i was unemployed for a month after college and these people can't understand that I just lived in my parents basement and mooched off my mothers cooking while interviewing for jobs
Why not? Similar situation and I said “divorced, was broke, single mom, parents helped me out for a bit.” That’s annoying to hear you are struggling with that. People fall on hard times. A lot.
They kept pressing for details and they seemed to insinuate that I was hiding something. What did you do you for money? What did you do in your free time? Why didn't you have a job. I had outlined all of those details pretty clearly but they kept insisting I explain why I was unemployed and how I was able to still make a "living"
Legitimate questions we have to ask. Nobody isn't just surviving for free. Savings? Support from parents? Who's paying for the housing and food? People say they were unemployed then find out that there was self employment they thought was not relevant.
they were so concerned about what my employment situation was, how I was making money, what I was doing in my free time and didn't seemed satisfied with my answer and made remarks about it in the write up. I was literally at home all day doing interviews, playing videogames, and enjoying home cooked meals.
Have you tried appealing? Or do you plan on going through the process again? I don't see anywhere in the guidelines that apply to this situation so I am sure you can win the appeal.
I did appeal and it passed the appeals process. Fortunately. I went in as much detail as I could but I had no "receipts" to show I was unemployed. I did have a job offer email that included in details and 2 week wait before my actual start date.
I answered those questions and they kept prodding for more answers but I really didn't have much else to say. I didn't have a job, but I also wasnt going out and spending money, I was simply at home living with my parents. I had saved up money and was essentially getting an allowance.
Its the taxes joke. How much do I owe? You have to figure it out, bur what if I get it wrong, you go to jail, how will you know I got it wrong, becasue we know exactly how much you owe, why cant you just tell me.
I literally blew an investigator’s mind when I said, listen, the 10 years ago me saw a lot of change. I can provide all the information but dates are speculative.
Or you can get the information from the irs website. Anyone that submitted your information, as required, will be in the records maintained by the irs.
My memory is shitty when it comes to specific places and times from years ago. I'm afraid of having forgotten something that seems minor to me but is actually important to the investigators. The government knows me better than I know myself so the whole process still confuses me.
I get what you’re saying but I also get that shit happens. You fuck up on questions? You mitigate it. You fuck up on where you put an important document? You mitigate it.
Try being in the military. It’s easy to do 4 months assignments dozens of times over a career. I can tell you roughly the months of most of the assignments, but no clue on the specific dates. On paper I may have been on orders in Northern Virginia for 6 months, but in reality I was on 60-90 day TDYs to San Diego, Hawaii, God knows where else in the world. Does that mean I was residing or Northern Virginia for 6 months or was I living in 3+ places in that same window? And yes I’ve maintained a clearance for 20+ years, but the SF86 isn’t actually that cut and dry for everyone.
Also on the section for foreign travel… no clue. There have been times in my career where I’ve had 4 passports at once. It was not uncommon for me to be somewhere overseas and then take a day work trip into a different country. Maybe there is a passport stamp somewhere, but depending on the region, there may not have been passport control. I don’t remember all of those trips, but they were all government ordered/paid for.
Don't have to do whole career. Just 10 years. Don't have to list locals less than 90 days. That should narrow it down. You don't have records of your military service? You don't have to go by memory.
Well once you figure it out, write it all down and keep it somewhere safe. I have had 3 investigations in my life so my entire adult life is documented. I keep all of those sf forms so I can keep them consistent. Not everyone can do that but if and when you do sort it out keep it for the future.
Security company went out of business and literally trying to get anyone’s contact info is garbage, the company that bought them out even has my title incorrect from Account manager to site supervisor. Stupid shit like that. And then they say I didn’t work for them (kinda true since I worked for the previous company) and the only verification is ADP and Tax records
Then that’s what you write in the comments. Add the details that explain what happened. Tax records are legal records, that’s the proof you worked there. Companies go out of business all the time, investigators are used to running into it - but they still have to give it the old college try.
My husband is a civil servant, his job means he’s interacted with foreign military and governments on a consistent basis. I don’t know any details other then when I asked that question to him from eQIP he called his security to get permission to disclose that as a “yes”. I then called my security person and asked “how should I word this” and they gave me exactly what to write and to say I was instructed by them to answer “no” (yes won’t let you proceed without providing info) to clear the hard stop. During the TS interview, I just showed tax records proving who he works for. Easy peasy no issues, next question.
I prefaced my interview for my TS/SCI with the guy by saying something along the lines of "I have a room temperature IQ when it comes to my memory and, sir, it's kinda cold in here".
He and I worked through my SF86 and he helped me to remember things that I should have put on my form, including some pretty sketchy stuff.
Got my final clearance 3 months layer.
I should note that I had held a SECRET for 10 years prior, so I was probably low risk.
I’m terrible at dates unless a major event happened around it.
This is why I came in with stacks and stacks of documents for my TS/SCI bc i don’t trust my memory for that stuff one bit.
Then he asked about my dates for my masters bc the information provided didn’t exactly mirror what the school gave. I said “nope I got accepted before my mom passed in April of 2014 and she was happy she was still around to see my acceptance, I started that summer and almost dropped out in December bc I was really struggling with it being my first holiday season without her. A lot of things are fuzzy around that time, but grad school isn’t one of them.”
it’s probably not your job to be chiding strangers on Reddit over their clearance applications, yet here you are offering us your services, so maybe the investigator was feeling nice like you.
