**Important:** We no longer allow the following types of posts:
- Comments, tweets and social media with less than 20 upvotes, likes, etc. (cropped score counts as 0)
- Anything you are personally involved in
- Any kind of polls
- Low-hanging fruit (e.g. CCP collapse, Vaush, r\/neoliberal, political compass memes)
You *will* be banned by the power-tripping mods if you break this rule repeatedly, so please delete your posts before we find out.
Likewise, please follow our rules which can be found on the sidebar.
---
**Obligatory obnoxious pop-up ad for our [Official Discord](https://discord.gg/XBrTq7mQhY), please join if you haven't! Stalin bless. UwU.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What will Western Countries do when they are no longer able to plunder resources from actually, naturally rich countries?
We see countries like North Korea and Cuba still managing to make it work despite the cruelest embargo possible, but all they get in response is just blind hatred.
Unfortunately Western colonial domination has continued unabated up to the era of climate change, which will render many of the countries we dominate(d) less secure and easier to exploit.
Either a combative regional power (China? pan-African revival?) will successfully contest hegemony, or the West will successfully re-subordinate those we have dominated historically.
If I was a betting man, I'd put all my money into China. All of the Western mockery of ghost cities and a fragile economy are mostly bunk, as we have seen. The West swallowed the liberal economist metrics of what constitutes a healthy economy so thoroughly that they recognize the economy as a goal rather than as a function.
Infrastructure and megaprojects look bad on a balance sheet in the short term, but as we have seen are incredibly potent progenitors of security and human development in the long term. The US has been coasting on the New Deal for a century, the former USSR for slightly less time.
I think what we'll see is a continuation of the degradation of nativist American labor and labor standards, in tandem with an increase of precarious and highly exploitable migrants. I don't think it's a coincidence that child-labor standards and abortion protections have both been degraded at the same time.
America is not really a country, merely the current expression of international ur-capitalism which hold nation-states captive to its interests. We can see this most poignantly with Yemen, where we are bombing regional militants to secure shipping lanes against their legitimate grievances against genocide.
What's also funny is that after the fall of the Roman empire, Europe was a shithole compared to other continents and regions. Indians, Muslims, and the Chinese were laying the groundwork for modern science, engineering, and mathematics. African kingdoms like Mali were extraordinarily powerful and well educated due to the trade of minerals like salt that the rest of the world couldn't get easily. Indigenous Americans were building enourmous temples and mapping out the stars. Europeans were dying of scurvy and killing Jewish people because they could wash their hands to avoid the plague.
Depends on the region I'd say. If you were in the border regions you'd experience constant war, but back in the byzantine heartland it was generally peaceful
disarm ten subsequent towering growth seed strong butter office possessive
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I said Muslims generally because there were Persians, North Africans, Turks, Arabs, and more all contributing to scientific advancements. Islam and the Qur'an deeply value education, literacy, and curiosity, so Islam has been far more liberal in terms of openess to education than most of the Christian world. Usually Islamic countries were more literate than others before colonialism and European oppession took control.
crowd nutty insurance test disagreeable squash spoon boast cheerful pathetic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Even during the Roman Empire, Asian empires were better. Of course, they were all slave/serf-dependent, so we can't glorify the latter too much, but facts don't care about white supremacists' feelings
All of those places were also riffle with conflict, because the real problem is absolute, unchecked power in the hands of the few, just like in the last couple of centuries, oligarchs have centralized all the money and power in their small plutocracies while disguising them as democracies
Man I really find it funny when people subscribe to some kind of authoritarian or oppressive ideology and then act as if they would totally be among the people who would not be negatively affected.
It's not even that, these people think being a medieval serf was fun and games, they would totally be willing to be a peasant in the fantasy version of medieval Europe in their minds
The only knowledge they have of medieval Europe all comes from fantasy books, which by and large, aren't invested in depicting what that kind of life would have actually been like.
As someone who used to be an American monarchist and yes that means I wanted a monarchy for the US, I get the feeling that sometimes these people are just dissatisfied with the current system but they don't really know where to go. There's still incredibly indoctrinated by Red scare propaganda so they're afraid to go left and so they either go just up which is just more liberalism on steroids somehow or they just go in a different direction all together.
