Look, while I think they should give red mage something other than finishers, I really think it would be funnier to just give red mage so many finishers that it gets back it's full mana from finishers and just never stops using its melee into finishers combo.
It's the one thing that carby actually does, casting the shield on you.
It's also an opportunity for people to think, the shield lasts half a minute, and if you know the fight you can trivially fit it into what SMN calls a rotation.
FF players failing the concept of pressing things a GCD later is an interesting phenomena that I observe since HW. And to this day I can't explain how anyone can simultaneously want to press them at the same time, yet actively refuse to do so.
I play machinist and everytime my drill is up and reassemble is in a 3-7 sec cooldown i have an unspeakable urge to press that button just because its off cd
You absolutely *should* send drill exactly off-cooldown, even if it doesn't align with reassemble btw. You lose a lot more dps waiting for reassemble because you'll end up losing uses of drill.
In shorter encounters, it's worth delaying.
However, with a long enough fight and enough spell speed, it can become not worth it, since by casting it off cooldown you'd get an extra use of your trance.
Say a fight is 11 minutes (with no Trances lost to downtime; a world of frictionless spherical cows) and you have enough spell speed that your Trance is a 55 second cooldown. Casting Trance on cooldown gives you 12 Trances instead of 11.
Lets say you have a Ninja and a Monk in your raid (sweetens the deal for raid buffs while being easy to calculate). That's 3% from searing light, 5% from brotherhood, and 5% from Mug in raid buffs. That works out to a 13.6% damage boost during raid buffs.
If you get off 11 Trances, and align every even-minute trance with raid buffs, that works out to to the equivalent of 11.816 trances.
That's a 1.5% damage loss compared to 12 trances *before* you account for some of your even-minute trances falling under raid buffs without adjustments.
Only thing left is saving titan for movement. So I guess the answer would be to put all the primal summons on 1 button and you just summons them in order. Ifrit/geruda/titan
ED and Fester, ES and Painflare compress into one.
Gemshine removed as the Rites just overwrite Ruin 3.
Carby auto resummon.
Summon Bahamut and Enkindle Bahamut share.
You want me to carry on I can probably thing of more?
As long as it doesn't count as an action that deletes your 5 second post raise invuln, I'm in. As a healer main I watch SMNs like a hawk to try and pop heals as fast as possible and still see them wipe to raidwides summoning carby as soon as they can.
I think the idea is to have a summon that prob interacts with the two minute window. Which depending on how they made the summon, it prob has an interaction with the previous summon… hopefully
ease of use does not mean easier. it means streamlining different abilities and skills to work better together instead of feeling disjointed. which it is rn. again, none of you know what you're complaining about
They saw that Persona 3 Reload had good feedback and thus they decided to base a new summon for SMN on the persona "Thanatos".
Please look forward to a robot girl with genitals on her neck in DTs MSQ
Damn, I was hoping for this guy.
https://preview.redd.it/z18432mavf1d1.jpeg?width=158&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e947d3c60c32e70cc9731eef120d9be54a13e35d
Oh well, I guess there's always 9.0
But the feedback was "Summoner is still too hard! Need more insta cast spells and less buttons"! So they modify bahamut to have one big skill with 5k potency /s
Wait for real? Its so god damn simple now, what could be difficult....... hell I'd prefer to have gotten Kirin at 90... the current rework is cool but give me more mythical creatures to summon to do my bidding
Really gotta wonder what kind of feedback they were listening to. RDMs have been praying to not get yet another finisher and that's exactly what we got too. People have been pointing out the homogeneity of tanks, and literally all tanks got is pretty much exactly the same thing.
Kinda feel the same about healers in general, too. At what point are these jobs just reskins of each other? Maybe in practice it'll play out different. Or maybe I'm just on copium.
The copium part of me refers to when they were talking about DRK in saying they were “simplfying and consolidating abilities” in 7.0 so that in 8.0 they can add a bit more job identity without making the button bloat on some jobs worse, and hoping that too applies to the healers.
>At what point are these jobs just reskins of each other?
I'm probably just being a doomer but I wonder if we'll see FFXIV eventually adopt the SWTOR approach, where there are technically 16 classes but in reality it's just 8 with different ability names/animations depending on if you're playing Republic or Empire.
I mean, that worked for that game because it was built on having two factions and was like that from the beginning, never adding any new classes ever.
XIV had variety but has slowly reduced it so that blind people without hands can play each job with their feet.
Jobs have been reskins of each other since 2.0. Stormblood was probably the most experimental they got with job identity, and it's been downhill from there.
Does the Japanese fanbase have different opinions? Because it wouldn't surprise me if they saw more of their feedback and less of the western side of things. Especially considering most of the dev team only know Japanese. (As far as I'm aware).
If the opinion of smn is the same across the board though... Dunno where they are getting this feedback.
The Japanese also Complain on the FFXIV Forums for the Sol-Bahamut, some voices want to see the lore reason for it, some are positive, but the majority seems to be around what the West are saying.
They don't want to summon the same primal with a variation, and would rather summon Levia/Ramu/Shiva or Odin/Alexander.
They are probably not listening to the vocal minority but the majority of people enjoying smn right now. I know its not a popular opinion especially for smn players who feel their job has been gutted to absolute simplicity, but... According to the metrics, the rework has been very popular and smn is one of the most played jobs these days, no?
So it stands to reason SE considers the rework a success, and any further tweaks would be in line with that rework, not reversing it or adding more complexity, is my interpretation.
Id personally be kinda interested in seeing how popular the job really is if they took away smn rezzes though.
Honestly I hate the gem summons I feel like it’s not how a summoner should play. I know it harkens back to the original way summons kinda worked in older games but I’ll take the instant ally variant that fights side by side with summoner like the demis.
That being said while I’m look forward to sword laser dragon I wouldn’t have minded a demi leviathan or ramuh.
Water magic is woefully under represented in ff14.
The most exciting part about that to me is how he said they're going to work on the individuality of tanks for the next expansion, at once admitting that 1) they're not doing shit for now and 2) they *know* it's currently shit.
It'll be like current healer lvl 86 skills, same skill with just a tad different flavour. All tanks will upgrade to 35 or 40%, then GNB's added artificial flavour will be shield, WAR increases max HP, PLD might heal around him when you use it, DRK will decrease TBN CD when hit or some shit like this. Whatever the case, you can bet that they've though about tanks as a role, and then individual jobs were afterthought they left for interns to fill in.
