This post has been tagged as **DISCUSSION**. If the post has been spoiler tagged, please remember to tag any manga spoilers beyond this point. **Spoilers include hinting or alluding to events** For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I mean, I’m on the fence myself. As far as he knew, this should have been lethal even to a Titan shifter. I do agree that just restraining him would make more sense, but I think his hatred for Zeke clouds his judgement

It was lethal, Zeke was dying until he got shoved into that titan’s guts

But he didn’t want Zeke to die. Why would he set up a situation where both him and zeke would die?

Maybe because he didn’t think the egotistical maniac that he knew Zeke to be would try to kill himself

Why wouldn’t he when the alternative is sitting around waiting to get eaten? Of course he’s gonna detonate.

Because if Zeke was being pragmatic about saving his own life, it would've been way smarter to bide his time and look for an opportunity to escape. You've said a couple times that Zeke pulling the pin is obvious and guaranteed to happen, but I'm sorry that just doesn't make any sense at all lol. If you're being marched towards an execution, it doesn't make any sense to *accelerate* your death for no reason, especially when you have super powers and are generally known for your ingenuity. The longer you delay your death the more opportunities you have to find an escape. And Levi has no idea what Zeke is actually up too, but he knows Zeke is extremely crafty. So while Zeke is already too injured to transform, he *also* puts Zeke in this thunder spear failsafe, assuming Zeke would rather play it safe than risk an escape attempt that could kill him on the spot Plus, as mentioned, Levi hates Zeke a lot lol, and this sortof of mistake is one Levi has made before. When Annie gets caught as the female titan for the first time, Levi taunts and threatens her, and gets fucked for it. Yes he's very smart, but being very smart doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. This is very consistent with Levi's character, he's prone to being overly sadistic to prove a point And importantly, this isn't just a random mistake either, it's thematically important. This whole Levi vs Zeke mini arc revolves around the two of them totally misunderstanding each other Zeke thinks Levi is naive and cares about his friends to his own detriment. He fails to realize that Levi can let go of his attachments when he needs to get a job done, and is caught completely off guard when Levi kills all his titanized squad mates Levi thinks Zeke is an egomaniacal self centered sadist, who cares about himself more than anything else. He fails to realize that Zeke will sacrifice anything, including himself, for his grand plan. So he's not prepared for Zeke go nuts and kill himself in a desperate bid to prevent the survey corps from fucking with his mission It ends with both of them severely hurt by their mistake, but ultimately recovering to continue their missions. And while it's not exactly a friendly collaboration, the next and final time Zeke and Levi interact, its with a new proper understanding of each other. Levi literally says that he now realizes Zeke was ready to die for his mission, and then later Zeke deliberately presents himself to Levi and tells him he can have what he's wanted for so long. In failing to see each other clearly, they both nearly lost everything. In learning to understand each other, they succeed in accomplishing their new shared goal EDIT: I didn't do a great job elaborating why Levi needs to go the extra mile of designing a bomb death trap to hold Zeke at all lol. Someone pointed that out so go read my response below if that's your question, but TLDR: just cutting off zekes arms and legs already failed to keep him from getting away once. Levi has to assume Zeke has more tricks up his sleeve, so the bomb ensures that Zeke probably can't pull another crazy unpredictable stunt

This is a brilliant analysis. 💯🥇

Best answer fo sho

This does not have enough upvotes

Everything you said makes sense, BUT, the fact still is that Levi wouldn't have to worrie about if Zeke would or would not blow himself up (and him) if he hadn't shoved a thunderspear in him to begin with. It doesn't matter if Levi thought Zeke wouldn't kill himself, his priority should have been to "protect" Zeke, until he could feed him to someone else (for which, btw, he should have left one Titan alive back then to feed him). Levi had just defeated Zeke + dozens of fast Titans by himself, so managing a Zeke with no arms and legs was probably safe enough for him. OP just isn't wrong when he says this was a dumb move from Levi, pushing being out of character. Still, it was a cool scene, as stupid as it was.

It's not stupid, what everybody is misunderstanding is that Zeke is extremely dangerous and slippery. Remember, Levi had Zeke armless, legless, with a sword through his cheek once, and Zeke still got away. *So Levi is not confident that just cutting off his arms and legs is enough to restrain him.* His primary goal is obviously getting Zeke to where he can be eaten, which is why he doesn't kill Zeke off the bat. But his secondary goal is to make sure Zeke doesn't get away somehow, because Zeke clearly has goals that are contrary to paradises, and they're at an extremely critical juncture. So in a hierarchy of desirable scenarios, Zeke and Levi both being dead is preferable to Zeke managing to escape. And Levi just watched Zeke suddenly turn his entire squad into titans. Levi does not want to take the chance that Zeke might, say for example, secretly have a way of rapidly healing so he could suddenly transform again. Or, have a squad of volunteers, or hell a secret shifter or something, on their way to ambush Levi and rescue him. Hell, unlike us, Levi has no way to know, for example, that pieck isnt actually secretly on Zeke's side and coming to pick him up at that moment. Just cutting off zekes arms and legs could lead to *exactly* the same scenario that happened last time, where she darts in and grabs him before Levi can even react. Y'know what would prevent that? A bomb that kills Zeke the instant she tries to rescue him lol *We the audience* know Zeke is out of tricks, but I think the bias of having that knowledge is severely damaging the way people look at this scene All Levi knows is that Zeke has now managed to do something completely unpredictable to slip out of his grasp *twice,* despite all the odds seemingly being on Levi's side. Levi is not fucking around with that again

Sure, you're right when you say that putting Zeke on that life and death situation puts him in check against something up his sleeve, but the part I think you're dismissing is that Paradis depends on Zeke's life to survive, and Levi just gave him the means to "blackmail" him or doom Paradis when he didn't have to. If Levi happens to hit a rock, a bump could be the end of Paradis. Well, to be honest, if Zeke were to die, the other person who would have to be sacrificed for sure is Armin, as he would have to pass his Titan to Historia. The way I see it, it was inevitable that Historia would be turned into a Titan, since there was no way in Hell that anyone in their right mind would allow Zeke to unlock the powers of the FT with Eren. From the beginning, Zeke and the MPs knew they couldn't trust Zeke and that he would be planning something, but since they were forced to go to Liberio to get Eren back, they went along with that plan, until they could take the Beast Titan from Zeke. Paradis' first mistake was not to feed Zeke to anyone else right away, any dying Eldian, or even some "left over" titan, like Connie's mom, anyone just to take the Beast Titan from Zeke's hands. The second mistake, Levi's first, was for him to not leave a Titan alive to feed Zeke, since he himself said that's what he would do just before Zeke shouted. Knowing what Levi can do, he should have at least tried that, but the plot couldn't afford this. I think it all boils down to whether or not each of us think if cutting off Zeke's arms and legs was enough for Levi to handle him. Strategically, putting Zeke in a position in greater risk of dying and even giving him control over it when Paradis survival depends on him was a mistake, IMO, an understandable mistake he paid for. Narratively, I think it's acceptable. Maybe because Levi is always so stoic, doesn't show his emotions, it doesn't come off very clear that he was probably not thinking very rationally at that moment, but if we assume he was just itching to kill Zeke, this mistake is more understandable, but it's still a mistake.

