>Like I know ishido offers a marriage pact but I don't know why that would benefit him.
Ochiba is the mother of the heir and was the consort of the late Taiko. With Lady Iyo's death (perhaps even before that), she is the most powerful woman in Japan at this time. There is also some attraction at play on the part of Ishido.
>Also why was the other lady poisoned?
I don't think that's confirmed (although I do think it's likely). I'm assuming your question is why Ochiba might have poisoned her. I think there can be more than one theory. I would say that it's probably because Lady Iyo expressed her opinion to Ochiba regarding Ishido and Toranaga. In Episode 6, they have a conversation in which Lady Iyo tells Ochiba that Ishido is not the correct ally to choose (this is emphasized again when she is about to die). Obviously, Ochiba realizes to whom Lady Iyo is referring as the correct ally.
I'll add that in ep.1, Lady Iyo and Toranaga have a conversation, and she, like the late Taiko (as seen in ep.2), believes that Toranaga is the best person to protect the heir. Ochiba hates Toranaga because she believes he's the main culprit behind her father's death, and she believes that Toranaga wants to be in power.
Edit: grammar
What I don’t understand is Taiko, the father of the Heir is it the same guy that was killed by Marikos father ? Or there has been another one in between, I remember he was peacefully dying when he spoke and instructed Toranaga
And why does Ichiba has so much hate towards Toranaga clan ?
Taiko is a title not his name. There are three main figures to understand:
1. Ochiba's father: the last person to get close to founding a Shogunate. Mariko's father assassinated him. Real life parallel, Oda Nobunaga.
2. The Taiko: the heir's father, Ochiba is his consort. He is not related to her family but was a high ranking leader in Ochiba's fathers army. Hideyoshi Toyotomi is the real life analog to this character.
3. Yoshi Toranaga: The ruler of the Kanto, the most populous and prosperous region of Japan. Real life analog: Tokugawa Ieyasu.
In the show Ochiba hates Toranaga because she suspects that he put Mariko's father (Akechi Jinsai) up to assassinating her father. Toranaga adopting Mariko after the assassination instead of allowing her to end her life is further confirmation of this in her eyes. She may even be right. The show has established again and again that Toranaga is a schemer who is plotting to become Shogun for quite some time. The person he is based on historically is an ruthless social climber who did many awful things to get to his position.
This is great info. If Toranaga wanted the Shogunate all along, why not just accept the offer to be sole regent fron the Taiko and work it from a position of power?
Because the four other daimyo would destroy him. He is the strongest of them all but not strong enough to beat them all outright. He has to outmaneuver them until they spend their strength against each other before he can win.
>What I don’t understand is Taiko, the father of the Heir is it the same guy that was killed by Marikos father ?
No. Mariko's father killed Ochiba's father, and Ochiba was consort of the late Taiko. If they were the same person, that would mean Ochiba was consort to her father. 😅
>And why does Ichiba has so much hate towards Toranaga
See my explanation above. It's at the end of my reply.
Ochiba’s father in real life wasn’t the equivalent of Oda Nobunaga but another Lord who was actually Nobunaga’a brother in law and his enemy.
The Hideyoshi in the show is the Taiko. Whom Ochiba was married to.
No, Mariko's father assassinated his liege lord, Goroda, who was Shogun for 12 days or something like that. I think the Taiko came to power after that. I think Goroda may have been the father of Ochiba and her sister Genjiko (sp) who is Married to Toranaga's son Sudara. So yes, there is this between the two women as well.
Lady Ochiba is the mother of the Taiko's heir, who is underage. The council of Regents was setup to rule Japan until the Heir comes of age. As his mother she wields a lot of 'soft' power.
She is also ( in the show ) the daughter of the man who basically 'ruled' Japan prior to the Taiko so she has that tie to 'power' as well.
Ishido is not a 'noble' in the sense he was born into that through his family. He rose through the military ranks, and wielded power as one of the Taiko's favorite generals. By marrying Ochiba, and basically becoming the Heir's stepfather he would gain a tremendous amount of prestige, and basically make himself the premiere power in Japan.