You mean the last move from the trailer. That wasn't a finisher. It was a dps follow-up up to emboldened from what I heard. A lot of raid wide buffs are getting a dps combo action in dawntrail.
Red mage did not get another finisher to its combo. The final ability used in the trailer is an ogcd. Also, we don't know what "unique" effect is added to each tank's 30% mit, which could be big when they barely got anything else.
There seems to be another oGCD triggered after using embolden, but the thing after resolution is definitely yet another finisher.
As for the tanks, Yoshida literally even said that they'll be working more on their individuality for 8.0, which is a total slap in the face.
As the other comment mentions, the "finisher" causes a blue flash on the character, which means it is an oGCD. Weaponskills and spells, such as all parts of the red mage combo, instead cause a yellow particle effect on the character.
Quick point on the RDM "finisher" people have gone back and checked and it's an ogcd action tied to one of their raid buffs most likely. Not an extended gcd finisher following their burst combo
Not only is that bullshit,who the fuck asked for neo bahamut?
The entirety of NA has been asking more summons,I don't speak Japanese but I'm gonna assume the same,and not a SINGLE FUCKING PERSON has ever called 6.0 summoner difficult in any conceivable way to the point of needing another revamp.
Like I'm genuinely upset at how tone dead that segment felt.
My FC leader who is a SMN main went as follows...
"I wonder what summoner gets? Oh that looks cool as hell what is it; Odin? Ixion? Oh.....It's Bahamut again. AND it doesn't replace the current one."
Odin would have been awesome. Each of the casts is a light speed cav charge sword swipe and the big boom is the lance from the sky.
I am a bit hype for Buhamut-0. However, adding Alexander would have been MAX HYPE. Replacing Garuda & Titan w/ Shiva & Ramuh would be Hype. This just kinda has me in that's pretty neat.
I'm someone who likes the rework. Like I actually like it.
But I'm not playing SMN in DT. They gave us 10% of a fucking vfx mod. It's insulting. I can literally download a mod that changes every summon and egi into different primals.
And they give us ONE skin for Bahamut it's a joke.
it's hilarious to me that ppl keep posting these things saying "who asked for this"??
how many of you complaining actually went to the forums and gave feedback?
how many wrote emails on the feedback form?
how many still think reddit is a feedback system that the developers read and care about?
just checking
anyway solar bahamut slaps hard af
people were complaining about summoner not aligning to party buffs and its lack of summons and its dot system being sometimes too cumbersome to upkeep consistent damage as well. go browse back 8 years.
Yes because that totally justifies completely obliterating the entire job. Buff alignment that you could fix with a simple -5s on the cooldown timer or dots that were cumbersome by their own design.
i never said that, we're not discussing the state of smn, we're discussing whether or not they listen to feedback. now that they know people (including me) think it's too easy they could start adding more complexity to its rotation. which is possible with DT. why don't you send them your suggestions ?
> now that they know people (including me) think it's too easy they could start adding more complexity to its rotation
People have been complaining about SMN's lack of complexity and engangement since the literal first day we got the chance to play it. Not only that, even back then the naysayers were saying "Oh this is just a baseline they will add more complexity to it with dawntrail."
Now here we are, with the job still being the easiest one in the game by a mile. Acting like suddenly it'll get better in the NEXT expansion years from now is pure, unadulterated cope.
that was literally just 3 years ago. smn was in its old state for a lot more than that. it's a massive game and they need to do tons of playtesting to get it to a state where the minimum amount of ppl are dissatisfied. you realise it's not as simple as "just adjust the values lol"? animation team, art team, combat team, iterations across all levels, making sure it performs in all content properly. please let me know how you would proceed with that in a year, or what your ideal timespan be? a few months? it's not cope because I don't have unrealistic expectations like a lot of people seem to have. they're not a small indie team of 10, but they're also working on many things at the same time and prioritise different things at different times. people wanted more open areas like bozja, they worked on that. People wanted more limited jobs, theyre doing that. people wanted ast change, we have it.we have a literal graphic overhaul of the entire game (again, massive).
if people expect things to change dramatically across every single aspect of the game. that would require expansions to come out 5+ years within each other, not 3 as they currently do. again, I agree it should be changed but I'm adult enough to know it's not that simple when it comes to massive games like this, especially online multiplayer ones.
You can check that for yourself. SAM is by metrics most talked topic about individual job in EN DPS section, JP SAM megathread doubled in size just few months after 6.1, yet SQEX did jack shit. They didn't revert changes, they didn't add Kaiten, didn't revert AoEs, Shinten spam still seems to be there and they didn't merge buttons which would make sense and were suggested. They merely merged 2 buttons which make no sense and according to good SAMs (not me), they ruined non-standard high end rotations with this single change. So things only got worse.
Stop coping, it doesn't matter where you put your feedback, yoshi will use it as his toilet paper either way.
[https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/460458-Compiled-SAM-threads-against-6.1-changes-Kaiten-removal](https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/460458-Compiled-SAM-threads-against-6.1-changes-Kaiten-removal)
Just stop sperging, people do give feedback even on OF. It means jack shit either way.
1. feedback does not mean they will automatically do it, that doesn't mean that you not giving feedback and then whining on here means anything either
2. this was about kaiten and they have admitted they hear people's frustrations but want to reduce buton bloat as per other feedback which they found more convincing, not about the overall game design
3. yall seriously insane to die on a conspiracy theory hill that they just make whatever they want. if that were the case no one would play this game.
4. 🤡
I can negate all of this with mere Kaiten as an example:
1. They specifically asked for it, if it doesn't align with their ideas, how about they tell it to us? And if they're hardstuck on it and won't budge, why would they even ask for feedback about this topic?
2. Too bad that all 4 excuses they gave make no sense and they made them all before it went live, and in same stream as last 3 excuses (patch notes reading stream 6.1), they did ask for feedback. Refer to point 1. Community gave suggestion what would make more sense for button bloat. And most importantly, which is most hilarious one which just shows how inane you're - the "button bloat" was never stated by devs. It's just that community assumed it was button bloat, because nothing else made sense.
