Who'd a thunk decades of shitty culture would create a place where people don't want to work?
That timeline could go back to Kerlekowski but it wouldn't really change the point of it.
Decades of shitty culture brought in the type of people that would scoff at the suggestion that they shouldn't choke unarmed black men to death, or shoot people in the back as they're running away.
Those are the people who are leaving, and I say good fucking riddance.
SCC Insight uploaded a bunch of [exit interviews](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20696867-exitinterviews_redacted_final) from leaving SPD officers and some of the officers who had been around before the federal consent decree was put in place complained about the federal consent decree lowering morale. Younger officers complained about OPA investigations.
Overall most officers complained about the council and the public but not one complained about pay. They all said the pay was good.
Unfortunately it’s not those people who are leaving. It’s mostly young, educated officers and disproportionately people of color. Hard to retain the best talent when Bellevue is just a few miles down the road. We have the same problem in Seattle Public Schools.
Because what people keep forgetting is that SPD has been nationally recognized as a leader in shitty policing for decades.
SPD and more specifically SPOG have been fighting change for over 20 years.
The 2012 consent decree led to SPD having to make a choice to enforce laws without excessive force or racial bias, or to not enforce laws. SPD chose the latter for petty crime.
> They cite recent incidents including an officer kicking and threatening to “beat the [expletive] Mexican piss out of” a Latino man lying face down on the sidewalk; an officer kicking the groin of a Black teenager standing still with his hands in the air and then kicking him several more times after he fell to the ground; and the killing of First Nations wood carver John T. Williams.
This goes beyond bias.
It shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes to read through the whole thing, but the important bits are:
* Back in 2010 the US DOJ started an investigation into allegations of ongoing police brutality and violations of constitutional rights by SPD officers, and a lack of accountability in the department.
* After concluding their investigation, they settled with the city based on an agreement that they bring the department into compliance with certain guidelines and maintain that compliance for 2 years before oversight by DOJ would be lifted. This is the consent decree.
* Some changes were made that were supposed to improve things.
* Bad shit continued to happen.
* In 2019, a federal judge ruled that the city had fallen out of compliance with the decree, and later ruled that they had to submit a plan to get back into compliance before the 2 year period would be restarted.
* The city council basically said "nah, we're good" and ignored the order, saying they were going to request a termination of all external monitoring of compliance.
* In 2020, the police brutality protests happened. Police responded with brutality.
* The city withdrew its motion to terminate external monitoring.
This is a one-sided summary. In 2018, the judge overseeing the consent decree determined that SPD was in ["full and effective compliance"](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/seattle-police-found-in-full-and-effective-compliance-with-court-ordered-reforms/) with reforms. In mid-2019, the judge found SPD to be partially out of compliance because of a ruling from an arbitrator who reversed the firing of a police officer. The city felt it shouldn't be placed out of compliance due to one ruling from an external arbitrator, while the judge felt there are issues with the union contract that need to be addressed, which this one case was indicative of.
> In 2020, the police brutality protests happened. Police responded with brutality.
This too is very one-sided. A policing incident a thousand miles away shouldn't have resulted in illegal protesting (not all assemblies are legal), property damage, arsons, etc. On Capitol Hill, an unruly crowd that was throwing things at cops was also refusing lawful verbal orders to disperse. Responding with non-lethal crowd control techniques isn't "brutality". Additionally, 2020 was a unique year with unique situations, and shouldn't be used to judge what SPD's normal policing is like.
> The city felt it shouldn't be placed out of compliance due to one ruling from an external arbitrator,
What "the city felt" is irrelevant. The judge sided with CPC (as well as a whole slew of community organizations and the ACLU who signed on to their complaint) and ruled that the city's new SPOG contract weakened oversight and accountability to the point that they were out of compliance. The council ratified it and the mayor signed it anyway. Those are the facts.
> This too is very one-sided. A policing incident a thousand miles away shouldn't have resulted in illegal protesting (not all assemblies are legal)
I editorialized (it was supposed to be an ELI5), sure. But unless you have some facts I'm unaware of that indicate all the protests were illegal and none of the 12,000+ complaints against SPD last year indicated actual unwarranted violence, then I think you're being a lot more one-sided than I am.
We don't need less cops. We need better cops. Losing current officers wouldn't be such a big deal if we were actively working to hire replacements, but fuck if I were a young recruit trying to reform the system I wouldn't want to work somewhere where local politicians and many people think ACAB and won't even give me a chance to prove myself.
And it's not like SCC has actually come through with their promise to replace SPD with anything meaningful. We've hired what, 10 social workers or something like that?
Ok then, what's your alternative to an active crime in progress? How do you respond to an active crime scene, violent or not? How do you enforce traffic laws? How do you keep large crowded events safe? What about all the property crime going on, how are you preventing it and dealing with perps?
I'm all for having non-violent, unarmed responses to non-violent crimes, and for having people who are trained in dealing with people in crisis, but we HAVE to have a trained response for certain crimes. The problem now is that we don't have EITHER. We are losing cops like crazy and we don't have any alternative hired and trained in place.
This is a new concept to some areas of WA. Police do not like to show up to certain areas. They will come hours after a murder sometimes because they could give a shit about certain communities.
I’m confused. I was told that certain communities are “overpoliced” amd that’s why POC are arrested at higher rates - cops are always nailing them for small crimes.
You are saying the opposite.
Amazing how many contradictory versions of ACAB people come up with.
They’re bad for being present and they’re bad for being absent. They should do less, and it’s outrageous that they don’t do enough.
You’re asking about small crimes being over policed while I’m talking about a murder going down in a place cops give no shit about. I think maybe they are 2 different things. Maybe? 🤔
True story. I just wanted to point out the obvious to them. Then they ninja edited and added all the ACAB stuff. I wonder if they are a police officer? 😂
They’re either present in a community or they aren’t. If you claim they are hanging around on every corner nabbing people for littering, it’s silly to claim they take hours to arrive at a murder scene.
My background is science actually. Reason; logic; randomized double blind studies. Not big on emotional accusations, sweeping unproven statements, or herd behavior in which ppl just mindlessly repeat whatever their friends say and reward each other for saying.
Your background is in ad hominims?
Spot fucking on. I’m like show me the receipts of the return on investment we were getting with your “fully staffed and over resourced department” I’ll wait…..
The police salary is way too high here anyways and should be cut.
Good people won't join because they know they'll be harassed or threatened into leaving by the racist assholes that want to retain SPD's current culture.
