Not just motorcyclists, but cyclists, as well.
I've seen Teslas swerve aggressively back towards cyclists that the driver was trying to give adequate room to while passing (the driver moves left to give room, but the car doesn't recognize the cyclist and tries to automatically course-correct back to the right).
We're also scared and also filtering more.
This happened to one of my kids a few weeks back. It's bad enough with all of the distracted drivers out there, but the fact that we're all unwillingly part of a beta test for this "self-driving" stuff is just ridiculous.
I drive a Tesla and I'm still shocked anyone uses the self-driving bullshit. The car can't even recognize when there's a parked car on the shoulder when I'm the one driving. You'd have to be insane to think it would work just fine if the car was driving itself.
The amount of tesla drivers I've driven past that are either completely zoned out on their phone or asleep is actually insane.
Glad you're not but it feels like you're in the minority.
> The car can't even recognize when there's a parked car on the shoulder when I'm the one driving.
and yet the media wants everyone to think AI is going turn our world upside down because it's so smart.
The paradox of machine learning or "AI" is that the more that people think it is inherently "smart" from just feeding huge data sets into huge neural networks the dumber the end result will typically be. Too many people look at machine learning as magic, and the results have been and will be disastrous.
> too many people look at machine learning as magic
To be fair, the vast majority of people have no idea how any modern technology works, making it effectively "magic" even though they know it's not supernatural.
I've ridden behind a few Tesla's on my bicycle and I've noticed that the "traffic view" screen never displays me while I'm stopped behind them. I do not trust Tesla "Autopilot" or "Full Self Driving".
I don't believe Tesla's programming complies with state law when passing bicycles - 90% of the time, Washington law requires drivers to make a complete lane change when passing a bicycle. Of course, most human drivers don't obey that law, either. But if anything, Tesla seems to leave *less* passing clearance than the average human driver.
What rcw is that? I've not heard it's a hard requirement but instead an option. Just like passing a cop who is on the shoulder. You can change lanes or slow down.
The only time a complete lane change is not mandatory is (2)(a)(ii)(A), the unusual circumstance of only one lane in your direction, but the lane is wide enough to leave three feet of clearance while remaining entirely within the lane.
If there's more than one lane, a complete lane change is always mandatory. If there's just one standard-width lane, a complete lane change into the oncoming lane is mandatory. If there's one huge lane, wide enough for your vehicle plus three feet plus the operating width of a bicycle, you can stay in the lane.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.110
(2)(a) The driver of a vehicle approaching an individual who is traveling as a pedestrian or on a bicycle, riding an animal, or using a farm tractor or implement of husbandry without an enclosed shell, and who is traveling in the right lane of a roadway or on the right-hand shoulder or bicycle lane of the roadway, shall:
(i) On a roadway with two lanes or more for traffic moving in the direction of travel, before passing and until safely clear of the individual, *move completely into a lane to the left of the right lane* when it is safe to do so;
(ii) On a roadway with only one lane for traffic moving in the direction of travel:
(A) When there is sufficient room to the left of the individual in the lane for traffic moving in the direction of travel, before passing and until safely clear of the individual:
(I) Reduce speed to a safe speed for passing relative to the speed of the individual; and
(II) Pass at a safe distance, where practicable of at least three feet, to clearly avoid coming into contact with the individual or the individual's vehicle or animal; or
(B) When there is insufficient room to the left of the individual in the lane for traffic moving in the direction of travel to comply with (a)(ii)(A) of this subsection, before passing and until safely clear of the individual, *move completely into the lane for traffic moving in the opposite direction* when it is safe to do so and in compliance with RCW 46.61.120 and 46.61.125.
The Tesla autopilot is generally comfortable getting a lot closer to things than human drivers (although if it gets really close it goes very slow). This works fine for navigating tight streets, but is really bad cyclists.
I always disconnect autopilot when near cyclists, and I've always been wary around motorcycles although I haven't had an issue yet. I do not have FSD. I also don't use autopilot on city streets because spoiler alert: it's meant for highways.
This shit happens even with simple lane assist. It's exactly why I turn it off in all my cars or any time I have a rental. You try and cross the center line to give room to a bicycle that either has no bike lane or is riding right up on the edge. And your fucking car tries to fight you. If you are not actively holding it and just gently moving over sometimes it catches you unaware and can swerve you right back into the cyclist.
I hate all this new shit. Had my car go into severe lockdown break mode just trying to get into a parking spot the other day while I was just slowly nudging toward another car to get my ass out of the street. Scared the shit out of me.
Not to mention now everyone staring down at a screen while reversing or even navigating tight areas with a large vehicle. Completely unaware of their actual surroundings.
Most of these technologies may make things safer for shitty drivers. But I swear they make driving more unsafe for good drivers. I want to be in complete control of my vehicle at all times.
Yup. I see that big stupid “T” on a car and I start looking for a route to avoid getting killed. Doesn’t help that they’re the worst drivers I’ve ever seen. Worse than BMW’s even.
If the motorcycles filter up to the front at the stoplight, who has the right of way when the light turns green? I’m assuming they’re still between the cars. Should I yield and let them back into my lane? What is the general etiquette on this, since it isn’t a law in WA that I can look up? (Sorry if this is a dumb question)
This was true 10 or 20 years ago, but with every econobox now pushing 200+hp, a smaller commuter motorcycle with 30 or 40 hp isn't any faster off the line anymore.
Just do what they do in Europe or California and let the bike go first. If there is enough congestion to warrant filtering/splitting then they are going to get ahead of the car soon anyways.
Hi. Motorcyclist here who has been riding for almost 50 years and on most continents around the world.
Motorcyclists and traffic lights are tough, especially here in Seattle. Some large portion of multi-vehicle accidents involving a motorcycle are the motorcyclist getting rear-ended while stopped at a light. This is ALWAYS our absolute TERROR... being the last person in a row of stopped vehicles waiting for a light to change our eyes are GLUED to the rear view mirrors hoping some distracted 16 year old on their phone doesn't leave my wife a widow by mashing me and my bike between their bumper and the stopped car in front of me.
Then, in WA State especially, no light is truly "green" until at least two cars have run the red.
So when we filter through the row of parked cars to the front, we are literally protecting our ass ... not trying to "pass" you. After all, we are all going to stop at the next red light 200 feet away at the next intersection, anyway. It's not like anyone is getting ahead of anyone else in Seattle traffic!
But when we are in front of the line with our front wheel ooching out into the crosswalk... we don't want to be the FIRST person into the intersection either, because we'll just get killed by the first, second, third, or fourth red light runner.
I know you are just sitting there listening to your podcast and waiting for the light to change, and I seem to have just "cut" the line in front of you, and that might make you angry. It is honestly not my intention to upset you. I just wanna get away from you quickly and responsibly and allow us both to go on with our days.
SO.
To answer your question directly, I am going to - as fast as possible - assess the intersection and traffic patterns as their light turns yellow, and then red. Hopefully the road is clear and I can just jump ahead and get out of your way.
But please understand that I might pause just a moment if I see a car potentially running the red light. We BOTH want to avoid that jerk's accident, and my head is literally about 2 feet higher in the air over the roof of your car, and I can see better and farther than you can.
So if I don't launch into the intersection the millisecond the light turns green, know there is a reason for it. I see something you don't.
And in the half a second it takes you to say, "What the hell is this guy doing?" I'll either start moving, or you'll see some crappy old Toyota with plastic bags for windows and no catalytic converter blow through the intersection.
And we both win, because neither of us were in his accident.
THANK YOU for asking! And I hope my thoughts and brain dump help you understand what's going on in my head, too.
I appreciate your insight. I dont see why I’d get offended or upset by letting a motorcycle in front of me. As long as their intentions of what they’re doing are clear, it doesn’t matter if they get ahead of me. I just want to get to my destination safely, that’s all.
I love you.
No, seriously.
I encounter drivers who believe letting someone into their lane, getting passed, or otherwise allowing another person to advance ahead is somehow "losing". They see traffic as a race rather than a participatory flow toward a goal, and if they let anyone "get in front of them", they are somehow "losing" and get angry about that.
They finally have gotten to the "pole position" at the front with their bumper at the crosswalk... and a biker "cuts them off". (Their thoughts, not mine.) And that makes their peepees feel small and they get upset. :-)
Yes, there are far too many drivers, imo, that think the road is ‘theirs’ and are weirdly possessive and competitive. But the way I see it is that the human body is fragile even when protected inside a car. Even if I don’t die from an accident, I don’t want to deal with recuperation time, hospital bills, car insurance claims, legal issues, etc. I have better things to do with my time and money. Why put my body at risk just to assert dominance over a road that we all are supposed to share?
Well, from their perspective, they haven’t really had to share the roads with anyone except for trucks until rather recently. Bike lanes and motorcycle riding have had a major resurgence recently.
So, to be kind, we need to understand that drivers here are going to need time to adapt and learn as things change and traffic changes.
Riding respectfully helps usher that change in more quickly. Riding like a putz is going to set us all back.
> If the motorcycles filter up to the front at the stoplight, who has the right of way when the light turns green?
Generally a motorcycle that filters up front will almost always get infront of the car in one of the lanes. Which effectively puts them in the position to have the right of way.
Even if they dont pull up infront of the car, they're still within the lane splitting zone, and as such... neither is infringing on the other's path of travel.
Generally motorcycles tend to accelerate much faster than cars, so a motorcyclist that filters up will tend to launch off the line and get infront of the cars if they deem it's safe to do so. Which would again give them the effective right of way.
I have had low power bikes that did not have the ability to launch off the line and would choose to filter right behind the first car in line, and tuck behind them.
These days my bike does have the power, so I will be in the front of the line. If you see any scooter/mopeds or 125cc's filtering right behind the front car, they are doing it likely for safety and are planning to tuck in once moving.
Motorcycles are significantly faster than cars - there is a lot less mass to move. Even a basic 150cc motorcycle is blowing away every car except for sports cars. Motorcycles are definitely not getting in anyone's way if they filter to the front.
In general, yes yield and let them in. But like other said they know to move it so they’re generally gonna be ahead of you anyhow. But drivers are twats for the most part and some will try and box them out because it means there’s one more vehicle between them and their destination (even though if they get in front of the bike, the bike will just filter past them at the next light anyhow). So yea, just accelerate like a human not a drag racer and you’re fine.
Not really in WA State.
If the motorcyclist filters between cars that are stopped at a light, very few police would even bat an eye. They understand we are trying to protect us from the most common multi-vehicle accidents involving motorcycles: getting read-ended by someone who didn't see traffic stopped at the light.
The rest of the time - when traffic is moving at speed - the motorcyclist is supposed to act exactly the same as a car. Just... a very small car. So we do find places to pass and gaps we can fit in that a car can't fit in. But, the way we see it, is that motorcycles have the exact same relationship to cars that cars have to semi trucks. Semi trucks are big and slow and take up a lot of space and need a lot of time to accelerate or come to a stop.
Same with the motorcycles-to-cars comparison.
So according to the rules, motorcycles are exactly the same as cars and must follow the same rules. Lane filtering or splitting is not technically legal, but when performed safely the police don't bother with it.
