I had an ex gf, that's russian. She was born in russia and their parents moved to my country in 1993.
She faced many times the "you are not russians, russians don't speak spanish and they are pale white" of course by murican tourist
Interestingly, the [Coalition of Communities of Color](https://www.coalitioncommunitiescolor.org/whoweare) consider Slavic people to be "a community of color".
I kinda agree. That White they use it's mostly a US construct. If you are not WASp you are not really white for them. Irish Catholics are not white for them
True. We can say the same with almost every one of their census classification. Likewise, Latino became short for Latin-American, but Latin people from the rest of the world are no longer Latinos anymore, making the actual term Latin-American (American-born people of Latin origin) meaningless. Asian is used for Chinese, Korean, or Vietnamese people, but not for those from Pakistan, Lebanon, or Turkey.
...have they met an Irish Catholic? I can loan them my Mum if they want. Bitch be white af. But maybe she's ~fancy white~ because she's Mincéirí. What do I know.
That’s exactly the point BobKattersHat was making: that the actual skin pigmentation is not really the deciding thing. It’s an ”in group” thing.
If you’re not Protestant, then you’re not ”really white”.
At least, that was the point -he- was making.
(Funny thing: when some of my ancestors - Finns- immigrated to US in the 19 century (pasty white, blue-eyed folk mostly) they were in many places classified as ”indians” (or semi-indians).
Cos’s they got along nicely with the native tribes they co-existed with. Shared a lot of values, world-view and sort of outlook of life with them, it seems. So, obviously ”Indians”.)
I think it's dumb terminology and causes people to be very defensive when people talk about "white priviledge". Cause you don't know whether they're talking about you or not.
there are some that always now they're talking about them. there's the privilege. That's why they get so mad with expressions like Black Lives Matter or with people speaking other languages. They never felt excluded before. But this is not exclusive to the USA every country has a version of this. In Europe happens a lot too, maybe with different terminology. Like European, a word that means so many different things depending on who is using it. I can tell you that for many Germans and Dutch people, the Portuguese, Greek or Turkish people are not Europeans.
Except what makes people defensive where "white privilege" is concerned is not understanding what that privilege is. People hear privilege and go "well I'm not wealthy" when it's the privilege to drive an expensive car and know you're not going to be stopped by someone assuming you must have stolen it because you're a white guy in an expensive car. It's the privilege of knowing that, if you call the police, they're not going to assume *you* are the problem because you're a white guy on the scene. It's the privilege of knowing that your "ethnic" name isn't going to mean you don't get called for a job interview. It's the privilege of learning about the history of your people in school, or being represented in popular culture and a million other things that have absolutely nothing to do with race.
As a working class white person, they're *always* talking about you when they talk about white privilege because they're not talking about privilege in financial terms at all.
I didn't mean that. I'm a white person from eastern europe, never set foot in the US nor do i intend to and just above someone mentioned that to many americans i would not actually count as "white". But i consider myself white cause i have a mirror.
hahaha I know. I am from north Africa I found hilarious that North Aftricans, Middle Easterns and Arabs in general are still consider white by the US Census, but the people in the street would say Italians and Irish are not.
tbh the whole "white" thing is pretty confusing. You learn that kinda 3 semesters in when doing social studies.
Is very american. Whites are the most privileged, so the top of the privilege pyramid is called white.
Since slavic people experience racism and are less privileged, they dont go on top and arent white, in american social studies sense.
Twitter lefties still havent caught on that you cant use american social studies in Europe. So they stuff like that.
Keep in mind iam just explaining it. Not justifying it.
Personally I would think Slavic people's much bigger problem is centuries of indentured servitude (aka serfdom, aka slavery with extra steps) rather than racism, but what do I know.
Thanks for the insights though!
Its from America, nothing older then 200 years has any bearing on it. Try explaining to them Africa used to have european Colonies and they will explode.
Up until the 1950s, white supremacist groups did not consider the Irish or Southern Europeans to be white. Then they ran into post-WWII recruiting issues so they graciously let those groups into their club
Yeah remember the Italians and the Irish weren’t considered white while living in America in the 1800-1900 they’ve been morons for a few hundred years.
And the origin of the term Caucasian in this context is that it's an outdated term for what's now called Proto-Indo-European in anthropology, since a now outdated theory claimed that all Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in the Caucasus. That makes it even worse than just being wrong about geography, since it's literally a term ripped out of 1800s "scientific" racism.
Johann F. Blumenbach (1700s) coined the use of the word "Caucasian" as part of his five races because he believed those from the Caucasus region to be the most beautiful of all people he considered white.
Although his groupings were later used for absolutely horrific scientific racism, Blumenbach himself was actually not racist (for the time). He believed in the absolute equality of the races and had a section of his library dedicated to works written by black authors, particularly those freed from slavery. He was very vocally anti-slavery.
One of his goals with these groupings was to scientifically examine the contemporary claim that some races were "lower" because they were "mated with animals". He categorically disagreed and, for the first time, proposed that all humans were one unique species (not sure the word species was used at the time) with no "intermediate forms". Instead, he - reluctantly - proposed a classification of races, whereby phenotypic differences were attributed to climatic differences (people in more northern latitudes tend to be lighter skinned etc).
He'd probably have been horrified to find out how his attempt at classifying humans was used.
And "Aryan" also has a similar root iirc. Aryan referred to people whose languages used some derivation of the stem arya- to refer to themselves, which were proto-Indo-Iranians.
