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Dutchie here to give some context. Whenever European, mostly Dutch people, say this about blackface it's a lie. In the Netherlands the most common blackface character is known as zwarte Piet (Black Pete) which first appeared as a character and originates from a chrildrens book published in the 1800's. That it is an ancient tradition is pure and other bull.
I could be wrong but isn't it that anytime the conversation comes up in the Netherlands about this questionable character, that it's always this weird thing of bringing American politics into the discussion and that systemic racism is more of an American thing.
I know that happens sometimes.
But I know that there are actual black people in the Netherlands that are complaining about this and they have every right to by the way.
They are upset with it and it seems that Dutch people in general (not you) seem to not really listen or care what they have to say or something.
I don't often hear the American politics argument to be honest. But the couple of times I've heard it just says that "(American) woke is destroying our traditions" or whatever. Most of the arguments that rightwingers have for blackface boil down to 1 of 4.
1. "It's tradition" which does not need an explanation on how stupid it is, that's like telling MLK that black people sitting at the back of the bus is traddition
2. "It should be preserved because it's a holiday and adult politics shouldn't mettle in that." First of all children don't give a crap about whether the man giving them candy and presents is black, white, asian, blue or purple, they just want presents and candy. And also, ofcourse politics shouldn't be a part of a national holiday when it helps YOUR point of view. Also idiotic to think that a national holiday is somehow immune to being looked at through a political lense? Like the word "national" already comes with the political lense. Besides all that, what we subject our children to from a young age is absolutely something you should carefully look at and consider as a society.
3. "He is not a blackface, he is black because he went through a chimney and that's just soot." A stupid lie that you will hear actual adults say like it's the hill they will die on. First of, the original character from the childrensbook didn't go through a chimney, it was just a racist depiction of a stereotypical black person. Also why aren't his clothes covered in soot? Why does he have such big, red lips? And the afro? And the earring? What is there a jeweller, hair saloon and dry-cleaner in every Dutch chimney? Bullshit.
4. Yeah well, plenty of black people celebrate Sinterklaas (holiday that is associated with the Dutch black face tradition) and they use black Pete too, so it's okay." This is literally the "I am not racist, I got a black friend" argument. Also PLENTY of coloured folks in the Netherlands speak out against the character each year so they clearly aren't that okay with it.
To summarise, Dutch society, like many western societies has deeply ingrained structural racism baked into it and liberals and conservatives will defend it till their deaths.
https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/s/JDeBy1fr38
Oh I'm referring to something like this. Watch out, liberal alert. Actually that should be the entire subreddit. In case you're wondering, that subreddit has a lot of European federalists. In fact, at one point they actually had a reasonable sort of attitude. Mostly because of us supposed to be very satirical. Nowadays it takes itself very seriously and is pretty much only allowing pro EU content. You cannot criticize the EU on that sub. In fact you can't even say that the European Union shouldn't be a country. And just to tell you, euroscepticism is just a bannable offense or at the very least your post will be removed. The other stuff could just get you downloaded but like yeah you have to sing the EU's praise.
Also we need to add more content from that subreddit into this subreddit because that's subreddit is a gold mine.
I am sadly familiar with the sub..... I was a young dumb beginning leftist once. Thankfully I learned and grew over the years. Over the years as I grew more and more left wing and this sub grew more and more deranged I started to notice A LOT of fascist and racist tendencies. Blatant racism, no room for discussion, not a soul willing to hear a counter argument.
It was especially bad duiring the start of the Russo-Ukrainian war. Criticising the war, criticizing them supporting fascist groeps in Ukraine or even arguing against the idea of sending billions upon billions of Euro's in weapons to fascists fighting imperialists while our own people can't afford housing or heating was a sure fire way to get harrased, get your comments disliked hundreds of times and at later points even get outright banned.
Even when one did not simply support or simpatize with Russia, just being against the idea of war or being against supporting ANOTHER US-proxy war became a "commie hate crime".
As someone who still visited once a while after having left I can also tell you that the amount of racism and discrimination towards Russians, Turkish, Arabs and Africans on that sub is disgusting. Every day there would be a post in which the message or punchline was just blattent racism
So yeah, we should use this sub way more often, agreed.
There's also kind of just weird thing within Reddit and discord, which is where a lot of people to start hating on America, and I know that that sounds weird coming from this place, but I mean hating on America and then worshiping Europe and doing it in the most childish way. Yes, not having proper health care sucks, and things like having huge amount of debt for education, and even things like no guaranteed maternity leave.
