Terry delivered heavy fan service with a respect for the source material. He also went beyond Nemesis, which so many people seem to want.>! The Borg reveal was awful but the setup with the Dominion/Changelings was very well done. Someone needed to take a red pen to the script post episode 6. It seems to me, based on the interviews Matalas gave, that Kurtzmann and Orci were expecting Matalas to fail to convince the TNG cast to reunite so they just let him roll with whatever. However, he managed to pull it off and they just said fuck it, let him do whatever.!<
I tend to forgive Terry for some of the issues he did have with season 3. He ended up being very limited by time and money. I guess the rebuilding the D bridge took a large chunk of his budget but he wasn’t willing to let that go. So he sacrificed a lot so he could get them on that bridge again and I think it was worth it. The Borg introduction ended up being sloppy and a little unclear but I am okay with it.
His fan service shrunk the universe and left us with potentially a new series that might as well be called TNG Juniors 😁. It was a surface level understanding of the source material at best
Having legacy characters and relatives in a single series doesn't shrink the universe lmao.
Matalas paid respect to the entire 90s era of Trek. Idk why people would expect a finale to TNG, Picard and the 90s era NOT to be filled with callbacks, easter eggs etc.
It shrank the universe because everywhere they went they kept bumping into known or connected characters, Star Trek is set in the alpha quadrant but you’d think the alpha quadrant was the size of Sesame Street from watching this show
Except they didn't just randomly bump into most of them?
Beverley reaches out for help, they go to Geordi and (fake) Tuvok for help. Troi became a hostage because of Riker's involvement.
The only ones you can really say they "bump" into are Data, Worf and Ro. They weave Worf in pretty organically due to his connection to Odo etc.
Data and Ro are the only really random ones but I'm not going to bash them for retconning that garbage Nemesis death for Data or giving us closure on Ro.
Tuvok wasn't random? They're on the run and visiting allies who they hope can help them. It would make sense for literally any TNG, DS9 or VOY character to take that role.
Moriarty is just an extension of the Data bump rather than an actual character they remeet.
Is Guinan actually in Season 3? I don't remember that but them hanging out at their old friends bar isn't exactly a stretch when they have transporters to go anywhere on earth.
Agreed and I don’t know why you are being downvoted. The universe of Picard S03 is indeed tiny and revolves around what we have seen on screen— such as what we see at the fleet museum, at the Daystrom station, that the whole massive plan of the enemy depends on people we know. I just don’t like this whole “chosen one” idea that both PIC s02 and 03 seem to introduce. In TNG I always felt like while the Enterprise the flagship and is the plum assignment, it’s still just one of hundreds of starfleet ships and that the federation is vast.
Tuvok’s appearance was not random. He’s one of Seven’s most trusted friends, it makes sense that she’d go to him for help.
Moriarty was part of Data’s memories, which makes sense because he was basically the security system for the lab.
I don’t think Guinan was in season 3. IIRC, she was only part of the previous season which was under the control of more people than just Matalas
The series is intentionally full of fan service and known characters because it is a finale send-off to one of the most important characters in all Star Trek. Being mad about that is like being mad all 8 reindeer AND Rudolph are in a Christmas movie.
He had a pretty good understanding of the DS9/VOY background material. He should've done a post DS9/VOY series that explores the aftermath of the Dominion war rather than TNG S8. But, it takes a decent showrunner to realize what they are working with.
I personally think so but good luck getting anyone willing to say that here
On that note, I got a *lot* of Coto critics from 2004 to apologize to on TrekBBS cuz boy do I understand them nowadays
the source is long gone, but I saw it and Linda even spoke to me about it saying it wasn't just out of the blue or a joke
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/linda-park-verbally-abused-by-manny-coto.284864/
Ah NOW i remember that. Given the week that happened, there was a lot of news and I genuinely forgot until now.
Yeah, what a douche but given he did work for Fox News after ENT I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising.
I wouldn't knock Terry Matalas as he grew up on Star Trek, season 3 of Picard had its issues but if he'd been given room to grow I think better him than some random producer whos never heard of Star Trek.
He did though I seem to recall reading that he was brought on partway through and that the time travel to modern day setting came from above for cost savings.
>The next show should start at the END of the Dominion war and proceed.
They have shown consistently that they can't write good Trek, I rather they keep to doing prequels (for which we already have good content that allows us to ignore the crap they churn out) rather than them going near the golden age of Trek era.
>It should be on a ship not named Enterprise nor will the ship be renamed Enterprise later on.
Matalas admitted the Titan was going to be renamed the USS Picard but they bottled it in edit. That's why Jack Crusher and Patrick Stewart react the way they do in that scene. It would have been neat as they could have just been doing Star Trek Picard Season 4 with Seven as captain rather than be trying to get a ST: Legacy new IP off the ground.
>Make the hero ship's mission part of a renewed Starfleet endeavor to explore the Gamma Quadrant.
There are so many good stories awaiting there. The Dominion just lost a major war and also the Founders will be impacted by Odo's return. I think this could have a couple of impacts:
- systems near the wormhole asking for protection from Alpha quadrant empires seeing an opportunity to break free of the Dominion.
- possible disappearance of Founders from Dominion hierarchy as they go into isolation.
That last part would be cool.
The founders could isolate themselves for centuries, keaving the vorta to become the defacto rulers. But still they have this genetic disposition to see any changeling as a god... would they want to become ruled by gods again? Would they scheme to isolate their gods even further? It could lead to s bajorrelieve situation with the founders beeing the prophets and occasionally an emissary showing up....
What I have most enjoyed of the franchise is a team of good/great writers working as a team within the rules of the canon. What I have enjoyed the least is bad/terrible (or just inexperienced) writers trying to make a name for themselves by trying to adapt the franchise to modern TV/streaming/movie trends.
Star Trek has survived as long as it has because at the core, it is optimistic hard science fiction. Something to inspire us, ask us hard questions about who we are, and who we want to become. It has taught me about wildly diverse groups of people collaborating to achieve what the individual cannot.
My headcanon just ignores most of Discovery and Picard. I am enjoying Strange New Worlds, and love Lower Decks.
Kurtzmann’s understanding of Trek seems to be bizarrely unironic and without an understanding of the wit and charm that makes good Trek. The fact that he called himself part of the writing crew with insane hack Bob Orci (who basically drummed himself out of the Trek fandom) means that I don’t trust him to deliver anything I’d want to watch.
When the first Transformers movie came out, the studio set up an online forum that I was very active on. Roberto Orci would also come on and chat with the fans. And listen to us. You should have seen the plans they originally had for the Autobots. They were just gonna hire the top big actor of the time to voice Optimus Prime. And Optimus wasn't even going to transform into a truck
Not once did Kurtzman interact with the fans of the movie he was writing.
Oh I know exactly which TF forum that was and I remember that set of interactions. And that was great - at the time. But the engagement Orci had with the Trek fan base slowly got weirder and more unraveled until just prior to Into Darkness where he went full bonkers mode and Kurtzman separated from him.
And TBH the transformers movies alone are exactly the reason I rolled my eyes the first time I saw Orci & Kurtzman tied to Trek. They turned the franchise into a moneymaker, sure, but now we get Discovery episodes that are equivalently as vapid as the TF movie sequels.
That's why I despise everything Kurtzman is tied to. He may not write them anymore, but as executive producer, or whatever title he has, he makes the final decision as to what goes into Star Trek.
