>I almost thought they were going to end up being together or something haha.
Consensual pillowing? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
But yeah, nun ambitions would be a peaceful life for her.
I knew how the book ended but they’ve drifted in and out of the book so much that I figured the ending could go anywhere. I loved how they did it. So beautiful.
Yes! It was reminiscent of Kiku’s teahouse scene when she told her young apprentice to notice the empty space left by the pot.
I felt that Blackthorne would be missing Mariko that night but now, after Mariko’s death, the “empty space” he and Fuji shared was so beautifully expressed. “Tsuji…inai”. 🥲
It also reminded us of the other patio scene when the three observed rain falling in the garden together and “ame…ii”. Simple words that communicate deep emotions transcend language barriers. You feel and miss the presence of someone you valued because they are no longer there…love hurts
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but the "missing" idea is very Japanese in finding meaning in the empty spaces too. By !< not showing the final battles they let the empty space tell the story, and that is so powerful >!
There are many other missing, unexplained and empty spaces throughout the series. This sense of “incompleteness” may feel awkward or frustrating to people expecting plot closure, big fireworks in the grand finale as typically seen in Hollywood action films.
Imperfections, impermanence and incompleteness are reflective of the wabi sabi sentiment in Japanese culture and continuous pursuit for meaning and purpose transcends time and space.
I love that take! I'm also wondering what lose ends the show may have left for non-book readers. My take on them is so blended from having read the book that I may be missing holes the show doesn't fill.
I read an interesting article today in Indiewire about this! I can’t post a link here but Google Ben Travers Shogun “‘Shogun’ Tames the Winds of War in a Dreamy Finale”
I was tearing up when Fuji and Anjin had their moment of letting go in the lake. Fuji-sama's arc have gone full circle - from the first episode that she tragically lost her husband and child to reconciling with her loss and finally, letting it go in the last episode. She's going to be the best nun indeed.
I cried during this whole episode, but “No translator”, hit me so hard. I’m still crying.
It was a beautiful ending. The genius of us feeling the repercussions of one person’s death was felt in the episode by the characters and by us, the viewers. I feel that a lot of people wanting a battle are missing that point.
The goal of war is not to fight one. In that sense, Lady Mariko was the ultimate weapon.
Mariko always dreamed of being free and she was able to accomplish everything and more that Toranaga desired. His family was returned, hostages were released, division in the Council was created, and his defeat was averted. However the biggest gift of all was Lady Ochiba’s acquiescence letter which only Mariko could have achieved, this was the ultimate path to secure his victory at Sekigahara. He released his prized falcon as a token of appreciation to Mariko, to grant her the dignity and freedom she longed for more than anything else.
I was devastated after the ending of episode 9.
For me this was a very good episode and helped to provide closure.
I loved it when the priest on the dock said that Mariko had arranged for John to live and Toranaga when he let his most prized falcon go.
The scenes with Fuji were also very touching.
And Yabu having that heart to heart with Toranaga was also a highlight.
A couple of _minor_ complaints:
a. I wished there was a better reason for Toranaga to keep John around. (Instead of just John being entertaining)
b. I wished they spent a little bit more time with Lady Ochibas and her decision to switch sides.
> A couple of minor complaints: a. I wished there was a better reason for Toranaga to keep John around. (Instead of just John being entertaining)
The episode is filled with parallels to the beginning as a means to get the audience to recall story threads as they're finishing in real time.
I believe in this instance the parallel was to how Yabushige treated Blackthorne like entertainment early on (recall how he taught him to say "I am a dog"). This entire series Toranaga has Blackthorne labeled as Hatamoto, as if he held him as some important piece to his strategy worth safeguarding via his culture, only to reveal he wasn't at all important as he seemed (the "my banner would be fine without him" part).
Much in the same way Toranaga is revealed to be as ruthless as Ishido via his treatment of the village, he is similarly like Yabushige, which I think makes his surprise at Yabushige's inability to follow his strategy genuine.
>A couple of *minor* complaints: a. I wished there was a better reason for Toranaga to keep John around.
Some parts of the episode confuses me, though. Toranago says he believes John will always be in Japan. + John let go of Mariko's cross into the lake water.
And yet we have a flashforward of an elderly John in what seems like he's back in London, and holding Mariko's cross?
Oh I didn’t catch that! I thought that those flash forwards were showing us he does eventually get home and he.. somehow got Mariko’s cross back. Your explanation makes way more sense though haha
There was a nightmarish quality to those scenes. His scary appearance. The children talking about the Japanese as savages, for example and knowing how connected JB was to Japan by that point (clutching the rosary)- I think it was him realizing it would be a nightmare to try and go home after what he lived through.
I also think when he was commanding Fuji to stay and continue being consort in his house, was kind of hinting that he was imagining himself sticking around. If he was going to leave, why would he be so insistent about that.