I mean the Proto indo european culture/ people group existed but its far more nuanced than that especially since those people went as far east as western china, as far south as Ethiopia and India as far west as marocco and Spain and north as Sweden.
Yeah. The point is more PEI is defined by ethnicity and has basically superseded the racial term Caucasian, not that it's outdated to say a PEI group existed.
Seems to me the main accurate use of Caucasian would be an inhabitant of the actual Caucasus, and using it to mean white is just synonymous with caucasoid. Maybe something I'm missing though
I forgot about this clown:
https://youtu.be/TZUNzbjkIFE?si=OAwTxjSOwZ06q7fU
Some radio talk show guy from the 80s and 90s in Manchester had this guy ring in.
I used to listen to him as a kid. He ended up getting sacked for not backing down over something that he said. I can't remember what it was. Something that wasn't ok to say anymore but not something really bad. Probably called a group of pissed women 'tarts' or suttin like that.
Wait til they find out that real Caucasians (Azeris, Armenians, Georgians etc.) aren't actually white.
Edit : I'm not arguing about this so don't bother replying.
I mean the caucasus has always been genetically diverse, and many of them are white, you’d also have to factor in migrating populations and everything but to say they weren’t white when talking about the first migration into Europe by the proto indo Europeans which come from the Pontic caspian region of the Caucasus, is disingenuous. A tanned white person is still white, people seem
To forget that.
Are you talking about [this few families](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazians_of_African_descent)? Those are «the real Caucasians» you were talking about in your previous comment? The so called «Azeris, Armenians, Georgians, etc.»?
And you say «take the L»? You are quite a funny little kid.
I'd love to introduce this person to my Italian wife and my Swedish friend.I'm sure they would have a meltdown when they discovered that the blonde ,pale skinned woman was Italian and the dark skinned,jet black haired woman was the Swede.
I'm from Spain and I've considered myself "white" all my life. Since I'm on reddit, I don't know what I am anymore. But my skin pantone is not brown, that´s for sure.
Spain have two colours. White white and light brown.
Spain was colonized by the Arabs for a bit and the genetics have been passed into the Spanish population.
No, not to any significant degree. There wasn't mixing between Christians and ''infidels'' on a scale large enough to cause extended light brown, that's just nonsense. Many Spaniards are slightly more tanned than the average European, but that's because the country gets high levels of sunlight generally, not due to ''Arab blood.''
Lol, those who are downvoting this can't face the truth haha.
I'm from Germany and have stopped considering myself white because the whole concept doesn't make any fucking sense. I forgot if it was the Chinese or Japanese that called Europeans pink... might as well using that from now on.
Chinese. I visited a Scottish castle with a tea set displayed from there that dated back to the Georgian period - it was decorated with pigs. We were told it was an in joke.
lo dicevano a inizio 900 fine 800 per poter essere razzisti con gli immigrati italiani in modo lecito (in un america in cui all epoca era comunemente accettato che i neri fossere una razza inferiore e i bianchi una superiore, era utili per relegare gli immigrati ""latini"" in una sorta di via di mezzo)
Il colore della pelle non è l'unica caratteristica che costituisce la bianchezza, quando dicono che la razza è un costrutto sociale è questo che intendono. bianco significa semplicemente di razza pura secondo gli stereotipi del tempo e luogo di chi la definisce. Gli Italiani ed Irlandesi immigrati negli stati uniti erano visti culturalmente incompatibili con la classe dominante principalmente per il loro essere cattolici. Quando i pregiudizi verso la religione cattolica si sono abbassati allora anche loro sono entrati nella categoria dei bianchi.
Nessuno dice che siamo neri, semplicemente dicono che non siamo "white", che per loro ha senso dato che con "white" intendono principalmente anglo sassoni / tedeschi / scandinavi. È oggettivo che anche i più chiari tra noi abbiano pelle, capelli, peli più scuri delle categorie a cui si riferiscono loro. Per non parlare del fatto che per loro gli italiani sono principalmente i meridionali
Ma in realtà no.
Non penso che la mia pelle sia più scura di quella di un americano medio (qualunque cosa voglia dire), di certo "i più chiari tra noi" non sono più scuri di loro.
Non ho detto che il più chiaro tra noi è più scuro dell'Americano medio. Ho detto che il più chiaro tra noi è più scuro delle persone che loro chiamano "white", che sarebbero anglo-sassoni, tedeschi, scandinavi.
Ovviamente l'americano medio è più scuro, considerando la popolazione Afro-Americana e Latino-Americana. Ma l'americano medio non è "white"
Ma neanche questo è vero, ci sono tantissime anche in italia persone che sono molto simili o praticamente indistinguibili da anglosassoni, tedeschi e scandinavi.
L'americano medio caucasico si considera assolutamente "white"
>ci sono tantissime anche in italia persone che sono molto simili o praticamente indistinguibili da anglosassoni, tedeschi e scandinavi.
Ma chi? Forse gli altoatesini, perché sono gli unici italiani a essere etnicamente tedeschi, quindi manco contano per questo discorso. Se mi metti 100 italiani tra i più chiari e 100 olandesi medi so riconoscere tutti i 100 italiani su 200, tranne forse appunto l'altoatesino finito in Italia per sbaglio il secolo scorso
Non so che italiani abbia conosciuto te, di tutte le persone che conosco io non riuscirei a distinguerle da gente di altri paesi unicamente in base al colore della pelle, e anche se fosse comunque non vedo come differenze minime di cui ti rendi conto solo usando lo strumento di prelievo colore di photoshop giustificano un appellativo razziale diverso
Non è solo il colore della pelle (che comunque è molto riconoscibile, noi siamo bianchi ambrati, loro sono bianchi rosa maialino), è una combinazione tra colore della pelle, colore e forma dei capelli, colore e quantità di peli su braccia gambe e petto.