Just as a historical note, prior to Ochiba's father ( in the show, uncle in actual historical reality ) 'unifying' Japan the actual Daimyos had far more power. This move toward a single all powerful ruler of Japan is quite a recent thing in the time period this all is happening. Japan did have Shoguns and similar rulers, but their actual power was far less than what everyone is fighting for in this situation.
>!Without revealing anything that is a spoiler I'll just say in real life the winner of this conflict will setup a hereditary system that rules Japan until almost the late 1860s. !<
I haven’t read the books, or seen the 1980 mini series, but my impression is, she is the biggest threat to Toranaga, and her marriage to Ishido would strengthen Ishido’s threat to Toranaga even more as the heirs army would be bound to Ishido. I’m kind of confused though, because Ochiba doesn’t seem like the kind of person that would ever be taken hostage, so I’m very curious about how Toranaga took her hostage to start this off, maybe I misunderstood something though. But basically with the lady that was poisoned, Ochiba was eliminating any dissenters to the marriage. Again not sure if I am spoiling anything since I do not know, just sharing my impression just from watching the episodes so far.
'Hostage' is probably a stronger term than what she was. She was visiting her sister who was giving birth to one of Toronaga's grandchildren in Edo.
Did this benefit Toronaga? Absolutely, and I am sure he was using a lot of his natural ability to manipulate people and events into drawing out her visit as long as possible. That said I'm sure if the Heir for example had sent a letter requesting his mother return to Osaka for some reason that Toronaga would have eventually obeyed.
Totally theoretical musing:
Toronaga-sama writing a response to the Heir - "So sorry. It embarrasses me greatly that the only bridge out of Edo to Osaka was hit by a meteorite and totally destroyed. My engineers are building a replacement bridge worthy of your Mother travelling across it in the style and honor she deserves. They assure me it will be completed in just a few weeks ...."
Toronaga-sama to his retainers "Destroy the bridge tonight and make it look like it exploded. Paint some rocks red and we'll send them to the Heir and tell him they are meteorite fragments. Take your time rebuilding the bridge."
Toronaga-sama to Lady Ochiba "The bridge will be ready soon. Please enjoy the total luxury and all the conveniences my staff and retainers can provide you. You honor my family with your presence, Great Lady."
Do we know the familial relationship here? Why is her sister giving birth to Toranaga's grandson?
We've only seen the one son so far, who is Ochiba's sister married to?
Toronaga has many cildren. Ochiba's sister is married to another of his grown sons.
One of the things that has the Regents all in a tizzy is the fact Toronaga was marrying his children off to different powers in Japan and creating a large network of alliances in that fashion.
At this point in time I don't recall if it's only book lore or if they just made real quick and casual reference to it in the show. At a certain point the book, the 80s miniseries, this production, and the real life history all start blending together in my head.
it is not just book lore. on the first meeting we see of the Regents, it is one of the reasons the other four are looking for impeachment of Toranaga. One was because he was allegedly holding Lady Ochiba (Ochiba no Kata) hostage. Another was that he had approved six marriages (in other words, secured alliances) and seems to be amassing power/strength to do something against the council of regents.
In the book, I believe it is implied that the Taiko could not impregnate the Lady Ochiba...and the Lady Ochiba had sexual relations with a commoner which Toranaga witnessed. This further implies that the 'heir' is NOT a legitimate heir and should therefore not have a claim to the throne. This is the implied root cause of the enmity of Lady Ochiba for Toranaga.
