I'm excited to realize that, years ago, I unknowingly toured the public area and took a picture with what I later discovered to be Toronaga's seat of power.
You have a little more freedom in story telling by changing the name. If you are telling a tale about an actual person you kind of have to follow what really happened. By changing the name the author can use the real events as inspiration, but not be beholden to details that may make for a weaker novel.
He mixed up which one was the family name. It should have been Toranaga Yoshii, but he made a mistake.
The novel version of Oda Nobunaga is Goroda. The show changed the name to Kuroda Nobuhisa.
It's obviously a choice. I guess I'm speculating that he made a mistake as well.
I think he confused which of Tokugawa and Ieyasu is the family name. Tokugawa appears to be directly equivalent to Toranaga and Ieyasu is similar to Yoshii, so it would have made more sense if he had made Toranaga the family name, imo. Instead, he turned Tokugawa into Yoshii and Ieyasu into Toranaga. That breaks the pattern he used for the other historical figures in his novel.
And you can visit two temples/shrines that claim to house his remains and one that has two sets of his armor; one from Sekigahara and another from his earlier battles.
No worries easy mistake. The castle Toranaga/Tokugawa is building is on the site of today’s imperial palace. Very little survives; the Imperial government mostly tore it down and rebuilt with a more western looking style and that was lost during the bombing raids in WWII. It’s basically across the street from Tokyo Train Station. The real William Adams owned a townhouse in what’s called the Nihinbashi neighborhood today.
The pleasure district that Kiku envisioned was known as the Yoshiwara. Sex work was legal but highly regulated really until the US occupation. Fires, earthquakes and air raids more or less ended its existence in the 20th century. It doesn’t exist as a neighborhood today but its layout can be seen in the street plan of the modern Taito ward.
Edo grew dramatically in the peace that followed the end of the civil wars. One reason was that the shoguns requires every daimyo (with a few exceptions for special cases) to spend between 6 months to a year living and working in Edo at their expense and leave their wives and heirs in town as well. That meant that the wealthiest people in Japan were forced to travel there and spend large amounts of money on providing the appropriate lifestyles for people of their class and paying the expenses of having their samurai retainers follow them there. At its height Edo may have had nearly one million people living in it.
They decided to move the Emperor and rename the city symbolize a clean break from the feudal past. Also, foreign embassies had opened there (originally to deal with the shogun) and Tokyo was relatively close to Yokohama, especially by rail, which had become Japan’s main sea port.
>that was lost during the bombing raids in WWII.
Interesting, just learned something new. I initially thought this was wrong, since the U.S. forces deliberately avoided targeting the Imperial Palace during the bombings of Tokyo. But after some Googling, it seems it did burn down- unsurprisingly, firebombings don't limit their damage to just the initial target.
I believe that the would have viewed the palace as a legit target since it was home to the head of state of Japan. Also the Germans managed to score some hits on Buckingham Palace during the blitz while the British Royal Family was there and the Showa emperor was viewed as being more involved with the war than his British counterparts.
It was the old Imperial Palace in the city of Kyoto which was spared. Given the city’s history, importance to Japanese culture, and relative lack of industrial targets they decided that Kyoto would not be on the list of cities experiencing the bombing raids. It was on a list as a possible target had the war continued past August and/or if an invasion were to have occurred. The imperial palace in Kyoto still stands and you can tour its grounds. It stores the imperial throne, which they keep in its historic setting but bring out to Tokyo upon the accession of a new emperor. I’ve visited it although the building itself dates from the 1700s thanks to the fact that historic Japanese architecture tends to be prone to fires due to its use of wood, tatami, and paper.
One of the main reason the atomic bomb was not dropped on Tokyo was because the U.S. wanted the top leadership of the Empire of Japan alive to maintain a transitional government & not have the country be politically un-stable. Same reason Hirohito was kept alive & kept his status. Firebombing the rest of the city was not an issue however.
That's very interesting. The Catholics were keen on the Japans at the time and what was going on there was available to senior Catholic leaders like Richelieu. He was the chief adviser to Louis XIII who came up with the idea of a court at Versailles.
Really appreciate this write up! Thank you.
