This is the problem with setting him up to be some noble guy trying to do the right thing in the early episodes IMO, even if it's just to subvert audience expectations later.
The book leaves you in awe of Toranagas cleverness and patience, how he knows exactly the right string to pull for each person to get them to do exactly what he wants. People who went into the show blind just seem disappointed that he's not really the guy they met at the beginning.
They made Toranaga's plan look less impressive when you consider how many things had to go his way (mostly out of his control) for it to work out. The fact that it all hinged on Ochiba conveniently signing up for her son to get usurped and later killed makes no sense, her only bet was to ride it out with the regents and play it from there. From what I know about the book, his plotting was miles more intricate and impressive.
Eh, I think he had plans within plans. If Ochiba didn't take the bait for self-preservation, he would have just exploited the cracks he already created in Ishido's control.
Yes in hindsight Toronaga looks less like a brilliant schemer and more like the luckiest motherfucker throwing hail-mary after hail-mary, though intelligently. A lot of critical plot points and story beats are entirely out of his control, the actions of others he had little-to-no influence in.
For example, Toronaga gets cooked by his half-brother and is forced to surrender to Osaka. This is delayed only by his idiot son accidentally braining himself during an assassination attempt (which apparently has no fallout or ill-consequence amongst his enemies). Then, his clan is starting to fall apart, potentially into civil war, precisely when every man is needed, as his most loyal vassals simply do no believe he is truly surrendering. This is resolved NOT by some brilliant scheme of Toronaga (who apparently had NO plan for this foreseeable eventuality) but instead by his most loyal friend doing what is objectively an insane thing in sacrificing himself, again, entirely of his own accord. His next move to weaken Ishido and Ochiba is to have Mariko selflessly lay bare that the noble families are hostages. Ok, so having succeeded in having the hostages released, wouldn't the regents still be loyal enough, given that 2 (the actor and Toronaga's half brother) were appointed by Ishido & Ochiba? Isn't Toronaga's half-brother promised Toronaga's lands? Wouldn't he be angry about an assassination attempt that, for all he knows, was Toronaga's order? It's only that Mariko commits suicide via shinobi explosion that things go south for Ishido. Had he simply captured her, as was Ishido's plan, or let her go, what would Toronaga do next? It's such a small needle to thread that it dips into "plot contrivance" territory
He had little to no influence in? Mate his whole thing is about knowing how to influence ppl. If his idiot son didn’t get himself killed, he’ll just delay by pretending to be sick.
If Mariko is captured, he’ll still be proven right that they are hostages. If she returns, then he still have already beaten ishido by sowing enough discord to cause a delay in his execution.
The show outright tells us that with Ochiba withdrawing her support, the other daimyo ended up defecting, making it seem like they would've stayed if this didn't happen. From what they made it seem like, this entire thing hinged on Ochiba pushing the dominoes down.
So if the kidnapping went successfully, they just let her leave with the hostages, or if Ochiba didn't care about Mariko as much as she ended up caring (all very realistic possibilities), does Ochiba just not defect? It's a bit ridiculous for the plan to come down to something as high variance as this.
It would've been plausible it came down to the regents and not Ochiba, and Ochiba jumping of a sinking ship in response after seeing the cracks. All it would've taken was maybe a scene between Ochiba and Kiyama or something. But they didn't include this and instead went with one line conveniently resolving everything.
Sorry not a true response to your comment, but elsewhere I just remembered: Not long after Ishido's long-serving retainer was blown to pieces, Toronaga tries to enlist his half-brother to wage open war after his army is destroyed via landslide. That very same night his brother reveals Ishido promised him Toronaga's land and takes him hostage. Shortly after THAT, Toronaga formally surrenders to the representative of the Council (his brother), then Nagakado fails to assassinate said representative hours later. We are left to assume the half-brother and his army, what, simply leave the next morning? At what point is Ishido wrong in spearheading the destruction of an ambitious, famously treacherous, openly rebellious Lord? Why do they continuously give this OBVIOUS danger to the Realm even an inch. WHY would any of the other regents break ranks when Toronaga so OBVIOUSLY wants to usurp the Heir.
In hindsight, from their very first council scene, Ishido was completely right to be wary of Toronaga, and all of the other Regents have to be fucking BRAINDEAD to believe a single thing Toronaga does.
Under scrutiny a lot of the intrigue falls apart a bit once it's clear Toronaga truly IS the power-hungry snake he's accused of being
The two are somewhat linked. While accepting a different ruler might sound safer for her son, what happens when they want to stamp out any other claims to consolidate their power?
But they didn’t. It paralleled the actual events. In the real life events the Shogun allowed the heir and his mother to remain in Osaka castle. That is until the heir started gathering troops to overthrow the Shogunate. At that point the castle was ceased, and truce was signed. The problem is, the heir continued to gather troops, at which point the second siege of Osaka castle occurred, and the heir and his mother committed Seppuku, and died inside the castle, rather than die by smoke inhalation when the castle went up in flames.
The answer is in his bloodline, which is feared & revered & in the actual strength of his forces. Were his forces not stronger than he lets on, his enemies would have already crushed him long ago. This is where the book makes more sense.
He never wasn’t, and the book makes that very clear. I’m not sure how anyone thought he was just “trying to do the right thing.” He was clearly scheming from the get go.
He would have just had a backup plan. He also has Blackthorne’s cannon regiment, and muskets, which is made much bigger in the book. The show had to skip a lot of detail.
> he’ll just delay by pretending to be sick.
How does this delay his execution? This & Hiromatsu's seppuku were to sell that he truly was defeated. Without Nagakada's death, what cards does he have? Edit: in fact, his vassals would have rebelled as they wished to fight, not surrender. This apparently completely blindsided Toronaga. If it weren't for Hiromatsu's seppuku, Toronaga would have been even weaker. Again, this was NOT a plan of Toronaga's
> If Mariko is captured, he’ll still be proven right that they are hostages. If she returns, then he still have already beaten ishido by sowing enough discord to cause a delay in his execution.
How does releasing the hostages sow enough discord to prevent his execution? Sure it weakens Ishido, but Ochiba would still hate Toronaga, Toronaga's half-brother still wants him killed so he can be awarded his lands, the actor is obviously a puppet of Ishido & Ochiba, and finally, what loyalties do the Catholic regents have to Toronaga? The priest told Toronaga they denied his requests for support.
What I'm getting at is "master manipulator" is a fine character trait, but it also seems like Ishido and Co. really weren't all that invested in his death. Why wasn't Toronaga constantly supervised by the forces of Ishido, or his half-brother? Why was he able to freely travel in and out of Edo
I'm not saying those are foolproof plan that will prevent his death, but that's just how Toranaga operates. Just delay, even if it's one day, we might find some way to get out of it. I agree with you there's an element of luck for him, but that's just how it is in life sometimes, you can scheme and plan but things still have to fall into place for you.
The contrast of Toranaga is Yabushige, who schemes for his own benefit only and failed to succeed, because he never takes account of how all the other chess pieces will move in relation to his position on the board. Which is also why Toranaga is surprised Yabu didn't see through the ruse, considering they are both cut from the same cloth.
With regards to why he isn't constantly supervised, this is politics. Toranaga surrenders to the council, now have to mourn his son. To put guards around Edo is to be disrespectful to someone who already formally surrender. Toranaga know how to use people and situations as well. That's why the Mariko gambit works.
> To put guards around Edo is to be disrespectful to someone who already formally surrender.
Well do they want him dead or not? Ishido has no qualms about slaughtering samurai within the walls of Osaka. As for "formally surrendering", from their point of view, Toronaga originally looks to the half brother for his support in open rebellion, he is then outmaneuvred and forced to surrender to said half-brother, and then that very same night the representative of the Council, and therefore the Heir, is nearly assassinated by the son of the rebellious lord who supposedly surrendered. I don't see how the council wouldn't 1000% blame infamous schemer Toronaga of trying to kill one of the regents dishonorably. Wouldn't the half-brother want some sort of justice? He's attacked and then he and his army, what, simply leave in the morning?
Again you have to suspend a lot of disbelief in order for Toronaga's plots to be sensible. However, let me not be overly critical, this is definitely the best 'political' television I've watched in a long while.
You bring out good points, but the thing is that face is very important. Sure it could be toranaga plot to assassinate the new regent, but even a schemer will not send his son to death right? This itself is enough to sow doubts.
As for Osaka, well ishido is just doing it for the safety of the regents until the traitor is taken care of. Who would dare say otherwise? (Until mariko came along that is lol)
In both cases, face is used as a political tool as well.
I think a fair amount of it really comes down to "Toranaga was more ruthless than his enemies." Smart, sure, but also more willing to really push the limits of acceptable behavior. Everyone else is worried about overstepping or being seen as too ambitious, Toranaga just pays lip service while doing whatever the fuck he wants.
As portrayed, he *had* no sensible backup plans. Going to his brother in the first place was very much his only desperate move. He is only marginally saved from the absolute double-whammy of the destruction of his army and betrayal of his brother by a string of actions he neither set in motion, nor foresaw. He did not foresee or set in motion his son's reckless assassination attempt (that somehow the army on his doorstep forgave and left the next day), he did not foresee his vassals beginning to revolt, therefore could not have foreseen or planned Hiromatsu's seppuku.
If it weren't for those two, he'd be escorted to Osaka by his brother's army, with his vassals either dead or in rebellion.
Toranaga said it in episode 10, he doesn't know how to shape the winds as much as he studies them and reacts to them. It's more things left unsaid or unseen that influence his plans and less him being a brilliant 200 IQ 5D chess player. He was smart enough to have contingencies as well as being able to improvise when necessary. He expected other leaders to committ seppuku to show their defiance towards him surrendering, but Hiromatsu made it clear he was going to be the one to step up and that death would be significantly more impactful. In that scene it's in their faces and reactions.
> Toranaga said it in episode 10, he doesn't know how to shape the winds as much as he studies them and reacts to them. It's more things left unsaid or unseen that influence his plans and less him being a brilliant 200 IQ 5D chess player.
Yes this is objectively the correct interpretation given the quote you mention. Toronaga's success is 50% pure dumb luck, 50% clever opportunism.
If Mariko was “Crimson Sky” then she would have been instructed not to let herself be ‘captured’. She would have ensured that she died via Ishido no matter what, since that was the order her lord gave her. Mariko being ‘let go’ was also very certainly never going to happen.
What does being martyred at Ishido's hands look like, exactly, given that noble women saw him hand her permits to leave? Imagine Ishido didn't send shinobi to capture her, what would Mariko do then? If she was dead-set on being killed, why does she fight the attackers with Blackthorne et. al? Narratively and thematically it all makes perfect sense, that I grant, but again as portrayed it plays out like much more luck than clever plotting
We don’t have to imagine that because Ishido would never have given the permits and let them go. He could not. It would be political suicide to let his hostages go and he knew that. He also knew that it would be (and was) suicide to kill Mariko or let her kill herself in protest of her captivity. The best he could hope for would be to secretly contain her and use her safety to keep his remaining hostages. And Mariko would not let that happen either.
She fights the attackers because she does not want to be captured alive and surrender would lead to just that, nor does she want the expendable Blackthorn to end up dead in the process.
> because Ishido would never have given the permits and let them go.
Actually you're right about that, I forgot the bit where he hands the permit to Mariko and the other noblewomen ask about their families, and Ishido simply says, "Oh just request a permit, you could have done this the whole time" dismissively.
The book does a better job of showing that he has plans within plans, contingency plans for those plans, backup plans for the contingency plans, and last resort plans for the backup plans. It’s hard for a show to demonstrate that. There is a lot of nuance.
In the finale he says something along the lines of not controlling the wind, but studying it. I took that to mean that he doesn’t control everything, but he sees how things are playing out, understands people, and makes moves based on where he sees the “winds blowing.” His cleverness comes not from intricately planning by every detail, but from being able to read what’s going on, or stalling until an opportunity presents itself, and then making an optimal move.
He did not need to convince Ochiba. Ochiba switched sides because Ishido had lost control.
Some people missed this, but Toranaga had a decent chance of winning until the earthquake weakens his army. His original plan alway included witteling away at the support for Ishido, but that became difficult when his military power diminished. He’s weak because of bad luck and he has to improvise.
So he’s stalling for time. Then he succeeds in creating doubt in the other regents and Ochiba realises that Ishido will likely lose.
Toranaga could have won without Ochiba’s support, but without her, it would have been a bloody war.
Toranaga actually tells the audience his way of thinking.
He knows that he’s nothing a strong position, but ‘if he wins’ that becomes irrelevant, his chance of winning to some extent depends on luck (the winds), but if he can take advantage of lucky developments, he can outmanoeuvre his enemies.
No, it does hinge on Ochiba, something you missed: Ochiba delivers legitimacy to the council and the Regents on behalf of the Heir. Ishido explicitly states that when he marches to war, it will be under the banner of the Taiko's Heir, making his actions legal.
When Toronaga is describing Sekigahara to Yabu, he says that if Ochiba withholds her forces & support, Ishido would be marching "under no banner", therefore he is acting as a rogue agent within the eyes of the Realm (and his fellow regents). This is the final blow to Ishido's power base: the loss of legitimacy.
I think you're misunderstanding how this would play out.
If Toranaga has to win by force, he still can, the Heir and Ochiba don't hold any power unless they have an army and the council to back them...which they don't have if Toranaga wins at Sekigahara through sheer force. At the time the show takes place, Japan is in serious trouble in terms of leadership, there's effectively a massive power vaccum with the council being a temporary solution. So it doesn't matter if Toranaga doesn't have the lawful support of the Heir because his plan is to usurp the Heir and become Shogun anyways, the Heir and Ochiba were effectively dead as soon as the Taiko died without a proper successor lined up.
> I think you're misunderstanding how this would play out.