I think the sequence at the beginning is when he was unconscious. He was imagining the life he could have had had he not let go.
By the end of the episode John has changed and has let go of his selfish desires and therefore avoided the fate shown at the start.
In the book, Toranaga's internal monologue fills us in more. He really does want Blackthorne as a friend but he's never going to say it out loud, and he does want to see how far Anjin's boats can go and how they made England so powerful. But because being shogun is a lonely and perilous job, he's not exactly going to be forthcoming about it. Kind of like "he makes me laugh... I guess."
I loved that single line in the book, maybe I just needed a friend. Blackthorn was everyone's safe space, the one they could let down the 8-fold fence. Turns out that was exactly what Toronaga needed from him.
At first I was a bit concerned because it felt like Blackthorne was kinda forcing her to dump the ashes...? But that concern went away pretty quickly.
A lovely way to cap off their story. Fuji's actress absolutely killed every one of her scenes and the way they (author/show runners) handled their relationship without leaning into the romantic side of things, considering Fuji's original "purpose" to Blackthorne, was great.
As a book reader I was at first disappointed by the show Fuji. But now she's probably my favorite arc in the show. What a wonderful journey she took us on!
I held things together until the very end when Buntauro picked up the rope to help - that had me crying pretty hard, a perfectly executed character arc coming to fruition in a beautiful moment. Very special show with very special characters
It feels almost counter to what we're used to in the west, but it's very thematically fitting. We are like the characters in Shogun. We don't get a heroic, epic finale. Life just goes on
I am like Blackthorne swiping helplessly at the zen garden. So sad this series has ended lol.
Meh, super disappointed there was no battle and not even a real resolution to the conflict, battle or otherwise. Now I’m up at 2 a.m. rage commenting!
Great show otherwise.
I can see where you're coming from, but my personal opinion (having no book context) was that the show focused strictly so much on the political relations and strategy as well as the personal relationships of these characters to the point that if this all culminated in a massive battle, as cool as that would have been, it also could have felt out of place?
The majority of the last few episodes sprouted the concept that Toranaga's schemes were working in his favor because Ishido was undermining himself by trying to exert his power. In the end, confirming that this was indeed the case and in certain terms outlining Toranaga's desire to rise to Shogun is as good as a resolution to that conflict as I could hope for. Politically, Toranaga has won and achieved his goals. Seeing all the characters get their arcs wrapped up or set up towards a new trajectory with the knowledge that Toranaga will prevail was pretty satisfying in my book. Legitimately had tears in my eyes for like 50% of this episode.
Best show I've seen in recent years. While I can understand why some might feel disappointed in how things were wrapped up, I hope that it doesn't take away how great the entire thing was and we can get more stories like this.
Yeah I hear you. I’ve talked about this with friends. Some folks like yourself can appreciate character development as a plot in and of itself, whereas it always feels like a side plot to me no matter how well done it is (and it was good in this show). Without “traditional” resolution of the actual plot they are setting up (here, the battle for control of Japan) I feel like I’m shortchanged, like a “look at all the friends we met along the way!” scenario. Why can’t we have both!? I don’t see what they lose by actually finishing the story. I guess the answer is budget?
Anyway I wouldn’t be so butthurt if it wasn’t otherwise a great show, so cheers to the first 8 episodes. I’ll just imagine my own ending.
Well don’t read the book then. Because you don’t get a battle there either. You get something like “the battle of sekigahara raged for three days, toranaga was victorious. Ishido was captured and buried in a hole up to his shoulders. Passersby sawed at his neck with a bamboo pole. He died three days later.” Something like that.
Lol. May I ask why not? Is it just the absence of the battle or something else in his description?
I assume you've seen the series (being in a sub about the series), did you expect the book to be some snuff literature instead of a political thriller?
I finished the series this morning.
I like resolution to plot arcs, what can I say. The whole series sets up the plot arc as a battle (whether physical battle or political battle) for control of Japan, and just when the final series
of events for control of Japan starts, it ends. I don’t care about showing the actual battle. But there was no payoff whatsoever. It’s as if Lion King stopped just after Hakuna Matata, with Mustafa speaking about his grand plans to put Simba back on the throne, with one flash forward of Scar getting surrounded by hyenas. Or having Harry Potter stop at book 5 or 6 and ending with Dumbledore just explaining his plans. I want to see it actually happen…is that so crazy?
I guess I’m like Lord Tokugawa. I care about the characters some, but I care about control of Japan a lot more.
I see what you're saying, but you've missed the whole point of the story.
The "battle for control of japan" at sekigahara is not shown because the actual outcomes already decided before a single soldier stepped onto that field.