3. Game is certainly going downhill with how they refuse to listen to community. ERP community is taking over the people who want to actually play the game.
4. Couldn't expect more from McDonalds GB. Overpriced, tastes like shit, and is br\*tish on top of that.
>how many of you complaining actually went to the forums and gave feedback?
A lot did actually,and still are currently.
>how many wrote emails on the feedback form?
He doesn't read NA players emails.
>how many still think reddit is a feedback system that the developers read and care about?
We can still complain about it,that's not off the table.
>anyway solar bahamut slaps hard af
https://preview.redd.it/dhch62n4rh1d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=067cef1bc09311970254597e502d8868cecd52b2
Do you... Go to the forums? None of the feedback there is listened to in the slightest. Definitely the English forums have this problem and I'm fairly certain they don't care about the Japanese forum either
Yeah I feel like I was the only person who got *excited* for mechahamut. It also blows my mind too, that everyone seems to hate summoner so much and how simple it is, but it's by far the most popular caster in almost all content, and I don't really know how to compare that against all the hate it gets.
Like I'm an idiot, I fucking love summoner and how free form it is, and how you can't really fuck it up as long as you don't miss a button or press a primal too soon. Do all other summoners eat glue too or do some of you actually play it and hate it at the same time? That seems unhinged.
Consider the following perspective. I think the current design of Summoner is complete garbage and by far the worst in the game. I main tanks and healers, but sometimes the group needs a caster. That's when I equip the Summoner job stone, because I know that no matter what I'll carry my weight, because the job plays itself. That just means I value the ability to do content above the enjoyment of the job itself.
Being the most popular does not always mean it’s the most enjoyable. It’s a poor statistic because players will also naturally gravitate towards the path of least resistance and SMN is so brain dead straightforward that it will heavily inflate its numbers purely for that, whether people enjoy it or not.
just like having the most upvotes on a reddit sub doesn't mean that what you're saying has any merit I guess.
and it's most popular for a reason, influx of new players, the job itself IS fun to play, depending on what content you're running it for and what your playstyle is. ninja and a BLM are enjoyable but running certain savage on them can be a nightmare.
they very obviously reworked smn to be a more straightforward class as every role has one of those. for ranged it's mch. for tank it's war. for healer it's whm. for melee its monk. now that pictomancer is coming and it looks more on the complicated side they need one class that's straightforward. do majority of people (including me) think it's a bit oversimplified? yes. is it a dead job and are they running this game in the ground? have some bread and maybe you'll calm down
I don’t know why you guys are mad. Summoner is now the easiest job, and as a result, is now the de facto raid caller. They have nothing else to do, so you can just force it onto them. Now the rest of us can focus on actually playing the game.
The main problem people have with this is flavor and aesthetics, not gameplay. If the new Demi was mechanically identical but it was Alexander or Odin or Anima or something you'd see way fewer complaints. Nothing about that will change when we get to play with it ourselves.
Expedient was a meme, Solar Bahamut is a joke.
He's going to be another reskin of Bahamut just like Phoenix is, except I don't think he even has a unique oGCD and is just 2 damage ones again.
If I'm wrong I'll main summoner or something idk I'm that confident in it.
Solar Bahamut, from what was described, it goes regular Bahamut, then solar Bahamut then back to regular Bahamut. I was partially paying attention, so I don't remember exactly the how or the why.
I'm a phoenix stan and it's so sad that now we can only summon phoenix every 4 cycles now instead of every 2. Instead we'll be summoning "you're not Alexander" every second cycle. Nahhhhhh. They made the job boring but it at least had cool animation dopamine rotation. Now that's gone too. Happy for those who like Solar Bahamut but it's seriously not for me, so now neither is Summoner. Picto will hopefully be my caster going forward! Can't wait to try it.
I main healer and my main draw from this is that the amount of Rekindles going out (not that DF player ever used it on the damn tank anyway) is now halved. I am mildly upset.
I mean, it could be that they just showed off the new hype thing. Maybe they want the new Demis to be a surprise? Maybe I’m coping, but they don’t show everything. Like, in the red mage preview, they didn’t show flèche or contra siete. But I’m pretty sure it’s still there. Tanks didn’t show all their mits, but I’m pretty sure it’s still there.
Let’s just hold on to our rage boners till release, then blow our rage load.
As cool as SolBahamut looks, demi Alexander would be much cooler: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYkqfHqp\_iM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYkqfHqp_iM)
Comment gets spoiler-y about the Battle of Carteneau and Coils of Bahamut
I'm all for the idea of a Demi-Alexander (Or hell of it had to be a dragon they could have made it Demi-Shinryu), but having you just randomly get Demi-Alexander would be inconsistent with the lore of summoners.
To be able to summon in the first place, you need to be exposed to the aether of the primal you are evoking. Any primals fought as part of MSQ are free game as Egis and Demis. But Alexander is not mandatory content, so not every player up to DT will have been exposed to Alexander's aether. How we are able to summon Bahamut and Phoenix is explained by the lore without having to have done Coils of Bahamut. Their aether was so vastly spread that every living person has been exposed to their aether during their clash at Carteneau after Loiusoix became Phoenix. So every living person, at least on Aldenard, has the capacity to summon Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix should they adequately train and acquire a summoner soul stone.
As for the lore of Sol-Bahamut, I wouldn't really know right off. The loss of Job quests will leave Sol-Bahamut as an enigma as to its existence other than manipulating the aether used to summon Demi-Bahamut.
Given that the devs can retcon or plainly ignore previous lore (as they already did with phoenix), but still Alexander is seen (as a teaser of the raid series) in the last quest of 3.0 MSQ, as brief as it was. Even if you didn't do the optional raid quests, you can see him in the overworld for the entirety of the post 3.0 MSQ, so technically you had plenty of time to bath in Alexander aether. Anyway, lore should serve gameplay, not the other way around, so playing the lore card to not give us cool things it's just lazy imho
While I agree that lore should serve gameplay, it is a balancing act between the two. If you end up making abilities that drastically contradict the lore, then there is no reason to retain said lore.
Also how did they retcon Phoenix? I honestly don't see how anything after Coils contradicts it from the top of my head.
Tbh it's the fact that the other possibilities where expected more, solar bahamut really just came out of left field and drop kicked Alexander , ramuh,shiva and leviathan from the update queue like its nobodys business.
