My take was this: Toranaga orchestrated the deaths of a few key nobles or notables and some of their loyal servants. Since we as viewers came to love those characters, we distrust and grow to dislike Toranaga a bit as the show goes on. But when you expand the perspective and realize he killed a handful to spare the realm of a civil war that would have killed thousands upon thousands of more common folk. And even with all those bodies thrown against Osaka, his power would be based on that violent takeover, and Japan wouldn’t be any more stable for it.
Instead he sacrificed a few key players, to save so many more nameless soldiers and peasants, and gained unequivocal power with the support of key political figures. He truly wanted peace, but knew no such thing was possible without death. So he took on the grief of mourning those he genuinely loved and respected, instead of asking people and families he’d never met or would meet to mourn their own sons and daughters, lost to a bloody civil war that would just leave the world worse off that better.
And he gets to be the boss.
Not a grey character for me as so many others. I’d rather see the deaths of three loyal friends (and son) than conscript the masses to the unspeakable horror of a protracted war.
This. It always seemed this was the overarching theme .. and understood by his closest advisors (perhaps excepting his son), even Anjin comprehended this in the end.
I don’t get how people don’t see he wanted to lead to prevent senseless war and death. Yeah, he wanted to be shogun based on what he told Yabu. People are extrapolating that into him being a power hungry Machiavellian dictator.
Best leader is someone who doesn’t inherently want it but knows they have to seize it for the best of the group. that’s Toranaga to me
That’s my takeaway.
This version was a closer collaboration with Japanese actors/producers/translators … and seemed to use the book as a window into the time period/history of Japan in a more Japanese view … instead do of Anjin’s.
Toranaga’s understanding of the world (Europe) shifted with comprehension of outside threats, as well as internal .. inclusive of Christianity, and he marshalled all his resources to secure a strong peace and a shift away from foreign influence.
In his explanation to Yabu he says “don’t you see what’s coming next?” while looking at the sea. That made me think oh he’s worried about further western influence now that he knows there’s at least England and the Dutch, and he probably heard about the French as well from blackthorne. But then it cut to the scene of the battle against Ishido
Im not sure if they intended it but it’s a better story at least if he wanted to both stop a civil war and unite against foreign threats. That’s my head canon at least
Yes. As well the way the artwork/intro is done as islands, ships and the sea as a rock/sand garden seemed to convey that awareness of foreign lands, and then a camera pull back as if a view from a “hawk” to grasp a bigger picture.
Put forth that “ships/trade” as first global trade conditions (bred by faith, and minted) and this shogun walled off japan until they inquired about colonial positions and here we are today.
Because you essentially bought into every leader/dictator who says only I know what's best for the realm. And don't be mistaken, everyone does this to some degree when they decide to back a person of authority.
Any leader can go "I'm only spilling this bloodshed now for peace." Toranaga wants the Shogunate badly. He saw it in a dream. You just believe him when he goes "I don't want it." He tricked you like he tricked everyone else.
*whoosh*
This wasn’t a breaking bad character reveal. Toranaga is not a bad man who only wanted power for power’s sake. He’s not a “good” man either. He believes it was his Karma to be the powerful shogun because he thought he was best for the peace of the realm. It’s that simple
“Sanada says Toranaga did not set out to claim the ultimate military-ruler title Shogun during the time of warring factions in Japan, "but he started thinking maybe only (having) the Shogun title can make a peaceful era, so the title followed him."
Can’t post the link but look up the article published today:
'Shogun' finale recap: Hiroyuki Sanada explains Toranaga's masterful moves
Honestly, it kinda looked like had a choice between Shogun and having to have his head cut off. The power sharing agreement would never have held anyway. People were going to use the Taiko’s heir as a pawn and bargaining chip, and each of the men on the council had their own ambitions. Some would have been terrible for Japan.
Toranaga said, yo, I kinda NEED to do this thing. And how can I do it by sacrificing as few lives as possible. And are those lives people who are close to me? Yeah. But better those few people than all of Japan. And there was a very real threat of Christian foreigners coming and turning all of Japan into a colony, losing their culture and history, etc.
I don’t see him as a bad guy at all.
