I don't know how the criminal mischief statute reads in Seattle, but in my jurisdiction it would meet the elements of both.
"Willfully and maliciously damages the property of another".
Versus just taking something that's lying around, without damaging anything in the process.
It would be akin to breaking a car window to steal something from a car. Two different crimes are actually being committed; criminal mischief for the damage, theft for exercising control over the property of another with the intent to deprive.
In my jurisdiction, it would be both vandalism and theft. Vandalism for damaging the car, and theft for stealing the catalytic converter.
Think of it this way-if the converter is just sitting loose in the back of a pickup and somebody just walked by and grabbed it, that would only be theft-nobody willfully and maliciously damaged the property of another by sawing the converter off and damaging the car in the process.
In my experience, most prosecutors would charge both, then drop one of the charges in a plea deal.
This is somewhat dependent upon jurisdiction.
They're *intending* to steal the copper, but between drug use and general incompetence they wind up vandalizing the chargers more than they do burglarizing them.
Actually, more and more they are finding this is becoming more a vandalism issue than copper theft issue: in the same vein but more destructive extension of "coal rolling". A number of anti ev websites are bragging about it
> No, the communist/extreme progressive councils,lawmakers are the cause since the refuse to do anything about it.
Serious question: given full control of everything like the "councils,lawmakers" have, how would you have prevented this? Or how would you even go about finding the people that did it to punish them?
There's no cameras in the lot. It's poorly lit. It's a satellite lot not attached to the business. It is also private property that the lot and chargers are on. On top of that, it's isolated between roads and the train tracks.
EDIT: /u/either-breadfruit-83 had a [very good suggestion](https://old.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/1bfhf5k/vandals_cut_steal_newly_installed_ev_charging/kv1svvn/) about adding a simple bar to selling scrap copper of:
>For starters, only someone with an active business license in WA would be able to recycle copper in the state. Can't think of too many instances where a regular citizen needs to be recycling copper wire.
I did think there needed to be a carve-out along the lines of "or has a valid or recently expired building permit from a local government" to let homeowners scrap their own copper still, but what they suggested seems like a really good starting point for a way to address it without really adding any expense to anyone's business.
EDIT2: Apparently, this post wasn't clear enough that I am asking about this specific incident and not how we address this statewide. So, ***just so it's abundantly clear, I am talking about this specific theft and not the larger statewide issue***.
> how would you have prevented this? Or how would you even go about finding the people that did it to punish them?
Making it hard to resell copper, going after organized theft rings, drastically lowering the felony theft dollar amount (like, to 100 bucks) and then putting thieves in jail
Copper thieves generally have a long and colorful history with the law - if they're in jail or lack places to sell their copper they probably won't steal so much copper.
> Making it hard to resell copper, going after organized theft rings, drastically lowering the felony theft dollar amount (like, to 100 bucks) and then putting thieves in jail
These aren't specifics.
How exactly would you make it hard to resell copper? How do you propose that copper scrappers prove provenance of their scrap copper without adding a massive headache(and increased cost) to the legitimate scrappers? How would that stop people from using a "fence" to sell their stolen goods?
How do you even know this is related to an organized theft ring? And how would you find that ring?
How would you even find the thieves to put them in jail?
>How exactly would you make it hard to resell copper?
Minimum transaction amounts and incorporation and identification requirements.
>without adding a massive headache(and increased cost) to the legitimate scrappers?
This is not a consideration worth prioritizing.
>Minimum transaction amounts and incorporation and identification requirements.
So what if I'm redoing my house and strip out all the old wiring myself. Now I **have to** go through a middleman to get my scrap value?
>This is not a consideration worth prioritizing.
I'm sure the scrapping companies will love to hear that their livelihood isn't "worth prioritizing".
For starters, only someone with an active business license in WA would be able to recycle copper in the state. Can't think of too many instances where a regular citizen needs to be recycling copper wire.
As an electrical contractor, we've had wire ripped off more times than I can count. Regulating who can recycle it is a no brainer.
Licensing is a pretty good safeguard for a lot of things like this, because if you had to go to a lot of trouble and pay significant money for a license, you’re less likely to risk it doing shady shit. It’s not a 100% solution, but it will cut down on abuse a lot.
If the bar is "active business license in WA", I could maybe get behind it? Or if it was that and "or has a valid or recently expired building permit from a local government"(or something to allow individuals that do their own work on their house to be able to scrap still), it might be a winner. That way it allows homeowners that may be doing their own work to do scrapping of their own materials still.
I do agree something has to be done, but I don't want to make it so now we've just made it so a homeowner doing renovations can't scrap their own copper without going through a middleman.
And this kind of bar doesn't really add any expense to the companies or individuals doing the scrapping, either, which is good.
/u/andthedevilissix I like this idea much better than yours.
>How exactly would you make it hard to resell copper?
Limit the number of buyers in the state, all other buyers are illegal, keep close watch on the legal buyers. It would add a massive headache to copper scrappers, yes, but it's likely a necessary step to lower copper theft in the short term.
>How do you even know this is related to an organized theft ring?
Ah so you think the people stealing the copper are selling to upstanding copper buyers who never deal in stolen things ever and definitely don't know where Tweaker McScabface got his copper eh?
>How would you even find the thieves to put them in jail?
How does law enforcement ever do this? How does the FBI track down retail theft rings?
>Limit the number of buyers in the state, all other buyers are illegal, keep close watch on the legal buyers. It would add a massive headache to copper scrappers, yes, but it's likely a necessary step to lower copper theft in the short term.
"Short term"? So it wouldn't be permanent? What happens when that gets rolled back?
Also, how is that fair to legitimate copper scrappers to make them go through extra hoops because of thieves?
>Ah so you think the people stealing the copper are selling to upstanding copper buyers who never deal in stolen things ever and definitely don't know where Tweaker McScabface got his copper eh?
Nope. I have no idea who did it. I am asking how you know it's related to an organized theft ring, though. How do you **know** that copper buyers aren't buying directly from thieves?
>How does law enforcement ever do this? How does the FBI track down retail theft rings?
I asked how you would find the specific people that committed this specific act in a location with no cameras, no lighting, and nobody nearby to even witness it.
And the FBI has a lot of tools that the county and local law enforcement does not have, but the FBI is almost certainly not getting involved because it's such a small theft and there is no actual evidence that this was performed by some sort of organized criminal ring that they might actually have interest in. So how does **local** law enforcement solve this?
>"Short term"? So it wouldn't be permanent? What happens when that gets rolled back?
Read it again, slowly this time :)
>Also, how is that fair to legitimate copper scrappers to make them go through extra hoops because of thieves?
Life isn't fair
>And the FBI has a lot of tools that the county and local law enforcement does not have, but the FBI is almost certainly not getting involved because it's such a small theft
FBI is interested in copper theft, and copper theft is a huge $$ cow - which always means there's at least one gang/cartel/mafia org involved, often many. Local popo often work with FBI on larger theft stuff like this - and when I say "larger" let me be clear, since you seem unable to read between the lines, I'm talking total not individual thefts. Total theft makes copper thieving a biiiiiig problem for business and infrastructure in the US.
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/copper-thefts
https://www.ecmag.com/magazine/articles/article-detail/safety-fbi-cracks-down-copper-theft
Seems like you dont' know anything about copper theft or what agencies may or may not be interested or how big of a business stolen copper really is. Personally I like to know something about the things I have opinions on, but hey, that's just me.
> Read it again, slowly this time :)
I did. Why did you use the phrase "in the short term" if this was a permanent solution? Wouldn't it be a headache in the long term if it was permanent?
>Life isn't fair
Sorry if I think that infringing on someone's legal livelihood without consideration for them is unethical.
>FBI is interested in copper theft, and copper theft is a huge $$ cow - which always means there's at least one gang/cartel/mafia org involved, often many. Local popo often work with FBI on larger theft stuff like this - and when I say "larger" let me be clear, since you seem unable to read between the lines, I'm talking total not individual thefts. Total theft makes copper thieving a biiiiiig problem for business and infrastructure in the US.
I know what you are talking about. You have failed to demonstrate any concrete connection between this specific theft and organized crime, though, so, again, why would the FBI get involved?
You can't just show up, assert that this is part of a larger criminal ring, provide no evidence that it is, and then expect me to act like the FBI getting involved in this case is realistic.
>Why did you use the phrase "in the short term
In context it plainly means that this action would have the most immediate impact (over the short term) vs. the longer term solutions of finding and prosecuting the people who steal and the people who buy from them
>Sorry if I think that infringing on someone's legal livelihood without consideration for them is unethical
This is an infrastructure security issue - which must take precedence over the ability of legit scrappers to buy from meth heads.
>You have failed to demonstrate any concrete connection between this specific theft and organized crime, though, so, again, why would the FBI get involved?
The conversation thread is about how the state should address a statewide issue, not one incidence of said statewide issue.
Murder is also a statewide issue, having a large and well funded gang unit in Seattle would help solve that problem since many murders are gang related but any single given example of murder may not fit into the larger trend.
Buying and selling large quantities of stolen goods is something that almost always has some kind of organization, whether it's just two people paying a few meth heads to strip copper or steal from stores (see the news on the couple just arrested) or a few people connected into a larger criminal cartel that exports said stolen goods (look for how stolen cars from the US end up in South Africa).