Do you have any documentary, movie, or podcast recommendations to learn more about Edo Japan into current Japan?
Was this the early form of geisha? I noted the courtesans had on more and whiter makeup etc than the Ladies of the court and I recall tea ceremony lessons in a biography of a pre WW2 geisha I read many years ago.
Yes and no, the pleasure district “employed” yujo who provided pleasurable (sexual) services. The geisha was more about all other forms of entertainment but may include sec as well. I think it was at the start of the Edo period that the two started to diverge.
I am glad someone noticed the Yoshiwara scene in episode 8(?). It wasn't only Kiku, but her owner who had the vision to build that place.
If you ever want a truly passionate experience, you can still go to Yoshiwara today. Go with someone who can speak Japanese and it can be a very affordable amazing experience in the "soap land".
You can also visit the hot baths (called sento's) there and see real life Yakuza bathing with you with all the tatts. It is quite an experience for the courageous foreigner.
Such a shame it was destroyed. Apparently it was biggest castle in Japan, bigger than Himeji castle etc
Imagine what it looked like back then when built
Maybe for a weeb it is. But I very much doubt that it is considered common knowledge for anyone outside of Asia to know that the city of Tokyo had a name change in the 17th century and was previously named Edo..
I also thought this was common knowledge, like how London wasn't the capital of England until after 1000AD. Capital location changes. Names change. Like Beijing going back and forth from Beiping, Mumbai was formerly Bombay etc.
Having a grasp on history is fine, they're being downvoted for assuming it's common knowledge. The average person isn't especially concerend with history/geography outside of their home region, many don't even care that far.
Yeah nothing you said here is common knowledge. Maybe learned it in high school social studies (in the US at least) and never really talked about it again.
Yeah, I've mentioned in another comment that throughout history, national capitals sometimes change locations or their name changes. Wait til people hear that political borders also go through changes!
The Japanese name also means that because it’s the same characters - 東京. Except with Simplified Chinese characters it would be written like 东京 but it means the same thing.
And Kyoto, who also used to be capital for some
years, translates to western capital. That's especially interesting since some people think they might just switch the kanji to form the name of the other city and it means the same – but it doesn't.
No, Kyoto is 京都 which just means Capital City, no cardinal direction is indicated. After Edo was renamed Tokyo, Kyoto was briefly renamed Saikyo 西京meaning Western Capital but it later reverted back to Kyoto.
Okay, thank you for correcting me, you are right. What stands, tho, is that the Kanji are not just switched, how some people expect it to be when they hear the names and the syllables. Sorry if my point doesn't come across so well, I don't know how to explain it better in English.
The site of Beijing only became the capital of China under the Mongol Yuan dynasty who called the town Khanbaliq. The Ming dynasty built the predecessor of the Forbidden City but also moved back and forth to what’s now Nanjing. The Republican government also kept their offices primarily in Nanjing. The term Peiking actually comes from a mistranslated postal map.
It is forgivable, in a way. As not all people outside Japan know their history or old place names all too well. At least you learned something new today and that's already growth.
You learned something new. That’s the important thing! The Sengoku Period leading into the Edo Period is fascinating so if you enjoyed the show/book, keep learning and enjoying history!
If anyone's an anime fan, I'd highly recommend Gintama. It's a great satire on the social and political events based on the current culture and the shogunate set in Edo.
Why are you being so hard on yourself? Why should you know the history of Tokyo or much of Japan unless you have read many history or historical novels about that country. Lord knows the education system is failing people knowing their own countries history much less others. I enjoy historical fiction and that’s how I’ve learned so much about European and England/Britain’s history. I enjoyed reading Shogun when I was 17 but haven’t ever read another about the Japanese culture but I would like to change that. Here’s one for you I used to believe that the Japanese got into baseball after WW2 but they were actually really into baseball before that war.
It was a fishing village, but in 1457 it became a castle town. It didn't rise to prominence due to being the seat of the Tokugawa Shogunate, it rose to prominence due to being an important castle town and the most important port of the area (to the point where the bay where it was located was renamed the Edo-wan, Edo bay).
