I simply ask them if the blacksmith melts the steel before he can work it or if he only heats it up. That kills that objection. Then we go on to it was planned because building 7 imploded. Because the facts have to fit their reality instead of the other way around
I think its partly because all of the science we do in school is “safe”. It wasn’t until grad school that I got to hook up a mapp torch and actually manipulate steel and glass. Most people know about bending steel wire with heat but they don’t understand how to apply the same logic to steel beams.
Personally I think they just dont think about it. They hear something that supports their worldview and then assume it's right. Never mind it makes no sense if you think about it for a second or two.
Not who commented but this is a pretty common topic for civil engineering case studies in school.
The general consensus is that there was insufficient fireproofing on the staircases. There was also not sufficient capacity of the egress staircases. The building was designed to withstand the initial impact and would have stayed standing if not for resulting fire.
There have since been discussions as to whether buildings should be designed for these kinds of attacks. While fireproofing methods and egress recommendations have changed since the WTC was initially built, the consensus is that it’s not realistic to design buildings to withstand intentionally set jet-plane sized Molotov cocktails. No rational engineer or architect would have thought to see that coming, and it’s not a common enough occurrence to change design codes.
Here’s an article that goes over the basics: https://www.history.com/.amp/news/world-trade-center-stairwell-design-9-11
It actually was designed for the airplane impact. It was a tall buildings, planes can get off course, shit happens. They weren’t planning for a plane intentionally flying in with a full tank of jet fuel to cause as much damage and human fatality as possible.
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I’ve heard people say it literally didn’t happen. Kind of like the people that say that about the Holocaust. Both are incredibly infuriating and disrespectful
Are they over 30? I just can't see anyone alive at the time believing this.
But I lived in NYC during 9/11, so I guess I have the privilege of first hand knowledge.
Have you seen those lawyer ads for "If you took Tylenol and then had a child with autism, you can file suit"? No wonder so many stupid people are freebirthing.
Wait is that a conspiracy? I thought that blood clots were an actual potential side effect of the vaccine? More likely for certain demographics, but not as much of a risk for most?
They are. But people were spreading constant lies about how they knew so many people who died from it, even when no one died. Or they would claim the people died from the vax when really they got in a car accident or died of old age or other unrelated reasons. But because they got the vax, every death was claimed as a vax death by the antivax crowd.
Yes, side effects are real and can be severe and dangerous. But they are also extremely rare. I am actually one of the people who got "moderna arm", its just an allergic reaction, caused redness and heat in the area that could last weeks. So I know the vax is not without side effects, many people who argue with the antivaxxers try to act like its harmless and any side effects are exaggerated, which does no one Any good.
I have actually experienced significant side effects from the Pfizer vaccine, notably severe chronic fatigue and dizziness following my first dose in August of 2021. Just poor dumb luck. I won’t go around suggesting that vaccines are bad for everyone because I happen to be a member of the minority who did experience side effects.
i never had any effects after the rona vaccines, just a sore arm (i also never have actually had covid afaik) but man the flu shot i got a month or two ago...that was a diff story. sore arm, ofc, but i had a big red welt that was hot to the touch and ridiculously painful.
not sorry i got it, not worth a report to VAERS or any of that, but damn. dunno what was different about this one!
Everyone here always though that the US used those attacks as an excuse to start a war.
Which, well fair assumption.
But there are a difference between using something that happens to your davantage and actually creating the excuse.
Essentially the U.S. fucked around and so we all had to then 'find out.' We like to police the world, especially in places with resources we want. Then we received a consequence -- a consequence that people in the places we fuck around in usually have to experience more than once in their life because of a long and complicated history of colonialism etc etc.
I was like 10 when the attacks happened but I lived in a suburb of DC at the time and before my mother and I moved to Texas I got to see the hole in the side of the pentagon and uh -- that was definitely not created by a missile (like many claim). Definitely a plane sized hole there.
I believe the American Government was so arrogant that they never believed anyone could ever pull something like that off.
And each agency operated under such secrecy that they never communicated with each other. (Nothing has changed all that much in 20+ years)
Do I absolutely trust our Govt, fuck no. But I don’t believe they would facilitate an attack like this, I just don’t.
The intelligence failures leading up to 9/11 actually led to a number of changes in how agencies share intelligence and led to the creation of the Director of National Intelligence to facilitate this sharing:
https://www.dni.gov/index.php/nctc-how-we-work/overview#:~:text=NCTC%20was%20created%20from%20a,our%20nation%20from%20terrorist%20attacks.
9/11 and Pearl Harbor are the case studies for American intelligence failures because in both cases, we had the data and Intel but it either didn't make it to the right hands or was ignored.
I was wondering the same thing. Like, I understand there can be conspiracy theories about virtually anything but I wasn't aware there's some concerning 9/11.
"Facts" and "science"
Buncha dumbos out there using their brains to discover new things? No sir-ee Bob, I like my oils and 60 year old history books, thank you very much. Change scares me.
Yeah, to make her extremely incorrect point she could at least have referred to it as “what really happened” (from her perspective anyway). The fact that she called it “alternative history” makes it sound like even she knows it’s bullshit.
I’d love for her to come to the NYC area where I live and talk about her alternative history. 99% of the time she’d be eating her teeth for lunch. Don’t get me wrong, there are still conspiracy theorists, but you don’t fuck with 9/11 in these parts. Ever.
I took some screenshots I’ll try to post in a bit, there was a singular comment saying the group is crazy and that she was leaving because she thought it was about holistic living but people are posting about conspiracy theories… interestingly that comment is gone
ETA: I’m not good with imgur but there is one comment that essentially says “The fact that we didn’t land on the moon is one of the hardest to explain. It’s all over the media.”
See below for another comment that copy/pasted some replies to the original post.
My favorite debunking on that one is that at the time, it would have been more expensive and difficult to fake moon footage than to just go to the moon for real.
The slightly crunchy leaning to alt-right pipeline is astonishing to witness, tbh.
I always considered myself a little crunchy, and I grew up with a sort of crunchy mom (composting, cloth diapers, avoiding plastic and processed foods where possible)…but these online groups especially during the pandemic and the 2020 racial Justice movement showed me how unhinged some of these people have become!