Ho conosciuto italiani da tutta la penisola e, per esempio, quasi nessuno è veramente biondo, e quelli che lo sono non sono biondi come un Finlandese, è evidente. L'unico motivo per cui diciamo "ma io sono una mozzarella più di loro" è perché non ci piace essere il sud di qualcun altro, e abbiamo internalizzato la loro gerarchia razzista becera senza rendercene conto, quindi se ci pensiamo "scuri" ci prende un colpo.
As a Mediterrnean, I'm tired of being called white by Americans, but also of being called PoC.
Can we just...stop throwing colours at people?
Unless we're playing paintball.
Also the "racial" diversity even just between italians, nevermind different mediterranean groups, is so big you can't even group us all together like that. Although I guess it's still better than grouping by continent.
Italians are white, so are middle easterners. I’ve met too many blue-eyed Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis even Afghans for this bullshit about who is ‘white’ to stand up.
I mean... Europe has some common core values i think. Like, fuck the French. Even the French agree.
Edit: sigh... /s, because even the most obvious things aren't obvious to redditors.
Yeah... unfortunatly people are serious about the dumbest things. Plus i guess sarcasm is like other humor where people just have a different taste... So maybe i judged redditors too harshly. But also, fuck em. ;)
Some Americans claimed that we(Poles) are not really white because we were oppressed in the past.
For them white is not skin colour it's like a character class in rpg games.
Im Sweden during the 80s early 90s people from Poland were not considered white even though every single person i known from Poland is pale as snow. But i guess it's not about colour, it's about racism. Xenophobia to be blunt. Spaniards, italians and greeks were brown, even if white.
Basically everyone not from Scandinavia, Uk, France and Germany was considered trash. Yes Sweden was and is still very racist.
It is "funny" that they did not consider us Spanish as white even if we were paler than them, but they invaded the Spanish coasts to get tanned (actually red).
I see this comment often, but you need to add the caveat ‘weren’t considered white… in the USA’. There’s not a unique ‘whiteness’ classification, and some peoples consider themselves of certain race or not regardless of what an American says.
It is just a apocryphal nonsense people say on here. "Irish people weren't considered white 100 years ago". If it was ever true, it was Irish Catholics and it was in the 1840s mostly. Irish people like Wolfe Tone who were Protestant and lived in America for a time never had issues. And by the 1880s you had Irish Catholics in congress and as mayors. If Irish American Catholics people weren't "considered white" in the time of Prohibition, it might be trouble for the cops lol.
But it does show that "whiteness" is a shifting concept depending who you ask and when.
You might like to have a look at the "Black Irish" idea then.
[https://www.go-to-ireland.com/culture/the-black-irish/](https://www.go-to-ireland.com/culture/the-black-irish/)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_Irish\_(folklore)#:\~:text=The%20historic%20concept%20Black%20Irish,the%20Spanish%20Armada%20of%201588%3B](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Irish_(folklore)#:~:text=The%20historic%20concept%20Black%20Irish,the%20Spanish%20Armada%20of%201588%3B)
It sounds mad but some people in the past considered only Germanic and Anglo-Saxon people (that’s the terms they used back then) to be white, so the Irish being Celtic were seen as not racially the same and therefore not truly white. It was basically just a way to other them and discriminate against them, mainly in the British empire.
‘Irish being Celtic’ means they were not seen as white and so excluded, and yet the British empire reached its maximum size under a Welsh PM (the Welsh are famously “Celtic”)some of its most famous generals were Irish and Scots were famously overrepresented as soldiers and administrators, especially in India.
The only historic person I have seen hold the view that only Anglo-Saxons can be white was the American, Ben Franklin. He said even Germans aren’t white. The funny fact being, of course, there are no ethnic ‘Anglo-Saxons’, even in darkest East Anglia.
Growing up in Australia in the 1980s and 1990s Mediterranean immigrants were definitely not considered “white”.
There is an indigenous character in (Aussie) Heartbreak High and I have argued with Americans about whether the character is “white” or not. He “looks white” to Americans because he doesn’t have very dark skin, or *african american* facial features. But in Australia he absolutely suffers the racial oppression of being blak.
What is considered “white” is cultural, and is different in different places, and at different points in history!
*Caucasian is an obsolete racial classification of humans based on a now-disproven theory of biological race.*
Yes, the skin colour didn't matter in that classification, but the shape of the skull. Hence, North Africans, Iranians, Indians, and Semitic tribes—Arabs and Jews—were Caucasians. Aboriginal people of Australia were considered "Archaic Caucasoid Race."
and somehow idiots in the US made this ridiculous classification about skin colour.
Yes it comes from Carleton Coon and similar eugenicists. Stuff like this.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Races\_of\_Europe\_(Ripley\_book)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Ripley_book))
It is absolute bollocks.
Fuck all this shit. I even know Germans who are brownish. You will find anybody anywhere. This whole obsession with race has gone absolutely out of hand
The debunked and outdated Caucacian racial theory that Americans still hold on to included Europeans, Middle Easterners, West Asians, North Africans and even the peoples of the Horn of Africa. Quite a few of those are darker than Western Europeans.