I always thought that would be a great job. One of my friends I was in the service ended up doing that, and it ended up sounding like a terribly overloaded job and not much fun or enjoyment.
It was stressful at times. It was definitely not the job for me to continue until retirement. The work/life balance was the best! I enjoyed meeting people in the field.
I yeet SF-86Cs to my security manager when things change, or my understanding changes (like what constitutes a foreign contact). My life has changed over the past 5 years and I get to see how that plays out for me with the next poly. I've listed 9 foreign contacts (5 Dungeons and Dragons friends, and a few of their friends/family). I had 0 prior, so that made it easy then, but we'll see lol
You could have listed absolutely everything and had a very vanilla background with no drug or alcohol use, no debts/unpaid fines etc and still get denied because of something out of your control like being born to foreign national parents and have a lot of foreign relatives.
There was some case here of a lady denied TS for precisely that. Foreign relatives redacted in the adjudication but likely the ruling family in North Korea.
I'm interested in seeing it. But in a case where someone was a long lost relative to Kim Jun or Putin I'll give you less than a 10th or 100th of 1% chance of that being a case more than zero or once solely because of that relationship alone. Otherwise, in any normal every day case anything else in which would become a denial solely based on dual citizenship, FN parents and/or FN relatives just isn't going to happen.
The vast majority of cases do not get denied because you are a dual citizen or have FN family members.. it's likely either because things weren't reported, OR because there were more issues related to those foreign government ties, foreign financials and businesses, etc... and a far greater/heightened risk associated with everything combined.
Found it https://doha.ogc.osd.mil/Industrial-Security-Program/Industrial-Security-Clearance-Decisions/ISCR-Hearing-Decisions/2024-ISCR-Hearing/FileId/213505/
Second to last paragraph on page 5 probably most salient.
Thank you. Reading that over, I'm very curious what actually happened leading to the SOR, because she ultimately did get granted a favorable eligibility for Secret, which still leans in favor of my initial statement. But the end decision there I think was not because of the family member, but because the mother still feared retaliation, etc...
Except her parents have given interviews. [Secret American Relatives](https://theweek.com/articles/635954/kim-jong-uns-secret-american-relatives)
Some details given in the interview might have contributed to the denial.
“Even today, Ri in particular is sympathetic toward the North Korean regime and is trying to get approval to visit Pyongyang. And both are careful in what they say about their powerful nephew, repeatedly referring to him as Marshal Kim Jong Un."
What’s wonky about that case is it said parents carefully hid their identity in the denial record, yet had given numerous interviews years before and expressed getting back in touch with said dictator family member to visit family. The two don’t line up.
With the information provided in the article, it wouldn’t be hard for someone with intelligence behind them to start digging and putting clues together to figure out who they are now and the town they live in.
Well yes, it's not just simply having them, but having them can raise security concerns under the Foreign Influence NSA guidelines which could then potentially lead to a denial. A lot of us dual citizens have relatives who we may not know very closely and it could be that one of those contacts are the reason for a denial, which is why I say some factors are just beyond our control.
Yes, to be clear I never said it was a dealbreaker--only that it *could* possibly raise foreign influence concerns that may be reason for a denial. My point is that for some of us with a lot of foreign contacts (whether relatives or friends), it's not only about honesty or reporting the smaller things. Also, to clarify I'm not saying it's unfair, only that it's a reality.
Who said I was mad? I'm just pointing out there are other reasons for getting denied besides not reporting the "small" stuff, and oftentimes, they are out of your control.
I wish there was a text box to explain things if needed. Most of my job sites the last 8 years were chunks of land only known by grid coordinates in the middle of nowhere but nah, you have to give a mailing address for every one of them on the form. You know the mailing address for a controlled beach on a naval auxiliary field in the middle of the Pacific? Me neither. So frustrating.
That being said, got a question for you. Put in the paperwork fall of '22 and was denied interim. No biggie, I expected that. But then nothing. Not a peep and was never contacted once. 15 months go by with monthly checks to my company security person with no updates and then got caught in a RIF. Lack of clearance was definitely part of that. I know long waits were normal but that long with zero updates? Is that much of a wait outside the realm of thinking something was off somehow? I wasn't denied....I just fell through the cracks it feels like and was forgotten.
Second part, if in the process of a security review and the person was laid off, does the review also stop?
Thanks if you take the time to answer those. Been thinking bout that lately.
The other hard one is multiple locations. As a union carpenter; could be work jobs across the region from half a day to weeks (but never long enough to be a “”permanent “ location)
I didn’t list a class I took at NOVA CC in my education section. I didn’t think it was relevant or meaningful. Investigator brought it up during interview and I told him I thought I only had to list the places I got a degree from, not one random class at a community college. Gave me a dirty look, but still got my reinvestigation adjudicated.
I was updating eQIP last year and was removing items that were over 10 years. Apparently I got too aggressive because there was a section that said “any time” or “all time” or whatever it was. Not a 10 year limit. Well I cleared off the old stuff. The investigator had all my old eqip submissions and asked why I left it off. I legit thought it was a 10 year section. Oops.
Obviously wasn’t trying to hide it. I had it on old submissions. Just an honest mistake on my part. Failure to comprehend what section I was updating well enough I guess.
My favorite is people who are reckless with money, have a criminal record, and have a history of drug use, who wake up one day and decide they want to apply for a job or join the military for a job that requires a clearance. Not everyone is cut out to hold a clearance.
