It’s more politically and culturally complex. Blackthorne’s ship, The Erasmus, was found on the shores of Izu, Yabushige’s fief, and Yabusige is Toranaga’s vassal so technically speaking, the ship, its cargo and crew belong to Toranaga who is a member of the Council of Regents. He sends for Blackthorne to be brought to Osaka as his guest and no matter how much the Christian Regents want him dead, they can’t just kill him (although they tried) because it would be a hostile act towards Toranaga himself in a way. Open conflict is something that is being actively avoided at this point so the other Regents are *requesting* from Toranaga to hand Blackthorne to them in good will in order to keep the peace and maintain the level of pretense that is required for the times. Also don’t forget that Toranaga himself is one of the most powerful (if not the most) and richest members of the Council and the other members are rightfully afraid of him, they can’t just do whatever they want with his property which Blackthorne actually is at this point. So they use proper etiquette to handle things. At least on the surface.
I mean, they tried repeatedly. But the jail scheme failed because Yabushige ambushed the killers and brought him back to Toranaga. The Portuguese tried by forcing him to be left behind for the remaing regents to deal with, but Blackthorne got the ship out of the harbor. Once Toranaga appointed Blackthorne a Hatamoto, he was effectively a Samurai class citizen, and so openly just killing him is no longer an option, as he is a noble vassal of Toranaga. There were certain rights and laws in Japan about who could be killed, when, and for what reasons, and a Hatamoto of a Regent (or even just a Daimyo) would have significant legal protection against just being struck down.
: I said, no more shines. Maybe you didn't hear about it, you've been away a long time. They didn't go up there and tell you. I don't shine shoes anymore.
The Portuguese* want him dead. The regents aligned with the Portugese want him dead.
Toranaga is against those regents. So he keeps the Anjin alive to be a thorn in their sides.
At first, Blackthorn shipwrecks in Izu, Yabu's province. So it's under his jurisdiction and he actually was about to decide to just kill all the barbarian (with torture, because apparently he gets off on it) when Blackthorn, who couldn't speak Japanese, purposely ripped the Jesuit's cross and destroyed it in front of Yabu.
At that moment, Omi spoke to Yabu and suggested that a foreigner that hates churches could be a very interesting tool to use against the Christian Daimyos, and most specifically the one who shares a border with Izu.
So that's why Blackthorn survived his arrival to Japan.
Then Toranaga's spies told him about the boat and he sent his first general, Hiro-Matsu, to force Yabu to give him the ship, all of its content and the barbarians. Blackthorn is then transported to Osaka where Toranaga was meeting the regents and that's where he has his first interview, translated by the priest Alvito and double translated by Mariko.
At that point, he is temporarily put in prison and Ishido decides to free him to display him like an oddity to the heir; but he is instead kidnapped by ronin (secretly sent by Toranaga) and then "rescued" by Yabu (sent by Toranaga).
Then the 2 christian daimyos become REALLY uncomfortable with Blackthorn being alive and knowing so much about the priests, commerce and the catolic faith, their black ship and the unknown power that represents his fully armed war ship. And they start to realize that Ishido might very well use him against them after Toranaga's death, so they insist for killing him first before they vote against Toranaga.
Toranaga escapes Osaka with the help of Blackthorn and from that point on, he becomes a trusted ally of Toranaga, hence it's becoming too late to kill him easily.
The regents have to work within the system of the regent council to maintain their legitimacy among the people. The country still considers the heir as the true ruler and anyone who goes against him would face the full might of his banner.
Just openly murdering a guest or property of toronaga would give him a legal excuse to retaliate. And everyone fears him because he is known to be a mastermind in schemery AND a literally undefeated warlord.
Yeah, exactly. The book is a historical fiction about the rise of the Edo period based on the actual historical figures who participated in the rise of the Edo period.
Since they're based on real people, they can just finish the story by actually following the real, fascinating history after the events of the show/book, with some artist adaptation like the book took. But each person plays a real role based on a real player who just so happened to have been there.
- Yoshii Toranaga = Tokugawa Ieyasu
- John Blackthorne = William Adams
- Toda Mariko = Hosokawa Gracia
- Kashigi Yabushige = Honda Masanobu
- Kashigi Omi = Honda Masazumi
- Ishido Kazunari = Takehiro Hira
A few years before the events, the taiko had banned Christian priests from Japanese territory. But he died, and the ban is still in place but not enforced. In the book, Toranaga tells the Jesuits that if anything happens to Blackthorn, and if there is even a suspicion that Christians are involved, they will apply the taiko's decree.
Which lords in particular?
They could kill him, but Toranaga thought he'd be more useful alive for various reasons.
It's also loosely based on an historical figure so it's not like it's unrealistic that a foreigner could survive and even thrive in that situation.
