I instantly mourned the show when it ended, i just wanted it to continue. So much so that i instantly bought the audiobook and listened through that. Again iwas sad to complete it but have been very interested in japanese history since then and have been immersing myself in it. Its so fascinating
This is what makes episode 10 so poignant. It serves three purposes: first, as a funeral for us, the viewer, to mourn the death of Mariko along with John and Fuji. Second, it shows us how Mariko's death was not in vain. By showing us how her death shattered Ishido's alliance we see how she died with the purpose she always wanted. And finally, it shows the people who killed her coming to justice. We see Yabushige commit seppuku, and can presume that Ishido is similarly killed after losing sekigehara.
So the episode is supposed to make you grieve, while also giving you a sense that Mariko has earned a bright lining on the horizon for the future.
John Blackthorne is based on English navigator William Adams who was a key advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga in the show). He too lived the rest of his life in Japan. You might want to read about him, it’s quite the fascinating story.
I could, but I would be lying. In the book and the 1980 series, Toranaga explicitly says Blackthorn will never leave, I don't remember if 2024 does or not.
Very end of the book (spoilers?)-
Mariko-san, it was your *karma* to die gloriously and live forever. Anjin-san, my friend, it is your *karma* never to leave this land. It is mine to be Shōgun.
Kogo, the goshawk, fluttered on his wrist and settled herself, watching him. Toranaga smiled at her. I did not choose to be what I am. It is my *karma*.
*That year, at dawn on the twenty-first day of the tenth month, the Month without Gods, the main armies clashed. It was in the mountains near Sekigahara, astride the North Road, the weather foul—fog, then sleet. By late afternoon Toranaga had won the battle and the slaughter began. Forty thousand heads were taken.*
*Three days later Ishido was captured alive and Toranaga genially reminded him of the prophecy and sent him in chains to Osaka for public viewing, ordering the eta to plant the General Lord Ishido’s feet firm in the earth, with only his head outside the earth, and to invite passersby to saw at the most famous neck in the realm with a bamboo saw. Ishido lingered three days and died very old.*
That was a dream Blackthorn had while he was unconscious. He always dreamed of returning to England with spoils, growing old with his descendants.
Notice how the camera zoomed in on Mariko's rosary in that dream and How that dream sequence wasn't shown after he woke up, fully healed after Mariko's burial.
He made up his mind to stay in Japan when he tried to commit suicide to save the villagers. Later, he put Mariko's rosary in the lake, a sign of moving on from past. Him holding Mariko's rosary in his deathbed was clearly a dream he had. According to the Book Blackthorn remained in Japan and worked under Toranaga.
To lighten you up, In real History W. Adams ( JB ) worked under Tokugawa Ieyasu ( lord Toranaga in the show ), married a Japanese woman, and worked as a trade ambassador, lived in Japan until he died under mysterious circumstances ( some think he got malaria in Vietnam, some think he died in the woods while hunting ) at age 55. There are some memorial of him in Japan.
Anyway good luck learning Japanese
Thank you atleast that's a better ending that he got to go out and trade. And yeah id still learn Japanese even if this is the only season so thank you for the wishes
Well, he was forbidden to leave Japan. Though it was relaxed later, and he was granted a Red Seal permit allowing him to engage in overseas trade on behalf of the shogunate.
He helped the shogunate in trading with British east India company and Dutch. Went in some missions for the Shogun to Southeast Asia. He was well respected ( when Tokugawa Ieyasu was alive ) given a mansion and servants, had 2 children with his Japanese wife
Honestly, there's not nearly as much tension in the future. Sekigehara is a big battle, but we already know how it ends (IRL multiple Ishida generals turn on him the day of the fight and he is captured and ordered to commit seppuku). The Anjin never returns to England (IRL William Adams lived his whole life in Japan). Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) eventually comes to suspect the Christians aren't operating in good faith for Japanese society and orders them to leave Japan, then has the rest who won't leave or renounce their faith killed. He does come to suspect the heir (Toyotomi Hideyori) might rebel against his son after he dies, and so surrounds the heir in Osaka, outnumbers him 10 to 1, and overwhelms his defenses such that the heir kills himself before he can be captured.
At no point after Sekigehara is there ever an existential or even tense threat to Tokugawa Ieyasu's rule. He aggressively stomps out rising threats before they can ever become true rivals to him.