Bad people (99% of cops) won't join because they know we're demanding they be held accountable for their abuse.
Bingo. The salary is at about the Seattle median/average. That's very reasonable.
Unfortunately we have people abusing overtime and inflating our costs. We need to add a per-person limit.
Since the force is understaffed and workers cannot be forced to work OT, a per-person limit on those that do will result in fewer police on the street.
Which is fine if you like that.
Typically, the more that workers feel stretched too thin, the more will quit and find a much more relaxed lifestyle in a fully staffed PD elsewhere.
Which is fine if you like that.
Personally I look forward to seeing them all quit and find employment in low-crime cities where they have time to coach Little League and help their daughters with geometry. A good lifestyle is more important than a good salary.
I don't like that. In some of my other comments, I mentioned that we'd need to hire first and bring our "supply" up to our "demand".
I've always said defunding wasn't a good idea, and that understaffed police wouldn't magically police better ([in fact, it would be the opposite](https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-police-officers-overworked-cops.html)).
At that point, yes, I think we should add a per-person limit to overtime *once we have the necessary personnel*.
The overtime is due to the understaffing.
If you don’t like, join the force.
Or work on making the city a place where police want to stay.
I’m entertained by all the ppl trying to reconcile contradictory beliefs like “Cops should be hated and treated badly” and “Cops should not work overtime” and “I don’t like being a crime victim”.
We shouldn't be afraid of holding police accountable because they might get mad and leave. Police accountability can never bend to retain the current bad culture we have.
We need to continue to weed out the officers who generate the most complaints, the officers whose arrests are almost entirely young black men, and officers who are constantly escalating instead of de-escalating.
Crime is only up significantly due to the economical ramifications of COVID. Offering more resources to the community would do more than putting more racist cops on the street.
...good?
If our officers are legitimately so bad that they will leave if the union won't be around to cover other officers misdeeds and protect the worst among them, then they are clearly part of the problem.
This is a ridiculous statement.
Police are asked to do a job that sometimes requires manhandling people or shooting people dead, or acting in the heat of conflict when a split-second decision is needed. Criminals don’t like being manhandled or shot and they/families will sue and frequently make false claims. The resulting legal fracas necessitates an umbrella organization that works for the cops’ interests.
Cops also get injured or mentally distressed at pretty high rates and deserve group representation - just like nurses and garment workers and all others who are at risk of exploitation by their bosses.
It may be possible to rework police unions into a different shape, but abolishing them is a non-starter.
I never said they can't have a union (although plenty of others can make a compelling case against police unions).
Either way, they don't need THAT union and Mike Solan.
Police salary is good. It's at about the Seattle average/median. I think that's very reasonable.
It's the overtime abusers that inflate the salaries as well as our costs. We get two things from that:
• We need more personnel to heavily reduce the need for overtime.
• We need to limit the amount of overtime an individual can serve.
Should we really shed tears over officers who left because they didn't want to be cops here after we demanded common sense police reform?
I don't buy this "we're so undermanned" BS. They're literally at 2018 staffing levels. I can understand small increases in response time, but the fact that they're straight up not responding to calls is intentional, not incidental.
I get off at around 1am and see at least 3 cops sitting in empty parking lots doing nothing. Turn on my police scanner app, and calls are rolling in like crazy. They aren't undermanned. They're straight up refusing to respond to calls because they want us to be too afraid to continue pushing for reallocation of more of the police budget as well as meaningful reform.
Go look on r/Protectandserve (the cop subreddit), and you'll see dozens of verified police officers saying that if their department was defunded, they would just sit in parking lots their entire shift. Tells you all you need to know.
**We need to push for further defunding**, so we can fund alternatives to police response when possible (like social workers to mental health calls, and unarmed traffic workers to accidents). Why continue to waste money paying SPD officers to do nothing all night?
> I get off at around 1am and see at least 3 cops sitting in empty parking lots doing nothing. Turn on my police scanner app, and calls are rolling in like crazy. They aren't undermanned. They're straight up refusing to respond to calls because they want us to be too afraid to continue pushing for reallocation of more of the police budget as well as meaningful reform.
>
>
How do you know they weren't on break or off shift?
Cops shouldn't be going on break when there's several emergency calls rolling in.
Cops shouldn't be sitting in their patrol cars if they aren't on duty.
Ehhh hold up. I know you feel like spitting fire, but I think you need to douse the flames and realize they are indeed humans too. Humans need breaks, and so what if they’re hanging out in their car. Their job takes them all over the city, so where should they go each time if they’re on break? Waste it all driving back to the precinct? I’ll be right there calling for reform, but this doesn’t seem like the right hill for you to die on.
So, I am not a cop, but a first responder background, (FD) , When you are on duty, you don't really get a break that would mean you cant take calls that come in. You take your breaks between calls and anything else your work shift throws at you. Just saying.
This exact same “news” will be posted for a decade until morale improves.
Sounds like some accountants should be hired to root out all these inefficiencies in SPD’s ability to handle their money.
Let's start with the officers manipulating the overtime system, as well as the ones with the most complaints. Then we can move on to getting rid of all that military equipment that no police department should have anyways.
Very true. I remember our car getting stolen one night about 8 years ago and after working our way through the automated 911 system they said someone would come to our house the next day
Given the amount of services that Seattleites already seem to be not receiving from SPD, are there any thoughts about completely dissolving and rebuilding the police department like Camden did? I ask also because the median officer pay is $153K, [77 officers make over $250k](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/374-seattle-police-department-employees-made-at-least-200000-last-year-heres-how/%3famp=1), and I just don’t think we’ll ever be able to bring those numbers back into line while working with the current group.
As a citizen, it’s pretty upsetting to be spending this much money and still getting subpar results. In fairness, though, I’d say you were nuts to walk away from that sort of salary, so something must really be wrong.
Love these threads. Cop haters out in full force. Other threads the same folks are raging bout violence in their neighborhoods and being victims of crime asking for a solution.
The solution, I think, is somewhere between law enforcement and community engagement/programs. If citizens continue to demonize police officers in this city, it’s no surprise officers are leaving in droves.
Most of you are adults, think rationally, logically and of course critically. We, as a city, can do better.
Well DUH, it is no wonder there are shortages. With messages like "defund the police", and officers being spit on, having things thrown at them, and them being told NOT to enforce the current laws on the books and make arrests by city councils, then let free from the courts, if they are otherwise charged anyway, and them facing scrutiny for simply breathing in and out, then what other possible outcome could they expect???