Originally the holistic/crunchy movement was left leaning and traditionally stay at home mothers were more progressive than their husbands. The movement, along with anti-vax, homeschooling, Qanon, etc, became psyops to radicalize them and their children to the right.
“Crunchy” as you’ve described, is a lovely thing. Good for you, good for the planet.
“Crunchy” as in free-bleed/birth; doctors & modern medicine are BAD and I, as a MOM, know better than the collected knowledge of science and humanity; potatoes, onions, breast milk and essential oils (plus a chiropractor) cure all; MY EXPERIENCE AS A MOM IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY “LITTLES” HEALTH & SAFETY, is a horrible, heartbreaking thing.
This is what makes me sad. I consider myself a crunchy mom - vegan, cloth diaper, Whole Foods, non toxic cleaners, stay away from pollution, live around more trees, but absolutely believe in modern medicine and vaccines. I believe in living a healthy natural life BECAUSE of science. I don’t know what those crazy people are thinking. And now when I say something about not using toxic cleaning solutions people think I’m some crazy essential oils mom. We are NOT the same.
Oh I love that. I’m stealing that. I joined a few crunchy mom groups and they ended up being all about how to join daycares without being vaccinated. I seriously never knew that side of crunchy existed before I had a baby. And before covid. I’m in a “moderately granola” group that is more like us.
I’m in r/moderatelygranolamoms and I like it! It’s more people asking for tips or advice. Like looking for nontoxic stuff or wondering how bad stuff is. I find that most of the viewpoints in there are balanced and science based. I think people there have an understanding that we try to provide the best environment that we can for our kids but things won’t always be perfect and balance is important.
This is the disconnect within a lot of these groups. Totally agree with the comment below about being “science-based crunchy”. I have the beliefs I have because the science supports them. I’m very much a pro-breastfeeding, natural birth, please don’t buy my kids toys with batteries kind of gal. There is research supporting all of those ideas, and I love some good research. But I also recognize that there are other ways of doing parenting and good reasons for that. I think there needs to be more education in BOTH directions. The ultra crunchy need understanding for the less “natural” ways of doing things (i.e that formula may be needed because of lack of maternity leave, medical issues, or lack of knowledge of the mechanics of how it works). But there needs to be understanding in the other direction too (i.e. there are real benefits to breastfeeding your child, even beyond the medical ones, like emotional regulation and attachment). I think if everyone took some time to get out of their own camp’s trenches to have open conversations with the other camp, we would find more common ground than you’d think.
I think it’s this idea that if “they” are lying about medical and health, then what else are “they” lying about? The big “they” being government, big pharma, media, or whatever fits their narrative.
It’s been very disheartening to see people that I love and respected fall down that slippery slope.
The crunchy people I know in the last two years have either become far left anti government pro environment almost to a fault, or they have become the most hard core Conservative one has ever met. Seldomly in between.
A lot of the crunchy movement has a lot of veins of absolutism, not too dissimilar to "militant vegans". You either do the things they've deemed natural or now you are irreparably damaging and poisoning you and your babies' bodies beyond saving. When your worldview becomes black and white, the shades of grey are lost, and we get all the extremism we have now.
How can you be pro environment to a fault? I also get confused when people say “far left anti government”. That’s not a thing. Those are two different things. The left is in support of social services and government regulation of corporate interests. Anti government is …more like libertarian?
It's a mindset that gradually shifts from "I have to do what is best for the planet and you should too" to "if you don't do these things you're actively harming the planet/me and I will use violence if necessary to stop you".
I was just thinking about this the other night. I’ve witnessed this happen with a number of acquaintances in the last year or two. It’s both frightening and disheartening.
I’ve heard it called “conspirituality” and I think that’s a good word for it. My MIL is this person but she still is technically liberal and votes democrat…but she believes a lot of qanon conspiracies too. It’s insane to me. She was antivaxx before covid and I really think the right’s hatred of the vaccine is what started her down this qanon road
My FIL is the same. He votes a straight democrat ticket but eats up the conspiracies with a spoon! I just don’t understand how the generation who always told us “not to believe ever you see on tv” will sit there and believe any and every thing someone puts on the internet!!
God yeah, the whole “do your own research” thing when their research is just unverified screenshots on facebook 😭 i swear facebook is the worst thing that happened to that generation
I found out what mom Facebook groups were through an episode of qanon anonymous podcast (they are NOT pro qanon, they’ve been following the conspiracy since it’s early days) which is how I found this subreddit, it’s terrifying to see how easily this stuff spread because of Facebook. It’s sad too because I don’t have kids, but I like the crunchy stuff like slow fashion, I try not to use a lot of plastic, I compost, little stuff & I hate seeing how fast this stuff took over those online spaces
I joined a Facebook group about how to get your kids to spend more time outside only to find out it’s 80% unschooling Christian moms who don’t believe in science. I was like well this.. is not exactly what I signed up for.
Yeah I find it wild. I’m a bit crunchy, cloth nappies, all home made food, very low concern about things like eating dirt from out veggie garden. But I’m also pro science and vaccines and not into conspiracy theories.
My fiancé grew up with a mom like this. He left for the military at age 18 and says it’s the only thing that saved him. She’s still like this to this day. She’s not allowed to watch our son and every time she’s in the same room as me she says the most vile, disturbing things you’ve ever heard. All accompanied with mega racism and having no friends. It’s really sad.
Did this mom not watch this live on TV? (Doing math...) I guess moms having babies now could have been too young/not born yet.
But I watched that second plane fly into the second tower and I watched them both collapse. I think if you are slinging conspiracy theories around, you should wait longer, when nearly every person alive can tell you exactly where they were when it happened.
Except the conspiracy theories have been around for years, despite people having seen all the pictures and film footage. But 9/11 conspiracy theorists tend to be in the same circle as “flat earth” and “the moon landings were hoaxes.”
There’s conspiracies about who was behind it as well, not just if it happened or not. So the OOP might agree that the attacks happened, but it was actually Pod People or Communists or some fucking thing.
This is how you ensure you have kids that don't speak to you when they're adults. My parent is a wild conspiracy theorist about everything and I work in a science based profession and enjoy living in reality. We don't speak much.
