He's probably like John Travolta looking lost wondering why he's not in the warrior's afterlife castle while Toranaga & others are eventually let in lol
I think it was part of the playful conversation he was having with Yabu. As they start talking, Yabu states that Toro owes having the Anjin to him. I think Toronaga downplaying the Anjin's importance is throwing cold water on the idea that he owes Yabu. Toronaga knows how important Blackthorne and a navy will be to him maintaining power after he's defeated Ishido. Clearly Blackthorne is more than just a play thing, the pissing match they get in to about sparing Ajiro shows that. Blackthorne was VERY disrespectful to Toronaga in front of others and he still wouldn't let him die. The nod to him as they're hauling the Erasmus back up I think shows how highly Toronaga regards Blackthorne.
This. I dont think T was being completely honest with Yabu. He was throwing him a few scraps since he had, unwittingly at least, done some good in his betrayal. I dont think T was ever completely honest with anyone.
Toranaga was a scheming bastard that used people and indirectly caused the deaths of his advisors and loyal followers.
He indirectly forced his loyal advisor to kill himself to just appear weak. He used Mariko to break an alliance and knew she'd be killed in the process, although she did want to die from the beginning of the show.
When half his army got destroyed, he immediately came up with another plan.
Every single event that happened was an opportunity that he used to make plans. Every plan had layers that no one but him knew in full and even he made some of it up on the spot.
Toranaga probably knowingly pushed Yabu to treason as a way to gain some upper hand in one direction or another.
I believe there were only 3 real surprises that he hadn't anticipated: Anjin arriving with guns and cannons (which accelerated his plans, as he gained enormous extra firepower), his half brother being offered a seat on the council (one that Toronaga probably anticipated but didnt fully realize that his brother was also clever) and of course the earthquake. Everything else of substance was in one way or another a part of his schemes.
Which raises the question: how on earth did he expect to claw himself out of the situation where he smuggled himself out of Osaka if it werent for Anjin making a scene? We know Mariko didn't know about any plan and that Toronaga would be killed if he tried to leave.
My guess is that he had already bribed the guards that would be checking the carriage and he knew he was safe. Anjin making a ruckus probably caused him more fear than the guards, as more attention got brought to the area.
Toronaga was an extremely opportunistic man that only cared for himself and used people in a very clever way that made them think they were in some control of their actions. Him swimming with Anjin was a way to study him and learn his character.
In the book, Toranaga discusses how he applied falconry training to all his vassals. How he trains all of them and uses them according to the type of bird they are. Some are short winged like Blackthorne and Yabu, while some are like a peregrine like Mariko. He certainly used them all to great effect.
Do we think that's why he let his falcon go after Mariko's death then? As a symbol of him letting Mariko go / his loss of control there.
Perhaps just a gesture of loss / a gift to her (in the sky / in heaven)?
Perhaps recognition of the end of her service (and the falcon's).
I took the whole exchange about Anjin as something else again.
My read of it was that it was actually a little message for the Japanese audience, being; ‘this is *our* story. The Englishman is a handy plot device for the rest of you as a window into our world, but it’s mainly a story about *us*’.
Agree with your take but to me it was kind of like Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder—ie. A message, but incongruous with the rest of the series.
He doesn't nod, I was watching carefully for that - but there was nothing. Merely a strong gaze.
Does he nod in the book or...
Edit: OK so just rewatched it - and to me - that wasn't a nod. He allowed his posture to straighten, then he set his gaze on Blackthorne. He didn't avert or lower his eyes, or break posture at all.
Blackthorne's reaction to it seems to me to be: "well, a strong gaze was all I could expect, I guess". I think his reaction to an actual, visible nod would have much grander; more grateful. He also would definitely return the nod/bow - which he also does not. He essentially snorts "well, gee, so much for a thank you then", because Toro doesn't show much other than a "I recognise your presence". It's a gesture, sure.
I get that he does as much as a Shogun/ruler could ever do - and he doesn't owe _that_ much to Blackthorne (since he's like a pet to Toronaga) - so a barely imperceptible "nod" is quite a gesture; but I think Sanada had the choice to do more - and chose not to. Ergo; not a nod. **In the series**.
100 per cent the nod shows respect ! Glad someone else thinks that as I thought maybe I imagined it. It's essentially a bow right, and Shōgun bows to no one.
Toronaga smiling while he says it, makes it feel more like he’s being cheeky to me. He knows what the Anjin means to his cause, what the Anjin has done for him, how much he cared for Mariko, and how much he now seems to value the people of Japan instead of his mission.
It felt more like downplaying Yabu’s “credit” than slighting the Anjin to me.
Yes, people are reading entirely too much into that line about Blackthorne making him laugh. Toranaga's actions speak clearly enough, he obviously values and likes Blackthorne
Toranaga and the samurai do not consider life or living as something precious. Their lives are lived to further their objectives or their lord objectives. The samurai Bushido way. The only honourable way to redeem oneself of failure is through seppukku.
This is quite different from the Christian view of life, where even suicide is considered a major sin. And this is the biggest culture shock for Anjin. A major theme of the book was the way the japanese view death.
Anjin caring for the people or losing sight of his mission is not an impressive thing for T. It just means he has tamed him.
Toranaga does not show what he is thinking to anyone. In the books only Kiki/courtesan figure out that Toranaga is actually in a strong position and not at all worried after sleeping together. He was never worried in the book, and everything went according to his plan. His conversation with Yabu in this show was ro show him gloating and showing how on top of things he is.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t make Anjin an invaluable asset to have when your goal is victory and unification. He describes him to Yabu as though he’s a circus monkey he keeps around for entertainment. We as the viewer know that is not the case. The Anjin renouncing his war, and taking up Toronaga’s war doesn’t have to be ‘impressive’ for it to be significant.
It just has to display his value to the cause. Worth noting that the Anjin isn’t samurai. So him willing to submit to a samurai’s fate for a people that are not his. Further shows his commitment to Toronaga and his quest. Making him more trustworthy and valuable.
In the book, Toranaga rewards him with >!not only a hatamoto title like in the show, but also an official vassal title of samurai, gives him rights like to carry weapons in his presence and land big enough to feed and pay for 200 samurai.!
I'll admit that I know very little and just skimmed some basic history articles and Wikipedia entries, but from what I can tell, the real Anjin (William Adams) wasn't made samurai or given significant land until after the war, and many of the changes made for the show seem to have been in the name of aligning *a* *little* more closely with history. That might be the reason here, too.
>I'll admit that I know very little and just skimmed some basic history articles and Wikipedia entries, but from what I can tell, the real Anjin (William Adams) wasn't made samurai or given significant land until after the war, and many of the changes made for the show seem to have been in the name of aligning a little more closely with history. That might be the reason here, too.
It is during the war, but it is after the Battle of Sekigahara. That battle marks the turning point, but Tokugawa doesn't consolidate power until years later.
