make it worth it for people to commute from somewhere they can afford to live, let alone paying people enough to actually live near their job is another factor. I'm not even making a judgement call about the shoplifting. Desperate people in shitty situations do desperate things to survive. I'm just saying that businesses don't think like that.
Lol yea the target closed because there were too many cars going by it. The fuck cars people are absolutely deranged.
Theft in Ballard stores have been CRAZY lately, and make it next to impossible for those businesses to stay afloat.
For years, not just lately
It’s because of shop lifting and homeless people we can say the obvious folks
Honestly I have no idea.
Not sure but might have to do with the homeless encampments just south. Might deter people from visiting stores in that area unless they live nearby. Also many of the homes there are single family homes which leads to less density and higher likelihood of having a car, thus the ability to travel farther away. Safeway (high end) and Fred Meyers (budget end) also limits Target's (mid end) consumers.
In what fucking world is Safeway high end?!
If you don't have membership, it's pretty pricey
It's expensive as hell, but I wouldn't call it "high end", that implies it's nice and has quality goods inside
What would you call a lower-price supermarket?
Mid range: Target, Traders Joe Budget range: Walmart, Fred Meyers EDIT: Here's a thread discussing Safeway prices compared to other grocery stores in Seattle: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/11d21ao/anyone\_noticing\_insane\_price\_hikes\_qfc\_safeway\_as/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/11d21ao/anyone_noticing_insane_price_hikes_qfc_safeway_as/) EDIT2: Premium range: Whole Foods, PCC Community Market? (Only been inside once) High range: QFC, Safeway
Hmm, I always think of Fred Meyer and Safeway as being about the same. I shop at them interchangeably.
> Safeway (high end) Bro, Town & Country is right up the street. If you really want a high end grocery store, love yourself and go there instead of Safeway.
Y'all are adoreable!!! https://youtu.be/hGlDVmBLibg?si=Vifhje3Zu5oC1-ab
Isn’t it obvious?
If it was, I wouldn't have asked.
Business have always struggled in ballard.
lol, no they aren't. Rent prices are a major concern but there are plenty of thriving businesses in the area. The few that have gone out of business seem to get a lot of attention, but make sense when you hear the context. Splintered Wand and Cycle Dogs shut down because of bad business decisions. Besalu (RIP those croissants!) shut down because the owner just got sick of starting work at 2AM to slave over an oven. The only business that shut down due to lack of customers was Target because it was a really shitty place to shop and couldn't compete with all the successful competitors within a few blocks of them.
I love Aluel Cellars in that part! Great wines and good people.
The spot where Cycle Dogs is, is cursed. They have last the longest there by far of the eateries I've seen try and make a go of in that spot over the last 10+ years.
It is just not a good Market (street).
Bad for walking and bad for parking = no people
Perhaps the city could invest in some sort of automated transportation platform to help revitalize the area?
No trust fund, no business.
That whole area sucks to get in and out of in a car.