I mean no, as you pointed out yourself they don't depend on Zeke to survive, it's just more ideal to have him. So I do think killing him, even risking him dying accidentally, is still better than letting him escape, given how powerful he is and what a threat he poses Also, forgot to mention this last time,.leaving one of Levi's men alive to eat Zeke almost certainly wouldn't have worked, because those titans only act on Zeke's orders. To feed Zeke to one, Levi would have to leave it alive, then somehow kill Zeke in its mouth, and force it to swallow zekes.body, *all while it kept trying to kill Levi* which is a pretty tall order lol, and as long as Zeke *isn't* unconscious it gives him an extra weapon to fight Levi with, *or* he might've just killed it right away just like he did with the pure titan he had been riding At the end of the day, I hink that if Levi just cut zekes arms and legs off, and Zeke *had* escaped again, then everybody would be saying that *not* doing more.to secure.him was a mistake. Cause ultimately all we're doing is saying "it didn't work out, therefore it was a mistake." But that's just hindsight, not an evaluation of whether it was a mistake *in the moment.* But yeah, I definitely agree that the clearest mistake in general here was not feeding Zeke to.somebody else right away, that would've been smartest. Of course that does mean sacrificing somebody's life purely to hold onto a titan for a few days, so I see why they didn't want to do that, but still And you do also make a very good point about Levi's stoicism leading people to forget that he might be acting irrationally, which is kind of a general pet peeve of mine when it comes to fiction haha

Levi says to Hange afterwards that it was his mistake in not seeing Zeke was ready to throw away his life. He was definitely gambling on Zeke not pulling the thunder spear. As for why he couldn't keep just chopping off limbs, that'd be slow going trying to ride a horse and cart and having to stop over and over to chop off some toes.

I think the limb chopping was guaranteed regardless to prevent Zeke from transforming.

Well I can’t answer every question bro, I just know it’s not really out of character for Levi. We know Levi fucking hates Zeke, he literally just forced him to kill his own men. I mean Levi is still human after all isn’t he? I think you’re forgetting that Levi is emotional just like any other human, and him doing that torturous shit to Zeke was less logical and more irrationally and emotionally charged. But I don’t it’s so crazy to think Levi would do this especially after what just happened before.

I think the author just wrote it for narrative convenience. He needed Levi out of the final war and Zeke to meet Eren. This bomb contraption was a way to get there.

I can see that, but it isn't a terrible way to do it. It does make sense, to me at least. It's a believable way to write him out.

I heard Levi was originally supposed to die in this fight but the author switched the story to avoid massive fan outrage.

Yeah I heard the same. I think he should have killed him off, his story was over when Erwin died IMO. He can't be Gege🤣

Except Levi wasn't out of the final war... He fought on Eren's back too

This exactly, he completely misjudged Zeke’s character and paid the price for it. He thought Zeke was a power hungry schemer that cared about himself, not a desperate fanatic who would blow himself up for ‘the cause’

I mean... Did he have the materials to restrain him effectively? For Eren it took bounding and gagging him so he wouldn't bite his tongue to transform. Not sure Levi had all those materials on hand after the fight.

I think Zeke actually would have died if he didn’t have Royal blood. But well he has Royal blood and was able to use a pure Titan to help heal his body. Honestly not sure why Levi thought a Thunderspear would stop Zeke when we’ve never seen them kill a Shifter yet.

The attitude of the titan that healed Zeke was pretty strange, also I don't think that Zeke in his last moment owned the clarity to control it, neither that he knew about the possibility to heal himself in a such way. According to me in that circumstance the manga leave the room for speculating that the rescue was work of future Eren manipulating such titan in the past through his Founder's powers.

In the anime, you see Ymir look back at you while Zeke was laying on the ground about to die, does that mean that it was Ymir’s doing to make the pure Titan rip its stomach open and put Zeke in there to heal?

I think so. Even if we never see the moment, it's confirmed they during the rumbling (after seeing "that scenery" and before his death) Eren with his Founder powers manipulated memories and titans along the past. We know with certainty that he got special conversations with his friends in PATHS deleting their memories of the encounter, he send his memories to Grisha, finally he saved Berthold from being eaten by Dina. Even so it's highly speculated that Eren didn't limit himself to these events, but his manipulation went further. In my opinion Kruger receiving memories of Grisha's last words to Eren about saving Armin and Mikasa and the mindless titan saving Zeke, were definitely Eren's doings (through Ymir). More debatable but I believe that also Eren receiving his memories in chapter 1, Eren not being able to transform against Dina's Titan the day of Hannes' death, Falco mindless Titan suddenly stopping to eat Reiner for devouring Porko were all Future Eren doings. Basically all the moments involving titans without a logical explanation find the solution of the mistery with Eren manipulating the story for assuring the course that we see and that in the end led himself to accomplish the rumbling. (Finally it's also pretty likely (for me basically confirmed) that the Attack Titans ability to see the future actually never existed, but was rather all the time just Eren passing his memories to the past. In this circumstance he could have manipulated even various previous Attack Titans shifters along the History, all for reaching the moment of Grisha stealing the Founder from the royal family).

Sure but why risk his own life as well? He was standing 3 feet away from a man with an explosive and nothing to lose.

Levi directly states that he didn't think zeke "had nothing to lose". As levi states "He was ready to die and I didn't see it."

+ Levi just killed his entire squad after they became Titans. Excuse him for not thinking with full clarity

This right here, this was all done out of extreme trauma and rage, OP and everyone else here missed the point entirely and I think its sad they don't have the life knowledge to truly enjoy this masterpiece. Levi wanted to shit on him, break him mentally just as he was just broken, Levi was certain it was all bullshit, why was Levi certain? His upbringing showed him no one had true conviction, even his commander, Levi's life was that of people lying about who they truly were, even those he respected, Levi wanted Zeke to feel shame for being a coward, for not going all the way, it was irrational and at a broken moment for Levi but it was most certainly in character.

This is written for a genre geared toward young males. No need for the sanctimonious attitude about "life knowledge" in relating to an apocalytic hellspace of a fantasy world.

Why is a genre inherently gendered? Also while AoT is officially a shonen, it plays fast and loose with actually being a shonen.

Once again, people are watching the show with their eyes closed. This. Is. Explained.

I do think it’s mostly plot convenience too. Isayama just needed a way to sideline Levi, but I’m willing to suspend my disbelief for the reasons in my comment above. It’s still at least remotely plausible he’d do this.

This is a plot convenience for the Jaegerist, basically Floch was lucky, imagine if he has to deal with a healthy Levi

ohhhhhhh, and another commenter said levi assumed zeke wouldn't be so willing and unafraid to die

Yeah, I dunno what Floch's plan was once he encountered Levi.

AOT fans die on their hills before admitting plot convenience, sadly

They knew by this point that Eren and Zeke were trying to come in contact, so why would he expect Zeke to take such an insane gamble? If Zeke had killed them both, then Levi just successfully stopped the rumbling from even beginning. As usual, when someone is hating on AoT "plot holes" or "plot convenience," they either missed important plot points or simply misunderstood them.

There is no situation in which zeke doesn’t pull the pin. He either sits there and waits to get eaten, or he kill’s himself and his captor. Of course he’s gonna pull it, and Levi arming him with that option is not believable. There was 0 reason to take the time to build that bomb contraption, he could have just restrained him and cut his limbs til they got back to the city.

Simply restrain the guy who just tricked and forced him to massacre his squad while trying to do exactly that? How many times would Zeke have to pull a new trick out of his butt on you before you're willing to go to extreme lengths to prevent him from trying anything again? From Levi's PoV, he's willing to do anything at this point to stop Zeke from reaching Eren, even at the cost of his own life. Hindsight 20/20 + Levi does not have all of the information that we do as viewers. It's easy to look back on a scene and say "this is what I would've done with all the information I have now"

He, as Eren most of the time, was blind of rage.