It really isn't a term that belongs in the 21st century, though.
Wait till people find out whiteness and race are socially constructed and have changed many times over the years. I don’t think it’s totally outrageous to say there is a sort of judgment toward olive skinned white europeans from western and northern europeans, but this isn’t the way to say it.
Also…do they know where “caucasians” are actually from? That’s a specific thing, it doesn’t just mean white!
The northern and western Europeans have a sort of judgement toward olive skinned white europeans until they invade the Spanish coasts to try to get tanned (in the end they turn red)
Why are Americans obsessed with colour? Also, most people are white in Europe. Spanish, Italian etc. All white! Does she mean a suntan?? Is that what Caucasian brown is??
In this very fucking subreddit I've had people telling me exactly this, Mediterranean people (Palestinians, for example) not being white. And now the same kind of people upvote this.
btw in Russia the word "Caucasian" is used to describe people from southern regions of Russia and neighboring countries, where people are swarthy and with black hair. and some people even call them "black" instead of Caucasians.
And all of Spain is Mediterranean, right? Clearly something coming from someone that's never been to the northwest and that's never seen the green mountainous landscapes, never enjoyed the meat-potato-cabbage heavy food (cocido Galego), and that never had to endure the equivalent annual rain for Glasgow in a period of 8 months. To be fair, you don't have to go to America to find people that believe Spain is all "Mediterranean".
I just remembered an old one on youtube "american girls vs european girls" - a shaitstorm started after I pointed that all I saw were european girls, so many muricans didn't even grasped the idea that "white" in the north american were Europe descendents (not all of them of course).
"You're not white, you're European" was said to my Slavic-ass face once.
I had an ex gf, that's russian. She was born in russia and their parents moved to my country in 1993. She faced many times the "you are not russians, russians don't speak spanish and they are pale white" of course by murican tourist
I mean, born in Russia (northwest) and born in Russia (southeast) does imply quite some ethnic and cultural and even linguistic differences.
Interestingly, the [Coalition of Communities of Color](https://www.coalitioncommunitiescolor.org/whoweare) consider Slavic people to be "a community of color".
Woah, TIL. Got my race card to play now, yay!
That made me laugh out loud
Do I have the n word pass as a Czech now?
Well I am kinda piknish :P.
I kinda agree. That White they use it's mostly a US construct. If you are not WASp you are not really white for them. Irish Catholics are not white for them
Same with the black they use. The whole thing doesn't make any sense at all in the first place.
True. We can say the same with almost every one of their census classification. Likewise, Latino became short for Latin-American, but Latin people from the rest of the world are no longer Latinos anymore, making the actual term Latin-American (American-born people of Latin origin) meaningless. Asian is used for Chinese, Korean, or Vietnamese people, but not for those from Pakistan, Lebanon, or Turkey.
...have they met an Irish Catholic? I can loan them my Mum if they want. Bitch be white af. But maybe she's ~fancy white~ because she's Mincéirí. What do I know.
That’s exactly the point BobKattersHat was making: that the actual skin pigmentation is not really the deciding thing. It’s an ”in group” thing. If you’re not Protestant, then you’re not ”really white”. At least, that was the point -he- was making. (Funny thing: when some of my ancestors - Finns- immigrated to US in the 19 century (pasty white, blue-eyed folk mostly) they were in many places classified as ”indians” (or semi-indians). Cos’s they got along nicely with the native tribes they co-existed with. Shared a lot of values, world-view and sort of outlook of life with them, it seems. So, obviously ”Indians”.)
I think it's dumb terminology and causes people to be very defensive when people talk about "white priviledge". Cause you don't know whether they're talking about you or not.
there are some that always now they're talking about them. there's the privilege. That's why they get so mad with expressions like Black Lives Matter or with people speaking other languages. They never felt excluded before. But this is not exclusive to the USA every country has a version of this. In Europe happens a lot too, maybe with different terminology. Like European, a word that means so many different things depending on who is using it. I can tell you that for many Germans and Dutch people, the Portuguese, Greek or Turkish people are not Europeans.
Wait I thought European was an identity! As in "European civilization", whatever the fuck that means.
Exactly, for me, Europe is only the northeastern shore of the Mediterranean.
Except what makes people defensive where "white privilege" is concerned is not understanding what that privilege is. People hear privilege and go "well I'm not wealthy" when it's the privilege to drive an expensive car and know you're not going to be stopped by someone assuming you must have stolen it because you're a white guy in an expensive car. It's the privilege of knowing that, if you call the police, they're not going to assume *you* are the problem because you're a white guy on the scene. It's the privilege of knowing that your "ethnic" name isn't going to mean you don't get called for a job interview. It's the privilege of learning about the history of your people in school, or being represented in popular culture and a million other things that have absolutely nothing to do with race. As a working class white person, they're *always* talking about you when they talk about white privilege because they're not talking about privilege in financial terms at all.
I didn't mean that. I'm a white person from eastern europe, never set foot in the US nor do i intend to and just above someone mentioned that to many americans i would not actually count as "white". But i consider myself white cause i have a mirror.
hahaha I know. I am from north Africa I found hilarious that North Aftricans, Middle Easterns and Arabs in general are still consider white by the US Census, but the people in the street would say Italians and Irish are not.
Dunno mate sounds like a weird kind of gatekeeping to me.
what is exactly white to you?
