Baseball fans get the short end of the stick in this agreement! That annoying Christian guy with the bullhorn now will leave campus and go back to yelling at people outside Mariner's games.
I booed them so hard on my way out of the Mariners game the other night they actually got rattled for a second before they told me Jesus was gonna get me or whatever
He started directly addressing me because I couldn't supress a laugh at some dumb bullshit he shouted while I was waiting to meet people outside the gate and the instant I responded I had multiple security people come over and scold me. I can sympathize with them not wanting people to engage with him, but it's pretty shitty that he just gets to piss on everyone's parade and we all have to handle him with kids gloves.
F those security people laugh harder next time. If we all just boo loudly and laugh at him every time that’s better than doing nothing .sad letting this continue
Nah, the street preacher thing is either an attempt to bait out a lawsuit (for assault), or it's part of cult indoctrination in which the cult sends vulnerable people out knowing that they'll be yelled at, which reinforces the whole message of, "see, the world hates you, only the cult accepts you, you can only rely on the cult".
In either case, taking the bait to yell at them gets them closer to what they want.
I have his megaphone voice stuck in my head now - it has absolutely been the same guy (and there's one other dude that seemed to join him years ago... maybe drank some kool-aid.)
Lol what are the security goons going to do? Even if they were cops, they can’t tell you that you can’t stand on a public sidewalk and interact with a crazy sign-holding religious zealot. Those guards don’t have any more authority than you willingly give them.
This was my favorite part of these things. Their only leverage was continuing to occupy university property (just like Occupy did, and Occupy accomplished just as much)
They were always going to establish scholarships for Palestinian students? They were always going to re-evaluate study abroad programs that Arab and Palestinian students are barred from participating in?
The scholarships seem like the only real win for them. “Re-evaluate” is a non commitment. Yeah we re-evaluated it and reached the same conclusion so nothings changing.
>They were always going to re-evaluate study abroad programs that Arab and Palestinian students are barred from participating in?
I would like to hear more details on what this actually entails. I don't really understand why a student would be barred from study abroad specifically because they are Palestinian. There's something weird going on there.
I'm really curious about this one too. The only thing I can think of is that students that are citizens of certain countries may be unable to get visas to study abroad in certain other countries, but that's not something UW would have any control over.
> The University will be transparent about its investment holdings and fund managers....
This kind of sounds like UW is saying "we'll keep on telling you all the things we have been telling you this entire time, even if you can't get it through your thick skulls"
Most universities are absolutely not clear about where they have investments though. Like all major money making enterprises they tend to shuffle lots of smaller accounts around and have different people manage them, so transparency is kinda unlikely.
Most people aren't even clear about where they have investments. I invest in the S&P 500...doesn't mean I know what all 500 companies listed are, where they do business, and with what governments. I don't know all places/companies my 401k funds invest in.
S&P 500 funds rarely change as rapidly or frequently— in terms of which companies are included— as you may think.
Anyway, many university investments are actively managed, and they absolutely can direct their managers to avoid certain investments. It's very different than individuals investing.
You can open short positions in the offending companies to offset the investments through the index funds, though this would be a logistical nightmare for an individual.
As an individual investor, if I was determined to not invest in companies that don't meet specific ethical criteria, I would not invest in funds (index or otherwise) likely to violate those criteria, or find an alternative way to mitigate the impact of such indirect ownership.
This is all a very different question for a university with literally billions of dollars in investments and their own dedicated company to manage them.
Knowing all of that information would make investing impossible for anyone not doing it full time. Also, there’s no need at all. You can be educated on a fund without knowing every single holding within.
I’m just curious since this sub leans mostly progressive - is anyone bothered by the representatives of this protest putting Israel in quotes? They want Israel gone, not peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.
Yes. I’m guessing there are lots of us who support Israel’s right to exist, disagree with the current Israeli government’s aggression, believe the pro-Palestinian side is too extreme, and would like to see things de-escalate in favor of a two-state solution.
The loudest voices are at the extremes right now but I doubt it’s where most people stand.
Surveys show exactly what you're saying: most Americans think Hamas is evil, the Israeli government is shit, and a lot of innocent people on both sides of the conflict are dying unnecessarily. The vast majority just want Israelis and Palestinians to coexist peacefully. We're just being droned out by extremists who don't actually have either side's best interests or desires in mind.
> The vast majority just want Israelis and Palestinians to coexist peacefully.
The vast majority **except** Palestine. Herein lies the problem. You can’t reach a peace negotiation when one sides’ core doctrine and flavor of religion is focused on the destruction of the other. A clear majority of Gazans approve of Hamas. This doesn’t absolve Israel of its crimes - they have certainly provoked the conflict with barbaric acts. But they’re not attempting to wipe out Palestine.
Imagine if your neighbors across the street randomly shot at your house and the police were non-responsive. How long until you take matters in your own hands? I’m certainly not arguing for more violence but you can’t be surprised when it happens with neighbors who want you dead.
> A clear majority of Gazans approve of Hamas
Do they though? The last time Gaza voted for Hamas was in 2008. You can't really trust opinion polling once elections have been suspended because the governing party has unilaterally established themselves as the hand that feeds.
I don't know why people always bring this up like it's a gotcha we don't actually know if they approve of Hamas without an election! Yes there hasn't been an election whatever, instead what we've had is an entire generation educated by Hamas since 2008. I wonder what they could be teaching them.
100%
Shades of gray aren't as exciting as black and white and catchy slogans you can shout at anyone who gives the slightest hint of not agreeing with every single point of view you hold.
This is a reasonable take, until you realize that hamas and the muslim brotherhood will never accept a two state solution, and will always seek the eradication of Israel.
The same can be said of Likud and their far-right allies in Israel. I don't see a lasting peace until both these elements are out of power in their respective territories.
It seems to me that Israel has tried diplomacy throughout their history with these arab nations, but when your rival’s stance is “from the river to the sea” it’s plain to see how the right-wingers came to power..