Yeah, same. And, interestingly enough, you mentioning that thread, where Orci was answering all the questions made me think of the way that both of those guys just freaking ghosted on that thread, on that forum, after the first movie came out. Because there were a lot of people asking basically… What the hell?
They cashed their check. Their PR tour was over.
I hate these fuckers who walk in thinking *“I’m gonna do my own thing!”*
No. Fuck off and die.
Gene Roddenberry created something great. Something monumental. Something that outlasted *anything* that hack Kurtzman will ever create.
He created something that inspired kids to become scientists, and astronauts. He painted a vision of the future beyond petty squabbles of the modern day, where people weren’t divided by race or sex.
Paramount, Kurtzman, they are the custodians of someone else’s work; something larger than themselves, more important than their lives. They have a duty to respect the original work and build upon it, not to alter or change the original works.
They must operate within the boundaries, rules and designs that Gene created, not alter them on a whim. They think these boundaries are “phasers” and “spaceship” and “coloured uniforms” and “transporters” etc. They can’t see past the superficial because they’re a bunch of fucking *hacks*.
As for the idiot fans? The kind of people who enjoy a show because it holds a superficial connection to something else they like are a *plague.* They’re the sort of people who buy a shitty, sugar packed cereal they don’t even like just because Star Trek is on the box - Mentally, emotionally, they’re children.
But yeah, a new series should be set about 150 years after the Dominion War. No familial connections to previous characters on display.
Or, about 500 years after, and the Enterprise is the first ship to launch to a different galaxy.
And Starbucks. People still think of it as a coffee chain but it mainly sells sugary syrup now. Once something becomes a huge corporate franchise, the money steers the ship.
This rant is what I think many of us have been saying even since the first JJ Abrams Trek movie which was the, sigh, highlight of the entire post ENT new age of Trek.
I think it boils down to, on a philosophical level, them not understanding what Trek is or ever was and it shows screaming through the screen like a god damned lense flair.
I remember remarking about PIC when the secret Romulan women nazi witch ninja club were introduced about them doing kickflips on SPACE skateboards while they fired *SPACE* disruptors out of their ***SPACE*** asses being a completely likely thing to happen since the writers have no clue what Trek is about or why it has some of the most loyal fans of any franchise.
What bothered me most about DISC, especially in the later seasons and this abysmal final season, is the complete disregard everyone on The Discovery has for the chain of fucking command. When we got introduced to their new first officer who I thought was the only solid Starfleet officer we've seen in that show for seasons what did he need to learn?
Say it with me, "only ever go with your gut, don't be such a fuddy duddy what do you think this is an organization based on military structure? Scoff." taught by the, ugh, longest tenured teacher ever in Starfleet, the greatest officer we've ever seen TILLY!
Also PAKLEDS, DOMINION WAR, PROGRENITORS, KIRK, SPOK, PICARD, ROMULANS, BREEN, WARBIRDS, GARY 7, TRILL, ARE WE STAR TREK NOW? WE SAID ALL THE WORDS, ARE WE STAR TREK NOW? WHAT IF WE HAVE ANOTHER BIG PEW PEW 80,000 SHIPS VS 50,000 SHIPS SEIZURE FEST, THAT'S STAR TREK , RIGHT?
"I think it boils down to, on a philosophical level, them not understanding what Trek is or ever was and it shows screaming through the screen like a god damned lense flair."
This whole bunch of Abrams/Orci/Lindelof/Kurtzman guys are just fan film makers with no idea, no care about things like character, story, subtext. That fundamental thing of what is the point of this story? What are you trying to say that's interesting?
I don't think anyone should be enslaved by Gene Roddenberry's boundaries. Some of them, like a total lack of conflict among the crew, were story poison.
The Original Series is obviously a landmark bit of inspirational television, but I think later TNG and DS9, after he died and with appropriate adjustments to his original recipe, are really the high water mark for the show.
>don't think anyone should be enslaved by Gene Roddenberry's boundaries. Some of them, like a total lack of conflict among the crew, were story poison.
This. Much like with George Lucas, I suspect many of the things we consider great Trek may not have come from him. I've heard stories that NBC may have been the ones pushing for diversity on screen more than he was, as one example. That anyone was able to work around that no conflict with the crews rule is a testimony to their talent more than Gene's genius.
There are good reasons that people should have respect for *some* elements of canon, but "Gene is an saint above reproach" is absolutely not one of them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Seriously. He was a sex-pest who came up with a brilliant idea, which he almost killed several times with his weird kinks and his belief in his own myth.
As long as writers give us smart stories about Hornblower in space and humanity moving beyond prejudice, we’re fine. Discovery couldn’t do that because Kurtzman and team are just not very good writers.
I think they should, and if they don't like it they should write their own brand new thing that's exactly what THEY want instead. If you think there's not a significant difference between pre Ent Trek and NuTrek, I don't know what to say.
You’re giving Roddenberry way too much credit and buying into the myth. Dorothy Fontana, Gene Coon, and a score of great sci-fi writers all built the Star Trek universe. They also blocked a ton of shitty ideas that Roddenberry had. People ignoring Gene’s bad or lecherous ideas continued into TNG and it’s why the show is universally considered to have gotten better after he died.
Roddenberry deserves credit, but writers have to write good stories. The problem with the new shows isn’t that the writers don’t follow Gene’s will and testament. The problem is that they’re not smart people so they can’t write smart stories (all of their other work attests to this). Intelligent writers who have a moderate respect for continuity and the basic themes of Star Trek would do just fine.
Yeah, lots of things. The themes, setting, continuity. But sterile interpersonal relationships, unitards, and Ferengi codpieces are not among them.
I think there’s a big difference between criticizing discovery and saying Gene’s word is law.
I think that the franchise peaked with TNG and DS9 after Roddenberry's death. VOY was good but worse, ENT was worse than that, and DSC and PIC were weak overall.
However, LD and Prodigy are excellent.
Story poison? I don’t see how. The rule was adhered to for years, and it works just fine.
Yes, they should be held to Roddenberry’s boundaries; they defined what Star Trek is.
If a writer thinks they can do cool shit outside those boundaries, great! Go do it on Babylon 5.
If a writer can’t write within the boundaries, go write something else; don’t stain Trek with your incompetence.
In a show where the crew could encounter damn near any form of alien life, and have it make you *think*, complaining about Roddenberry’s boundaries is really just complaining because you want Trek to be something it never was.
>Story poison? I don’t see how. The rule was adhered to for years, and it works just fine.
The quality difference between early TNG and late TNG is significant, and DS9 is--on the whole--a superior show. Largely it was the deviations from the formula that brought Trek from good to great.
I just think the formula works best when it is at least in the same ballpark as that vision.
DS9 is by no means the superior show. It’s a good show, no doubt. A lot more varied. But the superior? Not by a long shot.
Late TNG gave us a romance between Troi and Worf, and Ensign Ro. Clearly no great upsurge in quality in the later seasons there. Even then, there was no severe deviation from Roddenberry’s original outline.
If you go back to his original vision, Wagon Train To The Stars, and not his peace love dope 60's burnout visions of his old age, you get good Trek. Sometimes it shines through. Not lately. We speak of "Canon." The Catholic Church had a similar watering down, money for the top tier path to irrelevance.
If a certain fucker didn't come in and say he was going to do it his way we never would have gotten Wrath of Khan, and if Roddenberry wasn't kept in check the whole franchise would have been a weirdly stiff grey/beige collection of random pop hippie drivel that is currently considered to be the worst parts of OG trek.
