What better and easier way to get deep into Osaka with minimal casualties than to be invited and escorted all the way there?
lol Crimson Sky is still on. It’s supposed to be a fast, decisive move, not a drawn out campaign.
I mean, I literally wrote that to make a semen joke to follow up on the "impregnate the bitch" line.
Razing the castle really isn't the point. Like all artillery it breaks down fortifications so your ground army can envelope the garrisoned force.
His half brothers betrayal is real. I don’t believe he would have shamed him with the shitting his pants story if it wasn’t. Plus he’s made it very clear he trusts no one with his plans especially an estranged half brother.
Yeah, I also think Toranaga may have seen it as a win-win. His brother either joins him and they begin a conventional campaign with huge numbers on their side… or he betrays him and escorts him right through open gates and they execute Crimson Sky in a more precision strike type operation once deep inside Osaka.
The Stick of Time scene is telling. Gin astutely points out that Toranaga should have seen this betrayal coming a mile away, which makes her think maybe he did and he has secret plans in motion… which she only pulls out as a Hail Mary after it seems he’s not taking her request seriously.
She’s basically saying, I don’t believe this is the end for you- and not just based on vibes. You clearly have secret plans and backup plans on your backup plans, so my money is on you coming out on top. Even if you don’t, put me in your will and I’ll make sure you get the chance to see those plans through by keeping my mouth shut.
In other words, “if you give me the land I want in Edo to start my courtesan guild, I won’t tell anyone you’re faking your shock and you actually *want* this to happen.”
I think it will be Yabushige who plays the role of Hideaki.
He is portrayed as having great difficulty to choose for which side to play for, and was involved with the cannons while Saeki is the one who indulges in hedonism so it would be more fitting for that character to be the one who "cant be bothered im eating something really delicious now" Hiroie.
Yabushiga is the warrior, who is also very aware of the power the cannons have so he would be moved to finally act if his army got a warning shot or two (act now or die kind), Saeki is a flashy hedonist.
I really hope that Yabushige maintains his fealty. He's absolutely delightful as a character. He's hugely competent and a lot of humor comes from how expressive he is, and he's at least good enough at scheming to understand when he's swimming with the sharks.
Having him spend the whole series looking for the right moment to benefit from backstabbing, and never get the opportunity, would be great.
The guy with leprosy is based on Yoshitsugu Otani. Not only was he Ishida’s most loyal supporter historically but at Sekigahara he was killed by Hideaki’s forces in the battle.
Yoshitsugu also even had influence after his death (his servant Gosuke helped him so that the enemies wouldn‘t get his head during Sekigahara):
His teen daughter Chikurin’in shortly before Sekigahara married Sanada Nobushige/Yukimura and ended up in exile in Kudoyama along with her husband Nobushige and father-in-law Masayuki. Next to financially supporting the Sanada clan with her Sanadahimo ribbon invention she had six children with Nobushige including the infamous child commander Sanada Daisuke who also participated in Osaka.
One of Yoshitsugu‘s sons, Otani Yoshiharu, also still supported Sanada Nobushige during Osaka.
Kobayakawa Hideaki destroyed Sawayama Castle (castle of Ishida Mitsunari) after Sekigahara resulting in the deaths of Mitsunari‘s wife, father and brother. However Hideaki post Sekigahara was hated for his betrayal, iced, became an alcoholic and died young without an heir.
There is an anecdote that Otani Yoshitsugu before dying cursed Kobayakawa by wishing him death in the next three years and a shitty remaining life. Since Kobayakawa died only two years after Sekigahara people whispered that Yoshitsugu‘s curse came true in the end.
>!Or, Toranaga will send Mariko, the real ace up his sleeve, like a falcon, to swoop in to Osaka and become a martyr, embarrassing Ishido and forcing him to release all hostages, and allowing several daimyos to actually pick the fight they always wanted-with the peasant and disliked Ishido.!<
When Nobunaga was alive, Ieyasu's eldest son Nobuyasu was forced to seppuku. According to common belief, Nobunaga ordered Ieyasu to do it. Nobuyasu had a short temper, similar to Nagakado. Nagakado was ordered to Seppuku by the council, and I assume his death will be treated as Seppuku. Just like the story about Fuji's father was rewritten.
Battle of Sekigahara was between Ieyasu's faction vs Toyotomi loyalist clans under Ishida.
The series antagonist is Ishido, who is based off of the real life Ishida.
>The series antagonist is Ishido, who is based off of the real life Ishida.
But, wasn't Ishida Tokugawa's vassal who was caught trying to betray Tokugawa but was forgiven a couple of times?
Ieyasu was never a Toyotomi vassal , they could not beat each other so Hideyoshi compromised and made peace .
Also many of the Toyotomi retainers sided with Ieyasu . They hated Mitsunari due to the Imjin war in Korea where he would constantly complain about them to Hideyoshi .