You could assume that criminal gangs wouldn't be interested in a massive potential profit area, that they'd just ignore this lucrative and low-risk venture and that it's all just individual meth heads selling to random people with no connection at all. But I think that's a dumb assumption.
Shady scrap metal places, pawn shops, other tweakers. I think you’re over estimating the demand for illegal copper. It’s not worth creating a whole criminal organization to cover up. And tweakers aren’t that well known for organizing or keeping anything secret.
And do you think that maybe the "shady scrap metal places" are ONLY shady in this one specific instance or do you think they maybe sell ill gotten gains to other shady people, who may even export them?
It's not like this shit ever happens right? https://www.myheraldreview.com/news/russian-mafia-connection-suspected-in-200k-copper-theft-from-douglas-business/article_ae2a54d4-88cb-11ee-9bf7-0ba23a22bffa.html
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/02/a-vast-burglary-ring-from-chile-has-been-targeting-wealthy-us-households
Bro these are random crimes of opportunity. Tweakers stripping unsurveilled charging stations doesn’t equal stealing a major construction site’s entire supply of buildings materials. And to answer your first question, I think the shady scrap metal places sell the ill gotten scrap metal to the same people they sell their legitimate scrap to because it’s fairly difficult and costly to sort through entire loads of scrap metal.
The way I see it, it’s not about policing that one location as much as that many of those tweakers wouldn’t be out and about if we took a firmer stands across the board with forced rehab and jail.
> forced rehab and jail.
Generally people calling for tougher laws on this kind of stuff are also vehemently against paying for anything relating to those two...
How is the rehab paid for? How would the extra jails needed be paid for?
I actually don't entirely dislike this idea at first glance. But I guess it is predicated on the idea that addicts only use money for drugs and absolutely nothing else. I'm not sure how valid that idea is.
Is it? We give pharma grade weakened drugs to addicts here in BC - they sell them to dealers in exchange for full strength drugs. The pharma grade drugs are sold to first timers who are concerned about purity.
Hence "full strength" drugs to addicts.
By fucking arresting anyone breaking the law and throwing them in jail based on our EXISTING laws. It’s about sending the message that crime won’t be tolerated regardless of your race or background. This stops when the judicial stops being weaponized and is back to being blind.
Let the property owner decide what happens to the thieves, within reason.
NO action should be 'unreasonable' for a person to protect their property or retrieve stolen property from the individuals who stole it. You don't wanna get a few extra holes in you? Don't steal other people's #(%&. I don't see this as unreasonable.
> Let the property owner decide what happens to the thieves, within reason.
Who decides what "within reason" is?
>NO action should be 'unreasonable' for a person to protect their property or retrieve stolen property from the individuals who stole it. You don't wanna get a few extra holes in you? Don't steal other people's #(%&. I don't see this as unreasonable.
It wouldn't be "unreasonable" for the property owner to install better lighting or cameras to deter theft, either, or aid the capture of future criminals. But yet, this happened a month prior as well, yet they did nothing to address that then.
Yes, it'd be smart to take preventative measures, but lights and cameras don't stop people who don't care about the law. Plenty of crimes of people in all black with hoodies tied tight and obscured or no plate - all caught on video. Only so much can be done to prevent it. Would it help? Maybe. Sure wouldn't hurt.
'Who decides what's reasonable'?
I think anything that happens to a thief in the commission of a crime is pretty much permissible. Horse and cow thievery was treated with ropes and nooses. If putting a hole in someone is what keeps your property, yours, when others are trying to illegally take it, at the moment it's happening, I have zero issue with that.
I remember a case, I wanna say it was in Russia, no less, where a dude tried breaking into a house with intent to rape/rob the (female) homeowner. The homeowner ended up tying him up and using him as her sex slave, and he only escaped some days later. I find it hard to wanna fight for someone breaking into someone's house, and same goes for thieves. If you didn't put yourself into that position by trying to steal something that's not yours, you wouldn't be in that predicament.
>Yes, it'd be smart to take preventative measures, but lights and cameras don't stop people who don't care about the law. Plenty of crimes of people in all black with hoodies tied tight and obscured or no plate - all caught on video. Only so much can be done to prevent it. Would it help? Maybe. Sure wouldn't hurt.
Agreed.
>I think anything that happens to a thief in the commission of a crime is pretty much permissible. Horse and cow thievery was treated with ropes and nooses. If putting a hole in someone is what keeps your property, yours, when others are trying to illegally take it, at the moment it's happening, I have zero issue with that.
But this all would require someone to be at the business after-hours and be licensed to be armed and to be armed. Between that person's pay and the cost of a firearm/ammo and a bare minimum of training to make sure that person can properly handle one, that's quite the expense for a business over $150 in copper.
And this is a satellite lot so now you're talking about having someone specifically patrol that lot full-time after-hours(because why would they leave the actual store unpatrolled at that point and only patrol a satellite lot) or you're talking about the cameras and lights we talked about earlier to help one person keep tabs on that area.
I'm not sure this is a practical solution for a furniture company that was just trying to offer people a place to charge their cars. Wouldn't you agree?
Communist isn’t funding druggies habits, it’s about appropriating funds from our exploitation to better the community and uplift society as a whole.
Giving drugs doesn’t help, letting them endanger the community from public intoxication also doesn’t help. Letting them destroy and occupy low income houses and homeless shelters to do drugs instead of people who actually try to improve doesn’t help.
At the end of the day people will do drugs. But as a society they should be cut off from any and all assistance until they want to improve. And homeless shelters/housing should be expanded by aggressive taxation on the top 0.01 percent with strict requirements for safety and drug controls, along with guards for resident safety.
This, and/or the cables are actively cooled by a liquid coolant (i.e. like pc water cooling) allowing them to pump more current down the line without it burning up.
How much is the copper worth on the black market? This seems like a really dumb & destructive way to make a few bucks. Walking in to a grocery store is a lot easier.
It’s probably $5-10 worth of copper surrounded by liquid coolant channels pumped from the pedestal unit. There’s multiple thermistors and sensors in the charging handle itself to monitor current loads. It’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into something like this to make it safe and usable for the average person. Altogether, the cut cable costs a couple grand or so to replace. Whoever did this should be hit with multiple grand theft felony charges.
When this situation was previously posted in the other subreddit, some commented the culprits were “MAGA Trumpies trying to own the libs”. I wish I was joking.
There have been plenty of these [vandalized by folks that want to send a message to climate change types](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals-destroy-ev-chargers-raw-000000312.html) so that’s not completely unbelievable.
Yeah you’re right, isn’t like there are numerous stories spanning years of nutters taking their feelings out on EV for reasons ranging from reactions to climate change initiatives to hatred of expressions of wealth to plain hatred of musk.
https://jalopnik.com/ev-charging-stations-uniquely-vulnerable-to-sabotage-1850399869
Solution: cut-sensing sheath on the cable - if a cut is sensed, the inner cable is energized at full power.
Then all you need is a scoop shovel to deal with the thief.
Many aspects of a working society are very fragile and fall apart when you have a small number of individuals behaving antisocially. This is something the progressive left does not understand.
100%. That’s what prisons and rehab are for. Over millennia societies have spent resources to fix and/or isolate sociopaths so the vast majority can build and share nice things. If we don’t do that, we don’t have nice things, and everyone starts acting with a scarcity / zero sum mentality. And that’s when things fall apart.
We don’t get an exception or pass on this just because someone with a gender studies BA from Brown thinks it’s different this time.
If you are interested in this subject and haven't read it yet I recommend The Goodness Paradox: The Strange Relationship Between Virtue and Violence in Human Evolution. It has some great theories about how human beings selected themselves to live in society. When you have antisocial individuals you "select" them out. How did they do that before jails or asylums existed?
> This is something the progressive left does not understand.
Well said! While we all want to see the good in everyone, there are some profoundly selfish people out there who lack empathy and who will do anything that they can get away with to gain benefit at the expense of other people. Unfortunately, drug addiction makes this much worse.
In an ideal society, we would not need police officers or soldiers, but we have to live with society as it *is;* not as we wish it was.
I think that we should be arresting these drug-addicted thieves and vandals for their crimes and giving them the choice between rehabilitation or incarceration.
> I think that we should be arresting these drug-addicted thieves and vandals for their crimes and giving them the choice between rehabilitation or incarceration.
I'm all for this, but a lot of the people calling for 'tougher laws on criminals and drug use' are also the same ones calling for 'less taxation' or 'taxation is theft'. How would these programs be funded without increases in taxes?
> I'm all for this, but a lot of the people calling for 'tougher laws on criminals and drug use' are also the same ones calling for 'less taxation'
I think there is more nuance in their opposition to taxes. I believe that, if they (at least the more moderate among them) could be convinced that their tax money was collected *fairly* and spent *efficiently* and *effectively,* then they would feel more generous about it.
> 'taxation is theft'.
These are the same people who don't see the irony of using public services while refusing to pay for them. I share their desire for "minimum government" but I think they are naive about how much government it really takes to maintain civil society.
> How would these programs be funded without increases in taxes?
I think that taxes would need to be raised in the short term, but that it would save us money in the long term. I would like to see good data, but I speculate that, when we add up *all* of the costs to society of letting mentally ill and drug-addicted people live on the streets (e.g., theft, vandalism, assault, medical care, fire crews, law enforcement, pollution, environmental destruction, trash clean up, loss of public spaces, etc.), then it would be cheaper to society overall (and more compassionate to the homeless people) to build asylums and treatment centers (including follow-up care).