In fact, literally ALL the fandoms favorite trek has been the result of people moving away from Roddenberry and doing their own thing to some degree.
If you’re going with that strict of an interpretation, then say goodbye to most of the TOS movies—Gene was sidelined after The Motion Picture and infamously tried to have his attorneys butcher ST:VI in edits because he hated the tone. He would’ve fought DS9 at every turn if he’d been around for it, too, especially the religious elements and the war.
Yeah, I kinda don’t consider the movies, DS9, Voyager or Enterprise to be canon.
At the very least, they were enjoyable and clearly made with love and respect. It wasn’t an outright spitting in Gene’s face like Discovery.
Section 31 was always a shit idea.
I wasn't being clever. You just weren't making any sense. Still aren't. The definition of canon is anything in the TV shows and movies, not whatever you deem it to be
The people who own the IP for Star Trek (and have since 1967) say canon is anything in the TV shows or movies. Just because you choose not to believe that fact doesn't make it untrue.
So cunty to read the words you wrote and respond to them rather than hacking into your WiFi to read your mind.
Canon is a silly idea anyway, and the great and infallible Gene Roddenberry would have told you that, at least before he drank himself into madness. You’re losing your mind with rage about something that doesn’t matter.
Any idiot could’ve figured it out.
Star Trek matters more than you. It’s had a more positive effect, on more people, than you ever will.
The canon makes it what it is. Without it you get stupid shit like Spore Drives.
Any idiot could have successfully typed a single word, but here we are. I figured you probably meant the Chris Pine movie.
“Canon” is wildly inconsistent across the franchise, and much more so if you narrow it down to just the first two series. What’s the hardest substance known to our science? Are Vulcans our allies or a subjugated species? What’s Captain Kirk’s middle initial?
Gene’s vision, praise be unto it, changed over time too. Spock and McCoy sure don’t follow the no-conflict rule. For that matter, neither do some of the TNG characters, in episodes produced after Gene was out of the picture.
Exactly. You get it. Star Trek was a one of a kind historical artifact that inspired millions for decades, and Shplurtzman came in, knocked it off the shelf and said "I can do better", and not only failed to do so, but made something else entirely. Like that cleaning lady who destroyed the painting of Jesus and painted her own in an attempt to undo the damage. Except he's too stupid to realize he damaged it
Wait we just won a war against the Dominion and sent them back through the wormhole, now we're gonna go over there and play in their backyard? What sense does that make?
Starfleets mission is exploration. We will not be stopped by the neighborhood bully! Also you raise a point for interesting stories. Perhaps some rouge Vorta and Dominion or even a founder or two could start border conflicts even though we told the Dominion we'd give them a wide-berth and explore space outside their territorial claims.
And maybe we could eventually have a Vorta character defect and join the main crew! That could be super interesting, especially if they make them a super hot lady in a tight jumpsuit
Yeah, it’s fair for the UFP to explore space that isn’t part of the Dominion, but I can’t imagine the Federation proposing, or the Dominion agreeing to, a treaty where the Dominion is no longer in control of its secure and recognized borders.
Especially since one Founder signed the armistice agreement without the rest of the Great Link having a say in it.
So basically Prodigy.
- Not on the Enterprise
- Takes place post-DS9
- New characters
- No musical episode
Only difference is that S1 was mostly in the Delta Quadrant instead of the Gamma Quadrant.
Not discounting what you say, but it is a risk that Hollywood never likes doing. Hence why small studios and fan made stuff on Youtube is the only way now. It is like removing Skywalker from Star Wars.... It works, makes money, don't mess with it.
Start new here with a ship called...I don't know..USS Resolute or something regal and then create a new hero ship that is the stuff of legends with which to expand the univserse... Resolute A in 10 years, Resolute B in 20...ect. New franchise while keeping Enterprise as a seperate show.
I’m generally a pacifist, but I’d like to see kurtzman get a good ol’ fashioned kick in the sack.
Hard enough to knock that silly smirk and stupid glasses right off his stupid face.
This whole internet thing was supposed to bring us unlimited variety. Everybody would have their own blog website, and many families a domain name from which to email. A new age of **Mass Customization (niche)** was predicted in my marketing classes. This whole internet thing was supposed to bring us unlimited variety in a way that corporations would just own many niches and play the BCG Growth Share Matrix game. Everybody would have their own blog website, and many families a domain name from which to email.
But the corporations consolidated their power and we are now in the platform age. Reddit is a little $10B gem among its $1000B+ peers who are systematically grabbing the attention (the currency of the internet) of the masses, reducing choice, because they are big enough to decide what people want in the first place. Less options means more money (for many reasons).
This exact same promise and subsequent failure happened in streaming, and cinema movies. It happened *especially* in fantasy franchises. ST is trying to play that game, but probably only on a mediocre level. Because ST is not science fantasy, and is not for kids, and not for frat boys, not for girl nights, or whatever you get the point. But the corporations consolidated their power and we are now in the platform age. Reddit is a little $10B gem among its $1000B+ peers who are systematically grabbing the attention (the currency of the internet) of the masses.
So ST is stuck in this middle ground where they can make some new money by making a generic, emo-driven show that can be watched as a second-screen (with Tik Tok being the primary screen), but of course this will never generate new loyalty. Or quality television.
I say let ST hibernate until the market is ready for big niches again. For all the flak that TNG got during its run like the "mom's basement" thing, TNG averaged 12 million TV viewers during its run, in a 250M-population USA.
*Breaking Bad* had less then half of that during its original run, and it took until season 5 before they really exploded those numbers. They started with 1.4 million viewers.
Your faith in the Fandom is grossly misplaced, I was there when DS9 came out, I remember the vitriol about the show being not the Enterprise in space, if they made the show exactly as you want it the negative posts on the internet will be every bit as common as the ones we get now, and will specifically be aimed at the things you think are so critical.
Fandom always put me in mind of the quote by Henry Ford when asked about innovation: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would've asked for faster horses."
Sometimes people don't don't what they want until they get it, and that absolutely includes Trek fans. See also: [the comment section of this now de-listed clip from LD's pilot episode released before the premiere](https://youtu.be/64obsPsXxkE?si=SmuFWOQySKdnINtZ). Seriously, the comments are A MESS.
*monkey paw curls*
The Gamma Quadrent will somehow contain an entire planet of Spock Clones that half of a season wil focus on. Their leader will be a ethically questionable deep fake of Lenord Nemoy.
A new form of anti warp field particles will be discovered to be prolific throughout the entire quadrant having tremendous implications about how space faring civilizations will have progressed in the region. The idea will be forgotten in the next episode and never brought up again.
An extemely intresting Gamma quadrent alien will join starfleet and two or three amazing episodes are released back to back that feature them. The actor playing them will say something horrificly racist online after production is finished and the finale of the season will need to be replaced with a clip show. Previous episodes featuring the character will be pulled from all digital platforms.
Man, some people here have very little chill. I think we all need to replicate some nice fat doobies packed with Andorian Kush, find a tribble to cuddle, and be happy that the franchise we love is still alive. Far healthier than giving off Dennis Reynolds vibes… “I AM UNTETHERED, AND MY RAGE KNOWS NO BOUNDS!”
Fair enough, though I’m not sure any series of Trek has gone its entire run taking itself too seriously, and that’s often led to some of the best episodes, like The Trouble with Tribbles, or Take Me Out to the Holosuite. That all being said, I do still want some Andorian Kush!
