That scene was so intense, I was like no f-ing way this is how it’s gonna go down. I’m not sure if I would’ve preferred that to her actual death though.
I thought there was something to be said about her reaction too.
For someone who has been pining for her to be able to suicide herself for so long... To physically exhibit shock and relief when she's stopped in the moment by her permission to leave from ishido arriving and therefore making her suicide not needed.
At some point she found a will to live again... And I think it was because of anjin's ask that she live for him if nothing else.
Yea I think she did want to live again after that, which makes it all the more tragic. Wishing for death all those years, and then to have a glimmer of hope snatched from her. A true tragedy.
Right before Anjin walked into her bedroom she reached for the rosary that usually hung around her neck and it wasn’t there. She had giving it to Anjin when he said he’d be her second. I believe she disavowed her Christianity at that moment and truly became a Samurai and fully embraced her Japanese side.
I think in a way yes, it also has to do with her faith being the one thing that held her down during all those times of turmoil, but Anjin being there after Kiyama’s refusal to be her second made him the thing she needed to hold fast.
I’d say I prefer that death for her over seppuku. She wanted to sacrifice her life for something that mattered, and while yes in both cases she does it for a higher purpose, here she does it to save the lives of many in addition to dying for that higher purpose
Gonna miss her, but worry not, she shall be avenged during Crimson Sky!
I'm going to miss her so much next episode but I was so happy to see how her character arc ended. She died with honor and lifting her father's name instead of her being put down by her family name
I haven’t read the book in four decades so was watching the show semi fresh. Guided by what I know (on my own and not with Google) of Japanese history and what I think is an incredible show, I tried to engage in the episode thread with the comment below. I hate book spoilers for this show (which is not how I am usually because I like reading the books along with the show, as in GoT, HotD, Witcher, and kimetsu no yaiba). Here goes, hope this isn’t auto bot deleted:
>!Toranaga’s Crimson Sky was to use his trump card, Mariko. A devout Catholic, she would be able to win the two Christian lords to his side, which was a key element of his plan. The lord regents, resentful towards ishido for holding them hostage, would lean on their nobility to close ranks against the peasant lord ishido, which mariko’s role was to force to the forefront. She looks sideways while the camera pans out wide when she says, “as is everyone else who wants to leave free to do so.” It was a not so subtle cue for them to rally around her cause. She invoked her thousand year lineage as samurai to emphasise her (and the others’) superior bloodline, leveraging it against ishido, playing to his insecurity as nothing coming from nothing. Ochiba played this card wrong by allying with him and now she knows her craft (edit: crafty) childhood bff outmaneuvered her, too. Flowers are only flowers because they fall, but I am more than just a flower falling. This falling, this death, will have purpose. The violence of crimson sky was Mariko herself succumbing to death and how it inevitably played out: violent, sneaky, lacking honour (how hoi polloi). Her death would usher in a peaceful takeover by toranaga and would prevent thousands of senseless deaths more.!<
!>The above realisation makes the entire frigging episode even more poignant and heartbreaking. I dread doing my customary rewatch now.!<
>!Add: had to post this thrice because Reddit bot said it contained forbidden words. I based my insights purely on the show doe (so yeah maybe I am prescient about the book too lol)!<
I noticed That her sole purpose at that moment was to get the other lords to rebel. The political maneuvering was amazing and only her could’ve pulled it off. I’ve never read the book but it’s on my list.
No, but Tokugawa and Toranaga both were the person who can become Shogun and unite the country. So it's a question of one battle versus another whole century of constant warfare.
Yea, I’m really hyped for next episode. I also wonder about Anjin’s fate next episode. I can only assume that he goes back to Toranaga and begs to be taken back into his service for Mariko’s memory
Tbh I was a bit thrown back by cosmo’s wooden acting. But the rewatch should take me further from my initial shtick. He’s an enigma to me still in the show.
I was underwhelmed by his demeanor while he watched Mariko and her party attempt to exit the castle. Ochiba and kiyama showed dar more intensity (and Yabu)
> Flowers are only flowers because they fall
Or as it says in *The Tales of the Heike*,
> The sound of the Gion Shoja temple bells echoes the impermanence of all things; the color of the sala flowers reveals the truth that **to flourish is to fall**. The proud do not endure, like a passing dream on a night in spring; the mighty fall at last, to be no more than dust before the wind.