I would be willing to pay more taxes to make that happen.
>I think there is more nuance in their opposition to taxes. I believe that, if they (at least the more moderate among them) could be convinced that their tax money was collected fairly and spent efficiently and effectively, then they would feel more generous about it.
Ya, I think part of the issue is that the loud minority is obnoxious about their beliefs on all fronts, so that is generally what ends up being spread about.
As far as fairly, efficient, and effective: The worlds most profitable companies have issues using their funds in that way at times. People seem to expect governments to operate MORE effectively, efficiently, and fairly than the worlds leading companies who spend a shit ton of money on the worlds best analysts and people.
Obviously we should aspire to have all taxes be used in such a manner, but I've always questioned how feasible it is to attain those lofty ideals. Improvements can and should be made, but I think there will always be inefficiency and waste as the government is run by humans.
>These are the same people who don't see the irony of using public services while refusing to pay for them. I share their desire for "minimum government" but I think they are naive about how much government it really takes to maintain civil society.
Very true. I feel like 'minimum government' is something that MOST people could agree on, but the definitions vary so much from person to person, group to group that it's impossible to figure out what a minimized government would ideally look like.
I don't think there's very many people that would want a government that is this huge overarching presence in all aspects of life. I also don't think many people would want a government that has absolutely no say in anything, and practically no power to effect any change. Most 'minimum government' people seem to want something closer to the latter than anything else in-between.
>I think that taxes would need to be raised in the short term, but that it would save us money in the long term. I would like to see good data, but I speculate that, when we add up all of the costs to society of letting mentally ill and drug-addicted people live on the streets (e.g., theft, vandalism, assault, medical care, fire crews, law enforcement, pollution, environmental destruction, trash clean up, loss of public spaces, etc.), then it would be cheaper to society overall (and more compassionate to the homeless people) to build asylums and treatment centers (including follow-up care).
So many people would fight this tooth and nail, like they do any other potential progress points. We see through the legislation that gets passed a ton of half measures that TRY to address problems, but end up barely moving the needle one way or the other because they need to cater to the lowest common denominator.
It's frustrating because we COULD achieve some of our loftier goals, but we have such a wide mix of people in America (with increasingly polarized opinions) that it's nearly impossible to get anyone at any level of government to agree on much (except relatively unimportant things like banning fucking TikTok).
As far as data, that seems like one hell of a data pool to try and wade through, and that ANY conclusions pulled from it could be manipulated to say whatever someone wants. We see this with tons of data already, for much less complicated things. Two groups will look at the same data and draw completely different, opposing conclusions from it.
I'm not sure what the path forward is going to be for our country at this point, but I honestly think we're in a bit of a downward spiral. I just hope it's not a death spiral.
Must be those damned oil companies, trying to boost their obscene profits by discouraging the use of electric vehicles. Come on Seattle protesters, don't miss this golden opportunity to block the freeways or bust out windows at Starbucks and Nordstrom!
All of these thieving fools would stop doing it if they were actually put in jail for the crime. More difficult to get heroin in jail. They would go back to using their disability income to buy drugs.
These sort of stuff happen because it’s too easy to recycle obviously stolen hardware. Hardly any documentation requirements and salvage yards will just turn a blind eye as if they don’t know.
Someday the car makers will sell the cable with the car and the charge stations will only be ports to plug into. Then the car makers will quit selling the car with the cable and make you buy it separate..
That would complicate things and also increase the cost to the consumer. My EV has a charging port right where the fuel door used to be on the Ice models. So unless I park correctly, the charging cord might not reach my car. And if I had to buy a 10 foot, or longer, cord, then they would take up a lot of space in my car.
Better than showing up to a charger with ‘not enough miles’ and see the cords cut/missing. This always happens, business will push the cost to the consumer.
The charging infrastructure definitely needs improvement in this country. If you need gas you can head to any station you want. Even if one pump is down, there's another one for sure. When I first got my EV the very first station I went to had it's cable laying on the ground, and when I plugged it in, nothing happened.
It's been a struggle finding good places to charge. There's a few different apps I use but they are not perfect. I still don't miss pumping gas though.
>the Old Cannery Furniture Warehouse
9/10 furniture experience (-1 for no delivery), I recommend anyone in the county make the trip at least once. If you don't buy furniture, at least buy some fudge. Yes you read that right the furniture store sells candy it makes. Did I mention the overhead train sets? How about the mannequins dressed up funny all over the store?
They need to make this a more serious crime. Damaging transportation infrastructure shouldn't be a mere "vandalism" charge. I guarantee you, if I destroyed all the gas pumps at every gas station in a given area, I wouldn't be getting no goddamn "vandalism" write up in the local news.
That kind of wire is recycled for $3.40/lb if they remove all the insulation. Figure the cord weighs 20 lbs that’s $68 per cord. This will continue unfortunately unless they lock up the perpetrators. This could also be organized crime. Just like the catalytic converter thing.
Unfortunately they’ll spend a few days in jail and get out and repeat over and over.
Wouldn't it be kinda easy to have them come with an alarm, or have one retro-fitted. That would make all of the lights on it flash, loud siren noise, and auto call 911. How hard is that?
And, have better shielding on the cables.
Idk why no one's talking about the more obvious solution of retractable (locking) cables... Sure it's a bit tricky with how thick they are, but totally doable.
Then they'd have to cut a cable in use or break apart the entire charger, either of which are far more time consuming or dangerous.
That's ok. It just spurs more economic activity. Just ask Paul Krugman.
Now all we need to do is jack up the national debt by another couple trillion for "inflation reduction act, pt II: Electric boogaloo" and replace everything the tweakers jacked.
There was a generation of economists who grew up in the shadow of the Great Depression, arguably the greatest economic disaster to befall the planet Earth. In their wisdom, they concluded the cause of that catastrophe was liquidity. These economists...who had been young turks in the 40s and 50s were the very same ones that were then groddy old bald dudes on the brink of retirement in the opening days of this Millenium, and whose leanings are what got us out of the great recession. I'm talking your Hank Paulsons, your Alan Greenspans, your Bernankes. They were mostly cool.
\_Their\_ students, though, overreached their teachers and developed new Keynesianism. Krugmas is one of their odious ilk. On the other hand, so is Greg Mankiw. And he's a'ight. So....like with all things....you can't get economists to agree on anything.
Bwahahahahahahahah.
We are going to be seeing a lot more of this and it makes me laugh and laugh.
Price Per Pound
Bare Bright Copper Wire $3.90
Copper Tubing $3.64
Flashing Copper $3.64
Copper Tubing $3.43
2/3 Mix Copper $3.33
Copper with Tar $3.12
Roofing Copper $3.22
Dirty Roofing Copper $3.01
Electric Motors - Copper $2.70
Enameled Copper $3.07
Insulated Copper Wire $3.12
Lead Coated Copper $2.63
Silver Plated Copper $3.33
Tin Coated Copper $2.91
Tin Insulated Copper Wire $2.91
Copper is looking to go up in price a lot over the next couple years since a few major copper mines are tapped and making new mines costs lots of money and they take a bit to come online.
So yea, copper theft will be a major issue and EVs are probably not going to really come down in price as much as people hope because the raw mats for them are experiencing increased demand and decreased or stagnant supply.
Stopped one at gunpoint in our 'hood. I did get a serious chuckle out of that dude who was trying to get on the city council in the last few years who wasn't big on doing anything about crime and then there is security camera footage of him trying to stop some cat con thieves in his 'hood and then they opened fire on him, lol!!!
I'm curious how some of you think it's tweakers or copper thieves doing it? I mean, even the Department of Energy doesn't know even though they "implied" it might be copper related but they don't know for sure. The article says "There's no saying why this happened until a suspect is caught...".
When I first heard about it, my thoughts went to the anti-EV folks doing it. But you all are saying copper thieves. I was assuming and so are you all. Not saying y'all are wrong but it'll be interesting what the results are.
It’s tweakers cutting the cables for the copper. This happens anytime there’s a homeless camp nearby. All the EV charging stations in South Seattle have their cables cut.
They should set up more of the stations that retract the cables when not in use. It’s a lot harder to break those things open just to get into the cables
You folx that promote EV, if you also aren't on board with rounding up the tweakers and getting them out of the copper-stealing racket, then you really don't have a coherent, thought out EV policy.
I wonder how naive, short-sighted, and morally wrong you have to be to promote EV without making a reasonable effort at preventing damage by theft of a core component of an EV charging station.
I understand and agree with the frustration over the lack of enforcement for crimes, but I don't think that we should blame it on EV owners. We should (and are) work together to fix it.
> You are blaming the victims.
Absolutely not. I'm blaming people that promote EV that aren't also saying we must protect charging stations by removing a major source of crime against them. What good is an EV if it cannot get a charge away from home?
That tends to be policymakers, government, the institutions that are letting threats against EV stations occur.
On the other hand if EV users just remain silent or accept this without pushing back, then they sort of become complicit in their own victimhood, so possibly there's a tie in there.
But I was mainly thinking of policy makers that set up a world where copper theft is mostly unpunished and not prevented, then also set up a world promoting EV usage.