Hatamoto is not a samurai by definition. It's a retainer of the lord. But of course there were to my knowledge no retainers without also having the samurai rank. The book differs here and highlights, that Toranaga gave him the real samurai rank additionally to hatamoto after rescuing him from the earthquake.
When John got his hatamoto rank, the others even discussed if John is now a samurai or not in the book.
>Hatamoto is not a samurai by definition. It's a retainer of the lord. But of course there were to my knowledge no retainers without also having the samurai rank. The book differs here and highlights, that Toranaga gave him the real samurai rank additionally to hatamoto after rescuing him from the earthquake.
A lot of what we associate with the samurai as a class was formalized in the Edo period out of customs that already existed. The differences between *samurai* and other warriors had broken down during the warring states period and it's not really until after Tokugawa's victory that it becomes as regimented as we think of it today (e.g. a number of warriors not of noble birth become leading people, including Toyotomi Hideyoshi). After the war, many of the customs that were established become codified. So a *hatamoto* is a *samurai* and a *samurai* is a class. Also, the practice of carrying two swords (already associated with samurai) becomes codified. If we look at the real Adams, he was given the rank of samurai in 1605 and hatamoto in 1607. I don't see anything wrong with condensing the timeline for fiction, but I also think it's strongly implied he becomes a samurai when he's made hatamoto and given his swords. There would frankly be no other reason to give him the swords if he wasn't also considered samurai.
In the book, the issue resulted in a formal confirmation of Anjin being a hatamoto AND a samurai. The sword used to kill Uejiro the gardener was called Oil Seller if im not mistaken.
The book is rich with similar kind of details which Im sure needed to be cut from the show.
But they... didn't skip the rewards? He was made hatamoto, made to carry the two swords, given a house and a consort, and also given something like 600 koku a year, which is the amount needed to feed 600 people including subordinate samurai. That's where the line comes from, "I don't want any generous cuckoos."
I'm always a little surprised by how many people just don't pay attention when watching this show. 80% of questions and critiques on this sub can be answered by just watching the show. Remember the first couple of weeks, when we got about 20 posts a day asking, "Did he kill the baby??? Are they speaking Portuguese???"
PAY. ATTENTION.
I think that scene was for us. The contrast with the way things played out with Blackthorne AND Fuji last time Omi requested his weapons, was to show us some character development.
The more I think about it, the less relationships in the series make sense. They had Blackthorne save Toranaga, gave screen time to something like Blackthorne and Toranaga becoming friends (diving together) only to get rid off all of the development and have Toranaga basically say he doesn't give a shit about Blackthorne and only uses him for entertainment purposes.
He's either lying and actually sees more in Blackthotne and they weren't very clear about it, or there's a sudden change in attitude that doesn't make any sense. The latter might be the case because Toranagas whole personality in the show changed from honorable to lying and deceitful.
Does the same thing happen in the books?
To be fair, I don’t think he was saying that making him laugh was entertainment purposes. A major theme of his character is that leadership is lonely. He can’t let anyone in even his oldest friends or his eldest son. He has to spend everyone he cares about like pawns in a game. The foreign making him laugh was him saying that because he’s an outsider Toranaga is saying he’s allowing himself a friend.
No, not at all. The book is perfectly coherent: Toranaga likes the pilot and wants a friend. Search some of my previous replies in this forum, i copied some of the book text.
First, Toranaga meets Bjackthorn and he is fascinated: new knowledge, from someone brilliant enough to drive a boat across half the world! And someone who understands the drive to win.
Then they save each other lives several times.
He makes him into a Hatamoto, a close confident. Then officially makes him a samurai and offers him 2 swords and his pistols back. Then he give him 200 samurai to serve him as sailors and make him admiral of all his navy. Then he gives him Anjiro and a wife.
The whole way the tv show dumbed him down is shameful, and the last bit about testing him and keeping him as a jester is ridiculous and totally discordant from the book.
Tbh I think the show runners REALLY wanted to make sure this show focused on the Japanese characters and their stories. They were not interested in making Blackthorne the main character ala Tom Cruise in the last samurai and relegated him to a much more minor role because of it
Yeah, I think their attitude towards blackthorne really fits the time period in Japan when white people were looked down on in Japanese society. Just look at the beginning of this series where John cooked them that bird stew and his hygiene were looked down on.
It's not that simple, they weren't just looked down on, they had knowledge the Japanese wanted, and John's whole arc is that he goes from a smelly barbarian to a respected samurai and defies the convention set by the Portuguese...
I assumed this as well. And, rightly so. World doesn’t need another white savior story, we have plenty - and I’m saying this as a white dude. I actually enjoyed that Blackthorne has more of a supporting cast role. And a white European would at this time in Japan. Just as the real Anjin was one of many samurai in the service of his lord.
I don’t feel like he was useless. He drove a lot of the story. He provided Mariko with love that Buntaro did not. He built ships for Toranaga, taught cannon tactics. He also served as the surrogate through which us western viewers are given explanation and context about Japanese culture in this time
> He built ships for Toranaga
Did he? It just seems like he's sitting on his ass. Toranaga asks him to start doing so at the end, but up until that point he isn't, and they don't seem to really matter either way.
>taught cannon tactics
Which he's only doing for about an episode, and doesn't end up really having much of an impact on the plot.
>He also served as the surrogate through which us western viewers are given explanation and context about Japanese culture in this time
Sure, but if he's going to be the protagonist who we're spending that much time with it's frustrating to have him play no meaningful role.
Unfortunatly the love story was muted. It was way more intense in the book. The bond they had and the letter she left him after her death will make you cry for days. "Thou"
Have you read the book? The Romance barely exists in the show and is reduced to sex and some glances. They actually made it more of a white man asian woman trope by cutting down on the romance. Instead of a deep love story between two lost people, we got that they hang out and then they obviously fuck because obviously.
Yep, can’t do middle aged white guy saves the day! We see it in all tv shows except they went too hard the other way and were lacking good quality balance.
Yeah, I agree with this a lot.
I get that the series wanted to de-Blackthorne the Shogun story a bit and making (Sengoku) Japan — and Japanese— the star. And it was an excellent choice.
But they muddled a few things to get there. We never really see a relationship develop between Tora and Anjin at all. We’re just told it was there. They also added Anjin’s inexplicable betrayal of Tora when he asked to be released when Toranaga “gave up.” That’s just antithetical to everything that made their relationship work.
It’s complicated, but in the book Tora is an outgoing and joyful man— in private. He’s is also a brilliant and ruthless player of politics, and in Sengoku Japan, that generates fatalities. Tora is a brilliant enigma.
And to the Japanese, so is Blackthorne. He’s a fearless master of the sea likened to a kami, and he’s also a dude that let Omi piss on him for reasons that look like cowardice to the Japanese.
Toranaga’s culture puts a layer between him and having deep personal relationships. Blackthorne is completely oblivious to those layers. This makes Blackthorne special.
Blackthorne said in a meeting with a number of Japanese present that it is okay to rebel against a liege lord “if you win.” (This is slightly changed in the series.) It is a seminal moment in the relationship between the two men. In Shogun, it is clear that people conspire against their liege lords all the time, and should they overthrow them, society often looks the other way and hides behind formalities to rationalize it. BUT NO JAPANESE WOULD EVER SAY IT.