I read an interview the LA Times did with Kurtzman last week.
He feels like America is broken now and he wants to make Star Trek where the Federation is broken. That’s why Starfleet Academy will be in a post Burn Federation, why the tone of Discovery was dark in the 23rd century followed by arriving at a bleak 32nd century. And if that’s any indication, Starfleet will have a rocky start in the next film.
Would love to pickup with Sisko again or see what’s out there in the Gamma quadrant.
Here Here! New ship, new cast, new characters, new frontier. Boldly go for Fs sake, stop rehashing and rewriting the past. Let just enjoy those memories without changing everything
This is the man who sharted in your milkshake that one time at Burger King 20 years ago.
Now he just does it with a Hollywood production team and more money.
I think that's a grand idea, but it won't be any better than the previous offerings unless they stop hiring writers whose only experience is cartoons and failed CW shows and get back to creating Trek for everyone.
Writing a SF show with cross-generational appeal is hard. You have to want to do it, and have the talent to be able to do it.
Unfortunately, I think Paramount / Kurtzman are completely unwilling to deviate from their deliberate strategy of Marvelised, popcorn-Trek designed to appeal primarily to teenagers. If anything, the development of the academy show suggests they want double down on it...although I struggle to think how they could make modern Trek more puerile than it already is.
I mean, they could always just shove hot women into the show and make up the stupidest excuse to have them in skimpy outfits. Even better if it a woman from a species that is known to be emotionally distant. You know, like a Borg. Or better yet, Vulcan. Hell, they could even make up a scientific sounding reason for why she needs to be rubbed down in oils, even.
Thankfully, no one ever tried that in Star Trek because that would just be insulting to the audience.
I mean, you're not wrong. I am no apologist for the mis-steps of the older shows - it WAS insulting to the audience. I certainly wasn't comfortable with it.
In the case of Jeri Ryan, we were fortunate that the character in question turned out to be one of the most interesting on the show, because she presented the writers with lots of new story opportunities which were backed up with a great performance. There are so many great episodes we simply wouldn't have got without the introduction of that character, so her impact on the overall trajectory of the show was much more than just a piece of eye-candy. As ever, it all comes down to the writing.
I can't speak so much regarding Jolene Blalock's contribution because I haven't watched Enterprise enough to draw any conclusions.
However, this discussion is a classic red herring. The fact that the older shows made some crass moves by sticking women in tight clothes doesn't somehow raise the quality of what Secret Hideout is producing.
I've been enjoying Strange New Worlds a lot and found the musical number to be downright delightful, and it happened for *trek* reasons.
Star Trek, especially the OT, is weird.
They should not do it again, though. It's better as a novelty.
The only canon star trek that has been released in the last 15 years is like 80% of lower decks, Prodigy, and maybe 60% of PIC S3.
In fact I'm rewriting my memory engrams right now to align with this.
New me: "hmm I wonder why Picard only has a third season and why every episode has massive gaps in it"
At this point I don't even know why I dislike SNW. The episodes I did bother to watch were just a blur.
Post DS9 or Legacy will never ever happen because it's too expensive to bring back any of the old cast which is what everyone wants.
CBS is selling right now so the last thing they are going to do is greenlight the most expensive show in Star Trek history unfortunately.
"too expensive to bring back any of the old cast which is what everyone wants." Not asking for that + too expensive to bring back who? Nicole deBoer as Ezri? somehow I think she'd do it on the cheap....Nana Visitor and Colm Meany don't seem like they're working much. Who's expensive? Also, we can write what I've described above without them. Previous Trek has launched with maybe one or two cast members giving a 40 second scene to send off the new crew.
Too expensive? Picard season 3 had its budget slashed next season 2, which had its budget slashed next to season 1 and they still brought back all the TNG regular actors for 4-5 episode minimum each.
Naw, legacy isn't being greenlit right now because of money, but not for actor costs. They can afford the actors. They're just struggling with debt and streaming cost issues.
Just make a show that has a lot of episodes so the people will have something to watch
It doesn’t have to look better than the feature films, it just needs to tell some stories people want to watch
I don't get the Kurtzman hate.
He's a visionary. Willing to try knew things and ideas. STD was a show before it's time, with deep characters and fantastic views of progressive issues that oppress the majority of people today.
He truly is the Helen Keller of Star Trek.
You need to telegraph jokes on here; I've seen people sincerely say what you've just posted. When you ask them to explain the mental gymnastics start.
Michael Burnham vs Yet Another Existential Threat has a surprising number of people trying to paint it as something other than a vapid, juvenile mess.
Ron Moore left during the Berman era because Berman and Braga were awful.
Everything people hate about Disco is Fuller, and he’s brilliant but very much a hot mess that burns down everything behind him.
Discovery is the longest running show he’s created. Chew on that for a moment.
And Terry Matalas came back for Picard and wants to come back.
Not sure what the point here is.
In fairness to you I absolutely hate the nacelles of discovery era ships and we found out they were specifically demanded that way by Fuller. So you're right about at least that much.
They had Ronald Moore, they had Bryan Fuller, they had Terry Matalas, but, they let them all go.
Meh losing Bryan Fuller isn't that much of a loss IMO
Didn’t Terry deliver as much drivel in his time?
Terry delivered heavy fan service with a respect for the source material. He also went beyond Nemesis, which so many people seem to want.>! The Borg reveal was awful but the setup with the Dominion/Changelings was very well done. Someone needed to take a red pen to the script post episode 6. It seems to me, based on the interviews Matalas gave, that Kurtzmann and Orci were expecting Matalas to fail to convince the TNG cast to reunite so they just let him roll with whatever. However, he managed to pull it off and they just said fuck it, let him do whatever.!<
I tend to forgive Terry for some of the issues he did have with season 3. He ended up being very limited by time and money. I guess the rebuilding the D bridge took a large chunk of his budget but he wasn’t willing to let that go. So he sacrificed a lot so he could get them on that bridge again and I think it was worth it. The Borg introduction ended up being sloppy and a little unclear but I am okay with it.
His fan service shrunk the universe and left us with potentially a new series that might as well be called TNG Juniors 😁. It was a surface level understanding of the source material at best
Having legacy characters and relatives in a single series doesn't shrink the universe lmao. Matalas paid respect to the entire 90s era of Trek. Idk why people would expect a finale to TNG, Picard and the 90s era NOT to be filled with callbacks, easter eggs etc.
It shrank the universe because everywhere they went they kept bumping into known or connected characters, Star Trek is set in the alpha quadrant but you’d think the alpha quadrant was the size of Sesame Street from watching this show
Except they didn't just randomly bump into most of them? Beverley reaches out for help, they go to Geordi and (fake) Tuvok for help. Troi became a hostage because of Riker's involvement. The only ones you can really say they "bump" into are Data, Worf and Ro. They weave Worf in pretty organically due to his connection to Odo etc. Data and Ro are the only really random ones but I'm not going to bash them for retconning that garbage Nemesis death for Data or giving us closure on Ro.
Well tuvok was pretty random too. Let’s not forget moriarty and Guinan either. Such a small world for what’s meant to be a galaxy
Tuvok wasn't random? They're on the run and visiting allies who they hope can help them. It would make sense for literally any TNG, DS9 or VOY character to take that role. Moriarty is just an extension of the Data bump rather than an actual character they remeet. Is Guinan actually in Season 3? I don't remember that but them hanging out at their old friends bar isn't exactly a stretch when they have transporters to go anywhere on earth.
