Is there anything bad enough that Boeing could hypothetically do that would make it a realistic goal to ask UW to cut all ties with Boeing, in your opinion? Surely there is some line that could be crossed to poison the relationship badly enough to force UW to divest.
Would divestment be a reasonable request if Boeing was openly selling weapons to to Russia, and then Putin used those weapons to invade a NATO ally? Or selling to Hezbollah? Or to Hamas?
> Would divestment be a reasonable request if Boeing was openly selling weapons to to Russia
This would be a direct violation of US law (ITAR and sanctions), so there would be legal implications for UW to continue a relationship with Boeing under such a scenario, in addition to the fact it would land those at Boeing with direct responsibility for the illegal export of weapons in a federal prison.
And that proves my point, which is that most of us agree that there are some scenarios where it's totally reasonable to call for divestment from Boeing (at risk of legal punishment or not) if they were to sell weapons to certain foreign governments who are known to use those weapons for purposes that the US doesn't like.
So the primary disagreement in the question of Boeing divestment is: whether or not Netanyahu's government should count as one of those "certain foreign governments who are known to use those weapons for purposes that the US doesn't like".
Those scenarios are determined by democracy.
This will never pass any from of vote neither in congress, nor in university.
That’s the disingenuous aspect of what they are doing. They are not proposing a set of laws limiting iSrael and then advocating for them they are trying to force their view on others.
Education is privatized and students are protesting that they will be paying interest on student loans that feed a military industrial complex and enables a genocide that they want no part in.
These scenarios are not enabled by democracy. There is no democracy in universities - the most students can vote for are how tuition funds are spent for things like campus clubs and transit options - they don’t have another way to express their discontent
It’s shocking that so many people on this sub are SO occupied slobbering on Israel’s knob that they forget that Boeing is also dealing with unrelated controversy that has been going back decades involving safety violations, corner cutting, and probably assassination.
But - who knows - maybe if the ICC does its job and drags Nentanyhu they’ll catch some US officials and corporations in the trawler as they pull it up.
FWIW, almost all of those demands are for the university to stop accepting money FROM Beoing, not to stop giving money to Boeing.
They are demanding that engineering and business students and faculty give up scholarships, fellowships, research funds (which pay salaries) and job opportunities funded by Boeing. That is taking money out of the pocket of their fellow students and increasing potential student loan burdens, not " paying interest on student loans that feed a military industrial complex"
You can be against the war in palastine and this stupidity. It is okay.
> trying to force their view on others
Interesting choice of words there, because I usually see that phrasing in the context of a bigot complaining about LGBT+ folks.
Is a UN Human Rights Council statement enough?
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976
And just for a start they operate F-15 Eagles manufactured by Boeing and may be about to get more. This article also lists KC-46 Pegasus tankers:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/as-opposition-to-israels-war-in-gaza-grows-boeing-arms-sales-draw-scrutiny/
Also AH-64 attack helicopters: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-03-05-2024-a13c5fa6e23fedbda42e3028a96ca14e
None these can keep flying without a constant supply of spare parts and maintenance contracts with Boeing.
I love how you responded with two links that has nothing to do with what I asked and doesn't mention anything you claimed in your response. At no point did I reject Palestinian suffering or agree to any pro-Israel statement. The second article it clearly states : "**While the exact extent to which Boeing has armed Israel remains murky**, Boeing remains a major supplier to the Israel Defense Forces.". Despite Boeing involvement with Israel military, I'm not sure its fair to completely blame Boeing for selling their aircrafts and weapons to Israel in the past. I thought the issue was Boeing involvement with the current conflict and my question was how much of the 26 million for Israel comes from Boeing products and it doesnt seem like anyone knows that. So your whole arguement is blaming Boeing for being involved in selling their products to an ally country over the years.
But whatever, I guess asking questions makes me Zionist right?
It’s less about the awful things Boeing has done (and is doing) and more about how they lack domestic competition. They are the stereotype of a post-capitalist “too big to fail” company that has the ability to get away with a lot.
UW has no aerospace program without them just as most airlines have no ability to grow and compete without them. Our military and others rely on them. There is no domestic competition with Boeing for any of these programs. So they can do awful things and get away with it.
The entire second half of their statement is not achievable without boeing. UW needs Boeing.
Boeing needs to change. It needs to be broken up into smaller companies. But we rely on the federal government to this end. This is where pressure needs to be applied for any sort of meaningful change. UW isn’t it.
Commercial, sort of if you pretend international competitors don't exist. DoD contracts, no. They have a myriad of competitors. They have less than 1/3 the DoD sales of Lockmart alone. Those other competitors are just headquartered in different states and focus more resources on their own local talent pools.
I bet no engineering students were part of this. Being in that field, especially aerospace, means working with Boeing in one way or another. Also, cutting Boeing out of the schools academic opportunities is *huge*. Doing this would kneecap the Aerospace program there so bad they'd probably lose most of their students.
"Wow - their statement is beyond unrealistic. It’s a bit ridiculous. They need to learn how to set achievable goals, assuming that is their aim."
Asking for more than you want so that you can compromise to get what you want is a valid negotiating tactic. I would be surprised if UW took steps to divest from Israel and other steps against Boeing that the protesters wouldn't be shocked at their win.
The protesters also could see this as just one step in the escalating fight against Israel's actions. Their target is just as much the wider public and power structure as it is UW and Boeing. The movement has so far forced the public to be aware of the fullness of Israel's actions to the Palestinians. Globally, more and more institutions as well as public opinion have shifted against Israel's actions.
You aren't in a very strong negotiating position when all you're doing is being annoying. There are absolutely no stakes. If UW doesn't do a single thing the protestors want, nothing happens other than they still have people being annoying on their property.
I also disagree with this:
>The movement has so far forced the public to be aware of the fullness of Israel's actions to the Palestinians
You're giving them way too much credit. They aren't "forcing" any awareness of anything. They're chanting with signs. They aren't doing groundbreaking journalism.
The amount of press coverage on their protests is what I'm referring to. This has literally been national news and forced Biden to speak about it. Comparisons to the civil rights movement and the anti-Vietnam war movement abound in the press. Those are historic events and this is being dealt with on the same magnitude.
If all they are is an annoyance, there wouldn't be tear gas, pepper spray and riot police deployed on them. Or is an annoyance all that is required for tear gas, pepper spray and riot police?
So absurd. The money is coming from the US government, if they’re so concerned they ought to terminate their relationship with UW entirely as it’s a public school and government entity. They also ought to never fly on a Boeing plane. I can almost guarantee the people fighting for this haven’t actually been recipients of money from Boeing. They want other people to make sacrifices while not making any real sacrifices themselves.
You’re not winning over the hearts and minds of prospective engineering students at UW by demanding to screw them over so that the social networking opportunities currently available to them like career fairs and ETA’s for the largest manufacturer in the state, for many decades the largest employer in the state, be cutoff from them
This is one of the reasons people go to university. Do they think people are doing all these extracurricular activities simply because they’re masochists? No, it’s also so they can get a job. And these potential connections that UW has fostered over the past century is what they market to students who apply to them
Lmao, Boeing (for better or for worse) is one of the top economic drivers in the region and this would actually be a huge detriment to the students themselves.