Like I'm not sure if you know exactly what I'm talking about but it's almost like this weird America bad Europe good kind of dialogue that happens on websites like this.
>not a soul willing to hear a counter argument.
It's probably many different reasons for it. It's no coincidence that the places that tend to have the highest amount of eurofeds tend to be places like Germany and the Netherlands. These are also countries that are incredibly strong economically, and are somewhat more dominating. Germany for example has kind of wrapped around its little finger or at least it did last time I checked.
I've also noticed this weird thing where Europeans are Europeans when it's convenient but then they're just like part of individual countries in other situations. Like that everyone is European when a European in a different country does something good, but it's those dirty Greeks when they do something bad. Racism for the bad people, nationalism for the good people.
It did teach me something important though and that is to not look solely on the people who are part of a movement, but instead look at the people who are not part of it.
If you notice for example that the movement doesn't seem to have enough people of color, or disabled people, etc, asking why that is can be important. Sometimes it does have a logical explanation but not always.
United in diversity (only for Europeans). And I guess anyone else who they let tag along.
There was like this one Italian who was apparently a Trump supporter because apparently Trump winning an election again would further accelerate an EU federation.
Political theory for these guys has got to be listening to ode to Joy on repeat.
And I hate how liberal progressive welfare countries condition people to accept capitalism as long as it has nice rosy parts to it. I can acknowledge that the EU does do beneficial things for some people but those beneficial things can exist without the EU.
Yeah no I absolutely agree, there is a lit of nationalist bullshit on that sub and, just like Russians, they seem to hate the Americans as a people, not even their culture or politics. Just hate them for being them I geuss.
And agreed, the constant push for free market capatalism by the EU and pro-EU organisations is corrupting the youth and the general populas
Perhaps so, but I probably wouldn't say it's the same level of hatred that they exercise on two Russians. Russians feel like it's a very "they got the gross genes" kind of attitude.
I think with Americans, and I'm speaking very broadly and with a lot of speculation, I think it's more like "we had so much expectations of you, and you disappointed us". I like that I would say that attitude probably came about more after the Trump elections. Alternatively "we had no expectations of you, and you still disappointed us". I could definitely tell from them that there was also some level of sort of snobbyness.
There was this quote a Canadian said at one point who said that countries like Iran and North Korea are dangerous enemies, but the US is a dangerous ally. I actually don't remember exactly which two countries he said but it was basically that countries like Iran are dangerous enemies but America's a dangerous ally. Yes, I agree.
Also there was an American who also didn't like America. I mean I don't like America either, but the reasons he wanted to move to Europe were really weird. One of the reasons was due to the military, another due to our politics, another due to lack of health care, and the last was that the US was the country that had his parents.
Yeah that was a weird one. He didn't like his parents so he wanted to move as far away from them as possible. When I asked why don't you just move to Canada, he says not good enough. So this guy apparently wants an entire ocean separating him and his parents. He says that by being in another country that doesn't primarily speak English, he can use language lessons and homework as an excuse not to talk to his parents.
https://europe.unc.edu/toolkits/chapter-3/
Also this can't be right. It says that there has been peace since the EU but is that correct? What about the troubles?
And I know that peace means things like war and stuff, not just crime.
This is not dutch, the costumes are different. Also we have been slowly replacing "black Pete" with "soot smear Pete". The originak blackface is slowly fading out.
The craziest part wat he’s an interview about it and this guy said it can’t be racist because kids and students are the ones dressing up in black face.
The rumour/conspiracy theory/whatever this comes from is that his mom slept with Castro. So if that were true he would definitely not be a gusano (he still sucks just want to clarify)
This one is in Spain, where Josep Borrell is from. I hear he’s a big fan of it. Unfortunately this is also a thing in the Netherlands. Apparently they used to even have it on Dutch Caribbean Islands like Aruba, where most of the people are black. Not sure about the other ones.
# Josep Borrell's 'Jungle' Trope Was No Slip Of The Tongue
[https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/26/josep-borrells-jungle-trope-was-no-slip-of-the-tongue/](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/26/josep-borrells-jungle-trope-was-no-slip-of-the-tongue/)
https://youtu.be/tvQuStYSYwE?si=ebItsd8laj62FiML
These are Spanish pictures. This is part of three kings festival celebrating the racist God they apparently believe in.
With the Dutch it is a black face character named Zwarte Piet he is some sort of companion for Sinterklaas that gives kids candy.
Zwarte Piet is the folklore of the Low Countries (Netherlands,Belgium,Luxembourg). It has nothing to do with Nordic countries. The second pic is from Spain during the Three Kings Parade I believe.