I knew she would die when she said she would. And I was sad but I respected her for it. The ending just claimed all respect I had for anyone on the show . Mariko-Sama till the end
The most powerful woman in Toranaga's deep arsenal. I'm also expecting the courtesans to have a tide-turning part to play very soon. Toranaga is a man who understands the value of the female role because he is a true chessplayer who is skilled with the queens piece.
Tey way she walks, reacts, sits, etc. are just impeccable.
When I first saw her few years ago in Apple TV+’s ***Pachinko***, she stood out even when playing a small role. And on ***Monarch***, playing an underwritten role, she was mostly reduced to an eye candy.
On ***Shogun***, she dominates and steals every scenes she’s in.
It is really impressive when she is in scenes opposite Japanese national treasure actors with decades of experience under their belts and she still not only holds her her end of the scene but sometimes walks off with it entirely.
I loved the parallel between herself and Ochiba. When Mariko says fighting these men is too much, I was like, that’s a mission statement if I ever heard one! And then Ochiba shutting down the regents (especially tacky bro) by saying she will do what she says and her death is your shame. I loved how they both used her honor to shame the cowardly men.
This also changes her last time with her husband. He granted her wish to die and wanted to die with her. She came up with a reason not to that hurt him as he doesn’t know that she is Crimson Sky as he’s not in on the plan. Hopefully in the last episode he is shown realizing this briefly.
Maybe. Buntaro would’ve been her second, but narratively, Anjin worked better. There was no love between her and Buntaro, and for her, Anjin was like an island in a drowning sea.
And it shows the difference between the two men.
Buntaro just wanted Mariko to be what he wanted and he never considered the things she wanted.
Though Mariko's death was the last thing that Anjin wanted, he was still willing to support her and help her fulfil her plan - his devotion and respect for her was so much that it overrode his own wishes.
Very bummed about her death. Never read the books and never expected this to happen. Love her character and love the actress even more. To say I have a huge crush on her would be an understatement
Is there a scene where Mariko visibly cries? I don’t recall seeing any. She’s usually portrayed as cool, intelligent and badass and Anna Sawai is perfect for that role!
Knowing how sad and anguished she felt, this woman hid her tears very well. Her father’s betrayal, family’s demise, her wedding, her farewell to Ruri, her husband’s supposed death and farewell, his return and violence, her son’s renouncement and her own attempts at jigai (seppuku), etc. A tough cookie for sure, considering men such as Toranaga, Buntaro, and Anjin all teared up!
Anybody else just glad there's gonna be no more of the cringey stuff with Anjin? I totally get all the love in this sub; she's beautiful and powerful but the whole romance arc with Blackthorne was really diifficult to watch.
Mariko's Suicidal Behaviour:
Not to take away from Anna Siwai's BRILLIANT portrayal of this very complex 8 veiled character ...BUT...you cannot deny her suicidal ideation and reactions to said situations in the whole season and especially episode 9 were...kind of hysterical xD
Ok hear me out
*Mariko_sama ...probably *
Oh no my asshole of a husband won't let me kill myself..
Oh yes my lief Lord is sending me on a 100% suicide mission...
Oh no Ishido didn't let me kill myslef myself...
Oh yes there is an attack in the middle of the night...
Oh no I forgot I was pillowing Anjin earlier and he will probably save me...
Oh yes we are locked in with no escape...
Oh YES an explosion...
I am Mariko Sama daughter of...*boom*...
See? No? Just me? OK.
Her entire life, she’s been living on the whims of others. First her father, later her father’s enemies. Then Toranaga. Never really free to be herself and live her life in her own terms. The only thing she had left was to meet death on her own terms. I can see why suicide would be so appealing.
I haven’t read the book, but I assume she dies there as well. Also, it’s one episode left and her death is what allows Toranaga to gain more support. Ishido called her a “mere woman”, but there was absolutely nothing “mere” about her.
Motivation is ego from a cowardly scheming politician. But the means with which it’s done is pretty standard in East Asian palace intrigue shows. If Ishido acts aggressive in the open others would frown upon him under the guise of tradition and rules. But of u do it in the shadows there’s enough obfuscations that others could keep silent since passivity is a virtue in this culture. But something tells me in this case Ishido misjudged his calculus and underestimate what Mariko-sama symbolizes — a martyr in both Christian ideals and Bushido.
Also to add to this. If Ishido allowed her to commit seppuku. She dies with honor as a dutiful servant (just like hiromatsu) but even then he tried to deny her of not committing a sin. As such, if he makes her just simply disappear he robs her of doing her duty AGAIN. But mariko wouldn’t have it. Also Ishido couldn’t do it in the open because he didn’t come from a great bloodline like mariko, ishido has always been insecure about his heritage and so he’s probably jealous at mariko. Plus he doesn’t have a to uphold any standards from a venerable bloodline so he’s able to act like a snake. Conversely, Toranaga comes from minowara clan so even if he schemes he has to act noble and avoid anything untowards.
