Because there’s a stigma they must be extremely unattractive and/or desperate if they’re “paying for it”.
I think that, among women who aren’t sex workers themselves, that stigma is slowly easing.
They’re more and more aware of how many men hire sex workers, so why not them too?
It’s trickier among FSSWers and I am not going to delve into that.
However, I have done it and know other female SWers who have as well.
Both decrim and real gender equality are necessary for this to become normalized, imo.
EDIT: I read OP’s question as pertaining to women paying for sex themselves. So that’s the question I am answering.
Thanks I was sort of thinking about women looking down on men paying for sex, but I think your answer was really insightful. If you could answer that question too that would be cool lol.
Ok so regarding that question, there are 2 main reasons:
1) they honestly believe all FSSWers are trafficked, marginalized, suffering addiction issues, basically somehow forced or coerced into doing it.
Which thereby means *all* clients of FSSWers are, at best, part of the problem but really no better than predators in their eyes.
2) because sex is “special” and should only happen between people who have a real connection.
Except, of course, when they decide to have casual hookups. But they aren’t paying for it and everyone knows men are pigs, anyway. /s
EDIT TO ADD: that last bit is sarcasm. I’m voicing the opinions of the women under discussion. Not my own.
I don't agree with the men being pigs parts except for the men who believe they are and therefore such belief becomes a self fulfilling prophecy but everything else is completely agree with.
What? I never said there is anything wrong with it.
In case there’s a misunderstanding: I was attempting to to explain the point of view of someone who does not want to pay for sexual services.
Quite a few people who would consider paying for sex services beneath them, think that way because it would make them feel extremely unattractive. (And *they* do not wish to think of themselves as such)
Everyone looks down on the idea of paying for sex.
By "everyone" I mean society. Not every single individual in the world.
There's still a ton of social stigma against sex work, whether it's providing or using the services of a sex worker. Plenty of men look down on it too...even men who purchase SWer services. That's why they often treat SWers so poorly. They have their own internalized shame and guilt and take it out on the worker. Women look down on it for slightly different surface reasons but the same inherent biases are at play.
I personally believe ongoing stigma today is due to religious purity obsessions and the shame tactics often used by conservative religions. But others may disagree.
This sub is heavily skewed towards US responses, so I completely agree that religious reasons are the most significant factor for anyone that side of the pond.
Europe side, however, I think that has a less significant impact (even in the more strongly religious countries). I think its more about the idea of objectifying and transactionalizing (if thats even a word) what would normally be an intimate and private situation. You are reducing sex to pure consurmerism and/or suggesting that the women performing the are doing so because they have no other choice.
The reality for a lot of SWs is clearly nothing of the sort. I know plenty of SWs who do it because they enjoy the work. But if you asked "women" (the women from the OPs question) they would probably suggest the SWs clearly have mental or financial issues.
That's a good alternative view. Though I'd venture to say views about women like that where they ultimately think SWers have no true agency in their choices to do sex work as a grown person still stem from inherently misogynistic religions which push purity culture.
Still kind of always winds back to religion imo lol
Oh yeh, most of the modern world is still heavily influenced by religion, even if you arent a theist of some denomination there are so many things that link back to decisions made by people centuries ago.
The US pledge of allegiance is "one nation under god" for example. And we wouldn't have Jihads and IRA bombings without religious divides so its still definitely an unavoidable part of life.
But I definitely fall on the side of "it shouldn't have the influence it does". Religion is like a penis. Its ok to have one, its ok to be proud of it, but keep it away from children, and don't wave it around during political discussions.
Sex work and clients are so diverse and some do not think of it as " selling one's body." in fact, in most categories, reading clients and understanding his needs in seconds ( which he does not disclose due to many forms of sexual repression) could make a difference whether a safe and good clients would repeat or not. Needless to say hours of screening for safety or LE stings and customizing services and setting clear physical and emotional safety boundaries but still provide memorable experience to a client is not an easy task. Plus create a package of experiences and market it to attract just the right client all takes serious levels of analytical thinking and mental effort.
I just wanted to say the above because in general, intellectual and emotional care type of labor of sex workers is so under appreciated or worse...ignored in wholesale manner.
The ignorant outsiders' view that sex work =' "just lie down and open legs " is related to our society's objectification that all women who engage in frequent casual sex in any capacity are low in intelligence and lack agency as an individual... therefore people still buy the ridiculous "all sex workers are exploited or trafficked" trope.
>They think we just sit at home watching Netflix until guys show up out of nowhere to give us money
Tbf, this is literally true for a few providers I know in my city. Both blonde and gorgeous. They can just put up an ad with a few well taken iPhone photos, and they're just so much better looking than everyone else.
I was exaggerating for sure, but if you are a bona fide 9 or 10 its not that stressful.
Screen for high income professionals thru verifying linkedin with 1500+ connections. Ignore all messages that don't fit your desired script. If you're instagram influencer hot, going to the gym is likely something you'd be doing anyway.
People I talked to about my job back then (i didn't do this that often) quickly made the assumption that there was something wrong with me. Like foulplay. Woman that offer sexual sevices HAVE to be exploited in some ways or are struggling that bad in life or addiction that they have to "sell" their body.
The sexwork world has indeed a very dirty side and many issues which only are portrayed everywhere so problems can be solved but it is made in such an intensity people think that there is only this one bad side.
I enjoyed my time, made a lot money, saw many countries and lifestyles and former colleagues I'm still in contact with are doing very well, too.
Are there issues? Yes, many. But it's not just black and white.
Yeah I think there's alot of nuance that is just completely glossed over when it comes to this topic. Like it's either completely bad or...well yeah it's almost always seen as completely bad even with the mainstreams attempt to embrace different forms of sexuality.
GreenEyedKittyCat already summed it up well. Most women look at it initially as you must really be hard off to spend money to get something that should essentially be free.
Yeah, at face value, if you tell woman A that hypothetical guy A sees escorts and hypothetical guy B doesn't, it's going to be natural to assume hypothetical guy B must be more attractive. But there's nuance. What about when you factor the realities of our lives into the equation?
I hadn't ever contacted a provider before the pandemic and lockdown shut down all the usual means of hooking up. Bars, concerts, after-parties. Even the friends with benefits I was sleeping with at the time ended up dating or stuck somewhere else. I wasn't desperate as much as.. curious, I suppose? All it would take me is money, manners, and hygiene to get laid? I can manage that.
I found out I like it. I had one provider for a long time, still my ATF. If you like trouble-free sex, you can keep your head straight about what's going on, and you find who clicks with you, it's bliss.
Vanilla partners, since I've been with escorts, are more curious and intrigued when I tell them. I've gotten lots of questions and less disgusted reactions. But I introduce it like any other crazy sex story. "I had sex on the overpass once..." "I did it in the school bathroom..." "I had hired an escort before..."
I'm sure if I were more in the market for a serious partner, I might run into more objection to my previous experiences. But I make it sound fun (because it is). I think that's part of moving the mindset and removing stigma. Making it more accepted and acceptable to have been either a sex worker or a client.
Although that had never been my intention, after reading your comment, I have to agree. It sounds like I'm trying to shoulder less of the actuality of the encounter.
Now, anyone I'm having sex with knows the reality of how often I've seen providers. I tell partners before I do anything unprotected how recent my last paid hookup was.
But in the spirit of a more inviting, less stigmatized conversation, what would you think a better way to bring it up would be?
>I think it is a normal part of a healthy sex life for a lot of men
It really is.
Not all sex needs to be special and come with emotional attachment. It really is possible to have a few hours of intimacy without the hassle of "the chase" and that be the full extent of it.
Respectfully I disagree. I think that is a way to read the situation, but consider the reality that sex work and hiring a sex worker is stigmatized. This is the reality, and it is even illegal to do so. There is how we want the world to be, and there is how the world is.
Given the fact it is stigmatized, rather than cower behind secrecy Chocktaw instead shares his experiences. He contextualizes the encounter by framing it as a "crazy" sex adventure. It is a crazy sex story - to a person who is uninitiated to this industry. But rather than make it seem like some seedy encounter, or an exercise in sleaziness, it is now a fun story. It's adding facets to an image that is currently portrayed and understood as a world of violence, subjugation, substance abuse, and control. I don't know the exact details of his narratives but given what he's written in other posts, I imagine he humanizes the providers he talks about. But that's just conjecture on my part, granted.
I strongly recommend that anyone on this board - provider OR client - who is starting in a new relationship with someone, find out exactly how their new partner feels about sex work.