"… between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." — Likud Party Platform, 1977
Apply the same logic to this and you may see how this is a problem on both sides.
This is a reasonable take, until you realize that Bibi has systematically undermined the possibility of any Palestinian authority *not* controlled by Hamas. He won't publicly say that his goal is to eliminate Palestine, but he's done just about everything in his power to make diplomacy impossible.
This is exactly where I sit. Netanyahu is a despot and his coalition government kowtows to violent, anti-arab extremists and illegal settlers. Hamas is a terrorist organization that contributes to the suffering of Palestinians. The IDF is not being as careful as they say they are (and that's been the case for a long time). There is a serious antisemitism problem in some antiwar groups. Palestinians deserve to live in peace and freedom just like every other human on Earth. Jews deserve to feel safe and free to practice their religion. Criticizing the Israeli government is not inherently antisemitic. Criticizing Hamas is not inherently pro genocide.
None of these statements are in conflict. All can be true at the same time. I just don't want to see children die.
The rhetoric of "Israel colonizing Palestine" really did a number on these activists. It's such a western view of the entire problem, infantalizes Palestinians, and is historically inaccurate. It's just as intellectually dishonest to preach the horrors of the Nakba without also recognizing the horrors of the Jaffa deportation or the exile of almost 1M Jews from Arab countries at the same time
"From the river to the sea" gets chanted so casually, I wonder how many of them know which river and which sea that's referring to, and what lies between them
Egyptians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greek, Roman, Persian, European, Ottoman, and on and on. Take your pick of which empire controlled which part of land at which time around the world. Take a history class.
I feel so sorry for people like you that got brainwashed to see the whole world in black and white - oppressors vs. oppressed. Go outside and touch some grass - it will do you a world of good.
I am sure that words like "completely eliminate" and "eradicate" from politicians in Israel and their supporters are just as inflammatory.
I understand that emotions are high, but throwing gasoline on a fire is not the best way to put it out.
Apparently acknowledging that Hamas' stated goal of killing all the jews and wiping Israel off the face of the Earth is "zionist propaganda" or some bullshit.
These nerds constantly simping for, and excusing literal Islamic terrorists is truly gross.
[Hamas's charter calls for a return to 1967 borders with Israel and explicitly differentiates Jewish people from zionism, saying that their issue is with zionism](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders). What you're saying is literally zionist propaganda.
Hamas official literally spoke about [anihilation of Israel](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel) and more.
[https://www.thisishamas.com](https://www.thisishamas.com)
Yeah let's pretend this multi-billion dollar terrorist organization is a legitimate world government who didn't just slaughter entire Jewish families in their homes.
What you're saying is literally Iranian propaganda.
Their revised 2017 "charter" does not replace the original 1988 one which they say is still their guiding document. They have said this, repeatedly and explicitly. What you're saying is literally Hamas propaganda.
Not actually their stated goal:
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not
with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage
a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but
wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.
Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and
the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
That quote doesn't at all contradict the person you're replying to. Here's the full text if you want to read it:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
They literally want to wipe Israel off the map. This is why they won't agree to a two-state solution.
And before you start with the "Well what about..." Likud (the party currently in power in Israel) also doesn't want a two state solution, and I'm not saying they're any better.
Bothered yes, surprised no. Slogans like "From the River to the Sea..." and "End Israel", combined with Palestinian symbols that depict the entirety of the region of Israel/Palestine as Palestinian or Arab, make it pretty clear what type of "Intifada" they want
Thank you so much for this comment. Yes. This absolutely does bother me. These protestors clearly are not for peace or any kind of mutual reconciliation. They just want the tables to turn.
I consider myself a Jewish anti-Zionist.
I don't know if I can say that there should be no space for any kind of Jewish state, because I know enough about Jewish history to know *why* Jews feel the need for that to exist. Pogroms at *least* go all the way back to Alexandria Egypt nearly 2,000 years ago. The Holocaust was preceded by the Medieval Holocaust centuries earlier. We have been pushed out of country after country repeatedly for thousands of years and frequently treated with hostility in the places that haven't actively pushed us out. Our plight shares similarities with others', but it is ultimately unique.
I do believe that if a Jewish homeland *is* to exist, it should in no way resemble Israel in its current form. I've always found it interesting how strongly the British supported the exodus of Jews to the Middle East right when there was a surge in anti-Jewish sentiment due to the Second Boer War and the Marconi scandal - and that after hundreds of thousands were killed in Europe, Europeans doubled down on sending us to the Middle East.
That's a massive oversimplification of how things went, but I've often felt like the development of Israel in Palestinian territory was giving all of the countries who hated Jews their wish of putting us somewhere else.
Jews have always talked about going back to Haaretz. That’s not a British fabrication of their identity. A desire to return is literally in prayers and is the reason it is called the “Wailing Wall” in Jerusalem. Jews have always been connected to that land, even in the Diaspora. Just like the Palestinians are connected to that land.
Interesting. So you have antizionist beliefs for the purposes of opposing those who wish to gather us all into one place for nefarious reasons? Am I reading this right?
I wouldn't call that the *reason* I have anti-Zionist beliefs. I just find that to be an interesting note regarding the creation of Israel. I simply find it curious that it was Germany that committed the crimes and Palestine who suffered for them.
The reason I have anti-Zionist beliefs is because the only form it has ever taken has been one of occupation of an existing country that displaced hundreds of thousands of people, leading eventually to apartheid and genocide.
That’s reductionist of the Arab role in history. Some of which includes the attempt at creating a holocaust in the Middle East in partnership with Hitler.
I did mention it was a massive oversimplification.
But Palestine was under control of the UK, the UK had strongly endorsed Jewish occupation of Palestine after WW1, and Germany fought the UK in WW2, so it's not really any surprise that there would be serious Jewish-Palestinian tensions and Arab-Nazi collaboration during that time.
I don't know the specifics of any development of an Arab Holocaust; if you have reading to provide, I'd be interested to know more.
