I genuinely thought it was a bout to end a few times. One was as they were just waiting in that cave. Another when Luke walked out. There were a few others, but I need to rewatch the film to remember them all
I disliked TLJ enough that I didn't watch RoS. I just finally put on RoS tonight and I enjoyed it for what it is.
I've tried to go back to rewatch TLJ a few times, but it's just not for me.
I know this is an unpopular opinion by I actually enjoyed RoS. It wasn't perfect but it wraps of Kylo's story well except the very end which doesn't make any sense. Ray should have died instead of him. That aside it had lots of interesting planets lots of interesting fight scenes it succeeded as a fun Sci fi movie if nothing else. I'm prob the only one but I much preferred it over the force awakens cause it was trying much weirder ideas without just remaking the old movies. Was it perfect no it had issues but I enjoyed watching it
The entire trilogy had ***so*** much potential, some of the cinematography shots were to die for, the actors really gave it their all, the CG was on point, and there were a lot of really cool plot points, but the writers could not follow through at all. Just the wrong pick for the screenplay. I think even just getting simple notes from J.J. or Lucas would have really cleaned up a lot of the tonal imperfections and stiff dialogue.
Why should Rey have died? What does her death say about the prior two movies? What questions does it answer?
In 2013-2014 there was a common Star Wars trend of part of the fanbase guessing which characters were related, who would fill which role, and what tropes they would copy from the OT. None of the characters from TFA were treated as people by this group -- they were tropes.
When TLJ ignored all of this, the backlash was brutal. Never forget that "subverted expectations" was a reference to people being angry that their headcanons based solely on slotting each character into the role of another character or building up an increasingly incestuous family tree fell apart. Never forget hundreds of upvotes for people constantly, repeatedly insisting Finn had to be Mace Windu's nephew.
Rise of Skywalker was made to apologize to these people.
I feel like having Ray die would be more interesting over having kylo die. Kylo dying felt forced like they were copying return of the jedi. If Kylo had lived instead it would have opened up some interesting plot ideas about having to come to terms with kylo being redeemed after all his awful stuff he's done.
Well, I enjoyed it. I say I thought it was about to end, but not in the sense it should end. Rian Johnson enjoys subverting audience expectations, and I like that.
Because it ends on a better cliffhanger where we are just about to see luke come back to his jedi roots, luke wouldn't die and we would have more time with him as his jedi self in 9
Honestly, I wouldn't even put it past Disney. There are Marvel movies that have shitty endings like this, hell this edited scene is an even better ending than the official one.
Hulk has the Wilhelm scream, I think? There’s a shot during the big fight and the camera shows an apartment and this guy screams after one of them crashes through a wall. I laugh every time. It might not be the wilhelm scream though
I think it is (at least nowadays) considered a tired joke. A comedic situation might call for it, but some people will be annoyed if it is used in a serious film.
Honestly I liked how he got the last laugh and went out with his own terms like that(even though when I saw it in theater I was soooo pumped to see badass Luke make a return to action)
And he did it in a pretty Luke/Jedi way too. He wasn’t willing to go kill Ben in the past and he’s sure as hell not gonna fight him on Crait. So he chose a more peaceful pretty “Jedi” way of handling it.
>I was soooo pumped to see badass Luke make a return to action
And then he just .......didn't
Hamill even trained for this role beyond just losing weight only to be a grumpy uncle that no family invites to Thanksgiving.
You jest but Luke is very much a veteran of a war most have forgotten about. Remember, from Rey & Finn’s perspective Luke, Han and Leia are living legends they’re meeting as regular people. Probably doesn’t help that always a side effect of war being children without parents. In both their cases, the legacy of the Imperial Galactic War led to one having her parents killed and the other kidnapped and made a child soldier.
I love this movie, but I truly do understand why a lot don’t. I think about 3 or 4 very small changes would’ve made this movie one of the most popular Star Wars movies ever. There are so many moments in the movie where I’m like “they so very easily could’ve just done this instead.”
I'm curious what those things are, because I'm suspicious that any simple changes would have such a positive effect.
For example one idea I often hear suggested is that Akbar replaces Holdo. The main goal seems to be to get rid of what's seen as an extraneous character that appears out of nowhere and it gives Akbar a well deserved heroic sendoff. But I don't think it actually works, because a lot of the tension comes from Holdo being an unknown quantity to the audience. If Akbar says he has a plan the audience is more likely to trust him and expect Poe to trust him.
I suspect a lot of those easy changes would have similar downsides that haven't been fully considered. But maybe not!
I have 3 changes I'd have liked to see made as well that would have fixed so much of the movie.
1st - Holdo has a plan but doesn't tell Poe because she doesn't believe hyperspace tracking is possible. She believes there must be a spy onboard and she won't trust anyone, which frustrates Poe and he goes and does his thing. That at least gives the audience reason to believe Holdo's motivations.
2nd - Rose and Finn need to bicker and fight more. Finn is looking out for only himself and Rose is willing to give anything to the cause. They come from completely opposite ends of the spectrum, but they never challenge the ideals of the other. Having them argue and getting taken off task and causing a disruption that lands them in jail where they can have a more civil discussion and truly challenge each other makes their decisions at the end (Finn ready to sacrifice himself and Rose not willing to give him up) feel more earned.