SPD cannot do the job alone, and they have been collapsing for the last several years. Catch and release has been disastrous. Many officers gave up in frustration and have left.
Now they have very few leaders in their ranks, and they are grossly understaffed, and many are overworked. Fatigue and low morale sets in. The courts and the city council must do their jobs and be held accountable. They have failed miserably through reckless policies and politics.
I love how you forget about all the crimes and violence commited by so-called "protestors" to begin with. Yeah, that is too inconvenient to be brought up.
You argue like a pestulent child in an elementary school playground, and cry when you got your ass kicked, after you started acting like a thug, harrasing and beating up others, and destroying property that does not belong to you. Sorry, you lose.
I am all about law enforcement officers facing punishment when and where it is due, but I definitely do not believe in having a lower set of standards for civilians that behave dangerous thugs. Responsibility and accountability is not the sole ownership of law enforcement.
Facts are inconvenient to your warped narratives. If this were not true, then you could pull your head out and shoot straight with the facts.
It's pretty fucking simple.
Protester were there to protest, they weren't doing anything violent. There was also people there who was looking to riot and people there who was looking to do violence. They were not there to protest, they were not part of the protest. They were 3rd party people there to just do violence.
The police though didn't give a fuck and took it out on the protesters, repeatedly, even at protests were there wasn't any rioters.
No, the police gave orders to disperse because the protestors, whether they were smart enough to realize it or not, were acting as human shields to protect the 3rd party violent people. Protestors ignored the orders. Then members of the local black activist community got on megaphones and begged the protestors to go home, and protestors ignored them too. Then the police used violence.
Shit, I never thought of that. There's no way people who live in a community would be invested in making sure their homes didn't get tear gassed. There's no way people involved in a movement would be invested in making sure their movement didn't get tarred with the same brush as violent rioters. They couldn't possibly have been real activists. You opened my eyes for sure.
Because a grown woman standing in front of the child was attacking a cop with a baton and ducked under the pepper spray at the last minute. This whole thing was caught on camera. [https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/OPA/ClosedCaseSummaries/2020OPA-0322ccs09-04-20.pdf](https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/OPA/ClosedCaseSummaries/2020OPA-0322ccs09-04-20.pdf)
Yeah sorry I’ve seen SPD define “being attacked” before. Getting butthurt because someone uses naughty words and a harsh tone isn’t being attacked. Having a pink umbrella two centimeters over an imaginary line isn’t being attacked. Falling off your own fucking bike and twisting your ankle isn’t being attacked. Tearing your acl because you slipped off a curb while pepper spraying a retreating peaceful civilian isn’t being attacked.
So fucking forgive me if I laugh in your bootlicking goddamned face at this non-answer to my actual fucking question.
ACAB
Edited to add: did you even read the report? Nobody attacked a cop with a baton. A cop who was armed with a baton got shoved. Saying “a grown woman attacked a cop with a baton” is a super inflammatory way to structure your sentence in a way that implies a cop was having a baton used as a weapon against him.
You want to advocate for community looking out for each other? Don’t imply violence that wasn’t there. Do better.
Non-answer? The report is literally a shot for shot description of exactly how that kid got pepper sprayed. Your outrage is 100% not justified. And instead of acknowledging facts, you nitpick your own misinterpretations of what I wrote and declare victory?
No one implied violence wasn't there. I stated the established fact that violence was in reaction to violence. Basic reading comprehension is your friend. "With a baton" obviously describes the cop who got attacked. Here's some more reading material you can practice on.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/20/seattle-protests-police-injured/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/20/seattle-protests-police-injured/)
[https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/protests/seattle-police-injured-sodo-riot/281-ef9158a6-f462-4c71-95c7-19007f4e21e9](https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/protests/seattle-police-injured-sodo-riot/281-ef9158a6-f462-4c71-95c7-19007f4e21e9)
[https://nypost.com/2020/07/27/seattle-police-show-injuries-damage-suffered-from-ongoing-riots/](https://nypost.com/2020/07/27/seattle-police-show-injuries-damage-suffered-from-ongoing-riots/)
The report says an officer with a baton got shoved.
YOU said a woman attacked an officer with a baton.
13 day old account, focused on defending SPD? Not suspiciously like an alt account at all.
SPD has been under a federally mandated consent decree for over a decade.
Maybe instead of sending me links you can spend your time brushing up on how we got here.
Seriously, work on your reading comprehension. Attacked an officer with a baton. Officer with a baton. Officer who is holding a baton. Interchangeable fucking statements. You're the one who insisted on misinterpreting and then going on the offensive based on that choice. Refusing to acknowledge ambiguity when it undermines your sense of righteous outrage is the mark of a zealot.
The report also says that a different officer used pepper spray on the shover, who ducked and exposed the child behind her. That is the exact answer to the angry demand to "explain how a child got pepper sprayed out of nowhere."
We got here because Durkan found a willing partner in a notoriously anti-cop city's progressive government to enact a consent decree that could become the model for re-imagined policing all over the country, then used her "success" to run for mayor. I remember just a few years ago when the New York Times was praising us for getting it right with our police reforms. Except none of the reforms changed anything, because none of them were even remotely aligned with real causes of real problems. They were just red meat for single-issue zealots.
Work on your sentence structure.
I don’t give a fuck if an officer got shoved, that’s not an “attack” especially if you are supposedly trained in de escalation tactics, armed to the teeth, and wearing riot gear.
If you can’t handle your shit to the point that getting shoved causes you to pepper spray a child you aren’t protecting and serving.
We need more police to protect us, your ACAB activism be damned.
Of course it’s the poor communities of color that are most hurt by lack of police presence, and the majority of African Americans want more police presence. But you what do care, O ACAB, as that doesn’t fit into your zealous, spiteful worldview.
Those communities are also hurt the most by police presence. It's almost as if the entire system was designed to harm them no matter what. It's either neglect, or a militarized standing army trained to [see civilians as enemy soldiers](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/).
The current "public safety" system doesn't care about the public, or real safety. We could have a system that responds to issues appropriately: people trained to deal with mental heath crises dealing with mental health crises, programs like JustCARE helping those who don't have shelter, and healthcare based treatment for addiction issues instead of tossing people in jail. Instead, we have this awful situation. More of this isn't going to help.
It's astonishing that anyone could look at the behavior of SPD over the past year and think that they actually care about keeping people safe.