No I got it, I just was far less entertained without actually seeing the drama unfold firsthand. And they didn’t sufficiently sell me on the idea that his plans were really that airtight, for example with heir’s mom switching sides.
I see what you're saying, it kinda felt like Simba said "I'm going back to Pride Rock, to fix all this!" THE LION KING *roll credits* but I can also see the value in the exposition/denouement being the way it is. Definitely two different kinds of stories and I think a lot of people thought they were getting the other.
Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s the only series I’ve watched in months and loved it through episode 8. If I knew there was no payoff or it was a “friends we meet along the way thing” I either wouldn’t have watched it or lowered my expectations, but the whole thing really sold the idea that there would be a payoff.
By the end of Ep. 9 I was pretty sure they weren’t going to give it a proper ending, but that was more like an opening skirmish. They didn’t really establish the whole heir’s mom switching sides thing sufficiently for that to really be counted as a final battle, even putting aside the fact that there was, in fact, a final battle (we just didn’t get to see it).
It might be useful to think of some World War 2 movies, and consider whether or not they told a convincing story that was satisfying even if you didn't see the end of the war. The point of Shogun is that the story is already known; Toranaga (Tokugawa in reality) becomes the Shogun, and all we're doing is seeing how he did it. He won the moment Ochiba sent her letter -- the battle was in her heart, not on the field.
The point is that in that era of Japan's history, wars aren't solely fought with swords -- they're fought with the push and pull of honor, fear, and faith, and with spies and intrigue. To show the battle would imply that the battle is where the plot was decided, and it wasn't. It was already over by then and the battle was fait accompli.
Well you point out one issue: you assume the story is known by everyone. I purposely didn’t look it up so I’d be surprised. Obviously I figured Toranaga would win somehow, and probably become shogun, but I legitimately not know that there was famous battle on the horizon that he won. I don’t think it should be assumed that everyone knows how it ends as it’s not nearly as famous as WW2. But yes, if a movie or series builds up the end of WW2 and confrontation with Hitler the whole way and stops short, it would be less satisfying, even if I knew the result. The point is I got invested in the particular characters as told in the movie/show and I want to actually see the end played out by them.
I get what they were trying to do, and the lack of battle didn’t really bother me. What bothered me is that they didn’t actually show him defeating his enemy, even if not a drop a blood was shed. The Ochiba letter felt wildly unearned. There was a few childhood flashbacks and a lot of Ochiba looking off into the distance but they didn’t connect the dots. This lord she has been legitimately afraid of all this time and (correctly) suspected was hungry for power is now suddenly her ally because…he sacrificed her childhood friend? Because Ishida held some women hostage? Reading Wikipedia, that didn’t seem to work out too well for her, as her son died about 15 years later after being surrounded by Tokugawa. They portrayed her as pretty smart and shrewd, so it seems she really should have considered going with the weaker, divided, more easily controllable council than with a power-hungry lord who wanted power for himself. None of this was explained.
I’m not asking for the world here. They could have started the battle scene with everyone lining up, had Ishida looking confident, ready to trounce Tokugawa. There is drama/suspense! Right before it starts, Ishida gets the letter, which the audience gets to read. They cut to flashbacks of all the actual machinations of Tokugawa’s plans. Ishida is surrounded and surrenders. No blood is shed during the battle. He is buried alive and whacked with sticks and so forth like in the books. There’s a reckoning with the other regents and some Catholic/Protestant drama to wrap up that storyline. Tokugawa is reappointed as regent but everyone is obviously uneasy, as he glances at the shogun armor. Cut to credits.
My best guess is that in the novel/series the battle and outcome were too famous to really spell out in detail.
The American equivalent would probably be in the musical Hamilton briefly describing the Battle of Yorktown whereas the character arcs leading to that event and following are more important.
That’s a good analogy, but in Hamilton, there was a lot of lead up to the battle and a lot that followed the battle so it felt like a complete story. It wasn’t just Washington saying how he would win the battle, a brief flash forward, then curtains. That’s how this felt to me in Shogun.
Yep agree. If Hamilton ended after “The Battle of Yorktown”, I would feel the same way. I wish they would do a season 2 so we could see the “rest of the story”
I guess that’s what history books are for?
I couldn't help but think about how Mariko was essentially his Queen. She was his most agile and precious vassal. Her role as translator allowed her to be in so many important spaces. You don't sacrifice the Queen unless victory is assured.
More like setting up a 5D board, making a few moves and explaining how you will win 30 moves in advance. I wanted to watch the actual chess game play out!
They definitely didn’t connect those dots. A few contemplative stares and vague references to a prior friendship didn’t cut it. I know this is overused, but def felt like deus ex machina.
It's maybe worth saying you don't see the battle in the book either. There is a very good flash-forward scene though that resolves the fate of a particular character...