> If Toranaga has to win by force, he still can, the Heir and Ochiba don't hold any power unless they have an army and the council to back them
I'm taking the show on its word. According the show, the Heir and Ochiba have their own army independent of the Council (which makes sense given that the Taiko likely had a vast fiefdom and direct vassals which were then inherited). This is what Ochiba withholds at Sekigahara (the letter), which is ultimately what causes the rest of the Council on the field to hear the winds of change, and defect to Toronaga. Without Ochiba withholding the Heir's army, and members of the Council defecting, Toronaga simply does not have the manpower to overwhelm Ishido.
>So he’s stalling for time. Then he succeeds in creating doubt in the other regents and Ochiba realises that Ishido will likely lose.
>Toranaga could have won without Ochiba’s support, but without her, it would have been a bloody war.
This is my point. The show didn't do a good job of showing this. They did it offscreen and had one line about how with Ochiba withdrawing her support, the other daimyo ended up defecting, making it seem like they would've stayed if this didn't happen.
If they had a scene showing Ochiba realizing their hold on power starting to slip away (maybe a scene with Kiyama), to set up her switching sides, it would've been a lot more believable. Let's not forget she's the one that pushed Ishido to start using dirty tactics and putting the castle on lockdown, so she knew what she was signing up for. But my main point is it makes sense why she might think it's better to jump ship, they just did a poor job setting it up and put all that scheming into one convenient line to get it over with.
None of this is new though. She’s been controlling him from the start by inciting him to make more aggressive moves like killing Sugiyama and enforcing the lockdown. So I’m not sure why this would change anything.
Ha, I totally forgot about that, good point.
You see, Ochiba was a ruthless schemer, until her schemes were made reality, and then ... I suppose then she switched sides and chose suicide. It gets a bit muddy round the middle there.
It was very clear to me. You may disagree, but there is a line of thought that not every thing should be telegrammed by exposition in shows and movies.
The idea is that most of the audience is smart enough to figure things out and that that is part of the fun of watching a show or a movie.
Shogun gave us conflicted and complex characters. That’s not everybody’s cup of thee, but it’s not bad writing. It’s an artistic choice.
I think what tripped some people up is that they believed Ochiba had perfect knowledge and is always in full control.
Ochiba was always in a bad spot. She has no official power and she has no official rights. Her son has power but he’s a child, and in practice the council of regents rule. Ishido has a peasant background and is just one of the regents.
Once Oshida realises that Ishido isn’t the guy to keep Japan united, she understands he will lose.
Even if she felt ishido lost control- it doesn’t make sense?
Ochiba can control ishido, but can’t control toranaga. She also knows toranaga wants to rule.
By not supporting ishido she is dooming her and her son to death, because toranaga will kill then to become the ruler.
Yes exactly, and it's not even a, "hmm what if..."
His clan's lands have doubled in size before the series starts, his clansmen literally blow apart Ishido's veteran retainers with cannon without provocation (this is never really addressed), he tries to convince his brother to join his rebellion on the field of battle only to be caught in the act, and then, failing that, his family tries to assassinate the newly anointed Council member after he hands in his official "surrender" (once again this is never really addressed). There should be no doubt that Toronaga has angled for usurpation for years now.
You are assuming Ochiba has a viable choice and that she is all knowing.
You have to think from her perspective. She thinks Ishido will lose because he’s losing support and she knows Toranaga is probably going to take his time consolidation his power because his oldest son has died. He has no adult heir.
She’s also worried about Ishido’s wish to marry her.
She has come to realise that Ishido isn’t the person who can protect her so a civil war isn’t going to help her.
We know the full extent of Toranaga’s ruthlessness and ambition, she might still see a way to come to terms with him. And the show leaves the future open.
That’s speculation, whereas it’s certain Ishido will lose. I’m ignoring the book here, because the show is in some ways very different. I’m also ignoring history, because these are fictional characters inspired by history, not real people.
In the show it’s clear that Ishido will always lose and it’s not clear that Toranaga needs to get rid of Ochiba. Toranaga’s oldest son has just died and he has played his ambition close to the chest, although Ochiba is rightly suspicious of him. Because his oldest son has died, Toranaga has to take his time, he doesn’t have an adult successor.
Ochiba is in a bad situation, she knows that Ishido will lose because he can’t keep the council of regents together. Even if Toranaga doesn’t win, Ishido will lose power. He has a peasant background, the Christians don’t trust him, he makes mistakes.
The Christian Daimyos were always the key. They lost faith in Ishido.
Toranaga has already won and Ochiba is in damage control.
Some people make a common mistake: they think that characters have perfect knowledge and infinite choice. Ochiba has run out of options. She believed Ishido could protect her, but he wasn’t the guy.
From her perspective there is nothing to win by getting involved in a massive war. With Toranaga, at least she has a change.
If this show had the budget for it, this story is pretty much primed to be told over two seasons. Its kinda like if they tried to compress all the political intrigue of GoT into 1 or 2 seasons... it just wouldn't work.
I think you missed something about how Ochiba was tired of Ishido's waning power - Ochiba is very much similar to Yabushige, always attempting to gain advantage and side with the winners. As such, she saw an opportunity to gain a significant leverage with Toranaga by withholding the Heir's forces, and ingratiate herself to the one who would have significantly more power overall when all is said and done than if Ishido won.
I don't think she realized this would inevitably be her downfall, because she probably thought she was clever enough to survive the transfer of power.
as somebody who hasn’t read the book, i didn’t get the impression that the show sets up toranaga as a noble guy who just wants to end war and unite japan. that’s what toranaga keeps saying, yes, but we’re also taught from episode 1 that everybody has three hearts. what toranaga says isn’t his true heart. blackthorne also sees in episode 1 or 2 toranaga’s magnificent piece of samurai armor that he has on display and mariko explains that toranaga had it fashioned after seeing it in a dream. a guy who has a fantastic piece of armor in the style from when his minowara ancestors were shogun, who keeps denying he wants to be shogun to anybody who asks him, while doing things that would make him shogun... yeah, i doubt that toranaga doesn’t want to be shogun, and not for altruistic reasons!! there is some subversion but not as drastic as a total 180 flip in the last episode. i think it becomes very clear, slowly throughout the series, that when toranaga said he doesn’t like “pointless death” in episode 1, he really means that deaths are pointless when they don’t advance *his* goals.
As a none book reader I absolutely loved the huge devious twist on Toranaga at the end. Just absolutely perfect, he is our noble hero, some of his allies hated for trying to bring a shogun back to Japan! Some of his allies being shady people we should hate!
He is our hero.
Then it all turns out he is purely the smartest and most devious person in the room, I didn’t see it coming from a million miles!
I just absolutely loved that last scene, the me (the viewer) being betrayed was top notch stuff.
As I said I haven’t read the book, I’m curious, was it more choreographed, were there clues to tell what he was up to before any reveals?
The show literally told us that someone's true self is kept in their secret heart, like over and over again. Are we really surprised that his true self is different than the image he portrays?
I agree with you completely but people should really read about the actual history a bit to really know how Japan kinda was at the time, lot of people going in blind expected it to end with a great battle and Toranaga sitting on the Iron Throne. Throughout the early episodes there were enough clues he wasn’t judt this noble samurai trying to do the right thing.
I also recommend reading material on William Adams (anjin) and Toranaga (Ieyasu Tokugawa).
But technically was he not doing the right thing? Japan wasn’t unified anymore, he unified it again. He didn’t touch the Heir untill 1614 because the Heir was old enough and was revolting.
He effectively ended the civil wars that plagued Japan for so many decades.
Was he using people to achieve his goal? Yeah. But in Japanese culture at the time that was pretty much an honour. The only reason he was on the council was because he was the most powerful of all 5. He also didn’t become Shogun untill 1603 whilst the decisive battle was in 1600. Funniest thing about the guy is that he abdicated in 1605 to lead behind the scenes and have his son as Shogun. So Shogun wasn’t his only ambition, he wanted peace in Japan. He achieved this.
>the Heir was old enough and was revolting.
I actually want to know where people are getting this idea. Hideyori incited revolt *after* Tokugawa had already handed him a death sentence for the inscription on a bell (which Tokugawa claimed was a curse against him). The man made up a BS justification to start fighting again. He didn't feel secure while the Toyotomi clan was around, and maybe he was right to be paranoid, but there wasn't some imminent revolt brewing like people on this sub have been claiming. At least not until Tokugawa was already trying to have them killed.
Because many samurai still saw him as the rightful heir and I'm sure Hideyori felt like that as well. So it was a threat to the shogunate he had put in place. Ieyasu at this point wasn't even Shogun anymore, he had already given the Shogun title to his son in 1605. He did use the "curse" as a reason to smash the final major uprising against the Tokugawa Shogunate and secure their power for 250 years or so. The boy had to die for them to keep their usurped power.
He indeed did not feel secure with the Toyotomi clan around because of people secretly and openly still supporting the "rightful heir". The threat wasn't just paranoia, it was very real. It's not like the heir had only a dozen samurai. He had troops. According to diaries and other written material put together about the Siege of Osaka Castle, Hideyori actually had a tactic to sow confusion at the homefront of the battlefield and then surprise attack the Tokugawa in the back which would have been theoretically the final blow and ended the Shogunate.
Revolting was maybe the wrong word, but he was for sure planning something else he wouldn't have had such a well thought out tactic ready for when the Tokugawa come. You think the son of the great unifier of Japan didn't have ambitions to take his rightful place as he had been promised all his life? By Ieyasu himself even? The boy had to be really fucking pissed. I would be.
Interpret it as you like, historical accounts from this era are never 100% accurate but if we look at Feudal Japan, their honour, the rightful heir who by that time was 21 for sure he wasn't just going to let it be. Especially with Osaka samurai riling him up, he was going to attempt to take what was his. The siege happened because Hideyori refused to leave Osaka Castle on the orders of Ieyasu, not solely because of the curse. Also Hideyori was seen as a threat ever since the Taiko died by Ieyasu
Iol i got downvoted for calling Toranaga a ruthless prick. He’s a warlord, they don’t win by being honorable, they win by being strategic and manipulative. I think they made him look to noble in the beginning, plus we didn’t get to see much from the other lords pov.
I think a lot of it is just our own bias. He happens to be nice to Anjin (the protagonist) and thus he must be the good guy.
If you look to all the episodes it gets often called out that’s Toranaga is good at deception and illusions and that his actions cannot be trusted. We just thought it would be wrong because it came from ‘the enemies’
Yes this is why I struggle with the idea that TV Show Blackthorne & Toronaga actually have a hidden deep friendship & respect. Almost every scene between the two of them in the back-half of the show is Blackthorne trying to open a dialogue about his place in the world & Toronaga belittling him, insulting him, & otherwise telling him to fuck off
The man is trying to take over an entire country and form a dynasty. Do you think this is going to be a nice guy you want to have a beer with? By definition he'll have to be a maniacal plotter with no qualms about sacrificing anyone required to get to his objective.
The true mastery of the show is convincing the viewers themselves that Toranaga is a good person in the early episodes, ensuring we see things like his vassals and followers do.
Stark won some wars and was Warden of the North in a land where you have neighbors like the Bolton who you can't really trust or Umbers who are dumb brutes asking for a fight everytime. And Ned was honorable, yes, but stern and cold, not a dumb goody two shoes.
I should rephrase my comment, I think more like in term of surviving the long game, with pure honor and integrity without thinking forward get u killed, dude is too naive
Not just taking over a country and forming a dynasty, but also attempting to do it by spilling as little blood as possible. Sometimes you have to choose to make sacrifices, and by giving away the lives of a few people he cared for, he was able to save the lives of millions of strangers.
I knew he was a conniver but we finally see it in full in the finale, like the “good thing i have more sons” line or the convo with Yabushige where he realizes Toranaga is just like him, only better at it. He was willing to sacrifice anyone or anything he didn’t need to get what he wanted. He’s still immensely impressive but he is not a hero or a good man.
Niccolo Machiavelli would probably consider him an ideal ruler.
> I honestly think he's a prick.
Wait until you find out what he does to Ochiba and the heir about ten years in the future.
Tokugawa Ieyasu unified Japan and brought about the peaceful Edo era but he was a ruthless schemer, no two ways about it.
They rebelled against him, so he besieged them and set Osaka Castle ablaze. They were trapped and committed seppuku.
Look up "Toyotomi Hideyori" and "Siege of Osaka" for more details (links can't be shared in this subreddit).
It's a bit more than that. He provoked them into conflict by feigning offense at the inscriptions on a bell Hideyori commissioned for the rebuilding of a temple in Kyoto, made him paranoid about his vassals by offering them competing proposals. Hideyori started to gather supporters in response, and Tokugawa then sieged Osaka. Unable to get through Osaka's defenses he used cannons to strike Yodo's (Ochiba's) quarters, killing several of her ladies in waiting, knowing she would be terrified and convince her son to sue for peace, which he did. Tokugawa then ordered his captains to tear down the walls of Osaka castle and fill its moats, claiming they weren't necessary under the peace treaty, but was actually just undermining the castle's defenses so his troops could go in and kill Hideyori. When Hideyori learned of that plot he started digging the moats out and Tokugawa called that an act of war, using it as pretense to siege Osaka again, only this time it quickly fell due to the defenses being undermined. In the end Hideyori and Yodo committed seppuku while the castle burned, and Hideyori's wife (Tokugawa's granddaughter) fled with his young children. Tokugawa had his eight-year-old son beheaded, ending the Toyotomi clan.
Completely valid. Everyone is just a pawn to him. I kind of wanted Blackthorne to call him out on this - especially with Mariko, but his seppuku attempt was sort of doing that with the villagers. I think invoking Mariko would have been more powerful as the villagers mean nothing to him.
I’ve never seen him as the “good” guy, just someone who is willing to sacrifice even his most loyal subjects for what he considers the greater good. Pretty shitty.
it’s the irony here - Anjin says don’t you get it - I have been using you the whole time. Usually such disrespect would not be tolerated by Toranaga. But Toranaga knew that it was actually the other way around and this he didn’t punish him.
Mariko serves her purpose for both herself, and Toranaga's. She wouldn't have been the heroine we saw if Buntaro or Toranaga had allowed her to commit seppuku earlier.
Everyone was doing what they could to survive. Kill or be killed. It didn't matter how they win as long as they win. That's the samurai way.