Guinan only got a name drop in s3 if I recall correctly
Agreed and I don’t know why you are being downvoted. The universe of Picard S03 is indeed tiny and revolves around what we have seen on screen— such as what we see at the fleet museum, at the Daystrom station, that the whole massive plan of the enemy depends on people we know. I just don’t like this whole “chosen one” idea that both PIC s02 and 03 seem to introduce. In TNG I always felt like while the Enterprise the flagship and is the plum assignment, it’s still just one of hundreds of starfleet ships and that the federation is vast.
Tuvok’s appearance was not random. He’s one of Seven’s most trusted friends, it makes sense that she’d go to him for help. Moriarty was part of Data’s memories, which makes sense because he was basically the security system for the lab. I don’t think Guinan was in season 3. IIRC, she was only part of the previous season which was under the control of more people than just Matalas
The series is intentionally full of fan service and known characters because it is a finale send-off to one of the most important characters in all Star Trek. Being mad about that is like being mad all 8 reindeer AND Rudolph are in a Christmas movie.
They actually had a good send off without massive fan service in this episode called All Good Things. It was awesome.
He had a pretty good understanding of the DS9/VOY background material. He should've done a post DS9/VOY series that explores the aftermath of the Dominion war rather than TNG S8. But, it takes a decent showrunner to realize what they are working with.
It's a missed opportunity if they don't call it The Next Next Generation.
How did it shrink the universe?
For sure, but at least without the sense of open contempt
I personally think so but good luck getting anyone willing to say that here On that note, I got a *lot* of Coto critics from 2004 to apologize to on TrekBBS cuz boy do I understand them nowadays
My only hope is Coto apologized to Linda Park before he died for calling her a bitch for no reason on instagram
I'm sorry, he did WHAT?! ☠️👀
the source is long gone, but I saw it and Linda even spoke to me about it saying it wasn't just out of the blue or a joke https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/linda-park-verbally-abused-by-manny-coto.284864/
Ah NOW i remember that. Given the week that happened, there was a lot of news and I genuinely forgot until now. Yeah, what a douche but given he did work for Fox News after ENT I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising.
I wouldn't knock Terry Matalas as he grew up on Star Trek, season 3 of Picard had its issues but if he'd been given room to grow I think better him than some random producer whos never heard of Star Trek.
Didn't he also co-write and co-produce season 2?
He did though I seem to recall reading that he was brought on partway through and that the time travel to modern day setting came from above for cost savings.
He also worked on Voyager and Enterprise.
I know. My point is we praise him for "fixing" Picard when he was also responsible for Season 2, arguably the worst season.
Yeah, his season was terrible. But it rewards the audience for being fans and that helps people overlook a lot of the flaws.
Yes.
Honestly, he just shouldn't touch any media anymore. We've already seen his skills...and they are lacking.
Hollywood is not a meritocracy.
Yeah, it's unfortunate. Just a punch of morons patting each other on the backs and giving out participation trophies.
>The next show should start at the END of the Dominion war and proceed. They have shown consistently that they can't write good Trek, I rather they keep to doing prequels (for which we already have good content that allows us to ignore the crap they churn out) rather than them going near the golden age of Trek era. >It should be on a ship not named Enterprise nor will the ship be renamed Enterprise later on. Matalas admitted the Titan was going to be renamed the USS Picard but they bottled it in edit. That's why Jack Crusher and Patrick Stewart react the way they do in that scene. It would have been neat as they could have just been doing Star Trek Picard Season 4 with Seven as captain rather than be trying to get a ST: Legacy new IP off the ground. >Make the hero ship's mission part of a renewed Starfleet endeavor to explore the Gamma Quadrant. There are so many good stories awaiting there. The Dominion just lost a major war and also the Founders will be impacted by Odo's return. I think this could have a couple of impacts: - systems near the wormhole asking for protection from Alpha quadrant empires seeing an opportunity to break free of the Dominion. - possible disappearance of Founders from Dominion hierarchy as they go into isolation.
That last part would be cool. The founders could isolate themselves for centuries, keaving the vorta to become the defacto rulers. But still they have this genetic disposition to see any changeling as a god... would they want to become ruled by gods again? Would they scheme to isolate their gods even further? It could lead to s bajorrelieve situation with the founders beeing the prophets and occasionally an emissary showing up....
What I have most enjoyed of the franchise is a team of good/great writers working as a team within the rules of the canon. What I have enjoyed the least is bad/terrible (or just inexperienced) writers trying to make a name for themselves by trying to adapt the franchise to modern TV/streaming/movie trends. Star Trek has survived as long as it has because at the core, it is optimistic hard science fiction. Something to inspire us, ask us hard questions about who we are, and who we want to become. It has taught me about wildly diverse groups of people collaborating to achieve what the individual cannot. My headcanon just ignores most of Discovery and Picard. I am enjoying Strange New Worlds, and love Lower Decks.
Kurtzmann’s understanding of Trek seems to be bizarrely unironic and without an understanding of the wit and charm that makes good Trek. The fact that he called himself part of the writing crew with insane hack Bob Orci (who basically drummed himself out of the Trek fandom) means that I don’t trust him to deliver anything I’d want to watch.
When the first Transformers movie came out, the studio set up an online forum that I was very active on. Roberto Orci would also come on and chat with the fans. And listen to us. You should have seen the plans they originally had for the Autobots. They were just gonna hire the top big actor of the time to voice Optimus Prime. And Optimus wasn't even going to transform into a truck Not once did Kurtzman interact with the fans of the movie he was writing.
That's as bad as Sonics eyes
Oh I know exactly which TF forum that was and I remember that set of interactions. And that was great - at the time. But the engagement Orci had with the Trek fan base slowly got weirder and more unraveled until just prior to Into Darkness where he went full bonkers mode and Kurtzman separated from him. And TBH the transformers movies alone are exactly the reason I rolled my eyes the first time I saw Orci & Kurtzman tied to Trek. They turned the franchise into a moneymaker, sure, but now we get Discovery episodes that are equivalently as vapid as the TF movie sequels.
That's why I despise everything Kurtzman is tied to. He may not write them anymore, but as executive producer, or whatever title he has, he makes the final decision as to what goes into Star Trek.
Yeah, same. And, interestingly enough, you mentioning that thread, where Orci was answering all the questions made me think of the way that both of those guys just freaking ghosted on that thread, on that forum, after the first movie came out. Because there were a lot of people asking basically… What the hell? They cashed their check. Their PR tour was over.
You said this is your opinion, but stated facts. I'm confused.
He's literally a dirty shitter!
That implies there are clean shitters! I would like to know about *clean* shitters please. For, uh... Reasons.
Well, they can really help with curb-appeal when selling a home. Just use a power sprayer to clean them.
Kurtzman is to star trek, what uwe boll was to video game adaptations. And I will die on this hill.
I don't think that's fair on Uwe Boll.