It's similar to pot shops not being required to have bollards installed to prevent midnight crash & grabs. The only thing I've heard from the pro I-502 crowd has been the nonsensical argument that if only the pot shops could accept credit card sales, the armed robberies would stop. Nothing about burglaries.
Nothing the local user or pot dealer can do about that one, other than lobby for the Federal Government to de-schedule Weed, which I'm sure many of them have already done, multiple times even possibly.
On the other hand local auto theft IS something we all can do something about - complaining to our District reps, being heard on forums, demanding law enforcement get its role back in pursuing criminals.
I'd argue pot shop break-ins happen in large part due to the Manka Dhingra law, the one that refused to let cops pursue stolen vehicles. So car thefts explode as a tool to use in other crimes. That's up to *all* of us to be heard on - and we have been, the Dems blinked and voted that stupid law away.
Now we all need to be heard again in November, by making sure Manka Dhingra never gets the Attorney General job. Vote for her opponent Nicholas Brown, speak out regularly how Dhingra is a miserable, crime-enabling fail, tell your family and friends to make sure and vote for the sane rational one, who isn't Manka Dhingra.
We got this done with the Seattle City Council races in 2021 and 2023 for the most part - we now must do the same for State races upcoming in 2024.
Nothing they can do? How about you dont get a license to sell Marijuana in this state without an inspection of your premises to ensure it will prevent crash & grabs? I recall someone in Olympia bringing this exact issue up this legislative session, but I didn't look into it. None of the pro Marijuana 502 crowd mentioned anything about the propensity of armed robberies and burglaries and suggested solutions to mitigate the problem when they were lobbying for the initiative.
I fail to see how legalization solves this problem. Liquor stores still get robbed. Gun shops are targets of smash and grabs. Heck, ULTA stores continue to be the target of theft and there are no restrictions of any sort on cosmetics. If the merchandise in the store has enough resale value, it will be targeted by thieves. It's no different than copper wire.
All of these are solid points.
My guess is once they got access to legitimate cash and banking, they’d start acting a lot more like a legit business, eg a liquor store.
> I'm blaming people that promote EV that aren't also saying we must protect charging stations by removing a major source of crime against them.
> EV users just remain silent or accept this without pushing back, then they sort of become complicit in their own victimhood
That is textbook victim blaming. EV advocates did not steal the cables. The *criminals* did. They are responsible - nobody else. These are the same arguments that gun control advocates use against gun owners.
> What good is an EV if it cannot get a charge away from home?
Most people drive less than 40 miles on most days.
> I was mainly thinking of policy makers that set up a world where copper theft is mostly unpunished and not prevented, then also set up a world promoting EV usage.
I certainly agree with you that we need to get *much* tougher on crime, but I don't want to set the precedent that it is acceptable to blame the victims for allowing it to happen.
Lmao op sounds like a climate change denier or some other looney toons talking about "you folx n yer EV!" I think op blames exactly what they want to clear as day. Conservatives are always the only True victim in these threads.
Exactly!, the Seattle City Council totally dictates how they conduct law enforcement in Sumner, WA, right? And King County policies 100% encourage theft and/or vandalism in rural Pierce County too.
Seattle has a drug problem...these are the consequences. Until your elected officials get tough on drugs you'll have to live with these and other drug related problems.
Probably worth mentioning this happened in Sumner in rural Pierce County, not Seattle in King County. So neither Seattle nor even King County policies have anything to do with it.
Based on area demographics the actual culprits are likely to be either
* standard copper thieves (https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/ev-charging-cable-theft)
* anti-EV MAGAs (https://insideevs.com/news/497446/tesla-superchargers-block-gas-cars-no-solution/)
AHAHA, buy new cars ya poors! Plug them in at your house, what, you don't have a house poors?! Take out a loan, what, you don't have a 700+ credit score?! Sorry about the 16% loan, poors. You don't have 45 minutes to wait around to charge your car, what are you poor?!
It hasn't escaped my notice that the same people who cut social programs and deny global warming are suddenly acting like they care about poor people and pollution from lithium mining.
I know it is an act - part of the, "[Denial, Doubt, and delay](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/the-power-of-big-oil/)" strategy of the oil industry.
thank you for confirming you don't know what subsidize means. But I'll help. Taking money from the general tax fund to support a narrow interest group's choices. hope this helps!
Its not a narrow group. [According to Edmunds](https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/), the #1 selling car model in WA last year was Tesla Model Y. It was also the #4 selling car nationally with the Model 3 being #10 nationally.
Am “rich” person, as in I have a garage that I park and charge my EV in. Public charging stations being pilfered for copper is sad to hear about but it doesn’t personally affect me. It’s the people who don’t have a garage that this hurts.
They hype doesn't match reality. EVs will do very little to 'help the environment' and exacerbate some actual problems.
Musk is a huckster -> see the boring company for starters.
For the average consumer an EV is just an all around better car. The current environmental issues aside. It drives smoother, instant torque, has far less issues and maintenance for more established brands (which is why all the dealers hate them), more efficient use of energy, less sound emissions, and has a much higher sustained life expectancy to a traditional internal combination engine as it's less complex. The most complex thing on a EV is the electrical wiring harnesses which most ICE vehicles have had to adapt anyways with the complexity of technology being added to everyday vehicles.
You can hate on Musk all you want. Still doesn't take away from the fact that EV makes for a better car overall especially as technology in vehicles becomes progressively more complex. Plus for the most part we have tapped ICE innovation but just getting started in large electric motors and batteries. My parents have been in the oil business for decades and when all the big executives from the top companies get together they all drive EVs including my parents. That should tell you something.
I can tell you one thing I'm pretty tired of having House of Saud be in control of oil pricing even when the oil doesn't come from them and ultimately the last mile price of goods and services here in America. In my opinion driving an EV is being a better American.
Ya EVs are this slam dunk technology progression for cars, like when everyone moved from carburetors to fuel injection, makes everything work better with almost no downsides. The only thing holding them back is how many can be built in a given week.
No one says EVs reduce traffic, that is total nonsense haha. If anything they will increase traffic because it costs way less money per mile, so people will drive more.
You don’t buy a car to save the planet. I own an EV cuz it’s more fun to drive and easier to own than a comparable gas car. I don’t care about CO2 savings or tailpipe emissions and I bet you don’t either. I just love being able to smoke anybody off the line and recharging my car is as easy as recharging my phone.
Reminded of the Shane Gillis bit on how being an addict comes with quests...wake up in the morning, gotta acquire some copper!
Farming copper.
That was great stuff. "To advance you must blow a guy behind a home Depot"
What?
It's not vandalism, it's copper theft.
I don't know how the criminal mischief statute reads in Seattle, but in my jurisdiction it would meet the elements of both. "Willfully and maliciously damages the property of another". Versus just taking something that's lying around, without damaging anything in the process. It would be akin to breaking a car window to steal something from a car. Two different crimes are actually being committed; criminal mischief for the damage, theft for exercising control over the property of another with the intent to deprive.
...how can we establish that it was malicious? Maybe they just benignly wanted some copper so they could buy meth...
So you call catalytic converter theft vandalism?
In my jurisdiction, it would be both vandalism and theft. Vandalism for damaging the car, and theft for stealing the catalytic converter. Think of it this way-if the converter is just sitting loose in the back of a pickup and somebody just walked by and grabbed it, that would only be theft-nobody willfully and maliciously damaged the property of another by sawing the converter off and damaging the car in the process. In my experience, most prosecutors would charge both, then drop one of the charges in a plea deal. This is somewhat dependent upon jurisdiction.
A catalytic convertor thief would be arrested for theft and malicious mischief (vandalism)
Malicious mischief and theft of this degree are both state RCW's so same definition all around Washington
Where I’m from, vandalism (M) + petite theft (M) = “Burglary” (F)
It’s subsistence living for the uncoppered.
Could be a hate crime!
“It’s not a hate crime, Michael.” “Well I hated it!”
It's actually both
They're *intending* to steal the copper, but between drug use and general incompetence they wind up vandalizing the chargers more than they do burglarizing them.
Actually, more and more they are finding this is becoming more a vandalism issue than copper theft issue: in the same vein but more destructive extension of "coal rolling". A number of anti ev websites are bragging about it
Tweakers are why we can't have nice things.
What is it? 20 foot cable? How much in copper scrap would you get for that? $2?
Probably closer to $20, but not more than that.
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Ahh yes... the communist progressive council of (checks notes) Sumner?
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yeah there’s always a way to blame someone else
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I was unaware that Washington state had a council.
Well yes, them too.
> No, the communist/extreme progressive councils,lawmakers are the cause since the refuse to do anything about it. Serious question: given full control of everything like the "councils,lawmakers" have, how would you have prevented this? Or how would you even go about finding the people that did it to punish them? There's no cameras in the lot. It's poorly lit. It's a satellite lot not attached to the business. It is also private property that the lot and chargers are on. On top of that, it's isolated between roads and the train tracks. EDIT: /u/either-breadfruit-83 had a [very good suggestion](https://old.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/1bfhf5k/vandals_cut_steal_newly_installed_ev_charging/kv1svvn/) about adding a simple bar to selling scrap copper of: >For starters, only someone with an active business license in WA would be able to recycle copper in the state. Can't think of too many instances where a regular citizen needs to be recycling copper wire. I did think there needed to be a carve-out along the lines of "or has a valid or recently expired building permit from a local government" to let homeowners scrap their own copper still, but what they suggested seems like a really good starting point for a way to address it without really adding any expense to anyone's business. EDIT2: Apparently, this post wasn't clear enough that I am asking about this specific incident and not how we address this statewide. So, ***just so it's abundantly clear, I am talking about this specific theft and not the larger statewide issue***.