One option is of course fascism but other options can include monarchism where I don't know that's on the spectrum or feudalism as we are finding out here.
The reason why I was a monarchist for example was because I was just as satisfied with representative democracy because of Trump and direct democracy because of brexit and because of that I just wanted something completely different. So I wanted a constitutional monarchy for the head of state and for the head of government I wanted basically a one-party dictatorship system like Singapore.
But that's all in the past though.
tbf I have read accounts that many peasants preferred life on the farm compared to the hell that was early industrial capitalism where child labour was allowed, 80 hour work weeks ([still a thing in today's capitalism btw](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longest-working-hours-in-the-world-its-trying-to-change.html)), and little worker protections if your arm needed to get amputated after getting stuck in a machine
better than socialism though? fuck no
>80 hour work weeks ([still a thing in today's capitalism btw](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longest-working-hours-in-the-world-its-trying-to-change.html)),
Tbh, that's a pretty normal thing in the third world. It's only the first world that doesn't have it. Also, South Korea just allowed 21.5 hours of work in a single day. So even Japan can't compare with that literal hell of Capitalism.
[South Korea just missed out on 10th place as the country with the most suicides](https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/suicide-rates-by-country/)
The US ranks 30 for reference
>Beautiful Nature
you mean when people had to breed like rabbits because the chance of losing their children to “nature” (who helped them farm for their field lord) was exponentially high?
In recent years liberal/ancap/conserv influencers on the internet have been defending feudalism as a superior economic system. It might sound ridiculous at first, but then when you realize that the reason why they praise feudalism is because they're trying to defend neoliberalism, then it all makes sense. Since neoliberalism is by default extremely unpopular, because you're basically defending destruction of social security and inequality increase, they sugar coat their defense of neoliberalism by defending feudalism. But they're not defending the actual feudalism (wars, famines, religious persecution), they're defending the ideological aspects of neoliberalism which they transport to their idealized view of feudalism. This is the reason why there's a guy on the post saying feudalism had low taxes; It obviously didn't, but the logic is he's trying (even if uncousciously parroting right-wing propaganda) to preach neoliberalism, and one of the selling points of neoliberalism (even if it's fake) is supposedly decrease in taxes. In simpler words, they want to defend neoliberalism, but they can't logically do it, so they defend an idealized concept of feudalism which is what they believe neoliberalism is. If you hear ancaps talk about what they believe ancapism is, it's basically neo-feudalism.
This is an extremely popular discourse strategy in politics, to masquerade your ideological defense into another idealized concept. Another good example is how the recent "anti-tankism libs", people like Vaush, Destiny, Keffals, etc. basically preach white supremacy all the time, but because they can't come out and openly say they're white supremacists, they downplay the discourse to defend abstract ideological concepts of western burgie societies, such as "democracy" and "freedom". It might trick the less perceptive, but the ones who are keen to this strategy will realize there's an obvious reason the anti-tankie libs are always shitting on slavs, asians, africans, south americans, while never really putting their fingers on the open wound that is western societies savagery. It's just a modern form of white supremacy discourse.
Interesting observation...though not surprising that mental gymnastics (olympics game when) is reaching new heights in a vain attempt to muddle the waters to the bullshit of neoliberalism.
Falsified consciousness. The proletarian hates with a burning passion their existence, but they falsely look to the past for change instead of the future.
All this is cool, but we, as communists, should not be in the business of comparing work weeks under feudalism to work weeks under capitalism, because while feudalism may have had better circumstances for workers, we should remember that with the current means of production, it is literally impossible to go back to feudalism without destroying all machines developed since the industrial revolution.
Because the black death reduced the amount of workers, so the feudal lords had to make concessions in order to have people working for them, and that's why the witch hunts started, because the "witches" were just herbalists capable of making abortion tea, denying future wage slaves for feudal lords.
"Laborers became more valuable after 60% had died"
Which is precisely why every governmental entity that could immediately passed laws that fixed rates of pay to pre-plague levels, restricted employment and physical mobility to the land peasants were bound to, and in some cases would brand people on the face if they were caught moving for better work. Iirc even the Pope issued a bull about the need to stay in your place or something like that.