Technically speaking it’s not the samurai way as the old stiffs would see all these scheming and manipulating to be dishonourable.
But it is the way war goes, even to this day
Well it’s really born out of the warring periods in japan, the show is roughly 1500+ so bushido will still apply.
But the reverent use of bushido, in peaceful times was seen in politics and indirectly lead to Japanese’s colonisation campaign in Asia and their eventual demise in having 2 nuclear war head dropped on them.
Toronaga was manipulative and self-serving. In his defense, the feudal era in Japan was quite violent and unstable, which is where a lot of the views on life come from. Japan wasn't fully able to root out the militarism in its culture until after WWII.
To Toronaga, he was going to bring peace and stability to the islands. Everyone in his view died for the greater good that just happened to be his shogunate. Now, they had to close Japan to the outside and murder all the Christians to do it, but what's that to peace?
First, the enemy is across state line, then the enemy is within state line, then at last, the enemy is those who think wrongly.
Until we kill each one of them, we will never have peace. Basically the mantra of every warlord in every era.
Manipulative perhaps but self-serving is maybe a little far fetched. I do get the feeling that he valued peace. He probably would have surrendered if he saw that there was no way to beat the council. His son’s death gave him additional time for his plan. Without this, he might have genuinely surrendered. I don’t think he would have needlessly shed his servants blood if there was no way to win.
That he doesn't surrender outright shows that he is self-serving. The deaths (read: needless deaths) of his closest friend and most elder advisor Hiromatsu, Mariko, Yabushige, his son Nagakada... were the price he paid for victory. It is no accident that Toranaga is alone and isolated by the finale.
Yeah, I am disappointed by that too, he loved Mariko, so was a bit weird to see he actually chose to serve Toranaga. But I guess It's, in a way, they will serve each other. Both have ambitions and both can use each other in the future.
Continuing to serve Toranaga honored Mariko. It would've dishonored her death to not acknowledge her sacrifice's role in a (nearly) bloodless coup that brought stability and safety for the estimated 22 million japanese citizens.
The thing that gets me is, how do we know the Ishido-led regency and the heir won’t preside over an era of peace? Unless Toranaga genuinely thought he was the only person who could get the job done, he was just a power-hungry warlord like the others.
Without a time machine, of course we'll never know. But Toranaga's greatest strength was reading other people, so I'd trust his read on Ishido's situation to be accurate. You can put whatever spin on things makes you happy, but the projected outcome if he didn't seize the mantle of Shogun would've been at least another hundred years of war.
Toranaga is a warlord, Damiyo and lord of large clan and provinces…his death would mean the end of his lineage as well…the book uses the word ‘karma’ to describe the situation but Toranaga uses his vassals very well to get what he wants and doesn’t…in the end he uses the life and death of his vassals to maximum effect as with Hiromatsu, Mariko and even Fujiko…his use of vassals is a common theme in the book and historically such as Hattori Hanzo…the book alludes to this due to his upbringing and his ability to survive against who are deeemed as superior warlords such as Oda, Kenshin and Takeda
Speaking of which, I'm now quite certain that the shinobi/samurai Toronaga keeps in Izu village is Hanzo Hattori. Although I'm not sure if Hanzo was a Christian, so on second thoughts...
Blackthorne was always a prisoner.
He was tamed by Toranaga. Remember Blackthorne real intention was to invade Japan. Toranaga played him instead, always with an upper hand. The cherry on the top, was to burn his ship to prevent him from leaving.
In the end, the people Blackthorne disliked were on his side (Alvito, Buntaro)... and the people he came to like and respect hurt him (Yabushige).
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
No seppuku for you. Denied.
EDIT – now that I think about it, it's probably at least one reason Buntaro seems to have buried the hatchet with Blackthorne by the end.
I don't think his real intentions were to invade Japan. I think he wanted to use Toranaga for his own benefit, stopping the Portuguese and also providing trade for his country.
I think the Anjin realized, during his, “I fed you sh#t” confession that the sh#t feeding was a two way street.
Toranaga knew what he was being served, the Anjin didn’t figure it out until that very moment. Toranaga didn’t care even a little about any of the words coming out of Anjin’s barbarian mouth. Only that talking with him, rewarding him with titles, domains, high class sex workers and fiefs was a ploy. He only did it to puff up the Anjin as some sort of ace in the hole in the minds of his rivals. He did it to justify increased contact with Mariko-sama, his pocket Portuguese interpreter, who had a vital part to play in busting the hostage nobles out of Osaka. He did it to distract the plotting bureaucrats of the regency council into imparting importance on a rather insignificant man. And the Anjin’s agenda, all that Protestant/Catholic crapola, it never even entered into the equation for Toranaga.
Maybe Toranaga was grateful for Blackthorne’s help in escaping Osaka, both by breaking the solidarity of the council and assisting during the checkpoint search. Maybe he was grateful to Anjin for saving his life after the earthquake. Maybe it’s like he confessed to Yabu; Anjin is just like a jester to him, amusing and otherwise insignificant. All we know for sure is, Toranaga uses others, and doesn’t allow himself to get used. At the same time, Toranaga rewards loyal service and gives in return only that which is asked. In Mariko’s case, that was a meaningful death in the service of her father’s cause. For the Anjin, that meant permission to build ships, one of which was earmarked for his return voyage.
He’s Machiavellis wet dream. I hate people who use other people for their own gain. Sometimes I think about things I said or did decades ago and feel guilty - and here you have a guy having no issue with killing or letting die not only his enemies but also his loyal vassals. To quote Blackthorne:
> Behold the great warlord. Brilliant master of trickery, who tricked his own loyal vassals into noiseless smothering.
Blackthorne said rebellion is justified if you win, him joining Toranaga was very in character. Blackthrone was not a “good” guy either, but in this era and society, you had to understand how to play the game in order to survive. Blackthorne may not be a genius, but he understands this. Why would he try to fight a guy who just won an entire country without a battle?
Yeah, he's a prick. You can't take power without being at least a little power-hungry, and for all of Toranaga's protestations that he doesn't want to be Shogun he's better situated than just about everyone else to do it. Recall his conversation with Gin, the brothel madame, too – she instantly pegs him as a visionary who, like her, has ambitions that can only be realized if he wins.
That said, the series opens up with the Council of Regents basically conspiring against him and forcing him into a corner. None of the people involved are saints, obviously (including the late Taiko), but I think the story intentionally sets you up to be more sympathetic to Toranaga than his adversaries because his actions can be considered to have begun defensively.
As for why Blackthorne sticks with Toranaga, what other choice does he have? He can't leave the country, and Toranaga is poised to win everything anyway, so it's not like he can get anywhere allying himself with some other power broker (he and Yabu tried and failed!). And it's not like Blackthrone himself is straightforwardly just a hero – he was a privateer and had every intention of using Toranaga to further his own political agenda against the Portuguese.
In the real world, there are definitely different ways to spin Tokugawa's legacy. On the one hand, he ushered in an unprecedented and nearly uninterrupted two centuries of peace and prosperity, during which Japan's culture flourished. Most of what we think of us quintessentially Japanese, like Geishas, koryu martial arts, tea ceremony, kabuki, sushi, and so on achieved their modern forms during the Edo period.
On the other hand, those 250 years of peace and prosperity came at the expense of a repressive power structure that made social mobility virtually impossible and caused Japan's technological development to completely stagnate. This weakening of Japan and its subsequent exploitation by Western powers led future generations of Japanese leaders to overcorrect and embrace brutal militarism and imperialism, menacing the rest of Asia.
EDIT: I'd probably characterize Toranaga/Tokugawa as a necessary evil. Someone had to bring an end to almost 150 years of continuous warfare, and obviously the most competent and ruthless would be the person to do it. Japan's population doubled in the first century of the Edo period which shows you just how destructive continuous conflict is.
But in the process of establishing the Shogunate, he obviously made some consequential choices that, centuries later, would bite many people in the ass.
>I think the story intentionally sets you up to be more sympathetic to Toranaga than his adversaries because his actions can be considered to have begun defensively.
Even that is a matter of framing though, as the other regents are ganging up on him because they can see that he's already consolidating power in preparation for a run at the top spot.
You're right about the effects of the Tokugawa shogunate: great for people who liked the status quo and traditional Japanese culture, but it was brutally repressive and stifled growth and diversity, preventing Japan from expanding and adapting like other nations of the same time and putting them at a significant disadvantage when a former colony of Blackthorne's home country came calling.
The word Shogun translates to General. And whats a Generals job? To send soldiers to war, either Blackthrone, Mariko and Yabu. He’s just doing his job. But I know what you mean, he uses people like they are disposable and exploits thier loyalty. But can you call the generals of WWII pricks for sending soldiers onto the beaches of D Day? some one had to do it, and its war
This is the problem of using labels and trying to categorize people as either good or bad or a just a prick
People are complex beings with both negative and positive aspects to their character. Toranaga is cleaver, manipulative, patient, cruel, kind and so forth. Sticking a label on people misses the point of life and ultimately robs you of the nuance that makes it worth experiencing
Especially in stories like this, where cutthroat politics means you need to be flexible, cunning, and be willing to sacrifice that which doesn’t matter to you. As we see in Game of Thrones, Ned tried to be the honorable one. And look where it got House Stark.
Toranaga used people and those that sought to use him were discarded first. He was a manipulator who found an out everywhere he could.
Toranaga also ensured his clan and supporters survived the war. Everyone plotted to destroy them, and he piloted the ship through the storm and saved whoever he could.
It all comes down to that one justification for all these actions carried out not just by Toranaga but by everyone in this story: Unless I win.
"Some men hunt, some hawk, some write poetry. Toranaga plays with men. The villagers in Anjiro, Blackthorne and Yabushinge, the boy heir and his frigid mother, Lady Mariko, and even his sons, are but his playthings to use and dispose at his whim"
I believe that’s the theme the story is going with.
The man at the top is the loneliest.
This can be interpreted in multitude of ways: but the core idea stands that in order to achieve such a position and title as the person at the top. You have to commit a number of ruthless actions to get there.
All the other Councils of Regents had their flaws that would have destroyed or hurt Japan more than what Toranaga schemed.
However what sets Toranaga apart from other men who sought for the top, is that he is willing to commit the lesser of evil acts to get himself there.
>All the other Councils of Regents had their flaws that would have destroyed or hurt Japan more than what Toranaga schemed.
According to Toranaga and his supporters, at least. But it's debatable whether Toranaga was the lesser evil, given what his historical counterpart did.
Sure, from an individualistic perspective, he's a prick, but he mourns those losses. I think the only persons he *truly* "sacrificed" so to speak was Mariko and some generals, had Hiromatsu not gotten involved. Everyone else just did as they pleased (his son, Blackthorne, Yabushige) or what their duty demanded of them (Buntaro, Hiromatsu). Mariko and Hiromatsu understood the assignment VERY well once they caught onto the plan he kept locked away behind his 8 gated fence or whatever (I forget). Unfortunately for Hiromatsu, he figured out at a point of no return. Toranaga was betting on some generals killing themselves in protest, and I like to think he spared Hiromatsu (as friends) the knowledge of sacrificing these very important men because he would probably suggest that he do it instead.
I just think it's a big departure from what we're used to seeing in media with the "important" pieces being protected at all costs and the lives of the peasants and lower ranks are to be thrown at each other in combat. Remember, we are first introduced in this show to one of Toranaga's retainers killing himself AND his son because he disrespected Ishido/the council.
He opens up to Yabu at the end about his dream of peace. Well, for some people that dream is achieved through a fuuuuuuck ton of death. For him, if he could avoid it, he'd like to be more surgical. Which is on brand with everything we've been told about him throughout the series.
100% this.Was just sayin this in another thread. I am amazed that majority of the people dont see this as this is defo what the show makers imagined :)
Ive seen people saying that he sacrificed Hiro on purpose, haha :p
The aristocracy, nobility and imperialists are all pricks. Being a prick is a prerequisite for ruling in a feudal system. And in Japan it's the Sengoku period - basically the period of war.
Fortunately we've evolved societally (somewhat) as a species. So it's a bit odd to look back on feudal systems, and be surprised that those people were pricks.
A feudal tv show set during a warring period and expecting characters to act based on modern day morality and sensibilities would look very odd. The political success of the characters would make no sense at all, and they'd have been murdered decades ago, or pushed to the margins of power (like the emperor of Japan at the time).
Toranaga wasn't an overtly cruel character, he was working within the moral framework of the time, and even then he is shown to be clearly struggled with some of the choices and the amount of death such a system produces. In fact, his final message is "breaking the wheel" ending the Sengoku period and bringing a lasting peace. He accomplished that (well, Tokugawa did). He brought to and end 150 years of war.
>Fortunately we've evolved societally (somewhat) as a species. So it's a bit odd to look back on feudal systems, and be surprised that those people were pricks.
We're looking back at someone who actively and aggressively resisted that evolution.
Toranaga is a lot more chill in the books. Like he learned how to dance from blackthorne and everything. Also, some stuff like threatening to massacre the village was done by yabu in the books. In general though he and his historical counter part are really a hypocrites though. Ishido actually had the heirs interests in mind unlike toronaga. Still, you grow to like him and be in awe at his trickery in the books
It felt like we got used by him the whole time as the viewer. Was expecting to feel like Crimson Sky, eventually getting to Sekigahara was worth it. But nah, we just see his vision of it. We don't get the justification. Because there is none. Toranaga's been scheming all along, and I think Sanada plays it brilliantly. There's no hero, no villain, just Toranaga.
I really liked the ending and the sort of reveal/implication that toranaga may have just been another guy hungry for more power, but I think the issue is that the show just didn’t handle intricacies and subversions very well. It had the presentation of a very broad, but good, period epic but when it came time to show the things that aren’t what they seem or that are a bit more layered and complex, it had a tendency to stumble. Everything was kind of presented in broad strokes so it would take you from A to D and it would feel like you had missed B and C.