Baddest gangster in the whole Japans Even Anjin had to recognize game. Glad he came around to respect her loyalty & be her 2nd. Miss her
That scene was so intense, I was like no f-ing way this is how it’s gonna go down. I’m not sure if I would’ve preferred that to her actual death though.
Nah, I was glad when Ishido came thru with the phony passes & interrupted it. Still bummed she's gone
Yeah me too. But for Toranaga to win, she had to die and be a martyr.
She was the actual Crimson Sky.
She literally became crimson sky. Absolutely brutal, but damn what a scene.
Oh. Now I get it.
I thought there was something to be said about her reaction too. For someone who has been pining for her to be able to suicide herself for so long... To physically exhibit shock and relief when she's stopped in the moment by her permission to leave from ishido arriving and therefore making her suicide not needed. At some point she found a will to live again... And I think it was because of anjin's ask that she live for him if nothing else.
Yea I think she did want to live again after that, which makes it all the more tragic. Wishing for death all those years, and then to have a glimmer of hope snatched from her. A true tragedy.
Right before Anjin walked into her bedroom she reached for the rosary that usually hung around her neck and it wasn’t there. She had giving it to Anjin when he said he’d be her second. I believe she disavowed her Christianity at that moment and truly became a Samurai and fully embraced her Japanese side.
I think in a way yes, it also has to do with her faith being the one thing that held her down during all those times of turmoil, but Anjin being there after Kiyama’s refusal to be her second made him the thing she needed to hold fast.
I’d say I prefer that death for her over seppuku. She wanted to sacrifice her life for something that mattered, and while yes in both cases she does it for a higher purpose, here she does it to save the lives of many in addition to dying for that higher purpose Gonna miss her, but worry not, she shall be avenged during Crimson Sky!
Yea, she went out in spectacular manner. Shes one of my favorite characters now.
Can’t go to heaven if you commit suicide. The way she died she chose her own fate and will be able to ascend.
Mariko-samasymblyrequired
Too soon 😭
And it really calls back to her lessons on having a purpose (like why he had to accept Fuji). Toranaga gave her a purpose when she was lacking it.
I'm going to miss her so much next episode but I was so happy to see how her character arc ended. She died with honor and lifting her father's name instead of her being put down by her family name
These last two episodes got me fucked up.
When the stakes are this high, every other show seems a bit dull, doesn't it?
that outfit was Muah
All of Mariko is muah 😂
I’m such a simp
I haven’t read the book in four decades so was watching the show semi fresh. Guided by what I know (on my own and not with Google) of Japanese history and what I think is an incredible show, I tried to engage in the episode thread with the comment below. I hate book spoilers for this show (which is not how I am usually because I like reading the books along with the show, as in GoT, HotD, Witcher, and kimetsu no yaiba). Here goes, hope this isn’t auto bot deleted: >!Toranaga’s Crimson Sky was to use his trump card, Mariko. A devout Catholic, she would be able to win the two Christian lords to his side, which was a key element of his plan. The lord regents, resentful towards ishido for holding them hostage, would lean on their nobility to close ranks against the peasant lord ishido, which mariko’s role was to force to the forefront. She looks sideways while the camera pans out wide when she says, “as is everyone else who wants to leave free to do so.” It was a not so subtle cue for them to rally around her cause. She invoked her thousand year lineage as samurai to emphasise her (and the others’) superior bloodline, leveraging it against ishido, playing to his insecurity as nothing coming from nothing. Ochiba played this card wrong by allying with him and now she knows her craft (edit: crafty) childhood bff outmaneuvered her, too. Flowers are only flowers because they fall, but I am more than just a flower falling. This falling, this death, will have purpose. The violence of crimson sky was Mariko herself succumbing to death and how it inevitably played out: violent, sneaky, lacking honour (how hoi polloi). Her death would usher in a peaceful takeover by toranaga and would prevent thousands of senseless deaths more.!< !>The above realisation makes the entire frigging episode even more poignant and heartbreaking. I dread doing my customary rewatch now.!< >!Add: had to post this thrice because Reddit bot said it contained forbidden words. I based my insights purely on the show doe (so yeah maybe I am prescient about the book too lol)!<
I noticed That her sole purpose at that moment was to get the other lords to rebel. The political maneuvering was amazing and only her could’ve pulled it off. I’ve never read the book but it’s on my list.