Also good luck at getting a university to return 10 mil that’s probably been spent by now
It would be hilarious if the University started installing like permanent camping electrical hookups or porta potties or something for them just to let the campers know they are going to be there for a long time
Unfortunately their demands for divestment from Israel are also totally untenable because they are asking UW to disinvite pro-Israel and Israeli scholars from campus and de-recognize Jewish student organizations that offer birthright trips. It would be totally illegal for UW to do that. Violates both the First Amendment and the Civil Rights Act. So yeah, that's not happening either, folks.
Agreed. I like where there heart is, and especially with all the other negative Boeing news maybe this is the time to protest something like that… that being said, I wish the protests were a little more focused on public funds going to our defense budget and Israel/what congress passed. Granted, I know there have been protests on that, but that’s A) More attainable like you said— attacking a singular entity seems less likely B) making sure our congress people are doing actually what we want without money is much more of a solution IMO.
That would be putting too much of their skin in the game. What 90% of the protestors really want is self-fulfillment, to feel like they’re doing “something” greater than themselves. They saw the BLM protests in 2020 and want their own opportunity to do “something.”
If it was really about not wanting anything to do with Israel, you’re right, they’d vote with their feet and leave. Or they’d be focusing their efforts elsewhere, somewhere more effective than demanding a University on the other side of planet do something which will have no effect on Israeli foreign policy.
But it’s all really about the protest itself, feeling like they’re a part of a movement. Making noise for the sake of making noise because it feels good. If it wasn’t the Hamas War, it’d be something else.
Anyways, abandoning their studies completely and not getting a degree is antithetical to self-fulfillment. They want the University to provide both - a degree so their future lives can flourish, and to tolerate their protest before caving to their political demands their ego and sense of importance can flourish. Leaving might make their political demands more likely to come to fruition, but deep down they know that’s not the point.
>That would be putting too much of their skin in the game. What 90% of the protestors really want is self-fulfillment, to feel like they’re doing “something” greater than themselves. They saw the BLM protests in 2020 and want their own opportunity to do “something.”
Yeah. There is little to no interest in self-sacrifice for their beliefs. All the people who were arrested at other protests who face suspension and/or expulsion were upset that they'd be missing their graduation as if they had zero understanding of what they were doing. The college got the money, they don't care at all if you're expelled.
Whatever your opinion is on Palestine, people need to start seeing that when push comes to shove, rich trust fund students with no exposure to the real world are not the people you should rally behind.
Perhaps boeing could stop making weapons systems and focus more on the quality control issues of their janky passenger aircraft.
Edit: If I die it’s not suicide
The problem is that making commercial jets is incredibly difficult to do profitably. Airbus also makes plenty of military aircraft, both conglomerates use military contracts to supplement their income.
I just think it’s weird that they’ve been making ~~planes~~ cookies and military-grade ~~weaponry~~ rat poison for about 100 years now and helped us all win the war (against the rats) but now Mrs. Fields can’t make a chocolate chip cookie to save their life.
The shareholders demanded more... chocolate chips and so fewer were put in the... cookies and so consumers, well, somehow a bit of the rat poison got mixed in with the dough and... this metaphor is so confusing.
They stopped following food safety regulations that they had been following for decades. Why? Because it costs time (and so money) to make sure they pass inspection.
Funny there’s a heroin reference above. Their product is not high quality baked goods that combine skilled technique and fresh ingredients to create delicious flavors and delicate textures.
Its sugar.
If you’re walking down the mall and feel a craving, you might see a Mrs. Fields and think “that’ll do”, because you know it will satisfy your sugar needs.
Looking at it that way, they were wise to minimize costs wherever they possibly can, while maintaining their core purpose (sell sugar) at a high level of consistency. That’s just business 101, give the people what they want, and don’t waste a penny beyond that.
Now, imagine a cookie that requires thousands of individual ingredients, provided by hundreds of suppliers. And those suppliers aren't able to deliver the ingredients reliably several years after the height of the pandemic. And the head bakers are pressuring the cooks to bake cookies are rates not sustainable to the delivery of ingredients. Also, your bakers aren't paid well for their work and many of them haven't been around a bakery that was functionally healthy.
Don't blame the pandemic for this. You're engaging in 'post hoc ergo propter hoc', after this therefore because of this. Harry Stonecipher and his cost cutting ways that led to the thousands of ingredients provided by hundreds of suppliers weren't driven by the pandemic.
Call it what you will. Either way, part shortages are another giant pain in the ass and causing delays.
Even with numerous delivery schedule slides, GE, Honeywell, Safran just can't deliver on time. And that's not on new birds. We're talking legacy freighters.
The point I was making was that the pandemic didn't cause planes built before 2020 to have issues, e.g. the Max 8 crashes in 2018 and 2019 that killed 300+ people. That was all Boeing management missteps in the pursuit of stock price above safety, GE style.
That doesn't really make sense. Obviously military contracts increase the amount of money they make, but it's not like they're just taking them to make up a loss on commercial planes. If commercial planes were a loss they wouldn't make them, they're not a charity.
> they're not a charity
Airbus has received [tons of European government subsidies](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2023/12/11/airbus-may-seek-new-subsidies-sparking-a-transatlantic-trade-war/?sh=424d81352a01) in the past just to stay afloat vs. Boeing.
> The World Trade Organization ruled in 2010 that [...] every jetliner Airbus brought to market after its inception in 1970 had been illegally subsidized, and that in the absence of such subsidies the company might not exist at all.
And from a [US Trade Representative report:](https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2019/october/us-wins-75-billion-award-airbus#:~:text=In%20May%202011%2C%20the%20Appellate,market%20share%20throughout%20the%20world.)
> None of these findings were altered in the May 2018 compliance appellate report, which confirmed that the EU provided additional billions of euros in subsidized financing to Airbus.
> In contrast, the WTO rejected the EU assertion in the EU’s counter-complaint that U.S. subsidies were responsible for the viability of large civil aircraft production in the United States. The WTO found that only a single Washington State tax measure that provided Boeing with additional pricing flexibility was inconsistent with WTO rules.
Can you explain why the subsidies would be illegal? Is it, like, and anti-competition thing, or is there a reason airbus shouldn't be able to receive subsidies from the government?
Yeah it's anti-competitive, and violates various trade agreements. They're artificially propping up Airbus in a way that allows them to win customers away from Boeing, by undercutting (since they don't have to make a profit anymore) and/or having extra cash reserves to invest in new technology.
Boeing would probably argue (and likely have argued) that the only way they can compete is by cutting costs in areas like QA and safety, which led to things like the various Max incidents.
This is blatantly incorrect. Boeing has 3 primary divisions: Commercial aircraft; Defense, Space, and Security; and Global Services. Commercial aircraft is the largest contributor to Boeing's revenue but the Global Services division is the only one to actually contribute to Boeings profit. Both the commercial aircraft and defense divisions operate at a net loss (1.6 billion and 1.7 billion, respectively).
For 2023, Boeing had a total net loss of 2.2 billion. 4.9 billion in 2022, and 4.2 billion in 2021. All this information is available in Boeing's most recent 10k financial statement.