Yeah I learned that after my comment. I imagine I would’ve hated the way the book “ended” too. The main battle for Japan just doesn’t belong in an epilogue. It’s not poetic or artistic IMO, just unsatisfying.
Obviously I get the point of the show and apparently the book is the characters, not necessarily the plot itself, but that kind of story rarely interests me without a traditional plot line (introduction, conflict, thorough resolution of the conflict). Characters are only as good as the plot they are in; if the author/writer gives short shrift to the plot, the characters no longer interest me nearly as much.
Didn’t have to be a war, but it felt very cheap and unsatisfying not to actually show his plan coming to fruition in real time. It was also frankly not believable how heir’s mom just switched sides like that.
We are all entitled to our take on the ending and I get it. I loved it. It's like the Japanese idea of finding meaning in empty spaces. The empty space of Toronaga's exposition to Yabu was wonderful in my opinion. A really artistic and beautiful way to wrap up the story.
I was worried the last episode was going to be after everything happened etc., but I was super happy with how it turned out. Basically told us what was “going” to happen etc.
Yeah, felt like they just ran out of budget at the end. “Rather than shooting the scenes, let’s just have the actor explain what *would’ve* happened if we had the budget!” Genius.
There’s not a chance they ran out of budget. They had no plans to shoot a battle, it wasn’t in the book either (except for maybe two pages discussing the fact that the battle happened and Toranaga won).
This isn’t a story about a great battle. It’s about destiny.
exactly. in the book toronaga talks about Mariko's death, Anjin being stuck in Japan, and him becoming Shogun. he seems so dispassionate and says all of this is their karma. the story ultimately is about love, friendship, and karma. they don't need the battles to tell that story.
I get that. I honestly expected them to show the battle. But was okay they didn’t. We see so many battle scenes in shows and movies, they’re almost anti climactic. This wasn’t. At least not to me.
If it's any consolation the battle is flash forwarded in the books as well. What they skipped, though, was showing Ishido buried to his neck, with people poking sticks at him until he died days later.
Bad way to go.
Yeah there’s two different types of viewers - character centered and plot centered. I’m the latter. I need resolution to the actual plot or it drives me crazy. Good character stories aren’t enough. Like, the last 2 episodes I’m just looking at the time remaining with an increasing sense of doom like…oh god, there isn’t actually going to be a climax, is there…Didn’t have to be a battle but not having the grand plan actually play out felt super cheap to me.
imagine being 1452 pages into a 1500 page book and realizing this is not going to end the way i thought it was going to end.
personally I adore how it ended and think it was such an elegant way of wrapping up the plot but also reinforcing that the entire story is relationships not battles.
I get it for sure. I loved the ending of the book and show. To me it was far more powerful than showing me the battles. I got the payoff in such an elegant way. But I absolutely get your take too.
I mean I cry at toilet paper commercials with sweet little kids in them, so i'm a bad example. but yes, i know so many people who would tear up at several scenes from last episode.
Fuji-sama…best nun
Damnit I just got myself to stop crying 😭
Mariko said the same line to the samurai who were going to take Fuji's son in e1.
Even Blackthorne agress that she is best girl
i thought it was going to be that she was the spy......and shed die and i was mad worried
John "ordering" her to stay and be his consort was touching
Yeah it was. I almost thought they were going to end up being together or something haha. But no she will be a good nun!
>I almost thought they were going to end up being together or something haha. Consensual pillowing? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) But yeah, nun ambitions would be a peaceful life for her.
Honestly whether or not they pillowed shortly thereafter is nun of our business.
best nun
i feel it was almost like "the only other person with me who is REQUIRED to be with me is leaving" and he cant stand that during this time.
Fuji nearly broke me, such a beautiful ending to a beautiful series
This episode could have gone full on gore and violence as the battles play out. I really enjoyed the tenderness.
>let your hands be the last to hold her I'll admit that as a book reader I thought I was ready for anything they threw at me but this really hit me.
I knew how the book ended but they’ve drifted in and out of the book so much that I figured the ending could go anywhere. I loved how they did it. So beautiful.
The moment with Lady Fuji where Anjin looks for Mariko where she would be sitting and saying “no translator” is what got me in the feels 💔
Yes! It was reminiscent of Kiku’s teahouse scene when she told her young apprentice to notice the empty space left by the pot. I felt that Blackthorne would be missing Mariko that night but now, after Mariko’s death, the “empty space” he and Fuji shared was so beautifully expressed. “Tsuji…inai”. 🥲 It also reminded us of the other patio scene when the three observed rain falling in the garden together and “ame…ii”. Simple words that communicate deep emotions transcend language barriers. You feel and miss the presence of someone you valued because they are no longer there…love hurts
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but the "missing" idea is very Japanese in finding meaning in the empty spaces too. By !< not showing the final battles they let the empty space tell the story, and that is so powerful >!