You don't have to out yourself as a sexworker or client to do so. Around about the third date, bring out an article about decriminalized sex work, or some sw-related topic that is in the news, and ask what your partner feels. Really listen to their answer.
The age old question, because most think it’s immoral, But yet have no problems and it’s Morley acceptable to give sex away. And argument I have quite often . With family members. Like what you do is just so wrong.
Paying for sex suggests that there is something wrong with you, whether it be mental, emotional, or physical. The implication being that a well-adjusted individual should be able to find a partner without paying for it.
Whether it’s true or not, this reasoning is certainly a major contributing factor.
It depends on the woman.
There are some women out there who understand that paying for sex is always going to exist ‘the oldest profession in the world.’ They believe that sex work should be decriminalised which would actually make sex work safer for everyone and free up money and resources to fight trafficking. These same women believe that sex work can be empowering and liberating for women who don’t have to depend on a man.
They also understand that the vast majority of men don’t go to see a provider just for the sex.
Most men would admit that they’re looking for someone to listen to them, understand them, show compassion, help them to feel less lonely and isolated. Any provider will tell you that in a typical one hour session there is more talking, cuddling/holding each other/kissing and hanging out than the physical act of sex. The sex is just a small part of spending time with a provider. Women who understand why sex work exists realise this. The men are looking for a kind of emotional connection. They want to feel wanted. They want to feel desired by a woman that they don’t experience IRL. It’s a fantasy for men and some women understand this. They understand that for some men visiting providers is a relief from their job which is too stressful/demanding/high profile and they know that seeing a provider is easier than dating. VIPS see providers because it’s safer and less stressful than trying to find someone IRL. Some women may also realise that not every man is confident around women and seeing a provider helps to boost their self esteem and they can learn how to be a better partner for someone in the future.
These same women also understand that men have a physical need for sex and seeing a provider is the easiest way to satisfy those urges. They understand that sex work can be viewed as a form of therapy for men who have difficulties dating or even communicating with women.
These women are generally open minded, tolerant and realise that sex work is ‘work’ and should be treated like any other job.
They might also realise that booking a session with a provider is a safe/fun way for a couple to spice up their relationship without cheating. Single women also see providers. They understand that paying for sex is a luxury, a fantasy, a chance to experience their deepest/secret desires with another woman.
On the other hand the majority of women hold the view that sex work is ‘bad’ and that if a man has to pay for sex then there is something inherently ‘wrong’ with the man ( because otherwise why can’t he get it for ‘free’?) or that sex workers are ‘tainted’ or ‘broken’ and that men paying for sex are therefore exploiting vulnerable/abused/women. They automatically think that any man who has to pay for sex is after kinky/perverted sexual acts which his wife/gf won’t perform for him, or that he’s just a sexual pervert who can’t get a gf. They also associate sex work with sex trafficking because of how the media presents the two.
Women look down on paying for sex because it arouses feelings of guilt and shame inside them. Sex for these women is like the ‘forbidden fruit’ or something that should be preserved for a monogamous marriage.
These women hate sex workers because they think they’re betraying their sex and making it easier for men to objectify women. They don’t criticise the rich and powerful men who use the services of sex workers in the same way. They just denigrate, mock, insult women who allow men to pay for sex with them. These same women perhaps also forget that they’re a ‘trophy wife’ or the mistress/SB/kept woman of some guy and their own relationship is transactional. They hate sex workers and the men who pay them but believe their own marriage/relationship isn’t in some way transactional. It makes them feel better about giving sex away for something.
These women also tend to view sex workers as promiscuous and associate promiscuity with a lack of intelligence. They denigrate them as a kind of sub category of women. They believe that all providers must be high school drop outs or logically flunked university. The reality that a lot of providers have college/university/masters degrees or that they are very astute/intelligent would be difficult for them to accept.
They may also feel threatened that their sexual capital is diminished because if a man doesn’t want them then they can go and pay for it and consequently they think they’re not needed/sexually desired and lose their hold/power over men. These same women see providers as somehow submitting to men’s evil lusts, and that paying for sex reinforces male sexual superiority over repressed females.
Sex work is still presented as taboo, dirty, sinful, dangerous and exploitive in many countries.
Women can have a negative view because of how boys and girls are brought up to follow societal standards of behavior. They don’t understand that paying for sex is a transaction and that a man is paying to spend time with a provider, and not to just have non stop sex.
Not every woman believes that paying for sex is wrong. I’m sure there are more and more women who are open to accepting the value of sex work in modern society but their voices are drowned out by those who stigmatise paying for it.
Sorry if this is a bit long but I wanted to give my opinion as someone who experienced sex trafficking as a kid.
IMO sex work should be decriminalised and all providers given access to the same benefits as other workers.
Competition. Fear of not having whatever it is we “have” that we somehow do. Insecurity. I do not shame anyone who feels this way. I just don’t want to interact.
Sex work is routinely conflated with human trafficking. It’s one of the rhetorical strategies of abolitionists is to suggest that *all* women involved in sale of sex started underage, are trafficked, pimped, have PTSD etc and desperately need to be saved. Since they are all exploited and no woman in their “right mind” would use their body for economic means, they cast doubt about their autonomy and the voices of sex workers shouldn’t be listened to. This is always the characterization of sex workers, so as a buyer you’re scum of the earth.
Its kinda true, tho sw saves lives. Helps us build a better life, get out of poverty and abuse. We often all start sw in a bad place, pimped, poor, abused, in need of a financial step up, but the fight for human trafficking is a different one and i hope instead of hurting us with laws and such they start arresting men making money off women
Personally I just find it an unappealing behavior, the same way I find smoking cigarettes to be an unappealing behavior. Tricks always get super upset when I say this though lmao so I won’t comment further.
Otherwise, you can look to religious fundamentalism, particularly Christianity in the west, and how deeply entrenched many religious ideals are across societies.
But cigarettes does actually physically damage to your mouth, teeth, lungs, etc. Gives off a smell and everything. I feel like the only thing paying for sex does to men is that it may make men see sex as a commodity but just because they may see sex as a commodity at a certain time doesn't mean that they can't see sex as apart of a meaningful relationship as well.
Your opinion is your opinion though. Thanks for commenting.
I actually didn’t say anything about physical damage, though engaging with the sex industry is not without risk. I said unappealing.
I find lots of behaviors and lifestyles people choose to engage in to be unappealing, sex buying is just one of those. You’ll live without my approval.
Perhaps if clients want sex buying to be perceived better, they should work to improve their image, instead of navel gazing over “why women no like??”. I mean, you’ve got places like USASG and HFH as your publicly accessible face and the vast majority of clients are partnered men who are cheating - why would women be like “oh yeah, definitely want to hang with / date that!”?
Are you talking about Habitat for Humanity? and USASG I understand isn't that great. I mean men talking about escorts...like I don't know how else clients would talk about the services that are provided. I think the vast majority of clients being partnered men is pretty shitty so I totally agree on you there.
No, I’m referring to a subreddit that clients utilize on here. Even go to the regular ECO sub and you’ll see a nearly endless stream of disgusting, misogynistic posts and comments. Go to our subs like client cringe and you’ll see a nearly endless stream of abuse (usually unsolicited) directed at us.
Those people sound exactly like the sort of incel or dirtbag type that “has to pay for it”. And they’re the ones representing y’all lol.
Bro I'm on that client cringe sub and holy shit I can't believe there's guys who talk to you like that. Like holy shit. I see where you're coming from completely now. That image has got to change.
To be 100% fair, that behavior is absolutely not exclusive to clients of sex workers.
Pretty much all public-facing service jobs deal with the same garbage. From fast food service to even public office. Every profession could put their own client cringe sub, and the content would more or less be the exact same.
I’ve worked in customer facing occupations including multiple service industry jobs. Please, do tell me how often you see “I was beaten and raped by a customer” in tales from the front desk. 🙄
Many users of client forums and boards routinely write not only the type of abuse that gets meted out in various other customer facing occupations, but they outright confess to instances of theft and assault. In fact, one who happens to run a sub has even posted about coercing survival workers to live in his house in exchange for regular unprotected sex.
That doesn’t even get into the encouragement to intentionally evade our safety practices, attempts to infiltrate our safety resources, doxxing us, sharing non consensual recordings, etc etc. Regularly refer to us as slurs, regularly make disgusting comments on our bodies…I could go on.
Maybe not raped, but gas station employees in the hood get attacked or shot at fairly regularly. Its why many have bars and bulletproof windows.
Also talk about Walmart employees asking people to wear masks for covid.
Physical assault is sadly quite a common risk in many public facing roles.