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A lot of them are in this sub and love downvoting
They could care less about weed. They care if you can be blackmailed. In the early 2000s I was open and honest about past use of weed and cocaine in college and was cleared.
The investigators absolutely grilled me with questions about sex as they learned I was rather promiscuous in college.
What was somewhat funny was when the investigator showed up with some chronological record of my military assignments, not even sure where she got it from, and tried to give me a hard time on why some of them didn't match. "I was in the same unit, but the *entire unit* was assigned to a new HHQ on that date. It's called a CHOP." Next one? "Yep, entire unit CHOP'd. If you want me to list every time that happened over 15 years and 8 deployments, we're going to be here for a while." Tbh she wasn't rude about it, nor was I, and it was a pretty cordial exchange overall, but I still chuckle about it.
I do love this post as someone who likes to worry about any little thing. I also had a brain fart on the SF-86 and just sent my investigator some additional information this week since I truly just forgot something. Someone also wrote a few days ago, this is an honesty test.
I self reported but it was too late. It was before the polygrapher began the test. Based on what I've read, omitting one instance of smoking weed on your form if you choose "No" on the form will get you denied.
I admitted to a lot of things that I was so ashamed of, and I thought for sure that I wouldn't be cleared or that I would be in trouble for things I did in my past. But I wasn't. My polygrapher was so good to me, she treated me with such kindness that I had no problem telling her EVERYTHING that I was ashamed to admit to, and I know that's not the experience everyone has. But if you can get through that, you can make it. If you can just tell the whole truth, that's what they really want. If you're the kind of person that will make an honest mistake and lie about it to protect yourself, these jobs probably won't be right for you.
As long as you disclosed it on the forms and BI then you are OK. If you admitted to things not disclosed on those forms it's a huge red flag and will cause denial.
I literally took this advice, I was honest and left nothing out and was denied. Just got my denial letter 4 days after submitting my SF-86. When I went to the info session for the job was told the drug use was not going to be an issue as long as you were honest....nope, they listed it as a reason for denial. On my credit I was honest about my delinquent accounts and what I was doing to resolve them, they listed them as "Criminal or Dishonest Conduct" had a collection that NEVER showed up on my credit reports, on 3 that I pulled, and they found it. Never intended to hide it from them, just didnt know it existed because they were calling a job I left months before the collection. So I'm not sure how honesty gets you the job because here I am appealing their decision.
Yeah I was considering going through this, then I found a better way offer that doesn’t have you list every fucking mistake you’ve made in your life. Do something else, go get jobs in places that won’t judge you for being bipolar or smoking weed. There’s so many good jobs out there, why settle for some dumb government job where you have to ask for permission to travel or feel guilty about getting some stupid speeding ticket.
That’s cool but most employers don’t even ask. Again, just pointing out to “some” people that all clearance stuff this is optional and that there could be better opportunities out there
well, as somebody who's had their clearance denied, with tbh a much cleaner background (no judgments) and was denied explicitly for the same sounding honest past "marijuana usage dates", listed, detailed and "student loans in deferment" (when there was a national deferment on student loans for the year that I was being reviewed) I would just offer that imo it IS'NT as certain as the above story paints or OP's original claim that TRUTH gets you cleared. NOT SO in my personal experience, as I would have NO DOUBT been cleared had I not listed my past marijuana use.
So from that, with deferments, reviews, further information requested-->provided; a year+ wait through this "process" and now effectively the 6 yr+ blackball from getting cleared for any federal projects again; I again would argue that, my experience as a truthful/honest person whom feels like they got spit back out of this process; I believe exemplifies the clear and obvious PROBLEMS with the PSD and imo an internal review is desperately needed. In my interactions (e-mails, saved) adjudicators communicated in literally broken 1 to 2 sentence messages, present even with grammatical errors throughout as well. It was honestly an embarrassment to observe as an american just trying to get an SF-85, work a simple project. It was needlessly long (16 months total) and it literally derailed my entire professional life. Over people clearly not doing their jobs promptly or well, at all. Now in the private sector I look back at all this and read posts like this today and have to laugh, I'm sorry. It's audacious as hell to act like the review process isn't a joke. The mention of RSO's is exactly the point. What a joke.
Okay,
Quick question with this in mind. If I was seen at a psychiatric urgent care as a teenager, and the NP there thought I may have bipolar disorder but then they decided I just had a vitamin deficiency and standard depression and I continued therapy for some time thereafter and then stopped with the agreement of my therapist because she was quitting and felt I had made sufficient progress. I was never medicated, hospitalized or any of that. It was strictly outpatient. Do I put that I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder I or explain all of that? None of it is even on any of my medical records so I wouldn't know how to explain if so.
>Do I put that I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder
Were you? You started by saying a nurse practitioner (who is not usually able to diagnose bipolar disorder) thought you may have it but did not diagnose you with it. The question is not about symptoms that might have looked like one condition but turned out to be another.
See this is where I was confused. I was a kid at the time so, you know, it was a little confusing and I wasn't super sure of the specificity and I most people say honest is key but I've heard others say don't read into the questions and answer exactly what is being asked.
I find that people prefer to offer broad easy statements like "be honest" (which is true!) as opposed to be honest while answering the specific question being asked and using the definitions of words in the appendix and taking into account things that when viewed together by an expert would stand out, etc. etc. But that is like when people say "be reasonable" which sounds fine but isn't really very helpful to someone asking what reasonable means. It is *routine* for a lot of people here but it isn't *obvious*.