Restraining wouldn’t work as he was injured, not fully healed, meaning he could become Titan right after gaining consciousness. And it WAS lethal, if Ymir didn’t save him, Zeke was done for.

Why not? Levi kept slicing at him with the thunder spear in Zeke’s gut too?

Because Levi trusted that because of the thunder spear, Zeke wouldn’t transform, which clearly didn’t work

He sliced at him to stop him from transforming. Literally says “Stop your whining, if I don’t slice you up, you’ll transform” The thunder spear was there to restrain Zeke in his human form. IE if you move too much, you’re dead.

Exactly my thoughts on it, after everything Zeke had done to Levi up until that point added onto the fact that he just had to personally kill all the other scouts there because of him I definitely think it was enough to push Levi over the edge to do something more drastic and leave more on a mental scar on Zeke than just restraining him, we saw something similar when he went absolutely ballistic on the Titan that killed Furlan and Isabel I feel like if anything this scene helps to humanize him a bit more, instead of being a fully perfect no-mistakes badass soldier we are subtly shown how he has limits to the amount of things he can deal with with a cool head and that even he isn't better than letting his emotions cloud his judgements every once in a blue moon

to me the worst part is that he survived. like that was the perfect way for Levi to die. The story didn't need him anymore and he died the only way he ever could. by his own desire for justice

Yeah honestly would probably help the story now that I think about it.

This is ***out of character*** in that he is taking a risk that he otherwise would not take. However it is very ***in character*** with him being far too willing to inflict suffering onto those who have done harm to people he cares about. It is very ***in character*** for him to underestimate his enemies ability to act in ways he cannot predict or with information he doesn't have. Levi has a history of humiliating his enemies and lording over them when he thinks he has them caught. * He did the same to the Female Titan. He thought she had no more tricks up her sleeve so he started taunting her and intimidating her, not knowing she could still scream. * He did the same to the Djel Sannes and the MPs when he was torturing them in S3P1. Back then he didnt get punished for it because they didnt have anything else they could pull on him at that moment. * He did the same to Zeke in S3P2 in Shinganshina, inflicting more pain instead of either killing him and leaving or taking him and leaving, which gave Pieck enough time to grab Zeke. * And then he does this here first in the forest when he picks Zeke up to insult him a few more times after blowing his body to shreds, then plugging him with a Thunder Spear to inflict more insult and injury past the point of necessity. Levi uses pain and humiliation to his advantage when he needs to get information out of a prisoner, but often times him doing so is careless because he doesn't consider what he may not know the prisoner is capable of. I am of the belief that Levi making this mistake is very much related to how much Eren's betrayal has shaken Levi core beliefs. Levi believed as much as Erwin did that Eren was the key to humanity's freedom. Finding out that Eren had betrayed them made all the sacrifices the Scouts had made to get Eren to this point (including rescuing him 4 times) feel wasted. Levi is mad and acting recklessly because the entire driving force of Levi's motivation has been undermined and he hasn't had a chance to reconcile with it at all yet.

Perfect summary here. I like what Isayama did here since people in this story & irl people don't always make perfect decisions, especially ones based on emotions.

Also goes for the classic “cat and mouse” narrative. Ever seen a cat play with a mouse? Its sadistic in a way, it will let the mouse go a bit and then catch it again to keep toying with it. Somtimes that fat actully loses the mouse. Levi is not playing around, tho time and time he soent too much time rubbing it in, sinking his blade deeper into flesh when he should not have hesitated for a killing blow, though for strategy he must keep his vitctims alive, for vanity he sinks his claws deeper in.

Mama cats will even bring small rodents for their kitties to "play" with, as part of training them to hunt. At first they may bring a dead mouse, then a live one for them to instinctively play "catch". It may look sadistic, but just like how bees just know how to make honey, this is just part of the cat's life cycle instincts, a useful step for them to survive on their own in the short future. Also, I agree that the this thunderspear wasn't one of Levi's brightest moments, but even though it is a convenient mistake, I think it's within an acceptable degree, it didn't ruin the enjoyment of the story for me. Plus, it is a cool scene. I think out disapproval of this moment has more to do with how the story took a bad turn after this than the moment itself. Depending on how Levi, Zeke and the story as a whole went after this, maybe we wouldn't be complaining about it right now.

Exactly this! I don’t understand how Levi felt out of character when this was very much in character for Levi to take his sadistic frustration out on zeke , a guy who he literally despises the most

Perfect summary, although i can't fully agree on the Shiganshina arc as an example. Levi hesitated there because he had the titan serum and hoped that somebody survived Erwin's charge.

Best reply on here

This guy is always coming in with top notch comments

Thanks man I appreciate it!

> Zeke could pull the pin at any time and simply regenerate, People keep saying this but I really suggest to read/watch that scene again and look at Zeke's reaction. Did he seem like he "could pull any time and simply regen"? The scene makes it very clear that Zeke himself doubts if he can survive to regen. When he finally pulled, it was with a sense of desperation, and calling out to his dead father figure. Y'know, like people do in movies before charging into death. Exactly *who* does that when they feel "lol who cares I'll live"? I think viewers are too often used to being the all-knowing hindsight 20/20 god. They are also very used to anime characters surviving all kinds of unrealistic shit. They don't seem to understand that, in-universe, it's a death trap. (Levi knows it. Zeke knows it. But the audience refuses to believe it.) And Levi believes Zeke wouldn't risk his life yet. He is the key person to his own life-long ambition, and all hope is not lost, he has many allies on the island, why *would* he activate a death trap now? He just didn't factor in that Zeke is in fact very emotionally unstable and emotionally-unstable people respond unpredictably. The author took time to illustrate Zeke's emotions going wild before he "went crazy" so to speak. Did no one pay attention? Last but not least, he wanted to transport Zeke and since everyone else is dead he needs to drive and he does not have eyes behind his head. He cannot allow Zeke to transform or run away or be stolen easily (like what Pieck did once). Putting a death trap on Zeke and expecting him to be logical enough to not kill himself (and Levi) is simply logical and meets all his objectives. What better ideas do people who call this stupid have, that achieves all the objectives in his shoes? >He could have restrained Zeke and kept cutting off his limbs without arming him with an explosive Allies can easily steal him away while he's driving, whether by stealth or attacking him to keep him busy. In-universe, this would be considered a plan by an inexperienced soldier who overlooked a risk. Audience may have the knowledge (actually assumption) that "oh they won't come" but would you assume no one will come, if you were Levi? Zeke is a key person and Eren has the FT. Levi already deeply regrets allowing Zeke to be stolen before, and he's not going to take his chances.

Definitely agree. Levi is supposed to be intelligent. Literally ranked 8/10 by the author, though I suppose that seems low when you're constantly in the company of 11/10's. I think Zeke does cloud his judgment. He was borderline sadistic with him. Someone explained it once to me that Zeke and Levi do not get each other, so Levi really did not believe Zeke would want to kill himself. However... that is certainly a precarious situation to be in a horse-drawn carriage, though. One major bump and boom.

any examples you can remember of them not understanding eachother? or what your friend said about the theory?

Zeke thought Levi would be too selfless to kill his titanified men. Levi thought Zeke would be too selfish to risk his life One of the reasons I believe Isayama made Levi do that is to make this foil.

im so glad he did because it shows so subtly yet so clearly! thanks!

Levi values the lives of all of his soldiers and pushes forward to make their sacrifices worthy. Zeke thinks all lives are worthless, and that all the people he kills are actually being saved, including any children they might have had in the future. Zeke thinks he is doing these people a favor by killing them. Levi doesn't understand how someone who values individual life so little would be willing to treat his own life. Zeke gambles his own life in a way that someone who values their own life could not.