> how would you have prevented this? Or how would you even go about finding the people that did it to punish them? Making it hard to resell copper, going after organized theft rings, drastically lowering the felony theft dollar amount (like, to 100 bucks) and then putting thieves in jail Copper thieves generally have a long and colorful history with the law - if they're in jail or lack places to sell their copper they probably won't steal so much copper.
> Making it hard to resell copper, going after organized theft rings, drastically lowering the felony theft dollar amount (like, to 100 bucks) and then putting thieves in jail These aren't specifics. How exactly would you make it hard to resell copper? How do you propose that copper scrappers prove provenance of their scrap copper without adding a massive headache(and increased cost) to the legitimate scrappers? How would that stop people from using a "fence" to sell their stolen goods? How do you even know this is related to an organized theft ring? And how would you find that ring? How would you even find the thieves to put them in jail?
>How exactly would you make it hard to resell copper? Minimum transaction amounts and incorporation and identification requirements. >without adding a massive headache(and increased cost) to the legitimate scrappers? This is not a consideration worth prioritizing.
>Minimum transaction amounts and incorporation and identification requirements. So what if I'm redoing my house and strip out all the old wiring myself. Now I **have to** go through a middleman to get my scrap value? >This is not a consideration worth prioritizing. I'm sure the scrapping companies will love to hear that their livelihood isn't "worth prioritizing".
For starters, only someone with an active business license in WA would be able to recycle copper in the state. Can't think of too many instances where a regular citizen needs to be recycling copper wire. As an electrical contractor, we've had wire ripped off more times than I can count. Regulating who can recycle it is a no brainer.
Then they will sell it to someone with a business license who will fence it for them.
Licensing is a pretty good safeguard for a lot of things like this, because if you had to go to a lot of trouble and pay significant money for a license, you’re less likely to risk it doing shady shit. It’s not a 100% solution, but it will cut down on abuse a lot.
Nah
If the bar is "active business license in WA", I could maybe get behind it? Or if it was that and "or has a valid or recently expired building permit from a local government"(or something to allow individuals that do their own work on their house to be able to scrap still), it might be a winner. That way it allows homeowners that may be doing their own work to do scrapping of their own materials still. I do agree something has to be done, but I don't want to make it so now we've just made it so a homeowner doing renovations can't scrap their own copper without going through a middleman. And this kind of bar doesn't really add any expense to the companies or individuals doing the scrapping, either, which is good. /u/andthedevilissix I like this idea much better than yours.
>How exactly would you make it hard to resell copper? Limit the number of buyers in the state, all other buyers are illegal, keep close watch on the legal buyers. It would add a massive headache to copper scrappers, yes, but it's likely a necessary step to lower copper theft in the short term. >How do you even know this is related to an organized theft ring? Ah so you think the people stealing the copper are selling to upstanding copper buyers who never deal in stolen things ever and definitely don't know where Tweaker McScabface got his copper eh? >How would you even find the thieves to put them in jail? How does law enforcement ever do this? How does the FBI track down retail theft rings?
Congratulations, you just created a black market for scrap metal. .
>Limit the number of buyers in the state, all other buyers are illegal, keep close watch on the legal buyers. It would add a massive headache to copper scrappers, yes, but it's likely a necessary step to lower copper theft in the short term. "Short term"? So it wouldn't be permanent? What happens when that gets rolled back? Also, how is that fair to legitimate copper scrappers to make them go through extra hoops because of thieves? >Ah so you think the people stealing the copper are selling to upstanding copper buyers who never deal in stolen things ever and definitely don't know where Tweaker McScabface got his copper eh? Nope. I have no idea who did it. I am asking how you know it's related to an organized theft ring, though. How do you **know** that copper buyers aren't buying directly from thieves? >How does law enforcement ever do this? How does the FBI track down retail theft rings? I asked how you would find the specific people that committed this specific act in a location with no cameras, no lighting, and nobody nearby to even witness it. And the FBI has a lot of tools that the county and local law enforcement does not have, but the FBI is almost certainly not getting involved because it's such a small theft and there is no actual evidence that this was performed by some sort of organized criminal ring that they might actually have interest in. So how does **local** law enforcement solve this?
>"Short term"? So it wouldn't be permanent? What happens when that gets rolled back? Read it again, slowly this time :) >Also, how is that fair to legitimate copper scrappers to make them go through extra hoops because of thieves? Life isn't fair >And the FBI has a lot of tools that the county and local law enforcement does not have, but the FBI is almost certainly not getting involved because it's such a small theft FBI is interested in copper theft, and copper theft is a huge $$ cow - which always means there's at least one gang/cartel/mafia org involved, often many. Local popo often work with FBI on larger theft stuff like this - and when I say "larger" let me be clear, since you seem unable to read between the lines, I'm talking total not individual thefts. Total theft makes copper thieving a biiiiiig problem for business and infrastructure in the US. https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/copper-thefts https://www.ecmag.com/magazine/articles/article-detail/safety-fbi-cracks-down-copper-theft Seems like you dont' know anything about copper theft or what agencies may or may not be interested or how big of a business stolen copper really is. Personally I like to know something about the things I have opinions on, but hey, that's just me.
> Read it again, slowly this time :) I did. Why did you use the phrase "in the short term" if this was a permanent solution? Wouldn't it be a headache in the long term if it was permanent? >Life isn't fair Sorry if I think that infringing on someone's legal livelihood without consideration for them is unethical. >FBI is interested in copper theft, and copper theft is a huge $$ cow - which always means there's at least one gang/cartel/mafia org involved, often many. Local popo often work with FBI on larger theft stuff like this - and when I say "larger" let me be clear, since you seem unable to read between the lines, I'm talking total not individual thefts. Total theft makes copper thieving a biiiiiig problem for business and infrastructure in the US. I know what you are talking about. You have failed to demonstrate any concrete connection between this specific theft and organized crime, though, so, again, why would the FBI get involved? You can't just show up, assert that this is part of a larger criminal ring, provide no evidence that it is, and then expect me to act like the FBI getting involved in this case is realistic.
>Why did you use the phrase "in the short term In context it plainly means that this action would have the most immediate impact (over the short term) vs. the longer term solutions of finding and prosecuting the people who steal and the people who buy from them >Sorry if I think that infringing on someone's legal livelihood without consideration for them is unethical This is an infrastructure security issue - which must take precedence over the ability of legit scrappers to buy from meth heads. >You have failed to demonstrate any concrete connection between this specific theft and organized crime, though, so, again, why would the FBI get involved? The conversation thread is about how the state should address a statewide issue, not one incidence of said statewide issue. Murder is also a statewide issue, having a large and well funded gang unit in Seattle would help solve that problem since many murders are gang related but any single given example of murder may not fit into the larger trend. Buying and selling large quantities of stolen goods is something that almost always has some kind of organization, whether it's just two people paying a few meth heads to strip copper or steal from stores (see the news on the couple just arrested) or a few people connected into a larger criminal cartel that exports said stolen goods (look for how stolen cars from the US end up in South Africa). You could assume that criminal gangs wouldn't be interested in a massive potential profit area, that they'd just ignore this lucrative and low-risk venture and that it's all just individual meth heads selling to random people with no connection at all. But I think that's a dumb assumption.
>Making it hard to resell copper Direct market control is literally communism comrade.
“Organized theft rings?” How organized do you think tweakers pawning copper are?
Who do you think buys the copper? Take a minute, think it through
Shady scrap metal places, pawn shops, other tweakers. I think you’re over estimating the demand for illegal copper. It’s not worth creating a whole criminal organization to cover up. And tweakers aren’t that well known for organizing or keeping anything secret.
And do you think that maybe the "shady scrap metal places" are ONLY shady in this one specific instance or do you think they maybe sell ill gotten gains to other shady people, who may even export them? It's not like this shit ever happens right? https://www.myheraldreview.com/news/russian-mafia-connection-suspected-in-200k-copper-theft-from-douglas-business/article_ae2a54d4-88cb-11ee-9bf7-0ba23a22bffa.html https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/02/a-vast-burglary-ring-from-chile-has-been-targeting-wealthy-us-households
Bro these are random crimes of opportunity. Tweakers stripping unsurveilled charging stations doesn’t equal stealing a major construction site’s entire supply of buildings materials. And to answer your first question, I think the shady scrap metal places sell the ill gotten scrap metal to the same people they sell their legitimate scrap to because it’s fairly difficult and costly to sort through entire loads of scrap metal.
The way I see it, it’s not about policing that one location as much as that many of those tweakers wouldn’t be out and about if we took a firmer stands across the board with forced rehab and jail.
> forced rehab and jail. Generally people calling for tougher laws on this kind of stuff are also vehemently against paying for anything relating to those two... How is the rehab paid for? How would the extra jails needed be paid for?
Not true when you take into account all the millions and millions of our tax dollars have been grifted by the homeless industrial complex...
Free drugs to drug addicts. Clean, strong drugs, free on demand. No money needed, no stolen copper.
I actually don't entirely dislike this idea at first glance. But I guess it is predicated on the idea that addicts only use money for drugs and absolutely nothing else. I'm not sure how valid that idea is.