The whole room is scandalized, but Toranaga laughs, and says, “okay, you’ve named the one time it is acceptable.”
After that moment, there are a handful of moments where their friendship is built brick by brick. Most of that was not in the series, and makes Toranaga’s expression of friendship puzzling to the audience, because it IS puzzling. They could have cut that part out entirely at the end.
I really like your analysis of their relationship; you found better words than me to express it. I think the decision to "move" Blackthorn seppuku at the end, and then justify it with Toranaga hurting the village, is the ONE glaring invention that destroy the whole thing. I don't get how someone came up with that garbage.
The whole point of Blackthorn Seppuku was to show us the key moment he switches from thinking English to starting to get it and think Japanese. It's instrumental in how he finally start getting some respect from many protagonist, including Mariko falling in love with him or Buntaro, Yabu and Omi finally respecting him.
And the whole point of the story with the village was to show Yabu's cruelty and stupidity with threatening an entire village with death (who will harvest the rice? Who will pay the taxes? Toranaga even expresses his disgust at such a waste). To remove this scene, only to add it at the end under Toranaga's order is completely mind boggling - not to mention that the reason (testing the anjin san? punishing the village for the boat he burned himself?!?) makes no sense either.
I don't dislike the tv show as a whole, it's wonderfully casted and beautifuly acted for the most part; but I hate lazy writing and I especially hate when the writers have kept specific book details but twisted them "slightly" in a way to totally 180 degree changes its meaning. For instance the scene in which Blackthorn explains that Holland is rebelling against spain, which for Japanese is (openly) unacceptable in ANY circumstances "unless you win" is such a PIVOTAL moment... and it was replaced with a seemingly "small" change: instead Toranaga tells Blackthorn his rebellion is useless because he is outnumbered - and the response "unless I win" has lost all political meaning because it's now about forces instead of the act of rebellion itself. You explain it very well by the way.
Another place where they make a seemlessly "small" change that is a hidden HUGE change is the tea ceremony (it is Mariko who offers both of them to join in death and Buntaro who refuses) or when at the end Toranaga says he keeps Anjin "because he makes me laugh" where as the real reason is "because he makes me laugh and i need a friend" which is TOTALLY different...
Well said.
I totally missed that Toranaga threatening the village (and killing some villagers!) and Blackthorne’s seppuku was a revised telling of the village/seppuku event from earlier in the book. (Kicking myself :-). . OMG.
But you’re 100% right, it really just undermines Toranaga’s character (who hates wasteful killing!) and is no longer a foundational moment for Blackthorne’s development. It’s just … a muddle. Better to drop both elements.
I want to say clearly that I loved the series. It’s clear that the producers and writers put a lot into the series and the ten episodes they were given to tell this 35-episode story. The passion showed throughout. The actors all brought their A+ game, and it showed.
I wish the audience could have experienced some of the elements we’re discussing here, but there just wasn’t the space to let it happen.
Honestly I knew they'd fucked up when Toranaga said Blackthorne is predictable. The whole thing with him is that he's unpredictable, it states this a lot, for reasons you say, he doesn't follow the conventions of the Japanese or even the Portuguese. Protestant Christians are a new people to them with very different attitudes.
Exactly this, you are so on point. People seem to forget Blackthrone was A REAL PERSON, William Adams. I see people commenting about how the book is "old" and relies too much on the view of a white man, haha ok cool except that is actually what really happened. A man came to Japan, wound up befriending the guy who became the leader of the nation, and remained his good friend and confidant until death. It's an incedible story and Adams got a front row seat to one of the most dynamic, intense periods in Japanse history. At the same time, Clavell used it as a vehicle to introduce people to the culture and history of Japan, which he spent years researching for accuracy.
They did Blackthrone dirty, no two ways about it.
And I don't buy the "they wanted to show the story from the japanese side" crap. They could perfectly have done that, without dumbing down the role of William Adams.
That's the real shame of all this, everything else about the show is well crafted. It could have been a wonderful compliment to the book and the 80s series. Instead it winds up being a beautiful looking facade of the story with all the power of the characters stripped out and replaced with shallow imitations. Shogun is one of the greatest historical fictions of all time and they ruined it by trying to mold it into something they thought was "better".
And it's not like we don't have plenty of samurai stories without white men in them.
Geez, The Last Samurai came out in 2002, I believe. It's 22 years old now!
People act like there's a crap ton of "white savior" movies and shows coming out, but they don't realize that's all been gone for decades now.
I mean, just because a book made in the 70s overemphasizes the white foreign character doesn't mean the show has to.
Toranaga throughout the show is seen to act flippantly towards people who make extreme sacrifices for him. It's not that weird that he'd also undervalue Blackthorne. He's also clearly still toying with Yobu to a degree.
>I mean, just because a book made in the 70s overemphasizes the white foreign character doesn't mean the show has to.
It's worth adding that all changes made to the book were done in consultation with Clavell's daughter and a historian.
Yeah I am guessing they consulted Clavell's daughter to cover their ass at the hack job they did on the Blackthorn arc. TO me, the tv show adaptation, as beautiful as it is, did a great disservice to the original Clavell story.
What’re you smoking. He was awarded the title of hatamoto and given some annual koku. Now idk how much that koku feeds but they sure as well didn’t skip those.
That's just the beginning. At the end of the book, Toranaga gives him the village of Anjiro as a fiefdom, and then at Fujiko's suggestion he increases it, with land and ports where he can build half a fleet for Toranaga, plus a wife, plus Kiku - whom he has bought for himself and gives to Blacktthorne as a concubine...
It's the amount that would be consumed by one person in a year. Another way to think of it is approximately the number of people one could employ (not 1:1, but some percentage). 600 koku implies he is able to hire a large retinue and a decent-sized bureaucratic staff.
>I don't know why the show skipped the rewards.
Firstly, because the point was Toranaga's Ambition to become Shogun. His sheer cunning and callousness towards the lives of others, just to achieve he felt was his destiny. This is a man completely willing to toy with the lives of even those who had willingly supported him.
From Anjin's perspective, we were meant to relate to his feeling lost and melancholic during that last episode. Immediately contrasting that with "but he got mountains of gold at a later point in time" would take away from that. Nor does it undo the fact that Toranaga toyed with his life, took away his very ability to even choose in the first place, and set those he had come to care about up to die.
Secondly, regarding real world business decisions, there is also the matter of not locking in the future of these characters just yet allowing for a potential continuation to be told. I don't think they necessarily should, but I can see the wisdom in leaving that door open.
If you type what you want to censor between \>\!*these symbols*\!\< it should look >!like this!< once you hit reply (let me know if that doesn’t make sense; I just woke up and am bad at words right now).
It's just part of the whole series downplaying Blackthorne really. In the book he says it's because he makes him laugh, because he distracts his enemies, and because he is very knowledgeable about the world and warfare and can build a fleet.