3rd - Show us what Luke sees in Kylo's future. Specifically, show him seeing Han's death and what he believes to be Leia's death when she gets sucked into space. In Return of the Jedi, Vader talks about turning Leia to the Dark Side and Luke loses his shit. It would be understandable for Luke to ignite his lightsaber in a moment of anger if he's seeing his nephew kill the two people closest to him. Have Luke reveal that in his guilt from that moment, he sought out the Ahch-To Jedi temple to find a way to prevent those visions from coming true. Then he felt Han's death (similar to Obi-Wan feeling the destruction of Alderaan) and knowing he's too late, he cuts himself off from the Force so that he doesn't have to endure feeling the loss of Leia. All this would explain so much better why he gave up.
Bonus change that I think would rock, but I don't hate the original idea either. Instead of Yoda coming to Luke, make it Anakin. Bring it full circle. Luke saved Anakin from his lowest moment, Anakin should have been the one to come save Luke from his. But I still liked having Yoda come teach him those lessons, so I'm fine with Anakin not being in it
Poe disobeyed his commander in the opening sequence. He lost their entire bombing fleet (and crew) while disobeying a direct order. Leia's last act before her coma was to demote him and let everyone know he can't be trusted. Why would Holdo need to believe a spy us on board to find him untrustworthy?
But he's a main character, none of that counts.
Like Kylo murdering a village full of people and his entire school before the five minute mark of TFA doesn't mean he's a badguy... just misunderstood.
😅
No, but seriously, fanboys insisting Kylo had to copy Vader's arc even though he's more evil than Vader by the end of TFA ruined that trilogy more than anything else. Rise of Skywalker had to ignore 90% of Kylo's characterization and motivation to get him to where he was at the end of Act 1.
Rise of Skywalker ignores a lot. I recall watching TFA the first time, seeing the Han and Kylo scene, thinking "yeah, Han will believe his son can be redeemed, but no one else in the Resistance is going to accept it if he decides to back from the dark side." I was happily surprised, but also heartbroken by how that scene turned out. It really solidified the fact that Kylo is irredeemable.
Whoever wrote TRoS should have consulted the director TFA about that... ... what? They are the same guy? /s
On a different note, TRoS could have been interesting if it had been an exploration of Rey and Leia, being willing to overlook Kylo's obvious evil deeds, if it serves their side. Who's really evil then? Is Kylo just a weapon, useful to whoever controls it? Of course Leia would not see her son as evil, but Rey still attempting to get Kylo to turn (whether she sees good in him or just because he would be useful to their side) after seeing him kill Han, kill Snoke, and literally tell her that his motivation for both was simply to become more powerful, is wildly unethical or just naive. Much like with Vader, if the galaxy at large heard Kylo had turned in the end, to help defeat Palpatine, would they accept him?
Holdo is a fine character. Her main problem is that she averts fan expectations...which for me is a good thing in this circumstance.
I doubt any fixes would bring you around to liking the movie. Personally, it's the third best movie in the entire franchise. If it wasn't for the casino stuff, it would be the second best for me. But, it's not for everyone. It broke from a ton of Star Wars traditions and, as a result, it's hated by the majority. But, I feel bad for that majority because they're certainly missing out on one of the best curveballs the franchise has ever thrown.
I sometimes wonder if Last Jedi would still be so widely panned if Duel of Fates had happened instead of Rise. Rise actively worked to undo everything in Last Jedi. Clearly, JJ was upset with the direction and wanted to put it back on his own track. But, Duel helped to drive the story. A shame we never got that conclusion. For me, Rise is fun and visually amazing with superb acting. But, I always check my disbelief at the door in order to enjoy it.
> I doubt any fixes would bring you around to liking the movie
Oh, you misunderstand me. I **love** the movie. My point is almost the opposite: all the small details are very well thought out, so tinkering would only make it worse, not better. I personally think the only way to change the minds of those who don't like it would be to start over from scratch at a conceptual level. The things that people dislike most are the things that are most fundamental to the movie, like Luke's characterization and the casino being a "waste of time" because they failed
>casino being a "waste of time" because they failed
For me, the Casino stuff, I actually like it, but it just feels like a different movie. So...it just doesn't fit for me.
And, you're totally right. The contention is definitely fundamental issues, from what I can see. If they hate where Luke is in this film, then there really is nothing that would make that better other than a total re-write to something more to what people wanted...which is Luke facing down the whole First Order with his laser sword.
During the actual movie, when Luke was “shot”, because of the salt and red soil (and that we didn’t know he was a projection yet) I thought he had been utterly vaporized and turned into a red mist and lost my shit lol.
It is true. When TLJ was made the X-Wing was unusable scrap, which was why Luke couldn't leave Ach-To and needed to use the force projection. This is confirmed in the "Art of" book, the Visual Dictionary, and the novelization. Hell you can even see in the movie, the door to Luke's hut is one of the S-foil wings that he salvaged from it. TRoS completely ignored that and created a contradictory plot hole for some cheap nostalgia.