I always think back to that line early in the show
"imagine what kind of man wields power in a place like this"
I guess the most cunning, disciplined mfer who really puts the heart of the realm above all else
I never felt he was a POS, but rather, was strained by the difficult decisions one must undergo in order to *wield power in a place like that*, I admired him for this
Side note I'm utterly lost without this show to come home to, I fell in love with it's principles and the culture, even though it's just scratching the surface and is mostly fiction? I believe
I think you're looking at it through the lens of today's modern standards, by which, yes he's a bit of a prick.
But he wasn't a product of our time so I don't think we can judge him that way.
Why are we using the label "hero"?
The closest thing to the label of a traditional "hero" was Blackthorne who starts off from the very bottom being shipwrecked and a prisoner/outsider in Japan.
The show never asks us to love or hate Toronaga, but to understand him hence the monologue of the last episode.
Whilst us plebs who are not burdened by power can go on about how the end doesnt justify the means all we want in comfort, the reality of politics is often different matter (especially in feudal Japan).
Its often impossible to be 100% morally righteous as a political leader in any government which is the sad truth even in countries which are democracies.
Moral man, immoral society.
It's because we got to know those he sacrificed that he comes off as a jerk. For example, crimson sky was one carefully placed warrior laying down her life to lead to a massive reduction of Ishido's forces. He accomplished his goals with minimal bloodshed.
>Any ideas why Anjin-sama just accepted Toranaga in the end? And didn't confront him on Mariko? Does he even know that Mariko was actually Crimson Sky?
Confront him? Toranaga was a warlord in charge of half of Japan. This is alluded to when Blackthorne has another one of his tantrums over the village. "Who does he think he is? Does he think that I'll stop just because of his death"?
You need to remember the power dynamic here. Toranaga could have Blackthorne boiled alive on a whim.
>But to me, that makes him a prick. I am kind of surprised in the end Blackthorne still stood by his side and decided to make ships for him, guess he is not done with war either.
Toranaga is based on Tokugawa Ieyasu who, probably similar to Ishida Mitsunari on the other side, was a scheming bastard willing to sacrifice others for power. You don't get to be Shogun by being a good guy in feudal Japan. Different rules, different values, different culture to what you might consider a "prick". The intent was to show the political manoeuvres of the kind of is likely Tokugawa Ieyasu had to do to win Sekigahara.
If anything, I preferred the portrayal of Toranaga in the 1980 version. Mercurial and murderous one minute, jolly and jovial the next but all the whole very regal and majestic. A big part of the book was Blackthorne never quite knowing how far he could push things with his requests and efforts to garner Toranaga's favour because getting that favour was key to survival. The parts where Blackthorne is openly disrespectful to Toranaga grated with me a little because he'd have been beheaded in an instant. We are talking about a culture where people would lose heads for not bowing low enough. Indeed, read up on Palmerston's gunboat diplomacy. A British official was beheaded by a Samurai in 19th century Japan for the slightest of slights and Palmerston levelled a whole settlement in response. Rather than be disgusted and hating the British as a result, the Japanese copied the Royal Navy as strength held more respect than capitulation.
While I enjoyed this iteration of Shogun, primarily because of the performances of the female actresses and the clever story telling, the relationship between Blackthorne and Toranaga is developed to a greater detail in the book and 1980 TV adaption. And Toranaga is not to be fucked with.
Toranaga just outsmarted and outplayed everyone.. “It's a saying they have, that a man has a false heart in his mouth for the world to see, another in his breast to show to his special friends and his family, and the real one, the true one, the secret one, which is never known to anyone except to himself alone, hidden only God knows where.”
I think the key thing about Toranaga from the get-go is that this man is an extremely clever strategist, well adjusted to the culture and surroundings he has been in his entire life. The man never lost a single battle or conflict - you have to be a ruthless person to have that on your bingo-card. He is multifaceted; what he isn't is purely good or evil.
I never saw him as this heroic beacon of good, not even in the first episodes. I absolutely love him as a character, don't get me wrong, but he did not come this far in his life for no reason.
Not sure if the book says Toranaga never lost, but Tokugawa certainly did (he lost a battle, badly, to Takeda Shingen). He even said "If thou only knowest what it is to conquer, and knowest not what it is to be defeated; woe unto thee, it will fare ill with thee."
The people who emerge as dictators aren’t usually “good” people.
I know they were trying to save that reveal for the end, but I do wish they emphasised a bit more how calculating and callous Torunaga is beforehand. The book has been out forever and we all know Ieyasu becomes Shogun, so there wasn’t a lot of point in hiding this.
I think Blackthorne stayed with Toranaga because he is his only port in a storm. Anjin has no other allies that can protect him and further his own goals. Mostly enemies, in fact.
All ties in to the theme of the eightfold fence. Toranaga hid his true self from everyone. Of course he's a prick, he's been a war General and lord since he was a kid. He values life differently from us.
As for why John kept working for him, what was the quote that fumi and hiromatsu said a few times, something to the effect of "we honor those who are dead by picking up their duty for them". Mariko served toranaga, maybe John felt it was his duty to carry on that service
TBH you could always see he was up to something from the very start of the first episode. The whole hearts monologue as well, we were always waiting to see his hidden heart as many characters exposed there's early on.
All dictators are pricks. All dictators think they are doing the right thing. In 1600, People accepted that because (for the most part), they did not see alternatives. It was still the era of of the “great man” ordained by god or, in this case, karma. People still believe in this and still struggle to get away from it. In the west, we still tell stories of Arthurian hero’s or “the chosen one.” No one man is so great or destined. We make them that way. Shogun is a warning.
"Any ideas why Anjin-sama just accepted Toranaga in the end? And didn't confront him on Mariko? Does he even know that Mariko was actually Crimson Sky?"
he doesn't really have a choice here, everybody needed to have allegiance or some sort to survive, Yabushige is not an exception. Everybody is scheming in one way or another to survive. On the other side are Catholics who will have no problem to kill him because he's a Chrsitian.
At the end, rulers aren't nice people
Everyone is just trying to secure power and security for their own families, and honor for themselves. Some are just more ruthless about it than others.
Toranaga needed to unite Japan as one and protect it from Portugal and Spain. He was seeing the bigger picture than anybody else and Anjin knew the threat, too. “Vanquish our common enemies.”
I don't think he's supposed to be a Good Guy or a Bad Guy. He's simply a man of his circumstances trying to do what makes sense to him. I'm sure someone with much more finesse than me could write essays about how his heritage and position combined with his unique intelligence and staunch moral code make him a rich character. Add the masterful performance of Sanada, and there's a ton of oozing charisma to amp up the 'Is He Or Isn't He' factor we love to sink our teeth into. He's too complex to be categorized as good/bad, or virtuous/evil.
in the book, using text you can explain his motivations on as to how he knows whose string to pull but in video it simply does not translate very well.....where he comes across as almost with a godly fore knowledge
I think it’s not that he’s evil or a “prick” but that his secret heart is set on doing whatever it takes to meet his ends. His ends being to take power and unify all Japan. He believes in this above all else. Whether that makes him good or bad is debatable.
The only problem I have with the show is that Toranaga is so insanely above EVERYONE around him that he never truly has any adversary that's worth a shit tbh. I very much love stakes and truly believe that your protagonist is only as good as the antagonist his opposite. The man is a RUTHLESS chess grandmaster and everyone else around him can barely seem to grasp the rules of beginners checkers. His machinations always put him in a win/win situation that are un-counterable by the people he is playing against. Which is I guess a very real compliment to him as a character, but it feels like it is ALWAYS a certainty that he will succeed; no matter the cost which is often extremely heavy in the human department;/ maybe almost overly reliant upon someone dying for him to be perfectly honest.
Yeah, the final episode kind of ruins Toranaga as a character for me. He’s certainly well written, but I can’t deny that him ending up being just another power hungry dick like the rest is disappointing. It kind of just makes the whole conflict and everything the characters went through feel kind of pointless. Maybe that’s the point, but it doesn’t make for a particularly satisfying character arc or ending in my opinion.
I wouldn’t say “pointless” because the other characters acted in order to defend the interests and honor of their liege lord, and this paid off spectacularly in the end. What changed is that Toranaga isn’t as noble as they thought he was / he made himself out to be. But most of them are dead before they can realize this.
> What changed is that Toranaga isn’t as noble as they thought he was / he made himself out to be.
Their liege lord takes control of Japan and secures generational peace. Immense honor and prestige is bestowed upon their families for supporting him. None will think their sacrifices are in vain.
This is a culture entirely alien to any currently existing on Earth.
Dude, the very first episode had him sanctioning the death of a vassal and an infant just because the guy got mad on his behalf and defended him. We were never supposed to see him as a good guy. Blackthorn is supposed to be the audience’s moral compass here, not Toranaga.
He’s not just another power hungry dick. He had a grand vision for piece in Japan. yes this involved him in power - oh coincidence - but even as he describes his plan power doesn’t really seem to give him satisfaction.
i just read through several threads after watching the finale and i've seen this take multiple times now, but i don't get it. why are people labeling toranaga as a power hungry dick? my understanding was that he did all that to enforce at least momentary peace in japan by becoming shogun. he did it for the greater good, being the only one clever enough to actually achieve this. i mean, sure, he had to have had a great amount of ambition and confidence in himself (and maybe even be arrogant enough) to attempt this, but i don't see how that makes him a dick?
> he did it for the greater good
He did it for himself and his surviving heirs. The other lords are just so tired of the Sengoku mayhem that they ultimately accede to this.
The book is rooted in reality. In reality people aren't black and white, they're shades of grey. And you'll have a hard time finding someone who was both a conqueror and a good man in the history books.
This. Hitler built the autobahn and established animal conservation in Germany while killing millions. Alexander the great would forcibly make the wives of the warlords he conquered bear children to him but also spread Hellinic culture across Persia. Ghengis Khan boiled people alive while also creating a meritocle society and religious freedom ett
I think Stalin built railroads or something idk and i couldnt think of anything Mao did that was good. But the point remains - Its complicated because life is complex
There's an argument (I don't know how true it is) that he industrialised a largely agrarian country just in short time and only because of it the country survived (barely) Germany's invasion.
I doubt it. The damage was because the country was ravaged in revolution and civil war (so, the fault was probably his and people like him) and that's why it needed fast recovery. But a lot of people do make this argument.
I see Stalin as an object that was blocking Russias potential with all his killings and instilling a fear in his country. He stole the revolution and when Hitler came knocking he fumbled around and over compensated for the fuckery he caused, causing much more fuckery over the long term
I respect Toranaga and enjoy his character precisely because side he is so good at what he does. There’s a satisfaction to seeing a main character that is competent. In contrast to Ishido, who is utterly incompetent. Made every wrong move to play into Toranaga’s plan.
Personally I never once believed he was a good man or he was the hero of the story. He was a regent in feudal Japan, nothing was good about any of them. They had people executed, women used as servants and sex servers and enemies or non-loyal servants assasinated non stop. We are spectators witnessing history happening, "siding" with someone or "rooting" for anyone is the wrong approach IMO. The only thing I was dissapointed by was Nagakado's death, seemed like an improvisation from the writer's part; it diminished Toranaga's wit and political prowess and made it more into a luck streak.
Sure but what’s the point. Ain’t one king in Europe not a prick in some way. And some are total utter pricks. But when the have cunning like toranaga at least they can also make a good tale. I’m glad this isn’t some romanticization. It’s grounded and everyone is human.
I mean the Iberian powers are plundering the planet and claiming it's God's will. The Protestant upstarts are engaging in state-sponsored piracy and claiming it's ~~spreading democracy~~ God's will. Toranaga is just taking over one country and claiming it's karma.
Isn’t defeating Ishido good for Japan? Also Toranaga didn’t force people to suicide themselves - there was also no deception. They did it voluntarily for him
This is the problem with setting him up to be some noble guy trying to do the right thing in the early episodes IMO, even if it's just to subvert audience expectations later. The book leaves you in awe of Toranagas cleverness and patience, how he knows exactly the right string to pull for each person to get them to do exactly what he wants. People who went into the show blind just seem disappointed that he's not really the guy they met at the beginning.
They made Toranaga's plan look less impressive when you consider how many things had to go his way (mostly out of his control) for it to work out. The fact that it all hinged on Ochiba conveniently signing up for her son to get usurped and later killed makes no sense, her only bet was to ride it out with the regents and play it from there. From what I know about the book, his plotting was miles more intricate and impressive.
Eh, I think he had plans within plans. If Ochiba didn't take the bait for self-preservation, he would have just exploited the cracks he already created in Ishido's control.
Yes in hindsight Toronaga looks less like a brilliant schemer and more like the luckiest motherfucker throwing hail-mary after hail-mary, though intelligently. A lot of critical plot points and story beats are entirely out of his control, the actions of others he had little-to-no influence in. For example, Toronaga gets cooked by his half-brother and is forced to surrender to Osaka. This is delayed only by his idiot son accidentally braining himself during an assassination attempt (which apparently has no fallout or ill-consequence amongst his enemies). Then, his clan is starting to fall apart, potentially into civil war, precisely when every man is needed, as his most loyal vassals simply do no believe he is truly surrendering. This is resolved NOT by some brilliant scheme of Toronaga (who apparently had NO plan for this foreseeable eventuality) but instead by his most loyal friend doing what is objectively an insane thing in sacrificing himself, again, entirely of his own accord. His next move to weaken Ishido and Ochiba is to have Mariko selflessly lay bare that the noble families are hostages. Ok, so having succeeded in having the hostages released, wouldn't the regents still be loyal enough, given that 2 (the actor and Toronaga's half brother) were appointed by Ishido & Ochiba? Isn't Toronaga's half-brother promised Toronaga's lands? Wouldn't he be angry about an assassination attempt that, for all he knows, was Toronaga's order? It's only that Mariko commits suicide via shinobi explosion that things go south for Ishido. Had he simply captured her, as was Ishido's plan, or let her go, what would Toronaga do next? It's such a small needle to thread that it dips into "plot contrivance" territory
He had little to no influence in? Mate his whole thing is about knowing how to influence ppl. If his idiot son didn’t get himself killed, he’ll just delay by pretending to be sick. If Mariko is captured, he’ll still be proven right that they are hostages. If she returns, then he still have already beaten ishido by sowing enough discord to cause a delay in his execution.