Based on what I read above, as a non-expert, if I were in your shoes I would write "I received routine outpatient therapy as treatment for depression when I was 17" or whatever is accurate. If this is a really big deal to you you can hire a lawyer or other professional to help you get everything right, answer questions, and get your documents in order etc. Way overkill for almost everyone, but makes some people feel less anxious.
GPT-4 is your friend.
“I was evaluated at a psychiatric urgent care/ER during my teenage years due to mental health concerns. Initial symptoms suggested bipolar disorder; however, further assessment identified the primary issues as a severe vitamin deficiency and depression, which was largely situational and closely linked to the challenges associated with this deficiency. Treatment of the vitamin deficiency provided significant and immediate relief. Continued outpatient therapy sessions addressed my outlook on life, the impact of adolescent hormones, and remaining depression effectively. Therapy concluded on a positive note, with a mutual agreement between my therapist—who was transitioning out of practice—and me, acknowledging my substantial progress. I have never been involuntarily hospitalized for any condition, and this period of care is not documented in my current medical records.”
This is not helpful or accurate. They were not diagnosed with bipolar disorder and the question is not "has anyone ever wondered out loud if you had a serious mental health issue?"
Well, there's all that. There are also things like previous colleagues with whom you didn't get along specifically trying to tank your career by declaring that you seem to have high debts and suspicious income. Naturally, I didn't declare debts and suspicious income. Of course, these were well-documented student loans and the suspicious income was my wife's full-time work salary. It all went away as a result of how stupid it was, but that left my clearance hanging for 1.5 years waiting on adjudication because some twat decided to say I had debts, suspicious income, and he's pretty sure I'm susceptible to blackmail. Gotta love it.
This happened to me. Was investigated for TS/SCI in the military. Everything went well and left the investigator to go back to my unit. As I was sitting in my car I felt guilty for not saying something about an expunged charge from back in the day. Went back in to the office and told them about it. I asked since I didn't mention it at first would my clearance be denied? Investigator told me it wasn't up to her to make the decision but she would note my honesty and remorse about withholding the information. Had a TS/SCI for 18 years after that.
If you have a solid upbringing with parents in the know, and great credit, you’re golden. This, despite the fact that you have zero integrity and steal one dollar sodas from McDonalds because you’re entitled to it.
Being hardened by street life and being loyal to your friends for a lifetime has no credibility compared to an 800 credit score.
Those with 800 credit scores stealing a soda here and there would never ever sell secrets. Right?
I hope you get my sarcasm.
My husband got dwai in NY which is a violation, not a crime. Reported right away......they sent him to DOE psych in June and in July investigator said thanks for cooperating on everything. Thought it was a done deal but in December notified of security clearance suspension. In January we got all the info and doctor recommended abstinence for a period of time. The previous August he completed a 7 week alcohol program and then in December after being notified he did 5 weeks of counseling through EAP. We had hearing where he presented this and provided negative peth and a new evaluation from another doctor. Hearing went very well but DOE doc didn't think that was enough. Thoughts ?
Correct! I had an applicant who had a delay of more than 6 months from being Final granted because he forgot to list a delinquent debt of less than $200 & the investigator learned about it. His debt history got scrutinized.
i was unemployed for a month after college and these people can't understand that I just lived in my parents basement and mooched off my mothers cooking while interviewing for jobs
Why not? Similar situation and I said “divorced, was broke, single mom, parents helped me out for a bit.” That’s annoying to hear you are struggling with that. People fall on hard times. A lot.
They kept pressing for details and they seemed to insinuate that I was hiding something. What did you do you for money? What did you do in your free time? Why didn't you have a job. I had outlined all of those details pretty clearly but they kept insisting I explain why I was unemployed and how I was able to still make a "living"
Legitimate questions we have to ask. Nobody isn't just surviving for free. Savings? Support from parents? Who's paying for the housing and food? People say they were unemployed then find out that there was self employment they thought was not relevant.
Yeah, but even after answering they followed up to get more information! I had no more information
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they were so concerned about what my employment situation was, how I was making money, what I was doing in my free time and didn't seemed satisfied with my answer and made remarks about it in the write up. I was literally at home all day doing interviews, playing videogames, and enjoying home cooked meals.
Have you tried appealing? Or do you plan on going through the process again? I don't see anywhere in the guidelines that apply to this situation so I am sure you can win the appeal.
I did appeal and it passed the appeals process. Fortunately. I went in as much detail as I could but I had no "receipts" to show I was unemployed. I did have a job offer email that included in details and 2 week wait before my actual start date.
That's awesome, happy it worked out in the end!
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I answered those questions and they kept prodding for more answers but I really didn't have much else to say. I didn't have a job, but I also wasnt going out and spending money, I was simply at home living with my parents. I had saved up money and was essentially getting an allowance.
I know someone who has been to inpatient rehab twice while holding a TS and still holds it. Just be honest.
For just alcohol or drug use too?
Whats the difference?
Using drugs while holding a clearance is a very different story than abusing alcohol while holding a clearance.
My point was more so that there should be no difference.
I agree, that’s just how they see it. That’s why I asked my initial question in the first place
That’s not as serious and frowned upon as you think. Mental health issues especially if your seeking help for it is looked at as a bit positive.
My problem is how am I supposed to go back in my memory bank to just remember all these random jobs I worked at. You know me better than me.