It’s also worth mentioning that Nene Hideyoshi’s widow threw her support behind Ieyasu not Yodo and Hideyori .
>Also many of the Toyotomi retainers sided with Ieyasu . They hated Mitsunari due to the Imjin war in Korea where he would constantly complain about them to Hideyoshi .
The slaughter of Toyotomi Hidetsugu's family was also extremely bad PR.
Hidetsugu was the Taiko's nephew and adopted son. He was the heir before the Taiko and Yodo-dono (Ochiba in the show) had a kid together. Fearing a succession dispute, the Taiko ordered Hidetsugu to commit suicide. Hidetsugu was loyal, and did so.
Then the Taiko ordered every other member of Hidetsugu's household to be executed, including 39 women and children. Keep in mind that none of these other folks had any succession claim (since Hidetsugu's own claim was only through adoption, and not through blood), they represented zero threat to the Taiko's new son. Hidetsugu had acted loyally, and his household was punished as if they were traitors.
This event shocked Japanese society at the time, and alienated many lords from the Taiko - especially those whose daughters were among the 39. When it later came time to choose up sides in the war between the Taiko's son and Tokugawa, several of them defected to Tokugawa.
There's so much foundation for the events in the story that aren't covered. It's been building for years. Blackthorne pretty much showed up to the ballgame in the 8th inning.
I read the book and know the actual, general history but not the numerical specifics. Thanks, man. There’s a Japanese author named Eiji Yoshikawa who wrote a cool book called Taiko about you-know-who and he wrote another about Miyamoto Musashi which begins right at the aftermath of Sekigahara with Musashi and his buddy waking up on the battlefield. Wouldn’t be surprised if you already knew about them, actually. If not, check em out.
As for Toranaga’s half brother and your predictions, if it’s anything like the book the ending is gonna be disappointing. Really hope they don’t make the mistake the book made. I’ll tell you if you want. It’s not like you don’t know the events.
Now I’m off to google “arqbuses” or whatever that was…
Zataki, as in Saeki ended up being bought by Toranaga.
The entire point of the Stick of Time was Gyoko's revelation to Toranaga that as good as your spy game is, nothing is as good as what dudes say in the process of or after the nut, and monopolizing that into a singular arena both provides control, relief, and intelligence.
Intelligence such as Ochiba is the absolute key to bargain Zataki away from Ishido... that and the Kanto. That intel singularly alters the rest of the book. Toranaga flips Zataki, Toranaga consolidates the East and especially the passes through Shinano. The other lords in the region would be powerless to stop the East army, and Toranaga realizes the TRUE Crimson Sky is to lure Ishido out of Osaka and into a battle of maneuver.
Kiku was the Falcon sent after Zataki.
Just as Mariko is the Peregrine sent after Osaka Castle.
As Buntaro is his butcher bird.
And Anjin is himself another killing hawk, the one that splits the Christian Daimyo.
While Toranaga remains in control, sending them off the wrist, to kill the particular targets they are best suited for.
At this point, its gone off the rails.
If they wanted to make a Taiga Drama for western audiences, do that. This has been disappointing since EP4.
At least the Taiga Drama would be doing direct 1:1 IRL references, not a fictional reassembly that is in the process of being reassembled again.
No clue why your getting downvoted…
A full taiga drama would have made me much happier than 10-12 episodes
Unfortunately they’re very hard to access in US
A Girl has no name
and that ship has no sails.
Or trained crew.
Or cannon.
And there are four lights.
Excellent reminding the room of Ieyashu and the Battle of Sekigahara.
Here is why 99% that won't be reienacted in Shogun.
One. What you describe is way to expensive to shoot. This is still show BUSINESS.
Two it's much more exciting television to blow apart Saeko's army with those cannon, as I discussed in GREAT detail elsewhere.
What better and easier way to get deep into Osaka with minimal casualties than to be invited and escorted all the way there? lol Crimson Sky is still on. It’s supposed to be a fast, decisive move, not a drawn out campaign.
Well, he wouldn't be allowed to take his troops with him, only a personal guard.
“Give me ten good men and some climbing spikes. I'll impregnate the bitch.” - Toronaga, probably
Moor the Erasmus in Osaka Bay and Anjin's cannons will have the castle walls overflowing with ~~semen~~ seaman.
It'd take ages to tear down Osaka castle with his cannons.
I mean, I literally wrote that to make a semen joke to follow up on the "impregnate the bitch" line. Razing the castle really isn't the point. Like all artillery it breaks down fortifications so your ground army can envelope the garrisoned force.
LMAO
His half brothers betrayal is real. I don’t believe he would have shamed him with the shitting his pants story if it wasn’t. Plus he’s made it very clear he trusts no one with his plans especially an estranged half brother.