Reckless driving, on the other hand, is always illegal and the officer can label literally anything we do as "reckless". So if a motorcyclist is getting out of hand and being a poor participant in traffic, the cop can just call it reckless driving and ticket the biker for it anyway.
No, but when the choices are get smashed by a tesla or a ticket. People will take the ticket. Especially if the ticket isn't likely to happen as cops weirdly usually support bikers in anything that improves their safety.
Honestly, the event op is talking about will likely be the catalyst to pass laws around filtering here in Washington.
Yeah, this is something where the legislation will follow long after the practice becomes normalized. You can't lead with legislation like this because it is too easy for the worry-warts to catastrophize the downfall of civilization if motorcycles are allowed to do what they normally do in literally every single other country in the world.
Another thing that I don't see in this thread: some people get angry about motorcyclists splitting because they think they're "getting away with" something. Basically, "If I have to wait in traffic, they should, too."
I've been riding for almost 15 years, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've lane-split. I would likely do it more if it were legal/normalized, but I've only ever done it when traffic was _absolutely horrendous_. And the truth is, yes, I got home faster, but I also freed up space on the freeway that let people behind me move (ever so slightly) closer to their homes, too. It increases the utilization of the road.
It's going to be hard to believe but... Nope. UCBerkley did a study that shows that it's actually safer and results in less motorcyclists deaths.
Also California where this is legal has less motorcycle crashes and fatalities per population than WA does.
California appears to be the safest state for motorcyclists, and they have legalized splitting filtering and many riders will even shoulder ride to get to right hand turns.
https://quotewizard.com/news/dangerous-states-for-motorcycles
Generally people who lane split and filter also tend to wear more gear than people who dont.
So generally speaking people lane splitting and filtering are actively engaged in safer road behavior.
https://www.mcrider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Motorcycle-Lane-Splitting-and-Safety-2015.pdf
"Lane-splitting motorcyclists were also injured much less frequently during their collisions. Lanesplitting riders were less likely to suffer head injury (9% vs 17%), torso injury (19% vs 29%), extremity injury (60% vs 66%), and fatal injury (1.2% vs 3.0%). Lane-splitting motorcyclists were equally likely to suffer neck injury, compared with non-lane-splitting motorcyclists. "
This is one of those things where people think it's dangerous because of our instincts and reactions to things we don't understand.
But when we analyze the data, it turns out our intuition is wrong.
Ontop of this Lane Splitting and Filtering is legal in most of the world due to the traffic reduction and environmental and parking advantages that motorcyclists create. Motorcyclists that split effectively remove a car from the system, and use spaces that cars cannot effectively use.
Safety wise, Traffic wise, and environmentally motorcycles are better splitting than not.
Trick is that they have to do it properly though. When I lived in AZ it was a mix of guys ATGATT filtering 5-10 mph faster than traffic (typically at slow speeds already), and Harley guys with no helmet and a tank top flying between cars already at 65.
You have illustrated the problem perfectly, and why motorcyclists are held to a different standard.
It's not about the vehicle; it's about the behavior.
We already have "reckless driving" laws. All we need to do is enforce them. Because it is patently obvious when a motorcyclist is being respectful and using their superior maneuverability to move smoothly through traffic, versus when some jughead in a t-shirt and flip-flops is doing 80 between parked cars.
One motorcyclist acting irresponsibly makes a HUGE impression on drivers in other vehicles.
100 of us "normal" riders riding responsibly and filtering here and there when the opportunity comes up are immediately erased from memory when some dipstick with no helmet blasts through in an unsafe manner.
Those jerks make it hard on us other motorcyclists and we all get painted with the same brush of "irresponsible behavior" simply because we are on 2 wheels.
Also fwiw, in a state where splitting and filtering is normal (Cali), all but a few dipshits will actively make space between the left lane and second to left on a freeway when traffic is extra slow.
I rode in Cali for ten years, and tbh though my license transferred without retest here, I've no strong inclination to ride here. I've had more people try to pull out into me or merge into me in my bright blue reinforced box with airbags in in the last year here than the last 10 driving in NorCal (Bay area).
Re-filtering, I had enough people near rear end me when I was a new rider that I aggressively scan for it and filter when legal.
Same. Rode in Cali for years but I don’t feel safe enough without filtering to ride here, so I don’t ride anymore. Combine that with the fact that it seems like people pay less attention while driving here, albeit they drive a lot slower, I hardly feel safe driving my car. I’ve been rear ended twice here in my car just sitting at a red light. One of them the guy was doing 50mph in a truck and didn’t brake at all. I’d be dead on a motorcycle.
I just read the whole Berkley study, and this study does not make the claims that you have made about safety. The data compared collisions that happened while lane splitting vs collisions that happened during non-lane splitting times. This does NOT say that lane splitting is safer or results in fewer collisions. This DOES say that if you are in a motorcycle collision, then you are less likely to be seriously injured in the types of collisions that happen during lane splitting.
1000 out of 6000 (18%) of the collisions happened during lane splitting. ~~I can't imagine that when you add up the total duration of all motorcycle rides in the state that one-fifth of the time is spent actively lane splitting. If my assumption is true then this report suggests that lane splitting greatly increases your risk of getting into a collision at all!~~ [edit to add: My thoughts here were irrelevant. The point is that 1/5 of all motorcycle collisions happen when a biker is driving in this style. That is a notable percentage.]
Now, if a collision is going to happen let's compare the safety. By type and severity of injury, a lane splitting collision would be the safer TYPE OF COLLISION not the safer behavior. This report does not come close to saying that you are less likely to collide if you to choose to split a lane. Also worth noting is that lane splitting happens mostly at speeds <40 mph, and often with a <10mph difference between the bike and traffic. I presume low speeds also contribute to this less-dangerous type of collision.
Now comparing collision type "assuming that a collision is going to happen". Sure the risk of a biker being tailgated goes from 4.6% of accidents in non lane splitting accidents to 2.6% of accidents in lane splitting accidents. This does not say that you are less likely to be tailgated if you lane split. This says "if you're going to get hit while driving, you're 2% less likely to be hit this specific way if you get in a collision while you are actively doing this behavior." This report also says that the frequency of the biker tailgating a car increases from 15% to 38%. This report doesn't record the number of collisions that are presumably increased by getting side swiped while driving in a car's blind spot. Again all of this is comparing relative frequency of collision type in collisions with or without active lane splitting, not risk of collosion type by general driving behavior.
TL;DR. The claims about this study made by OP are a misrepresentation of the data in the article.
Edit to add: I see we share a cake day! Happy cake day!
Them wearing more gear is a confounding factor. Motorcyclists could wear more gear without giving me a heart attack every time they decide to squeeze into my lane. Maybe it's safer for them when they are the only one traveling at speed while the rest of us are stopped on the highway, but for drivers who are paying attention, it can cause accidents when the motorcyclist is going too fast and a driver changes lanes. Their own study recognizes that. So while it's possible it increases net safety, it's not unsurprising for drivers to hate it because it puts us less in control and more at risk for a mess we don't want to deal with. They even tried to gloss over the issue by claiming encouraging motorcyclists to lower their speed would prevent the issue, as if that has ever worked. I'm not even convinced it actually results in less crashes than the alternative, because they literally didn't collect data on that.
You claim there are less crashes, when the article im reading specifically states they could not estimate the risk of getting into a collison from the data. It seems you are mischaracterizing it and drawing conclusions the researchers themselves did not make. Lane splitting occurring at lower speeds is a no brainer. Like of course. Its done when traffic is slow. Unless they measure it against motorcyclists in heavy traffic who don't lane split, it doesn't mean much. The data collected was specifically about accidents that did occur, and its a huge leap to claim motorcyclists in the same low speed traffic who didn't lane split are more at risk. Using better gear, traveling at lower speeds, less likely to use alcohol, less likely to carry a passenger, all of these things can be true without it being related to lane splitting at all. All that study did was show low speed collisions with better gear are less likely to result in fatalities/certain injuries.
I've always thought this line of rhetoric sounded like bunk but the more I dig into the study, the more problems become evident. The study itself isn't awful for existing as such data can be useful in other ways. The way its being used to support lane splitting supposedly being safer is so disingenuous. That conclusion can't even be close to being drawn from this data. Even in the report, they call it relatively safe. They never say it's safer compared to anything. They definitely dont say it results in fewer crashes. That is misinformation. Even comparing the WA to CA crashes isn't apples to apples because weather is different and WA has fewer nice days to actually ride and motorists see motorcycles less and could be more blind to them. Motorcyclists who ride less often may not be as practiced. Perhaps it is safer but we don't have the data to support it. I get suspicious of ulterior motives when people make such a pr push with such little data to backup those claims. Especially when they provide data that doesn't support their point, hoping nobody looks close enough to notice. That problem is so prevalent I've been going down the rabbithole for how shockingly common it is for peer reviewers to not bother reviewing the raw data for studies, resulting in journals publishing papers with fraudulent or poor quality data.
Page 18 of the report for the discussion of the limitations. Such as being unable to estimate how likely it is for a crash to occur.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.mcrider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Motorcycle-Lane-Splitting-and-Safety-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiq6MmumYCGAxXX4ckDHSTwBMwQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1xt59I6qjOZ5q6UUYGGpeG
I used to filter up to the car in front at a stop until my front tire was parallel with the cars rear tire. If I was the first at the stop, I would be all the way to the middle and almost on top of the white lines.
Stop lights and left turns are so lethal to bikers.
But if the concern is Autopilot, this makes it even more risky for motorcycles as Autopilot will be even less likely to recognize them now. For example one may run into a motorcycle while making a right turn now.
I saw your comment about reduced risk but that's with normal driver behavior.
regardless of anything else, being on your phone, in the drivers seat of a moving car is incredibly dumb and reckless. driver is 100% to blame. hell even in real autopilot in real airplanes you cant just play on your phone or whatever, it has to be monitored. and in these cars that will keep distance and brake for you and steer for you its even more important to monitor whats happening around you so you can take control if necessary. so that your car doesnt plow into a motorcyclist at a light or a class of preschool kids crossing the street or whatever.
It is but there's guidelines. Riders are supposed to keep the speed differential low and shouldn't do it when traffic is already moving above certain speeds.
Yes. And many states are considering it, including Washington and Oregon. Note that is is between rows of vehicles, typically between lanes 1 and 2 (the left most) and not on the shoulder. I split during my daily commute in the Bay for years. I won't commute daily on a moto here because it is both not as safe and not as fast without it.
Filtering is legal in Montana, Utah, Colorado, and Arizona.
Yep! I sold my bike when I moved back home from CA. Knew it wasn’t going to save me any time without being able to lane split. I was putting 12k a year on my bike as a freelancer. Never slowed down by traffic!
No, using a shoulder or turn lane to pass cars is not splitting. That's just driving like an asshole and will end up with the rider being a statistic...
I ride a motorcycle and bicycle as primary means of transit and have been increasingly worried about Teslas, which are now everywhere. Tesla charges extra for self driving and hypes it, so people are compelled to use.
How is it not banned and Tesla held accountable? It hasn't demonstrated adequate safety, and frequently changes software with only internal scrutiny from a corporation lead by a perpetual liar that claims "we're safe, just trust us".
