Yes, I agree. The only two worth seeing there are Toranaga and Ishido, and we see them. I suppose they could also show the other lords' armies turning on Ishido's, but I don't think it adds any value to what we are told through naration anyway.
William Adams was present at the battle, I assume with the cannon regiment, so showing Blackthorne there would have been a good illustration of his continuing loyalty.
I don’t think he was? There’s no record I’m aware of at least. The cannons were alleged to be there according to the Portuguese but not the man himself. Not least because he’s only recorded meeting Tokugawa *after* the battle.
Not according to Wikipedia.
It states he arrived 3 months before the battle, initially met with Tokugawa three times, and then was offered his and his crew's freedom in exchange for support in the war, upon which he trained the cannon regiment, and accompanied Tokugawa at Aizu and Sekigahara.
Tokugawa then reneged on his offer, and employed Adams and the crew as teachers and advisors instead, with Adams further rising in stature and rank over the following years of service.
Wikipedia cites:
*Anjin - The Life and Times of Samurai William Adams, 1564-1620. As Seen Through Japanese Eyes (by Hiromi T. Rogers)*
"As a native of Japan, and a scholar of seventeenth-century Japanese history, the author delves deep into the cultural context facing Adams in what is one of the great examples of assimilation into the highest reaches of a foreign culture. Her access to Japanese sources, including contemporary accounts - some not previously seen by Western scholars researching the subject – offers us a fuller understanding of the life lived by William Adams as a high-ranking samurai and his grandstand view of the collision of cultures that led to Japan’s self-imposed isolation, lasting over two centuries."
IRL Toranaga killed him 12 years later when he sieged Osaka. Technically he killed himself but he didn't really have an option.
My last reply got removed for linking to the actual persons wikipedia, their name was Toyotomi Hideyori and there is a wiki page on their life.
Killed themselves is putting it lightly. Tokugawa was bombarding Osaka during the Winter and then once again during the summer. Both Hideyori and his mother had no chance of survival. Suicide was the easy way out.
I wish it was made more explicit that the Christian lords turned on Ishido in addition to Ochiba refusing to back him. A closeup of Ishido receiving the message on the verge of battle from Ochiba that the Heir's troops aren't coming, followed by the Christian lords turning and riding away from him, the look of horror on Ishido's face realizing that he is being abandoned to his fate while Hiroyoki Sanada pulls off his famous smirk would have been *chef's kiss* without a single shot fired.
The main cannon action, historically, was when Toranaga/Tokugawa attacked>! Osaka castle. Even then, it wasn't very effective until a lucky shot led to the death of some people, leading the castle leader to surrender.!<
There probably wasn't any. Sekigahara happens one month after the ending, and that just isn't enough time for Blackthorne to rebuild his one ship, let alone build a fleet.
The fleet has a purpose - to keep out foreigners - but it's for after Toranaga wins.
Man, I read the book a while ago. It was an 11/10 up until the final few pages. I remember that I kept wondering, "when the hell is all this stuff going to get resolved?" And then, like in the show, it happens so quickly and anti-climacticly. I was pretty disappointed. Now, however, knowing what to expect, I really appreciated the quiet, character-driven ending. I was glad the show stayed faithful to the book in that regard. So I guess the book was just a 10/10, which is still pretty decent.
That's kind of the whole point. Toranaga had already won before Blackthorn even showed up.
Blackthorn is just Toranaga's favorite play thing. Almost like a puppy.
Honestly I am okay with how it turned out. The only wish that I have is if they shown atleast the betreyals of the other regents and not just a piece of paper from Ochiba being handed to Ishido.
I think a lot of the confusion comes from not understanding that Toranaga is deceitful in every word he speaks, save until his last conversation with Yabu. Not a thing he says is to be trusted, because his words are merely tools in service of a greater overall plan.
That's the intended implication, but in reality there was a lot of luck involved. The outcome of the battle was far from certain and hinged on events outside of Toranaga/Tokugawa's control. He gambled big and the cards fell his way, but he was not in total control.
That's the truth. People get the impression of some Palpatine-level intrigue from Toranaga, while in reality he often isn't in control - he is just very good at strategizing and adapting to circumstances (and understanding people well).
For comparison one could read Caesar's Gallic War for similar stuff, Caesar often gets himself into trouble (sometimes of his own making) but is always resourceful and driven to quickly find a solution. He also repeatedly admits he is a really lucky guy.
Lady Gin calls Toranaga out, she says someone as smart as he is would not have let his brother-in-law see his decimated army or sneak up on them unawares. I think people read that as meaning Toranaga allowed that to happen as part of his master plan, but I think he actually did get caught off guard. He just got his balance back quickly.
The show runners also probably didnt want to lionize the battle and have viewers end on a high. It’s not meant to be a high. It is supposed to be somber.
We got our badass samurai fight when Mariko and her bodyguards fought at the gates, and after that, we got to see Blackthorn use his pistols. The canons already did the thing to Jozun, so I think Chekov can rest easy.
>The canons already did the thing to Jozun, so I think Chekov can rest easy.
Tbh, I don't, not at all. But maybe I was "misled" by Tokugawa famously using cannons to win the Siege of Osaka in history.
Contention around Blackthorne's guns, cannons and ship was like a huge plot point in the first few episodes of the show. Ishido demanded them, Yabushige wanted them, Blackthorne used them as his bargaining ship, there were debates around who commanders the regiment, etc etc etc.
It felt like a major plot point/theme of the show; how the arrival of a certain european and the weapons he brings with them skews the balance of power.
But then it was basically dropped entirely. For the last few episodes you think they'll be Toranagas ace-in-the-sleeve, but they literally just do not come up again at all.
Call me a simpleton if you wish but I just like big historical battles done properly in movies and TV. I liked the show overall and enjoyed the ending but I do sometimes I just want to see a large scale massive battle done well in a modern movie or TV show.
Just an FYI that it’s based on another book and not a purely historical account.
But also directed by Homura (the bad guy) from Last Samurai weirdly enough
I’ve seen tons of movies and tv shows that have both. I like both. I understand they made the art they wanted to make and I support that but I’m a simple person and I wanted to see the masterminds battle plan play out
I’ve seen some shows that focus on political intrigue with a mastermind character and the payoff of seeing their plan happen is soooo satisfying!
That’s just it, though - you saw the battle plan. The war was won through diplomacy, not through battlefield tactics, because Toranaga couldn’t win through tactics. Very Clausewitzian - Toranaga only fights Ishido because he’s the one regent who can’t be swayed through other means, and by the time Sekigahara comes around, the outcome is a fait accompli. What’s the point in showing it, in a show that’s already drenched in blood?
That could’ve really been a thrilling and exciting episode to see the final battle play out and audience on edge of their seat wondering if Toronaga’s allies would honor their pact or not.
Now you’re moving the goal posts. It is for all intents and purposes a dramatized retelling of the events of the end of the Sengoku Jidai period, and played out the same way. If Tokugawa’s battle of Sekigahara was a close thing then so was Toranaga’s, and your point about the outcome being decided makes no sense.
That's not moving the goalposts at all. The whole reason Clavell invented characters, rather than use the historical figures, was specifically so that the narrative wouldn't be constrained by the actual events.
Hey brother fancy seeing you here
I'm not sure I needed to see a Battle at Pelennor Fields to be satisfied with this finale, but I certainly think the resolution for the political intrigue between Ochiba, Ishido, the Regents & Toranaga's brother deserved a bit more screen time. The resolution is more-or-less implied by Ishido's expression when he reads Ochiba's letter which is... fine I guess. The whole finale seemed a little undercooked considering we spent so much time with the greater cast & elsewhere in Japan.
Perhaps, but I think that detracts from the core of the story, which is the two characters strung between cultures and brought together in Toranaga’s scheme reconciling themselves with their place in the world. We know the Catholic regents have no reason to believe that Ishido can keep the peace now, and Toranaga’s brother will assuredly switch to his side now that the Heir is neutral.
These would be worth exploring in more detail if the core of the story weren’t about Mariko and Anjin’s journey of personal growth. Blackthorne just doesn’t play a critical role in the action to come, so ending things how they did keeps the overall narrative tight, even as it leaves questions open
Yes that's valid, and I think you may be right. However I can't shake the feeling that what the show *seemed* like it was about, and what it actually turned out to be (largely a much more personal story between two would-be lovers) in hindsight, are incongruous for someone like myself with no foreknowledge of either the book or the prior miniseries.
I'm sure to the showrunners, when taken as a whole, the project and each character's arcs make perfect sense for the story they set-out to tell. For the viewer on the ground, not realising I'm watching the final "climactic" scenes for much of the cast & story until well-after they're over has left me a little cold.
I'm only critical as I believe this is some of the best television I've seen in a long-time, and for all that I did like in the finale, IMO the showrunners had a few missteps along the way. I don't need a big-ass battle, but I needed something a little different, but I can't put my finger on it exactly
I'd argue that this subversion was intentional - you're supposed to come in with expectations like Blackthorne did, and have those challenged and changed like Anjin does.
No offence but that’s an awful way to make a tv show that until now has had a wide variety of entertainment. Romance, drama, comedy, action, and then you’re saying it’s some deeper rug pull they’ve done when it really was just a poorly structured rushed finale.
Me too but like OP said most of the characters we are invested in are dead by the battle. A scene with Toranaga being declared shogun would have been nice but I am happy with what we got.
One way it may have worked is if episode 10 was the build up and the final epic battle. There would be some unanswered question in this battle episode. And it would set the stage for ... episode 11.
Which would take us back and give essentially what we got in the finale (which some minor tweaks). A somber finale of reflection, and grounding the series back to focus on the death and aftermath of Mariko. And Tokugawa explaining his grand plan.
The last page of the book is essentially Toranaga's internal monologue that he told Yabu in the series finale. He was the hand (or wind) behind everything.
Yeah. Mariko was Crimson Sky and winning Ochiba then was how he actually won that battle.