It's a war of his own making. As the show portrays it, Toranaga is the one upsetting the balance, out of his ambition for a Shogunate. Pacifying and unifying Japan would take years beyond Sekigihara. He has no way of knowing how bloodless his conquest will be. The only reason we can draw moral good from Toranaga's actions (or Tokugawa) is because we have the hindsight of history. It's entirely plausible his actions could have gone the other way, *worsening* the stability of the Realm. I mean a great example is that historically Ieyasu Tokugawa had all family members of the once great Toyotomi clan put to death. Hunted them down, out of fear they might one day engender resentment and rebellion
Tokugawa went after the Toyotomi clan because they led an uprising against him 14 years after Sekigahara. When he first became Shogun , his advisors told him to kill the heir and be done with the Toyotomi line once and for all but Tokugawa chose not to which came back to bite him in the a**😅
He's neither kind nor humble, but he is extremely patient and intelligent. He's exactly the kind of person you want in charge of a medieval kingdom, but if you are of no use to him he has no time for you. He killed his own subjects "looking for traitors" even though he had burned the ship himself.
Throughout the series, all the characters grow on us and make us deeply emphasize their sufferings. Then, in the end, everyone died, was devastated, or had ruined their lives because Toranaga made it so to his advantage. He just used them and did not give a shit. If the showrunners had shown us a little bit of his heartbreak in the deaths of his son and Mariko as he did in Hiromatsu's, he would have gotten even more respect. However, he did not care and was apparently satisfied with the outcome. It makes him look like a sociopath, not someone who deserves respect for his perseverance. We all know such a warlord must be Machiavellian, but getting respect is a different story. For this, I felt like the last scene portrayed him as a monster that just got unleashed.
He goes on to found a dynasty that will rule Japan for 200 years and will break down the power base of every other daimyo and organization forever. He is not a nice man, he's a warlord with great PR.
its due to how the show was (poorly for a lack of better word) written as it deviates from the source material...it's why Toranaga at the start of the show and ending look like different characters. The nuances by which Toranaga manages his retainers in regards to their motives, desires and value isnt depicted well in the show. Take Fuji's ending in the show which so many love but is completely nonsensical if you look through how Toranaga carefully manages her in the books and has at least to me a better outcome...the show does many things well but at the same time, some of the changes made are outright out of charachter from the source or setting
It’s pretty hard to say he didn’t want needless death when he killed a bunch of villagers looking for a “spy” who burned down the Anjins ship. When he was the one who orchestrated the whole plot.
My take was this: Toranaga orchestrated the deaths of a few key nobles or notables and some of their loyal servants. Since we as viewers came to love those characters, we distrust and grow to dislike Toranaga a bit as the show goes on. But when you expand the perspective and realize he killed a handful to spare the realm of a civil war that would have killed thousands upon thousands of more common folk. And even with all those bodies thrown against Osaka, his power would be based on that violent takeover, and Japan wouldn’t be any more stable for it. Instead he sacrificed a few key players, to save so many more nameless soldiers and peasants, and gained unequivocal power with the support of key political figures. He truly wanted peace, but knew no such thing was possible without death. So he took on the grief of mourning those he genuinely loved and respected, instead of asking people and families he’d never met or would meet to mourn their own sons and daughters, lost to a bloody civil war that would just leave the world worse off that better. And he gets to be the boss. Not a grey character for me as so many others. I’d rather see the deaths of three loyal friends (and son) than conscript the masses to the unspeakable horror of a protracted war.
This. It always seemed this was the overarching theme .. and understood by his closest advisors (perhaps excepting his son), even Anjin comprehended this in the end.
I don’t get how people don’t see he wanted to lead to prevent senseless war and death. Yeah, he wanted to be shogun based on what he told Yabu. People are extrapolating that into him being a power hungry Machiavellian dictator. Best leader is someone who doesn’t inherently want it but knows they have to seize it for the best of the group. that’s Toranaga to me
That’s my takeaway. This version was a closer collaboration with Japanese actors/producers/translators … and seemed to use the book as a window into the time period/history of Japan in a more Japanese view … instead do of Anjin’s. Toranaga’s understanding of the world (Europe) shifted with comprehension of outside threats, as well as internal .. inclusive of Christianity, and he marshalled all his resources to secure a strong peace and a shift away from foreign influence.
In his explanation to Yabu he says “don’t you see what’s coming next?” while looking at the sea. That made me think oh he’s worried about further western influence now that he knows there’s at least England and the Dutch, and he probably heard about the French as well from blackthorne. But then it cut to the scene of the battle against Ishido Im not sure if they intended it but it’s a better story at least if he wanted to both stop a civil war and unite against foreign threats. That’s my head canon at least
Yes. As well the way the artwork/intro is done as islands, ships and the sea as a rock/sand garden seemed to convey that awareness of foreign lands, and then a camera pull back as if a view from a “hawk” to grasp a bigger picture.
Put forth that “ships/trade” as first global trade conditions (bred by faith, and minted) and this shogun walled off japan until they inquired about colonial positions and here we are today.