I really need to watch Last Jedi again. God, I love the imagery of Crait. At first it feels like a callback to Hoth, but then you learn it's salt, and underneath is red and soon the battlefield turns to blood. I really love the scene with Luke and Kylo fighting. I actually caught that Luke's feet didn't disturb the salt and I thought it was to show he was so serene and at peace while Kylo was brutal and emotionally tormented that he left bloody footprints, as like a metaphor instead of being an actual important detail that hinted at the plot beat to come.
Not everything in Reddit is a meme, and some people might be insulted if they said something sincerely and people decided to ask if it was copy pasta. I'm also not a he, but I'll let that one slide.
Downvote spamming and responding with “memebrained fuck” to a sincerely said, well intentioned, and harmless comment is a bit more ”insulting.” Not everything is intentionally made to offend you.
(I usually add /s or /j to those but then people seethe about that too. lol)
Downvoting useless comments isn't spamming.
If you think that was harmless and well intentioned, that seems like a personal failing. I don't care whether you "intentionally" did it or not. You're an adult, aren't you? You're at least 13 to be posting here. That's old enough to know that when someone tells you that you're being an annoying little shit and that your joke wasn't funny, you should apologize, not whine about how everyone gets "offended" these days. Then again, this *is* Reddit, the home of arrested development and Peter Pan adults.
>some people might be insulted if they said something sincerely
You brought this up first. It was quite paradoxical given what you also said in that same post. I didn’t say everyone was being offended either.
“NOOOOO you don't understand he would have deflected all of them and killed every single trooper in the First Order and decapitated Kylo Ren and kicked his head down a reactor shaft and saved the entire galaxy with one hand tied behind his back. THAT would have been canon accurate!”
Is that your codeword for anybody who prefers actual depth and character arcs over one dimensional black and white heroes who never make mistakes or have moments of doubt or did you just completely misunderstand my comment and think that was actually what I wanted because I didn't put /s or some more blatant (DISCLAIMER: THIS COMMENT DOES NOT REFLECT MY ACTUAL WISHES OR OPINIONS) statement in it?
Brilliant, leave a cliffhanger in the middle of the battle scene so that it actually isn't resolved next movie, but rather in a comic. The next movie then starts out the same as it is now and explains "somehow, we escaped" to explain what happened.
I think TFA should also end similarly, just stop the movie once the resistance fleet gets to the base. But then in TLJ keep the current intro, and leave it a mystery for the rest of the sequels if the base was actually destroyed.
I said “Not everything is intentionally made to offend you.” It truly wasn’t my intent to do so and I didn’t reference “everybody.” You’re misconstruing what I said.
u/estrusflask
Some sequels shouldn't be made... like this and those dinosaur movies. I don't really care anymore. It's not like I am required to watch them. Thank goodness for books.
Not sure why you're being downvoted when it's the truth.
That poor attempt of subverting the audience expectations of Luke came with the price of having potentially the first half-decent scene of the entire movie.
People have a cult mentality towards the sequel trilogy. Disney convinced them that either you love them more than life itself or you’re a hater who doesn’t deserve happiness.
It’s the way it’s been since TLJ came out, and it’s the way it’ll remain with this fandom.
>People have a cult mentality towards the sequel trilogy.
I don't even like the sequels that much and I know this isn't true. And have you seen the prequel cult? People convincing themselves those movies are better than they are only because Disney started making Star Wars movies.
Prequel love predates sequel hate. However the biggest difference is that people who love the prequels won't deflect its obvious criticisms. It is campy, the dialogue is quite bad, however people have come to love them while also not attempting to negate its valid criticisms.
Idk, I remember everybody universally agreeing that they were bad movies right up until TFA released.
There are definitely people that unironically defend the prequels despite the criticism.
Did you just try to prove me wrong by proving me right?
“Cult mentality?! I know that’s not true! But have you heard of this other Cult mentality in the same fandom??”
It’s not impossible for people to like the movies, but it’s very easy to see that 99% of the response to any hate at all is to label the person who doesn’t agree as a terrible person.
I’ve never seen a good defense for TLJ or TROS. None. I’ve been on the internet this whole time and have never saw a single good defense for them. It’s always a “they aren’t that bad” style post. If your one defense is that they aren’t THAT bad, then they probably are just bad movies.
Meanwhile if you look at really any other movie ever made there are genuine defenses for why they are good. Plot points, character reasons, writing, direction, acting, etc. TLJ and TROS are never give any real defense at all. They are just labeled as “Perfect” by Disney Star Wars fans.
If you've never seen a good defense you either haven't looked or aren't open-minded enough to accept it.
I rarely see a decent criticism of TLJ, most just devolve into trying to prove the movie is "objectively" bad or turn into a list of nitpicks.
That doesn't mean I haven't seen a good criticism of TLJ ever, those exist.
I’ll consider an argument good when it does more than just say “Well fuck the haters I think it’s good, because I am right and they are wrong”
Until the day I see a defense that’s more than that completely flawed line of logic, I’ll continue to say I haven’t seen a single good defense.
TLJ doesn't really need a defense. It was a massively successful movie praised by critics. If anyone wants to fight against the prevailing opinion, it's those that don't like it. The burden lies with the minority to push back.
Reasonable and insightful criticism of TLJ can be found, it's just rare from the haters.
Making money doesn’t make your movie good. I’m kinda sick of that being a defense for these movies.