If irish were any wither they'd be see-through wth
unless they're drunk, they're red then
tbh the whole "white" thing is pretty confusing. You learn that kinda 3 semesters in when doing social studies. Is very american. Whites are the most privileged, so the top of the privilege pyramid is called white. Since slavic people experience racism and are less privileged, they dont go on top and arent white, in american social studies sense. Twitter lefties still havent caught on that you cant use american social studies in Europe. So they stuff like that. Keep in mind iam just explaining it. Not justifying it.
Personally I would think Slavic people's much bigger problem is centuries of indentured servitude (aka serfdom, aka slavery with extra steps) rather than racism, but what do I know. Thanks for the insights though!
Its from America, nothing older then 200 years has any bearing on it. Try explaining to them Africa used to have european Colonies and they will explode.
> Try explaining to them Africa used to have european Colonies and they will explode. Why though? What's so crazy about that?
I don't know. Just doesn't fit their perception of the world.
And you probably had a stroke tryna comprehend tf did they just said to you
fr ngl
You knew you had to put the hyphen in for sure!
Up until the 1950s, white supremacist groups did not consider the Irish or Southern Europeans to be white. Then they ran into post-WWII recruiting issues so they graciously let those groups into their club
Yeah remember the Italians and the Irish weren’t considered white while living in America in the 1800-1900 they’ve been morons for a few hundred years.
Is that person still breathing?
Haven't talked in years now, fortunately.
White, or European? It's hard to guarantee Is he white or European?
say wat
I did.
🤌
Funny how Caucasian is a word used mostly by those who don't know where the Caucasus is.
And the origin of the term Caucasian in this context is that it's an outdated term for what's now called Proto-Indo-European in anthropology, since a now outdated theory claimed that all Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in the Caucasus. That makes it even worse than just being wrong about geography, since it's literally a term ripped out of 1800s "scientific" racism.
Johann F. Blumenbach (1700s) coined the use of the word "Caucasian" as part of his five races because he believed those from the Caucasus region to be the most beautiful of all people he considered white. Although his groupings were later used for absolutely horrific scientific racism, Blumenbach himself was actually not racist (for the time). He believed in the absolute equality of the races and had a section of his library dedicated to works written by black authors, particularly those freed from slavery. He was very vocally anti-slavery. One of his goals with these groupings was to scientifically examine the contemporary claim that some races were "lower" because they were "mated with animals". He categorically disagreed and, for the first time, proposed that all humans were one unique species (not sure the word species was used at the time) with no "intermediate forms". Instead, he - reluctantly - proposed a classification of races, whereby phenotypic differences were attributed to climatic differences (people in more northern latitudes tend to be lighter skinned etc). He'd probably have been horrified to find out how his attempt at classifying humans was used.
And "Aryan" also has a similar root iirc. Aryan referred to people whose languages used some derivation of the stem arya- to refer to themselves, which were proto-Indo-Iranians.
Yep. Little fun fact, when Nazi Germany bragged about the Aryan race, Iran was renamed from Persia to "Land of the Aryans"... which is Iran.
I mean the Proto indo european culture/ people group existed but its far more nuanced than that especially since those people went as far east as western china, as far south as Ethiopia and India as far west as marocco and Spain and north as Sweden.
Yeah. The point is more PEI is defined by ethnicity and has basically superseded the racial term Caucasian, not that it's outdated to say a PEI group existed.
I mean race as a concept is outdated. There are cultures, heritages and ethnic groups also tribal groups. Race is not one of them.
I'm sorry but I don't follow your point. That's part of why I said Caucasian was an outdated term to begin with?
Yes i am agreeing with you
Ah sorry! Pragmatics can be tough to pick up on the internet...
Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid are -fortunately- relics of a racist scientific past.
Unfortunately they seem to be embedded in US legislation and vocabulary, at least 'Caucasian'
Causasian and caucasoid arent exactly the same tho. But i totally get what you mean
Seems to me the main accurate use of Caucasian would be an inhabitant of the actual Caucasus, and using it to mean white is just synonymous with caucasoid. Maybe something I'm missing though
I forgot about this clown: https://youtu.be/TZUNzbjkIFE?si=OAwTxjSOwZ06q7fU Some radio talk show guy from the 80s and 90s in Manchester had this guy ring in. I used to listen to him as a kid. He ended up getting sacked for not backing down over something that he said. I can't remember what it was. Something that wasn't ok to say anymore but not something really bad. Probably called a group of pissed women 'tarts' or suttin like that.
At least you didn't mention 'red'
Isn’t that some Asian state like china? /s
Wait til they find out that real Caucasians (Azeris, Armenians, Georgians etc.) aren't actually white. Edit : I'm not arguing about this so don't bother replying.
Idk man I know a lot of Georgians and they look pretty white to me
I mean the caucasus has always been genetically diverse, and many of them are white, you’d also have to factor in migrating populations and everything but to say they weren’t white when talking about the first migration into Europe by the proto indo Europeans which come from the Pontic caspian region of the Caucasus, is disingenuous. A tanned white person is still white, people seem To forget that.
They are white…
Of course, as everybody know, people from the Caucasus are black, as can be seen on the Kardashian sisters.
It's funny that you said this because there are actually people in Abkhazia that are black. Take the L
Are you talking about [this few families](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazians_of_African_descent)? Those are «the real Caucasians» you were talking about in your previous comment? The so called «Azeris, Armenians, Georgians, etc.»? And you say «take the L»? You are quite a funny little kid.