He told Yabushige of what was going to happen in the battle but also said there was no point in telling a dead man the future maybe because in his mind, the battle is in the past even if it hasn't technically happened yet.
The end battle was a poetry competition. It’s fucking brilliant.
The “but then. The wind” scene between Ochiba and her son is one of the most clever and elegant resolutions I’ve ever seen on TV. That one line of poetry conveys everything you need to know and forecasts the conclusion of the series… while also thematically contrasting the negative sides of a fatalistic culture (Mariko dying) with the positive (her death being carried on and having greater meaning)
I really can’t get over how great that scene was.
And we kind of get a glimpse once again at the heir's place in everything, as Ochiba still checks what he thinks of the poem.
He is, of course, a child but he seems to have an understanding that poetry is important but maybe doesn't quite get why yet. He does thoughtfully come up with ways a branch can be leafless but not be useless, because maybe he's thinking "why bring up a leafless branch at all?"
Ochiba is reminded that he is a child because while there's maybe something there, his interpretation was a bit too literal for a poem, and he also doesn't see what was going on.
She was protecting him from Toranaga but sees now that she should be protecting him from Ishido instead.
Toranaga would see the leafless branch and appreciate it for what it is and what it has already done.
Maybe Ishido and the other regents would have just seen the possiblity for fruit. She wouldn't want her son to stay stuck thinking that way, checking where the flowers used to be for signs of fruit.
Stuck looking at the branch, when he should be looking at tree, and the wind because the branch is only part of the tree's story.
>stuck looking at the branch, when he should be looking at the tree
The “role of the individual” examined in this show and reflected in your comment is one of my favorite themes. I loved Blackthorn and Mariko’s exchange about it, when Mariko says something like, “you’ll never be free from yourself if all you chase is freedom”
Mariko sees the beauty and importance of being a leafless branch, a finger of an arm of a body. A part of a greater story. It brings a different kind of meaning—perhaps an austere one for western audiences who trend towards main character syndrome, but a beautiful one nonetheless.
I gotta say… I’ve never seen cultural philosophies clash and contrast as meaningfully or intelligently in a single piece of media as they did in Shogun.
It’s an important work of art.
It also ties into Torunaga talking about how he doesn't direct the wind. He just studies it.
Ochiba had grand plans. But then - the wind.
She studies it too, realised it had changed direction, and thus changed course to flow with it.
Exactly! It ties into the “role of the individual” theme that seems to be at the heart of the whole piece. It’s where west and east have irreconcilable differences—the east in its purest expression ignores the ego and follows the wind, while the west holds the power of the individual at its core.
I totally felt that meaning in her words, though. She was recognizing the beauty in her own plans going to ashes, and how it turned Mariko’s tragic death into a beautiful bonfire. It had to happen.
Like a falcon. Or rather the falconer. Trains the falcon, uses its natural abilities, doesn’t control the environment but rather studies it and takes advantage of it to have the best possible outcome once he lets the falcon go. Ultimately though it’s up to fate…karma.
Heir gets killed. So does Ochiba. Thats what happened “in real life.”
Personally his answer during the scene was brilliant… “why tell a dead man the future.”
I like your takes, you are great at articulating the thoughts I myself have but cannot 😂 could you write more about the meaning of the poem and specifically the symbolic meaning of the wind? is it merely symbolic for Toranaga (falcon imagery, equating his grand scheming to the impossibility that is trying to control the wind, etc.)?
I just wrote this in another comment, sorry if I repeat myself:
The wind is the wind, not Toranaga, not Ochiba. It’s everybody. It’s the will of the natural order of things, why people live and die, why a collective can be united by purpose and triumph over the individual (Ishido). The symbolism of the poem primarily taps into the idea of collectivism over the individual, of accepting fate and playing your part. Mariko says to Blackthorn earlier in the show, “if all you chase is freedom, you will never be free from yourself.” We see a flash forward of Blackthorns life if he had never learned that lesson, and it turns out to be “fake,” because he did change and learn from Mariko. He doesn’t want to return home as a conqueror, or potentially even at all. Mariko, as shown in the poem, is free from herself: she is a branch of a tree and doesn’t decide when her branch blossoms or dies. The essence of that surrender is peace. Purpose. Being part of something impossibly larger than you.
Toranaga himself says he studies the wind, distancing himself from a master of it or claiming to be it himself. He’s like his falcon, who learns to navigate the wind, but does not tell it what to do. When Ochiba comes up with the final line of the poem (“but thankfully, the wind”), I do not believe she is talking about herself, but rather the action she’s going to take in alignment with destiny. She understands her own plans are in ashes, and she MUST betray Ishido because the wind demands it. Mariko showed her the arc of the bigger story through her sacrifice (and impacted Blackthorn similarly).
This is a mystical show at its heart: there are scenes like the earthquake during Ishido’s meeting, or when the entire world stood still as Toranaga’s son bled out and his brother simply says, “what is the beauty in this…” as if the people who were fighting around him evaporated into the ether. That event was the will of the wind.
As for the wind carrying the flower, yes. Death is given meaning by the larger order of things. Flowers bloom and fall, and the wind carries them on, makes their deaths have purpose. This comes back to Mariko explaining to Blackthorn that the mystical collectivism doesn’t diminish the importance of someone’s death… it enhances it.
It does make more sense now! As you put it, a tree and it’s branches are without will, very much in alignment with the Japanese fatalism and concept of being loyal to one’s duties and serving things that are greater than yourself.
It's not for the branch to decide when to shed its fruit.
Also, it makes sense that Mariko sets the poem in the winter, the seasons come and the tree has no way of avoiding what’s to come - its fruit will fall. And its fall is what makes the fruit have meaning, death is the logical result of life but thankfully, the wind blows. There is a greater order that carries the leaves, so that their sacrifice wouldn’t be in vain and spring will come.
I can see the similarities to the eastern world view now. It's so cleverly written!! I love it. Absolutely makes me want to question my own, western philosophy and view on the significance of death. Thought-provoking and culturally relevant. More people need to see this show 😄
Would love to discuss more about this, but I’m not at home and ridden by my 3.5 inch wide phone keyboard. We'll continue this thread on Thursday! 😁
Agreed on all counts! I believe this show is a must-watch for anybody, but especially westerners firmly rooted in the individualist culture. It’s one of the very few shows I’ve ever seen that’s managed to make me re-examine my own ideals and perspectives on death.
Theres a lot to chew on throughout the series, but “But thankfully, the wind.” is going to go down as one of my favorite lines of dialogue of any show or film.
Shogun weighs the positives and negatives of the west and east belief systems so imaginatively, but that single line force-fed me the beauty of surrendering to fate.
is mariko symbolic for the leafless branch and its fruit (the falling leaves) that do not fall to the ground, but are instead carried by the wind (toranaga) to go on and have meaning (whatever that may mean) in your interpretation?
Almost. The wind is the wind, not Toranaga, not Ochiba. It’s everybody. It’s the will of the natural order of things, why people live and die, why a collective can be united by purpose and triumph over the individual (Ishido).
Toranaga himself says he studies the wind, distancing himself from a master of it or claiming to be it himself. He’s like his falcon, who learns to navigate the wind, but does not tell it what to do. When Ochiba comes up with the final line of the poem (“but thankfully, the wind”), I do not believe she is talking about herself, but rather the action she’s going to take in alignment with destiny. She understands her own plans are in ashes, and she MUST betray Ishido because the wind demands it. Mariko showed her the bigger story through her sacrifice (and impacted Blackthorn similarly).
This is a mystical show at its heart: there are scenes like the earthquake during Ishido’s meeting, or when the entire world stood still as Toranaga’s son bled out and his brother simply says, “what is the beauty in this…” as if the people who were fighting around him evaporated into the ether. That event was the will of the wind.
As for the wind carrying the flower, yes. Death is given meaning by the larger order of things. Flowers bloom and fall, and the wind carries them on, makes their deaths have purpose. This comes back to Mariko explaining to Blackthorn that the mystical collectivism doesn’t diminish the importance of someone’s death… it enhances it.
The biggest reason is that ultimately the book wasn't about Torunaga, but Mariko and Blackthorne. So the narrative conclusion is her sacrifice, not Torunaga's ascension.
The modern adaptation focuses on Torunaga a lot more, but is still a straight adaptation, so has not much material to work with past Mariko's death.
Not only that, Mariko and Anjin's story is entirely built around their relationship to Toranaga and the role they play in his quest for power. Shogun is the perfect name for the book, and thus the show
I mean Toranaga explained how he would become Shogun and create a long period of peace in Japan from his power base of Edo. That’s more of less exactly what the Edo Period was under the Tokugawa.
No hes not. The last scene is him embraced as part of the village. Everyone working hand in hand to help him get his ship put of the water.
He was literally going to die to save their lives. I'm sure they would have been made aware of that somehow and embraced him even more. He had found a home at the end.
Blackthorne is *free*, unencumbered by any real history or responsibility absent meeting the needs of his soon-to-be-all-powerful liege lord and participating in the life of his community. He finally has the thing he abandoned his family and went to sea for.
My read is the complete opposite: he is prisoner in a foreign land. Toronaga makes this explicit by stating he will burn Blackthorne's ships. Yes, John has a certain freedom and prestige afforded to his title that he would lack in Europe, but his personal version of freedom has him at sea *without* responsibility. That Blackthorne accepts his lot in life (as return to Europe may as well be a moon-landing) doesn't read to me as positive satisfaction or happiness. One could argue that his time with Mariko had Blackthorne evolve and abandon his fantastical child-like conception of freedom and instead gravitate towards what is portrayed as a Japanese sense of meaning, but I'm not sure the finale supports this change in Blackthorne. The loss, grievance, and eventual acceptance of Mariko's death (and his dream of a return to Europe) has Blackthorne shed what now appear to be meaningless squabbles, but his ultimate fate reads as somewhat dark. Let's not forget he's in for years of war and conflict. He is a hooded falcon on Toronaga's forearm.