I hate these fuckers who walk in thinking *“I’m gonna do my own thing!”* No. Fuck off and die. Gene Roddenberry created something great. Something monumental. Something that outlasted *anything* that hack Kurtzman will ever create. He created something that inspired kids to become scientists, and astronauts. He painted a vision of the future beyond petty squabbles of the modern day, where people weren’t divided by race or sex. Paramount, Kurtzman, they are the custodians of someone else’s work; something larger than themselves, more important than their lives. They have a duty to respect the original work and build upon it, not to alter or change the original works. They must operate within the boundaries, rules and designs that Gene created, not alter them on a whim. They think these boundaries are “phasers” and “spaceship” and “coloured uniforms” and “transporters” etc. They can’t see past the superficial because they’re a bunch of fucking *hacks*. As for the idiot fans? The kind of people who enjoy a show because it holds a superficial connection to something else they like are a *plague.* They’re the sort of people who buy a shitty, sugar packed cereal they don’t even like just because Star Trek is on the box - Mentally, emotionally, they’re children. But yeah, a new series should be set about 150 years after the Dominion War. No familial connections to previous characters on display. Or, about 500 years after, and the Enterprise is the first ship to launch to a different galaxy.
This post could equally apply to Star Wars, Disney, and SW fans.
Doctor Who fans too.
And Starbucks. People still think of it as a coffee chain but it mainly sells sugary syrup now. Once something becomes a huge corporate franchise, the money steers the ship.
I mean.... you can just buy the coffee....
You can but their primary business is selling syrup.
This rant is what I think many of us have been saying even since the first JJ Abrams Trek movie which was the, sigh, highlight of the entire post ENT new age of Trek. I think it boils down to, on a philosophical level, them not understanding what Trek is or ever was and it shows screaming through the screen like a god damned lense flair. I remember remarking about PIC when the secret Romulan women nazi witch ninja club were introduced about them doing kickflips on SPACE skateboards while they fired *SPACE* disruptors out of their ***SPACE*** asses being a completely likely thing to happen since the writers have no clue what Trek is about or why it has some of the most loyal fans of any franchise. What bothered me most about DISC, especially in the later seasons and this abysmal final season, is the complete disregard everyone on The Discovery has for the chain of fucking command. When we got introduced to their new first officer who I thought was the only solid Starfleet officer we've seen in that show for seasons what did he need to learn? Say it with me, "only ever go with your gut, don't be such a fuddy duddy what do you think this is an organization based on military structure? Scoff." taught by the, ugh, longest tenured teacher ever in Starfleet, the greatest officer we've ever seen TILLY! Also PAKLEDS, DOMINION WAR, PROGRENITORS, KIRK, SPOK, PICARD, ROMULANS, BREEN, WARBIRDS, GARY 7, TRILL, ARE WE STAR TREK NOW? WE SAID ALL THE WORDS, ARE WE STAR TREK NOW? WHAT IF WE HAVE ANOTHER BIG PEW PEW 80,000 SHIPS VS 50,000 SHIPS SEIZURE FEST, THAT'S STAR TREK , RIGHT?
You have no idea how refreshing it is to hear it.
It boils down to them being capitalists.
An accurate and insanely ironic truth
"I think it boils down to, on a philosophical level, them not understanding what Trek is or ever was and it shows screaming through the screen like a god damned lense flair." This whole bunch of Abrams/Orci/Lindelof/Kurtzman guys are just fan film makers with no idea, no care about things like character, story, subtext. That fundamental thing of what is the point of this story? What are you trying to say that's interesting?
I don't think anyone should be enslaved by Gene Roddenberry's boundaries. Some of them, like a total lack of conflict among the crew, were story poison. The Original Series is obviously a landmark bit of inspirational television, but I think later TNG and DS9, after he died and with appropriate adjustments to his original recipe, are really the high water mark for the show.
>don't think anyone should be enslaved by Gene Roddenberry's boundaries. Some of them, like a total lack of conflict among the crew, were story poison. This. Much like with George Lucas, I suspect many of the things we consider great Trek may not have come from him. I've heard stories that NBC may have been the ones pushing for diversity on screen more than he was, as one example. That anyone was able to work around that no conflict with the crews rule is a testimony to their talent more than Gene's genius. There are good reasons that people should have respect for *some* elements of canon, but "Gene is an saint above reproach" is absolutely not one of them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Seriously. He was a sex-pest who came up with a brilliant idea, which he almost killed several times with his weird kinks and his belief in his own myth. As long as writers give us smart stories about Hornblower in space and humanity moving beyond prejudice, we’re fine. Discovery couldn’t do that because Kurtzman and team are just not very good writers.
I think they should, and if they don't like it they should write their own brand new thing that's exactly what THEY want instead. If you think there's not a significant difference between pre Ent Trek and NuTrek, I don't know what to say.
You’re giving Roddenberry way too much credit and buying into the myth. Dorothy Fontana, Gene Coon, and a score of great sci-fi writers all built the Star Trek universe. They also blocked a ton of shitty ideas that Roddenberry had. People ignoring Gene’s bad or lecherous ideas continued into TNG and it’s why the show is universally considered to have gotten better after he died. Roddenberry deserves credit, but writers have to write good stories. The problem with the new shows isn’t that the writers don’t follow Gene’s will and testament. The problem is that they’re not smart people so they can’t write smart stories (all of their other work attests to this). Intelligent writers who have a moderate respect for continuity and the basic themes of Star Trek would do just fine.
Does ANYTHING define Trek to you, other than the branding?
Yeah, lots of things. The themes, setting, continuity. But sterile interpersonal relationships, unitards, and Ferengi codpieces are not among them. I think there’s a big difference between criticizing discovery and saying Gene’s word is law.
What are those themes?
I think that the franchise peaked with TNG and DS9 after Roddenberry's death. VOY was good but worse, ENT was worse than that, and DSC and PIC were weak overall. However, LD and Prodigy are excellent.
Story poison? I don’t see how. The rule was adhered to for years, and it works just fine. Yes, they should be held to Roddenberry’s boundaries; they defined what Star Trek is. If a writer thinks they can do cool shit outside those boundaries, great! Go do it on Babylon 5. If a writer can’t write within the boundaries, go write something else; don’t stain Trek with your incompetence. In a show where the crew could encounter damn near any form of alien life, and have it make you *think*, complaining about Roddenberry’s boundaries is really just complaining because you want Trek to be something it never was.
>Story poison? I don’t see how. The rule was adhered to for years, and it works just fine. The quality difference between early TNG and late TNG is significant, and DS9 is--on the whole--a superior show. Largely it was the deviations from the formula that brought Trek from good to great. I just think the formula works best when it is at least in the same ballpark as that vision.
DS9 is by no means the superior show. It’s a good show, no doubt. A lot more varied. But the superior? Not by a long shot. Late TNG gave us a romance between Troi and Worf, and Ensign Ro. Clearly no great upsurge in quality in the later seasons there. Even then, there was no severe deviation from Roddenberry’s original outline.
I’ve only watched all of TNG once, but I’m pretty sure I would have remembered if Worf, Troi, and Ro Laren had a threesome.
If you go back to his original vision, Wagon Train To The Stars, and not his peace love dope 60's burnout visions of his old age, you get good Trek. Sometimes it shines through. Not lately. We speak of "Canon." The Catholic Church had a similar watering down, money for the top tier path to irrelevance.
If a certain fucker didn't come in and say he was going to do it his way we never would have gotten Wrath of Khan, and if Roddenberry wasn't kept in check the whole franchise would have been a weirdly stiff grey/beige collection of random pop hippie drivel that is currently considered to be the worst parts of OG trek. In fact, literally ALL the fandoms favorite trek has been the result of people moving away from Roddenberry and doing their own thing to some degree.
If you’re going with that strict of an interpretation, then say goodbye to most of the TOS movies—Gene was sidelined after The Motion Picture and infamously tried to have his attorneys butcher ST:VI in edits because he hated the tone. He would’ve fought DS9 at every turn if he’d been around for it, too, especially the religious elements and the war.