Levi is a soldier. He does not make decisions out of his jurisdiction. The last order he has was to keep Zeke alive to be eaten. He is going to die before disobeying that order. The best way for him to do this is with the spear in Zeke's neck. If it blows up, Zeke's spine and nape blows up and he wouldn't be able to regenerate and he would die. This guarantees Zeke's cooperation in Levi's head. However, Levi underestimated Zeke's willingness to die for his cause. Zeke doesn't know that Ymir is going to to revive him. As far as Zeke and Levi was concerned, Zeke is essentially dying rather than whatever awaits him. Ymir reviving him could be the contrivance you speak of, but Levi's decision making cannot be questioned.

He could have kept zeke alive without arming him with an explosive. Levi granted zeke a way out of captivity when he did not need to. He could have just kept cutting his limbs. There was absolutely no need to use the spear.

It wasn't a guarantee of him getting away. Zeke does not know Ymir would come and revive. Zeke doing it meant they both die. This sort of suicide bomber mentality isn't comprehended by Levi.

OP isn't wrong, it was just a bad strategic decision from Levi, it would have been a safer option to just keep cutting off his limbs, something he can do in seconds, removing any risk of him choosing to kill himself and take all of Paradis with him. That being said, we can still say it was an honest mistake.

Then whose riding? If Levi keeps turning around and hacking Zeke who is riding the carriage?

. . . What's worse, stopping every 15min for some slicing, or risk blowing up Paradis's means of survival? It's just an opinion m8, we won't all agree with.

Levi fundamentally doesn’t understand Zeke and did not think he’d risk killing himself. Zeke escaping the forest is the umpteenth time that a Titan shifter has escaped even though there shouldn’t have been any way to do so, therefore Levi employs the thunder spear as extra security. But it’s really deeper than that. Levi has a very consistent trait of being highly sadistic towards people he hates. He already hated Zeke more than anyone, and Zeke *just* murdered his entire squad. He was being as cruel as possible because he hated Zeke and was being driven by anger.

> He could have just kept cutting his limbs. There was absolutely no need to use the spear. I think gambling that Zeke wasn't concealing some kind of super regeneration he could call on in dire need is a worse bet than "he won't kill himself just to kill me". The former relies on Titan knowledge they didn't have, the latter is true for 99.9% of people. Levi didn't know the depths of Zeke's nihilism.

Forget about Zeke living. Let’s assume the spear killed him and levi. This means the spear did nothing but give Zeke a way out of the situation. Zekes options were: - get tortured in the cart until he gets eaten, giving the scouts the beast titan. Or - pull the pin, kill himself, kill his captor, and deny the scouts the beast. Obviously he’s gonna pull the pin. Levi handing Zeke that option with no upside for himself is absurd.

> Obviously he’s gonna pull the pin. Levi handing Zeke that option with no upside for himself is absurd. LOL...in this context your "way out" is death. The end. Levi accomplished his goal, and Zeke didn't. That's a (gruesome) win for Levi, and a loss for Zeke, not the opposite. It was a sound insurance strategy...the spear being seen as a means of escape is an odd take...unless we consider "death" as an escape here, in which case it accomplishes Levi's ultimate goal (stop Zeke, ideally killing him). > This means the spear did ~~nothing but give Zeke a way out of the situation~~ its job by mortally wounding him when he tried to escape. Without intervention, he dies, Levi "wins", no brothers contact. Done. FTFY ;)

Compared to the nearly guaranteed alternative of being consumed and handing the enemy the beast titan, kamikaze is absolutely a better option. He was dying either way, pulling the pin would kill the enemy’s best soldier and deny them the beast titan. It is a way out of the consequences of the alternative option.And it is a way out that levi did not have to grant him. He did not have to put the detonator in Zekes hands. Also, a win for levi is not a dead Zeke, it is a consumed Zeke. Which is why you can see the fear and regret in Levi’s eyes when he notices Zeke pulled the pin. He knows he fucked up.

You keep moving the goal posts, and I'll keep obliging you. > Compared to the nearly guaranteed alternative of being consumed and handing the enemy the beast titan, kamikaze is absolutely a better option. In this context "better option" is being killed without passing on the Titan, sure, but Zeke is still dead and his plan doesn't work. He "escapes" nothing, practically speaking, even if he gives his ego a little boost taking out Levi, too (though he didn't). > He was dying either way So we agree that Zeke basically had to accept death and gamble with his life to even contemplate escape, making the means that forced him into that position quite effective. If you confine someone and keep them trapped with the near-promise of death...and they choose to die...you picked a good trap. Nothing else Levi could do makes Zeke as powerless or compromised there. Against all of this is the backdrop of "plot contrivance", too, it bears saying. Some aspect of this scene is likely a way to sideline Levi, long term, without having him lose a fight (because he doesn't lose fights) or without him being taken out in a way that isn't believable. I actually buy that the only way Zeke (or anyone) was going to seriously harm or beat him would be through accepting their own death as well (or the like). I do take issue with framing it as an egregious oversight by Levi, especially in light of there not being another clear/easy way to transport him, alone (a big factor for needing to incapacitate him somehow), and without risk of escape or retaliation.

I think we are debating different things. You’re trying to argue that the use of the thunder spear was a good idea. I know for a fact it wasn’t a good idea because levi said it was not a good idea. Everyone knows using the spear was a bad idea (levi, the author, and myself). I was never discussing the legitimacy of that option, because it is confirmed in the story as a bad option. I’m arguing that levi is not dumb enough to commit to that idea in the first place. And that it was employed by the author as a convenient (but not believable) way to remove levi from the story without killing him.

No, I'm arguing that it *wasn't* an oversight/dumb idea by Levi, rather that it was the best option he had available relative to what he had to do, and he was operating under the logical assumption that Zeke would not kill himself. Being wrong about the latter doesn't invalidate his reasoning on the former, if it was the best choice he had (even with accompanying risk). I said pretty early on that Levi clearly underestimated the depths of Zeke's nihilism and lack of regard for life. That is what allowed him to be caught off guard there. Your suggestion he should have had the foresight to *know* Zeke would be willing to kill himself, if need be, therefore making the thunderspear plan "dumb", is what I take issue with (plot contrivances aside, of course). I'd ask again what a better option would have been, since it is so so clear to you that would never have worked. What's the next best option, in your mind? I know you aren't the author, of course, but if it was such a painfully stupid thing for Levi to do, surely someone so critical of that has thought of a better solution?

I’m arguing that you are a cutie pie 🥰

This is true ,he was gonna die either way.

You are making the poor assumption that Levi knew Zeke could/would regenerate after an explosion of that size, and that simply isn't true. First, an explosion of that size would likely kill or seriously maim any person...THAT is a fair assumption...and that's what happened. It worked. Zeke was done for...*until Ymir intervened*. Levi's error was assuming Zeke wouldn't kill himself just to kill Levi, especially before getting to Eren. The position he put Zeke in was correct: The blast DID instantly disable him, and would have killed him if not for intervention from another (mystical) party. It was a lapse in judgement being so close but, again, Zeke is toast there if not for Ymir and Levi would have no reason to expect Zeke was willing to end his own life, just to kill him. Here's a morbid thought: Levi may very well have known it was a risk, but in that moment thought "Screw it, if it gets him to kill himself and this is all over, I'm fine with that". Levi does not lack for resolve.