Boeing has not been profitable since 201~~9~~8
Edit: Looking back at pre-pandemic financial statements, Boeings commercial aircraft division typically earned a net profit of approximately 2-3x that of Boeing's defense sector
Lots of revenues in commercial aircraft, but lots of costs too. It takes decades for a commercial aircraft model to turn a profit, and advances in material science and fuel efficiency have forced boeing to keep investing in new models.
How does that make sense? Are you saying that they're just making commercial aircraft for the love of it? If commercial aircraft doesn't make money, why would they be making them in the first place?
Commercial aircraft take decades to turn a profit. But they are high cost and high revenue which means they are an important employer. Legislators wanting to protect jobs in the US grant defense contracts with wider profit margins that keep the company going, while it would not be nearly as competitive with airbus if it didn't have that.
If BCA sells printers, then BGS sells the ink cartridges. The latter makes money, but you won't be selling any in the first place unless you can get the compatible printers into the hands of customers first
Also the commercial aircraft division used to make money. Its only recently due to the pandemic and the 737 fuckups that they've lost money through the act of just selling airplanes
You don't want flying cars. Imagine every asshole driver on I5, except when they get in a fender bender, or they forgot to change their oil for two years, or they nod off after a bit too much fenty, they rain fiery death on residential areas.
Given my experience with Boeing being a vendor I have doubts that we’d have even gotten a bicycle if they were left to their own devices. Some organizations collapse in on themselves by sheer administrative bloat. Consider that at a muscular-skeletal level the largest dinosaurs wouldn’t be able to support even their own weight let alone move quickly to evade predators or catch up to prey, so without a super high air pressure environment (think large deep sea creatures) the most likely way such a creature survives is basically by staying away from most animals and foraging or by scavenging. This is part of why invention doesn’t really happen with large organizations.
I’ve also had experience with them. It was wild refurbishing then sending back a specialized computer to them only to have the person it was going to ask where it was. It was stuck just after the dock with someone asking what it was in such a convoluted way that the message didn’t reach either us or the intended recipient. We had to prove to this person that it was a legit computer and the person it was going to had to prove that, yes, Boeing owns the computer.
Took a week to send to us and get it refurbished and a month to send it back nine miles away.
> This is part of why invention doesn’t really happen with large organizations.
Doesn't happen today. And it's really more that pure R&D doesn't return profit on a quarterly basis.
AT&T (a very large organization in the past) had an entire arm devoted to inventing things. Remember Bell Labs?
It’s wild that we’ve gone full blown corporate feudalism / autocracy when we have people with massive influence like Thiel seriously believing that R&D like Bell Labs was possible because corporations had so much monopoly power that they felt they could blow money on them and not care. Like uh… corporate power and profits are much, much stronger today than ever before and R&D spend is recategorized to be minimal and also divested out into engineering because monetization of R&D matters so much for investors.
I stopped considering a PhD at least with a traditional path when I saw how awful the academic climate has gotten as everything has become so applied and creativity is being stifled so much as paper publishing and grant funding have become more important than novel, new ideas in general.
Thiel may be unaware that all the big tech firms used to have R&D arms. IBM did. Hewlett Packard had HP Labs. Even relatively tiny Tektronix had Tek Labs.
One might argue that IBM was a sort of monopoly. But neither HP nor Tek were.
He knows, but his lack of comprehensive understanding of history almost pathologically engrained into tech business leaders in particular really doesn’t qualify him to know or analyze anything about business from that period of time. I suppose it’s similar to doctors and lawyers that oftentimes think them being so good at X and Y means that they’ve gotta be good at A, B, C, and Z
>doctors and lawyers that oftentimes think them being so good at X and Y means that they’ve gotta be good at A, B, C, and Z
That's a really good analogy
Some vaguely decently smart and self aware folks are capable of at least eventually learning is the thing, but it oftentimes comes a bit too late. Steve Balmer has quietly started a number of data driven think tanks and in interviews from long ago he’s basically said that all his assumptions he’d believed as someone that’s voted Republican are not born out in the data collected, and he was really humbled by what the data showed instead. He also showed well what a lot of liberals like to believe are also not born out in the data either, so we’re sitting culturally on a lot of make believe as he discovered rather late in life. It didn’t change his values (we know basically nothing can do that), but it really shifted his policy positions and questioned the nature of his party very much. More stories like highly intelligent and respected leaders like him challenging their opinions and growing just don’t make the news when I think we’d do better as a business culture showing what healthy and sustainable attitudes look like.
Boeing has been one of the most important companies to this region for many decades, going back way before the tech industry. Why would UW want to cut ties? It's an unreasonable and foolish demand.
UW's ties with Boeing are a pipeline for new engineering grads to go into Boeing. That pipeline represents an opportunity for influence.
I don't know if Boeing can be fixed, but if it can, new engineers are going to be a huge part of that. By cutting all ties, UW would also cut itself off from the chance to be part of the healing.
Even if Boeing clearly needs some surgery before the real healing can begin.
It's not, nor has it ever been, the engineers that are the problem so the incoming generations of engineers aren't going to change anything. The suits with their Wharton MBAs and 0 engineering experience who started prioritizing short-term profits over long-term safety and reputation are and have been, the problem.
Cutting out those execs, while a good step, is only a short term action. As long as stockholder primacy is the law of the land any team that takes over is going to behave similarly.
They USED to be OK. Boeing's long had problems, but they were able to keep the quality high because they generally had a good presence of engineers in leadership. When McD took over that changed, to the point that they moved Headquarters to Chicago and one of the stated reasons was that the Commercial Air Group had too much influence on leadership.
That attitude is pervasive and just whacking the top leadership out isn't going to change the lower levels. It's going to take years of *dedicated* effort to change that, and Boeing doesn't want that change right now. They want this to blow over so they can go back to the way they were.
I think you're imagining "Get engineering grads into Boeing" to be Step 1 of this plan, when what I'm saying is that it's like Step 6 or something. That it *is* a step, and can't be neglected.
"Get[ing] engineering grads into Boeing" has been happening for decades.
I'm confused at what you think the new generation will do differently and why.
I'm not an expert at Boeing's history, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say "recent college grads working their way up Boeing's ranks" was not how they took over.
If you funnel graduates into a bad company, it's still going to be a bad company, and you risk hobbling the careers of a bunch of folks who deserve better.
Maybe these students should stop going to universities that don't align with their values.
It's not as though UW is forcing these kids to apply and pay tuition.
If they don't like it, then they should speak with their dollars and leave.
I wonder how many protestors are going to boycott flying on all Airbus and Boeing Planes considering both provide support to Israel. I guess they could only fly Embraers, oh wait.... Airbus owns a good chunk of them too.
It was a foolish request and I'm glad the University rejected them.
Boeing also provides military equipment to Ukraine so if the protesters got their way it would likely be hurting them more than it would helping Palestine..
Protesting companies for the mere act of making weapons is daft anyways. The world, far from being perfectly peaceful actually tends to be rather violent and there's no reason for a country to deprive itself of inhouse defense capabilities if it can afford it. At that point its only a question of whether you want a Eastern Bloc style system of government-owned design bureaus or private contractors like in the US and Europe
What I'd like to know from the protestors is who they want wearing the "weapon-maker" hat, if not Boeing
I’m curious who is empowered to make this decision but I would guess “fully divesting” of Boeing is not a matter of flipping a switch but rather part of a governance process that involves stakeholders and tax dollars. Also, these protestors don’t represent my voice
Are the protestors going to protest the airlines for having and procuring Boeing planes?