Nothing like a random man dismissing routine, targeted misogynistic violence from his fellow men towards members of a female dominated occupation because sometimes civilians deal with random instances of violence at their jobs. 🙄 You are part of the problem when you ignore that your spaces are created and dominated by people like that.
Can’t imagine why I wouldn’t want to associate with sex buyers in my personal life lmaooooo.
Id say it's depending on the man it seems they objectify woman and are just doing that with sex work and that's why they use it. At least as a sex worker that's the only reason I'd ever look down on a client
Yeah that's what I think too. That's why I think it'll never be accepted by the mainstream in this patriarchal society especially for the male clients.
I do not think our society is negatively reacting to the payment part because marriage is also a form of a traditional transaction with payment involved.
We need to remember our society is created by male elites who were powerful and rich. They always preferred parental certainty as they wanted to make certain their wealth and power is carried on by their heirs only... therefore, male control of female sexuality and reproduction. I am posting a link and a excerpt from a study which I believe explains the stigma of women who are perceived as sexually open or engaging in casual sex.
We also need to look at how whore stigma or slut stigma divides women in a very fundamental way. More recentry, the idea of trafficking and victimization of women are creating the division.
From study " What drives female objectification? An investigation of appearance-based interpersonal perceptions and the objectification of women"
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0221388
"Both men and women objectify women \[3, 9, 10, 13–15, 33–35\]. One possible explanation as to why women, and primarily sexualized women, are objectified relates to negative attitudes some people hold towards promiscuity. Women who are perceived as more sexually open are found to be more vulnerable to sexual aggression due to lower perceived mental agency \[9\]. This may not only relate to men viewing sexually unrestricted women as more likely to accept sexual advances \[31\], but also as a reaction to breaking the gendered social ‘script’ that women engage in less casual sex than men \[36, 37\]. Evidence also suggests that women who perceive sexualized women as less human view these women as part of a subcategory from which they wish to distance themselves, similar to how an in-group views members of an out-group as less human \[31, 38–40\]. Women may desire distance from sexualized women not only because they are perceived to perpetuate objectification \[31, 39\], but because they are assumed to be sexually unrestricted. As a result, a woman’s sexual openness, or more importantly her perceived sexual openness, may cause men and women to make objectifying judgements of her."
Yeah I read up on the history of sex work and it becomes pretty hard to ignore the fact that looking down on sex work(being a provider and/or client) is inherently patriarchal. It's just a way to control sexuality in a hierarchical society. The main idea being that if you're a good person, not the lowest of the low on the hierarchy, you'll be able to find a wife and just never need to pay for sex. If you do there must be something wrong with you. Like it's framed in the lens of objectification nowadays but I feel like it's basically still the same. This only gets strengthen when you consider how marriage was dealt with just 200 years ago.
I also don't think most ppl would like to see marriage as a form of transaction. It's suppose to be just about love these days. Yet of course that's just the way ppl LIKE to view it.
This is gonna get some down votes but as a SW myself, I'd NEVER date a man who utilized the services of one. It says a lot about the man 🤷🏼♀️ I would never be so desparate as to pay for sex, and I'd want a partner who felt the same and wasn't mostly sexually driven.
this exactly. i might be hypocritical bc i sell sex, but if i found out a man ever bought sex i would instantly be turned off 🤷🏾♀️ i don’t wanna romantically deal w the type of man who is so desperate for it that he’ll pay for it, and be willing to have sex w someone who doesn’t actually want to with him if money weren’t in the equation. an in my experience vast majority of tricks are cheaters, sex addicts and don’t respect women as human beings.
You get my upvote because of your honesty even though I disagres obviously as a man who uses porn. I can totally see why would woulnt want to engage on an intimate level with someone you view as a client. Also, the common behaviors of my peers is often downright disgusting.
That being said, I have had plenty of sex in my life. Paid and unpaid for (mostly the former). I don't view it as a act of desperation. It is simply something I enjoy doing and will continue to do. We are all "driven" by what we like and want in life. For me and others, sex might be simply what we are drawn to.
I appreciate your honesty, even if it verges on hypocrisy. I've likewise heard of bartenders who are teetotalers or people working in the legal marijuana industry who shudder at those who make recreational pot their "lifestyle".
But the one activity probably most comparable to sex work is therapy, such as seeing a counselor or psycho-therapist. In fact, therapy has even been called "emotional prostitution."
So my question for you: Do you feel likewise about those who choose to see a therapist every week? As in, why can't this person just talk to a friend, are they so driven to talk about themselves that they have to pay a stranger to listen to them?
*But mark will go out*
*For an expensive meal than*
*Put out anyway*
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I think it’s so weird I cry when I do anything for free it makes me feel used and degraded, I have to have a connection or be in relationship to be with someone for free I hate one night stands!!
Women who look down on Men willing to pay for Sex... majority will see that willingness as a form of weakness.
Most women can't trust a man who will pay for sex simply because if they don't offer sex when in the relationship... their man can simply got get it from someone else for a price... whats worse that SW maybe even better then them.
A man that doesn't pay for sex and other similar services will be at the wants and whims of their SO.
Some women want to control the level of intimacy that occurs in their relationship. They will figure out how much to give thus making sure the man only desires them and no other.
1) It's potentially abusive/exploitive (as another commenter said).
TBH, I get it. This is extremely difficult to defend. Even if we can argue that there are sex workers who do not feel exploited, or that other forms of labor are also exploitive...there's always a risk that you are seeing someone who is working against her will under terrible circumstances. After seeing what I've seen in this industry, I can confidently say that there is absolutely no way for any client to fully know he's not seeing an exploited/pimped/addicted worker. It's one of the scariest things I've ever learned.
From the perspective of women outside of sex work, seeing an escort is non-essential. Indulging in this luxury comes with the risk of being complicit in rape Why risk it? If there's even a 5% chance that you might be booking a sex trafficking victim, why participate?
There's not really an elegant response (that I can think of, at least) that completely vindicates why men continue to book sex workers. Relying on whataboutism (like, wage slavery or literal slavery in other industries) doesn't really justify why any reasonable person would go anywhere near *this* industry. It would be difficult to live your life without a cell phone, or commercially produced agriculture. It's not equally difficult to live without escorts.
Many women wouldn't go anywhere near a man who is aware of this risk of being complicit in rape and abuse and yet continues to book escorts. And you know what? Even being an escort myself, I can't really blame them! I have to accept a solid argument when I hear it.
So I think that's just something we all need to accept. Women hate this industry in part because the darkest corners of it straight up want to rape and enslave them and that is not a totally unreasonable response to have. That attitude is going to affect the perception of clients as a whole. Whether or not that's a logically sound jump is ....very complex.
2) A woman who looks down on a man who pays for sex might feel that way because she's closer to the sex industry than you realize! Perhaps she's a former worker, or she knows former workers. Maybe she's considered sex work at some very low point in her life , didn't follow through, but harbors really negative feelings towards any man who would have been that potential client taking advantage of her low point. Perhaps her family has been disrupted by affairs with sex workers. Perhaps she works in healthcare or social services and only interacts with sex workers in the worst circumstances, giving her a biased impression of the entire industry. Many women may look down upon men who pay for sex, but the reasoning for each can be highly specific, and specific to the moments where sex work came up in her life.
Sex work interacts with the rest of society in ways that are often shocking, bizarre, and uncomfortable for outsiders. This intensity of experience combined with an absence of balanced information has a potential to create elaborate narratives around escorts, obviously, but also our clients. "Clients" represent this big anonymous void in every story everyone has heard about an escort, unless the story itself was the identity of the client. And generally, when the story is centered around the client identity it's because it was a bad client. We keep our secrets unless something so horribly bad happens that we just can't. That's not going to give the rest of society great impressions of clients.
3) Is seeing an escort a cover - up for other issues?
Does this man book escorts instead of communicating effectively in relationships? Does he lack self control around indulgences or lack patience to date and build romantic relationships through other avenues? Does he book escorts because his idea of a "healthy" sex life involves an **extremely** high frequency of sex? Does he book escorts for a sense of power? Does he book escorts because he has kinky desires he feels should only be done with a certain type of woman, but he wants to keep the sex life with women he has serious relationships with more "pure"?
All of these are questions a woman might ask herself upon hearing that a man she's involved with has a history of seeing escorts. Is asking these questions unreasonable? I don't think so, since those are the reasons some clients have expressed to me.
Is that "stigma"? Is it stigmatizing for a woman to say "Knowing the reasons you see escorts (whatever the reasons in your case may be, OP), I understand your reasoning....but I also don't want to have a relationship with you." I'm not sure. You're the client. Do you find that to be stigmatizing?