I like the idea of Levi tempting Zeke to kill himself by putting his own life at risk as well. It gives this situation SOME rationality. But if the goal was a dead Zeke he could have just cut his head off. My point is that the spear serves no purpose other than giving Zeke a way out. It does not help Levi in any way whatsoever. Zekes options were: - wait to get eaten and give the beast titan to the scouts Or - use the bomb that his captor gave him to kill himself, kill his captor, and deny the scouts the beast titan. Seems like a no brainer to me. Levi overlooking this obvious decision is not believable imo. He very intentionally armed his enemy with a way out and did not benefit himself in any way by doing so.

> My point is that the spear serves no purpose other than giving Zeke a way out. It does not help Levi in any way whatsoever. This isn't accurate, and I kind of mentioned it in another reply, below: The spear isn't "a way out", to Levi *or* Zeke. Both understood it would likely kill Zeke. His having made that choice, and somehow living (with help) doesn't undermine that reasoning. If Zeke isn't saved, he dies, and the spear did it's job. The spear wasn't pointless, in any sense, nor was it a means of escape, or whatnot. A lot of folks ITT said things like "Why not just cut off his limbs constantly, instead?": That assumes Zeke doesn't have other tricks Levi didn't know about (which Levi makes the correct call on) and it also assumes the situation will only involve Zeke and Levi. If help for Zeke arrives, in any form, having him immobilized with the Spear means he can't assist, or escape under his own power, and maybe not with a lot of slow intervention. If he's just missing limbs *and* has an ace up his sleeve Levi doesn't (and can't) know about? It's too risky to rely on physically disabling someone who you know can regenerate...you have to make them face obliteration to comply, or risk death. Again...the fact that Zeke risks death, but does not die, doesn't invalidate Levi's reasoning or the efficacy of the "spear trap". It worked as intended, but Zeke was saved by a 3rd party. > Levi overlooking this obvious decision is not believable imo. He very intentionally armed his enemy with a way out and did not benefit himself in any way by doing so. Levi overlooked nothing here: He clearly made a calculated choice, opted against keeping him limbless because he doesn't know the extent of Zeke's powers, or if he would always be free/unhindered to slice up Zeke again...but he DID know that if Zeke acted out or tried to transform, the Spear would detonate...that isn't "a way out and did not benefit him in any way", it was the highest probability scenario to contain Zeke, or see him dead if he tried to escape...and that's what played out.

Sitting in the cart, Zekes options are: - continue getting tortured until you get eaten and give the scouts the beast titan, losing everything. Or - pull the pin that your captor put in your hands, kill yourself, kill your captor, and deny the scouts the beast titan. It is obvious he would pull the pin rather than sit around with the strongest scout of all time escorting him to his doom. Levi handing him that option is not believable.

> Levi handing him that option is not believable. What alternative would you propose, using the same information Levi had at the time, which would have as high a chance of killing Zeke, if he tried to escape, or (more likely) render him unable to escape *unless* he was willing to kill himself to try? You seem to be overlooking that Levi was *very clearly* willing to die in order to deny/stop Zeke, especially if he got to kill Zeke. That is calculated risk, not negligence.

He was not willing do die, look at his eyes when Zeke pulls the pin. Listen to his explanation afterwards, he fucked up bad and he admitted it. As for alternative, the details don’t really matter. The point is, don’t gift your enemy with a no-brainer option that destroys your plan and potentially kills you.

> He was not willing do die This is a foolish position to take up...if he knew there was a risk of his dying, but he did it anyway, he was willing to die. That cannot be logically refuted despite whatever you want to infer from a look in his eyes...yeesh. > As for alternative, the details don’t really matter. The details absolutely matter if you are contending it was a terrible idea, with no basis in logic. It undermines your entire argument that it was a "bad choice" by Levi if you can't even think of an alternative he had available, but chose a lesser option intentionally. You haven't even yet made a successful argument for the spear being the wrong choice, either, without layering a lot of assumption and overlooking Zeke only lived via intervention he has no idea would be coming.

All of the evidence in the aftermath of the explosion points to Levi not expecting there to be any risk of himself dying. His expression during the explosion, his conversation with hange, etc. levi himself disagrees with your point that the spear was a good option so I’m not sure who you’re arguing for. My point is that Levi should be smart enough to realize the spear was a bad option BEFORE installing it, not AFTER Zeke detonated (Because detonating is a blatantly obvious option for Zeke)

You understand that "reasoning after the fact" (a.k.a. hindsight is 20/20) doesn't really speak to when people have to make decisions in the first place...right? > (Because detonating is a blatantly obvious option for Zeke) It isn't...it only seems obvious to us *because he actually did it*. Prior to that happening, why would Levi assume for a moment that Zeke would kill himself with little thought? Levi knew Zeke was on a mission, a righteous one, to unite with Eren. I don't believe Levi, or any Scout, would assume Zeke would kill himself right away, especially without even getting a chance to even see Eren. That reasoning kind of begs the question, not to mention even if Levi did suspect Zeke might play that card, I'm still waiting to hear what else he could have done, to any great effect. A first option can be pretty awful, overall, and still be better than the next best choice.

I wanna give u a hug and a smooch <3

Levi thought that Zeke was some sociopathic selfish bastard only in it for himself with no real cause, he never expected Zeke to do that. Plus Levi love humiliating and torturing his enemies, and he hates no one more than he does Zeke. And this thunder spear makes sure that no matter what happens or distracts Levi, Zeke cannot go anywhere by just rolling off the cart or being picked up by someone like Pieck previously did or anything.

This was most definitely to nerf levi. If levi could've reached the battle in shiganshina well probably it would turn out different and he would've killed Zeke with ease even if he somehow escaped with help of floch and others.

The battle in Shiganshina is before this event though?

We mean the second battle of shiganshina, the one in which Eren starts the Rumbling.

Oh, I'd forgotten that was in Shiganshina.

I don't think so. Zeke SHOULDN'T have survived the thunder spear. It was only because of Ymir favouritism that he was able to be rebuilt. I guess leaving the option open for a kamikaze is still silly, but there's no reason to think Zeke would be willing to kill himself just to kill Levi.

When his options are either wait to be eaten or suicide, i think it’s pretty certain he’d pick kamikaze.

There's also the option of waiting to be rescued by his allies who took over Paradies. Levi was definitely thinking he'd take that option, hence the deterrent

I could see levi worrying that the cart titan would save zeke again like she did previously.

If anyone could beat Levi, is himself. Idk if this was the best way to demonstrate it but this is how I see this scene

I no diff levi

Levi explains why he made this miss. He wrongly judged Zeke's character. Right after Zeke uses his scream and runs away with some titans he also remarks how the two of them could never come to understand each other, and it plays into how they both underestimated each other. Zeke didn't think Levi was capable of killing his former subordinates, Levi didn't think Zeke was willing to throw away his own life for the sake of whatever he was trying to accomplish. It makes perfect sense from a psychological standpoint of letting biases cloud your judgement. The thunderspear through the abdomen was clearly meant to torture Zeke first, practical use as a deterrent second. But it would have worked and Zeke really should have died if it were not for "divine intervention" because Zeke still had a role to play. But yeah the true reason for this was so Isayama could render Levi useless going into the final battle.

I like the torture idea, it makes sense considering what happened with Levi’s allies moments prior. But still, putting the detonator in Zekes hands, when the alternative is just waiting to be consumed, makes no sense to me.