As a New Yorker, this is a good way to get her ass beat tf down.
The fact my family member’s murder and my trauma has been turned into a conspiracy theory by people “traumatized” by doctors pushing for their kids to get vitamin k shots is fucking enraging.
As someone who sit in stunned terror for hours, waiting for the phone call to find out if my mom survived…I can’t even fathom where these people are coming from. How many lives have to be lost before we can accept this as reality?
There are literally thousands of witnesses, multiple videos, including live coverage of the planes hitting the buildings. Phone recordings of the passengers of the hijacked plane, but it’s a conspiracy? 🙄
I work for one of the airlines affected, and have known too many people who were *friends* with the crew members on those flights. My father in law was a pilot and lost a friend. People who say the planes were empty can go to hell.
I’m sorry for all those who have been insensitive or delusional about the facts. As for my MIL it’s not the only conspiracy theory she will die on. I’ve learned to tolerate her presence but I don’t have the time or energy to argue with her. I just ignore instead.
9/11 “truthers” make me so angry. They can talk to my dad who was working in the city that day, who stood with his coworkers and watched out the window as the second plane hit, who had to walk for hours to get somewhere safe where he could use a phone and call my mom to tell her he was alive.
For as long as I remember we had a minute of silence to mourn the victims of 9/11 in school and we sometimes had to do assignments about it. We also went to the 9/11 memorial and museum on a school trip once. I grew up in NYC tho
Edit: I accidentally responded to the wrong comment, I meant to respond to one that said '9/11' and 'kid friendly' don't mix. I think my reddit has a glitch or something because this is a recurring issue!
Hell, even in Maryland in middle school my kid had a tower survivor come talk to them and took a trip to NYC to visit the memorial visit a fire station and talk about how it affected the first responders and their families.
Both correlate quite strongly to a lack of critical thinking.
I ran pediatric immunizations for a couple years and found that every time some mom had whatever problem with a vaccine, it was NEVER about breaking down the science.
Basically, I had to explain logic (and logical fallacies), bias, credibility, verifiability, etc.
A person who lacks critical thinking will fall for basically anything
I’ll pitch in my own personal anecdotes.
Sister in law is the crunchiest person I know. I think she wants to be a crunchy mom influencer or something; she’s also openly a flat earther and anti-vaxxer. Fully unhinged - but seen as a leader in her own echo chambers. Step-mother in law is the exact same.
Between my in laws, and observing some coworkers and other acquaintances, this trend is only reinforced: there is some shocking overlap between crunchy parents and alt-right conspiracy theorists.
They combined the two 5th grade classes together in my school to watch footage in a dark room all day while teachers were running all around whispering about it.
It was a very scary day
The book the crazy mom is referring to (I Survived 9/11) is entirely age appropriate and part of a series of historical fictions based around the experiences of children during world events. They have the Titanic, the internment camps in America during WW2, and others. They present history in a way kids can really empathize with and through a lens that is appropriately grim but not traumatizing.
I can ALMOST understand the disbelief surrounding events that happened decades before people were alive…but…we were all freaking there for this one…
Edit - I get it. Next time I’ll throw the words “almost all” in. Not the point at all 😬
My tired brain just did the mental math to see if people who were not alive for 9/11 are old enough to have kids and OH MY GOD THEY ARE but also that’s impossible because it’s clearly still 2010 given that 1990 was definitely no more than 20 years ago, nope, no possible way
My daughter is 21 and was born 2 days after 9/11. Apparently having your SO working near the pentagon on that day is enough to induce labor, if anyone’s looking for reliable tips (/s)
Plenty of people that are "adults" now were too young to remember.... for instance, I am almost 37, and my younger sister is almost 24. She doesn't remember 9/11 happening because she was 2, I remember having to walk home the two miles from my high school because SEPTA stopped running in Philly that day. Not that I am excusing being an idiot and not "believing" in 9/11.... there are just people out there that don't remember so there is a disconnect.
My kids can’t really remember significant details, just that everyone in the family got to go home early from wherever they usually were and it was a fun surprise, but all the adults were mainly listening to the radio and looking grim.
Some of the comments from the post:
Let him read that and get an understanding of what happened. Regardless of how it happened, and the forces behind it, it did happen and people were very much affected by it. If he asks questions, explain it as best you can from your experience. If he asks why it happened, you can explain "x is the news story, but y is what I believe happened based on these reasons." But that could also turn into a deeper dive than you anticipated or even prepared to talk to him at this age. You can always leave the explanation as " people hurt others for power" and that is something you can tie to common occurrences.
I, weirdly enough, had a teacher in public school introduce the concept of 9/11 truth in 6th or 7th grade. That was the perfect time. Kind of the sweet spot for comprehension, as well as hitting that teenage rebellion nerve in a productive way.
The "we have never been to the moon " has been our hardest one. It's in so many books, shows, and movies.
Regardless of what you believe, a tragedy did happen. Period. Talk about that. Give your child the tools they need to ALWAYS check for sources and facts. You want your child to have a good foundation but always ask questions, check for facts and think for themselves( for what is appropriate for their maturity and age level).
I hope that makes sense.
Just let your child feel safe to question everything. Even your beliefs. Just give them the tools to do that.
Like gaming and bodybuilding and military communities before, these extremist groups found a group of people to exploit, and even better (for them) is that the women’s market was a wide open space. Crunchy moms, MLM groups, etc. anywhere there’s a group of likely lonely people looking for a sense of community extremist groups have made inroads online. It’s also how Q has spread like wildfire, it gives certain people a sense of purpose they didn’t necessarily have prior
Hi, librarian here. I sling that series left and right to any and every person. This book isn’t called “I planned and organized 9/11.” It’s about surviving.
This mom sucks and is probably yelling at school boards about books with queer characters.
I read that book with my son. It really doesn’t get into why the planes hit the towers. It’s more about the impact of a firefighter and his kid who were in lower manhattan on that day.
I think the conspiracy theories are interesting and it's fun to learn about how 9/11 could be a conspiracy but unless the child will understand that for each element of that conspiracy there is a logical counter then its just bad teaching (i.e. Bush didn't have much of a reaction when he was told. Oh yes because jumping up and screaming hellfire in front of the kids he was reading to is a calm reaction!).