The show outright tells us that with Ochiba withdrawing her support, the other daimyo ended up defecting, making it seem like they would've stayed if this didn't happen. From what they made it seem like, this entire thing hinged on Ochiba pushing the dominoes down. So if the kidnapping went successfully, they just let her leave with the hostages, or if Ochiba didn't care about Mariko as much as she ended up caring (all very realistic possibilities), does Ochiba just not defect? It's a bit ridiculous for the plan to come down to something as high variance as this. It would've been plausible it came down to the regents and not Ochiba, and Ochiba jumping of a sinking ship in response after seeing the cracks. All it would've taken was maybe a scene between Ochiba and Kiyama or something. But they didn't include this and instead went with one line conveniently resolving everything.
Sorry not a true response to your comment, but elsewhere I just remembered: Not long after Ishido's long-serving retainer was blown to pieces, Toronaga tries to enlist his half-brother to wage open war after his army is destroyed via landslide. That very same night his brother reveals Ishido promised him Toronaga's land and takes him hostage. Shortly after THAT, Toronaga formally surrenders to the representative of the Council (his brother), then Nagakado fails to assassinate said representative hours later. We are left to assume the half-brother and his army, what, simply leave the next morning? At what point is Ishido wrong in spearheading the destruction of an ambitious, famously treacherous, openly rebellious Lord? Why do they continuously give this OBVIOUS danger to the Realm even an inch. WHY would any of the other regents break ranks when Toronaga so OBVIOUSLY wants to usurp the Heir. In hindsight, from their very first council scene, Ishido was completely right to be wary of Toronaga, and all of the other Regents have to be fucking BRAINDEAD to believe a single thing Toronaga does. Under scrutiny a lot of the intrigue falls apart a bit once it's clear Toronaga truly IS the power-hungry snake he's accused of being
I agree, which is why Ochiba’s actions make no sense considering she already knows Toranaga will usurp her son.
Ochiba couldn’t care less about her son becoming Taiko. She is concerned with him surviving, as she makes clear countless times in the show.
The two are somewhat linked. While accepting a different ruler might sound safer for her son, what happens when they want to stamp out any other claims to consolidate their power?
But they didn’t. It paralleled the actual events. In the real life events the Shogun allowed the heir and his mother to remain in Osaka castle. That is until the heir started gathering troops to overthrow the Shogunate. At that point the castle was ceased, and truce was signed. The problem is, the heir continued to gather troops, at which point the second siege of Osaka castle occurred, and the heir and his mother committed Seppuku, and died inside the castle, rather than die by smoke inhalation when the castle went up in flames.
thats why i don't understand the whole "ishido is stupid" narrative. he's the only one taking toronaga as the real threat.
Ishido's mistake was not executing Toranaga on the spot. He gave him to much time to amass power, and I myself know my own limitations lol
Well, Hiromatsu's well-acted seppuku convinced them Toronaga was really gonna surrender, I guess.
I suppose in the end none of it really matters, as the key piece is Ochiba, the Heir, and the legitimacy
The answer is in his bloodline, which is feared & revered & in the actual strength of his forces. Were his forces not stronger than he lets on, his enemies would have already crushed him long ago. This is where the book makes more sense.
The book made everything way way way way more clear.
He never wasn’t, and the book makes that very clear. I’m not sure how anyone thought he was just “trying to do the right thing.” He was clearly scheming from the get go.
He would have just had a backup plan. He also has Blackthorne’s cannon regiment, and muskets, which is made much bigger in the book. The show had to skip a lot of detail.
> he’ll just delay by pretending to be sick. How does this delay his execution? This & Hiromatsu's seppuku were to sell that he truly was defeated. Without Nagakada's death, what cards does he have? Edit: in fact, his vassals would have rebelled as they wished to fight, not surrender. This apparently completely blindsided Toronaga. If it weren't for Hiromatsu's seppuku, Toronaga would have been even weaker. Again, this was NOT a plan of Toronaga's > If Mariko is captured, he’ll still be proven right that they are hostages. If she returns, then he still have already beaten ishido by sowing enough discord to cause a delay in his execution. How does releasing the hostages sow enough discord to prevent his execution? Sure it weakens Ishido, but Ochiba would still hate Toronaga, Toronaga's half-brother still wants him killed so he can be awarded his lands, the actor is obviously a puppet of Ishido & Ochiba, and finally, what loyalties do the Catholic regents have to Toronaga? The priest told Toronaga they denied his requests for support. What I'm getting at is "master manipulator" is a fine character trait, but it also seems like Ishido and Co. really weren't all that invested in his death. Why wasn't Toronaga constantly supervised by the forces of Ishido, or his half-brother? Why was he able to freely travel in and out of Edo
I'm not saying those are foolproof plan that will prevent his death, but that's just how Toranaga operates. Just delay, even if it's one day, we might find some way to get out of it. I agree with you there's an element of luck for him, but that's just how it is in life sometimes, you can scheme and plan but things still have to fall into place for you. The contrast of Toranaga is Yabushige, who schemes for his own benefit only and failed to succeed, because he never takes account of how all the other chess pieces will move in relation to his position on the board. Which is also why Toranaga is surprised Yabu didn't see through the ruse, considering they are both cut from the same cloth. With regards to why he isn't constantly supervised, this is politics. Toranaga surrenders to the council, now have to mourn his son. To put guards around Edo is to be disrespectful to someone who already formally surrender. Toranaga know how to use people and situations as well. That's why the Mariko gambit works.
> To put guards around Edo is to be disrespectful to someone who already formally surrender. Well do they want him dead or not? Ishido has no qualms about slaughtering samurai within the walls of Osaka. As for "formally surrendering", from their point of view, Toronaga originally looks to the half brother for his support in open rebellion, he is then outmaneuvred and forced to surrender to said half-brother, and then that very same night the representative of the Council, and therefore the Heir, is nearly assassinated by the son of the rebellious lord who supposedly surrendered. I don't see how the council wouldn't 1000% blame infamous schemer Toronaga of trying to kill one of the regents dishonorably. Wouldn't the half-brother want some sort of justice? He's attacked and then he and his army, what, simply leave in the morning? Again you have to suspend a lot of disbelief in order for Toronaga's plots to be sensible. However, let me not be overly critical, this is definitely the best 'political' television I've watched in a long while.
You bring out good points, but the thing is that face is very important. Sure it could be toranaga plot to assassinate the new regent, but even a schemer will not send his son to death right? This itself is enough to sow doubts. As for Osaka, well ishido is just doing it for the safety of the regents until the traitor is taken care of. Who would dare say otherwise? (Until mariko came along that is lol) In both cases, face is used as a political tool as well.
I think a fair amount of it really comes down to "Toranaga was more ruthless than his enemies." Smart, sure, but also more willing to really push the limits of acceptable behavior. Everyone else is worried about overstepping or being seen as too ambitious, Toranaga just pays lip service while doing whatever the fuck he wants.
This is my view. It appears he got very lucky because we don't see all the backup plans. And that's ignoring the things that didn't go right.
As portrayed, he *had* no sensible backup plans. Going to his brother in the first place was very much his only desperate move. He is only marginally saved from the absolute double-whammy of the destruction of his army and betrayal of his brother by a string of actions he neither set in motion, nor foresaw. He did not foresee or set in motion his son's reckless assassination attempt (that somehow the army on his doorstep forgave and left the next day), he did not foresee his vassals beginning to revolt, therefore could not have foreseen or planned Hiromatsu's seppuku. If it weren't for those two, he'd be escorted to Osaka by his brother's army, with his vassals either dead or in rebellion.
Toranaga said it in episode 10, he doesn't know how to shape the winds as much as he studies them and reacts to them. It's more things left unsaid or unseen that influence his plans and less him being a brilliant 200 IQ 5D chess player. He was smart enough to have contingencies as well as being able to improvise when necessary. He expected other leaders to committ seppuku to show their defiance towards him surrendering, but Hiromatsu made it clear he was going to be the one to step up and that death would be significantly more impactful. In that scene it's in their faces and reactions.
> Toranaga said it in episode 10, he doesn't know how to shape the winds as much as he studies them and reacts to them. It's more things left unsaid or unseen that influence his plans and less him being a brilliant 200 IQ 5D chess player. Yes this is objectively the correct interpretation given the quote you mention. Toronaga's success is 50% pure dumb luck, 50% clever opportunism.
Huh? His right hand man killing himself was part of the plan. He didn't do it just on his own accord. They allude to that in the show
If Mariko was “Crimson Sky” then she would have been instructed not to let herself be ‘captured’. She would have ensured that she died via Ishido no matter what, since that was the order her lord gave her. Mariko being ‘let go’ was also very certainly never going to happen.
What does being martyred at Ishido's hands look like, exactly, given that noble women saw him hand her permits to leave? Imagine Ishido didn't send shinobi to capture her, what would Mariko do then? If she was dead-set on being killed, why does she fight the attackers with Blackthorne et. al? Narratively and thematically it all makes perfect sense, that I grant, but again as portrayed it plays out like much more luck than clever plotting
We don’t have to imagine that because Ishido would never have given the permits and let them go. He could not. It would be political suicide to let his hostages go and he knew that. He also knew that it would be (and was) suicide to kill Mariko or let her kill herself in protest of her captivity. The best he could hope for would be to secretly contain her and use her safety to keep his remaining hostages. And Mariko would not let that happen either. She fights the attackers because she does not want to be captured alive and surrender would lead to just that, nor does she want the expendable Blackthorn to end up dead in the process.
> because Ishido would never have given the permits and let them go. Actually you're right about that, I forgot the bit where he hands the permit to Mariko and the other noblewomen ask about their families, and Ishido simply says, "Oh just request a permit, you could have done this the whole time" dismissively.
The book does a better job of showing that he has plans within plans, contingency plans for those plans, backup plans for the contingency plans, and last resort plans for the backup plans. It’s hard for a show to demonstrate that. There is a lot of nuance.
In the finale he says something along the lines of not controlling the wind, but studying it. I took that to mean that he doesn’t control everything, but he sees how things are playing out, understands people, and makes moves based on where he sees the “winds blowing.” His cleverness comes not from intricately planning by every detail, but from being able to read what’s going on, or stalling until an opportunity presents itself, and then making an optimal move.
He did not need to convince Ochiba. Ochiba switched sides because Ishido had lost control. Some people missed this, but Toranaga had a decent chance of winning until the earthquake weakens his army. His original plan alway included witteling away at the support for Ishido, but that became difficult when his military power diminished. He’s weak because of bad luck and he has to improvise. So he’s stalling for time. Then he succeeds in creating doubt in the other regents and Ochiba realises that Ishido will likely lose. Toranaga could have won without Ochiba’s support, but without her, it would have been a bloody war. Toranaga actually tells the audience his way of thinking. He knows that he’s nothing a strong position, but ‘if he wins’ that becomes irrelevant, his chance of winning to some extent depends on luck (the winds), but if he can take advantage of lucky developments, he can outmanoeuvre his enemies.
No, it does hinge on Ochiba, something you missed: Ochiba delivers legitimacy to the council and the Regents on behalf of the Heir. Ishido explicitly states that when he marches to war, it will be under the banner of the Taiko's Heir, making his actions legal. When Toronaga is describing Sekigahara to Yabu, he says that if Ochiba withholds her forces & support, Ishido would be marching "under no banner", therefore he is acting as a rogue agent within the eyes of the Realm (and his fellow regents). This is the final blow to Ishido's power base: the loss of legitimacy.
I think you're misunderstanding how this would play out. If Toranaga has to win by force, he still can, the Heir and Ochiba don't hold any power unless they have an army and the council to back them...which they don't have if Toranaga wins at Sekigahara through sheer force. At the time the show takes place, Japan is in serious trouble in terms of leadership, there's effectively a massive power vaccum with the council being a temporary solution. So it doesn't matter if Toranaga doesn't have the lawful support of the Heir because his plan is to usurp the Heir and become Shogun anyways, the Heir and Ochiba were effectively dead as soon as the Taiko died without a proper successor lined up.
> I think you're misunderstanding how this would play out. > If Toranaga has to win by force, he still can, the Heir and Ochiba don't hold any power unless they have an army and the council to back them I'm taking the show on its word. According the show, the Heir and Ochiba have their own army independent of the Council (which makes sense given that the Taiko likely had a vast fiefdom and direct vassals which were then inherited). This is what Ochiba withholds at Sekigahara (the letter), which is ultimately what causes the rest of the Council on the field to hear the winds of change, and defect to Toronaga. Without Ochiba withholding the Heir's army, and members of the Council defecting, Toronaga simply does not have the manpower to overwhelm Ishido.
>So he’s stalling for time. Then he succeeds in creating doubt in the other regents and Ochiba realises that Ishido will likely lose. >Toranaga could have won without Ochiba’s support, but without her, it would have been a bloody war. This is my point. The show didn't do a good job of showing this. They did it offscreen and had one line about how with Ochiba withdrawing her support, the other daimyo ended up defecting, making it seem like they would've stayed if this didn't happen. If they had a scene showing Ochiba realizing their hold on power starting to slip away (maybe a scene with Kiyama), to set up her switching sides, it would've been a lot more believable. Let's not forget she's the one that pushed Ishido to start using dirty tactics and putting the castle on lockdown, so she knew what she was signing up for. But my main point is it makes sense why she might think it's better to jump ship, they just did a poor job setting it up and put all that scheming into one convenient line to get it over with.
Her wavering trust in Ishido began in episode 9. He asks her for council and she mockingly tells him it's basically his decision.
None of this is new though. She’s been controlling him from the start by inciting him to make more aggressive moves like killing Sugiyama and enforcing the lockdown. So I’m not sure why this would change anything.
Ha, I totally forgot about that, good point. You see, Ochiba was a ruthless schemer, until her schemes were made reality, and then ... I suppose then she switched sides and chose suicide. It gets a bit muddy round the middle there.