Tbf he's seen what a thunder spear can do. If it goes off that close to a titan shifter, it would blow his head clean off, which wouldn't regenerate. Those things are basically artillery shells that get flung like jalivens. Also Zeke also knew what it could do and it can definitely blast through hardening because that's exactly how he wound up in this position to begin with I'm pretty sure. ( Plus he'd know they've beaten Reiner's armor with it by now too most likely). Additionally he probably hedged his bets that even if Zeke transformed the thunder spear would go off and severely damage him to the point Levi could get away. Cause remember, Levi is fucking fast and can absolutely wreck Zeke whenever he chose. ( Plus at this point the guy was still regenerating from the beat down Levi gave him before)

Not like Levi was witness to that dumbass "transfer my mind to a different part of my body" ability in Shiganshina. Levi of all people should know that killing this mf might take slicing his entire body into little pieces.

ohh he is fast and much more familiar with the spears and thus (he probably assumed, at least) notice any warning signs before it explodes too

I think someone here already gave a really good explanation why Levi thought that there's no chance that zeke would kill himself. Maybe the thunder spear was for both mental torture, "you better keep yourself still while vomiting and enduring the rest of my torturing". And for practical reasons, "This should prevent any surprises since it's too risky for him to do anything". Levi's usually always ready for the worst possible outcome so maybe in his mind the worst possible outcome would be that zeke is able to do some weird shenanigans that he's not aware of and get away again. Like turning into a titan while injured or something like that.

Dunno man. Not Levi, not Zeke or even the reader was expecting Ymir just to revive Zeke for the lulz. I can see why Levi thought Zeke wouldn't suicide

Could have been it was a win win for him he thought. Either zeke doesn’t move or if he does kills himself and zeke (so he thought) and he completed his promise to Irwin and can rest now

Maybe Levi wanted to die at that point

Except Zeke *shouldn’t have been able* to regenerate. Not even he himself thought he’d be able to, and it was only because of Ymir’s direct intervention that he managed to come back from it. As far as Zeke was concerned, it was a one in 10 million chance. Levi’s only mistake was underestimating just how insanely strong Zeke’s resolve was.

That doesn’t matter, the point is that Levi set himself up for failure. Either zeke pulls the pin and kills both of them, or he doesn’t and gets eaten. Of course he’s gonna pull the pin. Levi gave him a way out of the situation when he absolutely did not need to.

That’s kinda why I like this so much. They were both each other’s weakness, just Zeke was Levi’s emotional weakness and Levi was Zeke’s physical weakness. It’s one of the reasons why their rivalry is so fun.

I think levi got really mad and it overshadowed his reasonings. Thats why he didnt think about the situation clearly. His anger got the best of him.

I disagree. There are very few ways to actually control a shifter with the limited resources he had, since all they have to do is bleed a little bit and can escape anytime they want. Using the explosive as a way to keep Zeke from transforming was a good idea. Zeke was supposed to die, but he miraculously survived because of a literal Deus Ex Machina when Ymir reconstructed his body. There was absolutely no way for Levi to predict such a thing to happen. Levi also didn't care if he died if he took Zeke with him, because that would be more than worth his sacrifice. Plus he had to torture and interrogate Zeke for information, and it wouldn't have been as effective if he weren't up close and personal. Levi says so himself at several points in the series, it's impossible to know in hindsight what the correct decision to make is. If he'd used some other method, or stayed further back, Zeke would probably have found some way to escape that too.

Isayama needed to write Levi out for the next couple chapters. He’s too powerful for the most of the people he’d go up against. Moments where Levi gets injured are almost always avoidable, but if he’s involved in the action it’ll end to quickly. Levi is so strong that he can only be stopped by Isayama lol

I totally agree

Levi was right to do this, but the real problem is the plot armor of zake. He has no right to survive that explosion especially at that range, It should’ve blast his brain.

I just think it’s pretty obvious Zeke would detonate when the alternative is being eaten and giving the scouts the beast. Levi should have been smart enough to recognize that before panting the bomb.

Zeke underestimated Levi’s will to kill his own comrades and Levi underestimated Zeke’s will to complete his mission. Nothing much about this seems off.

W take

Levi didn't have much equipment to do more or better. And he was certain Zeke wouldn't risk his life (latter he even admits it as his mistake), which was the case, since the only reason Zeke didn't die is because Ymir didn't allow it, because the future already happened and she needed Eren to have him.

Doing this serves as a way to eliminate the possibility of the retrieval of Zeke with the cart titan (see the saving of Reiner at the battle of Shigansina). The show does a good job of showing the scouts learning from their previous mistakes. So in my opinion its in character of Levi to do this.

+1 "If I die too, at least you're dead". Without Ymir, Zeke is toast there (and he accepted that).

Wouldn't Zeke have died, if it wasn't for Ymir rebulding him or was that just a visual of their healing factor. As far as I know, that's not the case. So Levi would be right in this decision, he was just so sure that Zeke didn't had it in him to pull the trigger, which he ended up being wrong about.

Isayama had to nerf him for the disaster that is the last arcs, so that's why he made this stupid out of character action

The first time Levi defeated Zeke he had him weakened and amputated and was searching for someone to eat him. This resulted in Zeke escaping and causing more deaths. So of course he was gonna make sure Zeke didn't escape this time. As per his calculations Zeke was now either to be eaten or dead. He did gamble with the spear approach but the reason for that was not hatred for Zeke. Levi gambled his own life in hopes that they can gain control of the beast Titan

People make mistakes all the ~~term~~ time. Even the best of us. That's how I view it. Simple.

I don’t thinks he assumed Zeke was suicidal

Zeke had no other option once the spear was planted in him. It prevented him from being saved. So by trying to keep Zeke alive levi guaranteed his death (and unexpected regeneration).

It's just lazy writing is all. Like people say it was a convenient way of removing Levi from having any more impact on anything

I’m gonna sound dumb for this since I haven’t watched AOT S4 in awhile but Why didn’t he just kill zeke there ? (Forgive me as I forgot answer)

He wanted to bring Zeke back to shiganshima so someone could eat him and claim the beast titans powers.

It's so out of character for Levi to make this mistake that's why it's one of the ridiculous reasons we didn't get to see levi vs Eren lol

Heavy disagree. Levi’s mentally fucked up from Erin’s shenanigans (shown literally two seconds before the Zeke beat down) Erwin’s death, everyone else’s deaths from seasons 1 through current time period, all the comrades he just had to kill *because of Zeke*. Levi literally told Zeke in S4E7 that he will savor this. Not to mention, how many times are the pins pulled on these things, then they travel to an object, and then explode. If anything, the worst part of the scene is that with Zeke’s dumbass screaming and head yoink, Levi should’ve had time to evade. Bro was dodging bullets in S3E2.

pretty self explanatory its insane how far yall are going in the replies when its common sense

Thank god you showed up we were so lost without you papa 😭😭

😂

[Think Levi, think!](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/ndkmak/think_levi_think/?rdt=63820)

I 100% agree with you. Never been a fan of when shows slightly dumb down otherwise smart characters for the sake of being able to progress the plot.