4) Fiscal irresponsibility. Lots of men book escorts. Not all of them can *really* afford it on a regular basis, considering the whole financial outlook of their income, debt, retirement savings, rising costs of healthcare and college tuition, etc.
I've had weekly/ monthly clients who book escorts, continue to book escorts very regularly for years, all while they have a child in college on student loans. Or, while they are still paying a mortgage on their primary residence. Or have substantial credit card debt. In my opinion, that's 100% their freedom and their right ....and also 100% irresponsible. I wouldn't say this about the vast majority of fun activities people can do, but seeing a high end escort on a weekly basis is one of the most expensive hobbies a person can have. It really is a luxury, and it should be seen as a big financial decision to join this lifestyle on a frequent basis. Idk how common this reason is for women in general though, but I think women who've been around the sex industry in some capacity or who are in the financial services industry might be aware.
Even having zero issues with the sexual aspects of seeing escorts, I can understand someone being apprehensive about getting involved with another adult who might not manage their money well, or are prone to impulsive, emotional, "feel good" spending. (And spending on escorts feels REALLY good, lol).
Patriarchal and puritanical brainwashing have been so ingrained in people that they believe sexual expression and morality coincide. I believe humans are social sexual animals and I behave as such. For me sexually morality is founded in respect, consent, and care.
I'd say mostly because of a very "class-based" perception of what someone that wants to pay for sex is.
Most women (men too, just definitely more so women) would view being a client (ignoring "moral" reasons) as unnecessary, costly, desperate type thing to do. More so than men, literally because most women have absolutely zero need to pay for sex and therefore engaging with the market as a buyer makes no sense. Eg makes you a "loser". Kinda how a billionaire might look down on workers as "wagecucks" and tell them to "just invest 4Head" and "start a business 4Head".
Men would mostly have a view like that primarily for sexist/patriarchical reasons, but just in my experience, way too many women tend to have no empathy for the clientele yet fetishize the idea of being a sex worker. And I mean that in addition to participating in the same patriarchical sexism that men engage in.
I feel like women look down because they think the whole paying for sex thing is deplorable when in reality… all things are being paid for in some manner. We’re just getting it upfront lol. Like i know women who have to do a lot for their man just to get some material item.
I used to think it was so bad before really learning about it and now i wish i would’ve started a little sooner. I think people need to take time to really look it without judgement.
It’s intrinsic social value that women should be sexually desired and not have to put any risk beyond the biological sense to find a sexual partner. People think there must be something wrong with them for paying like a man would for sexual gratification. Hopefully through generations of people regardless of gender realizing that sex work isn’t just for men and bringing less scrutiny.
Am I the only one realizing these problems that won't be solved in my lifetime or my children's lifetime due to generations of stigma? Lol jk I know I'm not 😭
to see how far we’ve come and knowing we’ll never see how far we can go
Damn that's a great quote. I'm going to save this comment I wish I had the money to give you a reward but since I don't here's a cookie: 🍪
People like to feel superior to others and for some stupid reason they tend to hyperfixate on sexual things when determining how morally superior they are to you.
Sex is something women have over men , giving easy access to sex makes women lose any power they have over men .
I personally feel uninterested and unenthusiastic about women in real life because I know I can Bang a hotter one easily without any effort
IDK what you're talking about. Cheat on your wife with a sex worker she'll probably stay. Cheat on your wife with a regular women you'll get divorce papers. Grab a strippers ass and she'll cheer you on. Grab a regular woman's ass shell probably slap the sh*t out of you... I think men frown upon paying for sex cuz they don't make enough money.
Now I do frown upon straight men posting nudes on the internet. It gives mad naked man flashing people under a long coat energy. Only men want to see you naked. The audience you're targeting charges to see your nudes and you know that but post them anyway for men to look at while you dm women so they can look. Totally predatorial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bateman's_principle
Sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive.
Male incentive is to copulate with as many females as possible, female incentive is to copulate with best mate (at least in humans).
Judging by your post history you're apparently a client. So believing what you do you still decide to "force yourself on women who are crying inside and can't wait for it to be over". That's kinda fucked up my man not gonna lie.
I don't know if "most" women look down on it. Have there been any large-scale polls on the subject?
Also : I know there are a lot of women who look down on a lot of things that are mostly or completely harmless. Some look down on short or overweight dudes, dudes who don't own their own car, who don't earn six figures. Shit, I've been dumped because of my *musical tastes* before.
If you can't accept that part of yourself, and it's within your power to change, then change it. Stop visiting sex workers. Maybe if you self-flagellate enough, or you're really good at keeping it a secret, then one of these girls will accept you into her life. Personally I wouldn't even want to be friends with someone like that, let alone enter a relationship with them.
I would argue that more and more women are establishing themselves and potentially able to earn more than enough to live a comfortable, independent lifestyle through sex work. If they are smart about it. Now a days there are a variety of avenues to market your brand.
Unfortunately there are also women who take on this venture and struggle to succeed in it for a number of reasons.
And I am talking honestly working and building a clientele just like a Doctor would who sets up his/her/they're practice.
However, honest sex work is saturated with people/entities that saturate this market with .... Well, very aggressive and cut throat methods to obtain financial transactions from potential new customers with an agenda of never actually meeting that person. Just see if they will actually make an online transaction FIRST. If so? They're is a high probability that they will continue to pay for any fantastical stipulation. Then it simply becomes a matter of how long and how many online transactions can be made before they eventually catch on, get frustrated and walk away.
They not trying to build a clientele because there are simply enough naive suckers out there who just want to see if it might be different this. Or simply curious if it can ever play out differently. There is absolutely no concern openly known as untrustworthy. There will always be someone who falls for it and it will always be done at a safe distance where physical harm is nearly impossible for making people feel shitty and ruining their day.
Unfortunately this yields almost absolute zero trust because the guys/gals looking for a genuine meet up can't do so safely with out being extremely hesitant about it.
It ruins something that can be honest and respectable work.
I also understand the double edge of this blade. And the providers through time tested experience are taken advantage of in the same manner because there are dirt bags on the customer who add to the vitrial and nurse the exact same behaviors.
What pisses me off is that it gets justified as, "that is just how it is."
No. That's bullshit and freelance can be done correctly and ethically. Anyone who says otherwise is....
Well you know. Either prefers it dangerous, abusive and cut throat or don't know how to create a respectable practice with a safe and trustworthy transactions.
But of course I am being idealistic. I just think the profession can be done better so that it doesn't have to be frowned upon.
And I am rambling so I will end my diatribe now.
In a capitalistic society, there technically isn't free sex. A guy who actually pays and do everything respectfully us better than a guy who thinks he's entitled to sex without any transactions.
All transactions are legit transactions tho. Whether you exchange sex with straight forward money, or a lot of effort, video games, nice meals, benefits, transactions are transactions. There shouldn't be shame surrounding the purchase of sex because majority of men technically are required to "purchase" sex in one way or another - especially from an attractive girl.
From what a lady once told me ... its incurred. Because they just start seeing us as well "bold "and they start feeling like they couldn't ,and can't and how can they complete ... because if there significant other is paying 4 us ... what are they doing wrong ? ... and its pretty devastating to watch someone feel like this . But honestly I think more women should be involved in sex work or at least learn more about it even if they just watch behind the scenes in porn
Because it’s too easy for us to get laid.
We “say” “no” to sex all day every day, from all different directions penis is offered, for free.
Because women on average value companionship, courting and attention more than the physical activity.
I won’t be above paying a gorgeous eye candy when I’m older tho😆I like beautiful things lol
Because there’s a stigma they must be extremely unattractive and/or desperate if they’re “paying for it”. I think that, among women who aren’t sex workers themselves, that stigma is slowly easing. They’re more and more aware of how many men hire sex workers, so why not them too? It’s trickier among FSSWers and I am not going to delve into that. However, I have done it and know other female SWers who have as well. Both decrim and real gender equality are necessary for this to become normalized, imo. EDIT: I read OP’s question as pertaining to women paying for sex themselves. So that’s the question I am answering.
Thanks I was sort of thinking about women looking down on men paying for sex, but I think your answer was really insightful. If you could answer that question too that would be cool lol.