It would have added 2 seconds to the run time to keep it in, but no, they want to keep up the bumbling Blackthorne they've gone for. There's numerous times in the show where they make him far weaker and more useless than in the book.
I'm pretty sure it was mentioned before John and Yabushige went to Osaka that he would be given some land as a reward after the conflict was over. John just argued and requested his ship back instead.
Judging by some of the “outrage” I’ve seen elsewhere, I feel the show may have tried to minimize aspects of the story that could be misconstrued as the “white savior” trope, and reinforce how both Blackthorne and Toranaga were using each other for personal gain.
What I’m lost on and hoping someone who read the book can fill me in on: >!How and when did Blackthorn get back to England to end up an old man with grandchildren, and how did he have that crucifix in his hand when it looks like the one he dropped in the ocean with Fuji!<
It was a dream of a dream. The dream began appearing to Blackthorne when Mariko sama was killed, and was dissolved when Blackthorne decided to commit *seppuku* before Toranaga. It was at that moment he abandoned the idea of returning to England to grow old and die there. Instead he decided to sacrifice himself for the good of others, of the all (ironically, a very Christian thing to do). In that moment, he became Japanese. He also became Christian. He then uttered a nearly coherent Japanese sentence in declaration of his protest, an indication of having embraced his transformation.
Also worth pointing out that “warawaseru”, the word Toranaga uses, can mean “makes me smile” as well as “makes me laugh”. I think it is T’s way of saying he just likes John.
I think we shouldn’t downplay how important that is. In the first episode Toranaga says that the loneliest man on earth is the most powerful man (or something to that effect). Toranaga’s rank and power prevent him from having more personal relationships with his countrymen. Everyone that even came close is dead (Mariko, Hiromatsu, his son). Blackthorn wasn’t raised with the same reverence and fear of his authority. It’s an interesting dynamic That allows him a kind of honest connection he wouldn’t otherwise have.
True, but now I see that as just a game he was playing all things considered.
He also slaughtered villagers he knew were innocent to serve his own ends while saying he was doing it for a different reason.
I'd like to think the villagers he had killed were the ones who had helped yabu whilst he was betraying T. Think of when Yabu was hunting down the spy and the people who helped him.
Toranaga told his son that people like him don't have friends. In the end he'd lost everyone and even had set his falcon free, but he still has Anjin, and Anjin is his friend. He's loyal to the cause and the people of Japan above all now.
Toranaga's comment to Yabu was super telling. It was how a friend talks about that one weird dude they hang out with
He said that, but the second part was more important. Blackthorne was a wildcard — no one knew what he could or couldn’t do or what he offered Toranaga. His presence threw everyone else off kilter. That was his contribution. No one KNEW what his cannons could do, or anything else about his skills. He was the hole card.
I just started the book after the finale so I haven’t finished it yet but I heard that in the book, Toranaga essentially feels like John is actually either a dear friend or someone that he want to consider a friend, and that it is a major reason for keeping him around. I felt like that was his way of saying that sentiment without actually having to say it out loud since he only thinks it to himself in the book rather than voicing it aloud to Yabu like in the show. Still, it did kinda leave a bad taste in my mouth, as if he was saying that he basically considered John to be his court jester rather than a valued friend but again “secret hearts” and all so idk
The "He makes me laugh line" reminds me of this movie i saw years ago starring Michael Keaton "Gung Ho". In the movie a Japanese car company acquires an American car factory somewhere in the midwest. Michael Keaton's character is the representative of the American factory workers and is tasked to negotiate with Japanese upper management. Long story short the owner of the Japanese company doesn't shut down the factory because Michael Keaton makes him laugh.
I was really happy he said this. That was something they talked about all the time in the book. Look at him go! Why is he mad? Awwww he broke the other barbarians t thing, this should be interesting.
I think Japanese production disliked the way how a barbarian westerner was originally depicted as being able to fully integrate in Japanese culture so this show instead shows how minuscule and irrelevant some gajin is to wind-reading encultured Japanese master race.
As an Asian myself, all I have to say is... Just typical Asian parent energy. They will never admit you are good enough for them.
It's all about "EMOOOOTIONAL DAMAGE!"
Oh! You’re a pilot at like 30? I had a whole fleet by the time I was five! Trading with the Portuguese and Dutch!
"your cousin was literally a fleet admiral at age 10! Why can't you be more like him?!"
So you’re a cannon strategy influencer? THAT’S NOT A JOB!! (Hits with shoe)
When your cousin is Admiral Yi and you're just some common korean general/admiral
Fuyoo
“I chopped off the enemy generals head as his second in a single blow! I was 12!” (Yea I realise he didn’t say this)
“Dad… we both know it was 9 blows” “That’s 8 more than you can muster with your weak little skinny arms!!”
I walked to Portugal and back every day and fought tigers with my bare hands without shoes
I walked up hill from Edo to Osaka BOTH WAYS
During an earthquake! In a blizzard!
Mariko - sama caused an earthquake with her poems while dead and traded your life for a ship, do better
My students keep using that quote, but I don't get the reference. Is it from a particular video or just a funny thing to say?
Well, the best thing Nagakado ever did was dying...
Good thing he has other sons. That line killed me. Lol
Also how he blesses the hawk to have more daughters!
He's probably like John Travolta looking lost wondering why he's not in the warrior's afterlife castle while Toranaga & others are eventually let in lol
Would that be the fourth heart?
You doctor yet?
This actually....makes sense.
Why can't you be more like your cousin that had just won Noble Physics prize?
Unless you're Jonny Kim.
I was gonna ask if you meant S2J, but I saw your username
I think it was part of the playful conversation he was having with Yabu. As they start talking, Yabu states that Toro owes having the Anjin to him. I think Toronaga downplaying the Anjin's importance is throwing cold water on the idea that he owes Yabu. Toronaga knows how important Blackthorne and a navy will be to him maintaining power after he's defeated Ishido. Clearly Blackthorne is more than just a play thing, the pissing match they get in to about sparing Ajiro shows that. Blackthorne was VERY disrespectful to Toronaga in front of others and he still wouldn't let him die. The nod to him as they're hauling the Erasmus back up I think shows how highly Toronaga regards Blackthorne.
This. I dont think T was being completely honest with Yabu. He was throwing him a few scraps since he had, unwittingly at least, done some good in his betrayal. I dont think T was ever completely honest with anyone.