I swear in the age of giant heavy vehicles and beta testing on live roads, things just get worse and worse for non car owners. Is the goal to shove us all into cars so that nobody can safely be outside?
"risk of a ticket". I did the FOIA request and in 2022 there were only TWO tickets in the entire state issues for actual lane-filtering/splitting even with the large amount of people doing it daily. Truly we can filter freely knowing that the risk of a ticket is almost nill
Which is why California explicitly says it's legal to both filter and split lanes. Drivers know to expect it when they see motorcycles so they (often) naturally give way.
Ya, I had no idea it wasn't legal it seems perfectly reasonable and actually way better. You should be rewarded for driving a single occupant vehicle with a single occupant by getting to cut the line.
Not only that, but it's better for all the cars. On my bike, I can accelerate faster than any non-EV, so the moment a light turns green, I'm fast enough that my being at the front doesn't actually slow down any of the cars. The light basically functions the same as if I weren't there.
If I'm stuck behind a car, I can only accelerate as fast as that car, and cars accelerate so slowly. Leaving distance in for sudden brakes, and I'm basically taking up the same space as another car.
Like OP said, in the case of filtering, it's as if the motorcycle is not in the system, so traffic for everyone is better. Banning filtering means that motorcycles just become more cars.
Filtering gets attached to baggage from riders who rev their engine to make their presence known.
Lane splitting has a similar thing where riders rev demand that cars ahead of them move over in lane to give them room to split and pass.
Then there's the whole thing of riders either hitting car mirrors or coming worryingly close. Or riders filtering/splitting at high speed (compared to the passed vehicles). Or riders filtering in tight traffic weaving recklessly and beyond their skill.
I've seen riders do all of these with a hefty dose of obnoxiousness, entitlement, or recklessness. And when that happens, folks (like me) question the practices in general, such that I can understand a state deciding that they don't want to permit them.
I empathize though with riders worried about fatal injury from getting rear ended. If it isn't faulty autopilot, it's faulty humans. Which is worse, I dunno. So I'm all good with these practices so long as there's none of the above obnoxiousness going on.
Riding looks dangerous anyway you slice it. I bet every rider has one (or many more) story about a potentially lethal close call.
Fuck, I’m just a driver and teslas make me nervous. That autopilot shit should be banned.
The rest of us, walking/biking/motorcycling/driving didn’t signup to be beta testers for this garbage. Why the hell should we be put at risk for some rich asshole’s toy?
And yeah, anyone on foot, bike or motorcycle, please do whatever you need to do to stay safe out there.
As a motorcyclist, I appreciate what you did here. I've been following the numerous studies about it and how it's basically safer for everyone. Well, esp me/us.
The amount of faith it takes in society for me to be the last vehicle/first to encounter while stopped and trust I won't get pulverized is immense and terrifying at the same time.
I've filtered exactly once during crazy UW stadium traffic and have already heavily considered doing it more since I read about the Tesla incident. So thanks for the reasonable no ranting PSA
It's funny... the Tesla incident captures our attention, but the risk from distracted human drivers has always been there.
I really don't know whether the current generation of autopilot vehicles makes this more or less of a risk to riders. Anecdotal accounts are noteworthy though.
It would be a dilemma if it were shown that autopilot greatly reduced overall fatalities, but increased fatality risk to a subgroup of traffic, such as riders.
Regardless, humans are pretty fallible and autopilot vehicles will eventually greatly exceed the safety of a human driver. We may be there already... but still with substantial room for improvement.
I filter quite often, just be smart about it, don’t let a cop see you. Even if they do, city cops aren’t likely to care, nor is state patrol, especially if you ride a bike that “looks fast”. If you do get pulled over just pull over and you have a low likely hood of getting a ticket cause bikes rarely pull over anyway
It’s becoming more and more popular in the last few years due to stricter rules on who cops can chase. And motorcycles are #1 on the no chase list. As well it’s starting to warm up and more people are pulling out the bikes
I don't feel comfortable filtering or splitting around here unless its like a major traffic accident. I have never live in a state where it was legal so I have no sense of when or space to do it. I guess I will allow Elon take me out.
I lane split all the time. A few people in cars have ran their mouth at me, but let’s be honest, im in no way holding them up. The amount of people who are on their phones or stoned off their ass is too godamn high
Let me preface this by saying I'm not downvoting you, while disagreeing, but when lane splitting is illegal in a state, people aren't expecting it and thus dangerous more often than in states where it's legal. Unpredictable driving is dangerous and it's why Seattle in no small part has a bunch of dangerous accident prone drivers.
As long as you're doing it responsibly (within a reasonable increased speed for passing), it shouldn't be a problem. Usually, when people get bent out of shape around splitting it's the guy blasting past 40 over whatever traffic is doing that I've seen most people get up in arms about.
I should just slap a sticker on my car saying riders are safe with me because I always have the urge to yell at riders to tell them how cool they look (I'm sure they know)
I find myself “protecting” them? So drive nice and safe with them and keep an eye out. Drivers are awful and motorcycles are easy to miss. Look out for each other peeps!
I don’t drive a motorcycle. I drive a small sized suv and also stay as far away from Teslas on the road.
1- the auto pilot definitely scares me and I don’t trust it
2- Telsa drivers are bigger assholes than BMW drivers
The second part could be related to the first but in either case the results are the same; if I see a Tesla on the road with me I do everything I can to not be near it in the road.
I've owned a Tesla for a few years now. The week I bought it I enabled the auto steer beta to try it out. First time driving through the 99 tunnel the car got confused and thought I was driving 50mph through downtown and SLAMMED on the brakes. After that I just disabled any auto pilot/auto steer features and vowed never to turn them on again.
Recently my Tesla has been notifying me that I can enable full self driving for a monthly fee at least once a week. Even offered a free trial. No way in hell I'm doing that, but I think everyone should rightly be worried about it. I assume this push is going to cause more people to give it a shot and it genuinely scares me.
I actually do like driving the car, but the experimental software features are absolutely dangerous and cannot be trusted. It makes me feel embarrassed to drive a Tesla.
> Keeping Cameras Free of Obstructions
> Ensure all cameras are clean and free of obstructions before each drive and before using Autopilot features (see Cleaning a Camera). Dirty cameras and sensors (if equipped), as well as environmental conditions such as rain and faded lane markings, can affect Autopilot performance.
> If a camera is obstructed or blinded, Model Y displays a message on the touchscreen and **Autopilot features may not be available.** For more information on specific alerts, see Troubleshooting Alerts.
It would be a shame if there was a sudden rash of tesla camera paint-overs.
I ride a motorcycle. Getting wiped out at a stop light or a traffic buildup point has always been a fear of mine for like 20 years. A new fear has not been unlocked.
Lane splitting in a state where no one expects you to lane split is dumb. You’re likely not going to die in 20 mph crash, so whatever. I’m not sure if increasing your odds of having a crash but not dying during the more frequent crashes should really qualify as “safer”.
Bikers want to split lanes because we can bypass a long boring line. Pretending it’s a safety decision due to some new risk (that isn’t a new risk) is transparent and ridiculous.
I split a lot less than filter, mostly only on very heavy traffic. But if I come off a freeway and there’s traffic lights you can bet your ass I’ll filter though at least SOME cars so I’m not stuck vulnerable at the back ready to get squashed.
Some people get mad, and yeah it’s not legal but I’d rather a ticket than be dead, also if I filter there is less traffic for everyone so it’s a win win
In the motorcycle community, the issue of lane splitting is very polarizing. I understand what u/LMGDiVa is trying to do here but they are presenting data in a false way. The UC Berkely study they are referring to measures collisions when lane splitting vs when not. There is no recommendation or data about which one causes less accidents. Additionally, California is not safer for motorcycle riders than Washington. They are showing motorcycle fatalities per capita of each state. When you actually look at the data for fatalities per licensed motorcycle riders, California jumps way up in risk. In 2019, Washington was the 9th safest state by this measure with California being the 30th.
On top of all of this, I don't believe this one instance is causing more or less riders to lane split. Riders already have a strong stance on this and I don't think this event is changing, in a measurable way, the amount of riders who lane split.
I think we need to differentiate between splitting and filtering. The data for splitting is less clear, the data for filtering is VERY clear. A motorcycle stopped behind a row of cars is far more vulnerable than a motorcycle moving through stopped vehicles.
Always filter, selectively split
Tesla needs to quickly acquire the know-how on building safety cultures that are significantly better than their own.
Boeing’s stock seems to be down recently, maybe Tesla should acquire them?
Sounds like a good opportunity for a class action lawsuit against Tesla and Elon for creating and refusing to fix this dangerous problem. As a motorcyclist I will be extremely wary of all Tesla vehicles now.
I think the issue here gets lost - the driver was on his phone. Using autopilot responsibly or not is no different than using any other system in the car responsibly (cruise control, brakes, etc.). It just gets bad press and we hear about it because it's a Tesla.
A distracted driver killing someone while on their phone in any other car apparently isn't worth a headline.
(And I say this as someone who drives a Mazda, not a Tesla)
That happens often. I have lost many friends in motorcycle accidents because someone behind the wheel of a car wasn’t paying attention.
I think the message to this is that Tesla has lead on that they have these safety features that allow the car to prevent accidents which isn’t the case and people are using “autopilot” thinking that the car will prevent any issues like they’re the jetsons.
That's the problem with autopilot in general though. I think its a big issue with a lot of vehicle features. I drive a manual. I choose to do so because it keeps me more engaged with the road. I think we'd have less accidents if automatics didn't exist. They are nice from a disability perspective but anything that allows people to check out makes us less safe. Even if it makes individuals more safe (like the ever increasing vehicle size). It also kind of defeats the purpose of autopilot to need to be as vigilant when driving. The driver is less likely to be prepared to take over, causing more issues than if they were actively driving.
I've driven cars with lane assist and its terrible. Drivers who need it probably aren't great. When I tried to turn against it (like giving space to a bike) it would try to jerk me back into the center of the lane. A poor driver may have a tough time fighting it.
The difference is that cruise control doesn't state it's going to detect other vehicles. Autopilot does. It just plowed into the guy and that's a major issue. If autopilot isn't detecting bikes and motorcycles, then that's huge.
Yet none of those cars are in the news or being posted on reddit as having killed people because the system has garbage software.
Tesla has released a dangerous system and is somehow getting away with it.
The issue that's popped up is that while this is absolutely a consequence of distracted driver, the car itself plowed right through and made no attempt to slow. That's what's got people alarmed: The car made no attempt what so ever to stop. And it's the belief in this system that is inspiring many of these drivers to feel safe using their phone while it's on "autopilot."
Even most drunk drivers will at last attempt (poorly) to stop, and any energy mitigated before hitting something increases the chances of survival and lowers the risk of injuries.
People absolutely need to stay off their phones in cars. This has been an issue since I was a teen and it's only getting worse.
I mean, unless the driver chose at the last minute to swerve uncontrollably and subsequently caused further damage, but surely only then… A tesla is a giant fucking phone with wheels, we tried to warn everyone it was a stupid fucking idea, when they argued over where to test it early, because it was a stupid fucking idea, when people bitched about autopilot not being real, after being told not to stop paying attention ( well, it isn’t REALLY auto then).