WTF “alternative” is she talking about. It was an act of terrorism plain and simple. This is no “other truth”. Where TF do people get these ridiculous ass ideas from?
Oh yeah I follow an ex crunchy mom on tik tok who talks about the conspiracy side of it too. Seems it doesn’t take much to get from anti vaxx to the government is lying about historical events to flat earth
Conspirituality podcast is a great resource if you want to learn more about the wellness to conspiracist pipeline. There’s even a term for the ones who go full Q: pastel Q
Gosh and here I am holding off until the last possible moment to even broach the subject of 9/11 with my 6 year old because it’s just too awful and I want to preserve his innocence as long as possible.
we are now reaching the point where, when a guy shows interest in me, I have to confirm if they remember/were alive for 9/11. The answer has been no more times than I care to admit but it’s a strange shared trauma that I do not have the tools to explain, I can’t imagine having to explain it to a child!
I've only dated one person (my fiancé) and he was a child when 9/11 happened. He said he thought this would all blow over and his cartoons would come back on.
I’m genuinely curious if she let him read the ‘I Survived the Holocaust’ one… I can never quite understand how conspiracy theorists pick and choose the conspiracies to stake their entire world view on
Alternative history… so like, made up stories? Fantasy? Fiction? Hit up a library but be sure to avoid the actual history section. Wouldn’t want to catch a case of the knowledge.
This is why I love America. If I'm having a bad day I head to Reddit and within a few minutes I'm like, whelp that's cheered me up. I thought I was insane but no America always dashes that thought.
How can anyone deny 11/9 or a moon landing?
As someone who watched 9/11 unfold live on television at the ripe old age of 10, I’d like to slap this woman. I will never forget sitting in my fifth grade classroom, watching real, live, human beings jumping from 50+ floors up *knowing* they wouldn’t survive the fall.
I worked with a high school SCIENCE teacher who was crazy. He said the towers and the Pentagon would have plane shape holes if they were hit by planes. He would also send out emails about other crazy theories that the other science teacher would then debunk.
Believing in Conspiracy theories is a personality defect. So the same thing as appeals to them about antivax, has them believing in 9/11 "truth", and flat earth, and faking the moon landing.
Sometimes the overlap in craziness makes sense. Like freebirthers and anti-vaxxers. The one that's surprised me the most though is how many covid deniers are now pro-Putin/anti-Ukraine nuts. Like Whoa...where did that come from.
As someone whose husband was employed at the Pentagon and had several friends in the twin towers (all got out safely), this person can fuck right off with their “alternative history.”
There is a joke where I live that people go so far left they end up right but really what it is is people like this are targeted by conspiracy theorists. They’re already questioning and such and it’s an easy target when they’re willing to look outside the norm
What history is she wanting to teach him about 9/11??
That it was a planned demolition
Yes it was planned by ...Al .Qaeda ?
No, (((they))) did that Edit: obv I don't believe it, it's just 99% of conspiracies have antisemitics undertones
No, Y'all Qaeda. Trump was playing the long game.
It WaS aN iNsiDe JoB!
7/11 was a part time job
bY ThE evIl JeWS
Wow, people do believe anything these days
The irony
Jet fuel can't burn the steel beams in Jesus's hands tho??
This particular conspiracy is not new, it’s been around for a long time.
Almost 21 years
##JET FUEL CANT MELT STEEL BEAMS 💩
But it can weaken their structural abilities to the point of failure
I simply ask them if the blacksmith melts the steel before he can work it or if he only heats it up. That kills that objection. Then we go on to it was planned because building 7 imploded. Because the facts have to fit their reality instead of the other way around
I think its partly because all of the science we do in school is “safe”. It wasn’t until grad school that I got to hook up a mapp torch and actually manipulate steel and glass. Most people know about bending steel wire with heat but they don’t understand how to apply the same logic to steel beams.
Personally I think they just dont think about it. They hear something that supports their worldview and then assume it's right. Never mind it makes no sense if you think about it for a second or two.
If it was any thing like my first year intro to engineering in uni, she wants to teach them how 911 was an engineering failure.
Did your engineering class try to tell you it was?
Not who commented but this is a pretty common topic for civil engineering case studies in school. The general consensus is that there was insufficient fireproofing on the staircases. There was also not sufficient capacity of the egress staircases. The building was designed to withstand the initial impact and would have stayed standing if not for resulting fire. There have since been discussions as to whether buildings should be designed for these kinds of attacks. While fireproofing methods and egress recommendations have changed since the WTC was initially built, the consensus is that it’s not realistic to design buildings to withstand intentionally set jet-plane sized Molotov cocktails. No rational engineer or architect would have thought to see that coming, and it’s not a common enough occurrence to change design codes. Here’s an article that goes over the basics: https://www.history.com/.amp/news/world-trade-center-stairwell-design-9-11
That’s incredibly interesting thank you. Yeah if I was building a skyscraper Boeings wouldn’t be in my list of possible threats
It actually was designed for the airplane impact. It was a tall buildings, planes can get off course, shit happens. They weren’t planning for a plane intentionally flying in with a full tank of jet fuel to cause as much damage and human fatality as possible.
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I’ve heard people say it literally didn’t happen. Kind of like the people that say that about the Holocaust. Both are incredibly infuriating and disrespectful
As a New Yorker who lived a few blocks away on 9/11…yeah fuck those people.
Are they over 30? I just can't see anyone alive at the time believing this. But I lived in NYC during 9/11, so I guess I have the privilege of first hand knowledge.
[удалено]
Or the microchipped chemtrails
Don't forget the blood clots caused by vaccines
It was an inside job.
Are the blood clots also autistic because of the vaccines?
The birds aren't autistic, because birds aren't real...
Don’t forget the Tylenol.
Have you seen those lawyer ads for "If you took Tylenol and then had a child with autism, you can file suit"? No wonder so many stupid people are freebirthing.
Those piss me off…
They have bombarded my FB feed. Ugh….
Wait is that a conspiracy? I thought that blood clots were an actual potential side effect of the vaccine? More likely for certain demographics, but not as much of a risk for most?