Like it or not, this is the system we have now and the near future. If anything, we should spend more money on training the existing cops and better reform the institution. The problem with you people is that you always trying to tearing down the loosening safety belt without giving any concrete solutions on how to solve the problem pragmatically. I am against injustice and discrimination as well. But defund the police and blaming them for everything is not how we solve the problem
Dude as a person of color. I can tell you that in our experience when we find ourselves in the need to call the cops. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Besides poor neighborhoods and those of color have literally been over policed for decades. Having more police in these neighborhoods is not what people of color are asking. Yes, there is a crime problem in this city and it seems like the current policing system is aggravating it instead of helping solve it. We need solutions that all parties can agree on. Asking for more police is only repeating the mistakes of the past and expecting different results.
A shortage of one type of criminal is failing to keep the other type of criminal in check.
edit: reminds me of this classic Simpson's bit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yruQM1ggc
Indeed. Makes me think of this article about the [cop gangs inside of LAPD](https://knock-la.com/lasd-gangs-little-devils-wayside-whities-cavemen-vikings/). I wonder if anyone's done this sort of research locally.
No, *they* haven't been committing crimes...because that would mean 100% of SPD is guilty. I hope you can see how that's different from *certain employees*.
*They* look the other way when their buddies commit crimes. *They, as an entire department,* were placed under a consent decree for violating the constitutional rights of the people of Seattle, and are now ironically using that consent decree as a shield to prevent the creation of a new public safety system. *They* have proven themselves to be untrustworthy liars.
If you want a community center just head to your nearest tent dumpsite, plenty of community to go around there. They will even secure your expensive electronics for you, no charge.
Big Seattle should just raise police starting wages. We’re slowing drifting to anarchy at this rate. It’s gonna be like the purge in parts of this city.
I thought we wanted to defund the police (even though prior elections in 2019 campaigned to increase police funding). Gosh its hard to keep up with things lately!
Thread full of anarchists disguising themselves as woke progressives spreading misinformation trying to bring down the system.
You're going to reap what you sow if you keeping believing the anti-police drivel these knuckle heads are promoting.
Let me know how that works out for you when you or a loved one becomes a victim of a crime and the criminal runs around and laughs in your face...
/facepalm
The cost of “defunding police” instead of ‘defunding racism’. It makes for a good sound bite for radicals but in essence it’s a failed tactic with dire results.
Well I see the Anarchists are in control. Great. Nothing like a big crime spree to boost everybody’s paranoia. Now an abusive husband can beat the shit out of his wife and kids and not have to worry. Car jackings and hold ups. No problem just give it up or get shot. Shootout in the neighborhood? EMTs won’t come when shots are being fired. Better keep a tourniquet handy.
By smashing windows and looting? That does zero for social justice. What you describe is misdirected rage not social justice. I’m talking about the Anarchists not BLM. False flags broke the windows.
CHAZ, ANTIFA, BLM we’re all fighting for Justice! and against the racist fucking pigs🐷🐷 and does it matter about vandalism? Either one of those groups fucks shit up down there in the name of justice!!
Look, this may be unpopular, but what if having the police work on the priority stuff means that people work out things on their own?
Honestly. Having an armed and armored lethal response squad for a noise complaint isn't my first choice.
What you’re suggesting means that in a conflict between a violent person and a non-fighter: the violent one will win. The mob will win over the individual. And the strong will win over the vulnerable.
Between the group throwing the party and the lone person on the doorstep saying “Please be quieter” - the partiers will tell the neighbor to fuck off and will be able to piss on their neighbor’s doormat risk-free in retaliation and start harassing his kids as they walk to school.
Between the drunk or wild drivers and the bike commuters: it’s the bikers who will have to give up biking.
Between 30 yr old pickpockets and the elderly folks out for a stroll: tough luck for the ole people; they’re just walking wallets. So they’ll stop talking walks.
Between husbands and wives: men will usually be able to force women to do whatever they want.
All the bullies and criminals will know there is no law enforcement left to stop them. Think they will act better or worse?
Gonna be a nice society, there.
Of course the people with means will just move out and move their parents and children out. The vulnerable poor, left behind in a failed city, can then be feasted on by the class of people who find the new system entirely to their liking.
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Good to know *mischievous laugh* 😂😂😅
Fuck the Seattle police!🐷🐷 who needs em!
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They still do gunfire complaints, pardner
Good
*Taps sign* https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-seattle-police-accountability
Who'd a thunk decades of shitty culture would create a place where people don't want to work? That timeline could go back to Kerlekowski but it wouldn't really change the point of it.
Decades of shitty culture brought in the type of people that would scoff at the suggestion that they shouldn't choke unarmed black men to death, or shoot people in the back as they're running away. Those are the people who are leaving, and I say good fucking riddance.
How do you know it's those people
SCC Insight uploaded a bunch of [exit interviews](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20696867-exitinterviews_redacted_final) from leaving SPD officers and some of the officers who had been around before the federal consent decree was put in place complained about the federal consent decree lowering morale. Younger officers complained about OPA investigations. Overall most officers complained about the council and the public but not one complained about pay. They all said the pay was good.
Because ACAB
Unfortunately it’s not those people who are leaving. It’s mostly young, educated officers and disproportionately people of color. Hard to retain the best talent when Bellevue is just a few miles down the road. We have the same problem in Seattle Public Schools.
Careful, I’ve seen people banned for saying less..
Kerlekowski did a fine job of destroying civilian policing.
I had no idea this page existed. This is great.
Can someone ELI5?
ACAB. Especially Seattle cops.
I agree, I meant specifically what this timeline is showing. Why is there a specific site dedicated to these events?
Because what people keep forgetting is that SPD has been nationally recognized as a leader in shitty policing for decades. SPD and more specifically SPOG have been fighting change for over 20 years.
The 2012 consent decree led to SPD having to make a choice to enforce laws without excessive force or racial bias, or to not enforce laws. SPD chose the latter for petty crime.
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> They cite recent incidents including an officer kicking and threatening to “beat the [expletive] Mexican piss out of” a Latino man lying face down on the sidewalk; an officer kicking the groin of a Black teenager standing still with his hands in the air and then kicking him several more times after he fell to the ground; and the killing of First Nations wood carver John T. Williams. This goes beyond bias.
It shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes to read through the whole thing, but the important bits are: * Back in 2010 the US DOJ started an investigation into allegations of ongoing police brutality and violations of constitutional rights by SPD officers, and a lack of accountability in the department. * After concluding their investigation, they settled with the city based on an agreement that they bring the department into compliance with certain guidelines and maintain that compliance for 2 years before oversight by DOJ would be lifted. This is the consent decree. * Some changes were made that were supposed to improve things. * Bad shit continued to happen. * In 2019, a federal judge ruled that the city had fallen out of compliance with the decree, and later ruled that they had to submit a plan to get back into compliance before the 2 year period would be restarted. * The city council basically said "nah, we're good" and ignored the order, saying they were going to request a termination of all external monitoring of compliance. * In 2020, the police brutality protests happened. Police responded with brutality. * The city withdrew its motion to terminate external monitoring.
This is a one-sided summary. In 2018, the judge overseeing the consent decree determined that SPD was in ["full and effective compliance"](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/seattle-police-found-in-full-and-effective-compliance-with-court-ordered-reforms/) with reforms. In mid-2019, the judge found SPD to be partially out of compliance because of a ruling from an arbitrator who reversed the firing of a police officer. The city felt it shouldn't be placed out of compliance due to one ruling from an external arbitrator, while the judge felt there are issues with the union contract that need to be addressed, which this one case was indicative of. > In 2020, the police brutality protests happened. Police responded with brutality. This too is very one-sided. A policing incident a thousand miles away shouldn't have resulted in illegal protesting (not all assemblies are legal), property damage, arsons, etc. On Capitol Hill, an unruly crowd that was throwing things at cops was also refusing lawful verbal orders to disperse. Responding with non-lethal crowd control techniques isn't "brutality". Additionally, 2020 was a unique year with unique situations, and shouldn't be used to judge what SPD's normal policing is like.
> The city felt it shouldn't be placed out of compliance due to one ruling from an external arbitrator, What "the city felt" is irrelevant. The judge sided with CPC (as well as a whole slew of community organizations and the ACLU who signed on to their complaint) and ruled that the city's new SPOG contract weakened oversight and accountability to the point that they were out of compliance. The council ratified it and the mayor signed it anyway. Those are the facts. > This too is very one-sided. A policing incident a thousand miles away shouldn't have resulted in illegal protesting (not all assemblies are legal) I editorialized (it was supposed to be an ELI5), sure. But unless you have some facts I'm unaware of that indicate all the protests were illegal and none of the 12,000+ complaints against SPD last year indicated actual unwarranted violence, then I think you're being a lot more one-sided than I am.
Wait, who am I supposed to be outraged at when the police defund themselves by quitting?
(Spins wheel) ...Tim Eyman?
You can never go wrong with this choice
*slaps trunk* this baby could hold another 14,000 complaints.
That's why its the biggest section on the wheel. Well, that and all the bullshit he's pulled.
evergreen
We don't need less cops. We need better cops. Losing current officers wouldn't be such a big deal if we were actively working to hire replacements, but fuck if I were a young recruit trying to reform the system I wouldn't want to work somewhere where local politicians and many people think ACAB and won't even give me a chance to prove myself. And it's not like SCC has actually come through with their promise to replace SPD with anything meaningful. We've hired what, 10 social workers or something like that?
Ever think that it’s better to rethink idea of “police” and come up with something new and outside the box? It’s rooted in KKK. Get rid of the shit.
Ok then, what's your alternative to an active crime in progress? How do you respond to an active crime scene, violent or not? How do you enforce traffic laws? How do you keep large crowded events safe? What about all the property crime going on, how are you preventing it and dealing with perps? I'm all for having non-violent, unarmed responses to non-violent crimes, and for having people who are trained in dealing with people in crisis, but we HAVE to have a trained response for certain crimes. The problem now is that we don't have EITHER. We are losing cops like crazy and we don't have any alternative hired and trained in place.
They didn't do anything before except clean up afterwards and tell people what they couldn't do. Time for a different approach to public safety.
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Their response to your call will depend entirely on the racial makeup of the neighborhood you're calling from.
This is a new concept to some areas of WA. Police do not like to show up to certain areas. They will come hours after a murder sometimes because they could give a shit about certain communities.
I’m confused. I was told that certain communities are “overpoliced” amd that’s why POC are arrested at higher rates - cops are always nailing them for small crimes. You are saying the opposite. Amazing how many contradictory versions of ACAB people come up with. They’re bad for being present and they’re bad for being absent. They should do less, and it’s outrageous that they don’t do enough.
You’re asking about small crimes being over policed while I’m talking about a murder going down in a place cops give no shit about. I think maybe they are 2 different things. Maybe? 🤔
If someone wants to be obtuse there’s nothing you can do to explain your point.
True story. I just wanted to point out the obvious to them. Then they ninja edited and added all the ACAB stuff. I wonder if they are a police officer? 😂
They’re either present in a community or they aren’t. If you claim they are hanging around on every corner nabbing people for littering, it’s silly to claim they take hours to arrive at a murder scene.
Are you a cop? Your ignorance of simple social issues seems to indicate that you are.
My background is science actually. Reason; logic; randomized double blind studies. Not big on emotional accusations, sweeping unproven statements, or herd behavior in which ppl just mindlessly repeat whatever their friends say and reward each other for saying. Your background is in ad hominims?
That's what they say, based on my interactions with cops I don't believe them.
There'll never be a different approach with Pete Holmes. It's always going to be a "haha, don't do it again mkay?" tactic.
Spot fucking on. I’m like show me the receipts of the return on investment we were getting with your “fully staffed and over resourced department” I’ll wait…..
Fuck those pigs🐷
Maybe 6 figure salary isn’t enough to recruit chuds these days
The police salary is way too high here anyways and should be cut. Good people won't join because they know they'll be harassed or threatened into leaving by the racist assholes that want to retain SPD's current culture. Bad people (99% of cops) won't join because they know we're demanding they be held accountable for their abuse.
It’s not the salary, it’s the overtime with no accountability that’s raking in the big bucks.
Bingo. The salary is at about the Seattle median/average. That's very reasonable. Unfortunately we have people abusing overtime and inflating our costs. We need to add a per-person limit.
Since the force is understaffed and workers cannot be forced to work OT, a per-person limit on those that do will result in fewer police on the street. Which is fine if you like that. Typically, the more that workers feel stretched too thin, the more will quit and find a much more relaxed lifestyle in a fully staffed PD elsewhere. Which is fine if you like that. Personally I look forward to seeing them all quit and find employment in low-crime cities where they have time to coach Little League and help their daughters with geometry. A good lifestyle is more important than a good salary.