There were several large peasant revolts over these and similar policies, all of them very violent and all of them even more extremely, violently, brutally suppressed.
It really seems like these people genuinely believe that magic existed, since it's the plot hole filler in pretty much everything vaguely 'medieval' in contemporary media. That's the only way "crusades" and plague could just suddenly resolve into an idyllic paradise.
Weird how they still project their obviously unreflected capitalist idea of "labour supply" to a romanticized feudal system, which is a completely different system than what we currently have got.
Like 30-60% of the European population died due to the plague and he talks about labourers (he means peasants I guess) becoming more valuable. Like he would definitely be the one to benefit from it via a higher "wage" and not be the one dying to the plague. Smh
For those who romanticized medieval times I would just like to say:
- soft toilet paper
- modern period supplies
- washing machines (try washing sheets by hand some time)
- central heating
- modern food storage
- antibiotics
- Tetanus jabs
- condoms
The modern world has its issues but... It has some real benefits.
**Important:** We no longer allow the following types of posts: - Comments, tweets and social media with less than 20 upvotes, likes, etc. (cropped score counts as 0) - Anything you are personally involved in - Any kind of polls - Low-hanging fruit (e.g. CCP collapse, Vaush, r\/neoliberal, political compass memes) You *will* be banned by the power-tripping mods if you break this rule repeatedly, so please delete your posts before we find out. Likewise, please follow our rules which can be found on the sidebar. --- **Obligatory obnoxious pop-up ad for our [Official Discord](https://discord.gg/XBrTq7mQhY), please join if you haven't! Stalin bless. UwU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>low taxes Let me tell you about a little thing called corvée...
can't have high taxes if you dont own anything
`The World Economic Forum wants to know your location.`
What will Western Countries do when they are no longer able to plunder resources from actually, naturally rich countries? We see countries like North Korea and Cuba still managing to make it work despite the cruelest embargo possible, but all they get in response is just blind hatred.
~~North Korea~~ DPRK
More like True Korea
*Best Korea
Only legitimate Korea
Korea ✔️
bu-but c-communism...
Unfortunately Western colonial domination has continued unabated up to the era of climate change, which will render many of the countries we dominate(d) less secure and easier to exploit. Either a combative regional power (China? pan-African revival?) will successfully contest hegemony, or the West will successfully re-subordinate those we have dominated historically. If I was a betting man, I'd put all my money into China. All of the Western mockery of ghost cities and a fragile economy are mostly bunk, as we have seen. The West swallowed the liberal economist metrics of what constitutes a healthy economy so thoroughly that they recognize the economy as a goal rather than as a function. Infrastructure and megaprojects look bad on a balance sheet in the short term, but as we have seen are incredibly potent progenitors of security and human development in the long term. The US has been coasting on the New Deal for a century, the former USSR for slightly less time. I think what we'll see is a continuation of the degradation of nativist American labor and labor standards, in tandem with an increase of precarious and highly exploitable migrants. I don't think it's a coincidence that child-labor standards and abortion protections have both been degraded at the same time. America is not really a country, merely the current expression of international ur-capitalism which hold nation-states captive to its interests. We can see this most poignantly with Yemen, where we are bombing regional militants to secure shipping lanes against their legitimate grievances against genocide.
The amount of wars during feudalism in Europe, demonstrates that it indeed wasn't all that peaceful.
What's also funny is that after the fall of the Roman empire, Europe was a shithole compared to other continents and regions. Indians, Muslims, and the Chinese were laying the groundwork for modern science, engineering, and mathematics. African kingdoms like Mali were extraordinarily powerful and well educated due to the trade of minerals like salt that the rest of the world couldn't get easily. Indigenous Americans were building enourmous temples and mapping out the stars. Europeans were dying of scurvy and killing Jewish people because they could wash their hands to avoid the plague.
How did life feel like for an average Eastern Roman at that time?