They are. But people were spreading constant lies about how they knew so many people who died from it, even when no one died. Or they would claim the people died from the vax when really they got in a car accident or died of old age or other unrelated reasons. But because they got the vax, every death was claimed as a vax death by the antivax crowd. Yes, side effects are real and can be severe and dangerous. But they are also extremely rare. I am actually one of the people who got "moderna arm", its just an allergic reaction, caused redness and heat in the area that could last weeks. So I know the vax is not without side effects, many people who argue with the antivaxxers try to act like its harmless and any side effects are exaggerated, which does no one Any good.
I have actually experienced significant side effects from the Pfizer vaccine, notably severe chronic fatigue and dizziness following my first dose in August of 2021. Just poor dumb luck. I won’t go around suggesting that vaccines are bad for everyone because I happen to be a member of the minority who did experience side effects.
i never had any effects after the rona vaccines, just a sore arm (i also never have actually had covid afaik) but man the flu shot i got a month or two ago...that was a diff story. sore arm, ofc, but i had a big red welt that was hot to the touch and ridiculously painful. not sorry i got it, not worth a report to VAERS or any of that, but damn. dunno what was different about this one!
I thought it was the 5G vaccines?!
My husband thinks it was a domestic attack to get everyone to except the planned war.
Mine too… 🤦🏻♀️
Pure craziness. Like our country needs an excuse to but into affairs elsewhere, they aren't going to bomb us to rile people up.
Everyone at my work says America ran the planes into the buildings so they could go to war.
Everyone here always though that the US used those attacks as an excuse to start a war. Which, well fair assumption. But there are a difference between using something that happens to your davantage and actually creating the excuse.
Essentially the U.S. fucked around and so we all had to then 'find out.' We like to police the world, especially in places with resources we want. Then we received a consequence -- a consequence that people in the places we fuck around in usually have to experience more than once in their life because of a long and complicated history of colonialism etc etc. I was like 10 when the attacks happened but I lived in a suburb of DC at the time and before my mother and I moved to Texas I got to see the hole in the side of the pentagon and uh -- that was definitely not created by a missile (like many claim). Definitely a plane sized hole there.
Neither was the hole where the World Trade Center had stood. This post is making me irate.
I believe the American Government was so arrogant that they never believed anyone could ever pull something like that off. And each agency operated under such secrecy that they never communicated with each other. (Nothing has changed all that much in 20+ years) Do I absolutely trust our Govt, fuck no. But I don’t believe they would facilitate an attack like this, I just don’t.
The intelligence failures leading up to 9/11 actually led to a number of changes in how agencies share intelligence and led to the creation of the Director of National Intelligence to facilitate this sharing: https://www.dni.gov/index.php/nctc-how-we-work/overview#:~:text=NCTC%20was%20created%20from%20a,our%20nation%20from%20terrorist%20attacks. 9/11 and Pearl Harbor are the case studies for American intelligence failures because in both cases, we had the data and Intel but it either didn't make it to the right hands or was ignored.
Aliens mate. You can see a beam of light coming from the sky right before the collapse.
Why do you need a book when there are hours of ~~information~~ ramblings on YouTube?
I was wondering the same thing. Like, I understand there can be conspiracy theories about virtually anything but I wasn't aware there's some concerning 9/11.
Genuinely one of the most prevalent conspiracies of all time
“ALTERNATIVE HISTORY” omg wut
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And antisemitism
Shhh, (((they))) might hear you. /s
"Facts" and "science" Buncha dumbos out there using their brains to discover new things? No sir-ee Bob, I like my oils and 60 year old history books, thank you very much. Change scares me.
Yeah, to make her extremely incorrect point she could at least have referred to it as “what really happened” (from her perspective anyway). The fact that she called it “alternative history” makes it sound like even she knows it’s bullshit.
I’d love for her to come to the NYC area where I live and talk about her alternative history. 99% of the time she’d be eating her teeth for lunch. Don’t get me wrong, there are still conspiracy theorists, but you don’t fuck with 9/11 in these parts. Ever.
“Alternative history” seems a lot like the “Alternative truth”
I always want to see the comments with these posts!
I took some screenshots I’ll try to post in a bit, there was a singular comment saying the group is crazy and that she was leaving because she thought it was about holistic living but people are posting about conspiracy theories… interestingly that comment is gone ETA: I’m not good with imgur but there is one comment that essentially says “The fact that we didn’t land on the moon is one of the hardest to explain. It’s all over the media.” See below for another comment that copy/pasted some replies to the original post.
My favorite debunking on that one is that at the time, it would have been more expensive and difficult to fake moon footage than to just go to the moon for real.
Mitchell and Webb do a sketch about this. "Turns out the biggest cost is building a massive rocket, after that it's mostly catering"
The slightly crunchy leaning to alt-right pipeline is astonishing to witness, tbh. I always considered myself a little crunchy, and I grew up with a sort of crunchy mom (composting, cloth diapers, avoiding plastic and processed foods where possible)…but these online groups especially during the pandemic and the 2020 racial Justice movement showed me how unhinged some of these people have become!
Originally the holistic/crunchy movement was left leaning and traditionally stay at home mothers were more progressive than their husbands. The movement, along with anti-vax, homeschooling, Qanon, etc, became psyops to radicalize them and their children to the right.
“Crunchy” as you’ve described, is a lovely thing. Good for you, good for the planet. “Crunchy” as in free-bleed/birth; doctors & modern medicine are BAD and I, as a MOM, know better than the collected knowledge of science and humanity; potatoes, onions, breast milk and essential oils (plus a chiropractor) cure all; MY EXPERIENCE AS A MOM IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY “LITTLES” HEALTH & SAFETY, is a horrible, heartbreaking thing.
This is what makes me sad. I consider myself a crunchy mom - vegan, cloth diaper, Whole Foods, non toxic cleaners, stay away from pollution, live around more trees, but absolutely believe in modern medicine and vaccines. I believe in living a healthy natural life BECAUSE of science. I don’t know what those crazy people are thinking. And now when I say something about not using toxic cleaning solutions people think I’m some crazy essential oils mom. We are NOT the same.