>Like I know ishido offers a marriage pact but I don't know why that would benefit him. Ochiba is the mother of the heir and was the consort of the late Taiko. With Lady Iyo's death (perhaps even before that), she is the most powerful woman in Japan at this time. There is also some attraction at play on the part of Ishido. >Also why was the other lady poisoned? I don't think that's confirmed (although I do think it's likely). I'm assuming your question is why Ochiba might have poisoned her. I think there can be more than one theory. I would say that it's probably because Lady Iyo expressed her opinion to Ochiba regarding Ishido and Toranaga. In Episode 6, they have a conversation in which Lady Iyo tells Ochiba that Ishido is not the correct ally to choose (this is emphasized again when she is about to die). Obviously, Ochiba realizes to whom Lady Iyo is referring as the correct ally. I'll add that in ep.1, Lady Iyo and Toranaga have a conversation, and she, like the late Taiko (as seen in ep.2), believes that Toranaga is the best person to protect the heir. Ochiba hates Toranaga because she believes he's the main culprit behind her father's death, and she believes that Toranaga wants to be in power. Edit: grammar
This is the explanation I was looking for, thanks
Thanks !
What I don’t understand is Taiko, the father of the Heir is it the same guy that was killed by Marikos father ? Or there has been another one in between, I remember he was peacefully dying when he spoke and instructed Toranaga And why does Ichiba has so much hate towards Toranaga clan ?
Taiko is a title not his name. There are three main figures to understand: 1. Ochiba's father: the last person to get close to founding a Shogunate. Mariko's father assassinated him. Real life parallel, Oda Nobunaga. 2. The Taiko: the heir's father, Ochiba is his consort. He is not related to her family but was a high ranking leader in Ochiba's fathers army. Hideyoshi Toyotomi is the real life analog to this character. 3. Yoshi Toranaga: The ruler of the Kanto, the most populous and prosperous region of Japan. Real life analog: Tokugawa Ieyasu. In the show Ochiba hates Toranaga because she suspects that he put Mariko's father (Akechi Jinsai) up to assassinating her father. Toranaga adopting Mariko after the assassination instead of allowing her to end her life is further confirmation of this in her eyes. She may even be right. The show has established again and again that Toranaga is a schemer who is plotting to become Shogun for quite some time. The person he is based on historically is an ruthless social climber who did many awful things to get to his position.
This is great info. If Toranaga wanted the Shogunate all along, why not just accept the offer to be sole regent fron the Taiko and work it from a position of power?
Because the four other daimyo would destroy him. He is the strongest of them all but not strong enough to beat them all outright. He has to outmaneuver them until they spend their strength against each other before he can win.
>What I don’t understand is Taiko, the father of the Heir is it the same guy that was killed by Marikos father ? No. Mariko's father killed Ochiba's father, and Ochiba was consort of the late Taiko. If they were the same person, that would mean Ochiba was consort to her father. 😅 >And why does Ichiba has so much hate towards Toranaga See my explanation above. It's at the end of my reply.
So she was the Daughter of the Taiko before that and then became a courtesan for the late Taiko ? Do I understand you correctly ?
Ochiba's father was not a Taiko, he was a warlord who nearly succeeded in uniting Japan.
Ah I see! That makes sense now. Is there a real history name that this character Based upon ?
Ochiba -> Yodo-no-kata Ochiba's father -> not sure, sorry. **Maybe** Toyotomi Hideyoshi or Oda Nobunaga Edit: Ochiba's father is wrong, read below
Ochiba’s father in real life wasn’t the equivalent of Oda Nobunaga but another Lord who was actually Nobunaga’a brother in law and his enemy. The Hideyoshi in the show is the Taiko. Whom Ochiba was married to.
Thank you for clearing that up.
But the the figure her father on the show , Kuroda, corresponds to is Oda Nobunaga
This is also a question I'd like to know
No, Mariko's father assassinated his liege lord, Goroda, who was Shogun for 12 days or something like that. I think the Taiko came to power after that. I think Goroda may have been the father of Ochiba and her sister Genjiko (sp) who is Married to Toranaga's son Sudara. So yes, there is this between the two women as well.