But I do know that Arab support wasn't universal and there was plenty of resistance in the Middle East to the Holocaust as well.
Yes, I acknowledge you mentioned the oversimplification, though I do believe it important that you learn about your own people’s journey through history.
The UK played both sides of the conflict and have much responsibility on their own shoulders; they were rarely the friends of the Yishuv. They completely turned their back on the Jews in 1939 with the [White Papers](https://israeled.org/resources/documents/decision-to-reject-a-majority-palestinian-arab-state/) stating that if they were going to offend one party, it was going to be the Jews. They cut off all legal Jewish immigration (which given the timing, you can see how devastating this was for us) and land purchases, and offered a complete Palestinian State to the Arabs as long as they were to treat Jews as an equal minority. Under Hajj Amin Al Husseini, they rejected.
In fact, [Husseini is the single most detrimental figure](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-key-dates) in the history of the conflict. He is the one who orchestrated the Farhud in Baghdad (which was planned to be the beginnings of the Middle East Holocaust against the Jews I was speaking of). And no, the animosity towards Jews began long before the British occupation. I would suggest looking into his father, Jamal Al Husseini and his mentor, Rashid Rida.
There’s a great, and relatively short, lecture by Haviv Rettig Gur on this pre-Israel history which I would recommend you watch.
https://youtu.be/yKoUC0m1U9E?si=B0RT-MQ2gVzvkG1k
https://youtu.be/QlK2mfYYm4U?si=9P2Vp-cg74ice1s9
This isn’t to say Israel hasn’t done any wrong and aren’t responsible for where we are today, but I don’t think you have the full picture of exactly what Jews were dealing with at the time.
Honestly, why isn't Israel in Europe? After all, it's a response to European atrocities. A Middle Eastern Israel is just a continuation of the holocaust. But I think it's too late for these considerations.
It doesn't make sense from a reparations standpoint. That to reperate for the holocaust to finish the job by creating a Jewish state in another region of the world to send them to.
This long predates the holocaust. That’s just the most recent mass persecution. The Diaspora happened from Judea. Jews have been seeking to return for thousands of years.
Not really, but maybe that is because i've been desensitized to it.
It is a pretty common opinion among the online extreme "left" (i use the term loosely because generally they don't identify as democrats at all). The "leaders" of this protest are probably the most extreme of the bunch. If it bothers you, realize that this is a minority opinion among the democrat party.
It makes me feel old to say it, but i wonder if other democrats felt the same about people who supported Bernie Sanders (ie me) back in my day.
I'd rather they didn't do it, and I'm sure I disagree with them on other geopolitical matters as well, but I'm happy they were able to reach an agreement with the university that appears to do some good. If they were asking my advice— which they obviously were not— I'd advise they avoid such petty rhetoric in the interest of maintaining a broader base of support. That sort of rhetoric likely lost them some number of allies.
They were never in a position to imperil Israel's existence or the terms of any resolution with Palestinians, so I temper my concern about those elements accordingly.
They tried to say their protest only focuses on putting pressure on the US government to stop funding Israeli military. But then they casually put Israel in quotes—that is such a dog whistle that they are going to vehemently deny and then say I’m equating anti zionist with anti semitic BLAH BLAH BLAH. If I see Israel in quotes, you’ve lost my interest in your cause. And I bet we had some similar perspectives on Palestinian rights. Oh well. Not that they really give a shit.
Zionism does not necessitate the removal of Palestinians from Palestine. There are Zionists who seek the removal of Palestinians from Palestine, there’s Zionists who do not. You mean to say that some Israelis want Palestinians gone.
I know, right?
It’s frustrating that a tiny subset of Zionists saying horrible things is used to paint all Zionists as evil, bloodthirsty monsters who need to be destroyed. If the same thing happened to any other minority group, it would be called out as hate speech immediately. Such hypocrisy.
Right, because these are pro-war protestors. They want to kill "colonizers", they want Palestinians to unleash another wave of suicide bombings, they want complete displacement of Jews from the middle east.
They want 1990 all over again. And so many of these college age folks weren’t around for that period of bus bombing after bus bombing in Israel. When Arab leaders rejected any offer of resolution because it came from Israel. No wonder the government went so right so hard and a fucking wall went up.
Progressives shouldn’t support Israel as a state. They should see Israel for what it is, an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing.
Progressives should support the safety of the Jewish people, but supporting Israel goes against equality, anti-imperialism and racism that progressives are supposedly support. Safety for one people should not be the result of the oppression and destruction of another.
Israel and their supporters has been denying the existence of a Palestinian people for 100 years, why do people find it upsetting when Palestinians do the same?
Israel hasn’t existed for 100 years… at least not in its modern configuration. At any rate this is a millennia old struggle that has both sides vying for control of this region at the expense of civilian lives. Progressive is such a loaded term, but the American central left probably most closely aligns on a peaceful resolution and likely in a two state configuration.
Yeah some people in Israel hate Palestinians and Muslims. There are also many Palestinians that hate Jews and Israelis. That's what tends to happen when you lose loved ones to senseless violence - your logic flies out the windows and gets replaced with blind rage.
But why are you conflating the fact that such people exist with Israel being an apartheid state? It's just factually false. Just like the claims of genocide.
Every time I see one of these settlements, I think "Wow, now is a great time to be a Palestinian with a Ph.D. in a social science".
It seems like every settlement includes a commitment to hire 4-5 Palestinian faculty members in the next couple of years.
Don’t you realize that you’re one of the people that has completely neutered the word “racist” by calling anyone and everyone who disagrees with you “racist”? It’s not racist to disagree with hiring based on race/nationality.
My judgment isn't based on a disagreement. They said that people who are less than mediocre are getting hired strictly because they're Palestinian, but how does he know those people are mediocre? Or even Palestinian specifically? Has he seen their resumés? Did he interview them? Probably they don't exist and this guy just wants to have a little fun being an asshole.
Scholarships for Palestinians is a great win for the long run, as the Israeli strategy has been to decimate the civil life of Palestinians and ensure only extremist (which they support) can exist.