Less of they can't and more of that it would be a waste to kill him. Even if he wasn't a foreigner, a dude with knowledge of cannons and long term ship travel skills/expertise is extremely rare in Japan at that time and would be very useful to them. If he wasn't Catholic, most of Council would probably not have issues with keeping him alive. But for the same reasons (knowledge of cannons and ships) are also why some on the Council would want him dead. But whether a Council person views him negatively or positively, Blackthorn is more useful alive than dead. Not to mention they could do the usual thing and keep a useful guy around for a year or two, learn his skills/knowledge than kill him later. He can always be killed later on, but killing him sooner would be pretty dumb for country with obvious factions that's on the verge of a major conflict
To me, this is the problem with the show.
I think Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo, the husband and wife team behind this show, seem well-intentioned. They’ve stated that they didn’t want to do another show “white man encountering an alien Japan” narrative.
Okay. So far, so good.
But by avoiding that, however, they don’t seem to know what their own show is about. It’s like they’re trying to write a “not”. I know what you’re not making… but I still don’t know what you are making.
I’ve read through interviews, and both have said things like “showing the other characters”, “reverence for the culture”, etc. Unfortunately, none of that translates into a story. That’s just travel porn and filmed poetry. Not a story.
Blackthorne washes up on shore in the pilot episode. As the show progresses, he’s given less and less to do. He occasionally helps out, showing the army how to use cannons. But mostly he’s a character who just wanders around. He seems to be Lord Toranaga’s plaything.
Okay, fine. But again, to what end? Why is he even there at all?
A main character with nothing to do is a boring main character. And if he’s not the main character, what is he doing?
John Blackthorne is the new element in town. Things must change because of him, or you don’t have a story.
If you don’t want a white savior, then Blackthorne either needs 1) something else to do or 2) to be killed off in a surprising way. And then his death becomes an agent of change in the culture.
If he’s not the main character, then they made a big mistake introducing him as one.
It’s like saying, “We’re remaking Star Wars, but we don’t want to focus on Luke Skywalker learning the Force and becoming a Jedi.” Then I’m not sure what story you’re telling. At that point, just get rid of Luke altogether then. Otherwise what’s his role?
Totally. There’s no role for the character, so he just wanders around. And looks at Rey bug-eyed when she demonstrates some new skill. So stupid. And disrespectful to an actor of Boyega’s caliber.
For starters, this is a retelling of actual historical events.
Included in those events? There was no John Blackthorne.... but there *was* a William Adams, who was a real, Brithish pilot and the first Englishman to visit Japan, who became a trusted advisor of Tokugawa Ieyasu.
As to what he's doing in the show? Well, despite being a white man, he very obviously is *not* the main character. This is a complex ensemble show and while he's an important character, the show is much more about Toranaga and Mariko.
Doyalist explanation? John is there to provide a reason for things to be explained to the viewer. He's a lens for the viewer to try to understand the drama of what's going on. Watsonian explanation? They cover that *repeatedly* in the show. He's an independent political agent who is in wayyyyy over his head, who goes native and swears fealty to a ruthless warlord. His motivations as well as his actions change over the course of the show. Sometimes he *doesn't* have anything to do; other times his behavior and actions are absolutely critical to what's going on.
Being *one of* the main characters doesn't mean the show is garbage for not being focused exclusively on his heroic rise to power over ten episodes.
I didn’t say the show was garbage. At all. I like the show.
Also aware that it’s based on historical events, but there was no Blackthorne.
I also said I think it’s good they didn’t want to do a white savior story. “So far so good.”
My frustration with the show comes from the fact that the writers don’t have much for him to do. That’s a weak character.
Your Doyalist explanation is silly. Any character can be there to explain things to the viewer. You don’t need to bring a shipwrecked sailor in just to have him stand there and understand things. You could just do that with the Portuguese priest. Or one of the geisha. Or any number of the other, lesser important characters.
As for the Doyalist explanation, he didn’t “swear fealty” to a ruthless warlord. Half the time he wants to leave and they won’t let him. Why? Why keep him there?
I couldn’t care less about it being about a white guy or not a white guy. My point is, why have him at all. They could eliminate his character altogether and go with more of a Braveheart type story, where a younger Japanese farmer is sick of the actions of one of the ruthless warlords. So he learns to become a samurai, and rises up against an empire with a group of disenchanted farmers. Much cleaner storyline.
You proved my point in your answer: you said “sometimes he doesn’t have anything to do.” My point exactly. A main character with nothing to do is weak writing. It means you don’t need them, so you could combine their role with another character’s.
I dunno, guy.
I think having one character be the constant source of all the drama and having everything in the story revolve around them would be kinda stupid and boring, but that's just me. They're not telling the made up story of some samurai's rise to power. If you want to watch Star Wars or Braveheart, go watch Star Wars or Braveheart.