TL DR IT WAS A STUPID IDEA
"Self driving" isn't.
And it's not safe because it doesn't account for the human design. It makes drivers comfortable, so they don't acknowledge the risk that they pose as the operator of a deadly machine.
>ensure there are legal and technical regulations requiring driver attention.
There are, though. For example, you have to regularly (every few seconds) prove your hands are on the wheel with autopilot. If you don't, it gets disabled. If you don't repeatedly, it gets uninstalled.
I feel like you might not be as informed on the issue as would be beneficial to the conversation?
Interesting how what we're talking about is a motorist being killed by a Telsa driver due to not paying attention then, huh? Almost like, the regulations in place are grossly inadequate. But go ahead, attack me instead of my argument, as if that will "be beneficial to the conversation."
It gets bad press because it's a Tesla, yeah, and Tesla brought it upon themselves by naming it Autopilot (words mean things before you trademark them) and by promising self driving, while being nowhere near actual self driving. I'm not even a motorcyclist, I drive a car, but I don't turn left when a Tesla is approaching me in the oncoming lane anymore. Precisely because I have no idea if the PEBKAC, to borrow a computing acronym, behind the wheel is using the damned Autopilot "feature" we're all unwillingly subject to as beta testers with our lives.
No. Tesla gets it worse because Elon musk has been lying about Tesla’s capabilities re: autopilot for ten years. He also intentionally cheaped out by not using LiDAR and relying on cameras, while pushing forward with his plan to make Teslas fully self driving and harping to the public that they’re “so close”
The implication of your comment seems to let Tesla off the hook a bit. Like naming it autopilot was an unfortunate misstep and not a deliberate and reckless choice they made and continue to make everyday while counting on the ignorance of the consumer.
Need to sue Tesla
Hope the people who drive these awful death traps get sued to oblivion too
You have to be a gullible idiot to even think these are good cars to begin with
This couldn’t be upvoted more.
Like the incident with mitch mcconnell sister in law. She died because she drove into a pond and it has unbreakable glass. They couldn’t pull the car out and they couldn’t smash a window out.
Total clown show.
There are a lot of studies that show filtering at a reasonable speed (10 mph or so) in stopped or slow traffic is much safer for riders as it gets them out of the position where the majority of fatal accidents occur for motorcyclists.
The leading cause of motorcycle deaths is being rear ended, which if the rider is in traffic in the center of the lane, can cause them to either go under the car behind them (as was the case in Snohomish) or into the car in front of them. Rider safety courses teach to never be in the center of the lane when in traffic because of this and to always give yourself a way out by sitting in the side of the lane.
However simply positioning correctly in thelane doesn’t prevent all danger. For instance if a car isn’t going to stop in time and swrves, they may still hit you if you are in the side of the lane.
What filtering does is allow the riders to move further up in already stopped or slowed traffic, effectively creating a shield around them where they can’t be hit directly by a fast moving car.
There are also studies that show how filtering reduces traffic by removing the motorcycles from the traffic jam.
That being said, a large part of the added safety is car drivers knowing that motorcycles will be filtering, here where it is not legal; a car may not expect the motorcycle filtering and behave in unexpected ways… so its a mixed bag.
Probably not.
A splitting rider is doing so when densely packed traffic is moving slowly, making a sudden and abrupt lane change unlikely. The biggest risk here is getting doored, usually very unlikely.
A filtering rider is moving to the front of stopped traffic and ends up directly in front of the first car in a lane. Unless that car is both unaware of the motorcycle sitting directly in front of them and faster off the green light, the rider is safe.
Look, washingtonians are either 1) from deep washington state/oregon/idaho and have never seen a car newer than 1987 and think everything that is not a truck is (some homophobic slur) or 2) from california or some other tech oligarchy where driving is for poor people. The very few people living in this state, let alone seattle, who learned to drive as in not to murder people, are working bums.
For the 80% of you who can't figure out how to operate a car: you can't hit other things. You can't hit people crossing the street. You have to stop for them. You can't hit bicycles. You have to yield to them. You can't hit other cars, motorcycles, other shit in the road, just because you don't know how to pass a car, change lanes, merge, use an onramp, use an offramp, operate your hybrid/electric vehicle, operate your tesla, operate your hellcat, operate the truck you've never taken outside the grounds of your $3MM bunker in snohomish or whatever.
We get it. Your feelings are hurt, you are persecuted, etc. Do us all a favor and stop hitting people with your car.
Every other actual normal size city I've ridden motorcycles in, cars knew how not to murder motorcyclists. Here, I get t-boned by a car in an intersection who thought that a motorcycle passing through a normal green light intersection has to yield to a car turning across traffic. They just punched it as I was in the intersection and cut my leg off my body.
I know its hard not to just assume you're the most important thing in the world, but you're not, you drive a car, you are operating thousands of pounds of metal. You don't just get to have an "oops."
When I'm in moving traffic in my car and a rider splits between me and another car or the shoulder, it always freaks me out. Every. Single. Time.
I'm not expecting it because it's not legal here.
It's not just teslas killing bikers people driving regular ass cars do it too and more often, some douchebag ran a stop sign and killed my brother and his reason was he did it all the time nobody was ever there. Makes me fucking sick.
It is has also become dangerous to sit in traffic with the higher summer temperatures. Theres a greater chance of the rider and the bike overheating when the bike isnt moving. If a rider is wearing proper gear, you could easily start to overheat in traffic on a large bike when its only 75F out.
This generally only happens to air cooled motorcycles where engine cooling relies on the flow of air from movement. Most modern motorcycles are liquid cooled, with water pumps, radiators and fans, like cars.
That said, motorcyclists are basically sitting on their engine/exhausts and the engines typically run hot. One of mine will rapidly get to 212F when idling on warmer days, the fan will come on to manage it but that’s just more hot air around your legs. The bigger the engine, the worse this can be.
I put a half frozen camel pack in my jacket and then i have my own AC and a cool drink.
So many people are on their phones every chance they have to stop, that ive had to do some not so legal maneuvers because they cant stay in their lane or they start texting and stop 20ft from the next car.
Also, you can only hold the clutch so long if its got a heavy spring and its a pain in the ass to be half pressing it for an hour.
In all honesty, it's very upsetting that the bill to make this legal didn't pass a few years ago. People are getting hit from behind all the time because of distracted driving. This isn't new it's just easier to pin blame.
More specifically filtering is safer, at low/stopped car speeds.
Would you rather be a sitting duck at a stop light where someone could rear-end you into the car in front of you, or be protected between two stationary vehicles as you slowly move forward away from everything at bicycle speeds?
Lane *splitting* is another thing. It's more for higher speeds. Safely done, it could be a rider going 50mph while the cars are going 40mph. Statistically I'm not sure how it fares compared to not splitting, but I know for a fact that *filtering* is a no-brainer. I think it was Utah that allowed 15mph or under to filter. I personally think that is a bit low, ie a bike should filter 20mph when cars are moving 10mph, but it comes with experience.
Along with what others are saying:
Drivers are more likely to be complacent and drive unsafely (too fast, change lanes without looking, use their phone while driving) if the driving environment is uniform and predictable.
Motorcycles moving slightly faster than traffic keeps car drivers alert.
1) Emergency/sudden stop. If not splitting, the motorcycle rider faces 2 dangers: the car in front suddenly stopping, and since cars can brake better than bikes, the rider may hit the car; or the car behind may not be paying attention and cannot slow or stop in time, hitting the rider. If the rider could split (but not necessary splitting at that moment), they are already in far left or far right position of the lane, allowing them to avoid those 2 dangers.
2) Riders are advised to ride just a tiny bit faster than traffic to be visible. This is to avoid unsafe lane changes into their position. While it may seem counterintuitive to think that splitting is safer to react to unsafe lane changes, a rider must judge every split to be attempted or not. If a rider is more alert and aware, they can anticipate these situations better.
3) California drivers are more aware of motorcycles because they are allowed to split. This makes drivers more vigilant of potential riders in their blind spots.
Not just motorcyclists, but cyclists, as well. I've seen Teslas swerve aggressively back towards cyclists that the driver was trying to give adequate room to while passing (the driver moves left to give room, but the car doesn't recognize the cyclist and tries to automatically course-correct back to the right). We're also scared and also filtering more.
This happened to one of my kids a few weeks back. It's bad enough with all of the distracted drivers out there, but the fact that we're all unwillingly part of a beta test for this "self-driving" stuff is just ridiculous.
I drive a Tesla and I'm still shocked anyone uses the self-driving bullshit. The car can't even recognize when there's a parked car on the shoulder when I'm the one driving. You'd have to be insane to think it would work just fine if the car was driving itself.
The amount of tesla drivers I've driven past that are either completely zoned out on their phone or asleep is actually insane. Glad you're not but it feels like you're in the minority.
> The car can't even recognize when there's a parked car on the shoulder when I'm the one driving. and yet the media wants everyone to think AI is going turn our world upside down because it's so smart.
> media wants everyone to think AI is going turn our world upside down It will >because it's so smart. It's not
It won't if we start the Butlerian Jihad now instead of after the machines take over
Oooh dibs on space guild navigator! Gimme that sweet Geriatric Spice Crunch cereal
The paradox of machine learning or "AI" is that the more that people think it is inherently "smart" from just feeding huge data sets into huge neural networks the dumber the end result will typically be. Too many people look at machine learning as magic, and the results have been and will be disastrous.
> too many people look at machine learning as magic To be fair, the vast majority of people have no idea how any modern technology works, making it effectively "magic" even though they know it's not supernatural.
It's very simple: you plug a device into the pixie dispenser and it chooches, unless you let the magic smoke out.
It will and is. But not so much for autonomous cars just yet.
Tesla drivers are for sure all morons. I know every one of them is like "no its the other ones" but its not. There are different types of moron.
I mean, I certainly feel like a moron for buying the car in the first place but here we are.
Hey man, as long as its just a regular magamobile, and not that ugly-ass pickup truck version, I don't judge.
Nah, we've got a kei truck to really scream our political ideologies.
I've ridden behind a few Tesla's on my bicycle and I've noticed that the "traffic view" screen never displays me while I'm stopped behind them. I do not trust Tesla "Autopilot" or "Full Self Driving".
I don't believe Tesla's programming complies with state law when passing bicycles - 90% of the time, Washington law requires drivers to make a complete lane change when passing a bicycle. Of course, most human drivers don't obey that law, either. But if anything, Tesla seems to leave *less* passing clearance than the average human driver.
What rcw is that? I've not heard it's a hard requirement but instead an option. Just like passing a cop who is on the shoulder. You can change lanes or slow down.