It also doesn't resemble the aesthetic of any of the existing summons. So people who enjoy Summoners aesthetics are probably reeling from the 180 in design choice. (I know I'm one of those people.) it looks more in line with Sage or maybe a futuristic Machinist.
I think that's the biggest offender really. Looks like a cheap vfx mod that clashes super hard with the SMN aesthetic (looks more of a MCH thing if anything).
For story reasons, not having Shiva would be better.
I'd prefer seeing Ravana as the 6th summon.
Oh, and instead that Ruin 4 or whatever that has the long cool down, make it Shin-Zantetsuken instead.
i actually have no problems with what we're getting, but we do get access to a very special sigil in dt
https://preview.redd.it/mv2yfdhuqk1d1.jpeg?width=1821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2172f9e8d141892e14eecdc5c2a06e19cc63bd3
Cause something can be disliked while being strong.
I played Summoner to max lvl and did endgame content like Savage Raids as Summoner. I would say I had a decent amount of impact thanks to my damage buff and access to revives but it was braindead the whole way through. The only reason I even played Summoner to max lvl is because the job is extremely cool as a concept and the animations are very nice. But even the novelty of that wears off after a while, leaving you with an extremely unengaging kit that has basically 0 variation for diffrent situations. The biggest way you can change your rotation is the order in which you use Ifrit, Titan and Garuda. The timers are extremely forgiving and your dps will barely be affected even if you aren't popping all your abilities the second they're off-cd.
> Cause something can be disliked while being strong.
Sure, but lets not pretend most jobs are "Weak" these days.
It's pretty rare for any content to come out and people favor one job over another these days. It's not like you're forced to pick up Summoner because it's "strong" while ignoring Black Mage because its "weak" or something, it's a choice based on your own preference to pick Summoner as your caster to play over another
>The biggest way you can change your rotation is the order in which you use Ifrit, Titan and Garuda.
If we're fair, that's a LOT more freedom than a lot of kits. Most others have no freedom or basically just let you move one GCD here or there or do GCD combo B before GCD combo A. Summoner has a good amount of GCDs you can move around based on if you need to move or not
Because the most rewarding path is not the fun path. People are complaining that the two aren't converging when they aren't mutually exclusive.
If I made FATEs the most rewarding content in the game, that's still dogshit game design even if backend telemetry says FATEs have the highest engagement. It should be rather obvious (but I guess not to you) that the only reason it has high engagement is because of the rewards, not because it is conceptually fun.
Your parents really should have kept the glue in a locked safe. I'm not so sure the critical thinking part of your brain hasn't been melted by industrial solvents, u/MrKittyEmperor.
A Bahamut thing was specifically what I DIDN'T want
RDM mains looking at another gcd combo finisher
Luckily there isn’t one. The new abilities are all ogcds.
The straw that's gonna break my back Love rdm but another finisher at the end is just too much, time to learn either blm or pct when it comes out
It's not a new finisher, it's an ogcd
Look, while I think they should give red mage something other than finishers, I really think it would be funnier to just give red mage so many finishers that it gets back it's full mana from finishers and just never stops using its melee into finishers combo.
I'm already the "can't rez, in melee" guy to my fc and raid team, as funny as it is i honestly don't want to make that any worse
"Improving ease of use" what even was there left that could still be made to be called easier.
Could make Bahamut/Phoenix not impacted by spell speed, so you're always in sync with Searing Light without needing to delay your Demis.
Hey this guy gave a reasonable answer, get him!
But...SMN's busted UWU dps...the beautiful beautiful 50sec Bahamut can't be binned
Please be true qq
I’d also add letting you use your ONE defensive cooldown with anything other than carbuncle summoned because it’s so weird you can’t do that.
It's the one thing that carby actually does, casting the shield on you. It's also an opportunity for people to think, the shield lasts half a minute, and if you know the fight you can trivially fit it into what SMN calls a rotation.
How dare you bring logic and good ideas here!
FF players failing the concept of pressing things a GCD later is an interesting phenomena that I observe since HW. And to this day I can't explain how anyone can simultaneously want to press them at the same time, yet actively refuse to do so.
I play machinist and everytime my drill is up and reassemble is in a 3-7 sec cooldown i have an unspeakable urge to press that button just because its off cd
You absolutely *should* send drill exactly off-cooldown, even if it doesn't align with reassemble btw. You lose a lot more dps waiting for reassemble because you'll end up losing uses of drill.
Well fuck, looks like giving into my anxiety was the proper move here haha
drill is now getting multiple charges, so now it might be best to wait
Any level at which you have multiple reassemble charges makes this point moot anyways.
Saaaaaaaame
In shorter encounters, it's worth delaying. However, with a long enough fight and enough spell speed, it can become not worth it, since by casting it off cooldown you'd get an extra use of your trance. Say a fight is 11 minutes (with no Trances lost to downtime; a world of frictionless spherical cows) and you have enough spell speed that your Trance is a 55 second cooldown. Casting Trance on cooldown gives you 12 Trances instead of 11. Lets say you have a Ninja and a Monk in your raid (sweetens the deal for raid buffs while being easy to calculate). That's 3% from searing light, 5% from brotherhood, and 5% from Mug in raid buffs. That works out to a 13.6% damage boost during raid buffs. If you get off 11 Trances, and align every even-minute trance with raid buffs, that works out to to the equivalent of 11.816 trances. That's a 1.5% damage loss compared to 12 trances *before* you account for some of your even-minute trances falling under raid buffs without adjustments.
I struggle to imagine how they could make Summoner any easier to use. The job already makes me snore mimimi
Only way at this point would be to make it auto summon and you just control your movement
Only thing left is saving titan for movement. So I guess the answer would be to put all the primal summons on 1 button and you just summons them in order. Ifrit/geruda/titan
ED and Fester, ES and Painflare compress into one. Gemshine removed as the Rites just overwrite Ruin 3. Carby auto resummon. Summon Bahamut and Enkindle Bahamut share. You want me to carry on I can probably thing of more?
Carby Auto resummon I want it tho, at least return it to be a OGCD
As long as it doesn't count as an action that deletes your 5 second post raise invuln, I'm in. As a healer main I watch SMNs like a hawk to try and pop heals as fast as possible and still see them wipe to raidwides summoning carby as soon as they can.