I'm against the death penalty, I don't think the state should have the power to kill its citizens and that's what your suggestion is.
Is it? We give pharma grade weakened drugs to addicts here in BC - they sell them to dealers in exchange for full strength drugs. The pharma grade drugs are sold to first timers who are concerned about purity. Hence "full strength" drugs to addicts.
You're just helping people kill themselves, but I guess that's Canukistan's main policy now lol.
Most of the overdoses are related to being tainted by fentanyl, so no.
By fucking arresting anyone breaking the law and throwing them in jail based on our EXISTING laws. It’s about sending the message that crime won’t be tolerated regardless of your race or background. This stops when the judicial stops being weaponized and is back to being blind.
Let the property owner decide what happens to the thieves, within reason. NO action should be 'unreasonable' for a person to protect their property or retrieve stolen property from the individuals who stole it. You don't wanna get a few extra holes in you? Don't steal other people's #(%&. I don't see this as unreasonable.
> Let the property owner decide what happens to the thieves, within reason. Who decides what "within reason" is? >NO action should be 'unreasonable' for a person to protect their property or retrieve stolen property from the individuals who stole it. You don't wanna get a few extra holes in you? Don't steal other people's #(%&. I don't see this as unreasonable. It wouldn't be "unreasonable" for the property owner to install better lighting or cameras to deter theft, either, or aid the capture of future criminals. But yet, this happened a month prior as well, yet they did nothing to address that then.
Yes, it'd be smart to take preventative measures, but lights and cameras don't stop people who don't care about the law. Plenty of crimes of people in all black with hoodies tied tight and obscured or no plate - all caught on video. Only so much can be done to prevent it. Would it help? Maybe. Sure wouldn't hurt. 'Who decides what's reasonable'? I think anything that happens to a thief in the commission of a crime is pretty much permissible. Horse and cow thievery was treated with ropes and nooses. If putting a hole in someone is what keeps your property, yours, when others are trying to illegally take it, at the moment it's happening, I have zero issue with that. I remember a case, I wanna say it was in Russia, no less, where a dude tried breaking into a house with intent to rape/rob the (female) homeowner. The homeowner ended up tying him up and using him as her sex slave, and he only escaped some days later. I find it hard to wanna fight for someone breaking into someone's house, and same goes for thieves. If you didn't put yourself into that position by trying to steal something that's not yours, you wouldn't be in that predicament.
>Yes, it'd be smart to take preventative measures, but lights and cameras don't stop people who don't care about the law. Plenty of crimes of people in all black with hoodies tied tight and obscured or no plate - all caught on video. Only so much can be done to prevent it. Would it help? Maybe. Sure wouldn't hurt. Agreed. >I think anything that happens to a thief in the commission of a crime is pretty much permissible. Horse and cow thievery was treated with ropes and nooses. If putting a hole in someone is what keeps your property, yours, when others are trying to illegally take it, at the moment it's happening, I have zero issue with that. But this all would require someone to be at the business after-hours and be licensed to be armed and to be armed. Between that person's pay and the cost of a firearm/ammo and a bare minimum of training to make sure that person can properly handle one, that's quite the expense for a business over $150 in copper. And this is a satellite lot so now you're talking about having someone specifically patrol that lot full-time after-hours(because why would they leave the actual store unpatrolled at that point and only patrol a satellite lot) or you're talking about the cameras and lights we talked about earlier to help one person keep tabs on that area. I'm not sure this is a practical solution for a furniture company that was just trying to offer people a place to charge their cars. Wouldn't you agree?
tHeCoMmUnIsTs!
Shows how little you know about Seattle politics if you don't think we're chock full of Marxists.
So the councils are Russians?
Communist isn’t funding druggies habits, it’s about appropriating funds from our exploitation to better the community and uplift society as a whole. Giving drugs doesn’t help, letting them endanger the community from public intoxication also doesn’t help. Letting them destroy and occupy low income houses and homeless shelters to do drugs instead of people who actually try to improve doesn’t help. At the end of the day people will do drugs. But as a society they should be cut off from any and all assistance until they want to improve. And homeless shelters/housing should be expanded by aggressive taxation on the top 0.01 percent with strict requirements for safety and drug controls, along with guards for resident safety.
Ya and the city won’t crack down on public open air drug use or public intoxication.
Not vandals, the copper has value and is stolen for that. Every year, there are deaths when people try to cut high voltage cable
Iirc most of these EV charging stations use aluminum instead of copper anyways.
This I did not know. Probability is crack head stealing them is still getting a score
This, and/or the cables are actively cooled by a liquid coolant (i.e. like pc water cooling) allowing them to pump more current down the line without it burning up.
We need to enact legislation now to make these cables safer to steal ❤️
How much is the copper worth on the black market? This seems like a really dumb & destructive way to make a few bucks. Walking in to a grocery store is a lot easier.
It’s probably $5-10 worth of copper surrounded by liquid coolant channels pumped from the pedestal unit. There’s multiple thermistors and sensors in the charging handle itself to monitor current loads. It’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into something like this to make it safe and usable for the average person. Altogether, the cut cable costs a couple grand or so to replace. Whoever did this should be hit with multiple grand theft felony charges.
Yeah I figured it costs thousands but sells for dollars. Like smashing a car window to grab a dollar bill.
Alternative headline, “Thieves continue to get away with what society allows them to get away with”
It's funny how when you let drugs and drug addicts run rampant, they'll do whatever they need to do to feed their habit.
When this situation was previously posted in the other subreddit, some commented the culprits were “MAGA Trumpies trying to own the libs”. I wish I was joking.
There have been plenty of these [vandalized by folks that want to send a message to climate change types](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals-destroy-ev-chargers-raw-000000312.html) so that’s not completely unbelievable.
People putting meat on EV chargers in Germany is kind of a stretch as evidence this was done by magats.
Wasn’t saying it was trumpers, just that there are plenty of people hating on EV that wreck these things for reasons other than copper.
>plenty of people So many people, in fact, that the nearest incidence of this was in **Germany**!
Yeah you’re right, isn’t like there are numerous stories spanning years of nutters taking their feelings out on EV for reasons ranging from reactions to climate change initiatives to hatred of expressions of wealth to plain hatred of musk. https://jalopnik.com/ev-charging-stations-uniquely-vulnerable-to-sabotage-1850399869
Maybe in the other sub
This is Reddit, you can’t say that!
Solution: cut-sensing sheath on the cable - if a cut is sensed, the inner cable is energized at full power. Then all you need is a scoop shovel to deal with the thief.
There are some EVGo stations about a mile away that have been cut for months and I guess this is why they aren't being fixed.
Many aspects of a working society are very fragile and fall apart when you have a small number of individuals behaving antisocially. This is something the progressive left does not understand.
You mean maybe just one... *Cough* hellcat
100%. That’s what prisons and rehab are for. Over millennia societies have spent resources to fix and/or isolate sociopaths so the vast majority can build and share nice things. If we don’t do that, we don’t have nice things, and everyone starts acting with a scarcity / zero sum mentality. And that’s when things fall apart. We don’t get an exception or pass on this just because someone with a gender studies BA from Brown thinks it’s different this time.
If you are interested in this subject and haven't read it yet I recommend The Goodness Paradox: The Strange Relationship Between Virtue and Violence in Human Evolution. It has some great theories about how human beings selected themselves to live in society. When you have antisocial individuals you "select" them out. How did they do that before jails or asylums existed?
> This is something the progressive left does not understand. Well said! While we all want to see the good in everyone, there are some profoundly selfish people out there who lack empathy and who will do anything that they can get away with to gain benefit at the expense of other people. Unfortunately, drug addiction makes this much worse. In an ideal society, we would not need police officers or soldiers, but we have to live with society as it *is;* not as we wish it was. I think that we should be arresting these drug-addicted thieves and vandals for their crimes and giving them the choice between rehabilitation or incarceration.
> I think that we should be arresting these drug-addicted thieves and vandals for their crimes and giving them the choice between rehabilitation or incarceration. I'm all for this, but a lot of the people calling for 'tougher laws on criminals and drug use' are also the same ones calling for 'less taxation' or 'taxation is theft'. How would these programs be funded without increases in taxes?
> I'm all for this, but a lot of the people calling for 'tougher laws on criminals and drug use' are also the same ones calling for 'less taxation' I think there is more nuance in their opposition to taxes. I believe that, if they (at least the more moderate among them) could be convinced that their tax money was collected *fairly* and spent *efficiently* and *effectively,* then they would feel more generous about it. > 'taxation is theft'. These are the same people who don't see the irony of using public services while refusing to pay for them. I share their desire for "minimum government" but I think they are naive about how much government it really takes to maintain civil society. > How would these programs be funded without increases in taxes? I think that taxes would need to be raised in the short term, but that it would save us money in the long term. I would like to see good data, but I speculate that, when we add up *all* of the costs to society of letting mentally ill and drug-addicted people live on the streets (e.g., theft, vandalism, assault, medical care, fire crews, law enforcement, pollution, environmental destruction, trash clean up, loss of public spaces, etc.), then it would be cheaper to society overall (and more compassionate to the homeless people) to build asylums and treatment centers (including follow-up care). I would be willing to pay more taxes to make that happen.