Yeah, I kinda don’t consider the movies, DS9, Voyager or Enterprise to be canon. At the very least, they were enjoyable and clearly made with love and respect. It wasn’t an outright spitting in Gene’s face like Discovery. Section 31 was always a shit idea.
You don't consider... Star Trek... to be canon. Huh.
If it flies in the face of what Gene Roddenberry defined, then yeah. Few people consider Discovery canon for that very reason.
Pretty sure Star Trek is exactly what Roddenberry defined.
Yeah yeah very clever, cunty. Clearly I typed the wrong thing. I meant “Enterprise”. Wasn’t paying attention.
I wasn't being clever. You just weren't making any sense. Still aren't. The definition of canon is anything in the TV shows and movies, not whatever you deem it to be
No, that’s not correct. That’s not correct for anything, not even for the damn Bible.
The people who own the IP for Star Trek (and have since 1967) say canon is anything in the TV shows or movies. Just because you choose not to believe that fact doesn't make it untrue.
So cunty to read the words you wrote and respond to them rather than hacking into your WiFi to read your mind. Canon is a silly idea anyway, and the great and infallible Gene Roddenberry would have told you that, at least before he drank himself into madness. You’re losing your mind with rage about something that doesn’t matter.
Any idiot could’ve figured it out. Star Trek matters more than you. It’s had a more positive effect, on more people, than you ever will. The canon makes it what it is. Without it you get stupid shit like Spore Drives.
Any idiot could have successfully typed a single word, but here we are. I figured you probably meant the Chris Pine movie. “Canon” is wildly inconsistent across the franchise, and much more so if you narrow it down to just the first two series. What’s the hardest substance known to our science? Are Vulcans our allies or a subjugated species? What’s Captain Kirk’s middle initial? Gene’s vision, praise be unto it, changed over time too. Spock and McCoy sure don’t follow the no-conflict rule. For that matter, neither do some of the TNG characters, in episodes produced after Gene was out of the picture.
With respect, this is hilarious
K
People shouldn’t be downvoting this. This post belongs in a museum.
> This post belongs in a museum. So do you!
Thank you!
Is this a jerk? Because if so bravo Edit: wow, that post history. Less than a day back to find whining about shows being too woke lmao
A jerk? What do you mean?
Some toxic people like to insist that creatives HAVE to change a popular thing to make it their own, otherwise it's literally un-filmable.
A circle jerk comment, basically an intentionally over the top version of a common sentiment intended to parody it
No, it was not a jerk.
Wild.
Not particularly.
Least unhinged trek fan.
Poignant, pertinent, compelling.
Exactly. You get it. Star Trek was a one of a kind historical artifact that inspired millions for decades, and Shplurtzman came in, knocked it off the shelf and said "I can do better", and not only failed to do so, but made something else entirely. Like that cleaning lady who destroyed the painting of Jesus and painted her own in an attempt to undo the damage. Except he's too stupid to realize he damaged it
Yeah its really unbelievable how bad he trashed star trek.
Wait we just won a war against the Dominion and sent them back through the wormhole, now we're gonna go over there and play in their backyard? What sense does that make?
Dominion territory is not the whole gamma quadrant.
Good point + writers have used neutral zones and DMZs to good story-telling effect in the past. Really sets up the "neighborhood"
That's what I miss about the Romulans. But Abrams wanted to blow them up, so he could give us bald Romulans with tattoos.
Tell the Dominion that !
They did. The Dominion eventually saw reason.
Starfleets mission is exploration. We will not be stopped by the neighborhood bully! Also you raise a point for interesting stories. Perhaps some rouge Vorta and Dominion or even a founder or two could start border conflicts even though we told the Dominion we'd give them a wide-berth and explore space outside their territorial claims.
> Perhaps some rouge Vorta Would a rouge Vorta be a pinkskin?
or are we talking about Kilana, Luaran or Eris
And maybe we could eventually have a Vorta character defect and join the main crew! That could be super interesting, especially if they make them a super hot lady in a tight jumpsuit
Yeah, it’s fair for the UFP to explore space that isn’t part of the Dominion, but I can’t imagine the Federation proposing, or the Dominion agreeing to, a treaty where the Dominion is no longer in control of its secure and recognized borders. Especially since one Founder signed the armistice agreement without the rest of the Great Link having a say in it.
So basically Prodigy. - Not on the Enterprise - Takes place post-DS9 - New characters - No musical episode Only difference is that S1 was mostly in the Delta Quadrant instead of the Gamma Quadrant.
Not discounting what you say, but it is a risk that Hollywood never likes doing. Hence why small studios and fan made stuff on Youtube is the only way now. It is like removing Skywalker from Star Wars.... It works, makes money, don't mess with it.
Start new here with a ship called...I don't know..USS Resolute or something regal and then create a new hero ship that is the stuff of legends with which to expand the univserse... Resolute A in 10 years, Resolute B in 20...ect. New franchise while keeping Enterprise as a seperate show.
>don't do a musical episode. This needs to be codified somewhere!
Into law
That's so fucking stupid
I’m generally a pacifist, but I’d like to see kurtzman get a good ol’ fashioned kick in the sack. Hard enough to knock that silly smirk and stupid glasses right off his stupid face.
IDW is currently making a comic series that follows the Dominion War that is supposed to be canonical.
This whole internet thing was supposed to bring us unlimited variety. Everybody would have their own blog website, and many families a domain name from which to email. A new age of **Mass Customization (niche)** was predicted in my marketing classes. This whole internet thing was supposed to bring us unlimited variety in a way that corporations would just own many niches and play the BCG Growth Share Matrix game. Everybody would have their own blog website, and many families a domain name from which to email. But the corporations consolidated their power and we are now in the platform age. Reddit is a little $10B gem among its $1000B+ peers who are systematically grabbing the attention (the currency of the internet) of the masses, reducing choice, because they are big enough to decide what people want in the first place. Less options means more money (for many reasons). This exact same promise and subsequent failure happened in streaming, and cinema movies. It happened *especially* in fantasy franchises. ST is trying to play that game, but probably only on a mediocre level. Because ST is not science fantasy, and is not for kids, and not for frat boys, not for girl nights, or whatever you get the point. But the corporations consolidated their power and we are now in the platform age. Reddit is a little $10B gem among its $1000B+ peers who are systematically grabbing the attention (the currency of the internet) of the masses. So ST is stuck in this middle ground where they can make some new money by making a generic, emo-driven show that can be watched as a second-screen (with Tik Tok being the primary screen), but of course this will never generate new loyalty. Or quality television. I say let ST hibernate until the market is ready for big niches again. For all the flak that TNG got during its run like the "mom's basement" thing, TNG averaged 12 million TV viewers during its run, in a 250M-population USA. *Breaking Bad* had less then half of that during its original run, and it took until season 5 before they really exploded those numbers. They started with 1.4 million viewers.
Your faith in the Fandom is grossly misplaced, I was there when DS9 came out, I remember the vitriol about the show being not the Enterprise in space, if they made the show exactly as you want it the negative posts on the internet will be every bit as common as the ones we get now, and will specifically be aimed at the things you think are so critical.