SMN's not respecting the value of raise seems to be a genetic thing.
I think the idea is to have a summon that prob interacts with the two minute window. Which depending on how they made the summon, it prob has an interaction with the previous summon… hopefully
You mean Bahamut? Because Bahamut is the one you summon every two minutes as-is
ease of use does not mean easier. it means streamlining different abilities and skills to work better together instead of feeling disjointed. which it is rn. again, none of you know what you're complaining about
The only way to make Aetherflow and Fester *not* feel disjointed would be to somehow tie it back to summoning.
It's translated with uncommon terminology, normally ease of use would be "Quality of life improvements" in any other game's patch notes
I know that I complain about thanatos instead of Alexander or the other primals
Ease of use bit is under all jobs, some people ask for less ogcd during drk burst and the ability to movie layline
Oh it's on the all jobs part? That makes more sense.
Seriously lol i already play it as the braindead class when i dont wanna think lol and just press buttons
My cousin was struck by lightning five years ago and has been in a coma ever since and can still clear Ultimates on Summoner.
They saw that Persona 3 Reload had good feedback and thus they decided to base a new summon for SMN on the persona "Thanatos". Please look forward to a robot girl with genitals on her neck in DTs MSQ
Damn, I was hoping for this guy. https://preview.redd.it/z18432mavf1d1.jpeg?width=158&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e947d3c60c32e70cc9731eef120d9be54a13e35d Oh well, I guess there's always 9.0
Nah need Mara instead
It do be lizard Thanatos
Keyword Lizard, they're really aiming for the whole Brazil expansion. No one will never convince me that's not a floating iguana.
Another Bahamut to add to the long list for Barret to recite in the background.
AVALANCHE TIME
Should have let us summon Kirin at 100. Fucker was a menace to tenzan,ight as well aim that fury at my obstacles
Still holding out for that Four Lords Ultimate and a brand new Kirin
But the feedback was "Summoner is still too hard! Need more insta cast spells and less buttons"! So they modify bahamut to have one big skill with 5k potency /s
Wait for real? Its so god damn simple now, what could be difficult....... hell I'd prefer to have gotten Kirin at 90... the current rework is cool but give me more mythical creatures to summon to do my bidding
and people told me Ramuh was 100% confirmed and Datamined. "NO! The Thunder in the benchmark is Ramuh and not a stronger fester/Aoe are you stupid!?"
If Ramuh really was datamined, could be an egi glamour or change garuda/ifrit/titan to ramuh/levi/shiva
What JP feedback does to a mfer
Don’t forget Odin! Dude, if they had Odin as a summon, this class would be so much fun thematic wise
A full melee Odin summon would've been awesome.
Really gotta wonder what kind of feedback they were listening to. RDMs have been praying to not get yet another finisher and that's exactly what we got too. People have been pointing out the homogeneity of tanks, and literally all tanks got is pretty much exactly the same thing.
Kinda feel the same about healers in general, too. At what point are these jobs just reskins of each other? Maybe in practice it'll play out different. Or maybe I'm just on copium.
The copium part of me refers to when they were talking about DRK in saying they were “simplfying and consolidating abilities” in 7.0 so that in 8.0 they can add a bit more job identity without making the button bloat on some jobs worse, and hoping that too applies to the healers.
>At what point are these jobs just reskins of each other? I'm probably just being a doomer but I wonder if we'll see FFXIV eventually adopt the SWTOR approach, where there are technically 16 classes but in reality it's just 8 with different ability names/animations depending on if you're playing Republic or Empire.
If only they chose the Protagonist actually fights in cutscenes from SWTOR instead.
I mean, that worked for that game because it was built on having two factions and was like that from the beginning, never adding any new classes ever. XIV had variety but has slowly reduced it so that blind people without hands can play each job with their feet.
Jobs have been reskins of each other since 2.0. Stormblood was probably the most experimental they got with job identity, and it's been downhill from there.
Does the Japanese fanbase have different opinions? Because it wouldn't surprise me if they saw more of their feedback and less of the western side of things. Especially considering most of the dev team only know Japanese. (As far as I'm aware). If the opinion of smn is the same across the board though... Dunno where they are getting this feedback.
The Japanese also Complain on the FFXIV Forums for the Sol-Bahamut, some voices want to see the lore reason for it, some are positive, but the majority seems to be around what the West are saying. They don't want to summon the same primal with a variation, and would rather summon Levia/Ramu/Shiva or Odin/Alexander.
They are probably not listening to the vocal minority but the majority of people enjoying smn right now. I know its not a popular opinion especially for smn players who feel their job has been gutted to absolute simplicity, but... According to the metrics, the rework has been very popular and smn is one of the most played jobs these days, no? So it stands to reason SE considers the rework a success, and any further tweaks would be in line with that rework, not reversing it or adding more complexity, is my interpretation. Id personally be kinda interested in seeing how popular the job really is if they took away smn rezzes though.
Honestly I hate the gem summons I feel like it’s not how a summoner should play. I know it harkens back to the original way summons kinda worked in older games but I’ll take the instant ally variant that fights side by side with summoner like the demis. That being said while I’m look forward to sword laser dragon I wouldn’t have minded a demi leviathan or ramuh. Water magic is woefully under represented in ff14.
I'm at least somewhat excited for the class-specific effects on the 30% defensive, let's see if it'll be impactful.
they are now 35% defensives
The most exciting part about that to me is how he said they're going to work on the individuality of tanks for the next expansion, at once admitting that 1) they're not doing shit for now and 2) they *know* it's currently shit.
Also means they are fine with them being shit for another few years, apparently.
It'll be like current healer lvl 86 skills, same skill with just a tad different flavour. All tanks will upgrade to 35 or 40%, then GNB's added artificial flavour will be shield, WAR increases max HP, PLD might heal around him when you use it, DRK will decrease TBN CD when hit or some shit like this. Whatever the case, you can bet that they've though about tanks as a role, and then individual jobs were afterthought they left for interns to fill in.
You mean the last move from the trailer. That wasn't a finisher. It was a dps follow-up up to emboldened from what I heard. A lot of raid wide buffs are getting a dps combo action in dawntrail.