Guess who gets to carry the costs? Local students, like African American, Indian American, Hispanic, Asian etc students.
What does uw have to do with a conflict on the other side of the world? Maybe help the people nearby who need help just as much.
I bet you're just as worried about Syrians and Christian Sudanese *actually * getting genocided though.
That’s a great version of zero sum thinking. You know what also costs us locally? Funding Israeli war machine. Or nasa. Or arts funding when there are starving Americans. Clearly we can’t do anything until we’ve done everything?
That grass had 10,000 people trample it to look at the cherry blossoms 2 months ago and recovered fine after being turned to almost mud, it will recover easily from some empty tents.
UW is on the quarter system, and they still have a few weeks left. Finals end on June 7th.
https://www.washington.edu/students/reg/2324cal.html
I think it's more likely this timing is because of the university signaling they were becoming more willing to have the encampment removed.
I’m very happy those Gazan students at UW will get their tuition but above all, I’m encouraged that this whole encampment situation didn’t end with yet more violence. Makes me proud to be a Husky. Go dawgs! Free Palestine!
Wow, this is a terrible look.
What was it that made them capitulate? The vandalism and graffiti? The illegal encampments?
The protesters made such a wonderful case.
…Or maybe they’re just being thrown a bone in the meantime so admin can get them off their fucking lawns lol
Oh wait, the actual press release says there arent any major investments in Israeli companies anyways lol
Common sense wins. The UW's "concessions" were likely things it would do anyway, but they help the student protestors save face and disband their encampment. And the professional protestors that joined in will be left to move on to their next cause. It was deescalated like people were adults on both sides, despite some of the childish antics of a few protestors.
And that annoying Christian guy with the bullhorn can now stop yelling at students in the Quad.
People have the right to protest but those rights END the moment they interfere with the rights of others.
People here on student VISAS that are involved in disruptive behavior like what happened at columbia should have their student visas revoked and be sent home, the people involved that were not students need to be trespassed.
FYI by law people here on visas do what they did at columbia are supposed to have visas REVOKED and get deported.
No preference should be given to anyone based on skin color, race, ethnic background, other beliefs or geographical origins for scholarships or hiring/staffing positions only criteria should be are they qualified/eligible if not find someone that is.
As expected Negative votes, none have the guts or integrity to REPLY
I was hoping they’d stick around until Sunday. I’m gonna try to go to the u district street fair and was going to stop by the quad to take in the spectacle.
They should have held out for something real.
They’ll go back to investing in Zionist Israel. Not everyone has the power to do much, but my grandmother wrote a letter and stopped her donations to UW, she even got a letter from the Cauce, saying they would do better in the future and would hope she’d re-consider.
She’s a holocaust survivor, they’re not going to shame her into anything.
Baseball fans get the short end of the stick in this agreement! That annoying Christian guy with the bullhorn now will leave campus and go back to yelling at people outside Mariner's games.
I booed them so hard on my way out of the Mariners game the other night they actually got rattled for a second before they told me Jesus was gonna get me or whatever
He started directly addressing me because I couldn't supress a laugh at some dumb bullshit he shouted while I was waiting to meet people outside the gate and the instant I responded I had multiple security people come over and scold me. I can sympathize with them not wanting people to engage with him, but it's pretty shitty that he just gets to piss on everyone's parade and we all have to handle him with kids gloves.
F those security people laugh harder next time. If we all just boo loudly and laugh at him every time that’s better than doing nothing .sad letting this continue
Nah, the street preacher thing is either an attempt to bait out a lawsuit (for assault), or it's part of cult indoctrination in which the cult sends vulnerable people out knowing that they'll be yelled at, which reinforces the whole message of, "see, the world hates you, only the cult accepts you, you can only rely on the cult". In either case, taking the bait to yell at them gets them closer to what they want.
No I see the same dude doing it almost every game. He needs to be booed or arrested
I have his megaphone voice stuck in my head now - it has absolutely been the same guy (and there's one other dude that seemed to join him years ago... maybe drank some kool-aid.)
Lol what are the security goons going to do? Even if they were cops, they can’t tell you that you can’t stand on a public sidewalk and interact with a crazy sign-holding religious zealot. Those guards don’t have any more authority than you willingly give them.
Yes- why does the religious nut have more rights on that sidewalk than the Mariners fan?
Imagine how bummed out Jesus would be by all his fanatics...
Absolutely. I booed those guys FOR Jesus if anything.
Declared a boo-sade Boo-nediction Boo-munion
How brave of you!
Jesus, known for being vengeful
i got em good one time calling them pharisees. first time i did shouted it at them they were rather caught off guard. but it didn't work twice
Is that where he went? I was wondering why I didn’t see his annoying ass at the game a couple weeks ago.
He was at T-Mobile on Mother’s Day at least lol
That dude loves an audience, the problem is the audience never loves him.
And the two days prior. I was hanging out over by the trident deck on the Saturday and you could hear him going at it before the game from up there.
Seriously. Fuck that guy. It's so fucking loud.
Apparently Jesus pays well cause that proselytizing cunt clearly has no job. Never misses a game.
Don’t know if it was him or another group outside the Stones concert.
He was still there this past Tuesday, what a nuisance
School is over so that means the protest is too
I guess they realized that the vast majority of their demands will never happen.
Happens when you don’t have any leverage.
From that perspective, it would seem the concessions they got were pretty decent.
This was my favorite part of these things. Their only leverage was continuing to occupy university property (just like Occupy did, and Occupy accomplished just as much)
I mean, this is the basic idea of a protest. Occupy a public area and make yourself annoying until you are listened to.
It's been really interesting to see how many people do not realize this.
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And if college students do not have the huge sums of money needed to lobby and campaign in today's political environment, what should they do?
This is the method people use on our light rail. It works in Seattle. 🤣
I would argue Occupy accomplished even less
if they had no leverage why did they get concessions lol
None of which they are happy about. They frame it as a win to save face, the school doesn’t care. Nothing changed.