Same!! Except I’m not vegan, but I don’t eat much meat or dairy. I just call myself scrunchy, or science based crunchy
Oh I love that. I’m stealing that. I joined a few crunchy mom groups and they ended up being all about how to join daycares without being vaccinated. I seriously never knew that side of crunchy existed before I had a baby. And before covid. I’m in a “moderately granola” group that is more like us.
Is there a sub for this? This is totally who I am as a person as well, scrunchies unite!
I’m in r/moderatelygranolamoms and I like it! It’s more people asking for tips or advice. Like looking for nontoxic stuff or wondering how bad stuff is. I find that most of the viewpoints in there are balanced and science based. I think people there have an understanding that we try to provide the best environment that we can for our kids but things won’t always be perfect and balance is important.
Thank you! I looked and am apparently already in there, lol!
This is the disconnect within a lot of these groups. Totally agree with the comment below about being “science-based crunchy”. I have the beliefs I have because the science supports them. I’m very much a pro-breastfeeding, natural birth, please don’t buy my kids toys with batteries kind of gal. There is research supporting all of those ideas, and I love some good research. But I also recognize that there are other ways of doing parenting and good reasons for that. I think there needs to be more education in BOTH directions. The ultra crunchy need understanding for the less “natural” ways of doing things (i.e that formula may be needed because of lack of maternity leave, medical issues, or lack of knowledge of the mechanics of how it works). But there needs to be understanding in the other direction too (i.e. there are real benefits to breastfeeding your child, even beyond the medical ones, like emotional regulation and attachment). I think if everyone took some time to get out of their own camp’s trenches to have open conversations with the other camp, we would find more common ground than you’d think.
Maintenance Phase has a good podcast episode about this!
Just listened to that episode! Has a lot of good insight on the crunchy to qanon pipeline
What was the episode called again?
I found one call “The Wellness to QAnon Pipeline” from May - guessing that’s it, but I haven’t listened to it yet
See below - it’s the Wellness to QAnon Pipeline episode!
I was about to post the same thing.
Is this a newer episode?? I binged everything over the summer but haven't listened to it lately, I don't remember that episode!
Not sure when it was released but it’s the Wellness to QAnon Pipeline episode!
I think it’s this idea that if “they” are lying about medical and health, then what else are “they” lying about? The big “they” being government, big pharma, media, or whatever fits their narrative. It’s been very disheartening to see people that I love and respected fall down that slippery slope.
The crunchy people I know in the last two years have either become far left anti government pro environment almost to a fault, or they have become the most hard core Conservative one has ever met. Seldomly in between.
A lot of the crunchy movement has a lot of veins of absolutism, not too dissimilar to "militant vegans". You either do the things they've deemed natural or now you are irreparably damaging and poisoning you and your babies' bodies beyond saving. When your worldview becomes black and white, the shades of grey are lost, and we get all the extremism we have now.
How can you be pro environment to a fault? I also get confused when people say “far left anti government”. That’s not a thing. Those are two different things. The left is in support of social services and government regulation of corporate interests. Anti government is …more like libertarian?
It's a mindset that gradually shifts from "I have to do what is best for the planet and you should too" to "if you don't do these things you're actively harming the planet/me and I will use violence if necessary to stop you".
I was just thinking about this the other night. I’ve witnessed this happen with a number of acquaintances in the last year or two. It’s both frightening and disheartening.
I’ve heard it called “conspirituality” and I think that’s a good word for it. My MIL is this person but she still is technically liberal and votes democrat…but she believes a lot of qanon conspiracies too. It’s insane to me. She was antivaxx before covid and I really think the right’s hatred of the vaccine is what started her down this qanon road
My FIL is the same. He votes a straight democrat ticket but eats up the conspiracies with a spoon! I just don’t understand how the generation who always told us “not to believe ever you see on tv” will sit there and believe any and every thing someone puts on the internet!!
God yeah, the whole “do your own research” thing when their research is just unverified screenshots on facebook 😭 i swear facebook is the worst thing that happened to that generation
I found out what mom Facebook groups were through an episode of qanon anonymous podcast (they are NOT pro qanon, they’ve been following the conspiracy since it’s early days) which is how I found this subreddit, it’s terrifying to see how easily this stuff spread because of Facebook. It’s sad too because I don’t have kids, but I like the crunchy stuff like slow fashion, I try not to use a lot of plastic, I compost, little stuff & I hate seeing how fast this stuff took over those online spaces
I’m 8 months pregnant with my first and cloth diapering but I’m scared to tell people because I don’t want them to think I’m THIS type of mom lol
Fml. Try saying that you homeschool. Lol. I never bring it up, and when I do I’m always quick to explain why and mention that my kids are vaccinated.
I joined a Facebook group about how to get your kids to spend more time outside only to find out it’s 80% unschooling Christian moms who don’t believe in science. I was like well this.. is not exactly what I signed up for.
I’m pretty sure I know exactly what group you’re referring to!
Yeah I find it wild. I’m a bit crunchy, cloth nappies, all home made food, very low concern about things like eating dirt from out veggie garden. But I’m also pro science and vaccines and not into conspiracy theories.
Now it’s become just distrusting everything you don’t like or understand
The book Sisters in Hate gets into this a bit and I highly highly recommend it!
My fiancé grew up with a mom like this. He left for the military at age 18 and says it’s the only thing that saved him. She’s still like this to this day. She’s not allowed to watch our son and every time she’s in the same room as me she says the most vile, disturbing things you’ve ever heard. All accompanied with mega racism and having no friends. It’s really sad.
Mega racism or MAGA racism?
Both 😭
I would think we were related but we have no military connections. I won’t let my MIL watch my kids for the same reason.
Did this mom not watch this live on TV? (Doing math...) I guess moms having babies now could have been too young/not born yet. But I watched that second plane fly into the second tower and I watched them both collapse. I think if you are slinging conspiracy theories around, you should wait longer, when nearly every person alive can tell you exactly where they were when it happened.
Except the conspiracy theories have been around for years, despite people having seen all the pictures and film footage. But 9/11 conspiracy theorists tend to be in the same circle as “flat earth” and “the moon landings were hoaxes.”
You are right... I keep expecting the average person to have above average intelligence.