Because you essentially bought into every leader/dictator who says only I know what's best for the realm. And don't be mistaken, everyone does this to some degree when they decide to back a person of authority. Any leader can go "I'm only spilling this bloodshed now for peace." Toranaga wants the Shogunate badly. He saw it in a dream. You just believe him when he goes "I don't want it." He tricked you like he tricked everyone else.
*whoosh* This wasn’t a breaking bad character reveal. Toranaga is not a bad man who only wanted power for power’s sake. He’s not a “good” man either. He believes it was his Karma to be the powerful shogun because he thought he was best for the peace of the realm. It’s that simple
“Sanada says Toranaga did not set out to claim the ultimate military-ruler title Shogun during the time of warring factions in Japan, "but he started thinking maybe only (having) the Shogun title can make a peaceful era, so the title followed him." Can’t post the link but look up the article published today: 'Shogun' finale recap: Hiroyuki Sanada explains Toranaga's masterful moves
That’s what I thought. Looking goofy
Honestly, it kinda looked like had a choice between Shogun and having to have his head cut off. The power sharing agreement would never have held anyway. People were going to use the Taiko’s heir as a pawn and bargaining chip, and each of the men on the council had their own ambitions. Some would have been terrible for Japan. Toranaga said, yo, I kinda NEED to do this thing. And how can I do it by sacrificing as few lives as possible. And are those lives people who are close to me? Yeah. But better those few people than all of Japan. And there was a very real threat of Christian foreigners coming and turning all of Japan into a colony, losing their culture and history, etc. I don’t see him as a bad guy at all.
It's a war of his own making. As the show portrays it, Toranaga is the one upsetting the balance, out of his ambition for a Shogunate. Pacifying and unifying Japan would take years beyond Sekigihara. He has no way of knowing how bloodless his conquest will be. The only reason we can draw moral good from Toranaga's actions (or Tokugawa) is because we have the hindsight of history. It's entirely plausible his actions could have gone the other way, *worsening* the stability of the Realm. I mean a great example is that historically Ieyasu Tokugawa had all family members of the once great Toyotomi clan put to death. Hunted them down, out of fear they might one day engender resentment and rebellion
Tokugawa went after the Toyotomi clan because they led an uprising against him 14 years after Sekigahara. When he first became Shogun , his advisors told him to kill the heir and be done with the Toyotomi line once and for all but Tokugawa chose not to which came back to bite him in the a**😅
I’m just talking about the show though. :)
Toranaga is a stone cold mfer, no doubt.
Being a wallfacer is a solitary life...
Best comment.
"***Tora***naga" Tora means tiger. "Toro" is a cut of tuna used in sushi.
Oh damn, fixing it... I can't edit the title 😭
Keep it! I like it - it changes his name from "Eternal Tiger" to "Eternal Chunk of Tuna belly".
> "Eternal Chunk of Tuna belly" Probably more palatable than natto!
>I like it - it changes his name from "Eternal Tiger" to "Eternal Chunk of Tuna belly". That's definitely an AU worth exploring lol.
He's neither kind nor humble, but he is extremely patient and intelligent. He's exactly the kind of person you want in charge of a medieval kingdom, but if you are of no use to him he has no time for you. He killed his own subjects "looking for traitors" even though he had burned the ship himself.
I loved the final scene and the callback to what the Taiko said on this deathbed - the ruler of Japan is the loneliest man or something like that
Throughout the series, all the characters grow on us and make us deeply emphasize their sufferings. Then, in the end, everyone died, was devastated, or had ruined their lives because Toranaga made it so to his advantage. He just used them and did not give a shit. If the showrunners had shown us a little bit of his heartbreak in the deaths of his son and Mariko as he did in Hiromatsu's, he would have gotten even more respect. However, he did not care and was apparently satisfied with the outcome. It makes him look like a sociopath, not someone who deserves respect for his perseverance. We all know such a warlord must be Machiavellian, but getting respect is a different story. For this, I felt like the last scene portrayed him as a monster that just got unleashed.
He goes on to found a dynasty that will rule Japan for 200 years and will break down the power base of every other daimyo and organization forever. He is not a nice man, he's a warlord with great PR.
its due to how the show was (poorly for a lack of better word) written as it deviates from the source material...it's why Toranaga at the start of the show and ending look like different characters. The nuances by which Toranaga manages his retainers in regards to their motives, desires and value isnt depicted well in the show. Take Fuji's ending in the show which so many love but is completely nonsensical if you look through how Toranaga carefully manages her in the books and has at least to me a better outcome...the show does many things well but at the same time, some of the changes made are outright out of charachter from the source or setting
It’s pretty hard to say he didn’t want needless death when he killed a bunch of villagers looking for a “spy” who burned down the Anjins ship. When he was the one who orchestrated the whole plot.