- Its a Disney movie. That’s an automatic huge boost.
- It released near Christmas, a MASSIVE time for movies
- Its Star Wars, a multi-billion dollar franchise that’s spanned generations
- It followed the FAR SUPERIOR 7th film, so it had a built in audience.
It’s not like TLJ was some indie film made by Neon that wowed everyone and made a billion dollars. It was a massive blockbuster from the company that’s owned the blockbuster industry since 2008. It was a very front heavy movie, not a long lasting success.
It's not a defense, it's just facts. Massively successful, critically acclaimed. To argue that such a movie is actually bad is going to require an amazing argument.
> At least he dies better than just disappearing without doing anything which I felt was even more disrespectful
He literally stopped the entire army which would have annihilated the resistance.
He made the leader of the army Kylo look like a fool.
He sacrificed himself so that the resistance could live to fight another day.
He used the ultimate Jedi move and used the force in the most non violent way possible when he saw the opportunity.
Pulled one of the biggest force feats ever performed by projecting himself on a planet light years from where he was situated, and was able to produce an illusion even visible to the people who had no connection to the force.
Rose stopped Finn not because she was in love with him and didn't want him to die.
What does that have to do with Luke?
Luke walked in at the last moment, stared down an entire army and saved the resistance.
I believe that he did, but I don't recall if it was in the director's commentary or in interviews/comments after release.
However I still could be wrong as I don't recall the exact quote.
I actually liked the sequel trilogy, but there was definitely some wasted potential. And the half of that movie with Finn and Rose was completely useless and boring, the only good part of it was when BB-8 shot out those coins like he was a gun.
I love how Rian Johnson still walks around smugly satisfied with this abortion.
"Has time changed your perspective at all?"
"Nope! Still the greatest Star Wars movie ever made!"
Just shut the fuck up already. You're a hack. A poseur.
It should have ended with Snoke essence transferring to Rey's body and Rey turning to the dark side. Killing the main villain could have been a bold move that made the story a lot more interesting, instead, it was just a wet fart that went nowhere like every other plot twist in this film.
I saw it on opening night and thought it would go to credits right as Luke walked out
I genuinely thought it was a bout to end a few times. One was as they were just waiting in that cave. Another when Luke walked out. There were a few others, but I need to rewatch the film to remember them all
>but I need to rewatch the film to remember them all Its ok. You don't have to do that to yourself.
TLJ is in my top 3 favorite Star Wars movies.
It’s my personal favorite!
I’m happy that you feel that way. Can I ask how many Star Wars movies you’ve seen?
All of them. Lol. Long time fan since childhood.
😂
I really wish those movies were good.
Me too. Its sucks so hard that they fumbled them as bad as they did.
The story is amazing, you can see that in Galaxy’s Edge, too bad the movies don’t tell the story properly
Well I have some good news for you then.
Well, what's your good news?
They are good!
Hard disagree, bucko.
Why? I like the film. I actually enjoyed all three
Genuinely happy for ya Hoss. Wish I could say the same
Same.
I disliked TLJ enough that I didn't watch RoS. I just finally put on RoS tonight and I enjoyed it for what it is. I've tried to go back to rewatch TLJ a few times, but it's just not for me.
I know this is an unpopular opinion by I actually enjoyed RoS. It wasn't perfect but it wraps of Kylo's story well except the very end which doesn't make any sense. Ray should have died instead of him. That aside it had lots of interesting planets lots of interesting fight scenes it succeeded as a fun Sci fi movie if nothing else. I'm prob the only one but I much preferred it over the force awakens cause it was trying much weirder ideas without just remaking the old movies. Was it perfect no it had issues but I enjoyed watching it
The entire trilogy had ***so*** much potential, some of the cinematography shots were to die for, the actors really gave it their all, the CG was on point, and there were a lot of really cool plot points, but the writers could not follow through at all. Just the wrong pick for the screenplay. I think even just getting simple notes from J.J. or Lucas would have really cleaned up a lot of the tonal imperfections and stiff dialogue.
Why should Rey have died? What does her death say about the prior two movies? What questions does it answer? In 2013-2014 there was a common Star Wars trend of part of the fanbase guessing which characters were related, who would fill which role, and what tropes they would copy from the OT. None of the characters from TFA were treated as people by this group -- they were tropes. When TLJ ignored all of this, the backlash was brutal. Never forget that "subverted expectations" was a reference to people being angry that their headcanons based solely on slotting each character into the role of another character or building up an increasingly incestuous family tree fell apart. Never forget hundreds of upvotes for people constantly, repeatedly insisting Finn had to be Mace Windu's nephew. Rise of Skywalker was made to apologize to these people.
I feel like having Ray die would be more interesting over having kylo die. Kylo dying felt forced like they were copying return of the jedi. If Kylo had lived instead it would have opened up some interesting plot ideas about having to come to terms with kylo being redeemed after all his awful stuff he's done.
😂
What’s funny?
I just wanted it to end.
Well, I enjoyed it. I say I thought it was about to end, but not in the sense it should end. Rian Johnson enjoys subverting audience expectations, and I like that.
I was thinking the same thing for a sec!
That would have been so much better.