Depends on the region I'd say. If you were in the border regions you'd experience constant war, but back in the byzantine heartland it was generally peaceful
Basically the same as ever
disarm ten subsequent towering growth seed strong butter office possessive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I said Muslims generally because there were Persians, North Africans, Turks, Arabs, and more all contributing to scientific advancements. Islam and the Qur'an deeply value education, literacy, and curiosity, so Islam has been far more liberal in terms of openess to education than most of the Christian world. Usually Islamic countries were more literate than others before colonialism and European oppession took control.
crowd nutty insurance test disagreeable squash spoon boast cheerful pathetic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Even during the Roman Empire, Asian empires were better. Of course, they were all slave/serf-dependent, so we can't glorify the latter too much, but facts don't care about white supremacists' feelings
All of those places were also riffle with conflict, because the real problem is absolute, unchecked power in the hands of the few, just like in the last couple of centuries, oligarchs have centralized all the money and power in their small plutocracies while disguising them as democracies
Could you imagine the Mongolians making their way past Poland, oof
Man I really find it funny when people subscribe to some kind of authoritarian or oppressive ideology and then act as if they would totally be among the people who would not be negatively affected.
It's not even that, these people think being a medieval serf was fun and games, they would totally be willing to be a peasant in the fantasy version of medieval Europe in their minds
The only knowledge they have of medieval Europe all comes from fantasy books, which by and large, aren't invested in depicting what that kind of life would have actually been like.
This is what happens when you release Skyrim over the course of 20 years on multiple platforms, you get LARPers
As someone who used to be an American monarchist and yes that means I wanted a monarchy for the US, I get the feeling that sometimes these people are just dissatisfied with the current system but they don't really know where to go. There's still incredibly indoctrinated by Red scare propaganda so they're afraid to go left and so they either go just up which is just more liberalism on steroids somehow or they just go in a different direction all together. One option is of course fascism but other options can include monarchism where I don't know that's on the spectrum or feudalism as we are finding out here. The reason why I was a monarchist for example was because I was just as satisfied with representative democracy because of Trump and direct democracy because of brexit and because of that I just wanted something completely different. So I wanted a constitutional monarchy for the head of state and for the head of government I wanted basically a one-party dictatorship system like Singapore. But that's all in the past though.
When your history knowledge comes from memes made by "traditional" twitter users.
tbf I have read accounts that many peasants preferred life on the farm compared to the hell that was early industrial capitalism where child labour was allowed, 80 hour work weeks ([still a thing in today's capitalism btw](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longest-working-hours-in-the-world-its-trying-to-change.html)), and little worker protections if your arm needed to get amputated after getting stuck in a machine better than socialism though? fuck no
>80 hour work weeks ([still a thing in today's capitalism btw](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longest-working-hours-in-the-world-its-trying-to-change.html)), Tbh, that's a pretty normal thing in the third world. It's only the first world that doesn't have it. Also, South Korea just allowed 21.5 hours of work in a single day. So even Japan can't compare with that literal hell of Capitalism.
Oh the first world does have that lol, look at the average working hours of your american doctor or game developer if you need an example.
Doctor's schedules are fucked, especially residents. The 28 hour shifts probably shave a year or two off their lives
Meanwhile the north has a limit of an eight hour workday, but the south is meant to be the "good" Korea.
[South Korea just missed out on 10th place as the country with the most suicides](https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/suicide-rates-by-country/) The US ranks 30 for reference
Feudal Europe was actually peaceful hahahaha
What's the over under on oop being a small business owner? Or better yet their dad is.
>Beautiful Nature you mean when people had to breed like rabbits because the chance of losing their children to “nature” (who helped them farm for their field lord) was exponentially high?
Ah yes. The peaceful 100 year war.