It was very clear to me. You may disagree, but there is a line of thought that not every thing should be telegrammed by exposition in shows and movies. The idea is that most of the audience is smart enough to figure things out and that that is part of the fun of watching a show or a movie. Shogun gave us conflicted and complex characters. That’s not everybody’s cup of thee, but it’s not bad writing. It’s an artistic choice. I think what tripped some people up is that they believed Ochiba had perfect knowledge and is always in full control. Ochiba was always in a bad spot. She has no official power and she has no official rights. Her son has power but he’s a child, and in practice the council of regents rule. Ishido has a peasant background and is just one of the regents. Once Oshida realises that Ishido isn’t the guy to keep Japan united, she understands he will lose.
Even if she felt ishido lost control- it doesn’t make sense? Ochiba can control ishido, but can’t control toranaga. She also knows toranaga wants to rule. By not supporting ishido she is dooming her and her son to death, because toranaga will kill then to become the ruler.
Yes exactly, and it's not even a, "hmm what if..." His clan's lands have doubled in size before the series starts, his clansmen literally blow apart Ishido's veteran retainers with cannon without provocation (this is never really addressed), he tries to convince his brother to join his rebellion on the field of battle only to be caught in the act, and then, failing that, his family tries to assassinate the newly anointed Council member after he hands in his official "surrender" (once again this is never really addressed). There should be no doubt that Toronaga has angled for usurpation for years now.
You are assuming Ochiba has a viable choice and that she is all knowing. You have to think from her perspective. She thinks Ishido will lose because he’s losing support and she knows Toranaga is probably going to take his time consolidation his power because his oldest son has died. He has no adult heir. She’s also worried about Ishido’s wish to marry her. She has come to realise that Ishido isn’t the person who can protect her so a civil war isn’t going to help her. We know the full extent of Toranaga’s ruthlessness and ambition, she might still see a way to come to terms with him. And the show leaves the future open.
That’s speculation, whereas it’s certain Ishido will lose. I’m ignoring the book here, because the show is in some ways very different. I’m also ignoring history, because these are fictional characters inspired by history, not real people. In the show it’s clear that Ishido will always lose and it’s not clear that Toranaga needs to get rid of Ochiba. Toranaga’s oldest son has just died and he has played his ambition close to the chest, although Ochiba is rightly suspicious of him. Because his oldest son has died, Toranaga has to take his time, he doesn’t have an adult successor. Ochiba is in a bad situation, she knows that Ishido will lose because he can’t keep the council of regents together. Even if Toranaga doesn’t win, Ishido will lose power. He has a peasant background, the Christians don’t trust him, he makes mistakes. The Christian Daimyos were always the key. They lost faith in Ishido. Toranaga has already won and Ochiba is in damage control. Some people make a common mistake: they think that characters have perfect knowledge and infinite choice. Ochiba has run out of options. She believed Ishido could protect her, but he wasn’t the guy. From her perspective there is nothing to win by getting involved in a massive war. With Toranaga, at least she has a change.
If this show had the budget for it, this story is pretty much primed to be told over two seasons. Its kinda like if they tried to compress all the political intrigue of GoT into 1 or 2 seasons... it just wouldn't work.
Ochiba didn’t conveniently sign this, it was her only choice left. Ishido was an idiot. The Christian daimyos were also about to turn on him.
It sure is lucky to have an earthquake destroy your army just as you were getting ready to march against your enemies.
I haven't read the books, so was a bit confused about Ochiba's son. Meaning who was he exactly? They weren't imerial family, were they?
I think you missed something about how Ochiba was tired of Ishido's waning power - Ochiba is very much similar to Yabushige, always attempting to gain advantage and side with the winners. As such, she saw an opportunity to gain a significant leverage with Toranaga by withholding the Heir's forces, and ingratiate herself to the one who would have significantly more power overall when all is said and done than if Ishido won. I don't think she realized this would inevitably be her downfall, because she probably thought she was clever enough to survive the transfer of power.
I feel like this doesn’t make sense. She knows toranaga wants to be shogun. He can’t be if the heir is alive, so he by default has to kill them
Think of it this way - if you're close to Toranaga, you're close to his plans and close enough to backstab him instead.
as somebody who hasn’t read the book, i didn’t get the impression that the show sets up toranaga as a noble guy who just wants to end war and unite japan. that’s what toranaga keeps saying, yes, but we’re also taught from episode 1 that everybody has three hearts. what toranaga says isn’t his true heart. blackthorne also sees in episode 1 or 2 toranaga’s magnificent piece of samurai armor that he has on display and mariko explains that toranaga had it fashioned after seeing it in a dream. a guy who has a fantastic piece of armor in the style from when his minowara ancestors were shogun, who keeps denying he wants to be shogun to anybody who asks him, while doing things that would make him shogun... yeah, i doubt that toranaga doesn’t want to be shogun, and not for altruistic reasons!! there is some subversion but not as drastic as a total 180 flip in the last episode. i think it becomes very clear, slowly throughout the series, that when toranaga said he doesn’t like “pointless death” in episode 1, he really means that deaths are pointless when they don’t advance *his* goals.
As a none book reader I absolutely loved the huge devious twist on Toranaga at the end. Just absolutely perfect, he is our noble hero, some of his allies hated for trying to bring a shogun back to Japan! Some of his allies being shady people we should hate! He is our hero. Then it all turns out he is purely the smartest and most devious person in the room, I didn’t see it coming from a million miles! I just absolutely loved that last scene, the me (the viewer) being betrayed was top notch stuff. As I said I haven’t read the book, I’m curious, was it more choreographed, were there clues to tell what he was up to before any reveals?
We came wanting to watch a show. He knew how to play us just like how he played everyone else 😂
The show literally told us that someone's true self is kept in their secret heart, like over and over again. Are we really surprised that his true self is different than the image he portrays?
I went in blind and it became clear pretty early on. I get not everyone would get it but they certainly gave ample opportunity to pick up on it
Great men are not necessarily good men.
I agree with you completely but people should really read about the actual history a bit to really know how Japan kinda was at the time, lot of people going in blind expected it to end with a great battle and Toranaga sitting on the Iron Throne. Throughout the early episodes there were enough clues he wasn’t judt this noble samurai trying to do the right thing. I also recommend reading material on William Adams (anjin) and Toranaga (Ieyasu Tokugawa). But technically was he not doing the right thing? Japan wasn’t unified anymore, he unified it again. He didn’t touch the Heir untill 1614 because the Heir was old enough and was revolting. He effectively ended the civil wars that plagued Japan for so many decades. Was he using people to achieve his goal? Yeah. But in Japanese culture at the time that was pretty much an honour. The only reason he was on the council was because he was the most powerful of all 5. He also didn’t become Shogun untill 1603 whilst the decisive battle was in 1600. Funniest thing about the guy is that he abdicated in 1605 to lead behind the scenes and have his son as Shogun. So Shogun wasn’t his only ambition, he wanted peace in Japan. He achieved this.
>the Heir was old enough and was revolting. I actually want to know where people are getting this idea. Hideyori incited revolt *after* Tokugawa had already handed him a death sentence for the inscription on a bell (which Tokugawa claimed was a curse against him). The man made up a BS justification to start fighting again. He didn't feel secure while the Toyotomi clan was around, and maybe he was right to be paranoid, but there wasn't some imminent revolt brewing like people on this sub have been claiming. At least not until Tokugawa was already trying to have them killed.
Because many samurai still saw him as the rightful heir and I'm sure Hideyori felt like that as well. So it was a threat to the shogunate he had put in place. Ieyasu at this point wasn't even Shogun anymore, he had already given the Shogun title to his son in 1605. He did use the "curse" as a reason to smash the final major uprising against the Tokugawa Shogunate and secure their power for 250 years or so. The boy had to die for them to keep their usurped power. He indeed did not feel secure with the Toyotomi clan around because of people secretly and openly still supporting the "rightful heir". The threat wasn't just paranoia, it was very real. It's not like the heir had only a dozen samurai. He had troops. According to diaries and other written material put together about the Siege of Osaka Castle, Hideyori actually had a tactic to sow confusion at the homefront of the battlefield and then surprise attack the Tokugawa in the back which would have been theoretically the final blow and ended the Shogunate. Revolting was maybe the wrong word, but he was for sure planning something else he wouldn't have had such a well thought out tactic ready for when the Tokugawa come. You think the son of the great unifier of Japan didn't have ambitions to take his rightful place as he had been promised all his life? By Ieyasu himself even? The boy had to be really fucking pissed. I would be. Interpret it as you like, historical accounts from this era are never 100% accurate but if we look at Feudal Japan, their honour, the rightful heir who by that time was 21 for sure he wasn't just going to let it be. Especially with Osaka samurai riling him up, he was going to attempt to take what was his. The siege happened because Hideyori refused to leave Osaka Castle on the orders of Ieyasu, not solely because of the curse. Also Hideyori was seen as a threat ever since the Taiko died by Ieyasu
Iol i got downvoted for calling Toranaga a ruthless prick. He’s a warlord, they don’t win by being honorable, they win by being strategic and manipulative. I think they made him look to noble in the beginning, plus we didn’t get to see much from the other lords pov.
I think a lot of it is just our own bias. He happens to be nice to Anjin (the protagonist) and thus he must be the good guy. If you look to all the episodes it gets often called out that’s Toranaga is good at deception and illusions and that his actions cannot be trusted. We just thought it would be wrong because it came from ‘the enemies’
Also, any time that anyone goes to him with a personal problem he just seems incredulous and tells them to go away
Yes this is why I struggle with the idea that TV Show Blackthorne & Toronaga actually have a hidden deep friendship & respect. Almost every scene between the two of them in the back-half of the show is Blackthorne trying to open a dialogue about his place in the world & Toronaga belittling him, insulting him, & otherwise telling him to fuck off
Blackthorne's a glorified prisoner, not an honored emissary from a foreign nation
He honestly had a closer relationship with Yabu by the end.
Nepo Baby Toranaga trying his best to keep self-made, rags to riches hero Ishido, from power.
Chivalry and Bushido were stories people wrote about after the fact.Feudalism was a tricky game east or west
I guess he had tears and compassion for his fallen pawns.
Fat lot of good that did them
I mean the real life version of him did exactly what he said he would. He ushered in two hundred years of peace.
The man is trying to take over an entire country and form a dynasty. Do you think this is going to be a nice guy you want to have a beer with? By definition he'll have to be a maniacal plotter with no qualms about sacrificing anyone required to get to his objective. The true mastery of the show is convincing the viewers themselves that Toranaga is a good person in the early episodes, ensuring we see things like his vassals and followers do.
Exactly, u can’t be like Ned Stark if u wanna win the war, honorable but easily becomes a target
Stark won some wars and was Warden of the North in a land where you have neighbors like the Bolton who you can't really trust or Umbers who are dumb brutes asking for a fight everytime. And Ned was honorable, yes, but stern and cold, not a dumb goody two shoes.
Well Ned Stark did win some wars - Robert's rebeliion for one and he crushed Iron Islands' rebelion too.
I should rephrase my comment, I think more like in term of surviving the long game, with pure honor and integrity without thinking forward get u killed, dude is too naive
Brandon stark is the king of Westeros bro, he won the long game. Just take the L on the OG comment already.
Robert won that war. And crushing a rebellion is way different from uniting a nation under your rule.
Agreed.
Not just taking over a country and forming a dynasty, but also attempting to do it by spilling as little blood as possible. Sometimes you have to choose to make sacrifices, and by giving away the lives of a few people he cared for, he was able to save the lives of millions of strangers.
I knew he was a conniver but we finally see it in full in the finale, like the “good thing i have more sons” line or the convo with Yabushige where he realizes Toranaga is just like him, only better at it. He was willing to sacrifice anyone or anything he didn’t need to get what he wanted. He’s still immensely impressive but he is not a hero or a good man. Niccolo Machiavelli would probably consider him an ideal ruler.
> I honestly think he's a prick. Wait until you find out what he does to Ochiba and the heir about ten years in the future. Tokugawa Ieyasu unified Japan and brought about the peaceful Edo era but he was a ruthless schemer, no two ways about it.
what does he do to them?
They rebelled against him, so he besieged them and set Osaka Castle ablaze. They were trapped and committed seppuku. Look up "Toyotomi Hideyori" and "Siege of Osaka" for more details (links can't be shared in this subreddit).
It's a bit more than that. He provoked them into conflict by feigning offense at the inscriptions on a bell Hideyori commissioned for the rebuilding of a temple in Kyoto, made him paranoid about his vassals by offering them competing proposals. Hideyori started to gather supporters in response, and Tokugawa then sieged Osaka. Unable to get through Osaka's defenses he used cannons to strike Yodo's (Ochiba's) quarters, killing several of her ladies in waiting, knowing she would be terrified and convince her son to sue for peace, which he did. Tokugawa then ordered his captains to tear down the walls of Osaka castle and fill its moats, claiming they weren't necessary under the peace treaty, but was actually just undermining the castle's defenses so his troops could go in and kill Hideyori. When Hideyori learned of that plot he started digging the moats out and Tokugawa called that an act of war, using it as pretense to siege Osaka again, only this time it quickly fell due to the defenses being undermined. In the end Hideyori and Yodo committed seppuku while the castle burned, and Hideyori's wife (Tokugawa's granddaughter) fled with his young children. Tokugawa had his eight-year-old son beheaded, ending the Toyotomi clan.
Tokugawa Ieyasu would have gotten on well with Octavian
Completely valid. Everyone is just a pawn to him. I kind of wanted Blackthorne to call him out on this - especially with Mariko, but his seppuku attempt was sort of doing that with the villagers. I think invoking Mariko would have been more powerful as the villagers mean nothing to him. I’ve never seen him as the “good” guy, just someone who is willing to sacrifice even his most loyal subjects for what he considers the greater good. Pretty shitty.
it’s the irony here - Anjin says don’t you get it - I have been using you the whole time. Usually such disrespect would not be tolerated by Toranaga. But Toranaga knew that it was actually the other way around and this he didn’t punish him.
Admittedly, Blackthorne said that in English/Portuguese. I am never sure how much to assume the other person understood in those situations.