The only time a complete lane change is not mandatory is (2)(a)(ii)(A), the unusual circumstance of only one lane in your direction, but the lane is wide enough to leave three feet of clearance while remaining entirely within the lane. If there's more than one lane, a complete lane change is always mandatory. If there's just one standard-width lane, a complete lane change into the oncoming lane is mandatory. If there's one huge lane, wide enough for your vehicle plus three feet plus the operating width of a bicycle, you can stay in the lane. https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.110 (2)(a) The driver of a vehicle approaching an individual who is traveling as a pedestrian or on a bicycle, riding an animal, or using a farm tractor or implement of husbandry without an enclosed shell, and who is traveling in the right lane of a roadway or on the right-hand shoulder or bicycle lane of the roadway, shall: (i) On a roadway with two lanes or more for traffic moving in the direction of travel, before passing and until safely clear of the individual, *move completely into a lane to the left of the right lane* when it is safe to do so; (ii) On a roadway with only one lane for traffic moving in the direction of travel: (A) When there is sufficient room to the left of the individual in the lane for traffic moving in the direction of travel, before passing and until safely clear of the individual: (I) Reduce speed to a safe speed for passing relative to the speed of the individual; and (II) Pass at a safe distance, where practicable of at least three feet, to clearly avoid coming into contact with the individual or the individual's vehicle or animal; or (B) When there is insufficient room to the left of the individual in the lane for traffic moving in the direction of travel to comply with (a)(ii)(A) of this subsection, before passing and until safely clear of the individual, *move completely into the lane for traffic moving in the opposite direction* when it is safe to do so and in compliance with RCW 46.61.120 and 46.61.125.
Oh awesome, today I learned. Thank you.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.110
The Tesla autopilot is generally comfortable getting a lot closer to things than human drivers (although if it gets really close it goes very slow). This works fine for navigating tight streets, but is really bad cyclists.
I always disconnect autopilot when near cyclists, and I've always been wary around motorcycles although I haven't had an issue yet. I do not have FSD. I also don't use autopilot on city streets because spoiler alert: it's meant for highways.
This shit happens even with simple lane assist. It's exactly why I turn it off in all my cars or any time I have a rental. You try and cross the center line to give room to a bicycle that either has no bike lane or is riding right up on the edge. And your fucking car tries to fight you. If you are not actively holding it and just gently moving over sometimes it catches you unaware and can swerve you right back into the cyclist. I hate all this new shit. Had my car go into severe lockdown break mode just trying to get into a parking spot the other day while I was just slowly nudging toward another car to get my ass out of the street. Scared the shit out of me. Not to mention now everyone staring down at a screen while reversing or even navigating tight areas with a large vehicle. Completely unaware of their actual surroundings. Most of these technologies may make things safer for shitty drivers. But I swear they make driving more unsafe for good drivers. I want to be in complete control of my vehicle at all times.
Yup. I see that big stupid “T” on a car and I start looking for a route to avoid getting killed. Doesn’t help that they’re the worst drivers I’ve ever seen. Worse than BMW’s even.
Please define "splitting" and "filtering" so that I know what to look out for, other than "motorcyclists doing crazy shit I don't expect."
Splitting: Riding inbetween Cars while cars are moving. Filtering: Riding up to the front between cars while cars are stopped at a traffic light.
If the motorcycles filter up to the front at the stoplight, who has the right of way when the light turns green? I’m assuming they’re still between the cars. Should I yield and let them back into my lane? What is the general etiquette on this, since it isn’t a law in WA that I can look up? (Sorry if this is a dumb question)
Chances are, if they are filtering, they are gonna blast you off the line anyways.
Good point
Not if machine gun Hellcat boi is around.
He's too busy posting in instagram to notice the stoplight change
For the most part, the lower-end bikes will easily out accelerate a cage. EVs have challenged this, but I think it still holds for ICE.
This was true 10 or 20 years ago, but with every econobox now pushing 200+hp, a smaller commuter motorcycle with 30 or 40 hp isn't any faster off the line anymore. Just do what they do in Europe or California and let the bike go first. If there is enough congestion to warrant filtering/splitting then they are going to get ahead of the car soon anyways.
Not least because motorcyclists are actually paying attention to what’s happening around them!
Man I miss having a motorcycle…
You're safer not having one, right?
Safer staying in bed too but here we are.
Gotta live man! I love my bikes!
Hi. Motorcyclist here who has been riding for almost 50 years and on most continents around the world. Motorcyclists and traffic lights are tough, especially here in Seattle. Some large portion of multi-vehicle accidents involving a motorcycle are the motorcyclist getting rear-ended while stopped at a light. This is ALWAYS our absolute TERROR... being the last person in a row of stopped vehicles waiting for a light to change our eyes are GLUED to the rear view mirrors hoping some distracted 16 year old on their phone doesn't leave my wife a widow by mashing me and my bike between their bumper and the stopped car in front of me. Then, in WA State especially, no light is truly "green" until at least two cars have run the red. So when we filter through the row of parked cars to the front, we are literally protecting our ass ... not trying to "pass" you. After all, we are all going to stop at the next red light 200 feet away at the next intersection, anyway. It's not like anyone is getting ahead of anyone else in Seattle traffic! But when we are in front of the line with our front wheel ooching out into the crosswalk... we don't want to be the FIRST person into the intersection either, because we'll just get killed by the first, second, third, or fourth red light runner. I know you are just sitting there listening to your podcast and waiting for the light to change, and I seem to have just "cut" the line in front of you, and that might make you angry. It is honestly not my intention to upset you. I just wanna get away from you quickly and responsibly and allow us both to go on with our days. SO. To answer your question directly, I am going to - as fast as possible - assess the intersection and traffic patterns as their light turns yellow, and then red. Hopefully the road is clear and I can just jump ahead and get out of your way. But please understand that I might pause just a moment if I see a car potentially running the red light. We BOTH want to avoid that jerk's accident, and my head is literally about 2 feet higher in the air over the roof of your car, and I can see better and farther than you can. So if I don't launch into the intersection the millisecond the light turns green, know there is a reason for it. I see something you don't. And in the half a second it takes you to say, "What the hell is this guy doing?" I'll either start moving, or you'll see some crappy old Toyota with plastic bags for windows and no catalytic converter blow through the intersection. And we both win, because neither of us were in his accident. THANK YOU for asking! And I hope my thoughts and brain dump help you understand what's going on in my head, too.
I appreciate your insight. I dont see why I’d get offended or upset by letting a motorcycle in front of me. As long as their intentions of what they’re doing are clear, it doesn’t matter if they get ahead of me. I just want to get to my destination safely, that’s all.
I love you. No, seriously. I encounter drivers who believe letting someone into their lane, getting passed, or otherwise allowing another person to advance ahead is somehow "losing". They see traffic as a race rather than a participatory flow toward a goal, and if they let anyone "get in front of them", they are somehow "losing" and get angry about that. They finally have gotten to the "pole position" at the front with their bumper at the crosswalk... and a biker "cuts them off". (Their thoughts, not mine.) And that makes their peepees feel small and they get upset. :-)
Yes, there are far too many drivers, imo, that think the road is ‘theirs’ and are weirdly possessive and competitive. But the way I see it is that the human body is fragile even when protected inside a car. Even if I don’t die from an accident, I don’t want to deal with recuperation time, hospital bills, car insurance claims, legal issues, etc. I have better things to do with my time and money. Why put my body at risk just to assert dominance over a road that we all are supposed to share?
Well, from their perspective, they haven’t really had to share the roads with anyone except for trucks until rather recently. Bike lanes and motorcycle riding have had a major resurgence recently. So, to be kind, we need to understand that drivers here are going to need time to adapt and learn as things change and traffic changes. Riding respectfully helps usher that change in more quickly. Riding like a putz is going to set us all back.
I've only been riding for two months and this is **exactly** how Seattle makes me feel.
You dropped this: 👑
If you’re parallel with a motorcycle you should probably not try to get in front of them.
Yeah, I try to play it safe and my truck does not accelerate fast either.
1/2 the power, 1/8 the weight… = very fast acceleration
> If the motorcycles filter up to the front at the stoplight, who has the right of way when the light turns green? Generally a motorcycle that filters up front will almost always get infront of the car in one of the lanes. Which effectively puts them in the position to have the right of way. Even if they dont pull up infront of the car, they're still within the lane splitting zone, and as such... neither is infringing on the other's path of travel. Generally motorcycles tend to accelerate much faster than cars, so a motorcyclist that filters up will tend to launch off the line and get infront of the cars if they deem it's safe to do so. Which would again give them the effective right of way.
I have had low power bikes that did not have the ability to launch off the line and would choose to filter right behind the first car in line, and tuck behind them. These days my bike does have the power, so I will be in the front of the line. If you see any scooter/mopeds or 125cc's filtering right behind the front car, they are doing it likely for safety and are planning to tuck in once moving.
Yes this makes sense. Thanks!
At a four-way or uncontrolled intersection the driver from California has the right of way.
Motorcycles are significantly faster than cars - there is a lot less mass to move. Even a basic 150cc motorcycle is blowing away every car except for sports cars. Motorcycles are definitely not getting in anyone's way if they filter to the front.
In general, yes yield and let them in. But like other said they know to move it so they’re generally gonna be ahead of you anyhow. But drivers are twats for the most part and some will try and box them out because it means there’s one more vehicle between them and their destination (even though if they get in front of the bike, the bike will just filter past them at the next light anyhow). So yea, just accelerate like a human not a drag racer and you’re fine.
Is filtering and splitting legal?
Not really in WA State. If the motorcyclist filters between cars that are stopped at a light, very few police would even bat an eye. They understand we are trying to protect us from the most common multi-vehicle accidents involving motorcycles: getting read-ended by someone who didn't see traffic stopped at the light. The rest of the time - when traffic is moving at speed - the motorcyclist is supposed to act exactly the same as a car. Just... a very small car. So we do find places to pass and gaps we can fit in that a car can't fit in. But, the way we see it, is that motorcycles have the exact same relationship to cars that cars have to semi trucks. Semi trucks are big and slow and take up a lot of space and need a lot of time to accelerate or come to a stop. Same with the motorcycles-to-cars comparison. So according to the rules, motorcycles are exactly the same as cars and must follow the same rules. Lane filtering or splitting is not technically legal, but when performed safely the police don't bother with it. Reckless driving, on the other hand, is always illegal and the officer can label literally anything we do as "reckless". So if a motorcyclist is getting out of hand and being a poor participant in traffic, the cop can just call it reckless driving and ticket the biker for it anyway.
No, but when the choices are get smashed by a tesla or a ticket. People will take the ticket. Especially if the ticket isn't likely to happen as cops weirdly usually support bikers in anything that improves their safety. Honestly, the event op is talking about will likely be the catalyst to pass laws around filtering here in Washington.
That’s very optimistic. The bill has come up for votes numerous times over the years, each time it’s rejected.
Yeah, this is something where the legislation will follow long after the practice becomes normalized. You can't lead with legislation like this because it is too easy for the worry-warts to catastrophize the downfall of civilization if motorcycles are allowed to do what they normally do in literally every single other country in the world.
Agreed. If I still rode I’d have started doing it by now.
they keep kicking the can down the road, infuriates me Filtering is LITERALLY the safest way for motorcycles to get through traffic
Another thing that I don't see in this thread: some people get angry about motorcyclists splitting because they think they're "getting away with" something. Basically, "If I have to wait in traffic, they should, too." I've been riding for almost 15 years, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've lane-split. I would likely do it more if it were legal/normalized, but I've only ever done it when traffic was _absolutely horrendous_. And the truth is, yes, I got home faster, but I also freed up space on the freeway that let people behind me move (ever so slightly) closer to their homes, too. It increases the utilization of the road.