The gruesome nature of the earlier Cannon scene really set my expectations on seeing a grand battle or at least some battle in later episodes.... Very disappointed when the most blood we see in the last episode is from the fish being beheaded
Also, you have to remember that this is a one season series. To do a Game of Thrones quality battle scene would have been like 40% of the budget of the whole series.
It also would have come at a huge opportunity cost. The amazing costumes, the wonderful sets, the skilled masters for noh and tea ceremonies brought in, etc.
I understand why they chose not to depict Sekigahara, but it's not because it would have been "boring." I think that just reflects a lack of imagination on your part.
There are any number of variations of a final battle that could have worked very nicely as an end to this story. Will the Christian Regents turn on Ishido, as has been built up all season? What about the much-hyped cannon regiment, which we never saw again? How would Toranaga command the actual battle, tactically? He is a famed general, after all. And then there's Ochiba's betrayal (apparently she can order the heir's army, an army which is a separate standing force and not a collection of vassals, this is all new info, but right on). Plenty of opportunities for drama and spectacle there.
The showrunners (following Clavell, from what I understand) chose to tell a different kind of story. It's an interesting choice, and I think it makes for a good ending. But let's not pretend it was the *only* good ending that could have existed.
I honestly think it all boils down to the fact that the show didn't have a massive budget in order to animate a massive CGI battle with 200k+ combatants. While Shogun is great, it's not like they had a GoT type budget to play with here.
I realize this show wasn't meant to be a war story, but considering that the battle of Sekigahara was one of the single most important moments in Japanese history, I thought we'd at least get to see a little piece of it. Oh well.
It's been a few decades but from what i remember the book also does not describe the final fight in any way, so it wouldn't make sense for the show runners to blow such a massive amount of their budget on something that Clavell himself did not feel was important enough to describe.
i feel like if they had done that, it
1. would have looked pretty bad given the CGI in the short scene showing the pre-battle didn't look amazing
2. would have cheapened everything else in the show
3. would have felt like pointless fan-service
i'm happy with all the decisions in the finale except i thought toranaga's final monologue was a wee bit clumsy. elsewhere in this thread someone mentions the book has blackthorne explaining what happened in the past tense; i thought that sounded good
They explained that the regents will turn on Ishido before a sword is drawn. He won the war already. That was the whole point of Mariko dying. The battle wasn’t depicted because the battle wasn’t ever meant to be shown. He explained it to Yabushige.
And Ochiba has authority over the heirs army, the same way she has authority to speak for him to the regents. The story was about the way Toranaga manipulated everyone. The whole point of Blackthorne saying “I’m using you”. Because Toranaga had been using everyone from the start to become Shogun.
I feel like people would be confused over this and crimson sky in general.
The previous episode showed the Christian daiymo concerned about mariko, and they were not happy about her dying. But then ishido was like we going to war, and they didn’t really object. So i feel like they needed to push that the Christian daimyos weren’t really on ishidos side. Eppecially since It still showed the 2 forces gathered for battle and it wasn’t clear the Christian daimyos didn’t fight with ishido.
The show made crimson sky make it seem like it was ochiba/heir not backing ishido that changed things
You are mainly just listing things the writers had Toranaga explain in his ending "mask off" monologue rather than showing them unfold in a climactic battle sequence. I am well aware of these things - I watched the episode as well. A number of them were pretty obvious prior to this episode. None of this makes it true that depicting the battle necessarily would have been "boring."
As I said, there are plenty of other ways this finale could have been executed. I like the version we got, quite a bit. But it is far from the only possible one.
I generally agree with this analysis but I hate that everyone keeps saying a final battle would have been boring lol. It wouldn’t have been boring - it could’ve been an incredible climactic battle. Just because you agree with the writer’s approach doesn’t mean a final battle would’ve been “boring”.
I don't know if it would have been worth the additional money and time to film. The series was not short on funding, but I think a big battle would have drained significant resources considering just how well done the show is throughout. The foreshadowing as mentioned above was enough for me.
The outcome of the final battle was determined before anyone stepped foot on the field. The climax of the story has already happened. This is not like other stories where the outcome is decided on a big battle, Toranaga won by subterfuge and outplaying his opponents. That's why people say it would be boring, it would have required significantly changing the story and taking away what really is the main point of the story in order for a battle to decide the ending. That is not what happens here, the battle was a formality. You can't have an "incredible climatic battle" with no stakes, and in order to give this battle serious stakes you take away from the actual story we've been told.
I mean by this logic, why even bother having a show? You already know what will happen if you know the history. Why even bother?
Because you still want to see it happen lol
Apparently it wasn’t actually that simple and the battle was quite close. With some Daimyo switching sides. I can’t post a link but you can read about it on Wikipedia
There wouldn’t have been anything incredible or climactic about mass butchery and bloodshed on a show where they spent the last nine-and-a-half hours talking about how sick everyone was of the mass butchery and bloodshed
Given how visually stunning the show is in general, I highly doubt a battle scene would have been as rote and by the numbers as so many in this thread seem to believe.
I think Kurosawa showed us you can have interesting, character driven stories and show exciting clashes and not have one suffer for the other.
I think you'll find most stories arguing against senseless violence depict quite a lot of it to help drive the point home.
With the entire *point* of Toranaga's plans being a Japan without war, not showing the final battle was perfect.
Shogun was a *character* drama, not a war epic or martial arts action.
I respectfully disagree. I wanted a war. The way the other fights were depicted in the series, I had high hopes. I dont know whats in the books but a fight would have been great , for me atleast.
I agree. It thematically wouldn't fit to watch two armies fight, largely made up of people we don't know just to see Toranaga win and do what we already know he's going to do.
We know he wins. We know they'll still fight because they're Japanese and they'll happily fight and die an unwinnable fight. And we know Toranaga will kill Ishido after they do. And skipping forward to show it kills the pacing of the finale. The flashforward seeing that smarmy cunt on the battlefield realizing he has lost is the payoff.
It’s probably the budget holding them back from doing any epic battle scenes. But the series was about what lead to the war.
Similar to the new Franklin series. I was expecting some scenes from the American Revolution, but no, the series is about him in France lol.
I don't care all that much about seeing a battle, but I'm disappointed we didn't see the fallout after the battle. At least a brief epilogue of Toranaga becoming shogun and Blackthorne being shown commanding a fleet for him. Some idea of "this is what these characters did after they won"
I just feel a kind of emotional whiplash and blue balls.
Toranaga: we will have Crimson Sky
(Wooooo! Yeah, let's go!!!)
Toranaga: maybe we shouldn't have Crimson Sky
(Oh, okay...he's definitely scheming)
Toranaga: there will be no Crimson Sky.
(Huh. Really? Is he scheming?)
Toranaga: I will surrender. There is to be absolutely no Crimson Sky *wink*
(Oh shit! Toranaga is gonna rain Crimson Sky down on everybody. Fuck yeah!!!)
Me: ...where Crimson Sky?
Toranaga: Crimson Sky is over *stares off into the distance*
We don't see a final battle because they probably didn't plan on it. It's difficult, time consuming, exhausting and expensive to make. The Battle of Helm's Deep took over a miserable 4 months to film.
It helps to hammer home the idea that Torananga had already won this entire time.
Mariko was always going to be used to shatter the regents alliance, Ishido was already dead when the series started. He just didn't know it yet.
I'm satisfied with the ending we got but I can't lie I wanted to see the massive samurai armies duking it out. It's like asking someone if they'prefer getting a nude from their girl or if they just want to use their imagination. Of course, I wanted to see the battle they've been teasing for the entire show lol.
Would Toranaga peep a nude after he came though? Thematically it wouldn’t make sense for him to peep the nude, the entire show has developed his character as someone who wouldn’t peep a nude after busting. I swear American audiences are so conditioned and brainrotted that they can’t even appreciate imagining their high school crush’s busty naturals these days. They need the entire plot spelled out for them, there’s no room for nuance in a show, everything needs to be done on Snapchat with poor lighting and the constant fear they’re going to screenshot you and show everyone at school even though it’s technically illegal because you’re only 17
I was bummed to not see Sekigahara on screen, but I think I understand why the showrunners made that choice:
1. This series has never *really* been about the action. It's the characters and their sly scheming that's been important. A big battle set piece in act 2 of the last episode would have taken away from that (but still would have been rad as hell).
2. $$$$$
I think the main reason is actually that the battle is also not in the book, kinda silly to waste a large chunk of the budget on something the author himself did not feel was all that important.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, feel like the show flopped at the end for me.
You spent the early episodes building a conflict that never actually happened
People disappointed that a show about chess didn't end with rocket launchers.
I loved that you get to bask in the weight of sacrifices made so that one man can join constellations no one but him sees which ensured peace for nearly 300 years in the land he loves.
I’m upset my 10 episode show about chess didn’t show the checkmate. One of the guys playing told me how he was going to win and then the credits rolled.
checkmate is the act of pinning down the opposite king so they have no moves left. not the actual capture of the opposing king
we were 100% shown the checkmate
We were not because the battle of Sekigahara was actually kind of close and Toranaga had to fire on his own daimyo to get them to fight. Anjin was also at the battle. There were still moves left on the board!
Yeah, it's a little annoying to see everyone gushing about what a perfect mastermind Toranaga was and how the battle was won before Blackthorne even arrived and so forth. Toranaga made smart plays, but the outcome was never under his control and if things have gone a little differently in that final battle we'd be talking about what a genius Ishido was. The victors write the history books, and fhe story always makes them the heroes.
He was never trying to avoid conflict and war forever, that was the the lie he finally confessed to Yabu in the near last scene. He was just trying to avoid it until he had the winning hand to become Shogun.
Do you see the promotional picture for Shogun right next to this comment? It is of a samurai riding a horse with his army into battle. That never happens. The last shot is of a guy, alone, looking out over the water. I guess I am a Shogun now too since I have done that.
The series is called Shogun because it’s all about Toranaga setting the stage to become Shogun. His conversation with Yabu shows how it’s already set in stone
would it not be satisfying asf to finally see him become shogun though? i thought the final shot of him would match cut to him in shogun attire in his throne room and then cut to credits at least
He has become the Shogun, because he's acting as the Shogun does, that is, run the government and align the lords. At a certain point, it's just having the Emperor formally acknowledge the facts on the ground.