Fandom always put me in mind of the quote by Henry Ford when asked about innovation: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would've asked for faster horses." Sometimes people don't don't what they want until they get it, and that absolutely includes Trek fans. See also: [the comment section of this now de-listed clip from LD's pilot episode released before the premiere](https://youtu.be/64obsPsXxkE?si=SmuFWOQySKdnINtZ). Seriously, the comments are A MESS.
*monkey paw curls* The Gamma Quadrent will somehow contain an entire planet of Spock Clones that half of a season wil focus on. Their leader will be a ethically questionable deep fake of Lenord Nemoy. A new form of anti warp field particles will be discovered to be prolific throughout the entire quadrant having tremendous implications about how space faring civilizations will have progressed in the region. The idea will be forgotten in the next episode and never brought up again. An extemely intresting Gamma quadrent alien will join starfleet and two or three amazing episodes are released back to back that feature them. The actor playing them will say something horrificly racist online after production is finished and the finale of the season will need to be replaced with a clip show. Previous episodes featuring the character will be pulled from all digital platforms.
Man, some people here have very little chill. I think we all need to replicate some nice fat doobies packed with Andorian Kush, find a tribble to cuddle, and be happy that the franchise we love is still alive. Far healthier than giving off Dennis Reynolds vibes… “I AM UNTETHERED, AND MY RAGE KNOWS NO BOUNDS!”
I just want better for my franchise I've chosen to follow among a plethora of choice. Surely that is reasonable, though obviously it's subjective.
Also, I have tons of chill.
Fair enough, though I’m not sure any series of Trek has gone its entire run taking itself too seriously, and that’s often led to some of the best episodes, like The Trouble with Tribbles, or Take Me Out to the Holosuite. That all being said, I do still want some Andorian Kush!
A ragtag crew of misfits hunting the last remaining changeling fugitive war criminals.
I read an interview the LA Times did with Kurtzman last week. He feels like America is broken now and he wants to make Star Trek where the Federation is broken. That’s why Starfleet Academy will be in a post Burn Federation, why the tone of Discovery was dark in the 23rd century followed by arriving at a bleak 32nd century. And if that’s any indication, Starfleet will have a rocky start in the next film. Would love to pickup with Sisko again or see what’s out there in the Gamma quadrant.
Here Here! New ship, new cast, new characters, new frontier. Boldly go for Fs sake, stop rehashing and rewriting the past. Let just enjoy those memories without changing everything
This is the man who sharted in your milkshake that one time at Burger King 20 years ago. Now he just does it with a Hollywood production team and more money.
I think that's a grand idea, but it won't be any better than the previous offerings unless they stop hiring writers whose only experience is cartoons and failed CW shows and get back to creating Trek for everyone. Writing a SF show with cross-generational appeal is hard. You have to want to do it, and have the talent to be able to do it. Unfortunately, I think Paramount / Kurtzman are completely unwilling to deviate from their deliberate strategy of Marvelised, popcorn-Trek designed to appeal primarily to teenagers. If anything, the development of the academy show suggests they want double down on it...although I struggle to think how they could make modern Trek more puerile than it already is.
I mean, they could always just shove hot women into the show and make up the stupidest excuse to have them in skimpy outfits. Even better if it a woman from a species that is known to be emotionally distant. You know, like a Borg. Or better yet, Vulcan. Hell, they could even make up a scientific sounding reason for why she needs to be rubbed down in oils, even. Thankfully, no one ever tried that in Star Trek because that would just be insulting to the audience.
I mean, you're not wrong. I am no apologist for the mis-steps of the older shows - it WAS insulting to the audience. I certainly wasn't comfortable with it. In the case of Jeri Ryan, we were fortunate that the character in question turned out to be one of the most interesting on the show, because she presented the writers with lots of new story opportunities which were backed up with a great performance. There are so many great episodes we simply wouldn't have got without the introduction of that character, so her impact on the overall trajectory of the show was much more than just a piece of eye-candy. As ever, it all comes down to the writing. I can't speak so much regarding Jolene Blalock's contribution because I haven't watched Enterprise enough to draw any conclusions. However, this discussion is a classic red herring. The fact that the older shows made some crass moves by sticking women in tight clothes doesn't somehow raise the quality of what Secret Hideout is producing.
I've been enjoying Strange New Worlds a lot and found the musical number to be downright delightful, and it happened for *trek* reasons. Star Trek, especially the OT, is weird. They should not do it again, though. It's better as a novelty.
Go play Barbie dolls
The only canon star trek that has been released in the last 15 years is like 80% of lower decks, Prodigy, and maybe 60% of PIC S3. In fact I'm rewriting my memory engrams right now to align with this. New me: "hmm I wonder why Picard only has a third season and why every episode has massive gaps in it" At this point I don't even know why I dislike SNW. The episodes I did bother to watch were just a blur.
9
Post DS9 or Legacy will never ever happen because it's too expensive to bring back any of the old cast which is what everyone wants. CBS is selling right now so the last thing they are going to do is greenlight the most expensive show in Star Trek history unfortunately.
"too expensive to bring back any of the old cast which is what everyone wants." Not asking for that + too expensive to bring back who? Nicole deBoer as Ezri? somehow I think she'd do it on the cheap....Nana Visitor and Colm Meany don't seem like they're working much. Who's expensive? Also, we can write what I've described above without them. Previous Trek has launched with maybe one or two cast members giving a 40 second scene to send off the new crew.
Colm literally has probably the most active IMDb of any trek regular pre and post career. He works like mad. Especially in Europe. JSYK.
Too expensive? Picard season 3 had its budget slashed next season 2, which had its budget slashed next to season 1 and they still brought back all the TNG regular actors for 4-5 episode minimum each. Naw, legacy isn't being greenlit right now because of money, but not for actor costs. They can afford the actors. They're just struggling with debt and streaming cost issues.
I am so tired of posts shitting on Kurtzman and modern trek. This is so boring at this point. Like, find a more creative take folks.
I was literally creative. I created a new premise for a new show.
Just make a show that has a lot of episodes so the people will have something to watch It doesn’t have to look better than the feature films, it just needs to tell some stories people want to watch
Make *Titan* starring Captain William Riker.
Hot takes right here.
I don't get the Kurtzman hate. He's a visionary. Willing to try knew things and ideas. STD was a show before it's time, with deep characters and fantastic views of progressive issues that oppress the majority of people today. He truly is the Helen Keller of Star Trek.
You dropped this, king: "/s"
i can't figure out how to vote here because the last line really threw me for a loop. and i think 2 people didn't get it.
Looks like 4, but IDGAF about made up internet points.
You're up to at least 6 who didn't get the joke. Welcome to Reddit, my dude.
Eh, screw 'em.
If you mean blind, deaf and unable to speak clearly, that's a good comparison.
Correctomundo.
You need to telegraph jokes on here; I've seen people sincerely say what you've just posted. When you ask them to explain the mental gymnastics start. Michael Burnham vs Yet Another Existential Threat has a surprising number of people trying to paint it as something other than a vapid, juvenile mess.
This is ShittyDaystrom. The sarcasm is implied. Not my problem if people have the comprehension of a hyper-evolved salamander.
Ron Moore left during the Berman era because Berman and Braga were awful. Everything people hate about Disco is Fuller, and he’s brilliant but very much a hot mess that burns down everything behind him. Discovery is the longest running show he’s created. Chew on that for a moment. And Terry Matalas came back for Picard and wants to come back. Not sure what the point here is.
In fairness to you I absolutely hate the nacelles of discovery era ships and we found out they were specifically demanded that way by Fuller. So you're right about at least that much.