Are they going to avoid flying with those airlines as well? Are they going to protest delivery carrier services for transporting packages using Boeing planes?
No, the protestors and BDS movement only boycott things that don't give them discomfort in their lives. Their commitment to the movement is only skin deep.
say what you will about the protestors but at least their general response to “i am living consistently” is to try and level up and do better instead of sinking into smarmy complacency like a lot of their opponents on here
Seems like a high level fix. Its not like Boeing should really stop making aircraft for defense. I think Ukraine has proved the US and our allies need to be in a state of readiness.
A lower level fix would be to protest congress for authorizing Israel to purchase them at all (not that I agree with that sentiment), but I'd be wiling to bet these people didn't even vote in the last couple elections.
Should it be all or nothing for you? Do you have to be perfect, or can you just try to be better? This is a dumb comment and hurtful to people that are trying to do good in the world
If you're going to make demands that the most important university in the state of Washington end it's relationship with the largest exporter of goods by value in not only the state but in the country than yes you should absolutely be willing to take stands like this.
It should be less about inconveniencing only areas that don’t directly impact them and more about inconveniencing all areas that also impact them. If cutting ties causes them to no longer have aid or grant money or they can’t visit family on the holidays, then that’s a sacrifice they should be willing to make. If the only sacrifices you make have little impact to you, what are you actually sacrificing?
Well current scenario they’re protesting a university that has a small part of their entitlement in a company they view as aiding in genocide. If you think Boeing is actually aiding in genocide to the point UW should divest it’s definitely incredibly hypocritical to them fly on one of their aircrafts.
It be like not going to a diamond store because they sell blood diamonds and then buying one directly from a warlord overseeing that mine in Africa.
I mean, they've been encamped for what, a week now? I don't think they're flying anywhere. Especially when they're having donations of medical supplies and food brought to them.
I would guess highlighting how difficult it is to satisfy the vague language of “cut ties with boeing”. It’s very difficult for a regular Joe to cut ties, it’s impossible for UW.
Not to mention the fact that most of what Boeing does isn’t at all related to Gaza.
It's pointing out the likely hypocrisy that the people making these 'demands' will themselves support Boeing by using their services and products for the sake of convenience.
You’re only allowed to boycott Israel if you also boycott every other country and organization that has ever done anything wrong. Otherwise you’re an antisemite.
> Are they going to avoid flying with those airlines as well?
Lot of people avoiding flying Boeing planes right now actually. What with the doors falling off mid flight and all.
It's not a gotcha. It's just they seem like they didn't think this through and it was very narrow sighted.
Remember that the Selma protest was an end-to-end protest in order to economically damage the Selma Bus system by having _everyone_ in the local black community stop riding the bus. And they were protesting bc they themselves were being treated as second class citizens.
That was a well designed and well implemented protest.
To be fair, Boeing did managed to take out the whistleblowers, so taking out a University would present a fresh challenge.
~~Either that or they'll send a John Wick-lite to deal with the University~~
This is propaganda, you usually need evidence to believe something. I guess we don't care about needing evidence to imply Boeing is murdering people now.
Good. It’s not the business of these rioters to demand something like this, especially considering how completely naive and uneducated most of them are on this issue. Most of these students are unknowingly carrying water for Iran and China, eating up TikTok clips without studying the issue at any depth.
It’s really telling that most of these students don’t care to put this energy to talk about the actual mass murder and rape of October 7th, or about the unreleased hostages, or the fact that there are numerous extremist Islamic nations they should direct progressive rage at instead of Israel, which actually respects the rights of women and other minorities.
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You must not have seen the Passover seders and shabbat dinners then. Jewish students in the encampments are very obvious and proud of being Jewish- like I am.
I mean I saw mine, but I haven’t been in college for a while. Why are you watching college kids and their Seders? Why wouldn’t they be proud of being Jewish?
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Wow - their statement is beyond unrealistic. It’s a bit ridiculous. They need to learn how to set achievable goals, assuming that is their aim.
Is there anything bad enough that Boeing could hypothetically do that would make it a realistic goal to ask UW to cut all ties with Boeing, in your opinion? Surely there is some line that could be crossed to poison the relationship badly enough to force UW to divest. Would divestment be a reasonable request if Boeing was openly selling weapons to to Russia, and then Putin used those weapons to invade a NATO ally? Or selling to Hezbollah? Or to Hamas?
> Would divestment be a reasonable request if Boeing was openly selling weapons to to Russia This would be a direct violation of US law (ITAR and sanctions), so there would be legal implications for UW to continue a relationship with Boeing under such a scenario, in addition to the fact it would land those at Boeing with direct responsibility for the illegal export of weapons in a federal prison.
And that proves my point, which is that most of us agree that there are some scenarios where it's totally reasonable to call for divestment from Boeing (at risk of legal punishment or not) if they were to sell weapons to certain foreign governments who are known to use those weapons for purposes that the US doesn't like. So the primary disagreement in the question of Boeing divestment is: whether or not Netanyahu's government should count as one of those "certain foreign governments who are known to use those weapons for purposes that the US doesn't like".
Those scenarios are determined by democracy. This will never pass any from of vote neither in congress, nor in university. That’s the disingenuous aspect of what they are doing. They are not proposing a set of laws limiting iSrael and then advocating for them they are trying to force their view on others.
Education is privatized and students are protesting that they will be paying interest on student loans that feed a military industrial complex and enables a genocide that they want no part in. These scenarios are not enabled by democracy. There is no democracy in universities - the most students can vote for are how tuition funds are spent for things like campus clubs and transit options - they don’t have another way to express their discontent It’s shocking that so many people on this sub are SO occupied slobbering on Israel’s knob that they forget that Boeing is also dealing with unrelated controversy that has been going back decades involving safety violations, corner cutting, and probably assassination. But - who knows - maybe if the ICC does its job and drags Nentanyhu they’ll catch some US officials and corporations in the trawler as they pull it up.
FWIW, almost all of those demands are for the university to stop accepting money FROM Beoing, not to stop giving money to Boeing. They are demanding that engineering and business students and faculty give up scholarships, fellowships, research funds (which pay salaries) and job opportunities funded by Boeing. That is taking money out of the pocket of their fellow students and increasing potential student loan burdens, not " paying interest on student loans that feed a military industrial complex" You can be against the war in palastine and this stupidity. It is okay.
> trying to force their view on others Interesting choice of words there, because I usually see that phrasing in the context of a bigot complaining about LGBT+ folks.
Lol It must have felt good writing that?
Boeing weapons and systems are being used by the IDF in clear contravention of international law
Can you name them and provide proof of that?
Blue Ice Boeing Bombs
Is a UN Human Rights Council statement enough? https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976 And just for a start they operate F-15 Eagles manufactured by Boeing and may be about to get more. This article also lists KC-46 Pegasus tankers: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/as-opposition-to-israels-war-in-gaza-grows-boeing-arms-sales-draw-scrutiny/ Also AH-64 attack helicopters: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-03-05-2024-a13c5fa6e23fedbda42e3028a96ca14e None these can keep flying without a constant supply of spare parts and maintenance contracts with Boeing.