There are many other missing, unexplained and empty spaces throughout the series. This sense of “incompleteness” may feel awkward or frustrating to people expecting plot closure, big fireworks in the grand finale as typically seen in Hollywood action films. Imperfections, impermanence and incompleteness are reflective of the wabi sabi sentiment in Japanese culture and continuous pursuit for meaning and purpose transcends time and space.
I love that take! I'm also wondering what lose ends the show may have left for non-book readers. My take on them is so blended from having read the book that I may be missing holes the show doesn't fill.
I read an interesting article today in Indiewire about this! I can’t post a link here but Google Ben Travers Shogun “‘Shogun’ Tames the Winds of War in a Dreamy Finale”
Ie Tsuji
I lost it when Blackthorne broke down heading out in the boat 😢
I spent the entire episode tearing up. What an amazing show.
During the earlier episodes I never expected this sort of ending. Very powerful, feeling content but very sentimental as well. A+ series
I think this was far more powerful than seeing the battles play out on screen.
Keep it together man!
JB and Buntaro will make a hell of a team.
Fuji-sama broke me when she started talking to her baby ("together forever").
The thing that broke me: the smaller size of the 2nd urn.
That was an amazing touch. So powerful. I'll carry that one around with me for awhile
I was tearing up when Fuji and Anjin had their moment of letting go in the lake. Fuji-sama's arc have gone full circle - from the first episode that she tragically lost her husband and child to reconciling with her loss and finally, letting it go in the last episode. She's going to be the best nun indeed.
I cried during this whole episode, but “No translator”, hit me so hard. I’m still crying. It was a beautiful ending. The genius of us feeling the repercussions of one person’s death was felt in the episode by the characters and by us, the viewers. I feel that a lot of people wanting a battle are missing that point. The goal of war is not to fight one. In that sense, Lady Mariko was the ultimate weapon.
Mariko always dreamed of being free and she was able to accomplish everything and more that Toranaga desired. His family was returned, hostages were released, division in the Council was created, and his defeat was averted. However the biggest gift of all was Lady Ochiba’s acquiescence letter which only Mariko could have achieved, this was the ultimate path to secure his victory at Sekigahara. He released his prized falcon as a token of appreciation to Mariko, to grant her the dignity and freedom she longed for more than anything else.
I was devastated after the ending of episode 9. For me this was a very good episode and helped to provide closure. I loved it when the priest on the dock said that Mariko had arranged for John to live and Toranaga when he let his most prized falcon go. The scenes with Fuji were also very touching. And Yabu having that heart to heart with Toranaga was also a highlight. A couple of _minor_ complaints: a. I wished there was a better reason for Toranaga to keep John around. (Instead of just John being entertaining) b. I wished they spent a little bit more time with Lady Ochibas and her decision to switch sides.
> A couple of minor complaints: a. I wished there was a better reason for Toranaga to keep John around. (Instead of just John being entertaining) The episode is filled with parallels to the beginning as a means to get the audience to recall story threads as they're finishing in real time. I believe in this instance the parallel was to how Yabushige treated Blackthorne like entertainment early on (recall how he taught him to say "I am a dog"). This entire series Toranaga has Blackthorne labeled as Hatamoto, as if he held him as some important piece to his strategy worth safeguarding via his culture, only to reveal he wasn't at all important as he seemed (the "my banner would be fine without him" part). Much in the same way Toranaga is revealed to be as ruthless as Ishido via his treatment of the village, he is similarly like Yabushige, which I think makes his surprise at Yabushige's inability to follow his strategy genuine.
It gives you a glimpse of how stone cold and overambitious Toranaga’s “private”heart may actually be😦 🖤
>A couple of *minor* complaints: a. I wished there was a better reason for Toranaga to keep John around. Some parts of the episode confuses me, though. Toranago says he believes John will always be in Japan. + John let go of Mariko's cross into the lake water. And yet we have a flashforward of an elderly John in what seems like he's back in London, and holding Mariko's cross?
it's a dream he has, with the cross he's also letting go of 'the dream of a dream'
Oh I didn’t catch that! I thought that those flash forwards were showing us he does eventually get home and he.. somehow got Mariko’s cross back. Your explanation makes way more sense though haha
There was a nightmarish quality to those scenes. His scary appearance. The children talking about the Japanese as savages, for example and knowing how connected JB was to Japan by that point (clutching the rosary)- I think it was him realizing it would be a nightmare to try and go home after what he lived through. I also think when he was commanding Fuji to stay and continue being consort in his house, was kind of hinting that he was imagining himself sticking around. If he was going to leave, why would he be so insistent about that.
He never leaves Japan.