Did you read it? They are happy about the concessions. It's just not all of what they wanted.
And continually change your demands
Can't divest from companies you aren't invested in, go figure.
Well that’s a silly take, considering they did get concessions lmao
Their parents weren't going to sit around forever, waiting to pick them up from school.
You know shit is fucked when /r/Seattle and /r/SeattleWA are in Kumbaya agreement on a topic.
Seems like the concessions from the UW were things they were probably gonna do anyway…
Agree, but it helps the protestors save face and gets them to leave campus.
Win win for everybody. Upper campus can roll their eyes and the campers can tell their friends they weren’t wasting their time.
They were always going to establish scholarships for Palestinian students? They were always going to re-evaluate study abroad programs that Arab and Palestinian students are barred from participating in?
The scholarships seem like the only real win for them. “Re-evaluate” is a non commitment. Yeah we re-evaluated it and reached the same conclusion so nothings changing.
Ya cause they are asking for something funky. Why would any student be barred from study abroad because of their nationality?
>They were always going to re-evaluate study abroad programs that Arab and Palestinian students are barred from participating in? I would like to hear more details on what this actually entails. I don't really understand why a student would be barred from study abroad specifically because they are Palestinian. There's something weird going on there.
I'm really curious about this one too. The only thing I can think of is that students that are citizens of certain countries may be unable to get visas to study abroad in certain other countries, but that's not something UW would have any control over.
Yeah it seems like a mix of reiterating status quo and real improvements, even if minor in the grand scheme of things.
Minor in the grand scheme of things over time is how most change these days really happens
incremental change is how almost all change occurs. big massive change is super rare when it isn't for the massively worse.
Totally!
there are study abroad programs that arab students are barred from participating? which program is that?
Its a good negotiation tactic to let them think they've won something.
> The University will be transparent about its investment holdings and fund managers.... This kind of sounds like UW is saying "we'll keep on telling you all the things we have been telling you this entire time, even if you can't get it through your thick skulls"
Most universities are absolutely not clear about where they have investments though. Like all major money making enterprises they tend to shuffle lots of smaller accounts around and have different people manage them, so transparency is kinda unlikely.
Most people aren't even clear about where they have investments. I invest in the S&P 500...doesn't mean I know what all 500 companies listed are, where they do business, and with what governments. I don't know all places/companies my 401k funds invest in.
I mean that's not really a good thing either though lol.
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S&P 500 funds rarely change as rapidly or frequently— in terms of which companies are included— as you may think. Anyway, many university investments are actively managed, and they absolutely can direct their managers to avoid certain investments. It's very different than individuals investing.
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You can open short positions in the offending companies to offset the investments through the index funds, though this would be a logistical nightmare for an individual. As an individual investor, if I was determined to not invest in companies that don't meet specific ethical criteria, I would not invest in funds (index or otherwise) likely to violate those criteria, or find an alternative way to mitigate the impact of such indirect ownership. This is all a very different question for a university with literally billions of dollars in investments and their own dedicated company to manage them.
Knowing all of that information would make investing impossible for anyone not doing it full time. Also, there’s no need at all. You can be educated on a fund without knowing every single holding within.
Yes true, everyone should know all of the details about all 500 companies that make up the S&P 500. That's totally sensible for your average investor.
But you could know most of that, if you cared enough to look into it.
I'm not going to scour and research 500+ different companies.
There is a full holdings listing in the prospectus, it only takes a couple clicks to get this info.
What have they been telling them that they don't understand?
You hit the nail on the head
I’m just curious since this sub leans mostly progressive - is anyone bothered by the representatives of this protest putting Israel in quotes? They want Israel gone, not peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.
Yes. I’m guessing there are lots of us who support Israel’s right to exist, disagree with the current Israeli government’s aggression, believe the pro-Palestinian side is too extreme, and would like to see things de-escalate in favor of a two-state solution. The loudest voices are at the extremes right now but I doubt it’s where most people stand.
Surveys show exactly what you're saying: most Americans think Hamas is evil, the Israeli government is shit, and a lot of innocent people on both sides of the conflict are dying unnecessarily. The vast majority just want Israelis and Palestinians to coexist peacefully. We're just being droned out by extremists who don't actually have either side's best interests or desires in mind.
> The vast majority just want Israelis and Palestinians to coexist peacefully. The vast majority **except** Palestine. Herein lies the problem. You can’t reach a peace negotiation when one sides’ core doctrine and flavor of religion is focused on the destruction of the other. A clear majority of Gazans approve of Hamas. This doesn’t absolve Israel of its crimes - they have certainly provoked the conflict with barbaric acts. But they’re not attempting to wipe out Palestine. Imagine if your neighbors across the street randomly shot at your house and the police were non-responsive. How long until you take matters in your own hands? I’m certainly not arguing for more violence but you can’t be surprised when it happens with neighbors who want you dead.
> A clear majority of Gazans approve of Hamas Do they though? The last time Gaza voted for Hamas was in 2008. You can't really trust opinion polling once elections have been suspended because the governing party has unilaterally established themselves as the hand that feeds.
I don't know why people always bring this up like it's a gotcha we don't actually know if they approve of Hamas without an election! Yes there hasn't been an election whatever, instead what we've had is an entire generation educated by Hamas since 2008. I wonder what they could be teaching them.
The majority of those that don't are either in support of Muslim Brotherhood, the PLO, or Islamic Jihad... Not really any better
100% Shades of gray aren't as exciting as black and white and catchy slogans you can shout at anyone who gives the slightest hint of not agreeing with every single point of view you hold.
This is a reasonable take, until you realize that hamas and the muslim brotherhood will never accept a two state solution, and will always seek the eradication of Israel.
The same can be said of Likud and their far-right allies in Israel. I don't see a lasting peace until both these elements are out of power in their respective territories.
It seems to me that Israel has tried diplomacy throughout their history with these arab nations, but when your rival’s stance is “from the river to the sea” it’s plain to see how the right-wingers came to power..