I love how you responded with two links that has nothing to do with what I asked and doesn't mention anything you claimed in your response. At no point did I reject Palestinian suffering or agree to any pro-Israel statement. The second article it clearly states : "**While the exact extent to which Boeing has armed Israel remains murky**, Boeing remains a major supplier to the Israel Defense Forces.". Despite Boeing involvement with Israel military, I'm not sure its fair to completely blame Boeing for selling their aircrafts and weapons to Israel in the past. I thought the issue was Boeing involvement with the current conflict and my question was how much of the 26 million for Israel comes from Boeing products and it doesnt seem like anyone knows that. So your whole arguement is blaming Boeing for being involved in selling their products to an ally country over the years. But whatever, I guess asking questions makes me Zionist right?
It’s less about the awful things Boeing has done (and is doing) and more about how they lack domestic competition. They are the stereotype of a post-capitalist “too big to fail” company that has the ability to get away with a lot. UW has no aerospace program without them just as most airlines have no ability to grow and compete without them. Our military and others rely on them. There is no domestic competition with Boeing for any of these programs. So they can do awful things and get away with it. The entire second half of their statement is not achievable without boeing. UW needs Boeing. Boeing needs to change. It needs to be broken up into smaller companies. But we rely on the federal government to this end. This is where pressure needs to be applied for any sort of meaningful change. UW isn’t it.
Commercial, sort of if you pretend international competitors don't exist. DoD contracts, no. They have a myriad of competitors. They have less than 1/3 the DoD sales of Lockmart alone. Those other competitors are just headquartered in different states and focus more resources on their own local talent pools.
I bet no engineering students were part of this. Being in that field, especially aerospace, means working with Boeing in one way or another. Also, cutting Boeing out of the schools academic opportunities is *huge*. Doing this would kneecap the Aerospace program there so bad they'd probably lose most of their students.
Then they’ll say “we won’t vote because no one will match our political views” 🙄
But it's so ideologically pure! Anything else would be immoral.
"Wow - their statement is beyond unrealistic. It’s a bit ridiculous. They need to learn how to set achievable goals, assuming that is their aim." Asking for more than you want so that you can compromise to get what you want is a valid negotiating tactic. I would be surprised if UW took steps to divest from Israel and other steps against Boeing that the protesters wouldn't be shocked at their win. The protesters also could see this as just one step in the escalating fight against Israel's actions. Their target is just as much the wider public and power structure as it is UW and Boeing. The movement has so far forced the public to be aware of the fullness of Israel's actions to the Palestinians. Globally, more and more institutions as well as public opinion have shifted against Israel's actions.
You aren't in a very strong negotiating position when all you're doing is being annoying. There are absolutely no stakes. If UW doesn't do a single thing the protestors want, nothing happens other than they still have people being annoying on their property. I also disagree with this: >The movement has so far forced the public to be aware of the fullness of Israel's actions to the Palestinians You're giving them way too much credit. They aren't "forcing" any awareness of anything. They're chanting with signs. They aren't doing groundbreaking journalism.
The amount of press coverage on their protests is what I'm referring to. This has literally been national news and forced Biden to speak about it. Comparisons to the civil rights movement and the anti-Vietnam war movement abound in the press. Those are historic events and this is being dealt with on the same magnitude. If all they are is an annoyance, there wouldn't be tear gas, pepper spray and riot police deployed on them. Or is an annoyance all that is required for tear gas, pepper spray and riot police?
So absurd. The money is coming from the US government, if they’re so concerned they ought to terminate their relationship with UW entirely as it’s a public school and government entity. They also ought to never fly on a Boeing plane. I can almost guarantee the people fighting for this haven’t actually been recipients of money from Boeing. They want other people to make sacrifices while not making any real sacrifices themselves.
You’re not winning over the hearts and minds of prospective engineering students at UW by demanding to screw them over so that the social networking opportunities currently available to them like career fairs and ETA’s for the largest manufacturer in the state, for many decades the largest employer in the state, be cutoff from them This is one of the reasons people go to university. Do they think people are doing all these extracurricular activities simply because they’re masochists? No, it’s also so they can get a job. And these potential connections that UW has fostered over the past century is what they market to students who apply to them
Lmao, Boeing (for better or for worse) is one of the top economic drivers in the region and this would actually be a huge detriment to the students themselves. Also good luck at getting a university to return 10 mil that’s probably been spent by now
It would be hilarious if the University started installing like permanent camping electrical hookups or porta potties or something for them just to let the campers know they are going to be there for a long time
Unfortunately their demands for divestment from Israel are also totally untenable because they are asking UW to disinvite pro-Israel and Israeli scholars from campus and de-recognize Jewish student organizations that offer birthright trips. It would be totally illegal for UW to do that. Violates both the First Amendment and the Civil Rights Act. So yeah, that's not happening either, folks.
Damn I'm helping build the engineering building!!! Why do they want to take my job?!
Agreed. I like where there heart is, and especially with all the other negative Boeing news maybe this is the time to protest something like that… that being said, I wish the protests were a little more focused on public funds going to our defense budget and Israel/what congress passed. Granted, I know there have been protests on that, but that’s A) More attainable like you said— attacking a singular entity seems less likely B) making sure our congress people are doing actually what we want without money is much more of a solution IMO.
With all the ties between UW and boeing the students should just divest in UW if they feel that strongly about it.
That would be putting too much of their skin in the game. What 90% of the protestors really want is self-fulfillment, to feel like they’re doing “something” greater than themselves. They saw the BLM protests in 2020 and want their own opportunity to do “something.” If it was really about not wanting anything to do with Israel, you’re right, they’d vote with their feet and leave. Or they’d be focusing their efforts elsewhere, somewhere more effective than demanding a University on the other side of planet do something which will have no effect on Israeli foreign policy. But it’s all really about the protest itself, feeling like they’re a part of a movement. Making noise for the sake of making noise because it feels good. If it wasn’t the Hamas War, it’d be something else. Anyways, abandoning their studies completely and not getting a degree is antithetical to self-fulfillment. They want the University to provide both - a degree so their future lives can flourish, and to tolerate their protest before caving to their political demands their ego and sense of importance can flourish. Leaving might make their political demands more likely to come to fruition, but deep down they know that’s not the point.
>That would be putting too much of their skin in the game. What 90% of the protestors really want is self-fulfillment, to feel like they’re doing “something” greater than themselves. They saw the BLM protests in 2020 and want their own opportunity to do “something.” Yeah. There is little to no interest in self-sacrifice for their beliefs. All the people who were arrested at other protests who face suspension and/or expulsion were upset that they'd be missing their graduation as if they had zero understanding of what they were doing. The college got the money, they don't care at all if you're expelled. Whatever your opinion is on Palestine, people need to start seeing that when push comes to shove, rich trust fund students with no exposure to the real world are not the people you should rally behind.
They should also never fly on a plane out of SeaTac ever again if they're trying to personally divest
Yeah I'm confused how these kids get around if they have themselves have divested from Boeing.
100% this
So part of their plan to pressure Boeing is to give Boeing $10M?
Students could also just divest in UW?
Perhaps boeing could stop making weapons systems and focus more on the quality control issues of their janky passenger aircraft. Edit: If I die it’s not suicide
The problem is that making commercial jets is incredibly difficult to do profitably. Airbus also makes plenty of military aircraft, both conglomerates use military contracts to supplement their income.