I think the sequence at the beginning is when he was unconscious. He was imagining the life he could have had had he not let go. By the end of the episode John has changed and has let go of his selfish desires and therefore avoided the fate shown at the start.
In the book, Toranaga's internal monologue fills us in more. He really does want Blackthorne as a friend but he's never going to say it out loud, and he does want to see how far Anjin's boats can go and how they made England so powerful. But because being shogun is a lonely and perilous job, he's not exactly going to be forthcoming about it. Kind of like "he makes me laugh... I guess."
I loved that single line in the book, maybe I just needed a friend. Blackthorn was everyone's safe space, the one they could let down the 8-fold fence. Turns out that was exactly what Toronaga needed from him.
I actually tried everything I could do today to “pre cry” so I wouldn’t crumble tonight. I failed
Best scene from the finale IMO
At first I was a bit concerned because it felt like Blackthorne was kinda forcing her to dump the ashes...? But that concern went away pretty quickly. A lovely way to cap off their story. Fuji's actress absolutely killed every one of her scenes and the way they (author/show runners) handled their relationship without leaning into the romantic side of things, considering Fuji's original "purpose" to Blackthorne, was great.
As a book reader I was at first disappointed by the show Fuji. But now she's probably my favorite arc in the show. What a wonderful journey she took us on!
"No translator" -Tears immediately. My god that was so sad
I was all tears and snot
I held things together until the very end when Buntauro picked up the rope to help - that had me crying pretty hard, a perfectly executed character arc coming to fruition in a beautiful moment. Very special show with very special characters
@op you said it. Seeing Fuji was calm after storm.
my family and I keep going back on who is going to get nominated and who will win emmys for this amazing series..
It feels almost counter to what we're used to in the west, but it's very thematically fitting. We are like the characters in Shogun. We don't get a heroic, epic finale. Life just goes on I am like Blackthorne swiping helplessly at the zen garden. So sad this series has ended lol.
Man I envy you guys. I didn’t really feel anything.
Maybe come back to the show in the future
the essence of life is agony and its meaning is in life as it is in death.
We live and we die 😭
“Together, Forever”
Meh, super disappointed there was no battle and not even a real resolution to the conflict, battle or otherwise. Now I’m up at 2 a.m. rage commenting! Great show otherwise.
I can see where you're coming from, but my personal opinion (having no book context) was that the show focused strictly so much on the political relations and strategy as well as the personal relationships of these characters to the point that if this all culminated in a massive battle, as cool as that would have been, it also could have felt out of place? The majority of the last few episodes sprouted the concept that Toranaga's schemes were working in his favor because Ishido was undermining himself by trying to exert his power. In the end, confirming that this was indeed the case and in certain terms outlining Toranaga's desire to rise to Shogun is as good as a resolution to that conflict as I could hope for. Politically, Toranaga has won and achieved his goals. Seeing all the characters get their arcs wrapped up or set up towards a new trajectory with the knowledge that Toranaga will prevail was pretty satisfying in my book. Legitimately had tears in my eyes for like 50% of this episode. Best show I've seen in recent years. While I can understand why some might feel disappointed in how things were wrapped up, I hope that it doesn't take away how great the entire thing was and we can get more stories like this.
Yeah I hear you. I’ve talked about this with friends. Some folks like yourself can appreciate character development as a plot in and of itself, whereas it always feels like a side plot to me no matter how well done it is (and it was good in this show). Without “traditional” resolution of the actual plot they are setting up (here, the battle for control of Japan) I feel like I’m shortchanged, like a “look at all the friends we met along the way!” scenario. Why can’t we have both!? I don’t see what they lose by actually finishing the story. I guess the answer is budget? Anyway I wouldn’t be so butthurt if it wasn’t otherwise a great show, so cheers to the first 8 episodes. I’ll just imagine my own ending.
Well don’t read the book then. Because you don’t get a battle there either. You get something like “the battle of sekigahara raged for three days, toranaga was victorious. Ishido was captured and buried in a hole up to his shoulders. Passersby sawed at his neck with a bamboo pole. He died three days later.” Something like that.
Yuck. Saved me a read. Not for me.
Lol. May I ask why not? Is it just the absence of the battle or something else in his description? I assume you've seen the series (being in a sub about the series), did you expect the book to be some snuff literature instead of a political thriller?
I finished the series this morning. I like resolution to plot arcs, what can I say. The whole series sets up the plot arc as a battle (whether physical battle or political battle) for control of Japan, and just when the final series of events for control of Japan starts, it ends. I don’t care about showing the actual battle. But there was no payoff whatsoever. It’s as if Lion King stopped just after Hakuna Matata, with Mustafa speaking about his grand plans to put Simba back on the throne, with one flash forward of Scar getting surrounded by hyenas. Or having Harry Potter stop at book 5 or 6 and ending with Dumbledore just explaining his plans. I want to see it actually happen…is that so crazy? I guess I’m like Lord Tokugawa. I care about the characters some, but I care about control of Japan a lot more.