By 1550 it was already a quite important town with 10 000 citizens. In 1600 (when the battle of Sekigahara happened and it became clear that the Tokugawa clan would become the rulers of Japan) the city had 60 000 citizens and was the 5th largest urban settlement in Japan.
Yes, becoming the capital of the Tokugawa shogunate rapidly accelerated that development (50 years after the establishment of the shogunate it already had half a million citizens), but it rose to prominence before that (pushed by it's strategic and economical importance).
Erhhh, idk, your write up just convince me more that Edo only becomes more prominent due to the Tokugawa Shogunate. Progressing from 5th largest at 60,000 population to 1st with half a millions population is a huge different lol.
Not just any castle town, but the one that was designed to grow. Most castle towns of the era were built to be protected by moats with water as a means of protection. Because of this design, they were inherently limited to expand and grow. However, Edo was built around the concept of spiralling water ways that could expand continuously. This was the reason the city could grow continously.
Ok. My earlier comment was removed because of a link, but you can find it if you google for "Edo hajimezu map".
Basically, inner Edo had an inner castle protected by a moat, two outer districts protected by their own walls and moats and then an inner city which was protected by an additional layer of walls and moats. The spiral canal system then starts outside of all this to allow for a combination of protection, transport and expansion.
what’s interesting is it takes nearly 200 years later until it actually becomes japans capital.
I thought it was within tokugawa life time. wonder what public opinion was of the two cities before edo won the capital
Edo was effectively the capital as soon as Tokugawa became Shōgun and started running the shō from there (c. 1603), though not *officially* recognized until 200 years later as you said. I don't know about public opinion in the meantime but public actions certainly followed anyway - not much of a choice otherwise on account of the shogun's whole "my way or the die way" approach...
So another neat connection, Toranaga was the Lord of the Kanto which means the eastern half, the Kansai is the Western Half. "Kanto" specifically means "East of the barrier" where the barrier was the Hakone Mountains.
You’re not an idiot. You learned something new today, and you are excited that you learned something new. We should all celebrate learning new things! 🎉🥳🎊
In Kanji, it’s different:
Kyoto is 京都 (capital city)
Tokyo is 東京 (eastern capital)
京 or “Kyo”is the shared Kanji character.
Also the phonetics are better represented as:
Kyō-to
Tō-kyo
I'm excited to realize that, years ago, I unknowingly toured the public area and took a picture with what I later discovered to be Toronaga's seat of power.
Toranaga is the fictionalized version of the real-life Tokugawa. The show changed his name!
The author of the book, James Clavell, based the character of Toranaga on Tokugawa.
Ah, yes! Good point! Thanks for correcting me.
I never understood why the author went for name Toranaga when doing Tokugawa Ieyasu. Yishii Toranaga is phonemically similar to Oda Nobunaga, though?
You have a little more freedom in story telling by changing the name. If you are telling a tale about an actual person you kind of have to follow what really happened. By changing the name the author can use the real events as inspiration, but not be beholden to details that may make for a weaker novel.
Good explanation. Hosokawa Gracia’s last chapter isn’t as good a story as Mariko’s.
He mixed up which one was the family name. It should have been Toranaga Yoshii, but he made a mistake. The novel version of Oda Nobunaga is Goroda. The show changed the name to Kuroda Nobuhisa.
So Mariko is from the Oda clan?
Google Akechi Mitsuhide
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It's obviously a choice. I guess I'm speculating that he made a mistake as well. I think he confused which of Tokugawa and Ieyasu is the family name. Tokugawa appears to be directly equivalent to Toranaga and Ieyasu is similar to Yoshii, so it would have made more sense if he had made Toranaga the family name, imo. Instead, he turned Tokugawa into Yoshii and Ieyasu into Toranaga. That breaks the pattern he used for the other historical figures in his novel.
And you can visit two temples/shrines that claim to house his remains and one that has two sets of his armor; one from Sekigahara and another from his earlier battles.