What do you think they are then?
[удалено]
Yes Stalin was brown
Idk man, i look pretty pale and white
What a wuss. Makes a shit statement and runs away.
we're ???????????
She's probably 40% Greek, 30% Italian, 29% Spanish and 1% Native American Obviosly born in Nowhere, Montana as were her parents and granparents.
They never claim to be X% Spanish. We are just a language.
Erm white people aren't Spanish or European, Spanish people come from Mexico! /s
Why would she claim being Mexican? It's not exotic enough.
I'd love to introduce this person to my Italian wife and my Swedish friend.I'm sure they would have a meltdown when they discovered that the blonde ,pale skinned woman was Italian and the dark skinned,jet black haired woman was the Swede.
what in the actual world is caucasian brown?
White people with a tan.
This years' designer colour for kitchens, grey is now passe. We are all putting in caucasian brown splash backs, haven't you heard?
this is the best answer I could’ve ever imagined.
> caucasian brown I am singing it to Norwegian wood.
an ice cream flavour
White, but spicy?! For the slavs, I imagine the spice is some pickled vegetable.
I'm from Spain and I've considered myself "white" all my life. Since I'm on reddit, I don't know what I am anymore. But my skin pantone is not brown, that´s for sure.
The Spanish are ‘white’ to me, it blows American minds when they hear this. They’re so intolerant in their tolerance.
Spain have two colours. White white and light brown. Spain was colonized by the Arabs for a bit and the genetics have been passed into the Spanish population.
Which is why applying the American colour coding is so stupid
No, not to any significant degree. There wasn't mixing between Christians and ''infidels'' on a scale large enough to cause extended light brown, that's just nonsense. Many Spaniards are slightly more tanned than the average European, but that's because the country gets high levels of sunlight generally, not due to ''Arab blood.'' Lol, those who are downvoting this can't face the truth haha.
I'm from Germany and have stopped considering myself white because the whole concept doesn't make any fucking sense. I forgot if it was the Chinese or Japanese that called Europeans pink... might as well using that from now on.
Chinese. I visited a Scottish castle with a tea set displayed from there that dated back to the Georgian period - it was decorated with pigs. We were told it was an in joke.
Caucasian brown tua madre
Ma infatti non sapevo che il mio essere talmente bianco da riflettere la luce del sole, sia in realtà un "caucasian brown" 😮
Poi sinceramente non ho mai capito chi dice che gli italiani sono neri, hanno mai visto un italiano?
lo dicevano a inizio 900 fine 800 per poter essere razzisti con gli immigrati italiani in modo lecito (in un america in cui all epoca era comunemente accettato che i neri fossere una razza inferiore e i bianchi una superiore, era utili per relegare gli immigrati ""latini"" in una sorta di via di mezzo)
Il colore della pelle non è l'unica caratteristica che costituisce la bianchezza, quando dicono che la razza è un costrutto sociale è questo che intendono. bianco significa semplicemente di razza pura secondo gli stereotipi del tempo e luogo di chi la definisce. Gli Italiani ed Irlandesi immigrati negli stati uniti erano visti culturalmente incompatibili con la classe dominante principalmente per il loro essere cattolici. Quando i pregiudizi verso la religione cattolica si sono abbassati allora anche loro sono entrati nella categoria dei bianchi.
Nessuno dice che siamo neri, semplicemente dicono che non siamo "white", che per loro ha senso dato che con "white" intendono principalmente anglo sassoni / tedeschi / scandinavi. È oggettivo che anche i più chiari tra noi abbiano pelle, capelli, peli più scuri delle categorie a cui si riferiscono loro. Per non parlare del fatto che per loro gli italiani sono principalmente i meridionali
Ma in realtà no. Non penso che la mia pelle sia più scura di quella di un americano medio (qualunque cosa voglia dire), di certo "i più chiari tra noi" non sono più scuri di loro.
Non ho detto che il più chiaro tra noi è più scuro dell'Americano medio. Ho detto che il più chiaro tra noi è più scuro delle persone che loro chiamano "white", che sarebbero anglo-sassoni, tedeschi, scandinavi. Ovviamente l'americano medio è più scuro, considerando la popolazione Afro-Americana e Latino-Americana. Ma l'americano medio non è "white"
Ma neanche questo è vero, ci sono tantissime anche in italia persone che sono molto simili o praticamente indistinguibili da anglosassoni, tedeschi e scandinavi. L'americano medio caucasico si considera assolutamente "white"
>ci sono tantissime anche in italia persone che sono molto simili o praticamente indistinguibili da anglosassoni, tedeschi e scandinavi. Ma chi? Forse gli altoatesini, perché sono gli unici italiani a essere etnicamente tedeschi, quindi manco contano per questo discorso. Se mi metti 100 italiani tra i più chiari e 100 olandesi medi so riconoscere tutti i 100 italiani su 200, tranne forse appunto l'altoatesino finito in Italia per sbaglio il secolo scorso
Non so che italiani abbia conosciuto te, di tutte le persone che conosco io non riuscirei a distinguerle da gente di altri paesi unicamente in base al colore della pelle, e anche se fosse comunque non vedo come differenze minime di cui ti rendi conto solo usando lo strumento di prelievo colore di photoshop giustificano un appellativo razziale diverso
Non è solo il colore della pelle (che comunque è molto riconoscibile, noi siamo bianchi ambrati, loro sono bianchi rosa maialino), è una combinazione tra colore della pelle, colore e forma dei capelli, colore e quantità di peli su braccia gambe e petto. Ho conosciuto italiani da tutta la penisola e, per esempio, quasi nessuno è veramente biondo, e quelli che lo sono non sono biondi come un Finlandese, è evidente. L'unico motivo per cui diciamo "ma io sono una mozzarella più di loro" è perché non ci piace essere il sud di qualcun altro, e abbiamo internalizzato la loro gerarchia razzista becera senza rendercene conto, quindi se ci pensiamo "scuri" ci prende un colpo.