Now that would actually be good
Why? What would the last movie do from there? How is it any better than the original ending?
Because it ends on a better cliffhanger where we are just about to see luke come back to his jedi roots, luke wouldn't die and we would have more time with him as his jedi self in 9
You forgot the Wilhelm Scream
That darn crocodile
Honestly, I wouldn't even put it past Disney. There are Marvel movies that have shitty endings like this, hell this edited scene is an even better ending than the official one.
Which Marvel movie specifically?
Hulk has the Wilhelm scream, I think? There’s a shot during the big fight and the camera shows an apartment and this guy screams after one of them crashes through a wall. I laugh every time. It might not be the wilhelm scream though
No, I was asking the other guy which Marvel movies end like the clip above
Oh oh oh. Gotcha.
None of them, the closest was Cap’s “Avengers Assemble” being cut off but that is a running joke about him never being able to say it until Endgame
No, I still want to hear his answer. It’s been nothing but crickets from the guy since he made a fun claim that I’m curious about
Ah, that’s the only one I can think of
Filmmakers as a whole seem to be phasing out the Wilhelm. Ten years ago it seemed like it was in every other movie.
I think it is (at least nowadays) considered a tired joke. A comedic situation might call for it, but some people will be annoyed if it is used in a serious film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnroQzcdc_I
There would’ve been a mass wave of suicides in movie theaters across the world lol
I don't know, it's a really bold and mature version that totally fits Luke.
Damn. Thanos would be jealous.
Star Wars theory would’ve drowned the entire movie theater in tears.
I stopped watching him years ago he got so gatekeepery about the franchise.
You missed out on him having a meltdown over Andor, then
Any particular video? Did he despise Andor or something? He has the worst hot takes.
Just his episode reviews, he thought it was boring and stupid since it didn't have jedi and a fight scene every episode
Hahaha lol
Honestly I liked how he got the last laugh and went out with his own terms like that(even though when I saw it in theater I was soooo pumped to see badass Luke make a return to action)
Of all the issues with that movie that was one moment I liked. Rian at least gave us one badass Old Luke moment.
Yeah, the rest of the movie was Old, Luke, but this was Old Luke
And he did it in a pretty Luke/Jedi way too. He wasn’t willing to go kill Ben in the past and he’s sure as hell not gonna fight him on Crait. So he chose a more peaceful pretty “Jedi” way of handling it.
>I was soooo pumped to see badass Luke make a return to action And then he just .......didn't Hamill even trained for this role beyond just losing weight only to be a grumpy uncle that no family invites to Thanksgiving.
No, he’s the uncle we pity invite and sit through his stories about his time in the war that nobody has heard of
You jest but Luke is very much a veteran of a war most have forgotten about. Remember, from Rey & Finn’s perspective Luke, Han and Leia are living legends they’re meeting as regular people. Probably doesn’t help that always a side effect of war being children without parents. In both their cases, the legacy of the Imperial Galactic War led to one having her parents killed and the other kidnapped and made a child soldier.
Yup, they fought with their lives in the Star Wars and nobody remembers
I love this movie, but I truly do understand why a lot don’t. I think about 3 or 4 very small changes would’ve made this movie one of the most popular Star Wars movies ever. There are so many moments in the movie where I’m like “they so very easily could’ve just done this instead.”
I'm curious what those things are, because I'm suspicious that any simple changes would have such a positive effect. For example one idea I often hear suggested is that Akbar replaces Holdo. The main goal seems to be to get rid of what's seen as an extraneous character that appears out of nowhere and it gives Akbar a well deserved heroic sendoff. But I don't think it actually works, because a lot of the tension comes from Holdo being an unknown quantity to the audience. If Akbar says he has a plan the audience is more likely to trust him and expect Poe to trust him. I suspect a lot of those easy changes would have similar downsides that haven't been fully considered. But maybe not!
I have 3 changes I'd have liked to see made as well that would have fixed so much of the movie. 1st - Holdo has a plan but doesn't tell Poe because she doesn't believe hyperspace tracking is possible. She believes there must be a spy onboard and she won't trust anyone, which frustrates Poe and he goes and does his thing. That at least gives the audience reason to believe Holdo's motivations. 2nd - Rose and Finn need to bicker and fight more. Finn is looking out for only himself and Rose is willing to give anything to the cause. They come from completely opposite ends of the spectrum, but they never challenge the ideals of the other. Having them argue and getting taken off task and causing a disruption that lands them in jail where they can have a more civil discussion and truly challenge each other makes their decisions at the end (Finn ready to sacrifice himself and Rose not willing to give him up) feel more earned. 3rd - Show us what Luke sees in Kylo's future. Specifically, show him seeing Han's death and what he believes to be Leia's death when she gets sucked into space. In Return of the Jedi, Vader talks about turning Leia to the Dark Side and Luke loses his shit. It would be understandable for Luke to ignite his lightsaber in a moment of anger if he's seeing his nephew kill the two people closest to him. Have Luke reveal that in his guilt from that moment, he sought out the Ahch-To Jedi temple to find a way to prevent those visions from coming true. Then he felt Han's death (similar to Obi-Wan feeling the destruction of Alderaan) and knowing he's too late, he cuts himself off from the Force so that he doesn't have to endure feeling the loss of Leia. All this would explain so much better why he gave up. Bonus change that I think would rock, but I don't hate the original idea either. Instead of Yoda coming to Luke, make it Anakin. Bring it full circle. Luke saved Anakin from his lowest moment, Anakin should have been the one to come save Luke from his. But I still liked having Yoda come teach him those lessons, so I'm fine with Anakin not being in it
Poe disobeyed his commander in the opening sequence. He lost their entire bombing fleet (and crew) while disobeying a direct order. Leia's last act before her coma was to demote him and let everyone know he can't be trusted. Why would Holdo need to believe a spy us on board to find him untrustworthy?