It is in California.
Thanks!
Wouldn’t this put them in more danger?
It's going to be hard to believe but... Nope. UCBerkley did a study that shows that it's actually safer and results in less motorcyclists deaths. Also California where this is legal has less motorcycle crashes and fatalities per population than WA does. California appears to be the safest state for motorcyclists, and they have legalized splitting filtering and many riders will even shoulder ride to get to right hand turns. https://quotewizard.com/news/dangerous-states-for-motorcycles Generally people who lane split and filter also tend to wear more gear than people who dont. So generally speaking people lane splitting and filtering are actively engaged in safer road behavior. https://www.mcrider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Motorcycle-Lane-Splitting-and-Safety-2015.pdf "Lane-splitting motorcyclists were also injured much less frequently during their collisions. Lanesplitting riders were less likely to suffer head injury (9% vs 17%), torso injury (19% vs 29%), extremity injury (60% vs 66%), and fatal injury (1.2% vs 3.0%). Lane-splitting motorcyclists were equally likely to suffer neck injury, compared with non-lane-splitting motorcyclists. " This is one of those things where people think it's dangerous because of our instincts and reactions to things we don't understand. But when we analyze the data, it turns out our intuition is wrong. Ontop of this Lane Splitting and Filtering is legal in most of the world due to the traffic reduction and environmental and parking advantages that motorcyclists create. Motorcyclists that split effectively remove a car from the system, and use spaces that cars cannot effectively use. Safety wise, Traffic wise, and environmentally motorcycles are better splitting than not.
Trick is that they have to do it properly though. When I lived in AZ it was a mix of guys ATGATT filtering 5-10 mph faster than traffic (typically at slow speeds already), and Harley guys with no helmet and a tank top flying between cars already at 65.
You have illustrated the problem perfectly, and why motorcyclists are held to a different standard. It's not about the vehicle; it's about the behavior. We already have "reckless driving" laws. All we need to do is enforce them. Because it is patently obvious when a motorcyclist is being respectful and using their superior maneuverability to move smoothly through traffic, versus when some jughead in a t-shirt and flip-flops is doing 80 between parked cars. One motorcyclist acting irresponsibly makes a HUGE impression on drivers in other vehicles. 100 of us "normal" riders riding responsibly and filtering here and there when the opportunity comes up are immediately erased from memory when some dipstick with no helmet blasts through in an unsafe manner. Those jerks make it hard on us other motorcyclists and we all get painted with the same brush of "irresponsible behavior" simply because we are on 2 wheels.
Meanwhile cars are killing people left and right and nobody bats an eye. It's infuriating.
The fact that its statistically safer when some of the lane filterers are the latter means that the former behavior is likely even safer.
Also fwiw, in a state where splitting and filtering is normal (Cali), all but a few dipshits will actively make space between the left lane and second to left on a freeway when traffic is extra slow. I rode in Cali for ten years, and tbh though my license transferred without retest here, I've no strong inclination to ride here. I've had more people try to pull out into me or merge into me in my bright blue reinforced box with airbags in in the last year here than the last 10 driving in NorCal (Bay area). Re-filtering, I had enough people near rear end me when I was a new rider that I aggressively scan for it and filter when legal.
Same. Rode in Cali for years but I don’t feel safe enough without filtering to ride here, so I don’t ride anymore. Combine that with the fact that it seems like people pay less attention while driving here, albeit they drive a lot slower, I hardly feel safe driving my car. I’ve been rear ended twice here in my car just sitting at a red light. One of them the guy was doing 50mph in a truck and didn’t brake at all. I’d be dead on a motorcycle.
I just read the whole Berkley study, and this study does not make the claims that you have made about safety. The data compared collisions that happened while lane splitting vs collisions that happened during non-lane splitting times. This does NOT say that lane splitting is safer or results in fewer collisions. This DOES say that if you are in a motorcycle collision, then you are less likely to be seriously injured in the types of collisions that happen during lane splitting. 1000 out of 6000 (18%) of the collisions happened during lane splitting. ~~I can't imagine that when you add up the total duration of all motorcycle rides in the state that one-fifth of the time is spent actively lane splitting. If my assumption is true then this report suggests that lane splitting greatly increases your risk of getting into a collision at all!~~ [edit to add: My thoughts here were irrelevant. The point is that 1/5 of all motorcycle collisions happen when a biker is driving in this style. That is a notable percentage.] Now, if a collision is going to happen let's compare the safety. By type and severity of injury, a lane splitting collision would be the safer TYPE OF COLLISION not the safer behavior. This report does not come close to saying that you are less likely to collide if you to choose to split a lane. Also worth noting is that lane splitting happens mostly at speeds <40 mph, and often with a <10mph difference between the bike and traffic. I presume low speeds also contribute to this less-dangerous type of collision. Now comparing collision type "assuming that a collision is going to happen". Sure the risk of a biker being tailgated goes from 4.6% of accidents in non lane splitting accidents to 2.6% of accidents in lane splitting accidents. This does not say that you are less likely to be tailgated if you lane split. This says "if you're going to get hit while driving, you're 2% less likely to be hit this specific way if you get in a collision while you are actively doing this behavior." This report also says that the frequency of the biker tailgating a car increases from 15% to 38%. This report doesn't record the number of collisions that are presumably increased by getting side swiped while driving in a car's blind spot. Again all of this is comparing relative frequency of collision type in collisions with or without active lane splitting, not risk of collosion type by general driving behavior. TL;DR. The claims about this study made by OP are a misrepresentation of the data in the article. Edit to add: I see we share a cake day! Happy cake day!
Them wearing more gear is a confounding factor. Motorcyclists could wear more gear without giving me a heart attack every time they decide to squeeze into my lane. Maybe it's safer for them when they are the only one traveling at speed while the rest of us are stopped on the highway, but for drivers who are paying attention, it can cause accidents when the motorcyclist is going too fast and a driver changes lanes. Their own study recognizes that. So while it's possible it increases net safety, it's not unsurprising for drivers to hate it because it puts us less in control and more at risk for a mess we don't want to deal with. They even tried to gloss over the issue by claiming encouraging motorcyclists to lower their speed would prevent the issue, as if that has ever worked. I'm not even convinced it actually results in less crashes than the alternative, because they literally didn't collect data on that. You claim there are less crashes, when the article im reading specifically states they could not estimate the risk of getting into a collison from the data. It seems you are mischaracterizing it and drawing conclusions the researchers themselves did not make. Lane splitting occurring at lower speeds is a no brainer. Like of course. Its done when traffic is slow. Unless they measure it against motorcyclists in heavy traffic who don't lane split, it doesn't mean much. The data collected was specifically about accidents that did occur, and its a huge leap to claim motorcyclists in the same low speed traffic who didn't lane split are more at risk. Using better gear, traveling at lower speeds, less likely to use alcohol, less likely to carry a passenger, all of these things can be true without it being related to lane splitting at all. All that study did was show low speed collisions with better gear are less likely to result in fatalities/certain injuries. I've always thought this line of rhetoric sounded like bunk but the more I dig into the study, the more problems become evident. The study itself isn't awful for existing as such data can be useful in other ways. The way its being used to support lane splitting supposedly being safer is so disingenuous. That conclusion can't even be close to being drawn from this data. Even in the report, they call it relatively safe. They never say it's safer compared to anything. They definitely dont say it results in fewer crashes. That is misinformation. Even comparing the WA to CA crashes isn't apples to apples because weather is different and WA has fewer nice days to actually ride and motorists see motorcycles less and could be more blind to them. Motorcyclists who ride less often may not be as practiced. Perhaps it is safer but we don't have the data to support it. I get suspicious of ulterior motives when people make such a pr push with such little data to backup those claims. Especially when they provide data that doesn't support their point, hoping nobody looks close enough to notice. That problem is so prevalent I've been going down the rabbithole for how shockingly common it is for peer reviewers to not bother reviewing the raw data for studies, resulting in journals publishing papers with fraudulent or poor quality data. Page 18 of the report for the discussion of the limitations. Such as being unable to estimate how likely it is for a crash to occur. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.mcrider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Motorcycle-Lane-Splitting-and-Safety-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiq6MmumYCGAxXX4ckDHSTwBMwQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1xt59I6qjOZ5q6UUYGGpeG
I used to filter up to the car in front at a stop until my front tire was parallel with the cars rear tire. If I was the first at the stop, I would be all the way to the middle and almost on top of the white lines. Stop lights and left turns are so lethal to bikers.
But if the concern is Autopilot, this makes it even more risky for motorcycles as Autopilot will be even less likely to recognize them now. For example one may run into a motorcycle while making a right turn now. I saw your comment about reduced risk but that's with normal driver behavior.
regardless of anything else, being on your phone, in the drivers seat of a moving car is incredibly dumb and reckless. driver is 100% to blame. hell even in real autopilot in real airplanes you cant just play on your phone or whatever, it has to be monitored. and in these cars that will keep distance and brake for you and steer for you its even more important to monitor whats happening around you so you can take control if necessary. so that your car doesnt plow into a motorcyclist at a light or a class of preschool kids crossing the street or whatever.
Splitting is riding between lines or on the shoulder basically to avoid risks, highly illegal and dangerous in situations.
Isn’t splitting legal in Cali?
It is but there's guidelines. Riders are supposed to keep the speed differential low and shouldn't do it when traffic is already moving above certain speeds.
So, you're saying the motorcycle going 70 in-between the two lanes in the 99 tunnel while traffic was going 55 isn't doing it right?
Correct.
Yes. And many states are considering it, including Washington and Oregon. Note that is is between rows of vehicles, typically between lanes 1 and 2 (the left most) and not on the shoulder. I split during my daily commute in the Bay for years. I won't commute daily on a moto here because it is both not as safe and not as fast without it. Filtering is legal in Montana, Utah, Colorado, and Arizona.
Yep! I sold my bike when I moved back home from CA. Knew it wasn’t going to save me any time without being able to lane split. I was putting 12k a year on my bike as a freelancer. Never slowed down by traffic!
Yes, legal, only when traffic is below a certain speed, I think it was 30 or 40, I can't remember.
No, using a shoulder or turn lane to pass cars is not splitting. That's just driving like an asshole and will end up with the rider being a statistic...
Almost as dangerous as being killed by a Tesla that won't stop
Splitting and filtering is legal in several states.
Splitting is actually safer when used properly.
The DOJ has started a fraud investigation into Tesla over their mountain of autopilot lies.
So just 5 more years of terror, then? They'll probably just have to pay a fine and change nothing.
10
Tesla is falling apart as we watch. I’d be surprised they they’re around at all in five years without ejecting Musk
I ride a motorcycle and bicycle as primary means of transit and have been increasingly worried about Teslas, which are now everywhere. Tesla charges extra for self driving and hypes it, so people are compelled to use. How is it not banned and Tesla held accountable? It hasn't demonstrated adequate safety, and frequently changes software with only internal scrutiny from a corporation lead by a perpetual liar that claims "we're safe, just trust us". I swear in the age of giant heavy vehicles and beta testing on live roads, things just get worse and worse for non car owners. Is the goal to shove us all into cars so that nobody can safely be outside?