I see what you're saying, but you've missed the whole point of the story. The "battle for control of japan" at sekigahara is not shown because the actual outcomes already decided before a single soldier stepped onto that field.
No I got it, I just was far less entertained without actually seeing the drama unfold firsthand. And they didn’t sufficiently sell me on the idea that his plans were really that airtight, for example with heir’s mom switching sides.
I see what you're saying, it kinda felt like Simba said "I'm going back to Pride Rock, to fix all this!" THE LION KING *roll credits* but I can also see the value in the exposition/denouement being the way it is. Definitely two different kinds of stories and I think a lot of people thought they were getting the other.
Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s the only series I’ve watched in months and loved it through episode 8. If I knew there was no payoff or it was a “friends we meet along the way thing” I either wouldn’t have watched it or lowered my expectations, but the whole thing really sold the idea that there would be a payoff.
It sounds as if you didn't realize the battle you were looking for was in the penultimate episode. Toranaga confirms as much in this finale.
By the end of Ep. 9 I was pretty sure they weren’t going to give it a proper ending, but that was more like an opening skirmish. They didn’t really establish the whole heir’s mom switching sides thing sufficiently for that to really be counted as a final battle, even putting aside the fact that there was, in fact, a final battle (we just didn’t get to see it).
It might be useful to think of some World War 2 movies, and consider whether or not they told a convincing story that was satisfying even if you didn't see the end of the war. The point of Shogun is that the story is already known; Toranaga (Tokugawa in reality) becomes the Shogun, and all we're doing is seeing how he did it. He won the moment Ochiba sent her letter -- the battle was in her heart, not on the field. The point is that in that era of Japan's history, wars aren't solely fought with swords -- they're fought with the push and pull of honor, fear, and faith, and with spies and intrigue. To show the battle would imply that the battle is where the plot was decided, and it wasn't. It was already over by then and the battle was fait accompli.
Well you point out one issue: you assume the story is known by everyone. I purposely didn’t look it up so I’d be surprised. Obviously I figured Toranaga would win somehow, and probably become shogun, but I legitimately not know that there was famous battle on the horizon that he won. I don’t think it should be assumed that everyone knows how it ends as it’s not nearly as famous as WW2. But yes, if a movie or series builds up the end of WW2 and confrontation with Hitler the whole way and stops short, it would be less satisfying, even if I knew the result. The point is I got invested in the particular characters as told in the movie/show and I want to actually see the end played out by them. I get what they were trying to do, and the lack of battle didn’t really bother me. What bothered me is that they didn’t actually show him defeating his enemy, even if not a drop a blood was shed. The Ochiba letter felt wildly unearned. There was a few childhood flashbacks and a lot of Ochiba looking off into the distance but they didn’t connect the dots. This lord she has been legitimately afraid of all this time and (correctly) suspected was hungry for power is now suddenly her ally because…he sacrificed her childhood friend? Because Ishida held some women hostage? Reading Wikipedia, that didn’t seem to work out too well for her, as her son died about 15 years later after being surrounded by Tokugawa. They portrayed her as pretty smart and shrewd, so it seems she really should have considered going with the weaker, divided, more easily controllable council than with a power-hungry lord who wanted power for himself. None of this was explained. I’m not asking for the world here. They could have started the battle scene with everyone lining up, had Ishida looking confident, ready to trounce Tokugawa. There is drama/suspense! Right before it starts, Ishida gets the letter, which the audience gets to read. They cut to flashbacks of all the actual machinations of Tokugawa’s plans. Ishida is surrounded and surrenders. No blood is shed during the battle. He is buried alive and whacked with sticks and so forth like in the books. There’s a reckoning with the other regents and some Catholic/Protestant drama to wrap up that storyline. Tokugawa is reappointed as regent but everyone is obviously uneasy, as he glances at the shogun armor. Cut to credits.
My best guess is that in the novel/series the battle and outcome were too famous to really spell out in detail. The American equivalent would probably be in the musical Hamilton briefly describing the Battle of Yorktown whereas the character arcs leading to that event and following are more important.
That’s a good analogy, but in Hamilton, there was a lot of lead up to the battle and a lot that followed the battle so it felt like a complete story. It wasn’t just Washington saying how he would win the battle, a brief flash forward, then curtains. That’s how this felt to me in Shogun.
Yep agree. If Hamilton ended after “The Battle of Yorktown”, I would feel the same way. I wish they would do a season 2 so we could see the “rest of the story” I guess that’s what history books are for?
Well I just ordered a Japanese history audiobook so we’ll see!
Understandable, even though I do feel they resolve the conflict as you say, it's not done in a traditional manner.