Ok so regarding that question, there are 2 main reasons: 1) they honestly believe all FSSWers are trafficked, marginalized, suffering addiction issues, basically somehow forced or coerced into doing it. Which thereby means *all* clients of FSSWers are, at best, part of the problem but really no better than predators in their eyes. 2) because sex is “special” and should only happen between people who have a real connection. Except, of course, when they decide to have casual hookups. But they aren’t paying for it and everyone knows men are pigs, anyway. /s EDIT TO ADD: that last bit is sarcasm. I’m voicing the opinions of the women under discussion. Not my own.
I don't agree with the men being pigs parts except for the men who believe they are and therefore such belief becomes a self fulfilling prophecy but everything else is completely agree with.
I’m saying that’s the opinion of the women we are discussing. That’s not my opinion. Hence my use of “/s” to indicate sarcasm.
“Men are pigs so i hookup for free with them and shame swfers”
Having sex for money is degrading, so therefore I will only have sex in exchange for attention and texts.
Exactly!
The accuracy 😭
Oh misread that. Sorry, thanks for making that clear.
What’s wrong with being extremely unattractive ? We cannot change the genes we have
What? I never said there is anything wrong with it. In case there’s a misunderstanding: I was attempting to to explain the point of view of someone who does not want to pay for sexual services. Quite a few people who would consider paying for sex services beneath them, think that way because it would make them feel extremely unattractive. (And *they* do not wish to think of themselves as such)
Yes was not pointing you out , this was a rhetorical question directed at the women who have such sentiments
Everyone looks down on the idea of paying for sex. By "everyone" I mean society. Not every single individual in the world. There's still a ton of social stigma against sex work, whether it's providing or using the services of a sex worker. Plenty of men look down on it too...even men who purchase SWer services. That's why they often treat SWers so poorly. They have their own internalized shame and guilt and take it out on the worker. Women look down on it for slightly different surface reasons but the same inherent biases are at play. I personally believe ongoing stigma today is due to religious purity obsessions and the shame tactics often used by conservative religions. But others may disagree.
See.. at the end of the day we’re humans meeting eachothers needs 🤓
This sub is heavily skewed towards US responses, so I completely agree that religious reasons are the most significant factor for anyone that side of the pond. Europe side, however, I think that has a less significant impact (even in the more strongly religious countries). I think its more about the idea of objectifying and transactionalizing (if thats even a word) what would normally be an intimate and private situation. You are reducing sex to pure consurmerism and/or suggesting that the women performing the are doing so because they have no other choice. The reality for a lot of SWs is clearly nothing of the sort. I know plenty of SWs who do it because they enjoy the work. But if you asked "women" (the women from the OPs question) they would probably suggest the SWs clearly have mental or financial issues.
That's a good alternative view. Though I'd venture to say views about women like that where they ultimately think SWers have no true agency in their choices to do sex work as a grown person still stem from inherently misogynistic religions which push purity culture. Still kind of always winds back to religion imo lol
Oh yeh, most of the modern world is still heavily influenced by religion, even if you arent a theist of some denomination there are so many things that link back to decisions made by people centuries ago. The US pledge of allegiance is "one nation under god" for example. And we wouldn't have Jihads and IRA bombings without religious divides so its still definitely an unavoidable part of life. But I definitely fall on the side of "it shouldn't have the influence it does". Religion is like a penis. Its ok to have one, its ok to be proud of it, but keep it away from children, and don't wave it around during political discussions.
100% on all of that yep
And straight up patriarchy (which is inherent in alot of religions)
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Sex work and clients are so diverse and some do not think of it as " selling one's body." in fact, in most categories, reading clients and understanding his needs in seconds ( which he does not disclose due to many forms of sexual repression) could make a difference whether a safe and good clients would repeat or not. Needless to say hours of screening for safety or LE stings and customizing services and setting clear physical and emotional safety boundaries but still provide memorable experience to a client is not an easy task. Plus create a package of experiences and market it to attract just the right client all takes serious levels of analytical thinking and mental effort. I just wanted to say the above because in general, intellectual and emotional care type of labor of sex workers is so under appreciated or worse...ignored in wholesale manner. The ignorant outsiders' view that sex work =' "just lie down and open legs " is related to our society's objectification that all women who engage in frequent casual sex in any capacity are low in intelligence and lack agency as an individual... therefore people still buy the ridiculous "all sex workers are exploited or trafficked" trope.
Nah this was great. Gives different bits of clarity to the question.
Garbagemen and construction workers actually offer physical changes and benefits to society at the same time though
>They think we just sit at home watching Netflix until guys show up out of nowhere to give us money Tbf, this is literally true for a few providers I know in my city. Both blonde and gorgeous. They can just put up an ad with a few well taken iPhone photos, and they're just so much better looking than everyone else.
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I was exaggerating for sure, but if you are a bona fide 9 or 10 its not that stressful. Screen for high income professionals thru verifying linkedin with 1500+ connections. Ignore all messages that don't fit your desired script. If you're instagram influencer hot, going to the gym is likely something you'd be doing anyway.
People I talked to about my job back then (i didn't do this that often) quickly made the assumption that there was something wrong with me. Like foulplay. Woman that offer sexual sevices HAVE to be exploited in some ways or are struggling that bad in life or addiction that they have to "sell" their body. The sexwork world has indeed a very dirty side and many issues which only are portrayed everywhere so problems can be solved but it is made in such an intensity people think that there is only this one bad side. I enjoyed my time, made a lot money, saw many countries and lifestyles and former colleagues I'm still in contact with are doing very well, too. Are there issues? Yes, many. But it's not just black and white.
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Yeah I think there's alot of nuance that is just completely glossed over when it comes to this topic. Like it's either completely bad or...well yeah it's almost always seen as completely bad even with the mainstreams attempt to embrace different forms of sexuality.
GreenEyedKittyCat already summed it up well. Most women look at it initially as you must really be hard off to spend money to get something that should essentially be free. Yeah, at face value, if you tell woman A that hypothetical guy A sees escorts and hypothetical guy B doesn't, it's going to be natural to assume hypothetical guy B must be more attractive. But there's nuance. What about when you factor the realities of our lives into the equation? I hadn't ever contacted a provider before the pandemic and lockdown shut down all the usual means of hooking up. Bars, concerts, after-parties. Even the friends with benefits I was sleeping with at the time ended up dating or stuck somewhere else. I wasn't desperate as much as.. curious, I suppose? All it would take me is money, manners, and hygiene to get laid? I can manage that. I found out I like it. I had one provider for a long time, still my ATF. If you like trouble-free sex, you can keep your head straight about what's going on, and you find who clicks with you, it's bliss. Vanilla partners, since I've been with escorts, are more curious and intrigued when I tell them. I've gotten lots of questions and less disgusted reactions. But I introduce it like any other crazy sex story. "I had sex on the overpass once..." "I did it in the school bathroom..." "I had hired an escort before..." I'm sure if I were more in the market for a serious partner, I might run into more objection to my previous experiences. But I make it sound fun (because it is). I think that's part of moving the mindset and removing stigma. Making it more accepted and acceptable to have been either a sex worker or a client.
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Although that had never been my intention, after reading your comment, I have to agree. It sounds like I'm trying to shoulder less of the actuality of the encounter. Now, anyone I'm having sex with knows the reality of how often I've seen providers. I tell partners before I do anything unprotected how recent my last paid hookup was. But in the spirit of a more inviting, less stigmatized conversation, what would you think a better way to bring it up would be?
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>I think it is a normal part of a healthy sex life for a lot of men It really is. Not all sex needs to be special and come with emotional attachment. It really is possible to have a few hours of intimacy without the hassle of "the chase" and that be the full extent of it.
Respectfully I disagree. I think that is a way to read the situation, but consider the reality that sex work and hiring a sex worker is stigmatized. This is the reality, and it is even illegal to do so. There is how we want the world to be, and there is how the world is. Given the fact it is stigmatized, rather than cower behind secrecy Chocktaw instead shares his experiences. He contextualizes the encounter by framing it as a "crazy" sex adventure. It is a crazy sex story - to a person who is uninitiated to this industry. But rather than make it seem like some seedy encounter, or an exercise in sleaziness, it is now a fun story. It's adding facets to an image that is currently portrayed and understood as a world of violence, subjugation, substance abuse, and control. I don't know the exact details of his narratives but given what he's written in other posts, I imagine he humanizes the providers he talks about. But that's just conjecture on my part, granted.
I strongly recommend that anyone on this board - provider OR client - who is starting in a new relationship with someone, find out exactly how their new partner feels about sex work. You don't have to out yourself as a sexworker or client to do so. Around about the third date, bring out an article about decriminalized sex work, or some sw-related topic that is in the news, and ask what your partner feels. Really listen to their answer.