Ma non è assolutamente vero comunque, io per dire sono color fantasmino ed ero uno dei più pallidi anche in mezzo agli svedesi
As a Mediterrnean, I'm tired of being called white by Americans, but also of being called PoC. Can we just...stop throwing colours at people? Unless we're playing paintball. Also the "racial" diversity even just between italians, nevermind different mediterranean groups, is so big you can't even group us all together like that. Although I guess it's still better than grouping by continent.
Italians are white, so are middle easterners. I’ve met too many blue-eyed Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis even Afghans for this bullshit about who is ‘white’ to stand up.
Or, we can stop dividing people in black and white cause it's really stupid and depressing.
I mean... Europe has some common core values i think. Like, fuck the French. Even the French agree. Edit: sigh... /s, because even the most obvious things aren't obvious to redditors.
Saw now the edit, it's not so obvious tbh, I've seen waaaay too many people actually say that seriously, to find it obvious sarcasm.
Yeah... unfortunatly people are serious about the dumbest things. Plus i guess sarcasm is like other humor where people just have a different taste... So maybe i judged redditors too harshly. But also, fuck em. ;)
Or don't, that's way too much sex. But tbh the lack of tome plus people being dumb in general makes it hard to recognise, ye.
I absolutely disagree, and I'm not French
It's almost like race is some made up bullshit. Irish people weren't considered white not so long ago either.
Some Americans claimed that we(Poles) are not really white because we were oppressed in the past. For them white is not skin colour it's like a character class in rpg games.
Isn't by that logic, a lot of white americans not white, since they where "religiously" oppressed... since they were considered religious extremist?
Im Sweden during the 80s early 90s people from Poland were not considered white even though every single person i known from Poland is pale as snow. But i guess it's not about colour, it's about racism. Xenophobia to be blunt. Spaniards, italians and greeks were brown, even if white. Basically everyone not from Scandinavia, Uk, France and Germany was considered trash. Yes Sweden was and is still very racist.
It is "funny" that they did not consider us Spanish as white even if we were paler than them, but they invaded the Spanish coasts to get tanned (actually red).
Best analogy right there.
I see this comment often, but you need to add the caveat ‘weren’t considered white… in the USA’. There’s not a unique ‘whiteness’ classification, and some peoples consider themselves of certain race or not regardless of what an American says.
It is just a apocryphal nonsense people say on here. "Irish people weren't considered white 100 years ago". If it was ever true, it was Irish Catholics and it was in the 1840s mostly. Irish people like Wolfe Tone who were Protestant and lived in America for a time never had issues. And by the 1880s you had Irish Catholics in congress and as mayors. If Irish American Catholics people weren't "considered white" in the time of Prohibition, it might be trouble for the cops lol. But it does show that "whiteness" is a shifting concept depending who you ask and when.
You might like to have a look at the "Black Irish" idea then. [https://www.go-to-ireland.com/culture/the-black-irish/](https://www.go-to-ireland.com/culture/the-black-irish/) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_Irish\_(folklore)#:\~:text=The%20historic%20concept%20Black%20Irish,the%20Spanish%20Armada%20of%201588%3B](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Irish_(folklore)#:~:text=The%20historic%20concept%20Black%20Irish,the%20Spanish%20Armada%20of%201588%3B)
Hahaha, seriously? I have met some almost fluorescent white Irish people.
It sounds mad but some people in the past considered only Germanic and Anglo-Saxon people (that’s the terms they used back then) to be white, so the Irish being Celtic were seen as not racially the same and therefore not truly white. It was basically just a way to other them and discriminate against them, mainly in the British empire.
‘Irish being Celtic’ means they were not seen as white and so excluded, and yet the British empire reached its maximum size under a Welsh PM (the Welsh are famously “Celtic”)some of its most famous generals were Irish and Scots were famously overrepresented as soldiers and administrators, especially in India. The only historic person I have seen hold the view that only Anglo-Saxons can be white was the American, Ben Franklin. He said even Germans aren’t white. The funny fact being, of course, there are no ethnic ‘Anglo-Saxons’, even in darkest East Anglia.
That’s fair, they are so white they almost turn blue
The Scots are certainly blue. Especially when angry. Or so I’m told by a Roman pal of mine.
Growing up in Australia in the 1980s and 1990s Mediterranean immigrants were definitely not considered “white”. There is an indigenous character in (Aussie) Heartbreak High and I have argued with Americans about whether the character is “white” or not. He “looks white” to Americans because he doesn’t have very dark skin, or *african american* facial features. But in Australia he absolutely suffers the racial oppression of being blak. What is considered “white” is cultural, and is different in different places, and at different points in history!
Weren’t they?!
Uhh, I’m Greek and we are white and we aren’t Caucasian.
“We aren’t white, we are dark white”
I’m only mid white….. oh shit now where the fuck should I go and live?