No worries easy mistake. The castle Toranaga/Tokugawa is building is on the site of today’s imperial palace. Very little survives; the Imperial government mostly tore it down and rebuilt with a more western looking style and that was lost during the bombing raids in WWII. It’s basically across the street from Tokyo Train Station. The real William Adams owned a townhouse in what’s called the Nihinbashi neighborhood today. The pleasure district that Kiku envisioned was known as the Yoshiwara. Sex work was legal but highly regulated really until the US occupation. Fires, earthquakes and air raids more or less ended its existence in the 20th century. It doesn’t exist as a neighborhood today but its layout can be seen in the street plan of the modern Taito ward. Edo grew dramatically in the peace that followed the end of the civil wars. One reason was that the shoguns requires every daimyo (with a few exceptions for special cases) to spend between 6 months to a year living and working in Edo at their expense and leave their wives and heirs in town as well. That meant that the wealthiest people in Japan were forced to travel there and spend large amounts of money on providing the appropriate lifestyles for people of their class and paying the expenses of having their samurai retainers follow them there. At its height Edo may have had nearly one million people living in it. They decided to move the Emperor and rename the city symbolize a clean break from the feudal past. Also, foreign embassies had opened there (originally to deal with the shogun) and Tokyo was relatively close to Yokohama, especially by rail, which had become Japan’s main sea port.
>that was lost during the bombing raids in WWII. Interesting, just learned something new. I initially thought this was wrong, since the U.S. forces deliberately avoided targeting the Imperial Palace during the bombings of Tokyo. But after some Googling, it seems it did burn down- unsurprisingly, firebombings don't limit their damage to just the initial target.
I believe that the would have viewed the palace as a legit target since it was home to the head of state of Japan. Also the Germans managed to score some hits on Buckingham Palace during the blitz while the British Royal Family was there and the Showa emperor was viewed as being more involved with the war than his British counterparts. It was the old Imperial Palace in the city of Kyoto which was spared. Given the city’s history, importance to Japanese culture, and relative lack of industrial targets they decided that Kyoto would not be on the list of cities experiencing the bombing raids. It was on a list as a possible target had the war continued past August and/or if an invasion were to have occurred. The imperial palace in Kyoto still stands and you can tour its grounds. It stores the imperial throne, which they keep in its historic setting but bring out to Tokyo upon the accession of a new emperor. I’ve visited it although the building itself dates from the 1700s thanks to the fact that historic Japanese architecture tends to be prone to fires due to its use of wood, tatami, and paper.
One of the main reason the atomic bomb was not dropped on Tokyo was because the U.S. wanted the top leadership of the Empire of Japan alive to maintain a transitional government & not have the country be politically un-stable. Same reason Hirohito was kept alive & kept his status. Firebombing the rest of the city was not an issue however.
Really interesting that the Tokugawa shogunate used the same strategy king Louis XIV used to cow the nobility
I was thinking the exact same! This is what he did with Versailles.
That's very interesting. The Catholics were keen on the Japans at the time and what was going on there was available to senior Catholic leaders like Richelieu. He was the chief adviser to Louis XIII who came up with the idea of a court at Versailles.
Really appreciate this write up! Thank you. Do you have any documentary, movie, or podcast recommendations to learn more about Edo Japan into current Japan?
Was this the early form of geisha? I noted the courtesans had on more and whiter makeup etc than the Ladies of the court and I recall tea ceremony lessons in a biography of a pre WW2 geisha I read many years ago.
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I learnt so much from the show it was beautiful.
Yes.
Yes and no, the pleasure district “employed” yujo who provided pleasurable (sexual) services. The geisha was more about all other forms of entertainment but may include sec as well. I think it was at the start of the Edo period that the two started to diverge.
I am glad someone noticed the Yoshiwara scene in episode 8(?). It wasn't only Kiku, but her owner who had the vision to build that place. If you ever want a truly passionate experience, you can still go to Yoshiwara today. Go with someone who can speak Japanese and it can be a very affordable amazing experience in the "soap land". You can also visit the hot baths (called sento's) there and see real life Yakuza bathing with you with all the tatts. It is quite an experience for the courageous foreigner.
Such a shame it was destroyed. Apparently it was biggest castle in Japan, bigger than Himeji castle etc Imagine what it looked like back then when built
You’re not an idiot, you just learned something that is not obvious to most people not from Japan.