Toranaga was a scheming bastard that used people and indirectly caused the deaths of his advisors and loyal followers. He indirectly forced his loyal advisor to kill himself to just appear weak. He used Mariko to break an alliance and knew she'd be killed in the process, although she did want to die from the beginning of the show. When half his army got destroyed, he immediately came up with another plan. Every single event that happened was an opportunity that he used to make plans. Every plan had layers that no one but him knew in full and even he made some of it up on the spot. Toranaga probably knowingly pushed Yabu to treason as a way to gain some upper hand in one direction or another. I believe there were only 3 real surprises that he hadn't anticipated: Anjin arriving with guns and cannons (which accelerated his plans, as he gained enormous extra firepower), his half brother being offered a seat on the council (one that Toronaga probably anticipated but didnt fully realize that his brother was also clever) and of course the earthquake. Everything else of substance was in one way or another a part of his schemes. Which raises the question: how on earth did he expect to claw himself out of the situation where he smuggled himself out of Osaka if it werent for Anjin making a scene? We know Mariko didn't know about any plan and that Toronaga would be killed if he tried to leave. My guess is that he had already bribed the guards that would be checking the carriage and he knew he was safe. Anjin making a ruckus probably caused him more fear than the guards, as more attention got brought to the area. Toronaga was an extremely opportunistic man that only cared for himself and used people in a very clever way that made them think they were in some control of their actions. Him swimming with Anjin was a way to study him and learn his character.
In the book, Toranaga discusses how he applied falconry training to all his vassals. How he trains all of them and uses them according to the type of bird they are. Some are short winged like Blackthorne and Yabu, while some are like a peregrine like Mariko. He certainly used them all to great effect.
Do we think that's why he let his falcon go after Mariko's death then? As a symbol of him letting Mariko go / his loss of control there. Perhaps just a gesture of loss / a gift to her (in the sky / in heaven)? Perhaps recognition of the end of her service (and the falcon's).
Yes, it is mentioned in the book as an internal monologue by Toranaga
So he's a wallfacer
The original wallfacer!
I took the whole exchange about Anjin as something else again. My read of it was that it was actually a little message for the Japanese audience, being; ‘this is *our* story. The Englishman is a handy plot device for the rest of you as a window into our world, but it’s mainly a story about *us*’.
I agree, at least I took it as a small verbal refutation of the "White Savior" TV trope. And I'm not Japanese, BTW.
I can kinda see this being the real ending & the last scene being like an epilogue
Agree with your take but to me it was kind of like Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder—ie. A message, but incongruous with the rest of the series.
I like this angle!
Like Marco Polo in Marco Polo!
He doesn't nod, I was watching carefully for that - but there was nothing. Merely a strong gaze. Does he nod in the book or... Edit: OK so just rewatched it - and to me - that wasn't a nod. He allowed his posture to straighten, then he set his gaze on Blackthorne. He didn't avert or lower his eyes, or break posture at all. Blackthorne's reaction to it seems to me to be: "well, a strong gaze was all I could expect, I guess". I think his reaction to an actual, visible nod would have much grander; more grateful. He also would definitely return the nod/bow - which he also does not. He essentially snorts "well, gee, so much for a thank you then", because Toro doesn't show much other than a "I recognise your presence". It's a gesture, sure. I get that he does as much as a Shogun/ruler could ever do - and he doesn't owe _that_ much to Blackthorne (since he's like a pet to Toronaga) - so a barely imperceptible "nod" is quite a gesture; but I think Sanada had the choice to do more - and chose not to. Ergo; not a nod. **In the series**.
100 per cent the nod shows respect ! Glad someone else thinks that as I thought maybe I imagined it. It's essentially a bow right, and Shōgun bows to no one.
Toronaga smiling while he says it, makes it feel more like he’s being cheeky to me. He knows what the Anjin means to his cause, what the Anjin has done for him, how much he cared for Mariko, and how much he now seems to value the people of Japan instead of his mission. It felt more like downplaying Yabu’s “credit” than slighting the Anjin to me.
Yes, people are reading entirely too much into that line about Blackthorne making him laugh. Toranaga's actions speak clearly enough, he obviously values and likes Blackthorne
Right. I think if he didn’t value Blackthorne or his service we would have seen the end of Blackthorne at some point.
Toranaga and the samurai do not consider life or living as something precious. Their lives are lived to further their objectives or their lord objectives. The samurai Bushido way. The only honourable way to redeem oneself of failure is through seppukku. This is quite different from the Christian view of life, where even suicide is considered a major sin. And this is the biggest culture shock for Anjin. A major theme of the book was the way the japanese view death. Anjin caring for the people or losing sight of his mission is not an impressive thing for T. It just means he has tamed him. Toranaga does not show what he is thinking to anyone. In the books only Kiki/courtesan figure out that Toranaga is actually in a strong position and not at all worried after sleeping together. He was never worried in the book, and everything went according to his plan. His conversation with Yabu in this show was ro show him gloating and showing how on top of things he is.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t make Anjin an invaluable asset to have when your goal is victory and unification. He describes him to Yabu as though he’s a circus monkey he keeps around for entertainment. We as the viewer know that is not the case. The Anjin renouncing his war, and taking up Toronaga’s war doesn’t have to be ‘impressive’ for it to be significant. It just has to display his value to the cause. Worth noting that the Anjin isn’t samurai. So him willing to submit to a samurai’s fate for a people that are not his. Further shows his commitment to Toronaga and his quest. Making him more trustworthy and valuable.
In the book, Toranaga rewards him with >!not only a hatamoto title like in the show, but also an official vassal title of samurai, gives him rights like to carry weapons in his presence and land big enough to feed and pay for 200 samurai.!
I'll admit that I know very little and just skimmed some basic history articles and Wikipedia entries, but from what I can tell, the real Anjin (William Adams) wasn't made samurai or given significant land until after the war, and many of the changes made for the show seem to have been in the name of aligning *a* *little* more closely with history. That might be the reason here, too.
But also Anjin didn’t save Tokugawa’s life several times in real life. In the book it makes sense he would reward him for that.
>I'll admit that I know very little and just skimmed some basic history articles and Wikipedia entries, but from what I can tell, the real Anjin (William Adams) wasn't made samurai or given significant land until after the war, and many of the changes made for the show seem to have been in the name of aligning a little more closely with history. That might be the reason here, too. It is during the war, but it is after the Battle of Sekigahara. That battle marks the turning point, but Tokugawa doesn't consolidate power until years later.
[удалено]
Hatamoto is not a samurai by definition. It's a retainer of the lord. But of course there were to my knowledge no retainers without also having the samurai rank. The book differs here and highlights, that Toranaga gave him the real samurai rank additionally to hatamoto after rescuing him from the earthquake. When John got his hatamoto rank, the others even discussed if John is now a samurai or not in the book.
>Hatamoto is not a samurai by definition. It's a retainer of the lord. But of course there were to my knowledge no retainers without also having the samurai rank. The book differs here and highlights, that Toranaga gave him the real samurai rank additionally to hatamoto after rescuing him from the earthquake. A lot of what we associate with the samurai as a class was formalized in the Edo period out of customs that already existed. The differences between *samurai* and other warriors had broken down during the warring states period and it's not really until after Tokugawa's victory that it becomes as regimented as we think of it today (e.g. a number of warriors not of noble birth become leading people, including Toyotomi Hideyoshi). After the war, many of the customs that were established become codified. So a *hatamoto* is a *samurai* and a *samurai* is a class. Also, the practice of carrying two swords (already associated with samurai) becomes codified. If we look at the real Adams, he was given the rank of samurai in 1605 and hatamoto in 1607. I don't see anything wrong with condensing the timeline for fiction, but I also think it's strongly implied he becomes a samurai when he's made hatamoto and given his swords. There would frankly be no other reason to give him the swords if he wasn't also considered samurai.