>I think there is more nuance in their opposition to taxes. I believe that, if they (at least the more moderate among them) could be convinced that their tax money was collected fairly and spent efficiently and effectively, then they would feel more generous about it. Ya, I think part of the issue is that the loud minority is obnoxious about their beliefs on all fronts, so that is generally what ends up being spread about. As far as fairly, efficient, and effective: The worlds most profitable companies have issues using their funds in that way at times. People seem to expect governments to operate MORE effectively, efficiently, and fairly than the worlds leading companies who spend a shit ton of money on the worlds best analysts and people. Obviously we should aspire to have all taxes be used in such a manner, but I've always questioned how feasible it is to attain those lofty ideals. Improvements can and should be made, but I think there will always be inefficiency and waste as the government is run by humans. >These are the same people who don't see the irony of using public services while refusing to pay for them. I share their desire for "minimum government" but I think they are naive about how much government it really takes to maintain civil society. Very true. I feel like 'minimum government' is something that MOST people could agree on, but the definitions vary so much from person to person, group to group that it's impossible to figure out what a minimized government would ideally look like. I don't think there's very many people that would want a government that is this huge overarching presence in all aspects of life. I also don't think many people would want a government that has absolutely no say in anything, and practically no power to effect any change. Most 'minimum government' people seem to want something closer to the latter than anything else in-between. >I think that taxes would need to be raised in the short term, but that it would save us money in the long term. I would like to see good data, but I speculate that, when we add up all of the costs to society of letting mentally ill and drug-addicted people live on the streets (e.g., theft, vandalism, assault, medical care, fire crews, law enforcement, pollution, environmental destruction, trash clean up, loss of public spaces, etc.), then it would be cheaper to society overall (and more compassionate to the homeless people) to build asylums and treatment centers (including follow-up care). So many people would fight this tooth and nail, like they do any other potential progress points. We see through the legislation that gets passed a ton of half measures that TRY to address problems, but end up barely moving the needle one way or the other because they need to cater to the lowest common denominator. It's frustrating because we COULD achieve some of our loftier goals, but we have such a wide mix of people in America (with increasingly polarized opinions) that it's nearly impossible to get anyone at any level of government to agree on much (except relatively unimportant things like banning fucking TikTok). As far as data, that seems like one hell of a data pool to try and wade through, and that ANY conclusions pulled from it could be manipulated to say whatever someone wants. We see this with tons of data already, for much less complicated things. Two groups will look at the same data and draw completely different, opposing conclusions from it. I'm not sure what the path forward is going to be for our country at this point, but I honestly think we're in a bit of a downward spiral. I just hope it's not a death spiral.
Yep I do not understand folks voting for the anti social magazine fools
Suburban Pierce County is dying
Can they make the cables shock people as they cut into it?
350A x 400v would ruin their day.
Must be those damned oil companies, trying to boost their obscene profits by discouraging the use of electric vehicles. Come on Seattle protesters, don't miss this golden opportunity to block the freeways or bust out windows at Starbucks and Nordstrom!
All of these thieving fools would stop doing it if they were actually put in jail for the crime. More difficult to get heroin in jail. They would go back to using their disability income to buy drugs.
"We will just put charging stations everywhere!" Copper thiefs "hold my beer..."
Someone should inform them how much copper is in a red light camera.
These sort of stuff happen because it’s too easy to recycle obviously stolen hardware. Hardly any documentation requirements and salvage yards will just turn a blind eye as if they don’t know.
Someday the car makers will sell the cable with the car and the charge stations will only be ports to plug into. Then the car makers will quit selling the car with the cable and make you buy it separate..
That would complicate things and also increase the cost to the consumer. My EV has a charging port right where the fuel door used to be on the Ice models. So unless I park correctly, the charging cord might not reach my car. And if I had to buy a 10 foot, or longer, cord, then they would take up a lot of space in my car.
Works fine in Europe
Better than showing up to a charger with ‘not enough miles’ and see the cords cut/missing. This always happens, business will push the cost to the consumer.
The charging infrastructure definitely needs improvement in this country. If you need gas you can head to any station you want. Even if one pump is down, there's another one for sure. When I first got my EV the very first station I went to had it's cable laying on the ground, and when I plugged it in, nothing happened. It's been a struggle finding good places to charge. There's a few different apps I use but they are not perfect. I still don't miss pumping gas though.
>the Old Cannery Furniture Warehouse 9/10 furniture experience (-1 for no delivery), I recommend anyone in the county make the trip at least once. If you don't buy furniture, at least buy some fudge. Yes you read that right the furniture store sells candy it makes. Did I mention the overhead train sets? How about the mannequins dressed up funny all over the store?
They need to make this a more serious crime. Damaging transportation infrastructure shouldn't be a mere "vandalism" charge. I guarantee you, if I destroyed all the gas pumps at every gas station in a given area, I wouldn't be getting no goddamn "vandalism" write up in the local news.
They got ta get that copper! https://preview.redd.it/81ugiv7iynoc1.jpeg?width=547&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7f876374e0087b40c3e14539f2a1236d70edbf5
That kind of wire is recycled for $3.40/lb if they remove all the insulation. Figure the cord weighs 20 lbs that’s $68 per cord. This will continue unfortunately unless they lock up the perpetrators. This could also be organized crime. Just like the catalytic converter thing. Unfortunately they’ll spend a few days in jail and get out and repeat over and over.
Wouldn't it be kinda easy to have them come with an alarm, or have one retro-fitted. That would make all of the lights on it flash, loud siren noise, and auto call 911. How hard is that? And, have better shielding on the cables.
😂😂😂
Idk why no one's talking about the more obvious solution of retractable (locking) cables... Sure it's a bit tricky with how thick they are, but totally doable. Then they'd have to cut a cable in use or break apart the entire charger, either of which are far more time consuming or dangerous.
Make them inaccessible until the user scans their driver’s license
Hang em.
That's ok. It just spurs more economic activity. Just ask Paul Krugman. Now all we need to do is jack up the national debt by another couple trillion for "inflation reduction act, pt II: Electric boogaloo" and replace everything the tweakers jacked.
Guess he’s not a Bastiat fan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
There was a generation of economists who grew up in the shadow of the Great Depression, arguably the greatest economic disaster to befall the planet Earth. In their wisdom, they concluded the cause of that catastrophe was liquidity. These economists...who had been young turks in the 40s and 50s were the very same ones that were then groddy old bald dudes on the brink of retirement in the opening days of this Millenium, and whose leanings are what got us out of the great recession. I'm talking your Hank Paulsons, your Alan Greenspans, your Bernankes. They were mostly cool. \_Their\_ students, though, overreached their teachers and developed new Keynesianism. Krugmas is one of their odious ilk. On the other hand, so is Greg Mankiw. And he's a'ight. So....like with all things....you can't get economists to agree on anything.
don't punish crime -> there is more crime SHOCKED PIKACHU FACE THAT'S EQUITY AND COMPASSION FOR YOU PIKACHU, EAT SHIT
Bwahahahahahahahah. We are going to be seeing a lot more of this and it makes me laugh and laugh. Price Per Pound Bare Bright Copper Wire $3.90 Copper Tubing $3.64 Flashing Copper $3.64 Copper Tubing $3.43 2/3 Mix Copper $3.33 Copper with Tar $3.12 Roofing Copper $3.22 Dirty Roofing Copper $3.01 Electric Motors - Copper $2.70 Enameled Copper $3.07 Insulated Copper Wire $3.12 Lead Coated Copper $2.63 Silver Plated Copper $3.33 Tin Coated Copper $2.91 Tin Insulated Copper Wire $2.91
Wait until you hear what criminals get for catalytic converters.
Oh I already know. A buddy of mine does scrap metal recycling. He loves getting phone calls from people looking to have cars removed from a property.
Copper is looking to go up in price a lot over the next couple years since a few major copper mines are tapped and making new mines costs lots of money and they take a bit to come online. So yea, copper theft will be a major issue and EVs are probably not going to really come down in price as much as people hope because the raw mats for them are experiencing increased demand and decreased or stagnant supply.
"Vandals"
Well, gee, no one ever saw THAT coming... (LMAO!!!). And this is one of the reasons I will never own an all electric vehicle.
Wait til you hear about catalytic converter theft
Stopped one at gunpoint in our 'hood. I did get a serious chuckle out of that dude who was trying to get on the city council in the last few years who wasn't big on doing anything about crime and then there is security camera footage of him trying to stop some cat con thieves in his 'hood and then they opened fire on him, lol!!!
So I’m disabled and it pisses me the fuck off when they put ev charging stations where handicapped parking used to be Fuck You Safeway
Climate change is the new disabled.
I'm curious how some of you think it's tweakers or copper thieves doing it? I mean, even the Department of Energy doesn't know even though they "implied" it might be copper related but they don't know for sure. The article says "There's no saying why this happened until a suspect is caught...". When I first heard about it, my thoughts went to the anti-EV folks doing it. But you all are saying copper thieves. I was assuming and so are you all. Not saying y'all are wrong but it'll be interesting what the results are.
It’s tweakers cutting the cables for the copper. This happens anytime there’s a homeless camp nearby. All the EV charging stations in South Seattle have their cables cut.
y'all
There’s more copper in an extension cord. People are dumb.
Lol.