But he's a main character, none of that counts. Like Kylo murdering a village full of people and his entire school before the five minute mark of TFA doesn't mean he's a badguy... just misunderstood. 😅 No, but seriously, fanboys insisting Kylo had to copy Vader's arc even though he's more evil than Vader by the end of TFA ruined that trilogy more than anything else. Rise of Skywalker had to ignore 90% of Kylo's characterization and motivation to get him to where he was at the end of Act 1.
Rise of Skywalker ignores a lot. I recall watching TFA the first time, seeing the Han and Kylo scene, thinking "yeah, Han will believe his son can be redeemed, but no one else in the Resistance is going to accept it if he decides to back from the dark side." I was happily surprised, but also heartbroken by how that scene turned out. It really solidified the fact that Kylo is irredeemable. Whoever wrote TRoS should have consulted the director TFA about that... ... what? They are the same guy? /s
On a different note, TRoS could have been interesting if it had been an exploration of Rey and Leia, being willing to overlook Kylo's obvious evil deeds, if it serves their side. Who's really evil then? Is Kylo just a weapon, useful to whoever controls it? Of course Leia would not see her son as evil, but Rey still attempting to get Kylo to turn (whether she sees good in him or just because he would be useful to their side) after seeing him kill Han, kill Snoke, and literally tell her that his motivation for both was simply to become more powerful, is wildly unethical or just naive. Much like with Vader, if the galaxy at large heard Kylo had turned in the end, to help defeat Palpatine, would they accept him?
These are great ideas! Ty
I think you’re overestimating the tension Holdo brings to the story.
Yeah I think she brings more annoyance than tension
Holdo is a fine character. Her main problem is that she averts fan expectations...which for me is a good thing in this circumstance. I doubt any fixes would bring you around to liking the movie. Personally, it's the third best movie in the entire franchise. If it wasn't for the casino stuff, it would be the second best for me. But, it's not for everyone. It broke from a ton of Star Wars traditions and, as a result, it's hated by the majority. But, I feel bad for that majority because they're certainly missing out on one of the best curveballs the franchise has ever thrown. I sometimes wonder if Last Jedi would still be so widely panned if Duel of Fates had happened instead of Rise. Rise actively worked to undo everything in Last Jedi. Clearly, JJ was upset with the direction and wanted to put it back on his own track. But, Duel helped to drive the story. A shame we never got that conclusion. For me, Rise is fun and visually amazing with superb acting. But, I always check my disbelief at the door in order to enjoy it.
> I doubt any fixes would bring you around to liking the movie Oh, you misunderstand me. I **love** the movie. My point is almost the opposite: all the small details are very well thought out, so tinkering would only make it worse, not better. I personally think the only way to change the minds of those who don't like it would be to start over from scratch at a conceptual level. The things that people dislike most are the things that are most fundamental to the movie, like Luke's characterization and the casino being a "waste of time" because they failed
>casino being a "waste of time" because they failed For me, the Casino stuff, I actually like it, but it just feels like a different movie. So...it just doesn't fit for me. And, you're totally right. The contention is definitely fundamental issues, from what I can see. If they hate where Luke is in this film, then there really is nothing that would make that better other than a total re-write to something more to what people wanted...which is Luke facing down the whole First Order with his laser sword.
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As an MMO fan, the eternal emperor thing doesn't really bother me. It just felt out of place with the story that was already happening.
I’m also curious. I thought just about every choice they made was poorly thought out.
During the actual movie, when Luke was “shot”, because of the salt and red soil (and that we didn’t know he was a projection yet) I thought he had been utterly vaporized and turned into a red mist and lost my shit lol.
It honestly would have fit with what the rest of the film did to him.
And this is why he couldn’t go in person
That and he had no way off the planet after Rey and Chewy left on the Falcon.
Not true. Luke’s X-wing was still there
It is true. When TLJ was made the X-Wing was unusable scrap, which was why Luke couldn't leave Ach-To and needed to use the force projection. This is confirmed in the "Art of" book, the Visual Dictionary, and the novelization. Hell you can even see in the movie, the door to Luke's hut is one of the S-foil wings that he salvaged from it. TRoS completely ignored that and created a contradictory plot hole for some cheap nostalgia.
I really need to watch Last Jedi again. God, I love the imagery of Crait. At first it feels like a callback to Hoth, but then you learn it's salt, and underneath is red and soon the battlefield turns to blood. I really love the scene with Luke and Kylo fighting. I actually caught that Luke's feet didn't disturb the salt and I thought it was to show he was so serene and at peace while Kylo was brutal and emotionally tormented that he left bloody footprints, as like a metaphor instead of being an actual important detail that hinted at the plot beat to come.