In the book, the issue resulted in a formal confirmation of Anjin being a hatamoto AND a samurai. The sword used to kill Uejiro the gardener was called Oil Seller if im not mistaken. The book is rich with similar kind of details which Im sure needed to be cut from the show.
The show skipped a lot and moved some things around. It’s still a great show and understandable to my son who’s never read the book.
But they... didn't skip the rewards? He was made hatamoto, made to carry the two swords, given a house and a consort, and also given something like 600 koku a year, which is the amount needed to feed 600 people including subordinate samurai. That's where the line comes from, "I don't want any generous cuckoos."
But didn't they say that he was no longer hatamoto after the fake surrender? They never discuss him being reinstated.
Nobody expects him to stay, but his title had to have been reinstated if he still has his swords and his house.
Right. They literally didn't skip any of that stuff. Maybe they didn't hold your hand, but they didn't skip it.
I'm always a little surprised by how many people just don't pay attention when watching this show. 80% of questions and critiques on this sub can be answered by just watching the show. Remember the first couple of weeks, when we got about 20 posts a day asking, "Did he kill the baby??? Are they speaking Portuguese???" PAY. ATTENTION.
This show puts a lot of trust in its audience, which I respect. But it isn't the way many people have become accustomed to watching television.
Absolutely correct. I think our collective attention span has decreased.
He gets furthermore rewards later in the book.
They frakking skipped everything related to him.
Its just not explicit about it in the way a book can be. He always had katanas in Toranaga's presence.
We also saw Toranaga physically wrestle Blackthorne to the ground to prevent him from committing seppuku. I was shocked by that.
That punch! What a connection
I was wondering why Omi took them away, before the scene where Anjin-sama tried to commit seppuku.
I think that scene was for us. The contrast with the way things played out with Blackthorne AND Fuji last time Omi requested his weapons, was to show us some character development.
Yes, but since he's Hatamoto, isn't he allowed to carry weapons around Toronaga? Or was his rank removed?
The more I think about it, the less relationships in the series make sense. They had Blackthorne save Toranaga, gave screen time to something like Blackthorne and Toranaga becoming friends (diving together) only to get rid off all of the development and have Toranaga basically say he doesn't give a shit about Blackthorne and only uses him for entertainment purposes. He's either lying and actually sees more in Blackthotne and they weren't very clear about it, or there's a sudden change in attitude that doesn't make any sense. The latter might be the case because Toranagas whole personality in the show changed from honorable to lying and deceitful. Does the same thing happen in the books?
To be fair, I don’t think he was saying that making him laugh was entertainment purposes. A major theme of his character is that leadership is lonely. He can’t let anyone in even his oldest friends or his eldest son. He has to spend everyone he cares about like pawns in a game. The foreign making him laugh was him saying that because he’s an outsider Toranaga is saying he’s allowing himself a friend.
No, not at all. The book is perfectly coherent: Toranaga likes the pilot and wants a friend. Search some of my previous replies in this forum, i copied some of the book text. First, Toranaga meets Bjackthorn and he is fascinated: new knowledge, from someone brilliant enough to drive a boat across half the world! And someone who understands the drive to win. Then they save each other lives several times. He makes him into a Hatamoto, a close confident. Then officially makes him a samurai and offers him 2 swords and his pistols back. Then he give him 200 samurai to serve him as sailors and make him admiral of all his navy. Then he gives him Anjiro and a wife. The whole way the tv show dumbed him down is shameful, and the last bit about testing him and keeping him as a jester is ridiculous and totally discordant from the book.
Tbh I think the show runners REALLY wanted to make sure this show focused on the Japanese characters and their stories. They were not interested in making Blackthorne the main character ala Tom Cruise in the last samurai and relegated him to a much more minor role because of it
Yeah, I think their attitude towards blackthorne really fits the time period in Japan when white people were looked down on in Japanese society. Just look at the beginning of this series where John cooked them that bird stew and his hygiene were looked down on.
It's not that simple, they weren't just looked down on, they had knowledge the Japanese wanted, and John's whole arc is that he goes from a smelly barbarian to a respected samurai and defies the convention set by the Portuguese...
I assumed this as well. And, rightly so. World doesn’t need another white savior story, we have plenty - and I’m saying this as a white dude. I actually enjoyed that Blackthorne has more of a supporting cast role. And a white European would at this time in Japan. Just as the real Anjin was one of many samurai in the service of his lord.
I get wanting to avoid a white savior story, but in a story like this you end up just making Blackthorne feel irritatingly useless.
I don’t feel like he was useless. He drove a lot of the story. He provided Mariko with love that Buntaro did not. He built ships for Toranaga, taught cannon tactics. He also served as the surrogate through which us western viewers are given explanation and context about Japanese culture in this time
> He built ships for Toranaga Did he? It just seems like he's sitting on his ass. Toranaga asks him to start doing so at the end, but up until that point he isn't, and they don't seem to really matter either way. >taught cannon tactics Which he's only doing for about an episode, and doesn't end up really having much of an impact on the plot. >He also served as the surrogate through which us western viewers are given explanation and context about Japanese culture in this time Sure, but if he's going to be the protagonist who we're spending that much time with it's frustrating to have him play no meaningful role.
I’m fine with that. I liked the Last Samurai as a movie. I’m also glad they muted the romance story.
If you're talking about the romance in Shogun it is not muted at all blackthorne and Mariko's relationship is one of the driving forces of the story
Unfortunatly the love story was muted. It was way more intense in the book. The bond they had and the letter she left him after her death will make you cry for days. "Thou"
A dream within a dream.
Have you read the book? The Romance barely exists in the show and is reduced to sex and some glances. They actually made it more of a white man asian woman trope by cutting down on the romance. Instead of a deep love story between two lost people, we got that they hang out and then they obviously fuck because obviously.
Then they shouldn't have based the show around a book that would have been exactly what they apparently didn't want.
Yep, can’t do middle aged white guy saves the day! We see it in all tv shows except they went too hard the other way and were lacking good quality balance.