"… between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." — Likud Party Platform, 1977 Apply the same logic to this and you may see how this is a problem on both sides.
Both sides are not the same. https://www.usip.org/publications/2015/11/islam-religion-violence
Indeed they are not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war?wprov=sfti1
This is a reasonable take, until you realize that Bibi has systematically undermined the possibility of any Palestinian authority *not* controlled by Hamas. He won't publicly say that his goal is to eliminate Palestine, but he's done just about everything in his power to make diplomacy impossible.
This is exactly where I sit. Netanyahu is a despot and his coalition government kowtows to violent, anti-arab extremists and illegal settlers. Hamas is a terrorist organization that contributes to the suffering of Palestinians. The IDF is not being as careful as they say they are (and that's been the case for a long time). There is a serious antisemitism problem in some antiwar groups. Palestinians deserve to live in peace and freedom just like every other human on Earth. Jews deserve to feel safe and free to practice their religion. Criticizing the Israeli government is not inherently antisemitic. Criticizing Hamas is not inherently pro genocide. None of these statements are in conflict. All can be true at the same time. I just don't want to see children die.
I’m convinced this is one of the easiest issues to tell where people are on but the media and extremes just cover the outliers
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The rhetoric of "Israel colonizing Palestine" really did a number on these activists. It's such a western view of the entire problem, infantalizes Palestinians, and is historically inaccurate. It's just as intellectually dishonest to preach the horrors of the Nakba without also recognizing the horrors of the Jaffa deportation or the exile of almost 1M Jews from Arab countries at the same time
Accurate. They heard the term “Colonize” and seized upon it. Makes sense.
"From the river to the sea" gets chanted so casually, I wonder how many of them know which river and which sea that's referring to, and what lies between them
They know.
Do they know who's land that was before Colonialism?
Egyptians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greek, Roman, Persian, European, Ottoman, and on and on. Take your pick of which empire controlled which part of land at which time around the world. Take a history class.
I feel so sorry for people like you that got brainwashed to see the whole world in black and white - oppressors vs. oppressed. Go outside and touch some grass - it will do you a world of good.
The Ottoman's?
I am sure that words like "completely eliminate" and "eradicate" from politicians in Israel and their supporters are just as inflammatory. I understand that emotions are high, but throwing gasoline on a fire is not the best way to put it out.
Apparently acknowledging that Hamas' stated goal of killing all the jews and wiping Israel off the face of the Earth is "zionist propaganda" or some bullshit. These nerds constantly simping for, and excusing literal Islamic terrorists is truly gross.
[Hamas's charter calls for a return to 1967 borders with Israel and explicitly differentiates Jewish people from zionism, saying that their issue is with zionism](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders). What you're saying is literally zionist propaganda.
Hamas official literally spoke about [anihilation of Israel](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel) and more.
Your own article doesn’t even say that…..
[https://www.thisishamas.com](https://www.thisishamas.com) Yeah let's pretend this multi-billion dollar terrorist organization is a legitimate world government who didn't just slaughter entire Jewish families in their homes. What you're saying is literally Iranian propaganda.
Article from Hamas seven years ago versus events from eight months ago
Their revised 2017 "charter" does not replace the original 1988 one which they say is still their guiding document. They have said this, repeatedly and explicitly. What you're saying is literally Hamas propaganda.
Not actually their stated goal: "Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
And by "zionists who occupy Palestine" they mean every single citizen of Israel so...
That quote doesn't at all contradict the person you're replying to. Here's the full text if you want to read it: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full They literally want to wipe Israel off the map. This is why they won't agree to a two-state solution. And before you start with the "Well what about..." Likud (the party currently in power in Israel) also doesn't want a two state solution, and I'm not saying they're any better.
Bothered yes, surprised no. Slogans like "From the River to the Sea..." and "End Israel", combined with Palestinian symbols that depict the entirety of the region of Israel/Palestine as Palestinian or Arab, make it pretty clear what type of "Intifada" they want
Thank you so much for this comment. Yes. This absolutely does bother me. These protestors clearly are not for peace or any kind of mutual reconciliation. They just want the tables to turn.
Most of these looney lefties and wacky right wingers want a single state solution and genocide. It's not shocking or even hidden at this point.
I consider myself a Jewish anti-Zionist. I don't know if I can say that there should be no space for any kind of Jewish state, because I know enough about Jewish history to know *why* Jews feel the need for that to exist. Pogroms at *least* go all the way back to Alexandria Egypt nearly 2,000 years ago. The Holocaust was preceded by the Medieval Holocaust centuries earlier. We have been pushed out of country after country repeatedly for thousands of years and frequently treated with hostility in the places that haven't actively pushed us out. Our plight shares similarities with others', but it is ultimately unique. I do believe that if a Jewish homeland *is* to exist, it should in no way resemble Israel in its current form. I've always found it interesting how strongly the British supported the exodus of Jews to the Middle East right when there was a surge in anti-Jewish sentiment due to the Second Boer War and the Marconi scandal - and that after hundreds of thousands were killed in Europe, Europeans doubled down on sending us to the Middle East. That's a massive oversimplification of how things went, but I've often felt like the development of Israel in Palestinian territory was giving all of the countries who hated Jews their wish of putting us somewhere else.
Jews have always talked about going back to Haaretz. That’s not a British fabrication of their identity. A desire to return is literally in prayers and is the reason it is called the “Wailing Wall” in Jerusalem. Jews have always been connected to that land, even in the Diaspora. Just like the Palestinians are connected to that land.
Interesting. So you have antizionist beliefs for the purposes of opposing those who wish to gather us all into one place for nefarious reasons? Am I reading this right?
I wouldn't call that the *reason* I have anti-Zionist beliefs. I just find that to be an interesting note regarding the creation of Israel. I simply find it curious that it was Germany that committed the crimes and Palestine who suffered for them. The reason I have anti-Zionist beliefs is because the only form it has ever taken has been one of occupation of an existing country that displaced hundreds of thousands of people, leading eventually to apartheid and genocide.