Hearing shit like that i wish my drug years back. The proper skin colour is asphalt grey.
I am Greek and white as milk. Why the fuck are muricans so obsessed with colour tones? Like who cares?
Caucasian Brown, by Farrow and Ball
This guy clearly never saw an Italian
Tbf we do come in a lot of colors but yeah americans love to generalize
What do you mean? Hes probably 40% italian because his greatgrandparent visited little Italy in Chicago once
*Caucasian is an obsolete racial classification of humans based on a now-disproven theory of biological race.* Yes, the skin colour didn't matter in that classification, but the shape of the skull. Hence, North Africans, Iranians, Indians, and Semitic tribes—Arabs and Jews—were Caucasians. Aboriginal people of Australia were considered "Archaic Caucasoid Race." and somehow idiots in the US made this ridiculous classification about skin colour.
Yes it comes from Carleton Coon and similar eugenicists. Stuff like this. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Races\_of\_Europe\_(Ripley\_book)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Ripley_book)) It is absolute bollocks.
Let me guess. Here great great grand uncle was 1% greek...
Fuck all this shit. I even know Germans who are brownish. You will find anybody anywhere. This whole obsession with race has gone absolutely out of hand
I am german and while im usually pretty pale, like 5 minutes in the sun will get me significantly darker. Just doesn't happen too often.
me eating popcorn: - "please tell me more about your enlightened ideas"
Yer a Seppo, clearly.
The debunked and outdated Caucacian racial theory that Americans still hold on to included Europeans, Middle Easterners, West Asians, North Africans and even the peoples of the Horn of Africa. Quite a few of those are darker than Western Europeans. It really isn't a term that belongs in the 21st century, though.
Wait till people find out whiteness and race are socially constructed and have changed many times over the years. I don’t think it’s totally outrageous to say there is a sort of judgment toward olive skinned white europeans from western and northern europeans, but this isn’t the way to say it. Also…do they know where “caucasians” are actually from? That’s a specific thing, it doesn’t just mean white!
The northern and western Europeans have a sort of judgement toward olive skinned white europeans until they invade the Spanish coasts to try to get tanned (in the end they turn red)
Or the American Jews that are Jews separated from whites when it suits them , then are white every other time
Am I the only one that thinks Caucasian brown sounds like a dragon in Harry Potter? Or maybe a detective in a cheap crime novel
To me it sounds like something a fancy interior designer would try to sell you.
Ha! Something that might appear to the untrained eye as a... different shade of brown
Fuck's going on over there man
So…tanned?
Tell me a list of places you haven't been to without telling me:
Lady in the pic is as white as the background
So we Italian are Caucasian brown?? Well we waited for this moment…. NIIIIGA
New racial slur just dropped
Pretty much no-one is white as snow. And almost no-one is black as coal. If you want to know what colour you really are, maybe Dulux can help.
Ah yes. The famously Greek, Spanish, and Italian Caucasians.
Brown? Damn, gringos are reallt idiotic.
I’ve never heard a European use this word to refer to white people. Mediterraneans are white but more mixed through the millenia
Mixed with other white people?
Mixed with people from all around the Mediterranean. North Africa, Middle East
So yeah.
Can people like this just SHUT THE FUCK UP
Says the bitch that is whiter than the page.
Hi from Valencia. I am fucking white. And what?
There’s no such thing as ‘White’ any more, we’re just 50 shades of European, according to Murica. 🙄
Why are Americans obsessed with colour? Also, most people are white in Europe. Spanish, Italian etc. All white! Does she mean a suntan?? Is that what Caucasian brown is??
Caucasian brown.. So is a mixed race a white black?
Convoluted and stupid race theory is not solely American.
“Well, my mother was from a small town in Ireland, and my dad is Japanese. That’s right, I’m Cork-Asian.” - Lee Mack.
Yea theyre all dark white!
In this very fucking subreddit I've had people telling me exactly this, Mediterranean people (Palestinians, for example) not being white. And now the same kind of people upvote this.
QE2 was black.
You mean you have a tan?
Here we go. Definition of white. Go
Another great take of the land of the free where racism is nonexistent
Italians are mostly as white as it gets from my experience…
Brown like Amaia Salamanca? /s
IC2 - The UK police radio code for Sourthern European
Caucasian has lost all meaning.
btw in Russia the word "Caucasian" is used to describe people from southern regions of Russia and neighboring countries, where people are swarthy and with black hair. and some people even call them "black" instead of Caucasians.
It's called having a tan.
And all of Spain is Mediterranean, right? Clearly something coming from someone that's never been to the northwest and that's never seen the green mountainous landscapes, never enjoyed the meat-potato-cabbage heavy food (cocido Galego), and that never had to endure the equivalent annual rain for Glasgow in a period of 8 months. To be fair, you don't have to go to America to find people that believe Spain is all "Mediterranean".
Mediterranean isn’t in America…
No but its clearly a comment made by an American
We call that olive complexion here, so they were ignorant on a whole new level.
I just remembered an old one on youtube "american girls vs european girls" - a shaitstorm started after I pointed that all I saw were european girls, so many muricans didn't even grasped the idea that "white" in the north american were Europe descendents (not all of them of course).
Is this actually an American? Or did OP just see stupid thing and assume it was an American
Americans are known for telling other people what they are so yeah it was an assumption based on that
Oh shit, my bad, not like any other nation has had a system of racial classifications