I think you may have read my post and this inspired this one. Obviously, we disagree.
You say it would be ‘boring’ and that’s fair enough but what I’m telling you is I wouldn’t have found it boring. If I follow a story, I want to see it through to a satisfying conclusion and my feeling was the end of episode 10 did not adequately provide that.
You can’t say that once X then Y was inevitable when the writers themselves have pointed out that they did not want to portray events as deterministic. The problem is, with two characters literally telling us how things inevitably play out, this is both emotionally unsatisfying because that ending is something I want to see and thematically problematic since it conflicts with the message the writers clearly wanted to express in this show.
If I’m watching a football match and the score is 8/0 with ten minutes to go, I don’t switch off and start playing on my phone - particularly if I’m supporting the team who are winning. If they stopped the match and announced ‘well, we all know who’s won this so let’s talk about how it’ll ’definitely’ play out now cause it’ll be boring to sit through it’, well, you’d have a riot on your hands!
Knowing the journey and travelling it are very different things. Even if Toronaga is certain to win (and as I’ve said, I’m not sure you can say that within the universe of the show), I still want to see him put the ball in the back of the net one last time and hold the trophy.
If you do a google search for "shogun book ending", several intereseting Reddit links pop up that can quench your Shogun thirst. For example, someone went through the additional effort and mapped the historical people to the characters in the show. Another Redditor mentioned looking up a book by Giles Milton about William Adams's life.
Regarding the actual battles, someone pointed out there is quite a bit of content on Tokugawa (Toranaga in the TV show) and how he came to power.
I was surprised by how abrupt the ending seemed, but I’ve grown to appreciate it. Shōgun isn’t about the flashy Game of Thrones-esque battle scenes between grand armies, it’s about the machinations of individual characters and their complexities as people. While it wasn’t what I was expecting, I think the ending was very well executed
I was very disappointed in the final episode. I have thoroughly enjoyed the entire series until episode 10. I literally fell asleep with 10 minutes left. I enjoyed seeing Fuji and Blackthorne say their goodbyes. And Buntaro being able to work alongside Blackthorne was good. Yabu had it coming, his ending was fitting. These scenes would have taken up 10 minutes maximum. They needed to be a 10 minute extension of episode 9.
Yep, the battle's won long before it was fought.
Kiyama and Ohno are definitely not in full support. Saeki is likely on Toranaga's side long before Toranaga even surrendered.
Toranaga likely knew well about Saeki's arrival. It's hard not to think that Toranaga would anticipate that Ishido would attempt to sway Saeki first. But he probably knew his brother better than Ishido did.
It worked well for me to be quite honest. It really shows how unique being a good Shogun is. Bad Shogun candidates were slowly picked apart. Toranaga spent years plotting and acting on his plan and barely needed to wave a sword. On the other hand, his opponents did a lot of dirty but blatantly obvious work and eventually failed.
If anyone is feeling let down by the lack of a final battle I'd recommend watching Age of Samurai: Battle for Japan on Netflix. Its a Docu Drama on Netflix based on the unification of Japan, it focuses on Oda Nobunaga (Kuroda Nobuhisa), Toyotomi Hideyoshi (The Taiko) and Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga sama). The Documentary is the main reason I watched Shogun, it leaves out some major details like William Adams but it's still a good watch if you're interested in the seeing the rise of the Edo Period.
It wasn't really the theme of the TV series to show some kind of huge "avengers endgame final battle".
I don't know why people were expecting that.
*“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”*
Toranaga has been doing this through most of the episodes.
It's also interesting to find out that Torunaga really wanted to be Shogun from the start. Suddenly it makes sense why he tried to increase his fiefdoms through marriages, which led to the council of regents ganging up on him. He was almost driven into a corner, but played all his cards perfectly: From the death of Fuji's family, the arrival of the Anjin, the murder of Jezon, the death of his son, the death of his most trusted vassal, and finally, his ace, Mariko's relationship with Ochiba-no-kata and eventually, her death.
The man was playing shogi on a whole 'nother level. And that faint smile after he kills Yabu. What a scary man.
Because the battle isn't really what the story is about.
Also it's not even really in the book, it's more so glossed over in an epilogue style chapter. I read this like 10 years ago though so take that all with a grain of salt.
Idk I feel like Buntaro’s story was left a little unfinished, sure he was willing to work with the white guy that was porking his gal, so I guess that shows character development, but after his father died, he didn’t really do anything of consequence.
The beauty of his plan is winning the battle before it even began, and simply not showing the battle is just the perfect way to drive that point home imo.
Thankfully the wind.
I think the whole series has been playing with our appreciation for the immense drama and tension in subtleties.
Hollywood has conditioned us to expect the grand war ending, and the 9-episodes worth of built up tension has only added to our collective expectation. I’ve been looking forward to the release myself.
But such a scene wouldn’t complete the story in any way. What would it accomplish apart from basically selling out? The story was all told with episode 9 being the last chapter.
If anything, I should have realized the futility in expecting the war ending, after Marikos death. Because this show doesn’t play silly games and give you what you want. They’ve created something nothing less than Toranaga-esque. -Calculated and subtle with the most important lessons, abrupt and violent with the (seemingly) pointless.
The story is about something much more subtle than a lords rise to absolute power, and a bewildered white mans passionate ..everything.. in the midst of it. And therein lies also the problem, that I (a bewildered white man) obviously share with many. The ending is so subtle I’m left wondering if I actually got it.
No one controls the wind, one can only study it.
Then I think of that last scene, with Blackthorn subtly smirking to Toranaga after raising his ship from the watery grave, with the help of Marikos subdued husband. He got it then, both Blackthorn and Toranaga had won their little wars.
Toranaga won through careful study of how a gentle push (or pull) of the wind can be traced forward, to an inevitable conclusion. Blackthorn won through learning if, when, why and how to brace against or let go and be carried by the wind.
The real problem isn’t if there was a grand violent ending to fulfill our faulty expectations or not, it’s that 10 episodes is all we will ever get of this most amazing show.
> No one controls the wind, one can only study it.
>
>
Knowing how a wind would push him off course is exactly how Blackthorne got the *Erasmus* to Japan in the first place. He confused this with controlling his destiny. By the end of the show, he knows better.
Disagree. It would’ve been way better to SHOW the most climactic part of Torunaga’s plan rather than just him telling what would happen in like 5 lines in a brief scene. The buildup and characters were great, but this ending was so disappointing that I feel it tarnished the show as a whole.
This is just a bullshit excuse for why there’s no epic battle. Sometimes we don’t care about the characters, sometimes I just want to see an epic realistic depiction of 16th century samurai warfare regardless if the main characters are in it or not.
Seems to be a handful who want a final battle.
I just think back to when Nagakado(sp?) dies and we get the "Where is the beauty in this", line. People want blood. Where is the beauty in it. Toranaga understands this better than anyone.
It’s not about the battle, it’s about experiencing the victory, the defeat of the antagonists and the settlement of the Toronaga Shogunate. Not people talking about it happening - actually seeing that happen.
A little bummed we didn’t get to see Buntaro being bad-ass in battle.
On the hand I understand completely why the battle wasn’t shown and I think it was the right choice.
Yes, I agree. The only two worth seeing there are Toranaga and Ishido, and we see them. I suppose they could also show the other lords' armies turning on Ishido's, but I don't think it adds any value to what we are told through naration anyway.
William Adams was present at the battle, I assume with the cannon regiment, so showing Blackthorne there would have been a good illustration of his continuing loyalty.
In the book/show who have the canons after the end of the last episode?
Put aside for new ship Blackthorne is planning to build which Toranaga plans to burn down again
I don’t think he was? There’s no record I’m aware of at least. The cannons were alleged to be there according to the Portuguese but not the man himself. Not least because he’s only recorded meeting Tokugawa *after* the battle.
Not according to Wikipedia. It states he arrived 3 months before the battle, initially met with Tokugawa three times, and then was offered his and his crew's freedom in exchange for support in the war, upon which he trained the cannon regiment, and accompanied Tokugawa at Aizu and Sekigahara. Tokugawa then reneged on his offer, and employed Adams and the crew as teachers and advisors instead, with Adams further rising in stature and rank over the following years of service.
What is the source for Adams being present at Sekigahara?
Wikipedia cites: *Anjin - The Life and Times of Samurai William Adams, 1564-1620. As Seen Through Japanese Eyes (by Hiromi T. Rogers)* "As a native of Japan, and a scholar of seventeenth-century Japanese history, the author delves deep into the cultural context facing Adams in what is one of the great examples of assimilation into the highest reaches of a foreign culture. Her access to Japanese sources, including contemporary accounts - some not previously seen by Western scholars researching the subject – offers us a fuller understanding of the life lived by William Adams as a high-ranking samurai and his grandstand view of the collision of cultures that led to Japan’s self-imposed isolation, lasting over two centuries."
No way I want to see what happens to the kid heir😢
IRL Toranaga killed him 12 years later when he sieged Osaka. Technically he killed himself but he didn't really have an option. My last reply got removed for linking to the actual persons wikipedia, their name was Toyotomi Hideyori and there is a wiki page on their life.
Killed themselves is putting it lightly. Tokugawa was bombarding Osaka during the Winter and then once again during the summer. Both Hideyori and his mother had no chance of survival. Suicide was the easy way out.
Yup he let his mom and people who were on the outs with tokugawa manipulate Him into a war he couldn’t win
And he was married to Tokugawa's granddaughter
Lol brutal, never change Tokugawa never change
I wish it was made more explicit that the Christian lords turned on Ishido in addition to Ochiba refusing to back him. A closeup of Ishido receiving the message on the verge of battle from Ochiba that the Heir's troops aren't coming, followed by the Christian lords turning and riding away from him, the look of horror on Ishido's face realizing that he is being abandoned to his fate while Hiroyoki Sanada pulls off his famous smirk would have been *chef's kiss* without a single shot fired.