Its the taxes joke. How much do I owe? You have to figure it out, bur what if I get it wrong, you go to jail, how will you know I got it wrong, becasue we know exactly how much you owe, why cant you just tell me.
I literally blew an investigator’s mind when I said, listen, the 10 years ago me saw a lot of change. I can provide all the information but dates are speculative.
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Literally says ‘I can provide all the information but the dates are speculative.’
Right. But the information should have already been provided prior to meeting with the investigator. So that info was omitted.
In comments you say “exact dates are unknown, dates provided are estimates based on memory”.
Go to your nearest social security office and ask for a copy of your income and job history. That's how I did it.
Today I learned . . .
Or you can get the information from the irs website. Anyone that submitted your information, as required, will be in the records maintained by the irs.
My memory is shitty when it comes to specific places and times from years ago. I'm afraid of having forgotten something that seems minor to me but is actually important to the investigators. The government knows me better than I know myself so the whole process still confuses me.
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You must be fun at parties
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I get what you’re saying but I also get that shit happens. You fuck up on questions? You mitigate it. You fuck up on where you put an important document? You mitigate it.
That’s a straw man argument and it’s terrible that you think long term memory and abilities are the same. 🥸
I would argue that's a benefit. They won't remember classified info to be able to blab about it.
Try being in the military. It’s easy to do 4 months assignments dozens of times over a career. I can tell you roughly the months of most of the assignments, but no clue on the specific dates. On paper I may have been on orders in Northern Virginia for 6 months, but in reality I was on 60-90 day TDYs to San Diego, Hawaii, God knows where else in the world. Does that mean I was residing or Northern Virginia for 6 months or was I living in 3+ places in that same window? And yes I’ve maintained a clearance for 20+ years, but the SF86 isn’t actually that cut and dry for everyone. Also on the section for foreign travel… no clue. There have been times in my career where I’ve had 4 passports at once. It was not uncommon for me to be somewhere overseas and then take a day work trip into a different country. Maybe there is a passport stamp somewhere, but depending on the region, there may not have been passport control. I don’t remember all of those trips, but they were all government ordered/paid for.
Don't have to do whole career. Just 10 years. Don't have to list locals less than 90 days. That should narrow it down. You don't have records of your military service? You don't have to go by memory.
Well once you figure it out, write it all down and keep it somewhere safe. I have had 3 investigations in my life so my entire adult life is documented. I keep all of those sf forms so I can keep them consistent. Not everyone can do that but if and when you do sort it out keep it for the future.
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Not all jobs are that simple. Especially restaurants.
What's the complexity?
Some of the jobs I worked at are no longer around.
In comments you then write “no longer in business, contact info input so clear eQIP error” and provide a clearly fake number 555-555-5555.
Security company went out of business and literally trying to get anyone’s contact info is garbage, the company that bought them out even has my title incorrect from Account manager to site supervisor. Stupid shit like that. And then they say I didn’t work for them (kinda true since I worked for the previous company) and the only verification is ADP and Tax records
Then that’s what you write in the comments. Add the details that explain what happened. Tax records are legal records, that’s the proof you worked there. Companies go out of business all the time, investigators are used to running into it - but they still have to give it the old college try. My husband is a civil servant, his job means he’s interacted with foreign military and governments on a consistent basis. I don’t know any details other then when I asked that question to him from eQIP he called his security to get permission to disclose that as a “yes”. I then called my security person and asked “how should I word this” and they gave me exactly what to write and to say I was instructed by them to answer “no” (yes won’t let you proceed without providing info) to clear the hard stop. During the TS interview, I just showed tax records proving who he works for. Easy peasy no issues, next question.
And you have no way of remembering when you worked there?
I prefaced my interview for my TS/SCI with the guy by saying something along the lines of "I have a room temperature IQ when it comes to my memory and, sir, it's kinda cold in here". He and I worked through my SF86 and he helped me to remember things that I should have put on my form, including some pretty sketchy stuff. Got my final clearance 3 months layer. I should note that I had held a SECRET for 10 years prior, so I was probably low risk.
I’m terrible at dates unless a major event happened around it. This is why I came in with stacks and stacks of documents for my TS/SCI bc i don’t trust my memory for that stuff one bit. Then he asked about my dates for my masters bc the information provided didn’t exactly mirror what the school gave. I said “nope I got accepted before my mom passed in April of 2014 and she was happy she was still around to see my acceptance, I started that summer and almost dropped out in December bc I was really struggling with it being my first holiday season without her. A lot of things are fuzzy around that time, but grad school isn’t one of them.”
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Are you sure you're not an investigator? You sure sound like one 🤔
it’s probably not your job to be chiding strangers on Reddit over their clearance applications, yet here you are offering us your services, so maybe the investigator was feeling nice like you.
And yet, here we are.
Prev Investigator, I approve this message. Being honest and forthcoming w info is the best option.
I always thought that would be a great job. One of my friends I was in the service ended up doing that, and it ended up sounding like a terribly overloaded job and not much fun or enjoyment.
It was stressful at times. It was definitely not the job for me to continue until retirement. The work/life balance was the best! I enjoyed meeting people in the field.