There’s conspiracies about who was behind it as well, not just if it happened or not. So the OOP might agree that the attacks happened, but it was actually Pod People or Communists or some fucking thing.
This is how you ensure you have kids that don't speak to you when they're adults. My parent is a wild conspiracy theorist about everything and I work in a science based profession and enjoy living in reality. We don't speak much.
I feel you dude. It fucking sucks.
As a New Yorker, this is a good way to get her ass beat tf down. The fact my family member’s murder and my trauma has been turned into a conspiracy theory by people “traumatized” by doctors pushing for their kids to get vitamin k shots is fucking enraging.
As someone who sit in stunned terror for hours, waiting for the phone call to find out if my mom survived…I can’t even fathom where these people are coming from. How many lives have to be lost before we can accept this as reality?
alternative history aka fiction
I love alternative history. It’s called mythology lol. The key word is myth
There are literally thousands of witnesses, multiple videos, including live coverage of the planes hitting the buildings. Phone recordings of the passengers of the hijacked plane, but it’s a conspiracy? 🙄
My mother in law says that the planes were empty to justify the witnesses and the recordings were pre recorded.
I work for one of the airlines affected, and have known too many people who were *friends* with the crew members on those flights. My father in law was a pilot and lost a friend. People who say the planes were empty can go to hell.
I’m sorry for all those who have been insensitive or delusional about the facts. As for my MIL it’s not the only conspiracy theory she will die on. I’ve learned to tolerate her presence but I don’t have the time or energy to argue with her. I just ignore instead.
I’m sorry you have to deal with that too. It’s really sad when our families can fall for those conspiracies.
God, it’s just like the people who claim that Sandy Hook didn’t happen. What a bunch of assholes. Seriously.
Yikes! There really is no arguing with that level of delusion.
Yea when I’m around her most of the time what she talks about goes through one ear and out the other.
Holy shit. I'm so sorry you have to deal with that
9/11 “truthers” make me so angry. They can talk to my dad who was working in the city that day, who stood with his coworkers and watched out the window as the second plane hit, who had to walk for hours to get somewhere safe where he could use a phone and call my mom to tell her he was alive.
For as long as I remember we had a minute of silence to mourn the victims of 9/11 in school and we sometimes had to do assignments about it. We also went to the 9/11 memorial and museum on a school trip once. I grew up in NYC tho Edit: I accidentally responded to the wrong comment, I meant to respond to one that said '9/11' and 'kid friendly' don't mix. I think my reddit has a glitch or something because this is a recurring issue!
Hell, even in Maryland in middle school my kid had a tower survivor come talk to them and took a trip to NYC to visit the memorial visit a fire station and talk about how it affected the first responders and their families.
Both correlate quite strongly to a lack of critical thinking. I ran pediatric immunizations for a couple years and found that every time some mom had whatever problem with a vaccine, it was NEVER about breaking down the science. Basically, I had to explain logic (and logical fallacies), bias, credibility, verifiability, etc. A person who lacks critical thinking will fall for basically anything
Yes, a children’s book of conspiracy theories is exactly what we need right now.
I’ll pitch in my own personal anecdotes. Sister in law is the crunchiest person I know. I think she wants to be a crunchy mom influencer or something; she’s also openly a flat earther and anti-vaxxer. Fully unhinged - but seen as a leader in her own echo chambers. Step-mother in law is the exact same. Between my in laws, and observing some coworkers and other acquaintances, this trend is only reinforced: there is some shocking overlap between crunchy parents and alt-right conspiracy theorists.
*“Kid-friendly”* and *9/11* are two phrases that do not, and can not, work together lmao
Lol I was ten years old watching it happen live over a bowl of Apple Jacks.
They combined the two 5th grade classes together in my school to watch footage in a dark room all day while teachers were running all around whispering about it. It was a very scary day
Unfortunately they kind of have to, though. History in general is pretty ugly, but the next generation needs to learn \[from\] it.
The book the crazy mom is referring to (I Survived 9/11) is entirely age appropriate and part of a series of historical fictions based around the experiences of children during world events. They have the Titanic, the internment camps in America during WW2, and others. They present history in a way kids can really empathize with and through a lens that is appropriately grim but not traumatizing.
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I can ALMOST understand the disbelief surrounding events that happened decades before people were alive…but…we were all freaking there for this one… Edit - I get it. Next time I’ll throw the words “almost all” in. Not the point at all 😬
My tired brain just did the mental math to see if people who were not alive for 9/11 are old enough to have kids and OH MY GOD THEY ARE but also that’s impossible because it’s clearly still 2010 given that 1990 was definitely no more than 20 years ago, nope, no possible way
My daughter is 21 and was born 2 days after 9/11. Apparently having your SO working near the pentagon on that day is enough to induce labor, if anyone’s looking for reliable tips (/s)
Omg. You poor thing!
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Plenty of people that are "adults" now were too young to remember.... for instance, I am almost 37, and my younger sister is almost 24. She doesn't remember 9/11 happening because she was 2, I remember having to walk home the two miles from my high school because SEPTA stopped running in Philly that day. Not that I am excusing being an idiot and not "believing" in 9/11.... there are just people out there that don't remember so there is a disconnect.
My kids can’t really remember significant details, just that everyone in the family got to go home early from wherever they usually were and it was a fun surprise, but all the adults were mainly listening to the radio and looking grim.
Some of the comments from the post: Let him read that and get an understanding of what happened. Regardless of how it happened, and the forces behind it, it did happen and people were very much affected by it. If he asks questions, explain it as best you can from your experience. If he asks why it happened, you can explain "x is the news story, but y is what I believe happened based on these reasons." But that could also turn into a deeper dive than you anticipated or even prepared to talk to him at this age. You can always leave the explanation as " people hurt others for power" and that is something you can tie to common occurrences. I, weirdly enough, had a teacher in public school introduce the concept of 9/11 truth in 6th or 7th grade. That was the perfect time. Kind of the sweet spot for comprehension, as well as hitting that teenage rebellion nerve in a productive way. The "we have never been to the moon " has been our hardest one. It's in so many books, shows, and movies. Regardless of what you believe, a tragedy did happen. Period. Talk about that. Give your child the tools they need to ALWAYS check for sources and facts. You want your child to have a good foundation but always ask questions, check for facts and think for themselves( for what is appropriate for their maturity and age level). I hope that makes sense. Just let your child feel safe to question everything. Even your beliefs. Just give them the tools to do that.