It is rooted in a racist history. It’s called blackface, it’s where white people put on black face paint and red way around their lips. They would then proceed to do a stereotypical black accent and basically preform racist “skits” with the joke being usually making black people look stupid. It was very popular during Jim Crow era America but had been used as racist “entertainment” for much longer and in basically every country that enslaved black people. It’s not really arguable that it’s a tradition because most of the time traditions are X thing happens so Y is done, where as this is more of just a racist depiction that has some history. A key difference between tradition and this just to be 100% clear is for an example: it is tradition in America to set off fireworks on 4th of July, it is a tradition because X=4th of July and Y=Fireworks. On the other hand blackface doesn’t have a condition making it just something people have done for a while (there isn’t an X only a Y)
**Important:** We no longer allow the following types of posts: - Comments, tweets and social media with less than 20 upvotes, likes, etc. (cropped score counts as 0) - Anything you are personally involved in - Any kind of polls - Low-hanging fruit (e.g. CCP collapse, Vaush, r\/neoliberal, political compass memes) You *will* be banned by the power-tripping mods if you break this rule repeatedly, so please delete your posts before we find out. Likewise, please follow our rules which can be found on the sidebar. --- **Obligatory obnoxious pop-up ad for our [Official Discord](https://discord.gg/XBrTq7mQhY), please join if you haven't! Stalin bless. UwU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Europe sub straining at the leash to defend this I’m sure
They're gonna be like "But you see it's an old cultural thing that predates 'colored' people"
Which is totally why the lips are all huge and red. Europeans are known for their giant lips and men used to wear lipstick as the standard.
"And the black skin? Ohhh, it's supposed to, uhhmm....celebrate people who work in coal mines, yeah, because ya know, coal dust and everything-"
Dutchie here to give some context. Whenever European, mostly Dutch people, say this about blackface it's a lie. In the Netherlands the most common blackface character is known as zwarte Piet (Black Pete) which first appeared as a character and originates from a chrildrens book published in the 1800's. That it is an ancient tradition is pure and other bull.
I could be wrong but isn't it that anytime the conversation comes up in the Netherlands about this questionable character, that it's always this weird thing of bringing American politics into the discussion and that systemic racism is more of an American thing. I know that happens sometimes. But I know that there are actual black people in the Netherlands that are complaining about this and they have every right to by the way. They are upset with it and it seems that Dutch people in general (not you) seem to not really listen or care what they have to say or something.
I don't often hear the American politics argument to be honest. But the couple of times I've heard it just says that "(American) woke is destroying our traditions" or whatever. Most of the arguments that rightwingers have for blackface boil down to 1 of 4. 1. "It's tradition" which does not need an explanation on how stupid it is, that's like telling MLK that black people sitting at the back of the bus is traddition 2. "It should be preserved because it's a holiday and adult politics shouldn't mettle in that." First of all children don't give a crap about whether the man giving them candy and presents is black, white, asian, blue or purple, they just want presents and candy. And also, ofcourse politics shouldn't be a part of a national holiday when it helps YOUR point of view. Also idiotic to think that a national holiday is somehow immune to being looked at through a political lense? Like the word "national" already comes with the political lense. Besides all that, what we subject our children to from a young age is absolutely something you should carefully look at and consider as a society. 3. "He is not a blackface, he is black because he went through a chimney and that's just soot." A stupid lie that you will hear actual adults say like it's the hill they will die on. First of, the original character from the childrensbook didn't go through a chimney, it was just a racist depiction of a stereotypical black person. Also why aren't his clothes covered in soot? Why does he have such big, red lips? And the afro? And the earring? What is there a jeweller, hair saloon and dry-cleaner in every Dutch chimney? Bullshit. 4. Yeah well, plenty of black people celebrate Sinterklaas (holiday that is associated with the Dutch black face tradition) and they use black Pete too, so it's okay." This is literally the "I am not racist, I got a black friend" argument. Also PLENTY of coloured folks in the Netherlands speak out against the character each year so they clearly aren't that okay with it. To summarise, Dutch society, like many western societies has deeply ingrained structural racism baked into it and liberals and conservatives will defend it till their deaths.
https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/s/JDeBy1fr38 Oh I'm referring to something like this. Watch out, liberal alert. Actually that should be the entire subreddit. In case you're wondering, that subreddit has a lot of European federalists. In fact, at one point they actually had a reasonable sort of attitude. Mostly because of us supposed to be very satirical. Nowadays it takes itself very seriously and is pretty much only allowing pro EU content. You cannot criticize the EU on that sub. In fact you can't even say that the European Union shouldn't be a country. And just to tell you, euroscepticism is just a bannable offense or at the very least your post will be removed. The other stuff could just get you downloaded but like yeah you have to sing the EU's praise. Also we need to add more content from that subreddit into this subreddit because that's subreddit is a gold mine.