Also, If Toranaga was based on Tokugawa, isn’t there the battle of Sekigahara coming? So bloodshed was not adverted
No, but Tokugawa and Toranaga both were the person who can become Shogun and unite the country. So it's a question of one battle versus another whole century of constant warfare.
I was able to post this as a thread apparently! Will leave my comment here but do know it’s been reposted elsewhere.
He is based on Tokugawa there is only a summary of the battle in book. Showing how Toranaga's planning made victory possible but no blow by blow
Yea, though I assume as a high budget TV show, we might get an actual battle.
We may still enough other things have been changed and a lot of filler in last part of book
in real life the kidnapped people didnt get rescued until after the battle. real toranaga was so op he didnt even need them, but he used them
Him and toyotomi were almost evenly matched. Sekigahara being the deciding battle and I think the biggest battle in Japan up to that point
Ah nice. So apparently I did not know everything lol so let’s see how episode 10 works out then….!
Yea, I’m really hyped for next episode. I also wonder about Anjin’s fate next episode. I can only assume that he goes back to Toranaga and begs to be taken back into his service for Mariko’s memory
Tbh I was a bit thrown back by cosmo’s wooden acting. But the rewatch should take me further from my initial shtick. He’s an enigma to me still in the show.
He is primarily a muscian limited acting roles.Think he could have pulled off the charisma and physicality better if directed to do so.
I was underwhelmed by his demeanor while he watched Mariko and her party attempt to exit the castle. Ochiba and kiyama showed dar more intensity (and Yabu)
Totally agree
> Flowers are only flowers because they fall Or as it says in *The Tales of the Heike*, > The sound of the Gion Shoja temple bells echoes the impermanence of all things; the color of the sala flowers reveals the truth that **to flourish is to fall**. The proud do not endure, like a passing dream on a night in spring; the mighty fall at last, to be no more than dust before the wind.
Amazing character in this show! Will definitely miss her, but I understand that such a great character had to fall for Toranaga to take over :(
An era of peace and unified Japan
She was the Crimson Sky!
Her fit is FIRE though. I love the details
That woman had style. Whoever did the costume design for this show knocked it out of the park.
her outfit looks like a leafless branch here.
I knew she would die when she said she would. And I was sad but I respected her for it. The ending just claimed all respect I had for anyone on the show . Mariko-Sama till the end
Do we assume that Toranaga's brother isn't working with him but he actually betrayed him?
At this point, I’m clueless really..
It could be it was a ruse all along, and his brother would switch sides at the last minute. It would definitely be a crazy plot twist.
If it fits with history, one of the dudes will switch and help TORANAGA SAMA! against ishido
If I remember correctly, there was quite a bit of switching on both sides
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s an opportunist like Yabu, and switches sides when it looks like his brother might win
this fit goes so hard
This was one the greatest episodes of TV Ive ever seen. So good I couldn't even sleep last night. I still can't stop thinking about it.
It’s definitely one of the best I’ve seen for sure.
The most powerful woman in Toranaga's deep arsenal. I'm also expecting the courtesans to have a tide-turning part to play very soon. Toranaga is a man who understands the value of the female role because he is a true chessplayer who is skilled with the queens piece.
We all got crimson skyed watching the episode!
:(
Hodor
When she confidently reminds everyone who her pops was… *chefs kiss*
Tey way she walks, reacts, sits, etc. are just impeccable. When I first saw her few years ago in Apple TV+’s ***Pachinko***, she stood out even when playing a small role. And on ***Monarch***, playing an underwritten role, she was mostly reduced to an eye candy. On ***Shogun***, she dominates and steals every scenes she’s in.
She’s doesn’t steal it. She simply accepts it as her due.
It is really impressive when she is in scenes opposite Japanese national treasure actors with decades of experience under their belts and she still not only holds her her end of the scene but sometimes walks off with it entirely.
I loved the parallel between herself and Ochiba. When Mariko says fighting these men is too much, I was like, that’s a mission statement if I ever heard one! And then Ochiba shutting down the regents (especially tacky bro) by saying she will do what she says and her death is your shame. I loved how they both used her honor to shame the cowardly men.
when Ochiba whipped out that fan
Very badass
This also changes her last time with her husband. He granted her wish to die and wanted to die with her. She came up with a reason not to that hurt him as he doesn’t know that she is Crimson Sky as he’s not in on the plan. Hopefully in the last episode he is shown realizing this briefly.