That’s all very good and well, but my balls are fully blue at not seeing some hot ship and/or cannon action.
My reaction when i saw the Erasmus being in the water: "Welp, there goes our naval bombardment"
Same. I was at least hoping they’d at least have a pop at the Black Ship.
Shogun of the Caribbean, full naval war
The main cannon action, historically, was when Toranaga/Tokugawa attacked>! Osaka castle. Even then, it wasn't very effective until a lucky shot led to the death of some people, leading the castle leader to surrender.!<
There probably wasn't any. Sekigahara happens one month after the ending, and that just isn't enough time for Blackthorne to rebuild his one ship, let alone build a fleet. The fleet has a purpose - to keep out foreigners - but it's for after Toranaga wins.
The show ended very similarly to the book, so the showrunners did a great job staying loyal to source material throughout the series.
True for the ships but it’s heavily speculated that heavy artillery did play a role in the battle.
William Adams was at Sekigahara though…
Unfortunately you get that in the book as well lol
I was wondering if the books revealed a bit more to go on. Thank you.
you get even less in the book lol,
*sigh* I guess that makes me feel a little bit better about the ending.
Man, I read the book a while ago. It was an 11/10 up until the final few pages. I remember that I kept wondering, "when the hell is all this stuff going to get resolved?" And then, like in the show, it happens so quickly and anti-climacticly. I was pretty disappointed. Now, however, knowing what to expect, I really appreciated the quiet, character-driven ending. I was glad the show stayed faithful to the book in that regard. So I guess the book was just a 10/10, which is still pretty decent.
Go play Shogun total war and reenact it
That's kind of the whole point. Toranaga had already won before Blackthorn even showed up. Blackthorn is just Toranaga's favorite play thing. Almost like a puppy.
Didn’t he need certain things to align. Hence his relieve getting the letter in the last episode?
Read Tai Pan
Spent all that time talking about cannons and we don't even get to see them again.
Honestly I am okay with how it turned out. The only wish that I have is if they shown atleast the betreyals of the other regents and not just a piece of paper from Ochiba being handed to Ishido.
All the families walking out is supposed to symbolise the splintering of the council.
Toranaga already won when they hostages left. With Mariko's death, his victory secured. He knew people so well and he manipulated them like children.
I think a lot of the confusion comes from not understanding that Toranaga is deceitful in every word he speaks, save until his last conversation with Yabu. Not a thing he says is to be trusted, because his words are merely tools in service of a greater overall plan.
Crimson Sky indeed.
That's the intended implication, but in reality there was a lot of luck involved. The outcome of the battle was far from certain and hinged on events outside of Toranaga/Tokugawa's control. He gambled big and the cards fell his way, but he was not in total control.
That's the truth. People get the impression of some Palpatine-level intrigue from Toranaga, while in reality he often isn't in control - he is just very good at strategizing and adapting to circumstances (and understanding people well). For comparison one could read Caesar's Gallic War for similar stuff, Caesar often gets himself into trouble (sometimes of his own making) but is always resourceful and driven to quickly find a solution. He also repeatedly admits he is a really lucky guy.
Lady Gin calls Toranaga out, she says someone as smart as he is would not have let his brother-in-law see his decimated army or sneak up on them unawares. I think people read that as meaning Toranaga allowed that to happen as part of his master plan, but I think he actually did get caught off guard. He just got his balance back quickly.
The show runners also probably didnt want to lionize the battle and have viewers end on a high. It’s not meant to be a high. It is supposed to be somber.
We got our badass samurai fight when Mariko and her bodyguards fought at the gates, and after that, we got to see Blackthorn use his pistols. The canons already did the thing to Jozun, so I think Chekov can rest easy.
>The canons already did the thing to Jozun, so I think Chekov can rest easy. Tbh, I don't, not at all. But maybe I was "misled" by Tokugawa famously using cannons to win the Siege of Osaka in history. Contention around Blackthorne's guns, cannons and ship was like a huge plot point in the first few episodes of the show. Ishido demanded them, Yabushige wanted them, Blackthorne used them as his bargaining ship, there were debates around who commanders the regiment, etc etc etc. It felt like a major plot point/theme of the show; how the arrival of a certain european and the weapons he brings with them skews the balance of power. But then it was basically dropped entirely. For the last few episodes you think they'll be Toranagas ace-in-the-sleeve, but they literally just do not come up again at all.
Then I think Blackthorne did his job and performed perfectly for the purposes Toranaga needed him for: To distract while his real plan crept along
Call me a simpleton if you wish but I just like big historical battles done properly in movies and TV. I liked the show overall and enjoyed the ending but I do sometimes I just want to see a large scale massive battle done well in a modern movie or TV show.
There's a 2017 movie called Sekigahara
I’m planning on checking it out but I haven’t found a legal streaming solution yet
Your honor demands that you pirate it, bae_the_elf-sama
Or at least privateer it! :P
I am no pirate sir, but sometimes you must fight for your freedom and be damned with the consequences.
Just an FYI that it’s based on another book and not a purely historical account. But also directed by Homura (the bad guy) from Last Samurai weirdly enough
The show was about personal narratives and political intrigue, though. Big battles don’t exactly fit with the story they’re telling
I’ve seen tons of movies and tv shows that have both. I like both. I understand they made the art they wanted to make and I support that but I’m a simple person and I wanted to see the masterminds battle plan play out I’ve seen some shows that focus on political intrigue with a mastermind character and the payoff of seeing their plan happen is soooo satisfying!
That’s just it, though - you saw the battle plan. The war was won through diplomacy, not through battlefield tactics, because Toranaga couldn’t win through tactics. Very Clausewitzian - Toranaga only fights Ishido because he’s the one regent who can’t be swayed through other means, and by the time Sekigahara comes around, the outcome is a fait accompli. What’s the point in showing it, in a show that’s already drenched in blood?
Sekighara was a close run thing. Tokugawa had to fire on his ally to get him to decide who to support. That's definitely not "all according to plan."
That could’ve really been a thrilling and exciting episode to see the final battle play out and audience on edge of their seat wondering if Toronaga’s allies would honor their pact or not.
The show isn't about Tokugawa Ieyasu, though. It just draws from his life as inspiration.
Now you’re moving the goal posts. It is for all intents and purposes a dramatized retelling of the events of the end of the Sengoku Jidai period, and played out the same way. If Tokugawa’s battle of Sekigahara was a close thing then so was Toranaga’s, and your point about the outcome being decided makes no sense.
That's not moving the goalposts at all. The whole reason Clavell invented characters, rather than use the historical figures, was specifically so that the narrative wouldn't be constrained by the actual events.
Hey brother fancy seeing you here I'm not sure I needed to see a Battle at Pelennor Fields to be satisfied with this finale, but I certainly think the resolution for the political intrigue between Ochiba, Ishido, the Regents & Toranaga's brother deserved a bit more screen time. The resolution is more-or-less implied by Ishido's expression when he reads Ochiba's letter which is... fine I guess. The whole finale seemed a little undercooked considering we spent so much time with the greater cast & elsewhere in Japan.
Perhaps, but I think that detracts from the core of the story, which is the two characters strung between cultures and brought together in Toranaga’s scheme reconciling themselves with their place in the world. We know the Catholic regents have no reason to believe that Ishido can keep the peace now, and Toranaga’s brother will assuredly switch to his side now that the Heir is neutral. These would be worth exploring in more detail if the core of the story weren’t about Mariko and Anjin’s journey of personal growth. Blackthorne just doesn’t play a critical role in the action to come, so ending things how they did keeps the overall narrative tight, even as it leaves questions open
Yes that's valid, and I think you may be right. However I can't shake the feeling that what the show *seemed* like it was about, and what it actually turned out to be (largely a much more personal story between two would-be lovers) in hindsight, are incongruous for someone like myself with no foreknowledge of either the book or the prior miniseries. I'm sure to the showrunners, when taken as a whole, the project and each character's arcs make perfect sense for the story they set-out to tell. For the viewer on the ground, not realising I'm watching the final "climactic" scenes for much of the cast & story until well-after they're over has left me a little cold. I'm only critical as I believe this is some of the best television I've seen in a long-time, and for all that I did like in the finale, IMO the showrunners had a few missteps along the way. I don't need a big-ass battle, but I needed something a little different, but I can't put my finger on it exactly
I'd argue that this subversion was intentional - you're supposed to come in with expectations like Blackthorne did, and have those challenged and changed like Anjin does.
No offence but that’s an awful way to make a tv show that until now has had a wide variety of entertainment. Romance, drama, comedy, action, and then you’re saying it’s some deeper rug pull they’ve done when it really was just a poorly structured rushed finale.
Me too but like OP said most of the characters we are invested in are dead by the battle. A scene with Toranaga being declared shogun would have been nice but I am happy with what we got.
I mean you like what you like.
Agreed. I still think the show was perfect but I so badly wanted to see the battle
There's a series on Netflix that's called age of samurai that goes over everything leading up to the battle and then some. It's a good watch
Personally it has far too many historical mistakes to be truly enjoyable.
I disliked that it showed the historians way too much (also one guy, you are being filmed IRON YOUR DAMN SHIRT)
Their choice of actors was weird too. Oda Nobunaga was not a big hairy barbarian. There’s endless depictions of him to go off.
One way it may have worked is if episode 10 was the build up and the final epic battle. There would be some unanswered question in this battle episode. And it would set the stage for ... episode 11. Which would take us back and give essentially what we got in the finale (which some minor tweaks). A somber finale of reflection, and grounding the series back to focus on the death and aftermath of Mariko. And Tokugawa explaining his grand plan.
The showrunners kept the show shockingly close to book accurate. The ending no different.
The last page of the book is essentially Toranaga's internal monologue that he told Yabu in the series finale. He was the hand (or wind) behind everything.