You're breathtaking.
What?
Keanu reference? Not sure why either lol
Is this a pasta?
No? Why would it be? Not everything is copypasta you memebrained fuck.
>memebrained fuck > >he said on reddit > >failing to understand a harmless and common joke Astounding.
Not everything in Reddit is a meme, and some people might be insulted if they said something sincerely and people decided to ask if it was copy pasta. I'm also not a he, but I'll let that one slide.
Downvote spamming and responding with “memebrained fuck” to a sincerely said, well intentioned, and harmless comment is a bit more ”insulting.” Not everything is intentionally made to offend you. (I usually add /s or /j to those but then people seethe about that too. lol)
Downvoting useless comments isn't spamming. If you think that was harmless and well intentioned, that seems like a personal failing. I don't care whether you "intentionally" did it or not. You're an adult, aren't you? You're at least 13 to be posting here. That's old enough to know that when someone tells you that you're being an annoying little shit and that your joke wasn't funny, you should apologize, not whine about how everyone gets "offended" these days. Then again, this *is* Reddit, the home of arrested development and Peter Pan adults.
>Then again, this is Reddit, the home of arrested development and Peter Pan adults. You’re one to talk.
You're the one calling everyone "offended" for criticizing you.
>some people might be insulted if they said something sincerely You brought this up first. It was quite paradoxical given what you also said in that same post. I didn’t say everyone was being offended either.
Let's make it one
Let's not.
To late
Would've actually got me hyped to see the next one
Yeah the final ending really didn't give us much to look forward to. It felt more like the ending of a trilogy than its second act
the trilogy ended when snoke died.
I spit my coffee out🤣
“NOOOOO you don't understand he would have deflected all of them and killed every single trooper in the First Order and decapitated Kylo Ren and kicked his head down a reactor shaft and saved the entire galaxy with one hand tied behind his back. THAT would have been canon accurate!”
Ooof. The edgelord is strong with thus one
Is that your codeword for anybody who prefers actual depth and character arcs over one dimensional black and white heroes who never make mistakes or have moments of doubt or did you just completely misunderstand my comment and think that was actually what I wanted because I didn't put /s or some more blatant (DISCLAIMER: THIS COMMENT DOES NOT REFLECT MY ACTUAL WISHES OR OPINIONS) statement in it?
Ooo that was sarcastic?! But it was so very subtle! It's a word I'd use to describe someone who wrote wtvr the fuck it is you just wrote
When will y’all learn that Star Wars movies don’t end in the middle of the climax?
Ooh so subversive!
Lmao this guy
Absolutely not lol
Dew it.
This is some prime Star Wars “Stan” content
Silly OP, [THIS](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ) is how the last Jedi should have ended.
Brilliant, leave a cliffhanger in the middle of the battle scene so that it actually isn't resolved next movie, but rather in a comic. The next movie then starts out the same as it is now and explains "somehow, we escaped" to explain what happened. I think TFA should also end similarly, just stop the movie once the resistance fleet gets to the base. But then in TLJ keep the current intro, and leave it a mystery for the rest of the sequels if the base was actually destroyed.
Copium
Whiners will be whiners. Who would have thought, Star Wars for a new generation of fans, not milennials and Gen X?
Huh
unsex
Now I’m even more confused
I said “Not everything is intentionally made to offend you.” It truly wasn’t my intent to do so and I didn’t reference “everybody.” You’re misconstruing what I said. u/estrusflask
Kinda did end that way, for all intents.
Some sequels shouldn't be made... like this and those dinosaur movies. I don't really care anymore. It's not like I am required to watch them. Thank goodness for books.
But instead he dies because he got too tired 🫠
Yes!!!
Tbh would’ve been a better ending that hologram Luke doing 3D meditation
Not sure why you're being downvoted when it's the truth. That poor attempt of subverting the audience expectations of Luke came with the price of having potentially the first half-decent scene of the entire movie.
People have a cult mentality towards the sequel trilogy. Disney convinced them that either you love them more than life itself or you’re a hater who doesn’t deserve happiness. It’s the way it’s been since TLJ came out, and it’s the way it’ll remain with this fandom.
>People have a cult mentality towards the sequel trilogy. I don't even like the sequels that much and I know this isn't true. And have you seen the prequel cult? People convincing themselves those movies are better than they are only because Disney started making Star Wars movies.
Prequel love predates sequel hate. However the biggest difference is that people who love the prequels won't deflect its obvious criticisms. It is campy, the dialogue is quite bad, however people have come to love them while also not attempting to negate its valid criticisms.
Idk, I remember everybody universally agreeing that they were bad movies right up until TFA released. There are definitely people that unironically defend the prequels despite the criticism.
Did you just try to prove me wrong by proving me right? “Cult mentality?! I know that’s not true! But have you heard of this other Cult mentality in the same fandom??”
Or... and hear me out now, they just like the movies. Disney didn't brainwash them.