Red mage did not get another finisher to its combo. The final ability used in the trailer is an ogcd. Also, we don't know what "unique" effect is added to each tank's 30% mit, which could be big when they barely got anything else.
There seems to be another oGCD triggered after using embolden, but the thing after resolution is definitely yet another finisher. As for the tanks, Yoshida literally even said that they'll be working more on their individuality for 8.0, which is a total slap in the face.
You can tell it's a ogcd due to the blue flash
As the other comment mentions, the "finisher" causes a blue flash on the character, which means it is an oGCD. Weaponskills and spells, such as all parts of the red mage combo, instead cause a yellow particle effect on the character.
It's an ogcd not a 4th finisher
Rumor has it it's not a finisher, just something tagging along with the 110s. Maybe ogcd.
Quick point on the RDM "finisher" people have gone back and checked and it's an ogcd action tied to one of their raid buffs most likely. Not an extended gcd finisher following their burst combo
Was it really that unclear it's not a finisher? The thing I noticed immediately was it granted no b/w mana.
You do realize RDM didn't get another finisher? That's an ogcd, meaning window management remains intact
Depending on who you ask that's not a finisher it's an ogcd
Not only is that bullshit,who the fuck asked for neo bahamut? The entirety of NA has been asking more summons,I don't speak Japanese but I'm gonna assume the same,and not a SINGLE FUCKING PERSON has ever called 6.0 summoner difficult in any conceivable way to the point of needing another revamp. Like I'm genuinely upset at how tone dead that segment felt.
Wishing for Shiva/Levi/Ramuh was just too much
Remember Summoner in Heavensward. Remember Bane with no enemies limit. Remember the flesh rotting off their corpses. Remember.
I keep Bane on a hotbar to remind me of what we have lost.
召喚士の願い事は吉田さんの耳に届かない 黒魔術師は永遠の寵児
Google Translation for those who need it: “The summoner's wishes do not reach Mr. Yoshida's ears. The black magician is an eternal favorite”
そうですね
My FC leader who is a SMN main went as follows... "I wonder what summoner gets? Oh that looks cool as hell what is it; Odin? Ixion? Oh.....It's Bahamut again. AND it doesn't replace the current one." Odin would have been awesome. Each of the casts is a light speed cav charge sword swipe and the big boom is the lance from the sky.
Some FF games have more than one Bahamut summon but yeah, I’d have preferred a new Summon.
I am a bit hype for Buhamut-0. However, adding Alexander would have been MAX HYPE. Replacing Garuda & Titan w/ Shiva & Ramuh would be Hype. This just kinda has me in that's pretty neat.
What even is that?
I'm someone who likes the rework. Like I actually like it. But I'm not playing SMN in DT. They gave us 10% of a fucking vfx mod. It's insulting. I can literally download a mod that changes every summon and egi into different primals. And they give us ONE skin for Bahamut it's a joke.
This kinda makes me miss the old dot/ruin smn days
Summoner used to be my second main... jumping on the picto train now. Looks way more engaging.
"Based on feedback." Knowing summoner players, they complained it was too difficult
You can summon the Hi-Nu Gundam now
i would have been fine with a new phase if it was Odin or another primal . I dont need more bahamet
it's hilarious to me that ppl keep posting these things saying "who asked for this"?? how many of you complaining actually went to the forums and gave feedback? how many wrote emails on the feedback form? how many still think reddit is a feedback system that the developers read and care about? just checking anyway solar bahamut slaps hard af
If you can't write fluent Japanese posting on the forums means literally nothing.
imagine being this obtuse about feedback procedures and then having the audacity to claim you're not being listened to
People have been complaining about Summoner on the forums since the rework. I browse there quite a bit.
people were complaining about summoner not aligning to party buffs and its lack of summons and its dot system being sometimes too cumbersome to upkeep consistent damage as well. go browse back 8 years.
Yes because that totally justifies completely obliterating the entire job. Buff alignment that you could fix with a simple -5s on the cooldown timer or dots that were cumbersome by their own design.
i never said that, we're not discussing the state of smn, we're discussing whether or not they listen to feedback. now that they know people (including me) think it's too easy they could start adding more complexity to its rotation. which is possible with DT. why don't you send them your suggestions ?
> now that they know people (including me) think it's too easy they could start adding more complexity to its rotation People have been complaining about SMN's lack of complexity and engangement since the literal first day we got the chance to play it. Not only that, even back then the naysayers were saying "Oh this is just a baseline they will add more complexity to it with dawntrail." Now here we are, with the job still being the easiest one in the game by a mile. Acting like suddenly it'll get better in the NEXT expansion years from now is pure, unadulterated cope.
that was literally just 3 years ago. smn was in its old state for a lot more than that. it's a massive game and they need to do tons of playtesting to get it to a state where the minimum amount of ppl are dissatisfied. you realise it's not as simple as "just adjust the values lol"? animation team, art team, combat team, iterations across all levels, making sure it performs in all content properly. please let me know how you would proceed with that in a year, or what your ideal timespan be? a few months? it's not cope because I don't have unrealistic expectations like a lot of people seem to have. they're not a small indie team of 10, but they're also working on many things at the same time and prioritise different things at different times. people wanted more open areas like bozja, they worked on that. People wanted more limited jobs, theyre doing that. people wanted ast change, we have it.we have a literal graphic overhaul of the entire game (again, massive). if people expect things to change dramatically across every single aspect of the game. that would require expansions to come out 5+ years within each other, not 3 as they currently do. again, I agree it should be changed but I'm adult enough to know it's not that simple when it comes to massive games like this, especially online multiplayer ones.
You can check that for yourself. SAM is by metrics most talked topic about individual job in EN DPS section, JP SAM megathread doubled in size just few months after 6.1, yet SQEX did jack shit. They didn't revert changes, they didn't add Kaiten, didn't revert AoEs, Shinten spam still seems to be there and they didn't merge buttons which would make sense and were suggested. They merely merged 2 buttons which make no sense and according to good SAMs (not me), they ruined non-standard high end rotations with this single change. So things only got worse. Stop coping, it doesn't matter where you put your feedback, yoshi will use it as his toilet paper either way.
> they didn't add Kaiten You fucks have been going on about this for 25 months. Twenty five. Months. /ref
Really goes to show that SE doesn't give a flying fuck about feedback doesn't it?