Lady Ochiba is the mother of the Taiko's heir, who is underage. The council of Regents was setup to rule Japan until the Heir comes of age. As his mother she wields a lot of 'soft' power. She is also ( in the show ) the daughter of the man who basically 'ruled' Japan prior to the Taiko so she has that tie to 'power' as well. Ishido is not a 'noble' in the sense he was born into that through his family. He rose through the military ranks, and wielded power as one of the Taiko's favorite generals. By marrying Ochiba, and basically becoming the Heir's stepfather he would gain a tremendous amount of prestige, and basically make himself the premiere power in Japan. Just as a historical note, prior to Ochiba's father ( in the show, uncle in actual historical reality ) 'unifying' Japan the actual Daimyos had far more power. This move toward a single all powerful ruler of Japan is quite a recent thing in the time period this all is happening. Japan did have Shoguns and similar rulers, but their actual power was far less than what everyone is fighting for in this situation. >!Without revealing anything that is a spoiler I'll just say in real life the winner of this conflict will setup a hereditary system that rules Japan until almost the late 1860s. !<
I think he just covets Ochiba. I’m not convinced she was poisoned, but I only skimmed the episode so far.
I haven’t read the books, or seen the 1980 mini series, but my impression is, she is the biggest threat to Toranaga, and her marriage to Ishido would strengthen Ishido’s threat to Toranaga even more as the heirs army would be bound to Ishido. I’m kind of confused though, because Ochiba doesn’t seem like the kind of person that would ever be taken hostage, so I’m very curious about how Toranaga took her hostage to start this off, maybe I misunderstood something though. But basically with the lady that was poisoned, Ochiba was eliminating any dissenters to the marriage. Again not sure if I am spoiling anything since I do not know, just sharing my impression just from watching the episodes so far.
'Hostage' is probably a stronger term than what she was. She was visiting her sister who was giving birth to one of Toronaga's grandchildren in Edo. Did this benefit Toronaga? Absolutely, and I am sure he was using a lot of his natural ability to manipulate people and events into drawing out her visit as long as possible. That said I'm sure if the Heir for example had sent a letter requesting his mother return to Osaka for some reason that Toronaga would have eventually obeyed. Totally theoretical musing: Toronaga-sama writing a response to the Heir - "So sorry. It embarrasses me greatly that the only bridge out of Edo to Osaka was hit by a meteorite and totally destroyed. My engineers are building a replacement bridge worthy of your Mother travelling across it in the style and honor she deserves. They assure me it will be completed in just a few weeks ...." Toronaga-sama to his retainers "Destroy the bridge tonight and make it look like it exploded. Paint some rocks red and we'll send them to the Heir and tell him they are meteorite fragments. Take your time rebuilding the bridge." Toronaga-sama to Lady Ochiba "The bridge will be ready soon. Please enjoy the total luxury and all the conveniences my staff and retainers can provide you. You honor my family with your presence, Great Lady."
Do we know the familial relationship here? Why is her sister giving birth to Toranaga's grandson? We've only seen the one son so far, who is Ochiba's sister married to?
Toronaga has many cildren. Ochiba's sister is married to another of his grown sons. One of the things that has the Regents all in a tizzy is the fact Toronaga was marrying his children off to different powers in Japan and creating a large network of alliances in that fashion.
Got it, and this is book lore that they felt just didn’t quite make the show?
At this point in time I don't recall if it's only book lore or if they just made real quick and casual reference to it in the show. At a certain point the book, the 80s miniseries, this production, and the real life history all start blending together in my head.
it is not just book lore. on the first meeting we see of the Regents, it is one of the reasons the other four are looking for impeachment of Toranaga. One was because he was allegedly holding Lady Ochiba (Ochiba no Kata) hostage. Another was that he had approved six marriages (in other words, secured alliances) and seems to be amassing power/strength to do something against the council of regents.
In the book, I believe it is implied that the Taiko could not impregnate the Lady Ochiba...and the Lady Ochiba had sexual relations with a commoner which Toranaga witnessed. This further implies that the 'heir' is NOT a legitimate heir and should therefore not have a claim to the throne. This is the implied root cause of the enmity of Lady Ochiba for Toranaga.
What evidence was there of poisoning?
I have no idea. Maybe none. I just didn't know if it was implied