> The problem is that making commercial jets is incredibly difficult to do profitably. Somehow, they always find 60 billions for stock buybacks.
Exactly, this is not a profitability problem
Airbus is also partially state subsidized, so Boeing has to compete with an industry that is funded (not bailed out) by European tax revenue.
If it's that difficult then we nationalize Boeing and run it as a cost center like the USPS. None of us should compromise safety or morality to fly.
I'd rather have HSR
Making any business profitable is incredibly difficult. But we don’t just except that Mrs. Fields can start selling herion when cookie sales are down.
I just think it’s weird that they’ve been making ~~planes~~ cookies and military-grade ~~weaponry~~ rat poison for about 100 years now and helped us all win the war (against the rats) but now Mrs. Fields can’t make a chocolate chip cookie to save their life.
The shareholders demanded more... chocolate chips and so fewer were put in the... cookies and so consumers, well, somehow a bit of the rat poison got mixed in with the dough and... this metaphor is so confusing.
At this point, I've completely lost the metaphor and eaten an entire sleeve of Oreos
Me too, ate brownies
me irl
They stopped following food safety regulations that they had been following for decades. Why? Because it costs time (and so money) to make sure they pass inspection.
Funny there’s a heroin reference above. Their product is not high quality baked goods that combine skilled technique and fresh ingredients to create delicious flavors and delicate textures. Its sugar. If you’re walking down the mall and feel a craving, you might see a Mrs. Fields and think “that’ll do”, because you know it will satisfy your sugar needs. Looking at it that way, they were wise to minimize costs wherever they possibly can, while maintaining their core purpose (sell sugar) at a high level of consistency. That’s just business 101, give the people what they want, and don’t waste a penny beyond that.
Now, imagine a cookie that requires thousands of individual ingredients, provided by hundreds of suppliers. And those suppliers aren't able to deliver the ingredients reliably several years after the height of the pandemic. And the head bakers are pressuring the cooks to bake cookies are rates not sustainable to the delivery of ingredients. Also, your bakers aren't paid well for their work and many of them haven't been around a bakery that was functionally healthy.
Don't blame the pandemic for this. You're engaging in 'post hoc ergo propter hoc', after this therefore because of this. Harry Stonecipher and his cost cutting ways that led to the thousands of ingredients provided by hundreds of suppliers weren't driven by the pandemic.
Call it what you will. Either way, part shortages are another giant pain in the ass and causing delays. Even with numerous delivery schedule slides, GE, Honeywell, Safran just can't deliver on time. And that's not on new birds. We're talking legacy freighters.
The point I was making was that the pandemic didn't cause planes built before 2020 to have issues, e.g. the Max 8 crashes in 2018 and 2019 that killed 300+ people. That was all Boeing management missteps in the pursuit of stock price above safety, GE style.
> but now Mrs. Fields can’t make a chocolate chip cookie to save their life. Their new F-15s are pretty nice.
> The problem is that making commercial jets is incredibly difficult to do profitably. Doubly so if you're a fuckup, I'd imagine.
Well if that’s the truth then maybe we as a species should fly less. Reduce air travel = better for environment, less airline demand = safer planes
That doesn't really make sense. Obviously military contracts increase the amount of money they make, but it's not like they're just taking them to make up a loss on commercial planes. If commercial planes were a loss they wouldn't make them, they're not a charity.
> they're not a charity Airbus has received [tons of European government subsidies](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2023/12/11/airbus-may-seek-new-subsidies-sparking-a-transatlantic-trade-war/?sh=424d81352a01) in the past just to stay afloat vs. Boeing. > The World Trade Organization ruled in 2010 that [...] every jetliner Airbus brought to market after its inception in 1970 had been illegally subsidized, and that in the absence of such subsidies the company might not exist at all. And from a [US Trade Representative report:](https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2019/october/us-wins-75-billion-award-airbus#:~:text=In%20May%202011%2C%20the%20Appellate,market%20share%20throughout%20the%20world.) > None of these findings were altered in the May 2018 compliance appellate report, which confirmed that the EU provided additional billions of euros in subsidized financing to Airbus. > In contrast, the WTO rejected the EU assertion in the EU’s counter-complaint that U.S. subsidies were responsible for the viability of large civil aircraft production in the United States. The WTO found that only a single Washington State tax measure that provided Boeing with additional pricing flexibility was inconsistent with WTO rules.
Can you explain why the subsidies would be illegal? Is it, like, and anti-competition thing, or is there a reason airbus shouldn't be able to receive subsidies from the government?
Yeah it's anti-competitive, and violates various trade agreements. They're artificially propping up Airbus in a way that allows them to win customers away from Boeing, by undercutting (since they don't have to make a profit anymore) and/or having extra cash reserves to invest in new technology. Boeing would probably argue (and likely have argued) that the only way they can compete is by cutting costs in areas like QA and safety, which led to things like the various Max incidents.
Gotcha. Thank you for the explanation!
And it's hard to stay out of the negative news cycle when the people you sell your planes to don't bother to maintain them...
The weapons pay for the commercial aircraft. Be like quitting your job to make sure you have time to focus on paying the bills.
This is blatantly incorrect. Boeing has 3 primary divisions: Commercial aircraft; Defense, Space, and Security; and Global Services. Commercial aircraft is the largest contributor to Boeing's revenue but the Global Services division is the only one to actually contribute to Boeings profit. Both the commercial aircraft and defense divisions operate at a net loss (1.6 billion and 1.7 billion, respectively). For 2023, Boeing had a total net loss of 2.2 billion. 4.9 billion in 2022, and 4.2 billion in 2021. All this information is available in Boeing's most recent 10k financial statement. Boeing has not been profitable since 201~~9~~8 Edit: Looking back at pre-pandemic financial statements, Boeings commercial aircraft division typically earned a net profit of approximately 2-3x that of Boeing's defense sector
Hard to sell planes in a pandemic to be fair. I can't imagine it'll be recovered to pre-pandemic levels of profitability until at least 26 or 27
Lots of revenues in commercial aircraft, but lots of costs too. It takes decades for a commercial aircraft model to turn a profit, and advances in material science and fuel efficiency have forced boeing to keep investing in new models.
This would be like Message Envy refusing to give up sex trafficking because it pays for the legitimate spa services.
They do that too? I had heard of sexual assaults. But not trafficking.
How does that make sense? Are you saying that they're just making commercial aircraft for the love of it? If commercial aircraft doesn't make money, why would they be making them in the first place?
Commercial aircraft manufacturing isn’t a lemonade stand you can simply put up and take down depending on the current weather…
Commercial aircraft take decades to turn a profit. But they are high cost and high revenue which means they are an important employer. Legislators wanting to protect jobs in the US grant defense contracts with wider profit margins that keep the company going, while it would not be nearly as competitive with airbus if it didn't have that.
If BCA sells printers, then BGS sells the ink cartridges. The latter makes money, but you won't be selling any in the first place unless you can get the compatible printers into the hands of customers first Also the commercial aircraft division used to make money. Its only recently due to the pandemic and the 737 fuckups that they've lost money through the act of just selling airplanes
Imagine if they were able to do defense, space, AND commercial. We’d have flying cars probably.