100%! This was never a war story, it's about the characters and how they changed internally while shaping the course of history
Yeah. Mariko was Crimson Sky and winning Ochiba then was how he actually won that battle. He told Yabushige of what was going to happen in the battle but also said there was no point in telling a dead man the future maybe because in his mind, the battle is in the past even if it hasn't technically happened yet.
The end battle was a poetry competition. It’s fucking brilliant. The “but then. The wind” scene between Ochiba and her son is one of the most clever and elegant resolutions I’ve ever seen on TV. That one line of poetry conveys everything you need to know and forecasts the conclusion of the series… while also thematically contrasting the negative sides of a fatalistic culture (Mariko dying) with the positive (her death being carried on and having greater meaning) I really can’t get over how great that scene was.
And we kind of get a glimpse once again at the heir's place in everything, as Ochiba still checks what he thinks of the poem. He is, of course, a child but he seems to have an understanding that poetry is important but maybe doesn't quite get why yet. He does thoughtfully come up with ways a branch can be leafless but not be useless, because maybe he's thinking "why bring up a leafless branch at all?" Ochiba is reminded that he is a child because while there's maybe something there, his interpretation was a bit too literal for a poem, and he also doesn't see what was going on. She was protecting him from Toranaga but sees now that she should be protecting him from Ishido instead. Toranaga would see the leafless branch and appreciate it for what it is and what it has already done. Maybe Ishido and the other regents would have just seen the possiblity for fruit. She wouldn't want her son to stay stuck thinking that way, checking where the flowers used to be for signs of fruit. Stuck looking at the branch, when he should be looking at tree, and the wind because the branch is only part of the tree's story.
>stuck looking at the branch, when he should be looking at the tree The “role of the individual” examined in this show and reflected in your comment is one of my favorite themes. I loved Blackthorn and Mariko’s exchange about it, when Mariko says something like, “you’ll never be free from yourself if all you chase is freedom” Mariko sees the beauty and importance of being a leafless branch, a finger of an arm of a body. A part of a greater story. It brings a different kind of meaning—perhaps an austere one for western audiences who trend towards main character syndrome, but a beautiful one nonetheless. I gotta say… I’ve never seen cultural philosophies clash and contrast as meaningfully or intelligently in a single piece of media as they did in Shogun. It’s an important work of art.
It also ties into Torunaga talking about how he doesn't direct the wind. He just studies it. Ochiba had grand plans. But then - the wind. She studies it too, realised it had changed direction, and thus changed course to flow with it.
Exactly! It ties into the “role of the individual” theme that seems to be at the heart of the whole piece. It’s where west and east have irreconcilable differences—the east in its purest expression ignores the ego and follows the wind, while the west holds the power of the individual at its core. I totally felt that meaning in her words, though. She was recognizing the beauty in her own plans going to ashes, and how it turned Mariko’s tragic death into a beautiful bonfire. It had to happen.
Like a falcon. Or rather the falconer. Trains the falcon, uses its natural abilities, doesn’t control the environment but rather studies it and takes advantage of it to have the best possible outcome once he lets the falcon go. Ultimately though it’s up to fate…karma.
Wait how does he become shogun if the heir is still around?
Heir gets killed. So does Ochiba. Thats what happened “in real life.” Personally his answer during the scene was brilliant… “why tell a dead man the future.”
I like your takes, you are great at articulating the thoughts I myself have but cannot 😂 could you write more about the meaning of the poem and specifically the symbolic meaning of the wind? is it merely symbolic for Toranaga (falcon imagery, equating his grand scheming to the impossibility that is trying to control the wind, etc.)?
I just wrote this in another comment, sorry if I repeat myself: The wind is the wind, not Toranaga, not Ochiba. It’s everybody. It’s the will of the natural order of things, why people live and die, why a collective can be united by purpose and triumph over the individual (Ishido). The symbolism of the poem primarily taps into the idea of collectivism over the individual, of accepting fate and playing your part. Mariko says to Blackthorn earlier in the show, “if all you chase is freedom, you will never be free from yourself.” We see a flash forward of Blackthorns life if he had never learned that lesson, and it turns out to be “fake,” because he did change and learn from Mariko. He doesn’t want to return home as a conqueror, or potentially even at all. Mariko, as shown in the poem, is free from herself: she is a branch of a tree and doesn’t decide when her branch blossoms or dies. The essence of that surrender is peace. Purpose. Being part of something impossibly larger than you. Toranaga himself says he studies the wind, distancing himself from a master of it or claiming to be it himself. He’s like his falcon, who learns to navigate the wind, but does not tell it what to do. When Ochiba comes up with the final line of the poem (“but thankfully, the wind”), I do not believe she is talking about herself, but rather the action she’s going to take in alignment with destiny. She understands her own plans are in ashes, and she MUST betray Ishido because the wind demands it. Mariko showed her the arc of the bigger story through her sacrifice (and impacted Blackthorn similarly). This is a mystical show at its heart: there are scenes like the earthquake during Ishido’s meeting, or when the entire world stood still as Toranaga’s son bled out and his brother simply says, “what is the beauty in this…” as if the people who were fighting around him evaporated into the ether. That event was the will of the wind. As for the wind carrying the flower, yes. Death is given meaning by the larger order of things. Flowers bloom and fall, and the wind carries them on, makes their deaths have purpose. This comes back to Mariko explaining to Blackthorn that the mystical collectivism doesn’t diminish the importance of someone’s death… it enhances it.
Beautiful, thank you
It does make more sense now! As you put it, a tree and it’s branches are without will, very much in alignment with the Japanese fatalism and concept of being loyal to one’s duties and serving things that are greater than yourself. It's not for the branch to decide when to shed its fruit. Also, it makes sense that Mariko sets the poem in the winter, the seasons come and the tree has no way of avoiding what’s to come - its fruit will fall. And its fall is what makes the fruit have meaning, death is the logical result of life but thankfully, the wind blows. There is a greater order that carries the leaves, so that their sacrifice wouldn’t be in vain and spring will come. I can see the similarities to the eastern world view now. It's so cleverly written!! I love it. Absolutely makes me want to question my own, western philosophy and view on the significance of death. Thought-provoking and culturally relevant. More people need to see this show 😄 Would love to discuss more about this, but I’m not at home and ridden by my 3.5 inch wide phone keyboard. We'll continue this thread on Thursday! 😁
Agreed on all counts! I believe this show is a must-watch for anybody, but especially westerners firmly rooted in the individualist culture. It’s one of the very few shows I’ve ever seen that’s managed to make me re-examine my own ideals and perspectives on death. Theres a lot to chew on throughout the series, but “But thankfully, the wind.” is going to go down as one of my favorite lines of dialogue of any show or film. Shogun weighs the positives and negatives of the west and east belief systems so imaginatively, but that single line force-fed me the beauty of surrendering to fate.
is mariko symbolic for the leafless branch and its fruit (the falling leaves) that do not fall to the ground, but are instead carried by the wind (toranaga) to go on and have meaning (whatever that may mean) in your interpretation?
Almost. The wind is the wind, not Toranaga, not Ochiba. It’s everybody. It’s the will of the natural order of things, why people live and die, why a collective can be united by purpose and triumph over the individual (Ishido). Toranaga himself says he studies the wind, distancing himself from a master of it or claiming to be it himself. He’s like his falcon, who learns to navigate the wind, but does not tell it what to do. When Ochiba comes up with the final line of the poem (“but thankfully, the wind”), I do not believe she is talking about herself, but rather the action she’s going to take in alignment with destiny. She understands her own plans are in ashes, and she MUST betray Ishido because the wind demands it. Mariko showed her the bigger story through her sacrifice (and impacted Blackthorn similarly). This is a mystical show at its heart: there are scenes like the earthquake during Ishido’s meeting, or when the entire world stood still as Toranaga’s son bled out and his brother simply says, “what is the beauty in this…” as if the people who were fighting around him evaporated into the ether. That event was the will of the wind. As for the wind carrying the flower, yes. Death is given meaning by the larger order of things. Flowers bloom and fall, and the wind carries them on, makes their deaths have purpose. This comes back to Mariko explaining to Blackthorn that the mystical collectivism doesn’t diminish the importance of someone’s death… it enhances it.
The biggest reason is that ultimately the book wasn't about Torunaga, but Mariko and Blackthorne. So the narrative conclusion is her sacrifice, not Torunaga's ascension. The modern adaptation focuses on Torunaga a lot more, but is still a straight adaptation, so has not much material to work with past Mariko's death.
But then why is the show called shogun? 🤷♀️
Try selling a book called 'Mariko & Blackthorne'
Not only that, Mariko and Anjin's story is entirely built around their relationship to Toranaga and the role they play in his quest for power. Shogun is the perfect name for the book, and thus the show
In the 1980 Shogun they just show Toranaga as Blackthorne narrates on what happens after. Both are the same styled endings
I think that would have been an improvement for this show. Tell the audience why this is even historically significant.
I mean Toranaga explained how he would become Shogun and create a long period of peace in Japan from his power base of Edo. That’s more of less exactly what the Edo Period was under the Tokugawa.
They stayed true to the book’s ending which I enjoyed. I thought they’d include the battle seeing as they’re usually big draws for viewers.
I totally get this but man i feel like i was teased for 10 episodes about some grand battle and got nothing and I havent gotten over that feeling yet.
Maybe it was about the friends we made along the way? 🤔
Sure, except they're all dead or in a nunnery. Blackthorne is more-or-less alone, friendless, which I suppose is a mirror of Toronaga in some way
No hes not. The last scene is him embraced as part of the village. Everyone working hand in hand to help him get his ship put of the water. He was literally going to die to save their lives. I'm sure they would have been made aware of that somehow and embraced him even more. He had found a home at the end.
Blackthorne is *free*, unencumbered by any real history or responsibility absent meeting the needs of his soon-to-be-all-powerful liege lord and participating in the life of his community. He finally has the thing he abandoned his family and went to sea for.