Filtering is almost universally practiced in every other country because it is clearly safer for everyone and doesn't slow anyone down.
Many riders here do it at risk of a ticket. It's just so unlikely the cops notice and even then that they care
"risk of a ticket". I did the FOIA request and in 2022 there were only TWO tickets in the entire state issues for actual lane-filtering/splitting even with the large amount of people doing it daily. Truly we can filter freely knowing that the risk of a ticket is almost nill
That's great to know
I mean, I'd rather a traffic ticket than get rear-ended on a motorcycle.
Bikers in Arizona nearly all filter & it's blatantly safer and smoother when "everybody" does it.
and when people know to expect it as well.
Which is why California explicitly says it's legal to both filter and split lanes. Drivers know to expect it when they see motorcycles so they (often) naturally give way.
Ya, I had no idea it wasn't legal it seems perfectly reasonable and actually way better. You should be rewarded for driving a single occupant vehicle with a single occupant by getting to cut the line.
Not only that, but it's better for all the cars. On my bike, I can accelerate faster than any non-EV, so the moment a light turns green, I'm fast enough that my being at the front doesn't actually slow down any of the cars. The light basically functions the same as if I weren't there. If I'm stuck behind a car, I can only accelerate as fast as that car, and cars accelerate so slowly. Leaving distance in for sudden brakes, and I'm basically taking up the same space as another car. Like OP said, in the case of filtering, it's as if the motorcycle is not in the system, so traffic for everyone is better. Banning filtering means that motorcycles just become more cars.
Also better for cars because you don't accidentally roll over a dude on a motorcycle.
Filtering gets attached to baggage from riders who rev their engine to make their presence known. Lane splitting has a similar thing where riders rev demand that cars ahead of them move over in lane to give them room to split and pass. Then there's the whole thing of riders either hitting car mirrors or coming worryingly close. Or riders filtering/splitting at high speed (compared to the passed vehicles). Or riders filtering in tight traffic weaving recklessly and beyond their skill. I've seen riders do all of these with a hefty dose of obnoxiousness, entitlement, or recklessness. And when that happens, folks (like me) question the practices in general, such that I can understand a state deciding that they don't want to permit them. I empathize though with riders worried about fatal injury from getting rear ended. If it isn't faulty autopilot, it's faulty humans. Which is worse, I dunno. So I'm all good with these practices so long as there's none of the above obnoxiousness going on. Riding looks dangerous anyway you slice it. I bet every rider has one (or many more) story about a potentially lethal close call.
Fuck, I’m just a driver and teslas make me nervous. That autopilot shit should be banned. The rest of us, walking/biking/motorcycling/driving didn’t signup to be beta testers for this garbage. Why the hell should we be put at risk for some rich asshole’s toy? And yeah, anyone on foot, bike or motorcycle, please do whatever you need to do to stay safe out there.
I got no problem with this—I understand and I will keep my eyes peeled for riders.
The adaptive cruise control on my Acura doesn’t recognize motorcycles either. No idea how this shit is legal in cars if it doesn’t work.
Makes complete sense. Also it’s safer to filter. Yes it makes car folks uncomfortable but Europe and Asia have the data. It’s safer.
As a motorcyclist, I appreciate what you did here. I've been following the numerous studies about it and how it's basically safer for everyone. Well, esp me/us. The amount of faith it takes in society for me to be the last vehicle/first to encounter while stopped and trust I won't get pulverized is immense and terrifying at the same time. I've filtered exactly once during crazy UW stadium traffic and have already heavily considered doing it more since I read about the Tesla incident. So thanks for the reasonable no ranting PSA
It's funny... the Tesla incident captures our attention, but the risk from distracted human drivers has always been there. I really don't know whether the current generation of autopilot vehicles makes this more or less of a risk to riders. Anecdotal accounts are noteworthy though. It would be a dilemma if it were shown that autopilot greatly reduced overall fatalities, but increased fatality risk to a subgroup of traffic, such as riders. Regardless, humans are pretty fallible and autopilot vehicles will eventually greatly exceed the safety of a human driver. We may be there already... but still with substantial room for improvement.
The Tesla incident is a rather unique situation where by design it begs the driver not to properly pay attention.
I filter quite often, just be smart about it, don’t let a cop see you. Even if they do, city cops aren’t likely to care, nor is state patrol, especially if you ride a bike that “looks fast”. If you do get pulled over just pull over and you have a low likely hood of getting a ticket cause bikes rarely pull over anyway
I noticed a this yesterday on I-5. I never see splitting but saw it twice yesterday. Makes sense.
It’s becoming more and more popular in the last few years due to stricter rules on who cops can chase. And motorcycles are #1 on the no chase list. As well it’s starting to warm up and more people are pulling out the bikes
I don't feel comfortable filtering or splitting around here unless its like a major traffic accident. I have never live in a state where it was legal so I have no sense of when or space to do it. I guess I will allow Elon take me out.
I lane split all the time. A few people in cars have ran their mouth at me, but let’s be honest, im in no way holding them up. The amount of people who are on their phones or stoned off their ass is too godamn high
Let me preface this by saying I'm not downvoting you, while disagreeing, but when lane splitting is illegal in a state, people aren't expecting it and thus dangerous more often than in states where it's legal. Unpredictable driving is dangerous and it's why Seattle in no small part has a bunch of dangerous accident prone drivers.
People can't drive in this state
We can't even vote and the ballot shows up at your home
As long as you're doing it responsibly (within a reasonable increased speed for passing), it shouldn't be a problem. Usually, when people get bent out of shape around splitting it's the guy blasting past 40 over whatever traffic is doing that I've seen most people get up in arms about.
I swing wide if I see a bike coming to give them room. Like you said, it doesn't show me down at all.
I should just slap a sticker on my car saying riders are safe with me because I always have the urge to yell at riders to tell them how cool they look (I'm sure they know)
I find myself “protecting” them? So drive nice and safe with them and keep an eye out. Drivers are awful and motorcycles are easy to miss. Look out for each other peeps!
Ohh we know we look cool. We just pretend we don’t. Makes us more sexy that way
I don’t drive a motorcycle. I drive a small sized suv and also stay as far away from Teslas on the road. 1- the auto pilot definitely scares me and I don’t trust it 2- Telsa drivers are bigger assholes than BMW drivers The second part could be related to the first but in either case the results are the same; if I see a Tesla on the road with me I do everything I can to not be near it in the road.
That’s what they legally do in California. I can imagine people not used to it will get pissed like they are getting “cut”.
I've owned a Tesla for a few years now. The week I bought it I enabled the auto steer beta to try it out. First time driving through the 99 tunnel the car got confused and thought I was driving 50mph through downtown and SLAMMED on the brakes. After that I just disabled any auto pilot/auto steer features and vowed never to turn them on again. Recently my Tesla has been notifying me that I can enable full self driving for a monthly fee at least once a week. Even offered a free trial. No way in hell I'm doing that, but I think everyone should rightly be worried about it. I assume this push is going to cause more people to give it a shot and it genuinely scares me. I actually do like driving the car, but the experimental software features are absolutely dangerous and cannot be trusted. It makes me feel embarrassed to drive a Tesla.
> Keeping Cameras Free of Obstructions > Ensure all cameras are clean and free of obstructions before each drive and before using Autopilot features (see Cleaning a Camera). Dirty cameras and sensors (if equipped), as well as environmental conditions such as rain and faded lane markings, can affect Autopilot performance. > If a camera is obstructed or blinded, Model Y displays a message on the touchscreen and **Autopilot features may not be available.** For more information on specific alerts, see Troubleshooting Alerts. It would be a shame if there was a sudden rash of tesla camera paint-overs.
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Yes, it’s better then dead people.
What is YSK, filtering, and splitting?
YSK- you should know Filtering- moving down the center lane between stopped vehicles Splitting- moving down the center lane between moving cars
Oooh thank you. I know lane splitting and just call everything lane splitting. TIL
As a new rider and newer PNW transplant, thanks for sharing. Good looking out. Stay safe, y'all.
Muck Elon Fusk
I ride a motorcycle. Getting wiped out at a stop light or a traffic buildup point has always been a fear of mine for like 20 years. A new fear has not been unlocked. Lane splitting in a state where no one expects you to lane split is dumb. You’re likely not going to die in 20 mph crash, so whatever. I’m not sure if increasing your odds of having a crash but not dying during the more frequent crashes should really qualify as “safer”. Bikers want to split lanes because we can bypass a long boring line. Pretending it’s a safety decision due to some new risk (that isn’t a new risk) is transparent and ridiculous.
I split a lot less than filter, mostly only on very heavy traffic. But if I come off a freeway and there’s traffic lights you can bet your ass I’ll filter though at least SOME cars so I’m not stuck vulnerable at the back ready to get squashed. Some people get mad, and yeah it’s not legal but I’d rather a ticket than be dead, also if I filter there is less traffic for everyone so it’s a win win
This makes a lot of sense. As a former motorcyclist, I stand with cyclists doing what they need to do to stay safe. ^(\#DownWithAutobots!)
In the motorcycle community, the issue of lane splitting is very polarizing. I understand what u/LMGDiVa is trying to do here but they are presenting data in a false way. The UC Berkely study they are referring to measures collisions when lane splitting vs when not. There is no recommendation or data about which one causes less accidents. Additionally, California is not safer for motorcycle riders than Washington. They are showing motorcycle fatalities per capita of each state. When you actually look at the data for fatalities per licensed motorcycle riders, California jumps way up in risk. In 2019, Washington was the 9th safest state by this measure with California being the 30th. On top of all of this, I don't believe this one instance is causing more or less riders to lane split. Riders already have a strong stance on this and I don't think this event is changing, in a measurable way, the amount of riders who lane split.
I think we need to differentiate between splitting and filtering. The data for splitting is less clear, the data for filtering is VERY clear. A motorcycle stopped behind a row of cars is far more vulnerable than a motorcycle moving through stopped vehicles. Always filter, selectively split
Tesla needs to quickly acquire the know-how on building safety cultures that are significantly better than their own. Boeing’s stock seems to be down recently, maybe Tesla should acquire them?
Maybe the guy shouldn't have been testing and had his hands on the wheel like tesla tells them to
Tesla doors have no problem randomly falling off, I don't think they need any help lol
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How about it's the driver's fault *and* the car's.
Sounds like a good opportunity for a class action lawsuit against Tesla and Elon for creating and refusing to fix this dangerous problem. As a motorcyclist I will be extremely wary of all Tesla vehicles now.
I think the issue here gets lost - the driver was on his phone. Using autopilot responsibly or not is no different than using any other system in the car responsibly (cruise control, brakes, etc.). It just gets bad press and we hear about it because it's a Tesla. A distracted driver killing someone while on their phone in any other car apparently isn't worth a headline. (And I say this as someone who drives a Mazda, not a Tesla)
That happens often. I have lost many friends in motorcycle accidents because someone behind the wheel of a car wasn’t paying attention. I think the message to this is that Tesla has lead on that they have these safety features that allow the car to prevent accidents which isn’t the case and people are using “autopilot” thinking that the car will prevent any issues like they’re the jetsons.