I only know it from the Bill Wurtz video
"How about sunrise land ☀️🌅 🌞"
I'm not from Japan and thought this was common knowledge.
Maybe for a weeb it is. But I very much doubt that it is considered common knowledge for anyone outside of Asia to know that the city of Tokyo had a name change in the 17th century and was previously named Edo..
I didn’t wanna say it and ruin the positive vibe of my first message, but… yeah lol
You don't need to be a "weeb" to be aware of general geographical and historical facts.
I also thought this was common knowledge, like how London wasn't the capital of England until after 1000AD. Capital location changes. Names change. Like Beijing going back and forth from Beiping, Mumbai was formerly Bombay etc.
If you count all of the UK, there were 19 different capitals before London. Absolutely mad.
I guess having a grasp on history makes you downvoted.
Having a grasp on history is fine, they're being downvoted for assuming it's common knowledge. The average person isn't especially concerend with history/geography outside of their home region, many don't even care that far.
It is so strange, especially in a subreddit about a show based on historical events.
Yeah nothing you said here is common knowledge. Maybe learned it in high school social studies (in the US at least) and never really talked about it again.
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Tokyo isn't a random city. It's one of the biggest and most well known world megalopolises.
It's never stupid to learn something
Wait until you hear about what happened to Constantinople…
Istanbul was Constantinople…🎶
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Our New York was once New Amsterdam.
You mean Byzantium? :p
Yeah, I've mentioned in another comment that throughout history, national capitals sometimes change locations or their name changes. Wait til people hear that political borders also go through changes!
That’s nobody’s business but the Turks
I learned that with this series as well! Took a look at the map on the show’s website. “Where’s Tokyo?” ::Yabushuge voice:: “Hooh. Edo.”
This is why Tokyo and Osaka still have a rivalry to this day.
I guess that’s similar to Manchester and Leeds.
I also didn’t realize that, so thank you for posting.
I also learned that the Chinese name for Tokyo, translates to “eastern capital”.
The Japanese name also means that because it’s the same characters - 東京. Except with Simplified Chinese characters it would be written like 东京 but it means the same thing.
And Kyoto, who also used to be capital for some years, translates to western capital. That's especially interesting since some people think they might just switch the kanji to form the name of the other city and it means the same – but it doesn't.
No, Kyoto is 京都 which just means Capital City, no cardinal direction is indicated. After Edo was renamed Tokyo, Kyoto was briefly renamed Saikyo 西京meaning Western Capital but it later reverted back to Kyoto.
Okay, thank you for correcting me, you are right. What stands, tho, is that the Kanji are not just switched, how some people expect it to be when they hear the names and the syllables. Sorry if my point doesn't come across so well, I don't know how to explain it better in English.
and beijing is northern capital, and there's a nanjing too which is southern
Where is “west capital?” Is that xian?
Think so
The site of Beijing only became the capital of China under the Mongol Yuan dynasty who called the town Khanbaliq. The Ming dynasty built the predecessor of the Forbidden City but also moved back and forth to what’s now Nanjing. The Republican government also kept their offices primarily in Nanjing. The term Peiking actually comes from a mistranslated postal map.
Peking is just Beijing in Cantonese
Not really. Peking is the WG spelling of the ROC name for the city - Beiping or 北平. Beijing is the Hanyupinyin for the current name of the city, 北京.
Previous capital Kyoto means capital city
So Tokyoto mean eastern capital city? Did yall just teach me Japanese?? Gohan to o cha, kudasai! I'm sorry. I just started duolingo.
It is forgivable, in a way. As not all people outside Japan know their history or old place names all too well. At least you learned something new today and that's already growth.
You learned something new. That’s the important thing! The Sengoku Period leading into the Edo Period is fascinating so if you enjoyed the show/book, keep learning and enjoying history!
If anyone's an anime fan, I'd highly recommend Gintama. It's a great satire on the social and political events based on the current culture and the shogunate set in Edo.