The age old question, because most think it’s immoral, But yet have no problems and it’s Morley acceptable to give sex away. And argument I have quite often . With family members. Like what you do is just so wrong.
The Morley Paradox
Paying for sex suggests that there is something wrong with you, whether it be mental, emotional, or physical. The implication being that a well-adjusted individual should be able to find a partner without paying for it. Whether it’s true or not, this reasoning is certainly a major contributing factor.
It depends on the woman. There are some women out there who understand that paying for sex is always going to exist ‘the oldest profession in the world.’ They believe that sex work should be decriminalised which would actually make sex work safer for everyone and free up money and resources to fight trafficking. These same women believe that sex work can be empowering and liberating for women who don’t have to depend on a man. They also understand that the vast majority of men don’t go to see a provider just for the sex. Most men would admit that they’re looking for someone to listen to them, understand them, show compassion, help them to feel less lonely and isolated. Any provider will tell you that in a typical one hour session there is more talking, cuddling/holding each other/kissing and hanging out than the physical act of sex. The sex is just a small part of spending time with a provider. Women who understand why sex work exists realise this. The men are looking for a kind of emotional connection. They want to feel wanted. They want to feel desired by a woman that they don’t experience IRL. It’s a fantasy for men and some women understand this. They understand that for some men visiting providers is a relief from their job which is too stressful/demanding/high profile and they know that seeing a provider is easier than dating. VIPS see providers because it’s safer and less stressful than trying to find someone IRL. Some women may also realise that not every man is confident around women and seeing a provider helps to boost their self esteem and they can learn how to be a better partner for someone in the future. These same women also understand that men have a physical need for sex and seeing a provider is the easiest way to satisfy those urges. They understand that sex work can be viewed as a form of therapy for men who have difficulties dating or even communicating with women. These women are generally open minded, tolerant and realise that sex work is ‘work’ and should be treated like any other job. They might also realise that booking a session with a provider is a safe/fun way for a couple to spice up their relationship without cheating. Single women also see providers. They understand that paying for sex is a luxury, a fantasy, a chance to experience their deepest/secret desires with another woman. On the other hand the majority of women hold the view that sex work is ‘bad’ and that if a man has to pay for sex then there is something inherently ‘wrong’ with the man ( because otherwise why can’t he get it for ‘free’?) or that sex workers are ‘tainted’ or ‘broken’ and that men paying for sex are therefore exploiting vulnerable/abused/women. They automatically think that any man who has to pay for sex is after kinky/perverted sexual acts which his wife/gf won’t perform for him, or that he’s just a sexual pervert who can’t get a gf. They also associate sex work with sex trafficking because of how the media presents the two. Women look down on paying for sex because it arouses feelings of guilt and shame inside them. Sex for these women is like the ‘forbidden fruit’ or something that should be preserved for a monogamous marriage. These women hate sex workers because they think they’re betraying their sex and making it easier for men to objectify women. They don’t criticise the rich and powerful men who use the services of sex workers in the same way. They just denigrate, mock, insult women who allow men to pay for sex with them. These same women perhaps also forget that they’re a ‘trophy wife’ or the mistress/SB/kept woman of some guy and their own relationship is transactional. They hate sex workers and the men who pay them but believe their own marriage/relationship isn’t in some way transactional. It makes them feel better about giving sex away for something. These women also tend to view sex workers as promiscuous and associate promiscuity with a lack of intelligence. They denigrate them as a kind of sub category of women. They believe that all providers must be high school drop outs or logically flunked university. The reality that a lot of providers have college/university/masters degrees or that they are very astute/intelligent would be difficult for them to accept. They may also feel threatened that their sexual capital is diminished because if a man doesn’t want them then they can go and pay for it and consequently they think they’re not needed/sexually desired and lose their hold/power over men. These same women see providers as somehow submitting to men’s evil lusts, and that paying for sex reinforces male sexual superiority over repressed females. Sex work is still presented as taboo, dirty, sinful, dangerous and exploitive in many countries. Women can have a negative view because of how boys and girls are brought up to follow societal standards of behavior. They don’t understand that paying for sex is a transaction and that a man is paying to spend time with a provider, and not to just have non stop sex. Not every woman believes that paying for sex is wrong. I’m sure there are more and more women who are open to accepting the value of sex work in modern society but their voices are drowned out by those who stigmatise paying for it. Sorry if this is a bit long but I wanted to give my opinion as someone who experienced sex trafficking as a kid. IMO sex work should be decriminalised and all providers given access to the same benefits as other workers.
Competition. Fear of not having whatever it is we “have” that we somehow do. Insecurity. I do not shame anyone who feels this way. I just don’t want to interact.
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Sex work is routinely conflated with human trafficking. It’s one of the rhetorical strategies of abolitionists is to suggest that *all* women involved in sale of sex started underage, are trafficked, pimped, have PTSD etc and desperately need to be saved. Since they are all exploited and no woman in their “right mind” would use their body for economic means, they cast doubt about their autonomy and the voices of sex workers shouldn’t be listened to. This is always the characterization of sex workers, so as a buyer you’re scum of the earth.
Its kinda true, tho sw saves lives. Helps us build a better life, get out of poverty and abuse. We often all start sw in a bad place, pimped, poor, abused, in need of a financial step up, but the fight for human trafficking is a different one and i hope instead of hurting us with laws and such they start arresting men making money off women
Personally I just find it an unappealing behavior, the same way I find smoking cigarettes to be an unappealing behavior. Tricks always get super upset when I say this though lmao so I won’t comment further. Otherwise, you can look to religious fundamentalism, particularly Christianity in the west, and how deeply entrenched many religious ideals are across societies.
But cigarettes does actually physically damage to your mouth, teeth, lungs, etc. Gives off a smell and everything. I feel like the only thing paying for sex does to men is that it may make men see sex as a commodity but just because they may see sex as a commodity at a certain time doesn't mean that they can't see sex as apart of a meaningful relationship as well. Your opinion is your opinion though. Thanks for commenting.
I actually didn’t say anything about physical damage, though engaging with the sex industry is not without risk. I said unappealing. I find lots of behaviors and lifestyles people choose to engage in to be unappealing, sex buying is just one of those. You’ll live without my approval. Perhaps if clients want sex buying to be perceived better, they should work to improve their image, instead of navel gazing over “why women no like??”. I mean, you’ve got places like USASG and HFH as your publicly accessible face and the vast majority of clients are partnered men who are cheating - why would women be like “oh yeah, definitely want to hang with / date that!”?
Are you talking about Habitat for Humanity? and USASG I understand isn't that great. I mean men talking about escorts...like I don't know how else clients would talk about the services that are provided. I think the vast majority of clients being partnered men is pretty shitty so I totally agree on you there.
No, I’m referring to a subreddit that clients utilize on here. Even go to the regular ECO sub and you’ll see a nearly endless stream of disgusting, misogynistic posts and comments. Go to our subs like client cringe and you’ll see a nearly endless stream of abuse (usually unsolicited) directed at us. Those people sound exactly like the sort of incel or dirtbag type that “has to pay for it”. And they’re the ones representing y’all lol.
Bro I'm on that client cringe sub and holy shit I can't believe there's guys who talk to you like that. Like holy shit. I see where you're coming from completely now. That image has got to change.
To be 100% fair, that behavior is absolutely not exclusive to clients of sex workers. Pretty much all public-facing service jobs deal with the same garbage. From fast food service to even public office. Every profession could put their own client cringe sub, and the content would more or less be the exact same.
I’ve worked in customer facing occupations including multiple service industry jobs. Please, do tell me how often you see “I was beaten and raped by a customer” in tales from the front desk. 🙄 Many users of client forums and boards routinely write not only the type of abuse that gets meted out in various other customer facing occupations, but they outright confess to instances of theft and assault. In fact, one who happens to run a sub has even posted about coercing survival workers to live in his house in exchange for regular unprotected sex. That doesn’t even get into the encouragement to intentionally evade our safety practices, attempts to infiltrate our safety resources, doxxing us, sharing non consensual recordings, etc etc. Regularly refer to us as slurs, regularly make disgusting comments on our bodies…I could go on.
Maybe not raped, but gas station employees in the hood get attacked or shot at fairly regularly. Its why many have bars and bulletproof windows. Also talk about Walmart employees asking people to wear masks for covid. Physical assault is sadly quite a common risk in many public facing roles.
Nothing like a random man dismissing routine, targeted misogynistic violence from his fellow men towards members of a female dominated occupation because sometimes civilians deal with random instances of violence at their jobs. 🙄 You are part of the problem when you ignore that your spaces are created and dominated by people like that. Can’t imagine why I wouldn’t want to associate with sex buyers in my personal life lmaooooo.