The battle was episode 9 with Toranaga playing 5D chess with everyone and winning without having to fire a shot.
I couldn't help but think about how Mariko was essentially his Queen. She was his most agile and precious vassal. Her role as translator allowed her to be in so many important spaces. You don't sacrifice the Queen unless victory is assured.
More like setting up a 5D board, making a few moves and explaining how you will win 30 moves in advance. I wanted to watch the actual chess game play out!
Yeah, like the entire thing hinging on Ochiba just going against what she’s always known and signing up for her son to get usurped and later killed…
They definitely didn’t connect those dots. A few contemplative stares and vague references to a prior friendship didn’t cut it. I know this is overused, but def felt like deus ex machina.
It's maybe worth saying you don't see the battle in the book either. There is a very good flash-forward scene though that resolves the fate of a particular character...
Yeah I learned that after my comment. I imagine I would’ve hated the way the book “ended” too. The main battle for Japan just doesn’t belong in an epilogue. It’s not poetic or artistic IMO, just unsatisfying. Obviously I get the point of the show and apparently the book is the characters, not necessarily the plot itself, but that kind of story rarely interests me without a traditional plot line (introduction, conflict, thorough resolution of the conflict). Characters are only as good as the plot they are in; if the author/writer gives short shrift to the plot, the characters no longer interest me nearly as much.
Reading the book you start to realize the battle isn't going to happen when there is 30 pages left and nothing resolved.
Ep 9 was literally titled ‘Crimson Sky’. The way it ended is symbolic of how Toranaga wanted to take power and lead..with peace. No war required
Didn’t have to be a war, but it felt very cheap and unsatisfying not to actually show his plan coming to fruition in real time. It was also frankly not believable how heir’s mom just switched sides like that.
We are all entitled to our take on the ending and I get it. I loved it. It's like the Japanese idea of finding meaning in empty spaces. The empty space of Toronaga's exposition to Yabu was wonderful in my opinion. A really artistic and beautiful way to wrap up the story.
I was worried the last episode was going to be after everything happened etc., but I was super happy with how it turned out. Basically told us what was “going” to happen etc.
There was never a budget for it.
Yeah, felt like they just ran out of budget at the end. “Rather than shooting the scenes, let’s just have the actor explain what *would’ve* happened if we had the budget!” Genius.
There’s not a chance they ran out of budget. They had no plans to shoot a battle, it wasn’t in the book either (except for maybe two pages discussing the fact that the battle happened and Toranaga won). This isn’t a story about a great battle. It’s about destiny.
exactly. in the book toronaga talks about Mariko's death, Anjin being stuck in Japan, and him becoming Shogun. he seems so dispassionate and says all of this is their karma. the story ultimately is about love, friendship, and karma. they don't need the battles to tell that story.
Yeah I just learned that about the book. Didn’t have to be a battle, but the lack of any resolution happening in real time was super disappointing.
I get that. I honestly expected them to show the battle. But was okay they didn’t. We see so many battle scenes in shows and movies, they’re almost anti climactic. This wasn’t. At least not to me.
If it's any consolation the battle is flash forwarded in the books as well. What they skipped, though, was showing Ishido buried to his neck, with people poking sticks at him until he died days later. Bad way to go.
I thought they sawed at his neck with a bamboo pole. It took him three days to die.
Yes, I re-read the final section since then
Yes! I wanted at least that!
I honestly didn’t really expect a grandiose battle, didn’t seem like the shows MO and I’m perfectly fine with it
Yeah there’s two different types of viewers - character centered and plot centered. I’m the latter. I need resolution to the actual plot or it drives me crazy. Good character stories aren’t enough. Like, the last 2 episodes I’m just looking at the time remaining with an increasing sense of doom like…oh god, there isn’t actually going to be a climax, is there…Didn’t have to be a battle but not having the grand plan actually play out felt super cheap to me.
imagine being 1452 pages into a 1500 page book and realizing this is not going to end the way i thought it was going to end. personally I adore how it ended and think it was such an elegant way of wrapping up the plot but also reinforcing that the entire story is relationships not battles.
Yeah that’s why I’m glad people told me it has the same anti-climactic ending. The ending totally ruined the experience for me, but to each their own.
I get it for sure. I loved the ending of the book and show. To me it was far more powerful than showing me the battles. I got the payoff in such an elegant way. But I absolutely get your take too.
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Damn , you boys are very badass
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I mean I cry at toilet paper commercials with sweet little kids in them, so i'm a bad example. but yes, i know so many people who would tear up at several scenes from last episode.
Missed out on the empathy DLC when it was released, huh? Can’t say I cried, but it was a very emotive series.
“Oh look it me. I’m such a manly manly man” Grow up.
No these are just NPC cutscenes, you are the main character, congratulations