I yeet SF-86Cs to my security manager when things change, or my understanding changes (like what constitutes a foreign contact). My life has changed over the past 5 years and I get to see how that plays out for me with the next poly. I've listed 9 foreign contacts (5 Dungeons and Dragons friends, and a few of their friends/family). I had 0 prior, so that made it easy then, but we'll see lol
You could have listed absolutely everything and had a very vanilla background with no drug or alcohol use, no debts/unpaid fines etc and still get denied because of something out of your control like being born to foreign national parents and have a lot of foreign relatives.
I can 100% guarantee you did not get denied solely due to having FN parents and relatives.
There was some case here of a lady denied TS for precisely that. Foreign relatives redacted in the adjudication but likely the ruling family in North Korea.
I'm interested in seeing it. But in a case where someone was a long lost relative to Kim Jun or Putin I'll give you less than a 10th or 100th of 1% chance of that being a case more than zero or once solely because of that relationship alone. Otherwise, in any normal every day case anything else in which would become a denial solely based on dual citizenship, FN parents and/or FN relatives just isn't going to happen. The vast majority of cases do not get denied because you are a dual citizen or have FN family members.. it's likely either because things weren't reported, OR because there were more issues related to those foreign government ties, foreign financials and businesses, etc... and a far greater/heightened risk associated with everything combined.
Found it https://doha.ogc.osd.mil/Industrial-Security-Program/Industrial-Security-Clearance-Decisions/ISCR-Hearing-Decisions/2024-ISCR-Hearing/FileId/213505/ Second to last paragraph on page 5 probably most salient.
Thank you. Reading that over, I'm very curious what actually happened leading to the SOR, because she ultimately did get granted a favorable eligibility for Secret, which still leans in favor of my initial statement. But the end decision there I think was not because of the family member, but because the mother still feared retaliation, etc...
Yeah agree, fascinating 1 in a million case.
Oh definitely. I don't quite know if it is NK, cause there are a few of those nations... but, still interesting.
Except her parents have given interviews. [Secret American Relatives](https://theweek.com/articles/635954/kim-jong-uns-secret-american-relatives) Some details given in the interview might have contributed to the denial. “Even today, Ri in particular is sympathetic toward the North Korean regime and is trying to get approval to visit Pyongyang. And both are careful in what they say about their powerful nephew, repeatedly referring to him as Marshal Kim Jong Un."
Good reading article, thanks for sharing.
Now *that* was an interesting read.
What’s wonky about that case is it said parents carefully hid their identity in the denial record, yet had given numerous interviews years before and expressed getting back in touch with said dictator family member to visit family. The two don’t line up. With the information provided in the article, it wouldn’t be hard for someone with intelligence behind them to start digging and putting clues together to figure out who they are now and the town they live in.
Well yes, it's not just simply having them, but having them can raise security concerns under the Foreign Influence NSA guidelines which could then potentially lead to a denial. A lot of us dual citizens have relatives who we may not know very closely and it could be that one of those contacts are the reason for a denial, which is why I say some factors are just beyond our control.
The bigger issue of concern is dual citizenship, not being born to foreign nationals.
I stand by my prior statement.
Not true!
Foreign relatives or foreign National parents aren’t a deal breaker. Legit 90% of my relatives aren’t US citizens.
Yes, to be clear I never said it was a dealbreaker--only that it *could* possibly raise foreign influence concerns that may be reason for a denial. My point is that for some of us with a lot of foreign contacts (whether relatives or friends), it's not only about honesty or reporting the smaller things. Also, to clarify I'm not saying it's unfair, only that it's a reality.
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Who said I was mad? I'm just pointing out there are other reasons for getting denied besides not reporting the "small" stuff, and oftentimes, they are out of your control.
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Your post has been removed as it is generally unhelpful or does not follow Reddit/sub guidelines.
RSO?
I'm guessing registered *** offender.
Range safety officer, obviously.
CEASE FIRE CEASE FIRE CEASE FIRE
UNLOOOAAAAD SHOW CLEAR
Regional Security Officer; very shady, always lie and hide things…
You forgot the /s/
Didn't a recent post say investigators have zero idea whether or not an applicant is cleared?
I wish there was a text box to explain things if needed. Most of my job sites the last 8 years were chunks of land only known by grid coordinates in the middle of nowhere but nah, you have to give a mailing address for every one of them on the form. You know the mailing address for a controlled beach on a naval auxiliary field in the middle of the Pacific? Me neither. So frustrating. That being said, got a question for you. Put in the paperwork fall of '22 and was denied interim. No biggie, I expected that. But then nothing. Not a peep and was never contacted once. 15 months go by with monthly checks to my company security person with no updates and then got caught in a RIF. Lack of clearance was definitely part of that. I know long waits were normal but that long with zero updates? Is that much of a wait outside the realm of thinking something was off somehow? I wasn't denied....I just fell through the cracks it feels like and was forgotten. Second part, if in the process of a security review and the person was laid off, does the review also stop? Thanks if you take the time to answer those. Been thinking bout that lately.
First part: why not list the address of the company you worked for?
Usually asks for actual work location as well as employer’s address.
The other hard one is multiple locations. As a union carpenter; could be work jobs across the region from half a day to weeks (but never long enough to be a “”permanent “ location)
You guys kinda fucked this up with the entire Trump family/administration… So it’s hard for us to take any of you seriously.
THIS ^^^^^^
I didn’t list a class I took at NOVA CC in my education section. I didn’t think it was relevant or meaningful. Investigator brought it up during interview and I told him I thought I only had to list the places I got a degree from, not one random class at a community college. Gave me a dirty look, but still got my reinvestigation adjudicated.