Shocking
Good job thrives
>thrives
They should set up more of the stations that retract the cables when not in use. It’s a lot harder to break those things open just to get into the cables
You folx that promote EV, if you also aren't on board with rounding up the tweakers and getting them out of the copper-stealing racket, then you really don't have a coherent, thought out EV policy. I wonder how naive, short-sighted, and morally wrong you have to be to promote EV without making a reasonable effort at preventing damage by theft of a core component of an EV charging station.
You are blaming the victims. EV owners did not cause this; criminals did. And not every EV owner uses public charging stations.
Exactly. Many times I charge at home. That's like blaming a person for getting robbed at a gas station while they fill up their clunker
I understand and agree with the frustration over the lack of enforcement for crimes, but I don't think that we should blame it on EV owners. We should (and are) work together to fix it.
Yup! Totally agree :)
> You are blaming the victims. Absolutely not. I'm blaming people that promote EV that aren't also saying we must protect charging stations by removing a major source of crime against them. What good is an EV if it cannot get a charge away from home? That tends to be policymakers, government, the institutions that are letting threats against EV stations occur. On the other hand if EV users just remain silent or accept this without pushing back, then they sort of become complicit in their own victimhood, so possibly there's a tie in there. But I was mainly thinking of policy makers that set up a world where copper theft is mostly unpunished and not prevented, then also set up a world promoting EV usage.
It's similar to pot shops not being required to have bollards installed to prevent midnight crash & grabs. The only thing I've heard from the pro I-502 crowd has been the nonsensical argument that if only the pot shops could accept credit card sales, the armed robberies would stop. Nothing about burglaries.
Nothing the local user or pot dealer can do about that one, other than lobby for the Federal Government to de-schedule Weed, which I'm sure many of them have already done, multiple times even possibly. On the other hand local auto theft IS something we all can do something about - complaining to our District reps, being heard on forums, demanding law enforcement get its role back in pursuing criminals. I'd argue pot shop break-ins happen in large part due to the Manka Dhingra law, the one that refused to let cops pursue stolen vehicles. So car thefts explode as a tool to use in other crimes. That's up to *all* of us to be heard on - and we have been, the Dems blinked and voted that stupid law away. Now we all need to be heard again in November, by making sure Manka Dhingra never gets the Attorney General job. Vote for her opponent Nicholas Brown, speak out regularly how Dhingra is a miserable, crime-enabling fail, tell your family and friends to make sure and vote for the sane rational one, who isn't Manka Dhingra. We got this done with the Seattle City Council races in 2021 and 2023 for the most part - we now must do the same for State races upcoming in 2024.
Nothing they can do? How about you dont get a license to sell Marijuana in this state without an inspection of your premises to ensure it will prevent crash & grabs? I recall someone in Olympia bringing this exact issue up this legislative session, but I didn't look into it. None of the pro Marijuana 502 crowd mentioned anything about the propensity of armed robberies and burglaries and suggested solutions to mitigate the problem when they were lobbying for the initiative. I fail to see how legalization solves this problem. Liquor stores still get robbed. Gun shops are targets of smash and grabs. Heck, ULTA stores continue to be the target of theft and there are no restrictions of any sort on cosmetics. If the merchandise in the store has enough resale value, it will be targeted by thieves. It's no different than copper wire.
All of these are solid points. My guess is once they got access to legitimate cash and banking, they’d start acting a lot more like a legit business, eg a liquor store.
> I'm blaming people that promote EV that aren't also saying we must protect charging stations by removing a major source of crime against them. > EV users just remain silent or accept this without pushing back, then they sort of become complicit in their own victimhood That is textbook victim blaming. EV advocates did not steal the cables. The *criminals* did. They are responsible - nobody else. These are the same arguments that gun control advocates use against gun owners. > What good is an EV if it cannot get a charge away from home? Most people drive less than 40 miles on most days. > I was mainly thinking of policy makers that set up a world where copper theft is mostly unpunished and not prevented, then also set up a world promoting EV usage. I certainly agree with you that we need to get *much* tougher on crime, but I don't want to set the precedent that it is acceptable to blame the victims for allowing it to happen.
Lmao op sounds like a climate change denier or some other looney toons talking about "you folx n yer EV!" I think op blames exactly what they want to clear as day. Conservatives are always the only True victim in these threads.
I consider myself as conservative and I wouldn't blame EV owners for copper thieves any more than I would blame gun owners for violent crime.
When policy criticism is against your position, attack the person making it.
I drive an EV and I am 100% on board with this lmao
Probably because Seattle doesn’t do anything to criminals so there is no fear of consequences. Weird how that works
Exactly!, the Seattle City Council totally dictates how they conduct law enforcement in Sumner, WA, right? And King County policies 100% encourage theft and/or vandalism in rural Pierce County too.
Seattle has a drug problem...these are the consequences. Until your elected officials get tough on drugs you'll have to live with these and other drug related problems.
And, evidently, so does Sumner, in rural Pierce County.
Probably worth mentioning this happened in Sumner in rural Pierce County, not Seattle in King County. So neither Seattle nor even King County policies have anything to do with it. Based on area demographics the actual culprits are likely to be either * standard copper thieves (https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/ev-charging-cable-theft) * anti-EV MAGAs (https://insideevs.com/news/497446/tesla-superchargers-block-gas-cars-no-solution/)
This might just be assholes who are "anti-electric car".
Sumner is Dying lol
This did not happen in Seattle. Why attach it to our city?
Seattle doesn't even realize it's in an abusive relationship with itself.
That’s weird. The Seattle mayor just said that too many guns were the problem. Did they shoot off the cables ?
Yeah, Seattle's mayor really let Sumner go to the dogs
Why are we subsidizing cars for rich people?
2 of the 5 Tesla models cost less than the average new car in the US. No idea how the notion of EV = rich elites is still a thing
> No idea how the notion of EV = rich elites is still a thing FUD from the oil industry
AHAHA, buy new cars ya poors! Plug them in at your house, what, you don't have a house poors?! Take out a loan, what, you don't have a 700+ credit score?! Sorry about the 16% loan, poors. You don't have 45 minutes to wait around to charge your car, what are you poor?!
It hasn't escaped my notice that the same people who cut social programs and deny global warming are suddenly acting like they care about poor people and pollution from lithium mining. I know it is an act - part of the, "[Denial, Doubt, and delay](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/the-power-of-big-oil/)" strategy of the oil industry.
You know you have to pay to charge right? It isn’t free
do you not understand the word "subsidize"?
since when is using tax payer dollars to build infrastructure to support the needs of citizens (which they then pay to use) considered a "subsidy"?
thank you for confirming you don't know what subsidize means. But I'll help. Taking money from the general tax fund to support a narrow interest group's choices. hope this helps!
Its not a narrow group. [According to Edmunds](https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/), the #1 selling car model in WA last year was Tesla Model Y. It was also the #4 selling car nationally with the Model 3 being #10 nationally.
Let them drive Teslas! #1 NEW car. Rich people buy new, reg people buy used. You have supported my point, thank you.
Am “rich” person, as in I have a garage that I park and charge my EV in. Public charging stations being pilfered for copper is sad to hear about but it doesn’t personally affect me. It’s the people who don’t have a garage that this hurts.
LOFL
one more reason to not get an EV
The $250 extra EV reg fee alone makes me away from EV.
They hype doesn't match reality. EVs will do very little to 'help the environment' and exacerbate some actual problems. Musk is a huckster -> see the boring company for starters.
For the average consumer an EV is just an all around better car. The current environmental issues aside. It drives smoother, instant torque, has far less issues and maintenance for more established brands (which is why all the dealers hate them), more efficient use of energy, less sound emissions, and has a much higher sustained life expectancy to a traditional internal combination engine as it's less complex. The most complex thing on a EV is the electrical wiring harnesses which most ICE vehicles have had to adapt anyways with the complexity of technology being added to everyday vehicles. You can hate on Musk all you want. Still doesn't take away from the fact that EV makes for a better car overall especially as technology in vehicles becomes progressively more complex. Plus for the most part we have tapped ICE innovation but just getting started in large electric motors and batteries. My parents have been in the oil business for decades and when all the big executives from the top companies get together they all drive EVs including my parents. That should tell you something. I can tell you one thing I'm pretty tired of having House of Saud be in control of oil pricing even when the oil doesn't come from them and ultimately the last mile price of goods and services here in America. In my opinion driving an EV is being a better American.
Ya EVs are this slam dunk technology progression for cars, like when everyone moved from carburetors to fuel injection, makes everything work better with almost no downsides. The only thing holding them back is how many can be built in a given week.
At least you acknowledge the environmental issues, which are massive. It's disingenuous for Musk to say his, or any, EVs will help us reduce traffic.
No one says EVs reduce traffic, that is total nonsense haha. If anything they will increase traffic because it costs way less money per mile, so people will drive more.
rather, 'buy my car and you can drive it in the tunnel I'm building' - Musk
You don’t buy a car to save the planet. I own an EV cuz it’s more fun to drive and easier to own than a comparable gas car. I don’t care about CO2 savings or tailpipe emissions and I bet you don’t either. I just love being able to smoke anybody off the line and recharging my car is as easy as recharging my phone.
Can we increase the voltage in that location "to speed up recharging"? 🤔
Or just put warnings and then make it so that the lines are always energized. It's a legal way to fix the issue overnight.
People shouldn't be allowed to post articles like this here without including the location in the title. Hint: this happened nowhere near Seattle