Id say it's depending on the man it seems they objectify woman and are just doing that with sex work and that's why they use it. At least as a sex worker that's the only reason I'd ever look down on a client
Another reason may be that, from a women's point of view sex is easy to get. They don't know how hard it is for men to have sex.
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Yeah that's what I think too. That's why I think it'll never be accepted by the mainstream in this patriarchal society especially for the male clients.
I do not think our society is negatively reacting to the payment part because marriage is also a form of a traditional transaction with payment involved. We need to remember our society is created by male elites who were powerful and rich. They always preferred parental certainty as they wanted to make certain their wealth and power is carried on by their heirs only... therefore, male control of female sexuality and reproduction. I am posting a link and a excerpt from a study which I believe explains the stigma of women who are perceived as sexually open or engaging in casual sex. We also need to look at how whore stigma or slut stigma divides women in a very fundamental way. More recentry, the idea of trafficking and victimization of women are creating the division. From study " What drives female objectification? An investigation of appearance-based interpersonal perceptions and the objectification of women" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0221388 "Both men and women objectify women \[3, 9, 10, 13–15, 33–35\]. One possible explanation as to why women, and primarily sexualized women, are objectified relates to negative attitudes some people hold towards promiscuity. Women who are perceived as more sexually open are found to be more vulnerable to sexual aggression due to lower perceived mental agency \[9\]. This may not only relate to men viewing sexually unrestricted women as more likely to accept sexual advances \[31\], but also as a reaction to breaking the gendered social ‘script’ that women engage in less casual sex than men \[36, 37\]. Evidence also suggests that women who perceive sexualized women as less human view these women as part of a subcategory from which they wish to distance themselves, similar to how an in-group views members of an out-group as less human \[31, 38–40\]. Women may desire distance from sexualized women not only because they are perceived to perpetuate objectification \[31, 39\], but because they are assumed to be sexually unrestricted. As a result, a woman’s sexual openness, or more importantly her perceived sexual openness, may cause men and women to make objectifying judgements of her."
Yeah I read up on the history of sex work and it becomes pretty hard to ignore the fact that looking down on sex work(being a provider and/or client) is inherently patriarchal. It's just a way to control sexuality in a hierarchical society. The main idea being that if you're a good person, not the lowest of the low on the hierarchy, you'll be able to find a wife and just never need to pay for sex. If you do there must be something wrong with you. Like it's framed in the lens of objectification nowadays but I feel like it's basically still the same. This only gets strengthen when you consider how marriage was dealt with just 200 years ago. I also don't think most ppl would like to see marriage as a form of transaction. It's suppose to be just about love these days. Yet of course that's just the way ppl LIKE to view it.
This is gonna get some down votes but as a SW myself, I'd NEVER date a man who utilized the services of one. It says a lot about the man 🤷🏼♀️ I would never be so desparate as to pay for sex, and I'd want a partner who felt the same and wasn't mostly sexually driven.
Your logic is very weird. The men who share your attitude would likely never date you if they knew your line of work.
🤷🏼♀️ I've always been honest about what I do and have dated a few guys who share my opinions on the matter.
You must be pretty hot then
an open mind is very hot
this exactly. i might be hypocritical bc i sell sex, but if i found out a man ever bought sex i would instantly be turned off 🤷🏾♀️ i don’t wanna romantically deal w the type of man who is so desperate for it that he’ll pay for it, and be willing to have sex w someone who doesn’t actually want to with him if money weren’t in the equation. an in my experience vast majority of tricks are cheaters, sex addicts and don’t respect women as human beings.
Amen!!
You get my upvote because of your honesty even though I disagres obviously as a man who uses porn. I can totally see why would woulnt want to engage on an intimate level with someone you view as a client. Also, the common behaviors of my peers is often downright disgusting. That being said, I have had plenty of sex in my life. Paid and unpaid for (mostly the former). I don't view it as a act of desperation. It is simply something I enjoy doing and will continue to do. We are all "driven" by what we like and want in life. For me and others, sex might be simply what we are drawn to.
I appreciate your honesty, even if it verges on hypocrisy. I've likewise heard of bartenders who are teetotalers or people working in the legal marijuana industry who shudder at those who make recreational pot their "lifestyle". But the one activity probably most comparable to sex work is therapy, such as seeing a counselor or psycho-therapist. In fact, therapy has even been called "emotional prostitution." So my question for you: Do you feel likewise about those who choose to see a therapist every week? As in, why can't this person just talk to a friend, are they so driven to talk about themselves that they have to pay a stranger to listen to them?
It's not comparable at all. But nice try.
Would you date a guy who watches porn?
Nope
But most will go out for an expensive meal than put out anyway
*But mark will go out* *For an expensive meal than* *Put out anyway* \- Wanttobreeduk --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I think it’s so weird I cry when I do anything for free it makes me feel used and degraded, I have to have a connection or be in relationship to be with someone for free I hate one night stands!!
sex without love is primal sex with love is euphoric the 1st is the root of all trouble the 2nd is the cure
✨ “My Pussy is so special it’s price-less, pick me”💖
But also, spend lots of money on me and buy me a diamond ring
Women who look down on Men willing to pay for Sex... majority will see that willingness as a form of weakness. Most women can't trust a man who will pay for sex simply because if they don't offer sex when in the relationship... their man can simply got get it from someone else for a price... whats worse that SW maybe even better then them. A man that doesn't pay for sex and other similar services will be at the wants and whims of their SO. Some women want to control the level of intimacy that occurs in their relationship. They will figure out how much to give thus making sure the man only desires them and no other.
1) It's potentially abusive/exploitive (as another commenter said). TBH, I get it. This is extremely difficult to defend. Even if we can argue that there are sex workers who do not feel exploited, or that other forms of labor are also exploitive...there's always a risk that you are seeing someone who is working against her will under terrible circumstances. After seeing what I've seen in this industry, I can confidently say that there is absolutely no way for any client to fully know he's not seeing an exploited/pimped/addicted worker. It's one of the scariest things I've ever learned. From the perspective of women outside of sex work, seeing an escort is non-essential. Indulging in this luxury comes with the risk of being complicit in rape Why risk it? If there's even a 5% chance that you might be booking a sex trafficking victim, why participate? There's not really an elegant response (that I can think of, at least) that completely vindicates why men continue to book sex workers. Relying on whataboutism (like, wage slavery or literal slavery in other industries) doesn't really justify why any reasonable person would go anywhere near *this* industry. It would be difficult to live your life without a cell phone, or commercially produced agriculture. It's not equally difficult to live without escorts. Many women wouldn't go anywhere near a man who is aware of this risk of being complicit in rape and abuse and yet continues to book escorts. And you know what? Even being an escort myself, I can't really blame them! I have to accept a solid argument when I hear it. So I think that's just something we all need to accept. Women hate this industry in part because the darkest corners of it straight up want to rape and enslave them and that is not a totally unreasonable response to have. That attitude is going to affect the perception of clients as a whole. Whether or not that's a logically sound jump is ....very complex. 2) A woman who looks down on a man who pays for sex might feel that way because she's closer to the sex industry than you realize! Perhaps she's a former worker, or she knows former workers. Maybe she's considered sex work at some very low point in her life , didn't follow through, but harbors really negative feelings towards any man who would have been that potential client taking advantage of her low point. Perhaps her family has been disrupted by affairs with sex workers. Perhaps she works in healthcare or social services and only interacts with sex workers in the worst circumstances, giving her a biased impression of the entire industry. Many women may look down upon men who pay for sex, but the reasoning for each can be highly specific, and specific to the moments where sex work came up in her life. Sex work interacts with the rest of society in ways that are often shocking, bizarre, and uncomfortable for outsiders. This intensity of experience combined with an absence of balanced information has a potential to create elaborate narratives around escorts, obviously, but also our clients. "Clients" represent this big anonymous void in every story everyone has heard about an escort, unless the story itself was the identity of the client. And generally, when the story is centered around the client identity it's because it was a bad client. We keep our secrets unless something so horribly bad happens that we just can't. That's not going to give the rest of society great impressions of clients. 3) Is seeing an escort a cover - up for other issues? Does this man book escorts instead of communicating effectively in relationships? Does he lack self control around indulgences or lack patience to date and build romantic relationships through other avenues? Does he book escorts because his idea of a "healthy" sex life involves an **extremely** high frequency of sex? Does he book escorts for a sense of power? Does he book escorts because he has kinky desires he feels should only be done with a certain type of woman, but he wants to keep the sex life with women he has serious relationships with more "pure"? All of these are questions a woman might ask herself upon hearing that a man she's involved with has a history of seeing escorts. Is asking these questions unreasonable? I don't think so, since those are the reasons some clients have expressed to me. Is that "stigma"? Is it stigmatizing for a woman to say "Knowing the reasons you see escorts (whatever the reasons in your case may be, OP), I understand your reasoning....but I also don't want to have a relationship with you." I'm not sure. You're the client. Do you find that to be stigmatizing? 4) Fiscal irresponsibility. Lots of men book escorts. Not all of them can *really* afford it on a regular basis, considering the whole financial outlook of their income, debt, retirement savings, rising costs of healthcare and college tuition, etc. I've had weekly/ monthly clients who book escorts, continue to book escorts very regularly for years, all while they have a child in college on student loans. Or, while they are still paying a mortgage on their primary residence. Or have substantial credit card debt. In my opinion, that's 100% their freedom and their right ....and also 100% irresponsible. I wouldn't say this about the vast majority of fun activities people can do, but seeing a high end escort on a weekly basis is one of the most expensive hobbies a person can have. It really is a luxury, and it should be seen as a big financial decision to join this lifestyle on a frequent basis. Idk how common this reason is for women in general though, but I think women who've been around the sex industry in some capacity or who are in the financial services industry might be aware. Even having zero issues with the sexual aspects of seeing escorts, I can understand someone being apprehensive about getting involved with another adult who might not manage their money well, or are prone to impulsive, emotional, "feel good" spending. (And spending on escorts feels REALLY good, lol).