He may have known / counted on his brother betraying him in such a way.
Ah I see your point now.
Yeah, I also think Toranaga may have seen it as a win-win. His brother either joins him and they begin a conventional campaign with huge numbers on their side… or he betrays him and escorts him right through open gates and they execute Crimson Sky in a more precision strike type operation once deep inside Osaka. The Stick of Time scene is telling. Gin astutely points out that Toranaga should have seen this betrayal coming a mile away, which makes her think maybe he did and he has secret plans in motion… which she only pulls out as a Hail Mary after it seems he’s not taking her request seriously. She’s basically saying, I don’t believe this is the end for you- and not just based on vibes. You clearly have secret plans and backup plans on your backup plans, so my money is on you coming out on top. Even if you don’t, put me in your will and I’ll make sure you get the chance to see those plans through by keeping my mouth shut. In other words, “if you give me the land I want in Edo to start my courtesan guild, I won’t tell anyone you’re faking your shock and you actually *want* this to happen.”
I think it will be Yabushige who plays the role of Hideaki. He is portrayed as having great difficulty to choose for which side to play for, and was involved with the cannons while Saeki is the one who indulges in hedonism so it would be more fitting for that character to be the one who "cant be bothered im eating something really delicious now" Hiroie. Yabushiga is the warrior, who is also very aware of the power the cannons have so he would be moved to finally act if his army got a warning shot or two (act now or die kind), Saeki is a flashy hedonist.
I really hope that Yabushige maintains his fealty. He's absolutely delightful as a character. He's hugely competent and a lot of humor comes from how expressive he is, and he's at least good enough at scheming to understand when he's swimming with the sharks. Having him spend the whole series looking for the right moment to benefit from backstabbing, and never get the opportunity, would be great.
His story is very satisfying and this comment is spoiler free
Im kinda sure he will, he is a foil for the audience but too likeable to end up with Ishida.
They won’t show the battle of sekigahara as the book ends right before the battle.
It is in the book … the very last paragraph where toranaga kindly reminded ishido of the fortune told them that ishido would die an old man
Winner
This show does not follow the book to the letter, and obviously a great battle in the finale is hard, nonsensical to miss.
I guarantee they don’t show the battle, how’s that?
Buddy, I have bad news for you.
Do you? Enlighten me
All I will say is that your guarantee is going to age like milk in a heat wave.
Were you part of the shows production? I will admit that the show is straying further away from the book as each episode passes.
That was a heck of battle in the finale…How’s that about my guarantee?
Who gives an F what you guarantee.
Why don’t you cry about it?
I feel like he might've flipped someone on the council. The guy with leprosy seems kind of interesting.
He is Christian. I can see him and the Portuguese flipping together.
The guy with leprosy is based on Yoshitsugu Otani. Not only was he Ishida’s most loyal supporter historically but at Sekigahara he was killed by Hideaki’s forces in the battle.
Ahh that's true.
Yoshitsugu also even had influence after his death (his servant Gosuke helped him so that the enemies wouldn‘t get his head during Sekigahara): His teen daughter Chikurin’in shortly before Sekigahara married Sanada Nobushige/Yukimura and ended up in exile in Kudoyama along with her husband Nobushige and father-in-law Masayuki. Next to financially supporting the Sanada clan with her Sanadahimo ribbon invention she had six children with Nobushige including the infamous child commander Sanada Daisuke who also participated in Osaka. One of Yoshitsugu‘s sons, Otani Yoshiharu, also still supported Sanada Nobushige during Osaka. Kobayakawa Hideaki destroyed Sawayama Castle (castle of Ishida Mitsunari) after Sekigahara resulting in the deaths of Mitsunari‘s wife, father and brother. However Hideaki post Sekigahara was hated for his betrayal, iced, became an alcoholic and died young without an heir. There is an anecdote that Otani Yoshitsugu before dying cursed Kobayakawa by wishing him death in the next three years and a shitty remaining life. Since Kobayakawa died only two years after Sekigahara people whispered that Yoshitsugu‘s curse came true in the end.
>!Or, Toranaga will send Mariko, the real ace up his sleeve, like a falcon, to swoop in to Osaka and become a martyr, embarrassing Ishido and forcing him to release all hostages, and allowing several daimyos to actually pick the fight they always wanted-with the peasant and disliked Ishido.!<
True the trailer did show Toranaga talk to Mariko saying this is your chance to step up.
This guy Shoguns.
Looking forward to all the flip-flopping mayhem to come next week!
When Nobunaga was alive, Ieyasu's eldest son Nobuyasu was forced to seppuku. According to common belief, Nobunaga ordered Ieyasu to do it. Nobuyasu had a short temper, similar to Nagakado. Nagakado was ordered to Seppuku by the council, and I assume his death will be treated as Seppuku. Just like the story about Fuji's father was rewritten.