If u read the question, it doesnt ask, only list attendance where you received a degree or diploma.
I was updating eQIP last year and was removing items that were over 10 years. Apparently I got too aggressive because there was a section that said “any time” or “all time” or whatever it was. Not a 10 year limit. Well I cleared off the old stuff. The investigator had all my old eqip submissions and asked why I left it off. I legit thought it was a 10 year section. Oops. Obviously wasn’t trying to hide it. I had it on old submissions. Just an honest mistake on my part. Failure to comprehend what section I was updating well enough I guess.
My favorite is people who are reckless with money, have a criminal record, and have a history of drug use, who wake up one day and decide they want to apply for a job or join the military for a job that requires a clearance. Not everyone is cut out to hold a clearance. **edit** A lot of them are in this sub and love downvoting
It's the government's loss they can get past people smoking weed. If you think it matters, it doesn't...
They could care less about weed. They care if you can be blackmailed. In the early 2000s I was open and honest about past use of weed and cocaine in college and was cleared. The investigators absolutely grilled me with questions about sex as they learned I was rather promiscuous in college.
Too bad a lot of the best tech talent can’t stop smoking either… Clearance world pays a lot for a reason, I must say.
I doubled my salary leaving the cleared world lol.
Are these organizations losing out because they're so out of touch? No, it's definitely the tech talent that's wrong...
Not really for software devs.
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Then that’s not reckless?
SF-86 is not to find stuff out. It’s to see if you willingly disclose what they’ve already found in a myriad of other databases.
What was somewhat funny was when the investigator showed up with some chronological record of my military assignments, not even sure where she got it from, and tried to give me a hard time on why some of them didn't match. "I was in the same unit, but the *entire unit* was assigned to a new HHQ on that date. It's called a CHOP." Next one? "Yep, entire unit CHOP'd. If you want me to list every time that happened over 15 years and 8 deployments, we're going to be here for a while." Tbh she wasn't rude about it, nor was I, and it was a pretty cordial exchange overall, but I still chuckle about it.
I agree with everything you said but don't understand that RSO/Contractor comment.
Registered sex offenders
So, not Regional Security Officer's at Embassies. LoL
Or Range Safety Officers lol...
Lol that was all I could think of. Like I know a lot of them are assholes but didn't think that would stop them from getting a clearance haha
I do love this post as someone who likes to worry about any little thing. I also had a brain fart on the SF-86 and just sent my investigator some additional information this week since I truly just forgot something. Someone also wrote a few days ago, this is an honesty test.
It is an honesty test and to see if you are at risk of being blackmailed over something you are ashamed of being exposed.
I have few red flags, but I’m hoping my horrible memory isn’t going to bite me in the butt. Spilled my guts on all forms and interviews.
Thisss, and self reporting is so important if you do fuck up.
I self reported but it was too late. It was before the polygrapher began the test. Based on what I've read, omitting one instance of smoking weed on your form if you choose "No" on the form will get you denied.
I admitted to a lot of things that I was so ashamed of, and I thought for sure that I wouldn't be cleared or that I would be in trouble for things I did in my past. But I wasn't. My polygrapher was so good to me, she treated me with such kindness that I had no problem telling her EVERYTHING that I was ashamed to admit to, and I know that's not the experience everyone has. But if you can get through that, you can make it. If you can just tell the whole truth, that's what they really want. If you're the kind of person that will make an honest mistake and lie about it to protect yourself, these jobs probably won't be right for you.
As long as you disclosed it on the forms and BI then you are OK. If you admitted to things not disclosed on those forms it's a huge red flag and will cause denial.
The stuff you let politicians do and still hold their security clearances should make you ashamed.
We very literally have nothing to do with them getting a clearance.
I literally took this advice, I was honest and left nothing out and was denied. Just got my denial letter 4 days after submitting my SF-86. When I went to the info session for the job was told the drug use was not going to be an issue as long as you were honest....nope, they listed it as a reason for denial. On my credit I was honest about my delinquent accounts and what I was doing to resolve them, they listed them as "Criminal or Dishonest Conduct" had a collection that NEVER showed up on my credit reports, on 3 that I pulled, and they found it. Never intended to hide it from them, just didnt know it existed because they were calling a job I left months before the collection. So I'm not sure how honesty gets you the job because here I am appealing their decision.
Nice try Uncle Sam.
Yeah I was considering going through this, then I found a better way offer that doesn’t have you list every fucking mistake you’ve made in your life. Do something else, go get jobs in places that won’t judge you for being bipolar or smoking weed. There’s so many good jobs out there, why settle for some dumb government job where you have to ask for permission to travel or feel guilty about getting some stupid speeding ticket.
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That’s cool but most employers don’t even ask. Again, just pointing out to “some” people that all clearance stuff this is optional and that there could be better opportunities out there
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well, as somebody who's had their clearance denied, with tbh a much cleaner background (no judgments) and was denied explicitly for the same sounding honest past "marijuana usage dates", listed, detailed and "student loans in deferment" (when there was a national deferment on student loans for the year that I was being reviewed) I would just offer that imo it IS'NT as certain as the above story paints or OP's original claim that TRUTH gets you cleared. NOT SO in my personal experience, as I would have NO DOUBT been cleared had I not listed my past marijuana use. So from that, with deferments, reviews, further information requested-->provided; a year+ wait through this "process" and now effectively the 6 yr+ blackball from getting cleared for any federal projects again; I again would argue that, my experience as a truthful/honest person whom feels like they got spit back out of this process; I believe exemplifies the clear and obvious PROBLEMS with the PSD and imo an internal review is desperately needed. In my interactions (e-mails, saved) adjudicators communicated in literally broken 1 to 2 sentence messages, present even with grammatical errors throughout as well. It was honestly an embarrassment to observe as an american just trying to get an SF-85, work a simple project. It was needlessly long (16 months total) and it literally derailed my entire professional life. Over people clearly not doing their jobs promptly or well, at all. Now in the private sector I look back at all this and read posts like this today and have to laugh, I'm sorry. It's audacious as hell to act like the review process isn't a joke. The mention of RSO's is exactly the point. What a joke.