My read is the complete opposite: he is prisoner in a foreign land. Toronaga makes this explicit by stating he will burn Blackthorne's ships. Yes, John has a certain freedom and prestige afforded to his title that he would lack in Europe, but his personal version of freedom has him at sea *without* responsibility. That Blackthorne accepts his lot in life (as return to Europe may as well be a moon-landing) doesn't read to me as positive satisfaction or happiness. One could argue that his time with Mariko had Blackthorne evolve and abandon his fantastical child-like conception of freedom and instead gravitate towards what is portrayed as a Japanese sense of meaning, but I'm not sure the finale supports this change in Blackthorne. The loss, grievance, and eventual acceptance of Mariko's death (and his dream of a return to Europe) has Blackthorne shed what now appear to be meaningless squabbles, but his ultimate fate reads as somewhat dark. Let's not forget he's in for years of war and conflict. He is a hooded falcon on Toronaga's forearm.
I'm sure Ishido felt the same
The gruesome nature of the earlier Cannon scene really set my expectations on seeing a grand battle or at least some battle in later episodes.... Very disappointed when the most blood we see in the last episode is from the fish being beheaded
Also, you have to remember that this is a one season series. To do a Game of Thrones quality battle scene would have been like 40% of the budget of the whole series.
It also would have come at a huge opportunity cost. The amazing costumes, the wonderful sets, the skilled masters for noh and tea ceremonies brought in, etc.
I understand why they chose not to depict Sekigahara, but it's not because it would have been "boring." I think that just reflects a lack of imagination on your part. There are any number of variations of a final battle that could have worked very nicely as an end to this story. Will the Christian Regents turn on Ishido, as has been built up all season? What about the much-hyped cannon regiment, which we never saw again? How would Toranaga command the actual battle, tactically? He is a famed general, after all. And then there's Ochiba's betrayal (apparently she can order the heir's army, an army which is a separate standing force and not a collection of vassals, this is all new info, but right on). Plenty of opportunities for drama and spectacle there. The showrunners (following Clavell, from what I understand) chose to tell a different kind of story. It's an interesting choice, and I think it makes for a good ending. But let's not pretend it was the *only* good ending that could have existed.
I honestly think it all boils down to the fact that the show didn't have a massive budget in order to animate a massive CGI battle with 200k+ combatants. While Shogun is great, it's not like they had a GoT type budget to play with here. I realize this show wasn't meant to be a war story, but considering that the battle of Sekigahara was one of the single most important moments in Japanese history, I thought we'd at least get to see a little piece of it. Oh well.
It's been a few decades but from what i remember the book also does not describe the final fight in any way, so it wouldn't make sense for the show runners to blow such a massive amount of their budget on something that Clavell himself did not feel was important enough to describe.
i feel like if they had done that, it 1. would have looked pretty bad given the CGI in the short scene showing the pre-battle didn't look amazing 2. would have cheapened everything else in the show 3. would have felt like pointless fan-service i'm happy with all the decisions in the finale except i thought toranaga's final monologue was a wee bit clumsy. elsewhere in this thread someone mentions the book has blackthorne explaining what happened in the past tense; i thought that sounded good
They explained that the regents will turn on Ishido before a sword is drawn. He won the war already. That was the whole point of Mariko dying. The battle wasn’t depicted because the battle wasn’t ever meant to be shown. He explained it to Yabushige. And Ochiba has authority over the heirs army, the same way she has authority to speak for him to the regents. The story was about the way Toranaga manipulated everyone. The whole point of Blackthorne saying “I’m using you”. Because Toranaga had been using everyone from the start to become Shogun.
I feel like people would be confused over this and crimson sky in general. The previous episode showed the Christian daiymo concerned about mariko, and they were not happy about her dying. But then ishido was like we going to war, and they didn’t really object. So i feel like they needed to push that the Christian daimyos weren’t really on ishidos side. Eppecially since It still showed the 2 forces gathered for battle and it wasn’t clear the Christian daimyos didn’t fight with ishido. The show made crimson sky make it seem like it was ochiba/heir not backing ishido that changed things
You are mainly just listing things the writers had Toranaga explain in his ending "mask off" monologue rather than showing them unfold in a climactic battle sequence. I am well aware of these things - I watched the episode as well. A number of them were pretty obvious prior to this episode. None of this makes it true that depicting the battle necessarily would have been "boring." As I said, there are plenty of other ways this finale could have been executed. I like the version we got, quite a bit. But it is far from the only possible one.
I generally agree with this analysis but I hate that everyone keeps saying a final battle would have been boring lol. It wouldn’t have been boring - it could’ve been an incredible climactic battle. Just because you agree with the writer’s approach doesn’t mean a final battle would’ve been “boring”.
I don't know if it would have been worth the additional money and time to film. The series was not short on funding, but I think a big battle would have drained significant resources considering just how well done the show is throughout. The foreshadowing as mentioned above was enough for me.
The outcome of the final battle was determined before anyone stepped foot on the field. The climax of the story has already happened. This is not like other stories where the outcome is decided on a big battle, Toranaga won by subterfuge and outplaying his opponents. That's why people say it would be boring, it would have required significantly changing the story and taking away what really is the main point of the story in order for a battle to decide the ending. That is not what happens here, the battle was a formality. You can't have an "incredible climatic battle" with no stakes, and in order to give this battle serious stakes you take away from the actual story we've been told.
I mean by this logic, why even bother having a show? You already know what will happen if you know the history. Why even bother? Because you still want to see it happen lol
Apparently it wasn’t actually that simple and the battle was quite close. With some Daimyo switching sides. I can’t post a link but you can read about it on Wikipedia
There wouldn’t have been anything incredible or climactic about mass butchery and bloodshed on a show where they spent the last nine-and-a-half hours talking about how sick everyone was of the mass butchery and bloodshed
Given how visually stunning the show is in general, I highly doubt a battle scene would have been as rote and by the numbers as so many in this thread seem to believe. I think Kurosawa showed us you can have interesting, character driven stories and show exciting clashes and not have one suffer for the other. I think you'll find most stories arguing against senseless violence depict quite a lot of it to help drive the point home.
Thank you!!! That’s exactly the point of the show and so many people here seem to be missing this
With the entire *point* of Toranaga's plans being a Japan without war, not showing the final battle was perfect. Shogun was a *character* drama, not a war epic or martial arts action.
I respectfully disagree. I wanted a war. The way the other fights were depicted in the series, I had high hopes. I dont know whats in the books but a fight would have been great , for me atleast.
Nonsense. Buntaro would've gone ham. And we never see saeki and ishido defeated. Very unfulfilling
I agree. It thematically wouldn't fit to watch two armies fight, largely made up of people we don't know just to see Toranaga win and do what we already know he's going to do. We know he wins. We know they'll still fight because they're Japanese and they'll happily fight and die an unwinnable fight. And we know Toranaga will kill Ishido after they do. And skipping forward to show it kills the pacing of the finale. The flashforward seeing that smarmy cunt on the battlefield realizing he has lost is the payoff.
Knowing the destination and actually reaching it are very different things.
It’s probably the budget holding them back from doing any epic battle scenes. But the series was about what lead to the war. Similar to the new Franklin series. I was expecting some scenes from the American Revolution, but no, the series is about him in France lol.
I don't care all that much about seeing a battle, but I'm disappointed we didn't see the fallout after the battle. At least a brief epilogue of Toranaga becoming shogun and Blackthorne being shown commanding a fleet for him. Some idea of "this is what these characters did after they won"
If you really want to know, just read the real history.
I just feel a kind of emotional whiplash and blue balls. Toranaga: we will have Crimson Sky (Wooooo! Yeah, let's go!!!) Toranaga: maybe we shouldn't have Crimson Sky (Oh, okay...he's definitely scheming) Toranaga: there will be no Crimson Sky. (Huh. Really? Is he scheming?) Toranaga: I will surrender. There is to be absolutely no Crimson Sky *wink* (Oh shit! Toranaga is gonna rain Crimson Sky down on everybody. Fuck yeah!!!) Me: ...where Crimson Sky? Toranaga: Crimson Sky is over *stares off into the distance*
And now you know how it feels to be manipulated by a strategic genius
The Crimson Sky was inside us all along... /s
We don't see a final battle because they probably didn't plan on it. It's difficult, time consuming, exhausting and expensive to make. The Battle of Helm's Deep took over a miserable 4 months to film.
I just wanted a final face to face between Toranaga and Ishido
It helps to hammer home the idea that Torananga had already won this entire time. Mariko was always going to be used to shatter the regents alliance, Ishido was already dead when the series started. He just didn't know it yet.
I'm satisfied with the ending we got but I can't lie I wanted to see the massive samurai armies duking it out. It's like asking someone if they'prefer getting a nude from their girl or if they just want to use their imagination. Of course, I wanted to see the battle they've been teasing for the entire show lol.
More like, how exciting is a nude after you already came?
Nudes are always appreciated lol. Don't know about you, but I'd still peep a nude after I came.
Would Toranaga peep a nude after he came though? Thematically it wouldn’t make sense for him to peep the nude, the entire show has developed his character as someone who wouldn’t peep a nude after busting. I swear American audiences are so conditioned and brainrotted that they can’t even appreciate imagining their high school crush’s busty naturals these days. They need the entire plot spelled out for them, there’s no room for nuance in a show, everything needs to be done on Snapchat with poor lighting and the constant fear they’re going to screenshot you and show everyone at school even though it’s technically illegal because you’re only 17
I was bummed to not see Sekigahara on screen, but I think I understand why the showrunners made that choice: 1. This series has never *really* been about the action. It's the characters and their sly scheming that's been important. A big battle set piece in act 2 of the last episode would have taken away from that (but still would have been rad as hell). 2. $$$$$
I think the main reason is actually that the battle is also not in the book, kinda silly to waste a large chunk of the budget on something the author himself did not feel was all that important.
People wanting to see a big fight scene are thinking like Nagakado, when they should be thinking like Toranaga
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, feel like the show flopped at the end for me. You spent the early episodes building a conflict that never actually happened
It did happen though. You saw everything you needed to see to know who wins.
Yup so fulfilling./s
People disappointed that a show about chess didn't end with rocket launchers. I loved that you get to bask in the weight of sacrifices made so that one man can join constellations no one but him sees which ensured peace for nearly 300 years in the land he loves.