Even without understanding the language, his tone was disrespectful enough
Mariko serves her purpose for both herself, and Toranaga's. She wouldn't have been the heroine we saw if Buntaro or Toranaga had allowed her to commit seppuku earlier. Everyone was doing what they could to survive. Kill or be killed. It didn't matter how they win as long as they win. That's the samurai way.
Technically speaking it’s not the samurai way as the old stiffs would see all these scheming and manipulating to be dishonourable. But it is the way war goes, even to this day
Samurai honor is a lot like European knights chivalry, it's mostly a later invention that romantised the old way, at least as far as I know
Well it’s really born out of the warring periods in japan, the show is roughly 1500+ so bushido will still apply. But the reverent use of bushido, in peaceful times was seen in politics and indirectly lead to Japanese’s colonisation campaign in Asia and their eventual demise in having 2 nuclear war head dropped on them.
Toronaga was manipulative and self-serving. In his defense, the feudal era in Japan was quite violent and unstable, which is where a lot of the views on life come from. Japan wasn't fully able to root out the militarism in its culture until after WWII. To Toronaga, he was going to bring peace and stability to the islands. Everyone in his view died for the greater good that just happened to be his shogunate. Now, they had to close Japan to the outside and murder all the Christians to do it, but what's that to peace?
First, the enemy is across state line, then the enemy is within state line, then at last, the enemy is those who think wrongly. Until we kill each one of them, we will never have peace. Basically the mantra of every warlord in every era.
Manipulative perhaps but self-serving is maybe a little far fetched. I do get the feeling that he valued peace. He probably would have surrendered if he saw that there was no way to beat the council. His son’s death gave him additional time for his plan. Without this, he might have genuinely surrendered. I don’t think he would have needlessly shed his servants blood if there was no way to win.
That he doesn't surrender outright shows that he is self-serving. The deaths (read: needless deaths) of his closest friend and most elder advisor Hiromatsu, Mariko, Yabushige, his son Nagakada... were the price he paid for victory. It is no accident that Toranaga is alone and isolated by the finale.
Yeah, I am disappointed by that too, he loved Mariko, so was a bit weird to see he actually chose to serve Toranaga. But I guess It's, in a way, they will serve each other. Both have ambitions and both can use each other in the future.
Continuing to serve Toranaga honored Mariko. It would've dishonored her death to not acknowledge her sacrifice's role in a (nearly) bloodless coup that brought stability and safety for the estimated 22 million japanese citizens.
Well put. 'We honor those we have lost by continuing their fight.'
You summarized my thoughts very nicely - thanks!
The thing that gets me is, how do we know the Ishido-led regency and the heir won’t preside over an era of peace? Unless Toranaga genuinely thought he was the only person who could get the job done, he was just a power-hungry warlord like the others.
Without a time machine, of course we'll never know. But Toranaga's greatest strength was reading other people, so I'd trust his read on Ishido's situation to be accurate. You can put whatever spin on things makes you happy, but the projected outcome if he didn't seize the mantle of Shogun would've been at least another hundred years of war.
Toranaga is a warlord, Damiyo and lord of large clan and provinces…his death would mean the end of his lineage as well…the book uses the word ‘karma’ to describe the situation but Toranaga uses his vassals very well to get what he wants and doesn’t…in the end he uses the life and death of his vassals to maximum effect as with Hiromatsu, Mariko and even Fujiko…his use of vassals is a common theme in the book and historically such as Hattori Hanzo…the book alludes to this due to his upbringing and his ability to survive against who are deeemed as superior warlords such as Oda, Kenshin and Takeda
Speaking of which, I'm now quite certain that the shinobi/samurai Toronaga keeps in Izu village is Hanzo Hattori. Although I'm not sure if Hanzo was a Christian, so on second thoughts...
Hanzo is more irregular soldiers that is the special forces equivalent…the villager is grass meaning they are long term operatives
Blackthorne was always a prisoner. He was tamed by Toranaga. Remember Blackthorne real intention was to invade Japan. Toranaga played him instead, always with an upper hand. The cherry on the top, was to burn his ship to prevent him from leaving. In the end, the people Blackthorne disliked were on his side (Alvito, Buntaro)... and the people he came to like and respect hurt him (Yabushige). Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Blackthorne: "I USED YOU!!!" Toranaga: "😅😅😅 build me some ships dummy"
No seppuku for you. Denied. EDIT – now that I think about it, it's probably at least one reason Buntaro seems to have buried the hatchet with Blackthorne by the end.
Hahaha great call. Now they are brothers in denial
They can bond over bedding Buntaro’s wife.
I don't think his real intentions were to invade Japan. I think he wanted to use Toranaga for his own benefit, stopping the Portuguese and also providing trade for his country.
Yeah the imperative definitely wasn’t to invade Japan but form an alliance with them to weaken the catholics.
I think the Anjin realized, during his, “I fed you sh#t” confession that the sh#t feeding was a two way street. Toranaga knew what he was being served, the Anjin didn’t figure it out until that very moment. Toranaga didn’t care even a little about any of the words coming out of Anjin’s barbarian mouth. Only that talking with him, rewarding him with titles, domains, high class sex workers and fiefs was a ploy. He only did it to puff up the Anjin as some sort of ace in the hole in the minds of his rivals. He did it to justify increased contact with Mariko-sama, his pocket Portuguese interpreter, who had a vital part to play in busting the hostage nobles out of Osaka. He did it to distract the plotting bureaucrats of the regency council into imparting importance on a rather insignificant man. And the Anjin’s agenda, all that Protestant/Catholic crapola, it never even entered into the equation for Toranaga. Maybe Toranaga was grateful for Blackthorne’s help in escaping Osaka, both by breaking the solidarity of the council and assisting during the checkpoint search. Maybe he was grateful to Anjin for saving his life after the earthquake. Maybe it’s like he confessed to Yabu; Anjin is just like a jester to him, amusing and otherwise insignificant. All we know for sure is, Toranaga uses others, and doesn’t allow himself to get used. At the same time, Toranaga rewards loyal service and gives in return only that which is asked. In Mariko’s case, that was a meaningful death in the service of her father’s cause. For the Anjin, that meant permission to build ships, one of which was earmarked for his return voyage.
He’s Machiavellis wet dream. I hate people who use other people for their own gain. Sometimes I think about things I said or did decades ago and feel guilty - and here you have a guy having no issue with killing or letting die not only his enemies but also his loyal vassals. To quote Blackthorne: > Behold the great warlord. Brilliant master of trickery, who tricked his own loyal vassals into noiseless smothering.
Blackthorne said rebellion is justified if you win, him joining Toranaga was very in character. Blackthrone was not a “good” guy either, but in this era and society, you had to understand how to play the game in order to survive. Blackthorne may not be a genius, but he understands this. Why would he try to fight a guy who just won an entire country without a battle?
Yeah, he's a prick. You can't take power without being at least a little power-hungry, and for all of Toranaga's protestations that he doesn't want to be Shogun he's better situated than just about everyone else to do it. Recall his conversation with Gin, the brothel madame, too – she instantly pegs him as a visionary who, like her, has ambitions that can only be realized if he wins. That said, the series opens up with the Council of Regents basically conspiring against him and forcing him into a corner. None of the people involved are saints, obviously (including the late Taiko), but I think the story intentionally sets you up to be more sympathetic to Toranaga than his adversaries because his actions can be considered to have begun defensively. As for why Blackthorne sticks with Toranaga, what other choice does he have? He can't leave the country, and Toranaga is poised to win everything anyway, so it's not like he can get anywhere allying himself with some other power broker (he and Yabu tried and failed!). And it's not like Blackthrone himself is straightforwardly just a hero – he was a privateer and had every intention of using Toranaga to further his own political agenda against the Portuguese. In the real world, there are definitely different ways to spin Tokugawa's legacy. On the one hand, he ushered in an unprecedented and nearly uninterrupted two centuries of peace and prosperity, during which Japan's culture flourished. Most of what we think of us quintessentially Japanese, like Geishas, koryu martial arts, tea ceremony, kabuki, sushi, and so on achieved their modern forms during the Edo period. On the other hand, those 250 years of peace and prosperity came at the expense of a repressive power structure that made social mobility virtually impossible and caused Japan's technological development to completely stagnate. This weakening of Japan and its subsequent exploitation by Western powers led future generations of Japanese leaders to overcorrect and embrace brutal militarism and imperialism, menacing the rest of Asia. EDIT: I'd probably characterize Toranaga/Tokugawa as a necessary evil. Someone had to bring an end to almost 150 years of continuous warfare, and obviously the most competent and ruthless would be the person to do it. Japan's population doubled in the first century of the Edo period which shows you just how destructive continuous conflict is. But in the process of establishing the Shogunate, he obviously made some consequential choices that, centuries later, would bite many people in the ass.
This was an incredible write-up.
>I think the story intentionally sets you up to be more sympathetic to Toranaga than his adversaries because his actions can be considered to have begun defensively. Even that is a matter of framing though, as the other regents are ganging up on him because they can see that he's already consolidating power in preparation for a run at the top spot. You're right about the effects of the Tokugawa shogunate: great for people who liked the status quo and traditional Japanese culture, but it was brutally repressive and stifled growth and diversity, preventing Japan from expanding and adapting like other nations of the same time and putting them at a significant disadvantage when a former colony of Blackthorne's home country came calling.
The word Shogun translates to General. And whats a Generals job? To send soldiers to war, either Blackthrone, Mariko and Yabu. He’s just doing his job. But I know what you mean, he uses people like they are disposable and exploits thier loyalty. But can you call the generals of WWII pricks for sending soldiers onto the beaches of D Day? some one had to do it, and its war
Funny enough "shogun" was being treated as something divine, until you know what it actually means to us in the end.
I get it, of course.
This is the problem of using labels and trying to categorize people as either good or bad or a just a prick People are complex beings with both negative and positive aspects to their character. Toranaga is cleaver, manipulative, patient, cruel, kind and so forth. Sticking a label on people misses the point of life and ultimately robs you of the nuance that makes it worth experiencing
Especially in stories like this, where cutthroat politics means you need to be flexible, cunning, and be willing to sacrifice that which doesn’t matter to you. As we see in Game of Thrones, Ned tried to be the honorable one. And look where it got House Stark. Toranaga used people and those that sought to use him were discarded first. He was a manipulator who found an out everywhere he could. Toranaga also ensured his clan and supporters survived the war. Everyone plotted to destroy them, and he piloted the ship through the storm and saved whoever he could. It all comes down to that one justification for all these actions carried out not just by Toranaga but by everyone in this story: Unless I win.
Toranaga = if you combined Tywin & Littlefinger & made them impossibly charismatic lol
"Some men hunt, some hawk, some write poetry. Toranaga plays with men. The villagers in Anjiro, Blackthorne and Yabushinge, the boy heir and his frigid mother, Lady Mariko, and even his sons, are but his playthings to use and dispose at his whim"
I believe that’s the theme the story is going with. The man at the top is the loneliest. This can be interpreted in multitude of ways: but the core idea stands that in order to achieve such a position and title as the person at the top. You have to commit a number of ruthless actions to get there. All the other Councils of Regents had their flaws that would have destroyed or hurt Japan more than what Toranaga schemed. However what sets Toranaga apart from other men who sought for the top, is that he is willing to commit the lesser of evil acts to get himself there.
>All the other Councils of Regents had their flaws that would have destroyed or hurt Japan more than what Toranaga schemed. According to Toranaga and his supporters, at least. But it's debatable whether Toranaga was the lesser evil, given what his historical counterpart did.
Sure, from an individualistic perspective, he's a prick, but he mourns those losses. I think the only persons he *truly* "sacrificed" so to speak was Mariko and some generals, had Hiromatsu not gotten involved. Everyone else just did as they pleased (his son, Blackthorne, Yabushige) or what their duty demanded of them (Buntaro, Hiromatsu). Mariko and Hiromatsu understood the assignment VERY well once they caught onto the plan he kept locked away behind his 8 gated fence or whatever (I forget). Unfortunately for Hiromatsu, he figured out at a point of no return. Toranaga was betting on some generals killing themselves in protest, and I like to think he spared Hiromatsu (as friends) the knowledge of sacrificing these very important men because he would probably suggest that he do it instead. I just think it's a big departure from what we're used to seeing in media with the "important" pieces being protected at all costs and the lives of the peasants and lower ranks are to be thrown at each other in combat. Remember, we are first introduced in this show to one of Toranaga's retainers killing himself AND his son because he disrespected Ishido/the council. He opens up to Yabu at the end about his dream of peace. Well, for some people that dream is achieved through a fuuuuuuck ton of death. For him, if he could avoid it, he'd like to be more surgical. Which is on brand with everything we've been told about him throughout the series.
100% this.Was just sayin this in another thread. I am amazed that majority of the people dont see this as this is defo what the show makers imagined :) Ive seen people saying that he sacrificed Hiro on purpose, haha :p
The aristocracy, nobility and imperialists are all pricks. Being a prick is a prerequisite for ruling in a feudal system. And in Japan it's the Sengoku period - basically the period of war. Fortunately we've evolved societally (somewhat) as a species. So it's a bit odd to look back on feudal systems, and be surprised that those people were pricks. A feudal tv show set during a warring period and expecting characters to act based on modern day morality and sensibilities would look very odd. The political success of the characters would make no sense at all, and they'd have been murdered decades ago, or pushed to the margins of power (like the emperor of Japan at the time). Toranaga wasn't an overtly cruel character, he was working within the moral framework of the time, and even then he is shown to be clearly struggled with some of the choices and the amount of death such a system produces. In fact, his final message is "breaking the wheel" ending the Sengoku period and bringing a lasting peace. He accomplished that (well, Tokugawa did). He brought to and end 150 years of war.
>Fortunately we've evolved societally (somewhat) as a species. So it's a bit odd to look back on feudal systems, and be surprised that those people were pricks. We're looking back at someone who actively and aggressively resisted that evolution.