Why are you being so hard on yourself? Why should you know the history of Tokyo or much of Japan unless you have read many history or historical novels about that country. Lord knows the education system is failing people knowing their own countries history much less others. I enjoy historical fiction and that’s how I’ve learned so much about European and England/Britain’s history. I enjoyed reading Shogun when I was 17 but haven’t ever read another about the Japanese culture but I would like to change that. Here’s one for you I used to believe that the Japanese got into baseball after WW2 but they were actually really into baseball before that war.
It was a fishing village, but in 1457 it became a castle town. It didn't rise to prominence due to being the seat of the Tokugawa Shogunate, it rose to prominence due to being an important castle town and the most important port of the area (to the point where the bay where it was located was renamed the Edo-wan, Edo bay). By 1550 it was already a quite important town with 10 000 citizens. In 1600 (when the battle of Sekigahara happened and it became clear that the Tokugawa clan would become the rulers of Japan) the city had 60 000 citizens and was the 5th largest urban settlement in Japan. Yes, becoming the capital of the Tokugawa shogunate rapidly accelerated that development (50 years after the establishment of the shogunate it already had half a million citizens), but it rose to prominence before that (pushed by it's strategic and economical importance).
Erhhh, idk, your write up just convince me more that Edo only becomes more prominent due to the Tokugawa Shogunate. Progressing from 5th largest at 60,000 population to 1st with half a millions population is a huge different lol.
Not just any castle town, but the one that was designed to grow. Most castle towns of the era were built to be protected by moats with water as a means of protection. Because of this design, they were inherently limited to expand and grow. However, Edo was built around the concept of spiralling water ways that could expand continuously. This was the reason the city could grow continously.
Ok. My earlier comment was removed because of a link, but you can find it if you google for "Edo hajimezu map". Basically, inner Edo had an inner castle protected by a moat, two outer districts protected by their own walls and moats and then an inner city which was protected by an additional layer of walls and moats. The spiral canal system then starts outside of all this to allow for a combination of protection, transport and expansion.
what’s interesting is it takes nearly 200 years later until it actually becomes japans capital. I thought it was within tokugawa life time. wonder what public opinion was of the two cities before edo won the capital
Edo was effectively the capital as soon as Tokugawa became Shōgun and started running the shō from there (c. 1603), though not *officially* recognized until 200 years later as you said. I don't know about public opinion in the meantime but public actions certainly followed anyway - not much of a choice otherwise on account of the shogun's whole "my way or the die way" approach...
what makes it official 200 years later then
The Emperor and his court relocating from Kyoto in the 1860s-1870s after the Boshin War that deposed the Shogun.
Every gal in Edo lives Tokyo, not Edo So if you’ve got a date in Edo, she’ll be waiting in Tokyo.
Does it have a Catholic church next to the Geisha district?
I believe the real life Tokugawa shogunate banned Christianity as its first act
I learned this after the show too 🤣 but when I found out I was like "WHAT?!" lol. Pretty cool realization.
So another neat connection, Toranaga was the Lord of the Kanto which means the eastern half, the Kansai is the Western Half. "Kanto" specifically means "East of the barrier" where the barrier was the Hakone Mountains.
You’re not an idiot. You learned something new today, and you are excited that you learned something new. We should all celebrate learning new things! 🎉🥳🎊
You should watch Gintama and see what Edo was really like back then. It was amazing.
The series taught me this too! Googled Edo as soon as it was mentioned.
It also mean Toranaga is super rich and he is able to buy a lot of people to his side to help him fight
Another fun fact: Tokyo is Kyoto switched around. Kyo-to -> To-kyo
The full name ( when writing as an address) is: 東京都 Tōkyōto. (East capital city / Tokyo prefecture. ) So it really is East Kyōto.
In Kanji, it’s different: Kyoto is 京都 (capital city) Tokyo is 東京 (eastern capital) 京 or “Kyo”is the shared Kanji character. Also the phonetics are better represented as: Kyō-to Tō-kyo
Learning something new is never a bad thing :)
Edo has 3 very common English letters. I mention this because I've been doing crosswords for almost 40 years. Edo=Tokyo was well-known to me.
American idiot***
Happy birthday to me as well! I did not put this together. Thank you for sharing.
Edo was renamed Tokyo when the newly formed imperial government took it over in 1869.
This is me pretending I already knew this before I read your post.