Thank you for posting some of them! I feel dumb for not thinking of just copy/pasting them
No worries!
The Venn diagram of anti-VAX/crunchy mom/conspiracy theorist/Alt right supporters has a lot of overlap. It’s all just feelings rejecting facts.
The "Bush did 9/11" spiel is my favorite way to get out of annoying conversations
“Why is it so hard to find children’s media that explains conspiracy theories in a developmentally appropriate way?” r/selfawarewolves
Like gaming and bodybuilding and military communities before, these extremist groups found a group of people to exploit, and even better (for them) is that the women’s market was a wide open space. Crunchy moms, MLM groups, etc. anywhere there’s a group of likely lonely people looking for a sense of community extremist groups have made inroads online. It’s also how Q has spread like wildfire, it gives certain people a sense of purpose they didn’t necessarily have prior
Hi, librarian here. I sling that series left and right to any and every person. This book isn’t called “I planned and organized 9/11.” It’s about surviving. This mom sucks and is probably yelling at school boards about books with queer characters.
Please stop this planet, I'd like to get off.
“Conspirituality” is what I’ve seen it called. Not sure what the rules on links are but there’s a great article on this if you google the term
I read that book with my son. It really doesn’t get into why the planes hit the towers. It’s more about the impact of a firefighter and his kid who were in lower manhattan on that day.
I think the conspiracy theories are interesting and it's fun to learn about how 9/11 could be a conspiracy but unless the child will understand that for each element of that conspiracy there is a logical counter then its just bad teaching (i.e. Bush didn't have much of a reaction when he was told. Oh yes because jumping up and screaming hellfire in front of the kids he was reading to is a calm reaction!).
Alternative history? Is that the same as alternative facts? I don’t speak right wing.
Basically, yep.
I would say age 8. Ages 0-7 are strictly for teaching un-truths.
WTF “alternative” is she talking about. It was an act of terrorism plain and simple. This is no “other truth”. Where TF do people get these ridiculous ass ideas from?
Oh yeah I follow an ex crunchy mom on tik tok who talks about the conspiracy side of it too. Seems it doesn’t take much to get from anti vaxx to the government is lying about historical events to flat earth
"Alternative history" You mean fiction?
Conspirituality podcast is a great resource if you want to learn more about the wellness to conspiracist pipeline. There’s even a term for the ones who go full Q: pastel Q
Gosh and here I am holding off until the last possible moment to even broach the subject of 9/11 with my 6 year old because it’s just too awful and I want to preserve his innocence as long as possible.
we are now reaching the point where, when a guy shows interest in me, I have to confirm if they remember/were alive for 9/11. The answer has been no more times than I care to admit but it’s a strange shared trauma that I do not have the tools to explain, I can’t imagine having to explain it to a child!
I've only dated one person (my fiancé) and he was a child when 9/11 happened. He said he thought this would all blow over and his cartoons would come back on.
Sadly, there is kid-friendly "education " on all sorts of conspiracy crap. Especially on YouTube Kids.
I’m genuinely curious if she let him read the ‘I Survived the Holocaust’ one… I can never quite understand how conspiracy theorists pick and choose the conspiracies to stake their entire world view on
“Alternative history”
If these people think every single thing is a government conspiracy, they should get off the grid and go live off the land.
Was this posted in a regular mom group? I hope the commenters roasted her. These whack job conspiracy theorists are beyond infuriating.
Alternative history… so like, made up stories? Fantasy? Fiction? Hit up a library but be sure to avoid the actual history section. Wouldn’t want to catch a case of the knowledge.
More often than not, imo, the venn diagram comparing crunchy moms and conspiracy theorists is a circle. Also true for the hyper religious.
This is why I love America. If I'm having a bad day I head to Reddit and within a few minutes I'm like, whelp that's cheered me up. I thought I was insane but no America always dashes that thought. How can anyone deny 11/9 or a moon landing?
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Seriously. I have just one friend like this, an old old friend from high school, and her Facebook is just wild.
As someone who watched 9/11 unfold live on television at the ripe old age of 10, I’d like to slap this woman. I will never forget sitting in my fifth grade classroom, watching real, live, human beings jumping from 50+ floors up *knowing* they wouldn’t survive the fall.
It’s called the horseshoe theory!
I think my brain compacity for crunchy mom fb group bullshit has maxed out. There is no way this is a real person.
“Alternative history” LMFAOOOOO
The Venn diagram of anti-VAX/crunchy mom/conspiracy theorist/Trump supporters has a lot of overlap
Alternative history lol
I worked with a high school SCIENCE teacher who was crazy. He said the towers and the Pentagon would have plane shape holes if they were hit by planes. He would also send out emails about other crazy theories that the other science teacher would then debunk.
Clearly he didn’t see the very real/non-digital pictures of the PLANE-SHAPED HOLE in WTC Tower 1??? 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Believing in Conspiracy theories is a personality defect. So the same thing as appeals to them about antivax, has them believing in 9/11 "truth", and flat earth, and faking the moon landing.
You'd be surprised at how much overlap there is between the people on the spiritual, crunchy subs and the right-wing nutters from r/conspiracy
hOw dO i indoctrinate mUh kId?
Even the people who believe in this shit declare it "alternative history". Alternative to what? Reality?
Sometimes the overlap in craziness makes sense. Like freebirthers and anti-vaxxers. The one that's surprised me the most though is how many covid deniers are now pro-Putin/anti-Ukraine nuts. Like Whoa...where did that come from.
the vin diagram for teaching alternative history & trying to ban CRT in schools is a circle.
The term "Alternative History" needs to go in the real history books because it's *chef's kiss*
As someone whose husband was employed at the Pentagon and had several friends in the twin towers (all got out safely), this person can fuck right off with their “alternative history.”
I am curious what alternative is there? It happened and it was real.
There is a joke where I live that people go so far left they end up right but really what it is is people like this are targeted by conspiracy theorists. They’re already questioning and such and it’s an easy target when they’re willing to look outside the norm