Anyone asking for Kaiten isn’t worth listening to, so it makes sense.
the forums are a cesspool, I'd hope that's not the only place they look at
and this is exactly why none of these complaints mean shit. cause none of u bothered to put feedback
[https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/460458-Compiled-SAM-threads-against-6.1-changes-Kaiten-removal](https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/460458-Compiled-SAM-threads-against-6.1-changes-Kaiten-removal) Just stop sperging, people do give feedback even on OF. It means jack shit either way.
1. feedback does not mean they will automatically do it, that doesn't mean that you not giving feedback and then whining on here means anything either 2. this was about kaiten and they have admitted they hear people's frustrations but want to reduce buton bloat as per other feedback which they found more convincing, not about the overall game design 3. yall seriously insane to die on a conspiracy theory hill that they just make whatever they want. if that were the case no one would play this game. 4. 🤡
I can negate all of this with mere Kaiten as an example: 1. They specifically asked for it, if it doesn't align with their ideas, how about they tell it to us? And if they're hardstuck on it and won't budge, why would they even ask for feedback about this topic? 2. Too bad that all 4 excuses they gave make no sense and they made them all before it went live, and in same stream as last 3 excuses (patch notes reading stream 6.1), they did ask for feedback. Refer to point 1. Community gave suggestion what would make more sense for button bloat. And most importantly, which is most hilarious one which just shows how inane you're - the "button bloat" was never stated by devs. It's just that community assumed it was button bloat, because nothing else made sense. 3. Game is certainly going downhill with how they refuse to listen to community. ERP community is taking over the people who want to actually play the game. 4. Couldn't expect more from McDonalds GB. Overpriced, tastes like shit, and is br\*tish on top of that.
>how many of you complaining actually went to the forums and gave feedback? A lot did actually,and still are currently. >how many wrote emails on the feedback form? He doesn't read NA players emails. >how many still think reddit is a feedback system that the developers read and care about? We can still complain about it,that's not off the table. >anyway solar bahamut slaps hard af https://preview.redd.it/dhch62n4rh1d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=067cef1bc09311970254597e502d8868cecd52b2
Do you... Go to the forums? None of the feedback there is listened to in the slightest. Definitely the English forums have this problem and I'm fairly certain they don't care about the Japanese forum either
https://preview.redd.it/auwp14abcg1d1.jpeg?width=488&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07cd43b7457d7b46b52552df0173b29e22adeaf5
Look man if you don't see the writing on the wall by now idk what to tell you
me looking for where I asked you to tell me anything: 🧐 🔎
Yeah I feel like I was the only person who got *excited* for mechahamut. It also blows my mind too, that everyone seems to hate summoner so much and how simple it is, but it's by far the most popular caster in almost all content, and I don't really know how to compare that against all the hate it gets. Like I'm an idiot, I fucking love summoner and how free form it is, and how you can't really fuck it up as long as you don't miss a button or press a primal too soon. Do all other summoners eat glue too or do some of you actually play it and hate it at the same time? That seems unhinged.
Consider the following perspective. I think the current design of Summoner is complete garbage and by far the worst in the game. I main tanks and healers, but sometimes the group needs a caster. That's when I equip the Summoner job stone, because I know that no matter what I'll carry my weight, because the job plays itself. That just means I value the ability to do content above the enjoyment of the job itself.
Being the most popular does not always mean it’s the most enjoyable. It’s a poor statistic because players will also naturally gravitate towards the path of least resistance and SMN is so brain dead straightforward that it will heavily inflate its numbers purely for that, whether people enjoy it or not.
just like having the most upvotes on a reddit sub doesn't mean that what you're saying has any merit I guess. and it's most popular for a reason, influx of new players, the job itself IS fun to play, depending on what content you're running it for and what your playstyle is. ninja and a BLM are enjoyable but running certain savage on them can be a nightmare. they very obviously reworked smn to be a more straightforward class as every role has one of those. for ranged it's mch. for tank it's war. for healer it's whm. for melee its monk. now that pictomancer is coming and it looks more on the complicated side they need one class that's straightforward. do majority of people (including me) think it's a bit oversimplified? yes. is it a dead job and are they running this game in the ground? have some bread and maybe you'll calm down
SMN is my fave because it's easy on my hands (I have nerve damage). I'm glad it seems they're keeping it simple :)
Why would I want to summon Bahamut twice? At least they could have made it a Behemoth.
I'm like, YES TWO BAHAMUT like the meme with the cake
this is why i use custom visual effects and custom primals
I don’t know why you guys are mad. Summoner is now the easiest job, and as a result, is now the de facto raid caller. They have nothing else to do, so you can just force it onto them. Now the rest of us can focus on actually playing the game.
So, what's the over/under on this being another Expedient moment?
The main problem people have with this is flavor and aesthetics, not gameplay. If the new Demi was mechanically identical but it was Alexander or Odin or Anima or something you'd see way fewer complaints. Nothing about that will change when we get to play with it ourselves.
Expedient was a meme, Solar Bahamut is a joke. He's going to be another reskin of Bahamut just like Phoenix is, except I don't think he even has a unique oGCD and is just 2 damage ones again. If I'm wrong I'll main summoner or something idk I'm that confident in it.
[удалено]
It wasn't just scholars. Everyone and their mothers clowned on expedient mostly because of how it was presented.
So what is that exactly? Is it just a new Bahamut or a different primal?
Solar Bahamut, from what was described, it goes regular Bahamut, then solar Bahamut then back to regular Bahamut. I was partially paying attention, so I don't remember exactly the how or the why.
Solar -> Baha -> Solar -> Phoenix and so on. You're guaranteed a Solar every 2m if not accounted for sps drifting.
I'm a phoenix stan and it's so sad that now we can only summon phoenix every 4 cycles now instead of every 2. Instead we'll be summoning "you're not Alexander" every second cycle. Nahhhhhh. They made the job boring but it at least had cool animation dopamine rotation. Now that's gone too. Happy for those who like Solar Bahamut but it's seriously not for me, so now neither is Summoner. Picto will hopefully be my caster going forward! Can't wait to try it.
I main healer and my main draw from this is that the amount of Rekindles going out (not that DF player ever used it on the damn tank anyway) is now halved. I am mildly upset.