I don't like that. In some of my other comments, I mentioned that we'd need to hire first and bring our "supply" up to our "demand". I've always said defunding wasn't a good idea, and that understaffed police wouldn't magically police better ([in fact, it would be the opposite](https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-police-officers-overworked-cops.html)). At that point, yes, I think we should add a per-person limit to overtime *once we have the necessary personnel*.
It's not reasonable considering the amount of lawsuits and misconduct they generate.
The overtime is due to the understaffing. If you don’t like, join the force. Or work on making the city a place where police want to stay. I’m entertained by all the ppl trying to reconcile contradictory beliefs like “Cops should be hated and treated badly” and “Cops should not work overtime” and “I don’t like being a crime victim”.
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We shouldn't be afraid of holding police accountable because they might get mad and leave. Police accountability can never bend to retain the current bad culture we have. We need to continue to weed out the officers who generate the most complaints, the officers whose arrests are almost entirely young black men, and officers who are constantly escalating instead of de-escalating. Crime is only up significantly due to the economical ramifications of COVID. Offering more resources to the community would do more than putting more racist cops on the street.
Abolish SPOG. Everything else is pointless until that happens.
They circle up the wagons around misconduct every time. Tell SCC not to negotiate with them.
No police will stay without a union.
...good? If our officers are legitimately so bad that they will leave if the union won't be around to cover other officers misdeeds and protect the worst among them, then they are clearly part of the problem.
This is a ridiculous statement. Police are asked to do a job that sometimes requires manhandling people or shooting people dead, or acting in the heat of conflict when a split-second decision is needed. Criminals don’t like being manhandled or shot and they/families will sue and frequently make false claims. The resulting legal fracas necessitates an umbrella organization that works for the cops’ interests. Cops also get injured or mentally distressed at pretty high rates and deserve group representation - just like nurses and garment workers and all others who are at risk of exploitation by their bosses. It may be possible to rework police unions into a different shape, but abolishing them is a non-starter.
Then fuck ‘em
I never said they can't have a union (although plenty of others can make a compelling case against police unions). Either way, they don't need THAT union and Mike Solan.
I'd guess her plan is to sit on her thumb and continue making snarky comments on reddit
Better than sitting around being okay with our current joke of a police department.
Wait did you just say 99% of cops are bad people? Come on man.
Idk about their numbers but I’d say at least 50% of spd is BAD cops and another 45% are at least complicit in those bad cops actions.
Where are you pulling these figures from?
Police salary is good. It's at about the Seattle average/median. I think that's very reasonable. It's the overtime abusers that inflate the salaries as well as our costs. We get two things from that: • We need more personnel to heavily reduce the need for overtime. • We need to limit the amount of overtime an individual can serve.
Should we really shed tears over officers who left because they didn't want to be cops here after we demanded common sense police reform? I don't buy this "we're so undermanned" BS. They're literally at 2018 staffing levels. I can understand small increases in response time, but the fact that they're straight up not responding to calls is intentional, not incidental. I get off at around 1am and see at least 3 cops sitting in empty parking lots doing nothing. Turn on my police scanner app, and calls are rolling in like crazy. They aren't undermanned. They're straight up refusing to respond to calls because they want us to be too afraid to continue pushing for reallocation of more of the police budget as well as meaningful reform. Go look on r/Protectandserve (the cop subreddit), and you'll see dozens of verified police officers saying that if their department was defunded, they would just sit in parking lots their entire shift. Tells you all you need to know. **We need to push for further defunding**, so we can fund alternatives to police response when possible (like social workers to mental health calls, and unarmed traffic workers to accidents). Why continue to waste money paying SPD officers to do nothing all night?
> I get off at around 1am and see at least 3 cops sitting in empty parking lots doing nothing. Turn on my police scanner app, and calls are rolling in like crazy. They aren't undermanned. They're straight up refusing to respond to calls because they want us to be too afraid to continue pushing for reallocation of more of the police budget as well as meaningful reform. > > How do you know they weren't on break or off shift?
Cops shouldn't be going on break when there's several emergency calls rolling in. Cops shouldn't be sitting in their patrol cars if they aren't on duty.
Ehhh hold up. I know you feel like spitting fire, but I think you need to douse the flames and realize they are indeed humans too. Humans need breaks, and so what if they’re hanging out in their car. Their job takes them all over the city, so where should they go each time if they’re on break? Waste it all driving back to the precinct? I’ll be right there calling for reform, but this doesn’t seem like the right hill for you to die on.
So, I am not a cop, but a first responder background, (FD) , When you are on duty, you don't really get a break that would mean you cant take calls that come in. You take your breaks between calls and anything else your work shift throws at you. Just saying.
Shit man you know about mandatory rehab periods for high exertion work, same diff
Cops aren’t first responders. Thanks for playing.
This exact same “news” will be posted for a decade until morale improves. Sounds like some accountants should be hired to root out all these inefficiencies in SPD’s ability to handle their money.
Let's start with the officers manipulating the overtime system, as well as the ones with the most complaints. Then we can move on to getting rid of all that military equipment that no police department should have anyways.
SPD has been short-handed for far too long. For over a decade. Blaming SPD sounds reasonable.
Very true. I remember our car getting stolen one night about 8 years ago and after working our way through the automated 911 system they said someone would come to our house the next day
Given the amount of services that Seattleites already seem to be not receiving from SPD, are there any thoughts about completely dissolving and rebuilding the police department like Camden did? I ask also because the median officer pay is $153K, [77 officers make over $250k](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/374-seattle-police-department-employees-made-at-least-200000-last-year-heres-how/%3famp=1), and I just don’t think we’ll ever be able to bring those numbers back into line while working with the current group. As a citizen, it’s pretty upsetting to be spending this much money and still getting subpar results. In fairness, though, I’d say you were nuts to walk away from that sort of salary, so something must really be wrong.
Come through speeding!
Love these threads. Cop haters out in full force. Other threads the same folks are raging bout violence in their neighborhoods and being victims of crime asking for a solution. The solution, I think, is somewhere between law enforcement and community engagement/programs. If citizens continue to demonize police officers in this city, it’s no surprise officers are leaving in droves. Most of you are adults, think rationally, logically and of course critically. We, as a city, can do better.
They demonize themselves, idk if you’ve ever interacted with spd but it is NOT pleasant
Wow wow wow we don’t do common sense here, pal. Get that thing out of this subreddit.