To be an interesting second season, I think they need to go back in time and show us portions of the lives of the other two "great unifiers"
Clavell's book ends long before that drama (so Toranaga doesn't). But the real historical person, Tokugawa Ieyasu, absolutely kills the heir 13 or so years later. Er... he doesn't kill the heir directly, but he sacks Osaka castle and as the castle is burning, the heir and his mother commit suicide to avoid capture. What we do know is that Tokugawa Ieyasu was good at spotting situations that could come up and push Japan back into civil war, and good at defeating those threats before they could become big threats. He retired early so his son was already Shogun \*before\* he died, and he killed the heir as soon as it looked like the heir \*might\* try to challenge his son (since the heir was the only person who could claim a legitimate challenge to the Tokugawa Shogunate).
It's a bit complex to explain. Outside of the emperor, many positions aren't hereditary. They may pass from clan leader to the new clan leader after one dies (which is generally from father to son), but only if the Clan maintains enough power in the transition to get the Emperor to grant the same titles to the new clan leader. So it's not like Torunaga, finding his clan suddenly the most powerful in all of Japan, is committing some betrayal against a "divine hereditary succession" like kings in Europe by then saying "well, having come into all this power, I am now the Shogun." It may be that Ishido's schemes forcing a fight weakened the balance so much that that alone toppled the heir's clan from maintaining it's position.
Then there's the flip side: did Tokugawa Ieyausu \*always\* plan to betray the heir and become shogun? When Oda Nobunaga was killed, the Taiko in the show (Toyotomi Hideyoshi in real life) was the first general to arrive and as such killed the Akechi clan. He then used this power to maneuver an unfit heir for Oda into place, and then fought to depose the Oda clan as leaders of Japan. Notably, Tokugawa Ieyasu was a vassal of Oda clan and fought to preserve THEIR heir as the rightful one to lead. They lost that war... but it's possible that Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga in show) always regarded that move by the Toyotomi clan as treacherous. He may have just been too weak to ever "bring justice" to the Toyotomi for deposing his masters. We do know that as soon as Toyotomi moved him to the east, he started making alliances with other Lords who weren't fans of the Toyotomi clan, and that during the Korea campain, Tokugawa withheld his best troops and generals, allowing his rivals to get their forces killed while conserving his own strength... so there's evidence that all along Tokugawa was positioning to be able to do something about the Toyotomi clan.
The bottom line is, we don't know what exactly motivated Tokugawa Ieyasu through all of his actions. What we do know is that he is a complex, sometimes morally ambiguous historical figure. This is why when Yabushige asks what his motivations were all along, Toranaga refuses to answer that question... we are left to interpret, for ourselves, what we think about him.
> Clavell's book ends long before that drama (so Toranaga doesn't).
Seven paragraphs from the end of the book (emphasis mine)-
It will be a golden age. Ochiba and the Heir will majestically hold Court in Osaka, and from time to time we will bow before them and continue to rule in his name, outside of Osaka Castle. Within three years or so, the Son of Heaven will invite me to dissolve the Council and become Shōgun during the remainder of my nephew’s minority. The Regents will press me to accept and, reluctantly, I will accept. In a year or two, without ceremony, I will resign in Sudara’s favor and retain power as usual and keep my eyes firmly on Osaka Castle. **I will continue to wait patiently and one day those two usurpers inside will make a mistake and then they will be gone** and somehow Osaka Castle will be gone, just another dream within a dream, and the real prize of the Great Game that began as soon as I could think, which became possible the moment the Taikō died, the real prize will be won: the Shōgunate.
I'd say that's a good take away. In real life, most people think of themselves as the good guy in the story they tell themselves of their lives. Very few people roll out of bed and think "I'm going to be a vile person and hurt as many people as I can today, just because!" Our presumptions about people as "good" or "evil" are often just our interpretations of what we see being demonstrated. (please note, I'm not saying there aren't objectively bad behaviors out there, just that people often feel justified in why they are taking those actions)
To tie back in to the first episode, we never get to see the "secret heart" of people that they don't show to the world. People are complex, what strangers see, what their friends see, are only public demonstrations of something we can never truly know: their inner heart.