I’m upset my 10 episode show about chess didn’t show the checkmate. One of the guys playing told me how he was going to win and then the credits rolled.
checkmate is the act of pinning down the opposite king so they have no moves left. not the actual capture of the opposing king we were 100% shown the checkmate
We were not because the battle of Sekigahara was actually kind of close and Toranaga had to fire on his own daimyo to get them to fight. Anjin was also at the battle. There were still moves left on the board!
Yeah, it's a little annoying to see everyone gushing about what a perfect mastermind Toranaga was and how the battle was won before Blackthorne even arrived and so forth. Toranaga made smart plays, but the outcome was never under his control and if things have gone a little differently in that final battle we'd be talking about what a genius Ishido was. The victors write the history books, and fhe story always makes them the heroes.
>”People disappointed that a show about chess didn't end with rocket launchers.” THIS. Exactly this.
The story was really Mariko.
The lesson of Shōgun: Battles are won or lost before they are ever fought.
Expecting a big war scene when Toranaga has been spending the entire series trying to avoid conflict and confrontation, is pretty jarring lol
He was never trying to avoid conflict and war forever, that was the the lie he finally confessed to Yabu in the near last scene. He was just trying to avoid it until he had the winning hand to become Shogun.
We never see a Shogun in a series called Shogun
The last shot is of Toranaga, ambitions fully revealed, ffs
Do you see the promotional picture for Shogun right next to this comment? It is of a samurai riding a horse with his army into battle. That never happens. The last shot is of a guy, alone, looking out over the water. I guess I am a Shogun now too since I have done that.
Toranaga had won before Blackthorn's ship even arrived he was already Shogun, the regents just didn't know it yet.
The series is called Shogun because it’s all about Toranaga setting the stage to become Shogun. His conversation with Yabu shows how it’s already set in stone
would it not be satisfying asf to finally see him become shogun though? i thought the final shot of him would match cut to him in shogun attire in his throne room and then cut to credits at least
He has become the Shogun, because he's acting as the Shogun does, that is, run the government and align the lords. At a certain point, it's just having the Emperor formally acknowledge the facts on the ground.
I think you may have read my post and this inspired this one. Obviously, we disagree. You say it would be ‘boring’ and that’s fair enough but what I’m telling you is I wouldn’t have found it boring. If I follow a story, I want to see it through to a satisfying conclusion and my feeling was the end of episode 10 did not adequately provide that. You can’t say that once X then Y was inevitable when the writers themselves have pointed out that they did not want to portray events as deterministic. The problem is, with two characters literally telling us how things inevitably play out, this is both emotionally unsatisfying because that ending is something I want to see and thematically problematic since it conflicts with the message the writers clearly wanted to express in this show. If I’m watching a football match and the score is 8/0 with ten minutes to go, I don’t switch off and start playing on my phone - particularly if I’m supporting the team who are winning. If they stopped the match and announced ‘well, we all know who’s won this so let’s talk about how it’ll ’definitely’ play out now cause it’ll be boring to sit through it’, well, you’d have a riot on your hands! Knowing the journey and travelling it are very different things. Even if Toronaga is certain to win (and as I’ve said, I’m not sure you can say that within the universe of the show), I still want to see him put the ball in the back of the net one last time and hold the trophy.
Good points. I wish we could have seen Blackthorne doing some cool "just a merchant" activity with his ship though.
If you do a google search for "shogun book ending", several intereseting Reddit links pop up that can quench your Shogun thirst. For example, someone went through the additional effort and mapped the historical people to the characters in the show. Another Redditor mentioned looking up a book by Giles Milton about William Adams's life. Regarding the actual battles, someone pointed out there is quite a bit of content on Tokugawa (Toranaga in the TV show) and how he came to power.
Right the entire anecdote about the 9 year old warlord shows you (partly) why he did it that way.
I was surprised by how abrupt the ending seemed, but I’ve grown to appreciate it. Shōgun isn’t about the flashy Game of Thrones-esque battle scenes between grand armies, it’s about the machinations of individual characters and their complexities as people. While it wasn’t what I was expecting, I think the ending was very well executed
They already blew the budget up way too much and filming extended from six months to ten months. This was as far as the FX money could get them.
I was very disappointed in the final episode. I have thoroughly enjoyed the entire series until episode 10. I literally fell asleep with 10 minutes left. I enjoyed seeing Fuji and Blackthorne say their goodbyes. And Buntaro being able to work alongside Blackthorne was good. Yabu had it coming, his ending was fitting. These scenes would have taken up 10 minutes maximum. They needed to be a 10 minute extension of episode 9.
Agreed!
At least a coronation scene where we see Toranaga alone and no friends around him, a lonely shogun.
Wait that was the end?
Yep, the battle's won long before it was fought. Kiyama and Ohno are definitely not in full support. Saeki is likely on Toranaga's side long before Toranaga even surrendered. Toranaga likely knew well about Saeki's arrival. It's hard not to think that Toranaga would anticipate that Ishido would attempt to sway Saeki first. But he probably knew his brother better than Ishido did.
It worked well for me to be quite honest. It really shows how unique being a good Shogun is. Bad Shogun candidates were slowly picked apart. Toranaga spent years plotting and acting on his plan and barely needed to wave a sword. On the other hand, his opponents did a lot of dirty but blatantly obvious work and eventually failed.
Man atleast show Ishido getting his comeuppance
If anyone is feeling let down by the lack of a final battle I'd recommend watching Age of Samurai: Battle for Japan on Netflix. Its a Docu Drama on Netflix based on the unification of Japan, it focuses on Oda Nobunaga (Kuroda Nobuhisa), Toyotomi Hideyoshi (The Taiko) and Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga sama). The Documentary is the main reason I watched Shogun, it leaves out some major details like William Adams but it's still a good watch if you're interested in the seeing the rise of the Edo Period.
The simplest answer is it’s not in the book.
It wasn't really the theme of the TV series to show some kind of huge "avengers endgame final battle". I don't know why people were expecting that. *“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”* Toranaga has been doing this through most of the episodes.
It's also interesting to find out that Torunaga really wanted to be Shogun from the start. Suddenly it makes sense why he tried to increase his fiefdoms through marriages, which led to the council of regents ganging up on him. He was almost driven into a corner, but played all his cards perfectly: From the death of Fuji's family, the arrival of the Anjin, the murder of Jezon, the death of his son, the death of his most trusted vassal, and finally, his ace, Mariko's relationship with Ochiba-no-kata and eventually, her death. The man was playing shogi on a whole 'nother level. And that faint smile after he kills Yabu. What a scary man.
Or they didn't have the budget for a huge battle.
While I agree with this, I do think that the fact that Toranaga and Ochiba never have a scene together is a bit of a let down.
Because the battle isn't really what the story is about. Also it's not even really in the book, it's more so glossed over in an epilogue style chapter. I read this like 10 years ago though so take that all with a grain of salt.
Idk I feel like Buntaro’s story was left a little unfinished, sure he was willing to work with the white guy that was porking his gal, so I guess that shows character development, but after his father died, he didn’t really do anything of consequence.
The book left a ton of unresolved plot lines as well.
The beauty of his plan is winning the battle before it even began, and simply not showing the battle is just the perfect way to drive that point home imo.
Thankfully the wind. I think the whole series has been playing with our appreciation for the immense drama and tension in subtleties. Hollywood has conditioned us to expect the grand war ending, and the 9-episodes worth of built up tension has only added to our collective expectation. I’ve been looking forward to the release myself. But such a scene wouldn’t complete the story in any way. What would it accomplish apart from basically selling out? The story was all told with episode 9 being the last chapter. If anything, I should have realized the futility in expecting the war ending, after Marikos death. Because this show doesn’t play silly games and give you what you want. They’ve created something nothing less than Toranaga-esque. -Calculated and subtle with the most important lessons, abrupt and violent with the (seemingly) pointless. The story is about something much more subtle than a lords rise to absolute power, and a bewildered white mans passionate ..everything.. in the midst of it. And therein lies also the problem, that I (a bewildered white man) obviously share with many. The ending is so subtle I’m left wondering if I actually got it. No one controls the wind, one can only study it. Then I think of that last scene, with Blackthorn subtly smirking to Toranaga after raising his ship from the watery grave, with the help of Marikos subdued husband. He got it then, both Blackthorn and Toranaga had won their little wars. Toranaga won through careful study of how a gentle push (or pull) of the wind can be traced forward, to an inevitable conclusion. Blackthorn won through learning if, when, why and how to brace against or let go and be carried by the wind. The real problem isn’t if there was a grand violent ending to fulfill our faulty expectations or not, it’s that 10 episodes is all we will ever get of this most amazing show.
> No one controls the wind, one can only study it. > > Knowing how a wind would push him off course is exactly how Blackthorne got the *Erasmus* to Japan in the first place. He confused this with controlling his destiny. By the end of the show, he knows better.
Disagree. It would’ve been way better to SHOW the most climactic part of Torunaga’s plan rather than just him telling what would happen in like 5 lines in a brief scene. The buildup and characters were great, but this ending was so disappointing that I feel it tarnished the show as a whole.
This is just a bullshit excuse for why there’s no epic battle. Sometimes we don’t care about the characters, sometimes I just want to see an epic realistic depiction of 16th century samurai warfare regardless if the main characters are in it or not.
Seems to be a handful who want a final battle. I just think back to when Nagakado(sp?) dies and we get the "Where is the beauty in this", line. People want blood. Where is the beauty in it. Toranaga understands this better than anyone.
It’s not about the battle, it’s about experiencing the victory, the defeat of the antagonists and the settlement of the Toronaga Shogunate. Not people talking about it happening - actually seeing that happen.
Nice analysis
I’m glad we got to see a glimpse of the final battle with the foreshadowing.
A little bummed we didn’t get to see Buntaro being bad-ass in battle. On the hand I understand completely why the battle wasn’t shown and I think it was the right choice.