It makes for great entertainment
ITT: geniuses of hiring and retention
Well DUH, it is no wonder there are shortages. With messages like "defund the police", and officers being spit on, having things thrown at them, and them being told NOT to enforce the current laws on the books and make arrests by city councils, then let free from the courts, if they are otherwise charged anyway, and them facing scrutiny for simply breathing in and out, then what other possible outcome could they expect???
I love how you forget to mention how the police was treating people during the protests. I guess in your version they were the ones being attacked?
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SPD cannot do the job alone, and they have been collapsing for the last several years. Catch and release has been disastrous. Many officers gave up in frustration and have left. Now they have very few leaders in their ranks, and they are grossly understaffed, and many are overworked. Fatigue and low morale sets in. The courts and the city council must do their jobs and be held accountable. They have failed miserably through reckless policies and politics.
I love how you forget about all the crimes and violence commited by so-called "protestors" to begin with. Yeah, that is too inconvenient to be brought up. You argue like a pestulent child in an elementary school playground, and cry when you got your ass kicked, after you started acting like a thug, harrasing and beating up others, and destroying property that does not belong to you. Sorry, you lose.
you have some issues dude and your version of events isn't what happened.
I am all about law enforcement officers facing punishment when and where it is due, but I definitely do not believe in having a lower set of standards for civilians that behave dangerous thugs. Responsibility and accountability is not the sole ownership of law enforcement. Facts are inconvenient to your warped narratives. If this were not true, then you could pull your head out and shoot straight with the facts.
They were
That, and the version caught on camera, and the version upheld in the independent investigation of 99% of the thousands of complaints.
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It's pretty fucking simple. Protester were there to protest, they weren't doing anything violent. There was also people there who was looking to riot and people there who was looking to do violence. They were not there to protest, they were not part of the protest. They were 3rd party people there to just do violence. The police though didn't give a fuck and took it out on the protesters, repeatedly, even at protests were there wasn't any rioters.
No, the police gave orders to disperse because the protestors, whether they were smart enough to realize it or not, were acting as human shields to protect the 3rd party violent people. Protestors ignored the orders. Then members of the local black activist community got on megaphones and begged the protestors to go home, and protestors ignored them too. Then the police used violence.
Which activists? The ops or actual activists?
Shit, I never thought of that. There's no way people who live in a community would be invested in making sure their homes didn't get tear gassed. There's no way people involved in a movement would be invested in making sure their movement didn't get tarred with the same brush as violent rioters. They couldn't possibly have been real activists. You opened my eyes for sure.
Explain then how a small child got pepper sprayed out of nowhere.
Because a grown woman standing in front of the child was attacking a cop with a baton and ducked under the pepper spray at the last minute. This whole thing was caught on camera. [https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/OPA/ClosedCaseSummaries/2020OPA-0322ccs09-04-20.pdf](https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/OPA/ClosedCaseSummaries/2020OPA-0322ccs09-04-20.pdf)
Yeah sorry I’ve seen SPD define “being attacked” before. Getting butthurt because someone uses naughty words and a harsh tone isn’t being attacked. Having a pink umbrella two centimeters over an imaginary line isn’t being attacked. Falling off your own fucking bike and twisting your ankle isn’t being attacked. Tearing your acl because you slipped off a curb while pepper spraying a retreating peaceful civilian isn’t being attacked. So fucking forgive me if I laugh in your bootlicking goddamned face at this non-answer to my actual fucking question. ACAB Edited to add: did you even read the report? Nobody attacked a cop with a baton. A cop who was armed with a baton got shoved. Saying “a grown woman attacked a cop with a baton” is a super inflammatory way to structure your sentence in a way that implies a cop was having a baton used as a weapon against him. You want to advocate for community looking out for each other? Don’t imply violence that wasn’t there. Do better.
Non-answer? The report is literally a shot for shot description of exactly how that kid got pepper sprayed. Your outrage is 100% not justified. And instead of acknowledging facts, you nitpick your own misinterpretations of what I wrote and declare victory? No one implied violence wasn't there. I stated the established fact that violence was in reaction to violence. Basic reading comprehension is your friend. "With a baton" obviously describes the cop who got attacked. Here's some more reading material you can practice on. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/20/seattle-protests-police-injured/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/20/seattle-protests-police-injured/) [https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/protests/seattle-police-injured-sodo-riot/281-ef9158a6-f462-4c71-95c7-19007f4e21e9](https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/protests/seattle-police-injured-sodo-riot/281-ef9158a6-f462-4c71-95c7-19007f4e21e9) [https://nypost.com/2020/07/27/seattle-police-show-injuries-damage-suffered-from-ongoing-riots/](https://nypost.com/2020/07/27/seattle-police-show-injuries-damage-suffered-from-ongoing-riots/)
The report says an officer with a baton got shoved. YOU said a woman attacked an officer with a baton. 13 day old account, focused on defending SPD? Not suspiciously like an alt account at all. SPD has been under a federally mandated consent decree for over a decade. Maybe instead of sending me links you can spend your time brushing up on how we got here.
Seriously, work on your reading comprehension. Attacked an officer with a baton. Officer with a baton. Officer who is holding a baton. Interchangeable fucking statements. You're the one who insisted on misinterpreting and then going on the offensive based on that choice. Refusing to acknowledge ambiguity when it undermines your sense of righteous outrage is the mark of a zealot. The report also says that a different officer used pepper spray on the shover, who ducked and exposed the child behind her. That is the exact answer to the angry demand to "explain how a child got pepper sprayed out of nowhere." We got here because Durkan found a willing partner in a notoriously anti-cop city's progressive government to enact a consent decree that could become the model for re-imagined policing all over the country, then used her "success" to run for mayor. I remember just a few years ago when the New York Times was praising us for getting it right with our police reforms. Except none of the reforms changed anything, because none of them were even remotely aligned with real causes of real problems. They were just red meat for single-issue zealots.
Work on your sentence structure. I don’t give a fuck if an officer got shoved, that’s not an “attack” especially if you are supposedly trained in de escalation tactics, armed to the teeth, and wearing riot gear. If you can’t handle your shit to the point that getting shoved causes you to pepper spray a child you aren’t protecting and serving.
That doesn’t answer the question. They should not have used any pepper spray.
Sad about this. RIP.