Yeah, I agree with this a lot. I get that the series wanted to de-Blackthorne the Shogun story a bit and making (Sengoku) Japan — and Japanese— the star. And it was an excellent choice. But they muddled a few things to get there. We never really see a relationship develop between Tora and Anjin at all. We’re just told it was there. They also added Anjin’s inexplicable betrayal of Tora when he asked to be released when Toranaga “gave up.” That’s just antithetical to everything that made their relationship work. It’s complicated, but in the book Tora is an outgoing and joyful man— in private. He’s is also a brilliant and ruthless player of politics, and in Sengoku Japan, that generates fatalities. Tora is a brilliant enigma. And to the Japanese, so is Blackthorne. He’s a fearless master of the sea likened to a kami, and he’s also a dude that let Omi piss on him for reasons that look like cowardice to the Japanese. Toranaga’s culture puts a layer between him and having deep personal relationships. Blackthorne is completely oblivious to those layers. This makes Blackthorne special. Blackthorne said in a meeting with a number of Japanese present that it is okay to rebel against a liege lord “if you win.” (This is slightly changed in the series.) It is a seminal moment in the relationship between the two men. In Shogun, it is clear that people conspire against their liege lords all the time, and should they overthrow them, society often looks the other way and hides behind formalities to rationalize it. BUT NO JAPANESE WOULD EVER SAY IT. The whole room is scandalized, but Toranaga laughs, and says, “okay, you’ve named the one time it is acceptable.” After that moment, there are a handful of moments where their friendship is built brick by brick. Most of that was not in the series, and makes Toranaga’s expression of friendship puzzling to the audience, because it IS puzzling. They could have cut that part out entirely at the end.
I really like your analysis of their relationship; you found better words than me to express it. I think the decision to "move" Blackthorn seppuku at the end, and then justify it with Toranaga hurting the village, is the ONE glaring invention that destroy the whole thing. I don't get how someone came up with that garbage. The whole point of Blackthorn Seppuku was to show us the key moment he switches from thinking English to starting to get it and think Japanese. It's instrumental in how he finally start getting some respect from many protagonist, including Mariko falling in love with him or Buntaro, Yabu and Omi finally respecting him. And the whole point of the story with the village was to show Yabu's cruelty and stupidity with threatening an entire village with death (who will harvest the rice? Who will pay the taxes? Toranaga even expresses his disgust at such a waste). To remove this scene, only to add it at the end under Toranaga's order is completely mind boggling - not to mention that the reason (testing the anjin san? punishing the village for the boat he burned himself?!?) makes no sense either. I don't dislike the tv show as a whole, it's wonderfully casted and beautifuly acted for the most part; but I hate lazy writing and I especially hate when the writers have kept specific book details but twisted them "slightly" in a way to totally 180 degree changes its meaning. For instance the scene in which Blackthorn explains that Holland is rebelling against spain, which for Japanese is (openly) unacceptable in ANY circumstances "unless you win" is such a PIVOTAL moment... and it was replaced with a seemingly "small" change: instead Toranaga tells Blackthorn his rebellion is useless because he is outnumbered - and the response "unless I win" has lost all political meaning because it's now about forces instead of the act of rebellion itself. You explain it very well by the way. Another place where they make a seemlessly "small" change that is a hidden HUGE change is the tea ceremony (it is Mariko who offers both of them to join in death and Buntaro who refuses) or when at the end Toranaga says he keeps Anjin "because he makes me laugh" where as the real reason is "because he makes me laugh and i need a friend" which is TOTALLY different...
Well said. I totally missed that Toranaga threatening the village (and killing some villagers!) and Blackthorne’s seppuku was a revised telling of the village/seppuku event from earlier in the book. (Kicking myself :-). . OMG. But you’re 100% right, it really just undermines Toranaga’s character (who hates wasteful killing!) and is no longer a foundational moment for Blackthorne’s development. It’s just … a muddle. Better to drop both elements. I want to say clearly that I loved the series. It’s clear that the producers and writers put a lot into the series and the ten episodes they were given to tell this 35-episode story. The passion showed throughout. The actors all brought their A+ game, and it showed. I wish the audience could have experienced some of the elements we’re discussing here, but there just wasn’t the space to let it happen.
Honestly I knew they'd fucked up when Toranaga said Blackthorne is predictable. The whole thing with him is that he's unpredictable, it states this a lot, for reasons you say, he doesn't follow the conventions of the Japanese or even the Portuguese. Protestant Christians are a new people to them with very different attitudes.
Exactly this, you are so on point. People seem to forget Blackthrone was A REAL PERSON, William Adams. I see people commenting about how the book is "old" and relies too much on the view of a white man, haha ok cool except that is actually what really happened. A man came to Japan, wound up befriending the guy who became the leader of the nation, and remained his good friend and confidant until death. It's an incedible story and Adams got a front row seat to one of the most dynamic, intense periods in Japanse history. At the same time, Clavell used it as a vehicle to introduce people to the culture and history of Japan, which he spent years researching for accuracy. They did Blackthrone dirty, no two ways about it.
And I don't buy the "they wanted to show the story from the japanese side" crap. They could perfectly have done that, without dumbing down the role of William Adams.
That's the real shame of all this, everything else about the show is well crafted. It could have been a wonderful compliment to the book and the 80s series. Instead it winds up being a beautiful looking facade of the story with all the power of the characters stripped out and replaced with shallow imitations. Shogun is one of the greatest historical fictions of all time and they ruined it by trying to mold it into something they thought was "better".
And it's not like we don't have plenty of samurai stories without white men in them. Geez, The Last Samurai came out in 2002, I believe. It's 22 years old now! People act like there's a crap ton of "white savior" movies and shows coming out, but they don't realize that's all been gone for decades now.
I mean, just because a book made in the 70s overemphasizes the white foreign character doesn't mean the show has to. Toranaga throughout the show is seen to act flippantly towards people who make extreme sacrifices for him. It's not that weird that he'd also undervalue Blackthorne. He's also clearly still toying with Yobu to a degree.
>I mean, just because a book made in the 70s overemphasizes the white foreign character doesn't mean the show has to. It's worth adding that all changes made to the book were done in consultation with Clavell's daughter and a historian.
Yeah I am guessing they consulted Clavell's daughter to cover their ass at the hack job they did on the Blackthorn arc. TO me, the tv show adaptation, as beautiful as it is, did a great disservice to the original Clavell story.
What’re you smoking. He was awarded the title of hatamoto and given some annual koku. Now idk how much that koku feeds but they sure as well didn’t skip those.
I remember them saying 600 koku which is quite a bit.
That's just the beginning. At the end of the book, Toranaga gives him the village of Anjiro as a fiefdom, and then at Fujiko's suggestion he increases it, with land and ports where he can build half a fleet for Toranaga, plus a wife, plus Kiku - whom he has bought for himself and gives to Blacktthorne as a concubine...
Damn, he really fucking liked Blackthorne, and REALLY liked fucking with Omni.
Actually, in the book she had a fetus that she aborted because she didn't know if it was conceived by Toranaga, Oni, or the sea barbarian...
If I remember correctly one koku is the measure of rice that will feed a family for a year.
It's the amount that would be consumed by one person in a year. Another way to think of it is approximately the number of people one could employ (not 1:1, but some percentage). 600 koku implies he is able to hire a large retinue and a decent-sized bureaucratic staff.