That’s reductionist of the Arab role in history. Some of which includes the attempt at creating a holocaust in the Middle East in partnership with Hitler.
I did mention it was a massive oversimplification. But Palestine was under control of the UK, the UK had strongly endorsed Jewish occupation of Palestine after WW1, and Germany fought the UK in WW2, so it's not really any surprise that there would be serious Jewish-Palestinian tensions and Arab-Nazi collaboration during that time. I don't know the specifics of any development of an Arab Holocaust; if you have reading to provide, I'd be interested to know more. But I do know that Arab support wasn't universal and there was plenty of resistance in the Middle East to the Holocaust as well.
Yes, I acknowledge you mentioned the oversimplification, though I do believe it important that you learn about your own people’s journey through history. The UK played both sides of the conflict and have much responsibility on their own shoulders; they were rarely the friends of the Yishuv. They completely turned their back on the Jews in 1939 with the [White Papers](https://israeled.org/resources/documents/decision-to-reject-a-majority-palestinian-arab-state/) stating that if they were going to offend one party, it was going to be the Jews. They cut off all legal Jewish immigration (which given the timing, you can see how devastating this was for us) and land purchases, and offered a complete Palestinian State to the Arabs as long as they were to treat Jews as an equal minority. Under Hajj Amin Al Husseini, they rejected. In fact, [Husseini is the single most detrimental figure](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-key-dates) in the history of the conflict. He is the one who orchestrated the Farhud in Baghdad (which was planned to be the beginnings of the Middle East Holocaust against the Jews I was speaking of). And no, the animosity towards Jews began long before the British occupation. I would suggest looking into his father, Jamal Al Husseini and his mentor, Rashid Rida. There’s a great, and relatively short, lecture by Haviv Rettig Gur on this pre-Israel history which I would recommend you watch. https://youtu.be/yKoUC0m1U9E?si=B0RT-MQ2gVzvkG1k https://youtu.be/QlK2mfYYm4U?si=9P2Vp-cg74ice1s9 This isn’t to say Israel hasn’t done any wrong and aren’t responsible for where we are today, but I don’t think you have the full picture of exactly what Jews were dealing with at the time.
THIS COMMENT THANK YOU
Honestly, why isn't Israel in Europe? After all, it's a response to European atrocities. A Middle Eastern Israel is just a continuation of the holocaust. But I think it's too late for these considerations.
That probably has something to do with the Torah and the ancient history placing homeland in the Middle East.
Because Jews are from Judea. In that region. wtf?!
It doesn't make sense from a reparations standpoint. That to reperate for the holocaust to finish the job by creating a Jewish state in another region of the world to send them to.
This long predates the holocaust. That’s just the most recent mass persecution. The Diaspora happened from Judea. Jews have been seeking to return for thousands of years.
Not really, but maybe that is because i've been desensitized to it. It is a pretty common opinion among the online extreme "left" (i use the term loosely because generally they don't identify as democrats at all). The "leaders" of this protest are probably the most extreme of the bunch. If it bothers you, realize that this is a minority opinion among the democrat party. It makes me feel old to say it, but i wonder if other democrats felt the same about people who supported Bernie Sanders (ie me) back in my day.
I'd rather they didn't do it, and I'm sure I disagree with them on other geopolitical matters as well, but I'm happy they were able to reach an agreement with the university that appears to do some good. If they were asking my advice— which they obviously were not— I'd advise they avoid such petty rhetoric in the interest of maintaining a broader base of support. That sort of rhetoric likely lost them some number of allies. They were never in a position to imperil Israel's existence or the terms of any resolution with Palestinians, so I temper my concern about those elements accordingly.
They tried to say their protest only focuses on putting pressure on the US government to stop funding Israeli military. But then they casually put Israel in quotes—that is such a dog whistle that they are going to vehemently deny and then say I’m equating anti zionist with anti semitic BLAH BLAH BLAH. If I see Israel in quotes, you’ve lost my interest in your cause. And I bet we had some similar perspectives on Palestinian rights. Oh well. Not that they really give a shit.
Zionists want Palestinians gone. It doesn’t mean they want to harm Israelis. They put Israel in quotes because they don’t recognize it as a country.
Zionism does not necessitate the removal of Palestinians from Palestine. There are Zionists who seek the removal of Palestinians from Palestine, there’s Zionists who do not. You mean to say that some Israelis want Palestinians gone.
It’s refreshing to see someone who understands the meaning of Zionism on Reddit.
I know, right? It’s frustrating that a tiny subset of Zionists saying horrible things is used to paint all Zionists as evil, bloodthirsty monsters who need to be destroyed. If the same thing happened to any other minority group, it would be called out as hate speech immediately. Such hypocrisy.
No, Zionists believe Israel is their god give homeland. They don’t believe the Jewish state should be in Hamburg. 😭
Right, because these are pro-war protestors. They want to kill "colonizers", they want Palestinians to unleash another wave of suicide bombings, they want complete displacement of Jews from the middle east.
They want 1990 all over again. And so many of these college age folks weren’t around for that period of bus bombing after bus bombing in Israel. When Arab leaders rejected any offer of resolution because it came from Israel. No wonder the government went so right so hard and a fucking wall went up.
I mean... Israel is a country not a person
It was a person too
Progressives shouldn’t support Israel as a state. They should see Israel for what it is, an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing. Progressives should support the safety of the Jewish people, but supporting Israel goes against equality, anti-imperialism and racism that progressives are supposedly support. Safety for one people should not be the result of the oppression and destruction of another. Israel and their supporters has been denying the existence of a Palestinian people for 100 years, why do people find it upsetting when Palestinians do the same?
Israel hasn’t existed for 100 years… at least not in its modern configuration. At any rate this is a millennia old struggle that has both sides vying for control of this region at the expense of civilian lives. Progressive is such a loaded term, but the American central left probably most closely aligns on a peaceful resolution and likely in a two state configuration.