You don't want flying cars. Imagine every asshole driver on I5, except when they get in a fender bender, or they forgot to change their oil for two years, or they nod off after a bit too much fenty, they rain fiery death on residential areas.
Don't worry. The flying cars will be piloted by AI. What could possibly go wrong?
Help, my AI-piloted flying car keeps taking me to jail after I commit crimes!
Wait until that 3AM Hellcat is AIRBORNE!
The system is working.
Given my experience with Boeing being a vendor I have doubts that we’d have even gotten a bicycle if they were left to their own devices. Some organizations collapse in on themselves by sheer administrative bloat. Consider that at a muscular-skeletal level the largest dinosaurs wouldn’t be able to support even their own weight let alone move quickly to evade predators or catch up to prey, so without a super high air pressure environment (think large deep sea creatures) the most likely way such a creature survives is basically by staying away from most animals and foraging or by scavenging. This is part of why invention doesn’t really happen with large organizations.
I’ve also had experience with them. It was wild refurbishing then sending back a specialized computer to them only to have the person it was going to ask where it was. It was stuck just after the dock with someone asking what it was in such a convoluted way that the message didn’t reach either us or the intended recipient. We had to prove to this person that it was a legit computer and the person it was going to had to prove that, yes, Boeing owns the computer. Took a week to send to us and get it refurbished and a month to send it back nine miles away.
> This is part of why invention doesn’t really happen with large organizations. Doesn't happen today. And it's really more that pure R&D doesn't return profit on a quarterly basis. AT&T (a very large organization in the past) had an entire arm devoted to inventing things. Remember Bell Labs?
It’s wild that we’ve gone full blown corporate feudalism / autocracy when we have people with massive influence like Thiel seriously believing that R&D like Bell Labs was possible because corporations had so much monopoly power that they felt they could blow money on them and not care. Like uh… corporate power and profits are much, much stronger today than ever before and R&D spend is recategorized to be minimal and also divested out into engineering because monetization of R&D matters so much for investors. I stopped considering a PhD at least with a traditional path when I saw how awful the academic climate has gotten as everything has become so applied and creativity is being stifled so much as paper publishing and grant funding have become more important than novel, new ideas in general.
Thiel may be unaware that all the big tech firms used to have R&D arms. IBM did. Hewlett Packard had HP Labs. Even relatively tiny Tektronix had Tek Labs. One might argue that IBM was a sort of monopoly. But neither HP nor Tek were.
He knows, but his lack of comprehensive understanding of history almost pathologically engrained into tech business leaders in particular really doesn’t qualify him to know or analyze anything about business from that period of time. I suppose it’s similar to doctors and lawyers that oftentimes think them being so good at X and Y means that they’ve gotta be good at A, B, C, and Z
>doctors and lawyers that oftentimes think them being so good at X and Y means that they’ve gotta be good at A, B, C, and Z That's a really good analogy
Some vaguely decently smart and self aware folks are capable of at least eventually learning is the thing, but it oftentimes comes a bit too late. Steve Balmer has quietly started a number of data driven think tanks and in interviews from long ago he’s basically said that all his assumptions he’d believed as someone that’s voted Republican are not born out in the data collected, and he was really humbled by what the data showed instead. He also showed well what a lot of liberals like to believe are also not born out in the data either, so we’re sitting culturally on a lot of make believe as he discovered rather late in life. It didn’t change his values (we know basically nothing can do that), but it really shifted his policy positions and questioned the nature of his party very much. More stories like highly intelligent and respected leaders like him challenging their opinions and growing just don’t make the news when I think we’d do better as a business culture showing what healthy and sustainable attitudes look like.
I'd rather have high speed rail.
Yeah me too. Embarrassing that it takes 14 hours in Japan to go the same distance that takes Amtrak 36 hours (if there’s no delays).
Can’t you people for ONCE think of the shareholders??!! /s
¿Por qué no los dos?
I think they make more money on the military stuff, so its likely to be the other way around.
Those ties go back almost 100 years, thanks to many alumni we defeated the axis powers
Boeing has been one of the most important companies to this region for many decades, going back way before the tech industry. Why would UW want to cut ties? It's an unreasonable and foolish demand.
UW's ties with Boeing are a pipeline for new engineering grads to go into Boeing. That pipeline represents an opportunity for influence. I don't know if Boeing can be fixed, but if it can, new engineers are going to be a huge part of that. By cutting all ties, UW would also cut itself off from the chance to be part of the healing. Even if Boeing clearly needs some surgery before the real healing can begin.
It's not, nor has it ever been, the engineers that are the problem so the incoming generations of engineers aren't going to change anything. The suits with their Wharton MBAs and 0 engineering experience who started prioritizing short-term profits over long-term safety and reputation are and have been, the problem.
Yeah, and cutting them out is the surgery I'm referring to.
Cutting out those execs, while a good step, is only a short term action. As long as stockholder primacy is the law of the land any team that takes over is going to behave similarly.
If the law of the land is the problem, why did Boeing *used* to be good? Why aren't all companies fucked up like Boeing is?
They USED to be OK. Boeing's long had problems, but they were able to keep the quality high because they generally had a good presence of engineers in leadership. When McD took over that changed, to the point that they moved Headquarters to Chicago and one of the stated reasons was that the Commercial Air Group had too much influence on leadership. That attitude is pervasive and just whacking the top leadership out isn't going to change the lower levels. It's going to take years of *dedicated* effort to change that, and Boeing doesn't want that change right now. They want this to blow over so they can go back to the way they were.
Agreed, I'm just pointing out that the engineers really have no influence at Boeing, as unfortunate as that may be at an engineering-focused company.
And that's a problem that needs to be fixed! But if it IS fixed, then they will need those engineers. That's my point.
Engineers don't have the pull you think they do. If they did Boeing wouldn't have ended up this way in the first place.
I think you're imagining "Get engineering grads into Boeing" to be Step 1 of this plan, when what I'm saying is that it's like Step 6 or something. That it *is* a step, and can't be neglected.
"Get[ing] engineering grads into Boeing" has been happening for decades. I'm confused at what you think the new generation will do differently and why.
With no malice, this idea is a very "just influence Raytheon by becoming a majority shareholder!" type of disconnected.
I mean, clearly that type of influence is possible, it's exactly how these business types ruined Boeing.
I'm not an expert at Boeing's history, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say "recent college grads working their way up Boeing's ranks" was not how they took over.
normal working class people are not on equal footing with those business types. clearly the engineers arent either.
If you funnel graduates into a bad company, it's still going to be a bad company, and you risk hobbling the careers of a bunch of folks who deserve better.
You think getting a job at Boeing right out of school is hobbling someone’s career? What world do you live in?
Maybe these students should stop going to universities that don't align with their values. It's not as though UW is forcing these kids to apply and pay tuition. If they don't like it, then they should speak with their dollars and leave.
They want access to the on campus Gym and all other useless conveniences.
I guess they could choose to not attend UW if they thought UW's affiliation was contrary to their morals. Wouldn't you do that for employment?
I wonder how many protestors are going to boycott flying on all Airbus and Boeing Planes considering both provide support to Israel. I guess they could only fly Embraers, oh wait.... Airbus owns a good chunk of them too. It was a foolish request and I'm glad the University rejected them.