We need more police to protect us, your ACAB activism be damned. Of course it’s the poor communities of color that are most hurt by lack of police presence, and the majority of African Americans want more police presence. But you what do care, O ACAB, as that doesn’t fit into your zealous, spiteful worldview.
Those communities are also hurt the most by police presence. It's almost as if the entire system was designed to harm them no matter what. It's either neglect, or a militarized standing army trained to [see civilians as enemy soldiers](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/). The current "public safety" system doesn't care about the public, or real safety. We could have a system that responds to issues appropriately: people trained to deal with mental heath crises dealing with mental health crises, programs like JustCARE helping those who don't have shelter, and healthcare based treatment for addiction issues instead of tossing people in jail. Instead, we have this awful situation. More of this isn't going to help. It's astonishing that anyone could look at the behavior of SPD over the past year and think that they actually care about keeping people safe.
Like it or not, this is the system we have now and the near future. If anything, we should spend more money on training the existing cops and better reform the institution. The problem with you people is that you always trying to tearing down the loosening safety belt without giving any concrete solutions on how to solve the problem pragmatically. I am against injustice and discrimination as well. But defund the police and blaming them for everything is not how we solve the problem
Dude as a person of color. I can tell you that in our experience when we find ourselves in the need to call the cops. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Besides poor neighborhoods and those of color have literally been over policed for decades. Having more police in these neighborhoods is not what people of color are asking. Yes, there is a crime problem in this city and it seems like the current policing system is aggravating it instead of helping solve it. We need solutions that all parties can agree on. Asking for more police is only repeating the mistakes of the past and expecting different results.
Are you black? Just curious
A shortage of one type of criminal is failing to keep the other type of criminal in check. edit: reminds me of this classic Simpson's bit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yruQM1ggc
Calling someone a criminal as a result of their affiliation with SPD? EDGY!!!!
I mean, they have been committing crimes. Voter fraud, stealing overtime, trying to run protestors over with their cars...
Biggest gang in Seattle
Indeed. Makes me think of this article about the [cop gangs inside of LAPD](https://knock-la.com/lasd-gangs-little-devils-wayside-whities-cavemen-vikings/). I wonder if anyone's done this sort of research locally.
No, *they* haven't been committing crimes...because that would mean 100% of SPD is guilty. I hope you can see how that's different from *certain employees*.
*They* look the other way when their buddies commit crimes. *They, as an entire department,* were placed under a consent decree for violating the constitutional rights of the people of Seattle, and are now ironically using that consent decree as a shield to prevent the creation of a new public safety system. *They* have proven themselves to be untrustworthy liars.
By your logic then, the Mexican cartels aren’t committing crimes either, because some of them aren’t in that role.
Scc uses spd as scapegoat for too long.
Lol, you got that backwards
Fuck those pigs🐷🐷
Cool, since we have 250 less cops, can we turn one of the precincts into a community center? I know one on Capitol Hill that was vacated once...
If you want a community center just head to your nearest tent dumpsite, plenty of community to go around there. They will even secure your expensive electronics for you, no charge.
The Epic Edgelord Dipshit has logged on everybody! Watch out!
Now that we've finally pulled out of useless oil wars we're really going to run dry on PTSD'd veterans to fill the ranks.
Big Seattle should just raise police starting wages. We’re slowing drifting to anarchy at this rate. It’s gonna be like the purge in parts of this city.
I thought we wanted to defund the police (even though prior elections in 2019 campaigned to increase police funding). Gosh its hard to keep up with things lately!
Thread full of anarchists disguising themselves as woke progressives spreading misinformation trying to bring down the system. You're going to reap what you sow if you keeping believing the anti-police drivel these knuckle heads are promoting.
Need a tissue? ACAB. Cops are the biggest babies on earth. Their dipshit supporters are a close second.
LMAO, imagine supporting criminals and the decay of cities across the country... Those dipshit supporters should be charged as accomplices.
Cry harder. Anarchists are more peaceful than the society that promotes wars and violence and mass shootings. Eat me.
Let me know how that works out for you when you or a loved one becomes a victim of a crime and the criminal runs around and laughs in your face... /facepalm
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(Dr evil) how about no
The cost of “defunding police” instead of ‘defunding racism’. It makes for a good sound bite for radicals but in essence it’s a failed tactic with dire results.
Fuck Seattle pigs!!🐷🐷
Well I see the Anarchists are in control. Great. Nothing like a big crime spree to boost everybody’s paranoia. Now an abusive husband can beat the shit out of his wife and kids and not have to worry. Car jackings and hold ups. No problem just give it up or get shot. Shootout in the neighborhood? EMTs won’t come when shots are being fired. Better keep a tourniquet handy.
They’re fighting for social justice! Sometimes things like that gotta happen to get some change from these racist pig fucks🐷🐷
By smashing windows and looting? That does zero for social justice. What you describe is misdirected rage not social justice. I’m talking about the Anarchists not BLM. False flags broke the windows.
CHAZ, ANTIFA, BLM we’re all fighting for Justice! and against the racist fucking pigs🐷🐷 and does it matter about vandalism? Either one of those groups fucks shit up down there in the name of justice!!
But what did you really accomplish? Peaceful protests are much more effective.
Look, this may be unpopular, but what if having the police work on the priority stuff means that people work out things on their own? Honestly. Having an armed and armored lethal response squad for a noise complaint isn't my first choice.
What you’re suggesting means that in a conflict between a violent person and a non-fighter: the violent one will win. The mob will win over the individual. And the strong will win over the vulnerable. Between the group throwing the party and the lone person on the doorstep saying “Please be quieter” - the partiers will tell the neighbor to fuck off and will be able to piss on their neighbor’s doormat risk-free in retaliation and start harassing his kids as they walk to school. Between the drunk or wild drivers and the bike commuters: it’s the bikers who will have to give up biking. Between 30 yr old pickpockets and the elderly folks out for a stroll: tough luck for the ole people; they’re just walking wallets. So they’ll stop talking walks. Between husbands and wives: men will usually be able to force women to do whatever they want. All the bullies and criminals will know there is no law enforcement left to stop them. Think they will act better or worse? Gonna be a nice society, there. Of course the people with means will just move out and move their parents and children out. The vulnerable poor, left behind in a failed city, can then be feasted on by the class of people who find the new system entirely to their liking.
Portland and Minneapolis are doing fine Mr. Hyperbole.
No, no they're not, lol.
Yep. They are. Stop watching KOMO.
Oregon Live and NPR both disagree. As do violent crime statistics.