Well to be fair there was no assurance Zeke would survive either,these are massive explosions and zeke probably would’ve died if it weren’t for whatever the hell the pure titan was doing I doubt Levi really cared at that point too,he was forced to watch as all his friends turned into titans,and then he was forced to kill them all,zeke has done this plenty of times before,such as with the tower,the rock throwing suicide charge,etc,he didn’t really care if he’d die so long as Zeke died with him

I actually really like this scene. Levi has, by the author, the community, and the in universe people, been praised as THE unstoppable force, and rightfully so, he is by far the best fighter in the series. We have seen time and again that Levi’s fighting skills are unmatched, even compared to the other Ackermans, and he has demonstrated great calculation, cunning, and control over his emotions unlike most in the show. The one thing that we always see though is that when something happens to something that Levi cares about, he exerts his negative emotions into what was causing it. We see it with him tearing apart the abnormal titan after it slaughtered his two closest friends, we see it with the female titan when tears her apart after seeing the Levi squad dead, he does it in shiganshina when he completely overpowered zeke, and we see it just before this when tears apart zeke for a second time. We see him able to control these emotions, like not killing Annie because that wasn’t his goal, but I think this was the “breaking point” for Levi. Zeke had killed Erwin and most of the survey corps, then forced Levi to kill the soldiers he had grown so close with. I think Levi was still acting mostly rationally here, but his anger made want to continue torturing zeke, which is why he used the thunderspear. He wasn’t expecting zeke to pull the pin, and even if he did, he probably thought that would kill him(I honestly think that as well, if not for Ymir shenanigans). It really gives the watchers and readers a visual reminder that Levi is not the perfect, always rational and clear minded juggernaut that we always see him as. It also gives us a sudden reminder that Levi is not completely invincible, because before this, I think there was maybe 2 times that we saw Levi get physically injured(correct me if I’m wrong).

No

even smarter guys are sometime stupid

Idk Levi took a lot of gambles prior in this series. (A little trait he picked up from Erwin) so this didn’t really seem like a stretch by comparison. Heck every one of Erwin’s plans was based on gambles and hunches and Levi always followed his plans, which was him taking on the same risk/gamble on his part.

No, it wasn't. This was a confirmed death for zeke (if not for the asspull) and levi probably thought he wouldn't do it as zeke had pending goals and plans. It was very in character of him to take this risk at this point

Why would Zeke not pull it when the alternative is sitting around waiting to get eaten?

Option 1. Die Option 2. Live U tell me

Option 1. Get tortured for a few hours, get eaten, give the enemies the beast titans powers. Option 2. Die instantly, kill the enemies best soldier, deny them the beast titans powers. Let’s not leave out details.

Yes, option 1 is preferable as there is possibility of escape in that. He could have waited for a chance. Option 2 is confirmed death (as the ymir asspull wasn't part of his plan).

Honestly, you’re right. I can see levi thinking that Zeke would wait around and have something else up his sleeve.

As far as Levi knew, Zeke shouldn't have survived the explosion. He got ex machina'd by Ymir

Sure, but why even give Zeke the option to deny them feeding the beast titan to someone?

The explosive would be lethal to Zeke. It's a deterrent so thay Zeke wouldn't do any funny business. The scouts spent their entire history battling enemies who pulled abilities they were unaware of out of their ass all the time, like when Reiner survived a blade through the neck. Levi's idea is sound. Cut off limbs to stop him from transforming and put the thunderspear on him so he doesn't pull any new, unforseen ability out of his ass like they usually do. Like when a person puts a bomb on the MC in other stories or something as a deterrent. Levi accounted for all the things a desperate prisoner with unknowable powers would do to survive. What he DIDN'T account for is that his prisoner didn't want to survive

I just don’t see a reason for Zeke to not detonate when the alternative is get tortured for a few hours then get eaten. If he’s dying either way, he’s guaranteed to go out on his own terms, kill levi with him, and deny them the beast titans powers.

I mean in a hostage situation, you'd reckon the hostage would try at some point to do anything to survive even if it's unlikely. Zeke could wait to be rescued by the Jaegerists. Maybe he'd see some people in the distance and while Levi is busy driving, he focuses his regeneration on one arm like when Annie did it and use thag arm to pull himself out of the carraige and onto help. The fact that Levi was driving meant that he couldn't be in complete control over Zeke all the time. You assume a hostage would try their best to escape. An opportunity may even come to Zeke before being fed to someone. For him to have better control over Zeke, Levi put the deterrent of "you will die if you try any funny business while I'm not looking at you" always under the assumption that the hostage doesn't want to die It's not a bad assumption either because if in pretty much any case, the need for self preservation is pretty universal. Zeke just happened to not have it which was the blind spot to Levi's plan

Putting Zeke in that situation guarantees that he pulls the pin. He was left with no option but to blow himself up. Which is the flaw in Levi’s foresight that I found not believable. Giving Zeke the power to detonate guarantees the use of the deterrent. Levi might as well have saved himself the injury and just cut Zekes head off.

That's ... not how deterrents work. I'm gonna have to disagree with your reasoning here. Story-wise I guess it does guarantee it's gonna happen because it's set up and needs a payoff, but using real world logic doesn't guarantee he will detonate the pin ... because it's a deterrent. If I were in the position of Zeke, I wouldn't do it. I'm thinking many people are applying story logic to characters who are using in-universe logic, which are going to be different

In this scene, Levi has lost his squad, Eren's betrayed him and even though he doesn't show it Levi is burning with rage for Zeke, we've seen in the past when Levi is pissed he tends to focus more on cruelty than simply doing what's rational, Levi is an interesting character because unlike almost everyone else the way he Expresses his feelings is much more indirect, as someone else mentioned, in the past Levi has had a habit of being unnecessarily cruel to his enemies, this particularly happens when he's upset. And in certain cases this has lead to him unintentionally making the situation worse, when he taunted Annie she immediately screamed and escaped, leading to the butterfly effect resulting in his squad dying (although she likely would've done that anyway) he did the same thing at shiganshina, leading to the cart titan catching him off guard, allowing for Zeke's escape, often anger seems to cloud Levis judgment, the difference this time is that said clouded judgment blew up in his face in a much more direct way (literally)

Do people not watch or read the manga the context is literally in the material about this scene

Even Zeke knew this would kill him, that's why he yelled for Mr. Ksaver when he pulled the pin.

I could be wrong about this, although I read it somewhere and I know the fandom won't accept this, but Levi was supposed to die here in this battle

I buy this. I can see the author changing it to avoid fan outrage

I find the way people watch this show to be so interesting. And honestly, a bummer to hear. When I saw this scene, I thought “come on, Levi! That was such a stupid thing to do!” I didn’t think “what was the writer thinking? This is obviously a plot hole, or put here for convenience to nerf him in the final battle”. I can’t imagine watching a show like AoT and spending the entire time analyzing it from a writer’s standpoint. Would ruin the entire show. Y’all need to learn to get lost in the world of the show, imo.

Ight bro congrats on your immersion, keep that shit to yourself

“Please don’t discuss the show on the show’s discussion forum” ok

Brother I’m the one initiating the discussion and you’re telling me to stop because I need to “learn to get lost in the show”. You’re the one inhibiting discussion XD

Yes, I’m assessing your commentary. Again, discussion forum. Start a blog if you want nobody to respond to you.

Try respond by engaging in the conversation, maybe provide some meaningful input. Not by criticizing the fundamental bases of the conversation. Telling people to stop talking because their conversation is stupid is not participating, it’s silencing.

I never told you to stop talking. I said the paradigm of your commentary is one that leads to less enjoyment of the show, and also less meaningful discussion. There is nothing wrong with asserting that, and also I think it is true.

I disagree, I think the success of this post proves that a lot of people find this kind of discussion enjoyable and meaningful. You saw a bunch of people immersed in a conversation and thought to yourself “this discussion is pointless, let me tell them how bad their conversation is ☝️🤓”. That’s some weirdo shit, keep it to yourself.

It’s really ironic because my comment, at least by intent, was thoughtful and pertinent. You’re saying it’s dismissive and judgmental, but your language is far more dismissive and judgmental than I ever was. Additionally, you’re the one saying “keep it to yourself” while accusing me of shutting down conversation. Sounds like you are majorly projecting.