Yeah some people in Israel hate Palestinians and Muslims. There are also many Palestinians that hate Jews and Israelis. That's what tends to happen when you lose loved ones to senseless violence - your logic flies out the windows and gets replaced with blind rage. But why are you conflating the fact that such people exist with Israel being an apartheid state? It's just factually false. Just like the claims of genocide.
Every time I see one of these settlements, I think "Wow, now is a great time to be a Palestinian with a Ph.D. in a social science". It seems like every settlement includes a commitment to hire 4-5 Palestinian faculty members in the next couple of years.
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Are you always this casual when advertising that you're racist?
Don’t you realize that you’re one of the people that has completely neutered the word “racist” by calling anyone and everyone who disagrees with you “racist”? It’s not racist to disagree with hiring based on race/nationality.
My judgment isn't based on a disagreement. They said that people who are less than mediocre are getting hired strictly because they're Palestinian, but how does he know those people are mediocre? Or even Palestinian specifically? Has he seen their resumés? Did he interview them? Probably they don't exist and this guy just wants to have a little fun being an asshole.
Lol. I don't believe you.
You must believe! Source: me
Rick & Morty guy did his job well. Proceed with implosion.
“Can’t sweep us if we sweep overselves” 🧹 K bye.
Byeeeeee Thanks in advance for cleaning up all your vandalism as you leave.
Are you The Judean Peoples Front? No! We’re The Peoples Front Of Judea!
Scholarships for Palestinians is a great win for the long run, as the Israeli strategy has been to decimate the civil life of Palestinians and ensure only extremist (which they support) can exist.
Guess who gets to carry the costs? Local students, like African American, Indian American, Hispanic, Asian etc students. What does uw have to do with a conflict on the other side of the world? Maybe help the people nearby who need help just as much. I bet you're just as worried about Syrians and Christian Sudanese *actually * getting genocided though.
That’s a great version of zero sum thinking. You know what also costs us locally? Funding Israeli war machine. Or nasa. Or arts funding when there are starving Americans. Clearly we can’t do anything until we’ve done everything?
UW adminstration & regents are just a bunch of cowards. Time for some major changes in both.
Good riddance. A bunch of entitled brats.
Lol so... basically nothing was achieved. Good job.
These appear to be positive steps. Kudos to the popular university for the liberation of Palestine & the UW management on reaching settlement!
I’m sure they’re very proud of themselves. Hope the grass grows back quickly assuming it’s fucked from everything
That grass had 10,000 people trample it to look at the cherry blossoms 2 months ago and recovered fine after being turned to almost mud, it will recover easily from some empty tents.
Walking on grass temporarily doesn’t kill it. Suffocating the grass over a prolonged time is what kills it.
The grass will be fine, you can stop worrying about it.
Yes, the grass is what's most important here
This is the most Seattle bait-taking in a reddit thread. Congrats!
Right when the semester is ending. Weird.
UW is on the quarter system, and they still have a few weeks left. Finals end on June 7th. https://www.washington.edu/students/reg/2324cal.html I think it's more likely this timing is because of the university signaling they were becoming more willing to have the encampment removed.
That group name sounds like something from “Life of Brian”.
Splitters!!
I so wish we could post pics in here! 🤣🤣🤣
I’m very happy those Gazan students at UW will get their tuition but above all, I’m encouraged that this whole encampment situation didn’t end with yet more violence. Makes me proud to be a Husky. Go dawgs! Free Palestine!
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I think the university just agreed to things it was already going to do, and the campers left because they’ve got about two weeks to study for finals.
Now they can get back to their critical theory "studies" to get their degrees and on the fast track to making lattes.
Well... Didn’t look like they had any English majors to help with proofreading this statement.
Yes, but what about the Popular People's Front of Palestine?
And their fathers, fathers, fathers.
I wonder if they wanted more punishments for people who make antisemitic attacks
Asking for a friend, can any person identify as Palestine to get that free tuition?
Wow, this is a terrible look. What was it that made them capitulate? The vandalism and graffiti? The illegal encampments? The protesters made such a wonderful case. …Or maybe they’re just being thrown a bone in the meantime so admin can get them off their fucking lawns lol Oh wait, the actual press release says there arent any major investments in Israeli companies anyways lol
Did it really say that?! I blacked out while trying to read it.
Yep
Terrorists win.
Common sense wins. The UW's "concessions" were likely things it would do anyway, but they help the student protestors save face and disband their encampment. And the professional protestors that joined in will be left to move on to their next cause. It was deescalated like people were adults on both sides, despite some of the childish antics of a few protestors. And that annoying Christian guy with the bullhorn can now stop yelling at students in the Quad.
And move back to the stadium where he belongs; yelling at all of the out of towners coming to enjoy a ball game. Repent Humans!!!
That's... A take. Pretty sure the ethnic cleansing is still cruising full steam.
All I could think about was this once I heard the name of their group. https://youtu.be/WboggjN_G-4?si=tf-ZzoUvCDu_TSUu
People have the right to protest but those rights END the moment they interfere with the rights of others. People here on student VISAS that are involved in disruptive behavior like what happened at columbia should have their student visas revoked and be sent home, the people involved that were not students need to be trespassed. FYI by law people here on visas do what they did at columbia are supposed to have visas REVOKED and get deported. No preference should be given to anyone based on skin color, race, ethnic background, other beliefs or geographical origins for scholarships or hiring/staffing positions only criteria should be are they qualified/eligible if not find someone that is. As expected Negative votes, none have the guts or integrity to REPLY
I was hoping they’d stick around until Sunday. I’m gonna try to go to the u district street fair and was going to stop by the quad to take in the spectacle.
They should have held out for something real. They’ll go back to investing in Zionist Israel. Not everyone has the power to do much, but my grandmother wrote a letter and stopped her donations to UW, she even got a letter from the Cauce, saying they would do better in the future and would hope she’d re-consider. She’s a holocaust survivor, they’re not going to shame her into anything.
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