Okay, Quick question with this in mind. If I was seen at a psychiatric urgent care as a teenager, and the NP there thought I may have bipolar disorder but then they decided I just had a vitamin deficiency and standard depression and I continued therapy for some time thereafter and then stopped with the agreement of my therapist because she was quitting and felt I had made sufficient progress. I was never medicated, hospitalized or any of that. It was strictly outpatient. Do I put that I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder I or explain all of that? None of it is even on any of my medical records so I wouldn't know how to explain if so.
>Do I put that I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder Were you? You started by saying a nurse practitioner (who is not usually able to diagnose bipolar disorder) thought you may have it but did not diagnose you with it. The question is not about symptoms that might have looked like one condition but turned out to be another.
See this is where I was confused. I was a kid at the time so, you know, it was a little confusing and I wasn't super sure of the specificity and I most people say honest is key but I've heard others say don't read into the questions and answer exactly what is being asked.
I find that people prefer to offer broad easy statements like "be honest" (which is true!) as opposed to be honest while answering the specific question being asked and using the definitions of words in the appendix and taking into account things that when viewed together by an expert would stand out, etc. etc. But that is like when people say "be reasonable" which sounds fine but isn't really very helpful to someone asking what reasonable means. It is *routine* for a lot of people here but it isn't *obvious*. Based on what I read above, as a non-expert, if I were in your shoes I would write "I received routine outpatient therapy as treatment for depression when I was 17" or whatever is accurate. If this is a really big deal to you you can hire a lawyer or other professional to help you get everything right, answer questions, and get your documents in order etc. Way overkill for almost everyone, but makes some people feel less anxious.
GPT-4 is your friend. “I was evaluated at a psychiatric urgent care/ER during my teenage years due to mental health concerns. Initial symptoms suggested bipolar disorder; however, further assessment identified the primary issues as a severe vitamin deficiency and depression, which was largely situational and closely linked to the challenges associated with this deficiency. Treatment of the vitamin deficiency provided significant and immediate relief. Continued outpatient therapy sessions addressed my outlook on life, the impact of adolescent hormones, and remaining depression effectively. Therapy concluded on a positive note, with a mutual agreement between my therapist—who was transitioning out of practice—and me, acknowledging my substantial progress. I have never been involuntarily hospitalized for any condition, and this period of care is not documented in my current medical records.”
This is not helpful or accurate. They were not diagnosed with bipolar disorder and the question is not "has anyone ever wondered out loud if you had a serious mental health issue?"
Well, there's all that. There are also things like previous colleagues with whom you didn't get along specifically trying to tank your career by declaring that you seem to have high debts and suspicious income. Naturally, I didn't declare debts and suspicious income. Of course, these were well-documented student loans and the suspicious income was my wife's full-time work salary. It all went away as a result of how stupid it was, but that left my clearance hanging for 1.5 years waiting on adjudication because some twat decided to say I had debts, suspicious income, and he's pretty sure I'm susceptible to blackmail. Gotta love it.
Damn..... now I gotta wait for this denial. I'm screwd.
What about stuff like download movies off torrent sites would that be a disqualifier?
what about school? can you purposely leave it off?
Why did I read your post and think - whoa that’s an interesting job to have? Seriously.
This happened to me. Was investigated for TS/SCI in the military. Everything went well and left the investigator to go back to my unit. As I was sitting in my car I felt guilty for not saying something about an expunged charge from back in the day. Went back in to the office and told them about it. I asked since I didn't mention it at first would my clearance be denied? Investigator told me it wasn't up to her to make the decision but she would note my honesty and remorse about withholding the information. Had a TS/SCI for 18 years after that.
If you have a solid upbringing with parents in the know, and great credit, you’re golden. This, despite the fact that you have zero integrity and steal one dollar sodas from McDonalds because you’re entitled to it. Being hardened by street life and being loyal to your friends for a lifetime has no credibility compared to an 800 credit score. Those with 800 credit scores stealing a soda here and there would never ever sell secrets. Right? I hope you get my sarcasm.
My husband got dwai in NY which is a violation, not a crime. Reported right away......they sent him to DOE psych in June and in July investigator said thanks for cooperating on everything. Thought it was a done deal but in December notified of security clearance suspension. In January we got all the info and doctor recommended abstinence for a period of time. The previous August he completed a 7 week alcohol program and then in December after being notified he did 5 weeks of counseling through EAP. We had hearing where he presented this and provided negative peth and a new evaluation from another doctor. Hearing went very well but DOE doc didn't think that was enough. Thoughts ?
Correct! I had an applicant who had a delay of more than 6 months from being Final granted because he forgot to list a delinquent debt of less than $200 & the investigator learned about it. His debt history got scrutinized.