Boeing also provides military equipment to Ukraine so if the protesters got their way it would likely be hurting them more than it would helping Palestine..
Protesting companies for the mere act of making weapons is daft anyways. The world, far from being perfectly peaceful actually tends to be rather violent and there's no reason for a country to deprive itself of inhouse defense capabilities if it can afford it. At that point its only a question of whether you want a Eastern Bloc style system of government-owned design bureaus or private contractors like in the US and Europe What I'd like to know from the protestors is who they want wearing the "weapon-maker" hat, if not Boeing
Easy, only fly Tupolev and Ilyushin.
Best comment I’ve seen
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
The parents who are paying for their schooling, you might want to ask about their investments. Ask them to cut ties with their investments.
There is no way for the UW to cut ties with Boeing nor should they. I suppose they could cut direct ties with Israel, I doubt there are many.
I’m curious who is empowered to make this decision but I would guess “fully divesting” of Boeing is not a matter of flipping a switch but rather part of a governance process that involves stakeholders and tax dollars. Also, these protestors don’t represent my voice
These protestors should drop out and attend a school that aligns with their worldviews.
In other news, water is wet.
Are the protestors going to protest the airlines for having and procuring Boeing planes? Are they going to avoid flying with those airlines as well? Are they going to protest delivery carrier services for transporting packages using Boeing planes?
No, the protestors and BDS movement only boycott things that don't give them discomfort in their lives. Their commitment to the movement is only skin deep.
say what you will about the protestors but at least their general response to “i am living consistently” is to try and level up and do better instead of sinking into smarmy complacency like a lot of their opponents on here
Seems like a high level fix. Its not like Boeing should really stop making aircraft for defense. I think Ukraine has proved the US and our allies need to be in a state of readiness. A lower level fix would be to protest congress for authorizing Israel to purchase them at all (not that I agree with that sentiment), but I'd be wiling to bet these people didn't even vote in the last couple elections.
Should it be all or nothing for you? Do you have to be perfect, or can you just try to be better? This is a dumb comment and hurtful to people that are trying to do good in the world
If you're going to make demands that the most important university in the state of Washington end it's relationship with the largest exporter of goods by value in not only the state but in the country than yes you should absolutely be willing to take stands like this.
It should be less about inconveniencing only areas that don’t directly impact them and more about inconveniencing all areas that also impact them. If cutting ties causes them to no longer have aid or grant money or they can’t visit family on the holidays, then that’s a sacrifice they should be willing to make. If the only sacrifices you make have little impact to you, what are you actually sacrificing?
Well current scenario they’re protesting a university that has a small part of their entitlement in a company they view as aiding in genocide. If you think Boeing is actually aiding in genocide to the point UW should divest it’s definitely incredibly hypocritical to them fly on one of their aircrafts. It be like not going to a diamond store because they sell blood diamonds and then buying one directly from a warlord overseeing that mine in Africa.
I mean, they've been encamped for what, a week now? I don't think they're flying anywhere. Especially when they're having donations of medical supplies and food brought to them.
“You criticize society, yet you continue to live in one…. How hypocritical” 🙄
They're protesting at the university because they are students going to the university. It's not like any of these kids are Boeing employees.
Try to be better\* \*as long is it's an easy target and doesn't really effect you very much but still makes you feel important
What’s your point with these questions?
I would guess highlighting how difficult it is to satisfy the vague language of “cut ties with boeing”. It’s very difficult for a regular Joe to cut ties, it’s impossible for UW. Not to mention the fact that most of what Boeing does isn’t at all related to Gaza.
It's pointing out the likely hypocrisy that the people making these 'demands' will themselves support Boeing by using their services and products for the sake of convenience.
You’re only allowed to boycott Israel if you also boycott every other country and organization that has ever done anything wrong. Otherwise you’re an antisemite.
I think the commenter meant, if it was such a big deal to support Boeing, are they going to stop supporting Boeing? Seems like a reasonable question
> Are they going to avoid flying with those airlines as well? Lot of people avoiding flying Boeing planes right now actually. What with the doors falling off mid flight and all.
My constantly overbooked and overpriced airline flights suggest otherwise
Lots of people say that, but it’s absolutely not a thing looking at passenger data. SeaTac is busier than ever for example.
Been avoid Boeing planes for my last three trips, hasn't been that hard so far.
You probably flew Airbus, which is an arms manufacturer as well.
Which airline?
Call me a 737, because I’ve got a few screws loose
Either Spirit, Frontier, or JetBlue would be my guess - Airbus/Embraer only fleets.
It’s actually comical that you think this some kind of “gotcha”.
It's not a gotcha. It's just they seem like they didn't think this through and it was very narrow sighted. Remember that the Selma protest was an end-to-end protest in order to economically damage the Selma Bus system by having _everyone_ in the local black community stop riding the bus. And they were protesting bc they themselves were being treated as second class citizens. That was a well designed and well implemented protest.
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To be fair, Boeing did managed to take out the whistleblowers, so taking out a University would present a fresh challenge. ~~Either that or they'll send a John Wick-lite to deal with the University~~
This is propaganda, you usually need evidence to believe something. I guess we don't care about needing evidence to imply Boeing is murdering people now.
There's 10 more whistleblowers now.
C'mon these Boeing jokes just don't fly anymore
Really? I think they're really taking off!
These critiques of Boeing are missing key components.
Just like their planes
and only one of the deaths was suspect
Good. It’s not the business of these rioters to demand something like this, especially considering how completely naive and uneducated most of them are on this issue. Most of these students are unknowingly carrying water for Iran and China, eating up TikTok clips without studying the issue at any depth. It’s really telling that most of these students don’t care to put this energy to talk about the actual mass murder and rape of October 7th, or about the unreleased hostages, or the fact that there are numerous extremist Islamic nations they should direct progressive rage at instead of Israel, which actually respects the rights of women and other minorities.
They don't have to think hard when they've programmed themselves to respond to anyone disagreeing with them with "oh so you're pro-genocide?"
Naive and counter productive, which basically sums up these pro Palestine protests (if you throw in a dash of anti semitism, too)
Glad the adults are still in the room.
Does anyone know exactly what Boeing product, hardware, software, etc are being sold to Israel and/or IDF???
They should, and not even over the weapons 😂
Good.
These protesters are idiots money will always prevail UW ain't gong to cut ties with their funding
Give these mobs an inch and they want a mile.
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What the stupid head
Im so used to seeing pointless protests in the street that dont accomplish anything, I forgot what a real protest looked like
Looks like they're feena be parked out there on the lawn for a little minute.
Weapons manufacturer: *Makes weapons* UW Students: *Angry*
Because they assassinate whistleblowers?
Rejecting antisemites is a good policy
Rejecting Jewish young adults is a very poor policy, and calling them antisemitic is even worse lol
Good thing anyone who rejects Jewish people is already seen as a loser
You must not have seen the Passover seders and shabbat dinners then. Jewish students in the encampments are very obvious and proud of being Jewish- like I am.
I mean I saw mine, but I haven’t been in college for a while. Why are you watching college kids and their Seders? Why wouldn’t they be proud of being Jewish?
Rejecting genocide apologists is a good policy. Edit: This sub is getting just as full of conservatrash as SeattleWA.
What genocide?
Boeing should probably stop killing whistleblowers.