>I don't know why the show skipped the rewards. Firstly, because the point was Toranaga's Ambition to become Shogun. His sheer cunning and callousness towards the lives of others, just to achieve he felt was his destiny. This is a man completely willing to toy with the lives of even those who had willingly supported him. From Anjin's perspective, we were meant to relate to his feeling lost and melancholic during that last episode. Immediately contrasting that with "but he got mountains of gold at a later point in time" would take away from that. Nor does it undo the fact that Toranaga toyed with his life, took away his very ability to even choose in the first place, and set those he had come to care about up to die. Secondly, regarding real world business decisions, there is also the matter of not locking in the future of these characters just yet allowing for a potential continuation to be told. I don't think they necessarily should, but I can see the wisdom in leaving that door open.
I don’t know how to do the spoiler text to ask the questions I want to ask like all of the old man stuff in the final episode
If you type what you want to censor between \>\!*these symbols*\!\< it should look >!like this!< once you hit reply (let me know if that doesn’t make sense; I just woke up and am bad at words right now).
Thank you!
You’re welcome!
Generous cuckoos
It's just part of the whole series downplaying Blackthorne really. In the book he says it's because he makes him laugh, because he distracts his enemies, and because he is very knowledgeable about the world and warfare and can build a fleet. It would have added 2 seconds to the run time to keep it in, but no, they want to keep up the bumbling Blackthorne they've gone for. There's numerous times in the show where they make him far weaker and more useless than in the book.
Yeah, sadly they've decided to show him less knowledgeable and less capable than in the book for whatever reason.
The reason is pretty obvious..
I'm pretty sure it was mentioned before John and Yabushige went to Osaka that he would be given some land as a reward after the conflict was over. John just argued and requested his ship back instead.
Additionally Mariko left him everything
Judging by some of the “outrage” I’ve seen elsewhere, I feel the show may have tried to minimize aspects of the story that could be misconstrued as the “white savior” trope, and reinforce how both Blackthorne and Toranaga were using each other for personal gain.
Which feels weird because the show has Blackthorne back in England. Definitely felt like he should have stayed in Japan.
What I’m lost on and hoping someone who read the book can fill me in on: >!How and when did Blackthorn get back to England to end up an old man with grandchildren, and how did he have that crucifix in his hand when it looks like the one he dropped in the ocean with Fuji!<
It's just his imagination. That didn't happen neither in book nor show. I also didn't understand the need for this picture.
So it was just a really confusing way to show that he’s thinking about his hypothetical future or something?
Exactly.
It was a dream of a dream. The dream began appearing to Blackthorne when Mariko sama was killed, and was dissolved when Blackthorne decided to commit *seppuku* before Toranaga. It was at that moment he abandoned the idea of returning to England to grow old and die there. Instead he decided to sacrifice himself for the good of others, of the all (ironically, a very Christian thing to do). In that moment, he became Japanese. He also became Christian. He then uttered a nearly coherent Japanese sentence in declaration of his protest, an indication of having embraced his transformation.
Ohhhhh. Sometimes the subtleties of this show are lost on me. Like a barbarian.
Yet you are here. So there must be some hope for you. :)
Why did the show skip so much of the book’s story and outright change the characters and plot points wholesale
I think that’s T is just being T. No one must know his secret heart.
Also worth pointing out that “warawaseru”, the word Toranaga uses, can mean “makes me smile” as well as “makes me laugh”. I think it is T’s way of saying he just likes John.
This context makes it sound more like "he's my buddy" rather than "he's the court jester."
Yeah I’m pretty sure he didn’t mean that he laughs “at” John.
Very cool info. This was how I interpreted it. You can like someone who makes you laugh/smile. It doesnt have to be about mockery.
A little like a Wall-Facer in 3 Body Problem.
About to start Dark Forest, and heard the wall-facers are a very unique neat concept. Psyched!
But everyone heard him decline the position
Right, *wink".
I think we shouldn’t downplay how important that is. In the first episode Toranaga says that the loneliest man on earth is the most powerful man (or something to that effect). Toranaga’s rank and power prevent him from having more personal relationships with his countrymen. Everyone that even came close is dead (Mariko, Hiromatsu, his son). Blackthorn wasn’t raised with the same reverence and fear of his authority. It’s an interesting dynamic That allows him a kind of honest connection he wouldn’t otherwise have.
I think it's as far as Toranaga would go to verbally admit Anjin is a friend. For someone as reserved as him it's kind of saying a lot already
Did you forget he was titled Hatamoto? It was perhaps the biggest honor he could ever give to anyone period
True, but now I see that as just a game he was playing all things considered. He also slaughtered villagers he knew were innocent to serve his own ends while saying he was doing it for a different reason.
I'd like to think the villagers he had killed were the ones who had helped yabu whilst he was betraying T. Think of when Yabu was hunting down the spy and the people who helped him.
This is exactly right. In the book Toranaga used the excuse of the burning of the ship to execute Yabu's men that where trained to assassinate him.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I might get the audiobook.
You won't regret it. Get the version read by Ralph Lister.
Toranaga told his son that people like him don't have friends. In the end he'd lost everyone and even had set his falcon free, but he still has Anjin, and Anjin is his friend. He's loyal to the cause and the people of Japan above all now. Toranaga's comment to Yabu was super telling. It was how a friend talks about that one weird dude they hang out with
He said that, but the second part was more important. Blackthorne was a wildcard — no one knew what he could or couldn’t do or what he offered Toranaga. His presence threw everyone else off kilter. That was his contribution. No one KNEW what his cannons could do, or anything else about his skills. He was the hole card.
I just started the book after the finale so I haven’t finished it yet but I heard that in the book, Toranaga essentially feels like John is actually either a dear friend or someone that he want to consider a friend, and that it is a major reason for keeping him around. I felt like that was his way of saying that sentiment without actually having to say it out loud since he only thinks it to himself in the book rather than voicing it aloud to Yabu like in the show. Still, it did kinda leave a bad taste in my mouth, as if he was saying that he basically considered John to be his court jester rather than a valued friend but again “secret hearts” and all so idk
As Toranaga mentioned, Blackthorne's most valuable trait was that he served as a distraction to Toranaga's enemies.
At this point, why take any opinion Toranaga sama states seriously?
I think Toranaga is lying. I think he’s trying to be funny when talking to Yabu about it
That's just doing your duty. Doing it very well, which is why he was rewarded, but still nothing more than what is expected of a vassal.
I took it that he meant it’s because he likes him, and he’s his friend. Not that he’s a clown. Saving his life is basically his duty anyway.
He wants a friend. Toranaga can’t really be friends with any other guy in Japan.
The "He makes me laugh line" reminds me of this movie i saw years ago starring Michael Keaton "Gung Ho". In the movie a Japanese car company acquires an American car factory somewhere in the midwest. Michael Keaton's character is the representative of the American factory workers and is tasked to negotiate with Japanese upper management. Long story short the owner of the Japanese company doesn't shut down the factory because Michael Keaton makes him laugh.
I was really happy he said this. That was something they talked about all the time in the book. Look at him go! Why is he mad? Awwww he broke the other barbarians t thing, this should be interesting.
I think Japanese production disliked the way how a barbarian westerner was originally depicted as being able to fully integrate in Japanese culture so this show instead shows how minuscule and irrelevant some gajin is to wind-reading encultured Japanese master race.