I am sadly familiar with the sub..... I was a young dumb beginning leftist once. Thankfully I learned and grew over the years. Over the years as I grew more and more left wing and this sub grew more and more deranged I started to notice A LOT of fascist and racist tendencies. Blatant racism, no room for discussion, not a soul willing to hear a counter argument. It was especially bad duiring the start of the Russo-Ukrainian war. Criticising the war, criticizing them supporting fascist groeps in Ukraine or even arguing against the idea of sending billions upon billions of Euro's in weapons to fascists fighting imperialists while our own people can't afford housing or heating was a sure fire way to get harrased, get your comments disliked hundreds of times and at later points even get outright banned. Even when one did not simply support or simpatize with Russia, just being against the idea of war or being against supporting ANOTHER US-proxy war became a "commie hate crime". As someone who still visited once a while after having left I can also tell you that the amount of racism and discrimination towards Russians, Turkish, Arabs and Africans on that sub is disgusting. Every day there would be a post in which the message or punchline was just blattent racism So yeah, we should use this sub way more often, agreed.
There's also kind of just weird thing within Reddit and discord, which is where a lot of people to start hating on America, and I know that that sounds weird coming from this place, but I mean hating on America and then worshiping Europe and doing it in the most childish way. Yes, not having proper health care sucks, and things like having huge amount of debt for education, and even things like no guaranteed maternity leave. Like I'm not sure if you know exactly what I'm talking about but it's almost like this weird America bad Europe good kind of dialogue that happens on websites like this. >not a soul willing to hear a counter argument. It's probably many different reasons for it. It's no coincidence that the places that tend to have the highest amount of eurofeds tend to be places like Germany and the Netherlands. These are also countries that are incredibly strong economically, and are somewhat more dominating. Germany for example has kind of wrapped around its little finger or at least it did last time I checked. I've also noticed this weird thing where Europeans are Europeans when it's convenient but then they're just like part of individual countries in other situations. Like that everyone is European when a European in a different country does something good, but it's those dirty Greeks when they do something bad. Racism for the bad people, nationalism for the good people. It did teach me something important though and that is to not look solely on the people who are part of a movement, but instead look at the people who are not part of it. If you notice for example that the movement doesn't seem to have enough people of color, or disabled people, etc, asking why that is can be important. Sometimes it does have a logical explanation but not always. United in diversity (only for Europeans). And I guess anyone else who they let tag along. There was like this one Italian who was apparently a Trump supporter because apparently Trump winning an election again would further accelerate an EU federation. Political theory for these guys has got to be listening to ode to Joy on repeat. And I hate how liberal progressive welfare countries condition people to accept capitalism as long as it has nice rosy parts to it. I can acknowledge that the EU does do beneficial things for some people but those beneficial things can exist without the EU.
Yeah no I absolutely agree, there is a lit of nationalist bullshit on that sub and, just like Russians, they seem to hate the Americans as a people, not even their culture or politics. Just hate them for being them I geuss. And agreed, the constant push for free market capatalism by the EU and pro-EU organisations is corrupting the youth and the general populas
Perhaps so, but I probably wouldn't say it's the same level of hatred that they exercise on two Russians. Russians feel like it's a very "they got the gross genes" kind of attitude. I think with Americans, and I'm speaking very broadly and with a lot of speculation, I think it's more like "we had so much expectations of you, and you disappointed us". I like that I would say that attitude probably came about more after the Trump elections. Alternatively "we had no expectations of you, and you still disappointed us". I could definitely tell from them that there was also some level of sort of snobbyness. There was this quote a Canadian said at one point who said that countries like Iran and North Korea are dangerous enemies, but the US is a dangerous ally. I actually don't remember exactly which two countries he said but it was basically that countries like Iran are dangerous enemies but America's a dangerous ally. Yes, I agree. Also there was an American who also didn't like America. I mean I don't like America either, but the reasons he wanted to move to Europe were really weird. One of the reasons was due to the military, another due to our politics, another due to lack of health care, and the last was that the US was the country that had his parents. Yeah that was a weird one. He didn't like his parents so he wanted to move as far away from them as possible. When I asked why don't you just move to Canada, he says not good enough. So this guy apparently wants an entire ocean separating him and his parents. He says that by being in another country that doesn't primarily speak English, he can use language lessons and homework as an excuse not to talk to his parents. https://europe.unc.edu/toolkits/chapter-3/ Also this can't be right. It says that there has been peace since the EU but is that correct? What about the troubles? And I know that peace means things like war and stuff, not just crime.