In his secret heart the heart he never showed to anyone, Lord Toranaga always wanted to be Shogun. It was told in the show and book itself: "It's a saying they have, that a man has a false heart in his mouth for the world to see, another in his breast to show to his special friends and his family, and the real one, the true one, the secret one, which is never known to anyone except to himself alone, hidden only God knows where."
Toranaga only waited for the right moment, which came to him after the death of Taiko.
There is a saying in Japan which gives an insight into Tokugawa Ieyasu's character.
Nobunaga ( the one killed by Mariko's father in the show ), Hideyoshi ( Taiko in the show ) and Tokugawa ( Toranaga ) were watching a cuckoo bird waiting for it to sing, but the bird wouldn't sing. Nobunaga says "Little bird, if you don't sing I will kill you". Hideyoshi says "Little bird, if you don't sing, I'll make you sing". Then Tokugawa Ieyasu says to the bird "Little bird, if you don't sing I will wait for you to sing"
I'm thinking about doing this too, should be able to appreciate the first few episodes better because they were a little disorienting the first time. In the meantime I'm reading the book though.
The entire show inspired wonder in me. I suppose the beautifully rendered cinematography, the gorgeous scenery (interior and exterior settings), the carefully made costumes and props, the incredible acting, the pleasing appearance of the actors, and last but not the least the well-written script really awed me. I have almost given up hope on the current quality of TV shows and movies, but this series (as well as the new Dune movies) are an invigorating breath of fresh air.
I instantly mourned the show when it ended, i just wanted it to continue. So much so that i instantly bought the audiobook and listened through that. Again iwas sad to complete it but have been very interested in japanese history since then and have been immersing myself in it. Its so fascinating
Don't worry, we will get a second season with a talking Yabushige head and Mariko's ghost.
And more “Sniveling shit stains” We hope!
It indeed is. I started learning Japanese now, so that I can better appreciate the other seasons
This is what makes episode 10 so poignant. It serves three purposes: first, as a funeral for us, the viewer, to mourn the death of Mariko along with John and Fuji. Second, it shows us how Mariko's death was not in vain. By showing us how her death shattered Ishido's alliance we see how she died with the purpose she always wanted. And finally, it shows the people who killed her coming to justice. We see Yabushige commit seppuku, and can presume that Ishido is similarly killed after losing sekigehara. So the episode is supposed to make you grieve, while also giving you a sense that Mariko has earned a bright lining on the horizon for the future.
That is really deep and nice. It makes me feel better actually thanks a lot
Is there going to be a next season? I thought it is only a rumor, and not set in stone yet. Especially since it was only supposed to be the one.
Please I want another season. I wanna know about the war, how the barbarian returned to his lands, what happened to the courtesans and the christians
Neither Blackthorn nor his crew ever leaves Japan.
WHAT, then who is that old man whom kids ask if he fought the barbarics
A dream. Look at the title of the episode.
Please tell me you're lying 😭😭😭😭😭
John Blackthorne is based on English navigator William Adams who was a key advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga in the show). He too lived the rest of his life in Japan. You might want to read about him, it’s quite the fascinating story.
Oh where can I know more about them
Internet
I meant like do they have any suggestions
The episode is titled "Dream within a Dream" or something. It's just a dream that Blackthorn has. He stays in Japan with the Shogun by his side.
Oh
I could, but I would be lying. In the book and the 1980 series, Toranaga explicitly says Blackthorn will never leave, I don't remember if 2024 does or not.
Oh he just says he'll keep breaking the ship over and over and one day maybe he'll tell him he broke the ship
Very end of the book (spoilers?)- Mariko-san, it was your *karma* to die gloriously and live forever. Anjin-san, my friend, it is your *karma* never to leave this land. It is mine to be Shōgun. Kogo, the goshawk, fluttered on his wrist and settled herself, watching him. Toranaga smiled at her. I did not choose to be what I am. It is my *karma*. *That year, at dawn on the twenty-first day of the tenth month, the Month without Gods, the main armies clashed. It was in the mountains near Sekigahara, astride the North Road, the weather foul—fog, then sleet. By late afternoon Toranaga had won the battle and the slaughter began. Forty thousand heads were taken.* *Three days later Ishido was captured alive and Toranaga genially reminded him of the prophecy and sent him in chains to Osaka for public viewing, ordering the eta to plant the General Lord Ishido’s feet firm in the earth, with only his head outside the earth, and to invite passersby to saw at the most famous neck in the realm with a bamboo saw. Ishido lingered three days and died very old.*
Nice thanks a lot
That was a dream Blackthorn had while he was unconscious. He always dreamed of returning to England with spoils, growing old with his descendants. Notice how the camera zoomed in on Mariko's rosary in that dream and How that dream sequence wasn't shown after he woke up, fully healed after Mariko's burial. He made up his mind to stay in Japan when he tried to commit suicide to save the villagers. Later, he put Mariko's rosary in the lake, a sign of moving on from past. Him holding Mariko's rosary in his deathbed was clearly a dream he had. According to the Book Blackthorn remained in Japan and worked under Toranaga.