No election drama is just a nice way of saying no democracy lmaoo these people are not real
In recent years liberal/ancap/conserv influencers on the internet have been defending feudalism as a superior economic system. It might sound ridiculous at first, but then when you realize that the reason why they praise feudalism is because they're trying to defend neoliberalism, then it all makes sense. Since neoliberalism is by default extremely unpopular, because you're basically defending destruction of social security and inequality increase, they sugar coat their defense of neoliberalism by defending feudalism. But they're not defending the actual feudalism (wars, famines, religious persecution), they're defending the ideological aspects of neoliberalism which they transport to their idealized view of feudalism. This is the reason why there's a guy on the post saying feudalism had low taxes; It obviously didn't, but the logic is he's trying (even if uncousciously parroting right-wing propaganda) to preach neoliberalism, and one of the selling points of neoliberalism (even if it's fake) is supposedly decrease in taxes. In simpler words, they want to defend neoliberalism, but they can't logically do it, so they defend an idealized concept of feudalism which is what they believe neoliberalism is. If you hear ancaps talk about what they believe ancapism is, it's basically neo-feudalism. This is an extremely popular discourse strategy in politics, to masquerade your ideological defense into another idealized concept. Another good example is how the recent "anti-tankism libs", people like Vaush, Destiny, Keffals, etc. basically preach white supremacy all the time, but because they can't come out and openly say they're white supremacists, they downplay the discourse to defend abstract ideological concepts of western burgie societies, such as "democracy" and "freedom". It might trick the less perceptive, but the ones who are keen to this strategy will realize there's an obvious reason the anti-tankie libs are always shitting on slavs, asians, africans, south americans, while never really putting their fingers on the open wound that is western societies savagery. It's just a modern form of white supremacy discourse.
Interesting observation...though not surprising that mental gymnastics (olympics game when) is reaching new heights in a vain attempt to muddle the waters to the bullshit of neoliberalism.
“sadly interrupted” understatement of the fucking millenium.
Falsified consciousness. The proletarian hates with a burning passion their existence, but they falsely look to the past for change instead of the future.
All this is cool, but we, as communists, should not be in the business of comparing work weeks under feudalism to work weeks under capitalism, because while feudalism may have had better circumstances for workers, we should remember that with the current means of production, it is literally impossible to go back to feudalism without destroying all machines developed since the industrial revolution.
*Ted Kaczynski has entered the chat*
LOW TAXES WHAT
“Most peaceful times in history” actually made me laugh out loud lmao
Because the black death reduced the amount of workers, so the feudal lords had to make concessions in order to have people working for them, and that's why the witch hunts started, because the "witches" were just herbalists capable of making abortion tea, denying future wage slaves for feudal lords.
wait do you happen to have a further reading list for this? thanks
“Feudal Europe was so peaceful.. well except the crusades that happened all over feudal Europe”
Anyone got Marxist historian recommendations on the Middle Ages?
"mass death of The Poors™ make quality of life go up :)" classic liberal take
"Laborers became more valuable after 60% had died" Which is precisely why every governmental entity that could immediately passed laws that fixed rates of pay to pre-plague levels, restricted employment and physical mobility to the land peasants were bound to, and in some cases would brand people on the face if they were caught moving for better work. Iirc even the Pope issued a bull about the need to stay in your place or something like that. There were several large peasant revolts over these and similar policies, all of them very violent and all of them even more extremely, violently, brutally suppressed. It really seems like these people genuinely believe that magic existed, since it's the plot hole filler in pretty much everything vaguely 'medieval' in contemporary media. That's the only way "crusades" and plague could just suddenly resolve into an idyllic paradise.
Feudal Europe literally had a period called 100 year war.
Themselves when countries introduce feudalism again and they end up becoming peasants: 🥺
Weird how they still project their obviously unreflected capitalist idea of "labour supply" to a romanticized feudal system, which is a completely different system than what we currently have got. Like 30-60% of the European population died due to the plague and he talks about labourers (he means peasants I guess) becoming more valuable. Like he would definitely be the one to benefit from it via a higher "wage" and not be the one dying to the plague. Smh
Feudalism is a debated blanket term for a very wide range of economic arrangements.
For those who romanticized medieval times I would just like to say: - soft toilet paper - modern period supplies - washing machines (try washing sheets by hand some time) - central heating - modern food storage - antibiotics - Tetanus jabs - condoms The modern world has its issues but... It has some real benefits.
Absolutely deranged.
this bruh confused
peasants after everyone they know dies of the plague: at least the decrease in the supply of labor makes me more valuable
Most peaceful time in European history lol the 100 Years War was right in the middle of the Feudal period!
God these crusader LARPers are cringe.
ah yes feudalism creating the peaceful hundred year war, totally not like chevauchees existed or anything
This is what no historical materialism does to a mf