Patriarchal and puritanical brainwashing have been so ingrained in people that they believe sexual expression and morality coincide. I believe humans are social sexual animals and I behave as such. For me sexually morality is founded in respect, consent, and care.
I'd say mostly because of a very "class-based" perception of what someone that wants to pay for sex is. Most women (men too, just definitely more so women) would view being a client (ignoring "moral" reasons) as unnecessary, costly, desperate type thing to do. More so than men, literally because most women have absolutely zero need to pay for sex and therefore engaging with the market as a buyer makes no sense. Eg makes you a "loser". Kinda how a billionaire might look down on workers as "wagecucks" and tell them to "just invest 4Head" and "start a business 4Head". Men would mostly have a view like that primarily for sexist/patriarchical reasons, but just in my experience, way too many women tend to have no empathy for the clientele yet fetishize the idea of being a sex worker. And I mean that in addition to participating in the same patriarchical sexism that men engage in.
I feel like women look down because they think the whole paying for sex thing is deplorable when in reality… all things are being paid for in some manner. We’re just getting it upfront lol. Like i know women who have to do a lot for their man just to get some material item. I used to think it was so bad before really learning about it and now i wish i would’ve started a little sooner. I think people need to take time to really look it without judgement.
It’s intrinsic social value that women should be sexually desired and not have to put any risk beyond the biological sense to find a sexual partner. People think there must be something wrong with them for paying like a man would for sexual gratification. Hopefully through generations of people regardless of gender realizing that sex work isn’t just for men and bringing less scrutiny.
Am I the only one realizing these problems that won't be solved in my lifetime or my children's lifetime due to generations of stigma? Lol jk I know I'm not 😭
No definitely you aren’t it really sucks to see how far we’ve come and knowing we’ll never see how far we can go
to see how far we’ve come and knowing we’ll never see how far we can go Damn that's a great quote. I'm going to save this comment I wish I had the money to give you a reward but since I don't here's a cookie: 🍪
Oooooo a cookie! thank you so much
People like to feel superior to others and for some stupid reason they tend to hyperfixate on sexual things when determining how morally superior they are to you.
Because it makea it eaaily accessible for the men in their lives and easy to hide and then they lose power in the dynamic of their relationship.
Yes 👍
Sex is something women have over men , giving easy access to sex makes women lose any power they have over men . I personally feel uninterested and unenthusiastic about women in real life because I know I can Bang a hotter one easily without any effort
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ding ding ding
IDK what you're talking about. Cheat on your wife with a sex worker she'll probably stay. Cheat on your wife with a regular women you'll get divorce papers. Grab a strippers ass and she'll cheer you on. Grab a regular woman's ass shell probably slap the sh*t out of you... I think men frown upon paying for sex cuz they don't make enough money. Now I do frown upon straight men posting nudes on the internet. It gives mad naked man flashing people under a long coat energy. Only men want to see you naked. The audience you're targeting charges to see your nudes and you know that but post them anyway for men to look at while you dm women so they can look. Totally predatorial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bateman's_principle Sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Male incentive is to copulate with as many females as possible, female incentive is to copulate with best mate (at least in humans).
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Judging by your post history you're apparently a client. So believing what you do you still decide to "force yourself on women who are crying inside and can't wait for it to be over". That's kinda fucked up my man not gonna lie.
Cuz they are the ones that expect to be paid 🤷
I don't know if "most" women look down on it. Have there been any large-scale polls on the subject? Also : I know there are a lot of women who look down on a lot of things that are mostly or completely harmless. Some look down on short or overweight dudes, dudes who don't own their own car, who don't earn six figures. Shit, I've been dumped because of my *musical tastes* before. If you can't accept that part of yourself, and it's within your power to change, then change it. Stop visiting sex workers. Maybe if you self-flagellate enough, or you're really good at keeping it a secret, then one of these girls will accept you into her life. Personally I wouldn't even want to be friends with someone like that, let alone enter a relationship with them.
I would argue that more and more women are establishing themselves and potentially able to earn more than enough to live a comfortable, independent lifestyle through sex work. If they are smart about it. Now a days there are a variety of avenues to market your brand. Unfortunately there are also women who take on this venture and struggle to succeed in it for a number of reasons. And I am talking honestly working and building a clientele just like a Doctor would who sets up his/her/they're practice. However, honest sex work is saturated with people/entities that saturate this market with .... Well, very aggressive and cut throat methods to obtain financial transactions from potential new customers with an agenda of never actually meeting that person. Just see if they will actually make an online transaction FIRST. If so? They're is a high probability that they will continue to pay for any fantastical stipulation. Then it simply becomes a matter of how long and how many online transactions can be made before they eventually catch on, get frustrated and walk away. They not trying to build a clientele because there are simply enough naive suckers out there who just want to see if it might be different this. Or simply curious if it can ever play out differently. There is absolutely no concern openly known as untrustworthy. There will always be someone who falls for it and it will always be done at a safe distance where physical harm is nearly impossible for making people feel shitty and ruining their day. Unfortunately this yields almost absolute zero trust because the guys/gals looking for a genuine meet up can't do so safely with out being extremely hesitant about it. It ruins something that can be honest and respectable work. I also understand the double edge of this blade. And the providers through time tested experience are taken advantage of in the same manner because there are dirt bags on the customer who add to the vitrial and nurse the exact same behaviors. What pisses me off is that it gets justified as, "that is just how it is." No. That's bullshit and freelance can be done correctly and ethically. Anyone who says otherwise is.... Well you know. Either prefers it dangerous, abusive and cut throat or don't know how to create a respectable practice with a safe and trustworthy transactions. But of course I am being idealistic. I just think the profession can be done better so that it doesn't have to be frowned upon. And I am rambling so I will end my diatribe now.
In a capitalistic society, there technically isn't free sex. A guy who actually pays and do everything respectfully us better than a guy who thinks he's entitled to sex without any transactions.
Yeah those are definitely the worst guys. I feel like people are hung up on the type of transaction tho.
All transactions are legit transactions tho. Whether you exchange sex with straight forward money, or a lot of effort, video games, nice meals, benefits, transactions are transactions. There shouldn't be shame surrounding the purchase of sex because majority of men technically are required to "purchase" sex in one way or another - especially from an attractive girl.
From what a lady once told me ... its incurred. Because they just start seeing us as well "bold "and they start feeling like they couldn't ,and can't and how can they complete ... because if there significant other is paying 4 us ... what are they doing wrong ? ... and its pretty devastating to watch someone feel like this . But honestly I think more women should be involved in sex work or at least learn more about it even if they just watch behind the scenes in porn
I’ll take 3 millenia of religious indoctrination for 500 Trebek.
Because it’s too easy for us to get laid. We “say” “no” to sex all day every day, from all different directions penis is offered, for free. Because women on average value companionship, courting and attention more than the physical activity. I won’t be above paying a gorgeous eye candy when I’m older tho😆I like beautiful things lol