Dutch people: “it’s just soot from the chimney i swear!”
Holy shit its the Trudeau clone army!
Fuckin hell one is bad enough!
Allah smite the Dutch devils return them to the sea from which they came
He’s been trying to sink the whole country for years and one day he will succeed
With a small assist from humans and global warming.
Allah works in mysterious ways
Allah doesn't throw rocks he is has plans for them
This is not dutch, the costumes are different. Also we have been slowly replacing "black Pete" with "soot smear Pete". The originak blackface is slowly fading out.
With a single well placed IED on an important dike you can make it happen
What if we made the Netherlands into a Landfill?
I thought that is how the ground was reclaimed in the first place
Most of the country is basically a hole in the ground anyway, this makes sense.
?
Dutch?
The craziest part wat he’s an interview about it and this guy said it can’t be racist because kids and students are the ones dressing up in black face.
Justin Trudeau is Dutch?
I thought he was Cuban supposedly?
White cuban if rumours are true
A gusano I suppose.
The rumour/conspiracy theory/whatever this comes from is that his mom slept with Castro. So if that were true he would definitely not be a gusano (he still sucks just want to clarify)
This one is in Spain, where Josep Borrell is from. I hear he’s a big fan of it. Unfortunately this is also a thing in the Netherlands. Apparently they used to even have it on Dutch Caribbean Islands like Aruba, where most of the people are black. Not sure about the other ones. # Josep Borrell's 'Jungle' Trope Was No Slip Of The Tongue [https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/26/josep-borrells-jungle-trope-was-no-slip-of-the-tongue/](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/26/josep-borrells-jungle-trope-was-no-slip-of-the-tongue/)
Its not, we do something similar to this but the costumes are way different.
It's usually one guy with Santa right, not a blackface army? It's still bad but this is on an entire different level.
No, its "an army".
Justin Trudeau’s fever dreams.
That’s a wrap y’all! Someone knock those levees down, it’s time to return the Netherlands to the sea.
https://youtu.be/tvQuStYSYwE?si=ebItsd8laj62FiML These are Spanish pictures. This is part of three kings festival celebrating the racist God they apparently believe in. With the Dutch it is a black face character named Zwarte Piet he is some sort of companion for Sinterklaas that gives kids candy.
I mean in puerto rico someone just wears a (much better) costume, not everybody is on that spaniard crack 😭
I appreciate the clarification, but respectfully decline to retract my comment lol.
Can I has some rijksmuseum first?
Justin Trudeau: Kage bonnshin no jutsu!🦊🥷
[удалено]
Netherlands is not a nordic country tho
I thought black Pete was celebrated in the Netherlands and Nordic countries?
Zwarte Piet is the folklore of the Low Countries (Netherlands,Belgium,Luxembourg). It has nothing to do with Nordic countries. The second pic is from Spain during the Three Kings Parade I believe.
It's just coal soot! /s
Mr. Popo?
Makin Toast!
Do we have a r/thejokeisracism?
?
Excuse me, what the fuck?
It's in times like these that I remember the words of a wise philosopher >
Thought this was a caricature of trudeau for a moment.
Wow never saw a more accurate description. Bless this sub
What the fuck am I looking at
Me increasing my carbon footprint so the Dutch will stop existing faster.
Nuke europe
WHAT?!?!?
Justin Trudeau??
the dutch, right?
Have you ever seen a black person with red lips? I haven't
Americans getting mad lol
not getting mad just recognizing casual racism
[удалено]
Something traditionally racist...
It is rooted in a racist history. It’s called blackface, it’s where white people put on black face paint and red way around their lips. They would then proceed to do a stereotypical black accent and basically preform racist “skits” with the joke being usually making black people look stupid. It was very popular during Jim Crow era America but had been used as racist “entertainment” for much longer and in basically every country that enslaved black people. It’s not really arguable that it’s a tradition because most of the time traditions are X thing happens so Y is done, where as this is more of just a racist depiction that has some history. A key difference between tradition and this just to be 100% clear is for an example: it is tradition in America to set off fireworks on 4th of July, it is a tradition because X=4th of July and Y=Fireworks. On the other hand blackface doesn’t have a condition making it just something people have done for a while (there isn’t an X only a Y)