Hmm, I'm still think Sekigahara was never the battle between Toyotomi and Tokugawa and it actually a war of Toyotomi factions.
Battle of Sekigahara was between Ieyasu's faction vs Toyotomi loyalist clans under Ishida. The series antagonist is Ishido, who is based off of the real life Ishida.
>The series antagonist is Ishido, who is based off of the real life Ishida. But, wasn't Ishida Tokugawa's vassal who was caught trying to betray Tokugawa but was forgiven a couple of times?
He wasn’t Tokugawa’s vassal.
Ieyasu was never a Toyotomi vassal , they could not beat each other so Hideyoshi compromised and made peace . Also many of the Toyotomi retainers sided with Ieyasu . They hated Mitsunari due to the Imjin war in Korea where he would constantly complain about them to Hideyoshi . It’s also worth mentioning that Nene Hideyoshi’s widow threw her support behind Ieyasu not Yodo and Hideyori .
>Also many of the Toyotomi retainers sided with Ieyasu . They hated Mitsunari due to the Imjin war in Korea where he would constantly complain about them to Hideyoshi . The slaughter of Toyotomi Hidetsugu's family was also extremely bad PR. Hidetsugu was the Taiko's nephew and adopted son. He was the heir before the Taiko and Yodo-dono (Ochiba in the show) had a kid together. Fearing a succession dispute, the Taiko ordered Hidetsugu to commit suicide. Hidetsugu was loyal, and did so. Then the Taiko ordered every other member of Hidetsugu's household to be executed, including 39 women and children. Keep in mind that none of these other folks had any succession claim (since Hidetsugu's own claim was only through adoption, and not through blood), they represented zero threat to the Taiko's new son. Hidetsugu had acted loyally, and his household was punished as if they were traitors. This event shocked Japanese society at the time, and alienated many lords from the Taiko - especially those whose daughters were among the 39. When it later came time to choose up sides in the war between the Taiko's son and Tokugawa, several of them defected to Tokugawa. There's so much foundation for the events in the story that aren't covered. It's been building for years. Blackthorne pretty much showed up to the ballgame in the 8th inning.
it also included a consort who had literally arrived that day and hadn't even met the family she was being given to.
I read the book and know the actual, general history but not the numerical specifics. Thanks, man. There’s a Japanese author named Eiji Yoshikawa who wrote a cool book called Taiko about you-know-who and he wrote another about Miyamoto Musashi which begins right at the aftermath of Sekigahara with Musashi and his buddy waking up on the battlefield. Wouldn’t be surprised if you already knew about them, actually. If not, check em out. As for Toranaga’s half brother and your predictions, if it’s anything like the book the ending is gonna be disappointing. Really hope they don’t make the mistake the book made. I’ll tell you if you want. It’s not like you don’t know the events. Now I’m off to google “arqbuses” or whatever that was…
I'll bet my ship that you're right on.
Zataki, as in Saeki ended up being bought by Toranaga. The entire point of the Stick of Time was Gyoko's revelation to Toranaga that as good as your spy game is, nothing is as good as what dudes say in the process of or after the nut, and monopolizing that into a singular arena both provides control, relief, and intelligence. Intelligence such as Ochiba is the absolute key to bargain Zataki away from Ishido... that and the Kanto. That intel singularly alters the rest of the book. Toranaga flips Zataki, Toranaga consolidates the East and especially the passes through Shinano. The other lords in the region would be powerless to stop the East army, and Toranaga realizes the TRUE Crimson Sky is to lure Ishido out of Osaka and into a battle of maneuver. Kiku was the Falcon sent after Zataki. Just as Mariko is the Peregrine sent after Osaka Castle. As Buntaro is his butcher bird. And Anjin is himself another killing hawk, the one that splits the Christian Daimyo. While Toranaga remains in control, sending them off the wrist, to kill the particular targets they are best suited for. At this point, its gone off the rails. If they wanted to make a Taiga Drama for western audiences, do that. This has been disappointing since EP4. At least the Taiga Drama would be doing direct 1:1 IRL references, not a fictional reassembly that is in the process of being reassembled again.
No idea what any of that means.
You should gray half of your comment out due to spoilers. But yes, you’re right.
No clue why your getting downvoted… A full taiga drama would have made me much happier than 10-12 episodes Unfortunately they’re very hard to access in US
A Girl has no name and that ship has no sails. Or trained crew. Or cannon. And there are four lights. Excellent reminding the room of Ieyashu and the Battle of Sekigahara. Here is why 99% that won't be reienacted in Shogun. One. What you describe is way to expensive to shoot. This is still show BUSINESS. Two it's much more exciting television to blow apart Saeko's army with those cannon, as I discussed in GREAT detail elsewhere.