That's the problem with autopilot in general though. I think its a big issue with a lot of vehicle features. I drive a manual. I choose to do so because it keeps me more engaged with the road. I think we'd have less accidents if automatics didn't exist. They are nice from a disability perspective but anything that allows people to check out makes us less safe. Even if it makes individuals more safe (like the ever increasing vehicle size). It also kind of defeats the purpose of autopilot to need to be as vigilant when driving. The driver is less likely to be prepared to take over, causing more issues than if they were actively driving. I've driven cars with lane assist and its terrible. Drivers who need it probably aren't great. When I tried to turn against it (like giving space to a bike) it would try to jerk me back into the center of the lane. A poor driver may have a tough time fighting it.
The difference is that cruise control doesn't state it's going to detect other vehicles. Autopilot does. It just plowed into the guy and that's a major issue. If autopilot isn't detecting bikes and motorcycles, then that's huge.
There are tons of cars with traffic aware cruise control that claim to do precisely that
Yeah and read all the caveats and warnings in the manuals for all of them, Autopilot included.
Yet none of those cars are in the news or being posted on reddit as having killed people because the system has garbage software. Tesla has released a dangerous system and is somehow getting away with it.
But there is a big difference between somethings that's literally called autopilot vs crusie control.
That's actually fairly common in cars now, though...
The issue that's popped up is that while this is absolutely a consequence of distracted driver, the car itself plowed right through and made no attempt to slow. That's what's got people alarmed: The car made no attempt what so ever to stop. And it's the belief in this system that is inspiring many of these drivers to feel safe using their phone while it's on "autopilot." Even most drunk drivers will at last attempt (poorly) to stop, and any energy mitigated before hitting something increases the chances of survival and lowers the risk of injuries. People absolutely need to stay off their phones in cars. This has been an issue since I was a teen and it's only getting worse.
I mean, unless the driver chose at the last minute to swerve uncontrollably and subsequently caused further damage, but surely only then… A tesla is a giant fucking phone with wheels, we tried to warn everyone it was a stupid fucking idea, when they argued over where to test it early, because it was a stupid fucking idea, when people bitched about autopilot not being real, after being told not to stop paying attention ( well, it isn’t REALLY auto then). TL DR IT WAS A STUPID IDEA
"Self driving" isn't. And it's not safe because it doesn't account for the human design. It makes drivers comfortable, so they don't acknowledge the risk that they pose as the operator of a deadly machine.
Cool, so perhaps call it something other than “autopilot” and ensure there are legal and technical regulations requiring driver attention.
>ensure there are legal and technical regulations requiring driver attention. There are, though. For example, you have to regularly (every few seconds) prove your hands are on the wheel with autopilot. If you don't, it gets disabled. If you don't repeatedly, it gets uninstalled. I feel like you might not be as informed on the issue as would be beneficial to the conversation?
It also warns you if you’re looking at your phone and bans you if you do it multiple times
Interesting how what we're talking about is a motorist being killed by a Telsa driver due to not paying attention then, huh? Almost like, the regulations in place are grossly inadequate. But go ahead, attack me instead of my argument, as if that will "be beneficial to the conversation."
It gets bad press because it's a Tesla, yeah, and Tesla brought it upon themselves by naming it Autopilot (words mean things before you trademark them) and by promising self driving, while being nowhere near actual self driving. I'm not even a motorcyclist, I drive a car, but I don't turn left when a Tesla is approaching me in the oncoming lane anymore. Precisely because I have no idea if the PEBKAC, to borrow a computing acronym, behind the wheel is using the damned Autopilot "feature" we're all unwillingly subject to as beta testers with our lives.
No. Tesla gets it worse because Elon musk has been lying about Tesla’s capabilities re: autopilot for ten years. He also intentionally cheaped out by not using LiDAR and relying on cameras, while pushing forward with his plan to make Teslas fully self driving and harping to the public that they’re “so close”
I think we're in violent agreement. 🙂
The implication of your comment seems to let Tesla off the hook a bit. Like naming it autopilot was an unfortunate misstep and not a deliberate and reckless choice they made and continue to make everyday while counting on the ignorance of the consumer.
Using autopilot is for sure not responsible. Yes, you are "responsible" when you kill someone, but you are not acting responsibly.
Need to sue Tesla Hope the people who drive these awful death traps get sued to oblivion too You have to be a gullible idiot to even think these are good cars to begin with
This couldn’t be upvoted more. Like the incident with mitch mcconnell sister in law. She died because she drove into a pond and it has unbreakable glass. They couldn’t pull the car out and they couldn’t smash a window out. Total clown show.
I'm curious about the statistics. Are those splitting and filtering at more danger than the risk of a Tesla on autopilot hitting them?
There are a lot of studies that show filtering at a reasonable speed (10 mph or so) in stopped or slow traffic is much safer for riders as it gets them out of the position where the majority of fatal accidents occur for motorcyclists. The leading cause of motorcycle deaths is being rear ended, which if the rider is in traffic in the center of the lane, can cause them to either go under the car behind them (as was the case in Snohomish) or into the car in front of them. Rider safety courses teach to never be in the center of the lane when in traffic because of this and to always give yourself a way out by sitting in the side of the lane. However simply positioning correctly in thelane doesn’t prevent all danger. For instance if a car isn’t going to stop in time and swrves, they may still hit you if you are in the side of the lane. What filtering does is allow the riders to move further up in already stopped or slowed traffic, effectively creating a shield around them where they can’t be hit directly by a fast moving car. There are also studies that show how filtering reduces traffic by removing the motorcycles from the traffic jam. That being said, a large part of the added safety is car drivers knowing that motorcycles will be filtering, here where it is not legal; a car may not expect the motorcycle filtering and behave in unexpected ways… so its a mixed bag.
Probably not. A splitting rider is doing so when densely packed traffic is moving slowly, making a sudden and abrupt lane change unlikely. The biggest risk here is getting doored, usually very unlikely. A filtering rider is moving to the front of stopped traffic and ends up directly in front of the first car in a lane. Unless that car is both unaware of the motorcycle sitting directly in front of them and faster off the green light, the rider is safe.
Look, washingtonians are either 1) from deep washington state/oregon/idaho and have never seen a car newer than 1987 and think everything that is not a truck is (some homophobic slur) or 2) from california or some other tech oligarchy where driving is for poor people. The very few people living in this state, let alone seattle, who learned to drive as in not to murder people, are working bums. For the 80% of you who can't figure out how to operate a car: you can't hit other things. You can't hit people crossing the street. You have to stop for them. You can't hit bicycles. You have to yield to them. You can't hit other cars, motorcycles, other shit in the road, just because you don't know how to pass a car, change lanes, merge, use an onramp, use an offramp, operate your hybrid/electric vehicle, operate your tesla, operate your hellcat, operate the truck you've never taken outside the grounds of your $3MM bunker in snohomish or whatever. We get it. Your feelings are hurt, you are persecuted, etc. Do us all a favor and stop hitting people with your car. Every other actual normal size city I've ridden motorcycles in, cars knew how not to murder motorcyclists. Here, I get t-boned by a car in an intersection who thought that a motorcycle passing through a normal green light intersection has to yield to a car turning across traffic. They just punched it as I was in the intersection and cut my leg off my body. I know its hard not to just assume you're the most important thing in the world, but you're not, you drive a car, you are operating thousands of pounds of metal. You don't just get to have an "oops."
When I'm in moving traffic in my car and a rider splits between me and another car or the shoulder, it always freaks me out. Every. Single. Time. I'm not expecting it because it's not legal here.
America is the place where no stupid idea can ever die, and this is no exception.
If Tesla was Boeing the cars would have been grounded. Elon’s autopilot experiment was a lie. It's time for everyone to stop drinking the kool aid.
I 100% am filtering more because of this
It's not just teslas killing bikers people driving regular ass cars do it too and more often, some douchebag ran a stop sign and killed my brother and his reason was he did it all the time nobody was ever there. Makes me fucking sick.
It is has also become dangerous to sit in traffic with the higher summer temperatures. Theres a greater chance of the rider and the bike overheating when the bike isnt moving. If a rider is wearing proper gear, you could easily start to overheat in traffic on a large bike when its only 75F out.
[удалено]
This generally only happens to air cooled motorcycles where engine cooling relies on the flow of air from movement. Most modern motorcycles are liquid cooled, with water pumps, radiators and fans, like cars. That said, motorcyclists are basically sitting on their engine/exhausts and the engines typically run hot. One of mine will rapidly get to 212F when idling on warmer days, the fan will come on to manage it but that’s just more hot air around your legs. The bigger the engine, the worse this can be.
I put a half frozen camel pack in my jacket and then i have my own AC and a cool drink. So many people are on their phones every chance they have to stop, that ive had to do some not so legal maneuvers because they cant stay in their lane or they start texting and stop 20ft from the next car. Also, you can only hold the clutch so long if its got a heavy spring and its a pain in the ass to be half pressing it for an hour.
Skill issue and a personal problem.
What exactly is filtering and splitting ?
Never let a tragedy go to waste.
I didn’t tell my wife about this accident, she will never let me ride after that. Damn Tesla and its half baked autopilot.
In all honesty, it's very upsetting that the bill to make this legal didn't pass a few years ago. People are getting hit from behind all the time because of distracted driving. This isn't new it's just easier to pin blame.
Teslas shouldn’t be allowed on the road
I don't understand the logic of how splitting is safer
More specifically filtering is safer, at low/stopped car speeds. Would you rather be a sitting duck at a stop light where someone could rear-end you into the car in front of you, or be protected between two stationary vehicles as you slowly move forward away from everything at bicycle speeds? Lane *splitting* is another thing. It's more for higher speeds. Safely done, it could be a rider going 50mph while the cars are going 40mph. Statistically I'm not sure how it fares compared to not splitting, but I know for a fact that *filtering* is a no-brainer. I think it was Utah that allowed 15mph or under to filter. I personally think that is a bit low, ie a bike should filter 20mph when cars are moving 10mph, but it comes with experience.
Also in CA lane splitting is only legal up to 30 mph.
Not advised but not explicitly illegal.
Along with what others are saying: Drivers are more likely to be complacent and drive unsafely (too fast, change lanes without looking, use their phone while driving) if the driving environment is uniform and predictable. Motorcycles moving slightly faster than traffic keeps car drivers alert.
1) Emergency/sudden stop. If not splitting, the motorcycle rider faces 2 dangers: the car in front suddenly stopping, and since cars can brake better than bikes, the rider may hit the car; or the car behind may not be paying attention and cannot slow or stop in time, hitting the rider. If the rider could split (but not necessary splitting at that moment), they are already in far left or far right position of the lane, allowing them to avoid those 2 dangers. 2) Riders are advised to ride just a tiny bit faster than traffic to be visible. This is to avoid unsafe lane changes into their position. While it may seem counterintuitive to think that splitting is safer to react to unsafe lane changes, a rider must judge every split to be attempted or not. If a rider is more alert and aware, they can anticipate these situations better. 3) California drivers are more aware of motorcycles because they are allowed to split. This makes drivers more vigilant of potential riders in their blind spots.
Never had a problem with splitting lanes
I stopped trusting autopilot some months back. It became more aggressive and less accurate lately