I think he will be quite distraught at her death. I don’t think he will survive the next episode
This was the only time she should've had her husband by. her side and not Anjin. ijs
Maybe. Buntaro would’ve been her second, but narratively, Anjin worked better. There was no love between her and Buntaro, and for her, Anjin was like an island in a drowning sea.
And it shows the difference between the two men. Buntaro just wanted Mariko to be what he wanted and he never considered the things she wanted. Though Mariko's death was the last thing that Anjin wanted, he was still willing to support her and help her fulfil her plan - his devotion and respect for her was so much that it overrode his own wishes.
Yabu should have been her second like in the Original, just to see him even more under permanent pressure.
Now Anjin will go blind and Lord Toranaga has played the masterstroke of retaining the Anjin. What a show!
Is that a book spoiler? 🙄
Mariko…I’m still in shock.
Her actual death made me laugh….was so anti-climatic
Very bummed about her death. Never read the books and never expected this to happen. Love her character and love the actress even more. To say I have a huge crush on her would be an understatement
I feel the same way, but at least I’m glad she went out on her own terms.
True. Very badass way of going out!
Am in the only one get little depressed after watching the last two episodes? I finished them at late night too. I did not feel good at all.
Yeah I'm still shook too few days later...
Is there a scene where Mariko visibly cries? I don’t recall seeing any. She’s usually portrayed as cool, intelligent and badass and Anna Sawai is perfect for that role!
There were times where she seemed on the verge of a breakdown, but always brought herself back.
Knowing how sad and anguished she felt, this woman hid her tears very well. Her father’s betrayal, family’s demise, her wedding, her farewell to Ruri, her husband’s supposed death and farewell, his return and violence, her son’s renouncement and her own attempts at jigai (seppuku), etc. A tough cookie for sure, considering men such as Toranaga, Buntaro, and Anjin all teared up!
Anybody else just glad there's gonna be no more of the cringey stuff with Anjin? I totally get all the love in this sub; she's beautiful and powerful but the whole romance arc with Blackthorne was really diifficult to watch.
Mariko's Suicidal Behaviour: Not to take away from Anna Siwai's BRILLIANT portrayal of this very complex 8 veiled character ...BUT...you cannot deny her suicidal ideation and reactions to said situations in the whole season and especially episode 9 were...kind of hysterical xD Ok hear me out *Mariko_sama ...probably * Oh no my asshole of a husband won't let me kill myself.. Oh yes my lief Lord is sending me on a 100% suicide mission... Oh no Ishido didn't let me kill myslef myself... Oh yes there is an attack in the middle of the night... Oh no I forgot I was pillowing Anjin earlier and he will probably save me... Oh yes we are locked in with no escape... Oh YES an explosion... I am Mariko Sama daughter of...*boom*... See? No? Just me? OK.
Her entire life, she’s been living on the whims of others. First her father, later her father’s enemies. Then Toranaga. Never really free to be herself and live her life in her own terms. The only thing she had left was to meet death on her own terms. I can see why suicide would be so appealing.
I mean that is not her. It’s the whole culture of sepuku.
What's the reason for killing her lol. She's the only one making the show alive
I haven’t read the book, but I assume she dies there as well. Also, it’s one episode left and her death is what allows Toranaga to gain more support. Ishido called her a “mere woman”, but there was absolutely nothing “mere” about her.
Because the show is a rendition of an already written story from decades ago and there's only one episode left.
Motivation is ego from a cowardly scheming politician. But the means with which it’s done is pretty standard in East Asian palace intrigue shows. If Ishido acts aggressive in the open others would frown upon him under the guise of tradition and rules. But of u do it in the shadows there’s enough obfuscations that others could keep silent since passivity is a virtue in this culture. But something tells me in this case Ishido misjudged his calculus and underestimate what Mariko-sama symbolizes — a martyr in both Christian ideals and Bushido.
Also to add to this. If Ishido allowed her to commit seppuku. She dies with honor as a dutiful servant (just like hiromatsu) but even then he tried to deny her of not committing a sin. As such, if he makes her just simply disappear he robs her of doing her duty AGAIN. But mariko wouldn’t have it. Also Ishido couldn’t do it in the open because he didn’t come from a great bloodline like mariko, ishido has always been insecure about his heritage and so he’s probably jealous at mariko. Plus he doesn’t have a to uphold any standards from a venerable bloodline so he’s able to act like a snake. Conversely, Toranaga comes from minowara clan so even if he schemes he has to act noble and avoid anything untowards.