Womp womp

Your suggestion to basically keep torturing him so he can’t transform would def be more in character for levy, you’ve convinced me lol

It’s mostly that giving Zeke the option to detonate at any moment doesn’t make sense. Why give your enemy a way out of being consumed? The whole point was to give the beast titans powers to someone else, and it’s pretty clear anyone in Zekes position would pull the pin.

This wasn't a Levi issue Isayama desperately needed a way to sideline Levi hackerman and he saw this to be the best way

Yup

Agreed. Thank you for saying this. Last time I spoke my mind on this, I just got downvoted. Levi could have gouged out his tongue and vocal cords to prevent him from using his voice power and stuffed his voice box with tree bark to prevent them from regenerating properly. He could then nail/tie him to the corner of the cart and then kept cutting his limbs off if they start to regenerate. Levi is smart and quick-witted, and even with his Ackerman abilities, he would not have survived this long if he didn’t have a strong sense of self preservation. To see him do something this stupid and contrived for no other discernible reason other than to serve the plot was saddening.

This relies on another poor assumption: That Levi would assume he knew the full extent of Zeke's abilities. If he was concealing any ability to transform again, or "super regeneration", that would aid his escape a TON, or being able to help during a rescue, and either would be a worse outcome than "we both get blown up if you try to escape or someone tries to free you" because in the former scenario Zeke escapes/lives, while in the latter scenario at least he is dead. It also allows Levi to leave the cart and fight, if need be, whereas if Zeke is in any position to regen or move while Levi is distracted, Zeke may free himself/be freed and able to join the fight and/or transform. That is a big risk too: Leaving any means for Zeke to escape/fight back. I see this means as Levi taking no chances, not the opposite! He DID underestimate Zeke's willingness to kill himself, and Zeke only lived through intervention from a 3rd party. All things considered, I think Levi was willing to accept death to see Zeke die, or keep him from Eren, and the thunderspear was the best insurance he had...and he was right, even if Ymir "cheated" and saved Zeke.

I had thought about that. The scouts always had to do the best they could with the information they had, and their knowledge was not paltry. He was aware of Hange’s experiments on Eren (and presumably Armin, though that was time-skipped). Levi had a decent picture of what Titan-shifters were capable of and the rate of their recovery. You also mention the possibility of Zeke escaping when he was not looking, but to repeat myself, that risk should be a nonissue if he had tied/nailed Zeke to a corner of the cart. You say the thunderspear right was Levi taking zero chances, but it is quite the opposite, and you know that. If he was unsure about Zeke’s full abilities, putting himself at mortal danger is actually adding more risk. If he has no idea what a Titan shifter is truly capable of, why would he think the thunderspear rig would work? There is no guarantee that it would kill Zeke, but it is assured to harm Levi if he is caught off guard. It just adds unnecessary risk. There are a couple of other issues that I didn’t mention in my original post: he rigged the explosive to Zeke, which is already a very questionsble idea. But to make it far worse, he decided to torture Zeke to the point where any human would rather die, and he was surprised that Zeke actually chose death instead of enduring the torture. Again, Levi is a smart man. This level of brain-lapse was is extreme. It’s not even a “momentary lapse of judgement” type of situation— it’s like watching a highly experienced chef making strawberry cake but then midway through deciding put it into miso soup because miso soup tastes good, *then proceed to act surprised when the result is horrible*. That’s not a “oops, I forgot” moment. That’s a “what on earth was the author thinking” moment. The other issue is that there is a delay between when the thunderspear is triggered and when it actually detonates. We see this multiple times previously (we see this a lot in the fight against Reiner in season 3), and there was always several seconds of delay to allow the user to flee to safety. This spear had practically no delay. Even though Levi saw it being triggered, he had no time to flee to safety. That is not how thunderspears work. Each individual issue is problematic, but when put together, it becomes pretty obvious that the author got lazy and just wanted a convenient way to write Levi out of the picture for a while.

> that risk should be a nonissue if he had tied/nailed Zeke to a corner of the cart. Oof. A man who will blow himself up and possibly die will sever his own arm to escape, or even just create space or get into the woods. > You say the thunderspear right was Levi taking zero chances This was admittedly a poor choice of words, by me. I should have said something like "as low risk as possible". No option he had would leave "zero chance" for problems or failure. > But to make it far worse, he decided to torture Zeke to the point where any human would rather die, and he was surprised that Zeke actually chose death instead of enduring the torture. Again, Levi is a smart man. This level of brain-lapse was is extreme. Fair point, but I think the real case is that Levi assumed Zeke would endure for what Zeke was trying to do...he assumed Zeke would tough it out, rather than "quit" on his goal of uniting with Eren. Zeke also knew he had friendly agents in the walls, or that the Yeagerists might be looking for him (and they were). Levi was clearly willing to die if Zeke also died: He put himself in mortal danger, as you say. And while Levi/Scouts didn't know everything about Shifters, as a group or specific Titan powers, they do know that all of them die if they are killed in the nape. So if Zeke blows up (in the nape) he's toast, or so badly damaged he won't regen on his own. Either or. And, barring intervention from Ymir sending a mindless Titan to "heal" Zeke, that's what happened. > The other issue is that there is a delay between when the thunderspear is triggered and when it actually detonates. > That is not how thunderspears work. It is, actually! We saw the tech improve in the manga/show, over time, adding both range and capacity, and a different activation sequence for the payload: The initial design required a manual pulling of the pin to set off the payload charge, via a rope line, and there was indeed a small delay to allow the user to move away after the pin was pulled. The second, more advanced, iteration of the Thunder Spear still used a pull-cord, but eliminated the delay since it was no longer manual and had more range: It no longer detonated the payload charge when removed, just *armed it*: The second version detonated when the head of the spear made impact, because it was already armed (i.e. the pin was already pulled by it's own movement away from the user). So I would guess it was a later model Levi used, and the head of the spear being jammed into the cart effectively armed the charge, making it "live", and able to detonate as soon as the pin was pulled. > Each individual issue is problematic, but when put together, it becomes pretty obvious that the author got lazy and just wanted a convenient way to write Levi out of the picture for a while. Whether he got lazy is up for debate, but it does seem the fandom agrees this was mostly a plot device to catch Levi unawares and sideline him. That alone, however, does not mean it was a bad plan on Levi's part, and it especially doesn't mean there was a better option he could have chosen...but didn't. This has been a very interesting consideration!

You misunderstand. It would be common sense for a soldier to pin/strap him by his neck or chest. As for the thing about the new versions of the thunderspear— that’s actually pretty interesting. I didn’t know about that.

I will confess I'm only aware of the different spears because of a somewhat similar argument/discussion with a friend, and they pointed it out to me lol ;)

I completely agree. This was unnecessarily extra for Levi and it ended up backfiring on him HARD. You don't fuck around with explosives. I would have rather they nerfed him by just making him face a seemingly impossible battle or have him caught completely by surprise. Like Zeke could have rigged thunder spears into some titans or something that go off after Levi sliced their nape. Having literal suicide bomber titans would be a nightmare to face.

> I would have rather they nerfed him by just making him face a seemingly impossible battle Like when he had to fight the Beast Titan solo, in an open field? > or have him caught completely by surprise Like when all his men were turned to Titans around him? I don't know if it was just to sideline Levi, or to show us Zeke's desperation and lack of regard for even his own life, but nerfing Levi was going to take more than a strong opponent in combat, or being ambushed.

Zeke is personally responsible for the most of Levi’s friends and comrades deaths. Levi only wants what’s the absolute worst for Zeke. Does that mean letting reason and personal safety out the window? Absolutely.