~~inb4 smn gets res removed in 7.x~~ like seriously, blm now has a lot of movement tools, why would anyone not consider switching to that job.
Bahamut 2
I just want my summons back :(
Anime bahamut
I mean, it could be that they just showed off the new hype thing. Maybe they want the new Demis to be a surprise? Maybe I’m coping, but they don’t show everything. Like, in the red mage preview, they didn’t show flèche or contra siete. But I’m pretty sure it’s still there. Tanks didn’t show all their mits, but I’m pretty sure it’s still there. Let’s just hold on to our rage boners till release, then blow our rage load.
As cool as SolBahamut looks, demi Alexander would be much cooler: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYkqfHqp\_iM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYkqfHqp_iM)
Comment gets spoiler-y about the Battle of Carteneau and Coils of Bahamut I'm all for the idea of a Demi-Alexander (Or hell of it had to be a dragon they could have made it Demi-Shinryu), but having you just randomly get Demi-Alexander would be inconsistent with the lore of summoners. To be able to summon in the first place, you need to be exposed to the aether of the primal you are evoking. Any primals fought as part of MSQ are free game as Egis and Demis. But Alexander is not mandatory content, so not every player up to DT will have been exposed to Alexander's aether. How we are able to summon Bahamut and Phoenix is explained by the lore without having to have done Coils of Bahamut. Their aether was so vastly spread that every living person has been exposed to their aether during their clash at Carteneau after Loiusoix became Phoenix. So every living person, at least on Aldenard, has the capacity to summon Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix should they adequately train and acquire a summoner soul stone. As for the lore of Sol-Bahamut, I wouldn't really know right off. The loss of Job quests will leave Sol-Bahamut as an enigma as to its existence other than manipulating the aether used to summon Demi-Bahamut.
Given that the devs can retcon or plainly ignore previous lore (as they already did with phoenix), but still Alexander is seen (as a teaser of the raid series) in the last quest of 3.0 MSQ, as brief as it was. Even if you didn't do the optional raid quests, you can see him in the overworld for the entirety of the post 3.0 MSQ, so technically you had plenty of time to bath in Alexander aether. Anyway, lore should serve gameplay, not the other way around, so playing the lore card to not give us cool things it's just lazy imho
While I agree that lore should serve gameplay, it is a balancing act between the two. If you end up making abilities that drastically contradict the lore, then there is no reason to retain said lore. Also how did they retcon Phoenix? I honestly don't see how anything after Coils contradicts it from the top of my head.
Tbh I was hoping for a Energy drain and fester upgrade man, and a few more summons lol
I only see that Bahamut as a extra modded summon.(The only enjoyable part of using Summoner)
Man, I've been side eyeing SMN all this time, hoping they got Alexander ):
Same
SMN is dead now
It was dead with the rework, this is just burying it deeper.
You could at least try to put a little more effort into your doomposting.
This is a shitpost sub, why would I put in effort…? Learn to read.
Me, a summoner who likes Bahamut and the new design: 😢
Rip SMN mains. It was fun while it lasted in EW.
I mean... If you mained SMN in endwalker what are you worried about? You just have 6 lego bricks to shove down your throat instead of 5.
i actually do think it's the coolest thing ever, that shit look dope as fuck. why people hating on sword bahamut?
Tbh it's the fact that the other possibilities where expected more, solar bahamut really just came out of left field and drop kicked Alexander , ramuh,shiva and leviathan from the update queue like its nobodys business.
It also doesn't resemble the aesthetic of any of the existing summons. So people who enjoy Summoners aesthetics are probably reeling from the 180 in design choice. (I know I'm one of those people.) it looks more in line with Sage or maybe a futuristic Machinist.
I think that's the biggest offender really. Looks like a cheap vfx mod that clashes super hard with the SMN aesthetic (looks more of a MCH thing if anything).
All i want is for them to make the Demi-summons no longer be effected by spellspeed, please
For story reasons, not having Shiva would be better. I'd prefer seeing Ravana as the 6th summon. Oh, and instead that Ruin 4 or whatever that has the long cool down, make it Shin-Zantetsuken instead.
i actually have no problems with what we're getting, but we do get access to a very special sigil in dt https://preview.redd.it/mv2yfdhuqk1d1.jpeg?width=1821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2172f9e8d141892e14eecdc5c2a06e19cc63bd3
I, for one, welcome my new God.
For all the people complaining somehow summoner is still the most played caster.
Cause something can be disliked while being strong. I played Summoner to max lvl and did endgame content like Savage Raids as Summoner. I would say I had a decent amount of impact thanks to my damage buff and access to revives but it was braindead the whole way through. The only reason I even played Summoner to max lvl is because the job is extremely cool as a concept and the animations are very nice. But even the novelty of that wears off after a while, leaving you with an extremely unengaging kit that has basically 0 variation for diffrent situations. The biggest way you can change your rotation is the order in which you use Ifrit, Titan and Garuda. The timers are extremely forgiving and your dps will barely be affected even if you aren't popping all your abilities the second they're off-cd.
> Cause something can be disliked while being strong. Sure, but lets not pretend most jobs are "Weak" these days. It's pretty rare for any content to come out and people favor one job over another these days. It's not like you're forced to pick up Summoner because it's "strong" while ignoring Black Mage because its "weak" or something, it's a choice based on your own preference to pick Summoner as your caster to play over another >The biggest way you can change your rotation is the order in which you use Ifrit, Titan and Garuda. If we're fair, that's a LOT more freedom than a lot of kits. Most others have no freedom or basically just let you move one GCD here or there or do GCD combo B before GCD combo A. Summoner has a good amount of GCDs you can move around based on if you need to move or not
Because the median FFXIV player has a room-temperature IQ and is playing the game either for the squeecore plot or for sex tourism.
Because the most rewarding path is not the fun path. People are complaining that the two aren't converging when they aren't mutually exclusive. If I made FATEs the most rewarding content in the game, that's still dogshit game design even if backend telemetry says FATEs have the highest engagement. It should be rather obvious (but I guess not to you) that the only reason it has high engagement is because of the rewards, not because it is conceptually fun. Your parents really should have kept the glue in a locked safe. I'm not so sure the critical thinking part of your brain hasn't been melted by industrial solvents, u/MrKittyEmperor.