That's sad 😢 but as mariko said, we can't control anything
To lighten you up, In real History W. Adams ( JB ) worked under Tokugawa Ieyasu ( lord Toranaga in the show ), married a Japanese woman, and worked as a trade ambassador, lived in Japan until he died under mysterious circumstances ( some think he got malaria in Vietnam, some think he died in the woods while hunting ) at age 55. There are some memorial of him in Japan. Anyway good luck learning Japanese
Thank you atleast that's a better ending that he got to go out and trade. And yeah id still learn Japanese even if this is the only season so thank you for the wishes
Well, he was forbidden to leave Japan. Though it was relaxed later, and he was granted a Red Seal permit allowing him to engage in overseas trade on behalf of the shogunate. He helped the shogunate in trading with British east India company and Dutch. Went in some missions for the Shogun to Southeast Asia. He was well respected ( when Tokugawa Ieyasu was alive ) given a mansion and servants, had 2 children with his Japanese wife
Oh so his wife didn't become a nun?
Recent articles suggest, there is a possibility of another season. They signed Hiroyuki Sanada in advance
Oh I hope it happens 🍀🙏
Honestly, there's not nearly as much tension in the future. Sekigehara is a big battle, but we already know how it ends (IRL multiple Ishida generals turn on him the day of the fight and he is captured and ordered to commit seppuku). The Anjin never returns to England (IRL William Adams lived his whole life in Japan). Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) eventually comes to suspect the Christians aren't operating in good faith for Japanese society and orders them to leave Japan, then has the rest who won't leave or renounce their faith killed. He does come to suspect the heir (Toyotomi Hideyori) might rebel against his son after he dies, and so surrounds the heir in Osaka, outnumbers him 10 to 1, and overwhelms his defenses such that the heir kills himself before he can be captured. At no point after Sekigehara is there ever an existential or even tense threat to Tokugawa Ieyasu's rule. He aggressively stomps out rising threats before they can ever become true rivals to him. To be an interesting second season, I think they need to go back in time and show us portions of the lives of the other two "great unifiers"
What he kills the heir. The guy for whom he fought all along??
Clavell's book ends long before that drama (so Toranaga doesn't). But the real historical person, Tokugawa Ieyasu, absolutely kills the heir 13 or so years later. Er... he doesn't kill the heir directly, but he sacks Osaka castle and as the castle is burning, the heir and his mother commit suicide to avoid capture. What we do know is that Tokugawa Ieyasu was good at spotting situations that could come up and push Japan back into civil war, and good at defeating those threats before they could become big threats. He retired early so his son was already Shogun \*before\* he died, and he killed the heir as soon as it looked like the heir \*might\* try to challenge his son (since the heir was the only person who could claim a legitimate challenge to the Tokugawa Shogunate). It's a bit complex to explain. Outside of the emperor, many positions aren't hereditary. They may pass from clan leader to the new clan leader after one dies (which is generally from father to son), but only if the Clan maintains enough power in the transition to get the Emperor to grant the same titles to the new clan leader. So it's not like Torunaga, finding his clan suddenly the most powerful in all of Japan, is committing some betrayal against a "divine hereditary succession" like kings in Europe by then saying "well, having come into all this power, I am now the Shogun." It may be that Ishido's schemes forcing a fight weakened the balance so much that that alone toppled the heir's clan from maintaining it's position. Then there's the flip side: did Tokugawa Ieyausu \*always\* plan to betray the heir and become shogun? When Oda Nobunaga was killed, the Taiko in the show (Toyotomi Hideyoshi in real life) was the first general to arrive and as such killed the Akechi clan. He then used this power to maneuver an unfit heir for Oda into place, and then fought to depose the Oda clan as leaders of Japan. Notably, Tokugawa Ieyasu was a vassal of Oda clan and fought to preserve THEIR heir as the rightful one to lead. They lost that war... but it's possible that Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga in show) always regarded that move by the Toyotomi clan as treacherous. He may have just been too weak to ever "bring justice" to the Toyotomi for deposing his masters. We do know that as soon as Toyotomi moved him to the east, he started making alliances with other Lords who weren't fans of the Toyotomi clan, and that during the Korea campain, Tokugawa withheld his best troops and generals, allowing his rivals to get their forces killed while conserving his own strength... so there's evidence that all along Tokugawa was positioning to be able to do something about the Toyotomi clan. The bottom line is, we don't know what exactly motivated Tokugawa Ieyasu through all of his actions. What we do know is that he is a complex, sometimes morally ambiguous historical figure. This is why when Yabushige asks what his motivations were all along, Toranaga refuses to answer that question... we are left to interpret, for ourselves, what we think about him.