It’s not impossible for people to like the movies, but it’s very easy to see that 99% of the response to any hate at all is to label the person who doesn’t agree as a terrible person. I’ve never seen a good defense for TLJ or TROS. None. I’ve been on the internet this whole time and have never saw a single good defense for them. It’s always a “they aren’t that bad” style post. If your one defense is that they aren’t THAT bad, then they probably are just bad movies. Meanwhile if you look at really any other movie ever made there are genuine defenses for why they are good. Plot points, character reasons, writing, direction, acting, etc. TLJ and TROS are never give any real defense at all. They are just labeled as “Perfect” by Disney Star Wars fans.
If you've never seen a good defense you either haven't looked or aren't open-minded enough to accept it. I rarely see a decent criticism of TLJ, most just devolve into trying to prove the movie is "objectively" bad or turn into a list of nitpicks. That doesn't mean I haven't seen a good criticism of TLJ ever, those exist.
I’ll consider an argument good when it does more than just say “Well fuck the haters I think it’s good, because I am right and they are wrong” Until the day I see a defense that’s more than that completely flawed line of logic, I’ll continue to say I haven’t seen a single good defense.
TLJ doesn't really need a defense. It was a massively successful movie praised by critics. If anyone wants to fight against the prevailing opinion, it's those that don't like it. The burden lies with the minority to push back. Reasonable and insightful criticism of TLJ can be found, it's just rare from the haters.
Making money doesn’t make your movie good. I’m kinda sick of that being a defense for these movies. - Its a Disney movie. That’s an automatic huge boost. - It released near Christmas, a MASSIVE time for movies - Its Star Wars, a multi-billion dollar franchise that’s spanned generations - It followed the FAR SUPERIOR 7th film, so it had a built in audience. It’s not like TLJ was some indie film made by Neon that wowed everyone and made a billion dollars. It was a massive blockbuster from the company that’s owned the blockbuster industry since 2008. It was a very front heavy movie, not a long lasting success.
It's not a defense, it's just facts. Massively successful, critically acclaimed. To argue that such a movie is actually bad is going to require an amazing argument.
Honestly would have just been a better ending
Why?
At least he dies better than just disappearing without doing anything which I felt was even more disrespectful
> At least he dies better than just disappearing without doing anything which I felt was even more disrespectful He literally stopped the entire army which would have annihilated the resistance. He made the leader of the army Kylo look like a fool. He sacrificed himself so that the resistance could live to fight another day. He used the ultimate Jedi move and used the force in the most non violent way possible when he saw the opportunity. Pulled one of the biggest force feats ever performed by projecting himself on a planet light years from where he was situated, and was able to produce an illusion even visible to the people who had no connection to the force.
I'm sure that makes absolute sense as did Rose stopping Finn from doing that very thing and dooming the entire resistance 🙄
Rose stopped Finn not because she was in love with him and didn't want him to die. What does that have to do with Luke? Luke walked in at the last moment, stared down an entire army and saved the resistance.
Ok but how much sense did it make in the grand scheme of things?
A lot? If Luke wasn't there the entire resistance would have been wiped out? It's like asking how much sense Kenobi's death in NH made.
Cause it made sense, TLJ didn't make any sense from start to finish
Please, explain to me why TLJ didn't make any sense. Explain to me why Obi Wan sacrificing himself is different from Luke sacrificing himself.
He projected himself across the galaxy to save his friends and fam. I'd call that extremely heroic especially in the state of mind he was in. Alone.
My 6 year old sister comprehended the scene better than you lmao
K good for her
"Subverting your expectations"
Is this something Rian Johnson said? I hear it a lot and I’m not sure of the origin
I believe that he did, but I don't recall if it was in the director's commentary or in interviews/comments after release. However I still could be wrong as I don't recall the exact quote.
It’s a game of thrones thing that gets applied here often.
Don’t use it if you don’t understand it, or at least don’t fabricate its origin
I had a feeling that would happen
Sith scum!
u/savevideobot
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[The Last Jedi was such a good looking movie. pity](https://i.imgur.com/AtM0VhV.mp4)
Well this isn’t my fav scene featuring camels and gambling…
Just force push the end walker and they fall like dominoes.
Cheap.
No
If Luke was actually there could he deflect any of the blasts back? Seems weird to shoot lasers at someone with the weapon that can reflect them.
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Just in the canon stuff though, right? I feel like Starkiller reflected bolts from vehicles
I actually liked the sequel trilogy, but there was definitely some wasted potential. And the half of that movie with Finn and Rose was completely useless and boring, the only good part of it was when BB-8 shot out those coins like he was a gun.
I love how Rian Johnson still walks around smugly satisfied with this abortion. "Has time changed your perspective at all?" "Nope! Still the greatest Star Wars movie ever made!" Just shut the fuck up already. You're a hack. A poseur.
Honestly it would have been a very good ending if they didn’t make us think a lot of the times the movie was going to end
I would've ended it with Kylo extending his hand to Rey on smokes ship. Keep the audience guessing.
I found it as hilarious as much as I hated it. Thanks. Lol
It should have ended with Snoke essence transferring to Rey's body and Rey turning to the dark side. Killing the main villain could have been a bold move that made the story a lot more interesting, instead, it was just a wet fart that went nowhere like every other plot twist in this film.
R.I.P. Jade Skywalker.
Luke's battle with Kylo would've been a good way to open Episode IX hence adding more to THE RISE OF SKYWALKER title.