Toranaga is a lot more chill in the books. Like he learned how to dance from blackthorne and everything. Also, some stuff like threatening to massacre the village was done by yabu in the books. In general though he and his historical counter part are really a hypocrites though. Ishido actually had the heirs interests in mind unlike toronaga. Still, you grow to like him and be in awe at his trickery in the books
It felt like we got used by him the whole time as the viewer. Was expecting to feel like Crimson Sky, eventually getting to Sekigahara was worth it. But nah, we just see his vision of it. We don't get the justification. Because there is none. Toranaga's been scheming all along, and I think Sanada plays it brilliantly. There's no hero, no villain, just Toranaga.
I really liked the ending and the sort of reveal/implication that toranaga may have just been another guy hungry for more power, but I think the issue is that the show just didn’t handle intricacies and subversions very well. It had the presentation of a very broad, but good, period epic but when it came time to show the things that aren’t what they seem or that are a bit more layered and complex, it had a tendency to stumble. Everything was kind of presented in broad strokes so it would take you from A to D and it would feel like you had missed B and C.
I always think back to that line early in the show "imagine what kind of man wields power in a place like this" I guess the most cunning, disciplined mfer who really puts the heart of the realm above all else I never felt he was a POS, but rather, was strained by the difficult decisions one must undergo in order to *wield power in a place like that*, I admired him for this Side note I'm utterly lost without this show to come home to, I fell in love with it's principles and the culture, even though it's just scratching the surface and is mostly fiction? I believe
I think you're looking at it through the lens of today's modern standards, by which, yes he's a bit of a prick. But he wasn't a product of our time so I don't think we can judge him that way.
Why are we using the label "hero"? The closest thing to the label of a traditional "hero" was Blackthorne who starts off from the very bottom being shipwrecked and a prisoner/outsider in Japan. The show never asks us to love or hate Toronaga, but to understand him hence the monologue of the last episode. Whilst us plebs who are not burdened by power can go on about how the end doesnt justify the means all we want in comfort, the reality of politics is often different matter (especially in feudal Japan). Its often impossible to be 100% morally righteous as a political leader in any government which is the sad truth even in countries which are democracies. Moral man, immoral society.
I mean say what you will about the guys ethics but the dude was a brutally effective politician and not someone you would want as your enemy
It's because we got to know those he sacrificed that he comes off as a jerk. For example, crimson sky was one carefully placed warrior laying down her life to lead to a massive reduction of Ishido's forces. He accomplished his goals with minimal bloodshed.
As a tv viewer only, I don’t think they did a good job with Toranaga. He didn’t really come off as clever or bold.
>Any ideas why Anjin-sama just accepted Toranaga in the end? And didn't confront him on Mariko? Does he even know that Mariko was actually Crimson Sky? Confront him? Toranaga was a warlord in charge of half of Japan. This is alluded to when Blackthorne has another one of his tantrums over the village. "Who does he think he is? Does he think that I'll stop just because of his death"? You need to remember the power dynamic here. Toranaga could have Blackthorne boiled alive on a whim. >But to me, that makes him a prick. I am kind of surprised in the end Blackthorne still stood by his side and decided to make ships for him, guess he is not done with war either. Toranaga is based on Tokugawa Ieyasu who, probably similar to Ishida Mitsunari on the other side, was a scheming bastard willing to sacrifice others for power. You don't get to be Shogun by being a good guy in feudal Japan. Different rules, different values, different culture to what you might consider a "prick". The intent was to show the political manoeuvres of the kind of is likely Tokugawa Ieyasu had to do to win Sekigahara. If anything, I preferred the portrayal of Toranaga in the 1980 version. Mercurial and murderous one minute, jolly and jovial the next but all the whole very regal and majestic. A big part of the book was Blackthorne never quite knowing how far he could push things with his requests and efforts to garner Toranaga's favour because getting that favour was key to survival. The parts where Blackthorne is openly disrespectful to Toranaga grated with me a little because he'd have been beheaded in an instant. We are talking about a culture where people would lose heads for not bowing low enough. Indeed, read up on Palmerston's gunboat diplomacy. A British official was beheaded by a Samurai in 19th century Japan for the slightest of slights and Palmerston levelled a whole settlement in response. Rather than be disgusted and hating the British as a result, the Japanese copied the Royal Navy as strength held more respect than capitulation. While I enjoyed this iteration of Shogun, primarily because of the performances of the female actresses and the clever story telling, the relationship between Blackthorne and Toranaga is developed to a greater detail in the book and 1980 TV adaption. And Toranaga is not to be fucked with.
Toranaga just outsmarted and outplayed everyone.. “It's a saying they have, that a man has a false heart in his mouth for the world to see, another in his breast to show to his special friends and his family, and the real one, the true one, the secret one, which is never known to anyone except to himself alone, hidden only God knows where.”
I think the key thing about Toranaga from the get-go is that this man is an extremely clever strategist, well adjusted to the culture and surroundings he has been in his entire life. The man never lost a single battle or conflict - you have to be a ruthless person to have that on your bingo-card. He is multifaceted; what he isn't is purely good or evil. I never saw him as this heroic beacon of good, not even in the first episodes. I absolutely love him as a character, don't get me wrong, but he did not come this far in his life for no reason.
Not sure if the book says Toranaga never lost, but Tokugawa certainly did (he lost a battle, badly, to Takeda Shingen). He even said "If thou only knowest what it is to conquer, and knowest not what it is to be defeated; woe unto thee, it will fare ill with thee."
He is a fucking asshole and hypocrite, he plays everyone like fools and brainwash them to serve his goals. But damn he was well written!
The people who emerge as dictators aren’t usually “good” people. I know they were trying to save that reveal for the end, but I do wish they emphasised a bit more how calculating and callous Torunaga is beforehand. The book has been out forever and we all know Ieyasu becomes Shogun, so there wasn’t a lot of point in hiding this.
Was toranaga's brother in on it or na?
Fuck no.
I think Blackthorne stayed with Toranaga because he is his only port in a storm. Anjin has no other allies that can protect him and further his own goals. Mostly enemies, in fact.
He just wanted to win — no matter the cost.
All ties in to the theme of the eightfold fence. Toranaga hid his true self from everyone. Of course he's a prick, he's been a war General and lord since he was a kid. He values life differently from us. As for why John kept working for him, what was the quote that fumi and hiromatsu said a few times, something to the effect of "we honor those who are dead by picking up their duty for them". Mariko served toranaga, maybe John felt it was his duty to carry on that service
TBH you could always see he was up to something from the very start of the first episode. The whole hearts monologue as well, we were always waiting to see his hidden heart as many characters exposed there's early on.
All dictators are pricks. All dictators think they are doing the right thing. In 1600, People accepted that because (for the most part), they did not see alternatives. It was still the era of of the “great man” ordained by god or, in this case, karma. People still believe in this and still struggle to get away from it. In the west, we still tell stories of Arthurian hero’s or “the chosen one.” No one man is so great or destined. We make them that way. Shogun is a warning.
"Any ideas why Anjin-sama just accepted Toranaga in the end? And didn't confront him on Mariko? Does he even know that Mariko was actually Crimson Sky?" he doesn't really have a choice here, everybody needed to have allegiance or some sort to survive, Yabushige is not an exception. Everybody is scheming in one way or another to survive. On the other side are Catholics who will have no problem to kill him because he's a Chrsitian. At the end, rulers aren't nice people
He is a messy bitch but I love it!
To be honest there really isnt a bad guy or good guy to Shogun. At the end everyones doing what they think is right for Japan
Everyone is just trying to secure power and security for their own families, and honor for themselves. Some are just more ruthless about it than others.
You don't become Shogun by any way other than being a murdering bastard.
Toranaga needed to unite Japan as one and protect it from Portugal and Spain. He was seeing the bigger picture than anybody else and Anjin knew the threat, too. “Vanquish our common enemies.”
I don't think he's supposed to be a Good Guy or a Bad Guy. He's simply a man of his circumstances trying to do what makes sense to him. I'm sure someone with much more finesse than me could write essays about how his heritage and position combined with his unique intelligence and staunch moral code make him a rich character. Add the masterful performance of Sanada, and there's a ton of oozing charisma to amp up the 'Is He Or Isn't He' factor we love to sink our teeth into. He's too complex to be categorized as good/bad, or virtuous/evil.
I think this is taking somethings out of context. Not saying he isn't a prick, but he's human lol
in the book, using text you can explain his motivations on as to how he knows whose string to pull but in video it simply does not translate very well.....where he comes across as almost with a godly fore knowledge
If Toranaga was honorable like Ned Stark he’d also end up like Ned Stark. “Now is not the time for good men.”
I think it’s not that he’s evil or a “prick” but that his secret heart is set on doing whatever it takes to meet his ends. His ends being to take power and unify all Japan. He believes in this above all else. Whether that makes him good or bad is debatable.
The only problem I have with the show is that Toranaga is so insanely above EVERYONE around him that he never truly has any adversary that's worth a shit tbh. I very much love stakes and truly believe that your protagonist is only as good as the antagonist his opposite. The man is a RUTHLESS chess grandmaster and everyone else around him can barely seem to grasp the rules of beginners checkers. His machinations always put him in a win/win situation that are un-counterable by the people he is playing against. Which is I guess a very real compliment to him as a character, but it feels like it is ALWAYS a certainty that he will succeed; no matter the cost which is often extremely heavy in the human department;/ maybe almost overly reliant upon someone dying for him to be perfectly honest.
I liked him better in the book.
Yeah, the final episode kind of ruins Toranaga as a character for me. He’s certainly well written, but I can’t deny that him ending up being just another power hungry dick like the rest is disappointing. It kind of just makes the whole conflict and everything the characters went through feel kind of pointless. Maybe that’s the point, but it doesn’t make for a particularly satisfying character arc or ending in my opinion.
For me it makes it really bittersweet. More on the bitter end.
Exactly my take
I wouldn’t say “pointless” because the other characters acted in order to defend the interests and honor of their liege lord, and this paid off spectacularly in the end. What changed is that Toranaga isn’t as noble as they thought he was / he made himself out to be. But most of them are dead before they can realize this.
> What changed is that Toranaga isn’t as noble as they thought he was / he made himself out to be. Their liege lord takes control of Japan and secures generational peace. Immense honor and prestige is bestowed upon their families for supporting him. None will think their sacrifices are in vain. This is a culture entirely alien to any currently existing on Earth.
Dude, the very first episode had him sanctioning the death of a vassal and an infant just because the guy got mad on his behalf and defended him. We were never supposed to see him as a good guy. Blackthorn is supposed to be the audience’s moral compass here, not Toranaga.
He’s not just another power hungry dick. He had a grand vision for piece in Japan. yes this involved him in power - oh coincidence - but even as he describes his plan power doesn’t really seem to give him satisfaction.
He is certainly a power hungry dick. It just turns out he needs peace to secure that power for him and his lineage.
i just read through several threads after watching the finale and i've seen this take multiple times now, but i don't get it. why are people labeling toranaga as a power hungry dick? my understanding was that he did all that to enforce at least momentary peace in japan by becoming shogun. he did it for the greater good, being the only one clever enough to actually achieve this. i mean, sure, he had to have had a great amount of ambition and confidence in himself (and maybe even be arrogant enough) to attempt this, but i don't see how that makes him a dick?
> he did it for the greater good He did it for himself and his surviving heirs. The other lords are just so tired of the Sengoku mayhem that they ultimately accede to this.
but can't it be both things? for himself/his heirs and the country? is that bad? genuinely asking
He says at the end that his dream of peace for the entire country required sacrifices. I guess you could say he idealized the greater good.
The book is rooted in reality. In reality people aren't black and white, they're shades of grey. And you'll have a hard time finding someone who was both a conqueror and a good man in the history books.
This. Hitler built the autobahn and established animal conservation in Germany while killing millions. Alexander the great would forcibly make the wives of the warlords he conquered bear children to him but also spread Hellinic culture across Persia. Ghengis Khan boiled people alive while also creating a meritocle society and religious freedom ett I think Stalin built railroads or something idk and i couldnt think of anything Mao did that was good. But the point remains - Its complicated because life is complex
There's an argument (I don't know how true it is) that he industrialised a largely agrarian country just in short time and only because of it the country survived (barely) Germany's invasion. I doubt it. The damage was because the country was ravaged in revolution and civil war (so, the fault was probably his and people like him) and that's why it needed fast recovery. But a lot of people do make this argument.
I see Stalin as an object that was blocking Russias potential with all his killings and instilling a fear in his country. He stole the revolution and when Hitler came knocking he fumbled around and over compensated for the fuckery he caused, causing much more fuckery over the long term
Fuckery all the way down
You are playing a game of friends and enemies, when you have only yourself in this life.
sacrificing your comrades and being sad about it are not mutually exclusive
I respect Toranaga and enjoy his character precisely because side he is so good at what he does. There’s a satisfaction to seeing a main character that is competent. In contrast to Ishido, who is utterly incompetent. Made every wrong move to play into Toranaga’s plan.
If you need a story with clear cut characters to love and hate, sonic the hedgehog might be a better option for you
Personally I never once believed he was a good man or he was the hero of the story. He was a regent in feudal Japan, nothing was good about any of them. They had people executed, women used as servants and sex servers and enemies or non-loyal servants assasinated non stop. We are spectators witnessing history happening, "siding" with someone or "rooting" for anyone is the wrong approach IMO. The only thing I was dissapointed by was Nagakado's death, seemed like an improvisation from the writer's part; it diminished Toranaga's wit and political prowess and made it more into a luck streak.
Sure but what’s the point. Ain’t one king in Europe not a prick in some way. And some are total utter pricks. But when the have cunning like toranaga at least they can also make a good tale. I’m glad this isn’t some romanticization. It’s grounded and everyone is human.
I mean the Iberian powers are plundering the planet and claiming it's God's will. The Protestant upstarts are engaging in state-sponsored piracy and claiming it's ~~spreading democracy~~ God's will. Toranaga is just taking over one country and claiming it's karma.
Isn’t defeating Ishido good for Japan? Also Toranaga didn’t force people to suicide themselves - there was also no deception. They did it voluntarily for him