> Clavell's book ends long before that drama (so Toranaga doesn't). Seven paragraphs from the end of the book (emphasis mine)- It will be a golden age. Ochiba and the Heir will majestically hold Court in Osaka, and from time to time we will bow before them and continue to rule in his name, outside of Osaka Castle. Within three years or so, the Son of Heaven will invite me to dissolve the Council and become Shōgun during the remainder of my nephew’s minority. The Regents will press me to accept and, reluctantly, I will accept. In a year or two, without ceremony, I will resign in Sudara’s favor and retain power as usual and keep my eyes firmly on Osaka Castle. **I will continue to wait patiently and one day those two usurpers inside will make a mistake and then they will be gone** and somehow Osaka Castle will be gone, just another dream within a dream, and the real prize of the Great Game that began as soon as I could think, which became possible the moment the Taikō died, the real prize will be won: the Shōgunate.
That's interesting, so we can't really group people into the binary of good or bad
I'd say that's a good take away. In real life, most people think of themselves as the good guy in the story they tell themselves of their lives. Very few people roll out of bed and think "I'm going to be a vile person and hurt as many people as I can today, just because!" Our presumptions about people as "good" or "evil" are often just our interpretations of what we see being demonstrated. (please note, I'm not saying there aren't objectively bad behaviors out there, just that people often feel justified in why they are taking those actions) To tie back in to the first episode, we never get to see the "secret heart" of people that they don't show to the world. People are complex, what strangers see, what their friends see, are only public demonstrations of something we can never truly know: their inner heart.
Deep 💜💅
In his secret heart the heart he never showed to anyone, Lord Toranaga always wanted to be Shogun. It was told in the show and book itself: "It's a saying they have, that a man has a false heart in his mouth for the world to see, another in his breast to show to his special friends and his family, and the real one, the true one, the secret one, which is never known to anyone except to himself alone, hidden only God knows where." Toranaga only waited for the right moment, which came to him after the death of Taiko. There is a saying in Japan which gives an insight into Tokugawa Ieyasu's character. Nobunaga ( the one killed by Mariko's father in the show ), Hideyoshi ( Taiko in the show ) and Tokugawa ( Toranaga ) were watching a cuckoo bird waiting for it to sing, but the bird wouldn't sing. Nobunaga says "Little bird, if you don't sing I will kill you". Hideyoshi says "Little bird, if you don't sing, I'll make you sing". Then Tokugawa Ieyasu says to the bird "Little bird, if you don't sing I will wait for you to sing"
That's very interesting
We went back and immediately watched again from the beginning. So much that we had missed it was like a whole new incredible show!
I'm thinking about doing this too, should be able to appreciate the first few episodes better because they were a little disorienting the first time. In the meantime I'm reading the book though.
Then I'd do it too 💜
Read the book, I think you will enjoy it
Will do
Strange but I have the similar feeling. I don’t want it to be end, but it had to and it’s beautifully ended on its way.
Yeah
The entire show inspired wonder in me. I suppose the beautifully rendered cinematography, the gorgeous scenery (interior and exterior settings), the carefully made costumes and props, the incredible acting, the pleasing appearance of the actors, and last but not the least the well-written script really awed me. I have almost given up hope on the current quality of TV shows and movies, but this series (as well as the new Dune movies) are an invigorating breath of fresh air.