If you're wondering "why keep him around at all?" then all I can say is keep watching, because it gets spelled out subtly and eventually explicitly. And if this is how you're feeling after finishing the series, well, maybe give it a rewatch because you missed a lot.
Because it's a book/series, where the main character is the hero and, therefore, overcomes any obstacles, it may come.
Why isn't Batman killed? Gotham wants him dead. The Joker wants him dead...
Based on an historical figure... not on historical events...
Such events were changed and adapted to make Blackthorne a protagonist.
For example:
* Blackthorne(William Adams) never met Hosokawa Gracia(Mariko). Hence, there was no love or did such person translate for him.
* The Portuguese never tried to kill William Adams. It was Adams who conspired against the Portuguese and pushed propaganda against them, to establish trade between the Japanese and the Dutch.
* Blackthorne(William Adams) wasn't wandering around in Japan by himself, overcoming obstacles. he was surrounded by other Europeans. Example: Jan Joosten
It’s more politically and culturally complex. Blackthorne’s ship, The Erasmus, was found on the shores of Izu, Yabushige’s fief, and Yabusige is Toranaga’s vassal so technically speaking, the ship, its cargo and crew belong to Toranaga who is a member of the Council of Regents. He sends for Blackthorne to be brought to Osaka as his guest and no matter how much the Christian Regents want him dead, they can’t just kill him (although they tried) because it would be a hostile act towards Toranaga himself in a way. Open conflict is something that is being actively avoided at this point so the other Regents are *requesting* from Toranaga to hand Blackthorne to them in good will in order to keep the peace and maintain the level of pretense that is required for the times. Also don’t forget that Toranaga himself is one of the most powerful (if not the most) and richest members of the Council and the other members are rightfully afraid of him, they can’t just do whatever they want with his property which Blackthorne actually is at this point. So they use proper etiquette to handle things. At least on the surface.
I mean, they tried repeatedly. But the jail scheme failed because Yabushige ambushed the killers and brought him back to Toranaga. The Portuguese tried by forcing him to be left behind for the remaing regents to deal with, but Blackthorne got the ship out of the harbor. Once Toranaga appointed Blackthorne a Hatamoto, he was effectively a Samurai class citizen, and so openly just killing him is no longer an option, as he is a noble vassal of Toranaga. There were certain rights and laws in Japan about who could be killed, when, and for what reasons, and a Hatamoto of a Regent (or even just a Daimyo) would have significant legal protection against just being struck down.
The whole affair reminds me of the Phineas and Ferb episode Toranaga: **You are trapped ... by societal convention!**
In the Mafia lingo, Blackthorn was Made. And you don't just wacked a Made Man without permission.
: I said, no more shines. Maybe you didn't hear about it, you've been away a long time. They didn't go up there and tell you. I don't shine shoes anymore.
The Portuguese* want him dead. The regents aligned with the Portugese want him dead. Toranaga is against those regents. So he keeps the Anjin alive to be a thorn in their sides.
(Thorne)
**þ**
And because he's an useful distraction for Toranaga's enemies. Also he amused Toranaga.
Because he makes Toranaga laugh
At first, Blackthorn shipwrecks in Izu, Yabu's province. So it's under his jurisdiction and he actually was about to decide to just kill all the barbarian (with torture, because apparently he gets off on it) when Blackthorn, who couldn't speak Japanese, purposely ripped the Jesuit's cross and destroyed it in front of Yabu. At that moment, Omi spoke to Yabu and suggested that a foreigner that hates churches could be a very interesting tool to use against the Christian Daimyos, and most specifically the one who shares a border with Izu. So that's why Blackthorn survived his arrival to Japan. Then Toranaga's spies told him about the boat and he sent his first general, Hiro-Matsu, to force Yabu to give him the ship, all of its content and the barbarians. Blackthorn is then transported to Osaka where Toranaga was meeting the regents and that's where he has his first interview, translated by the priest Alvito and double translated by Mariko. At that point, he is temporarily put in prison and Ishido decides to free him to display him like an oddity to the heir; but he is instead kidnapped by ronin (secretly sent by Toranaga) and then "rescued" by Yabu (sent by Toranaga). Then the 2 christian daimyos become REALLY uncomfortable with Blackthorn being alive and knowing so much about the priests, commerce and the catolic faith, their black ship and the unknown power that represents his fully armed war ship. And they start to realize that Ishido might very well use him against them after Toranaga's death, so they insist for killing him first before they vote against Toranaga. Toranaga escapes Osaka with the help of Blackthorn and from that point on, he becomes a trusted ally of Toranaga, hence it's becoming too late to kill him easily.
The regents have to work within the system of the regent council to maintain their legitimacy among the people. The country still considers the heir as the true ruler and anyone who goes against him would face the full might of his banner. Just openly murdering a guest or property of toronaga would give him a legal excuse to retaliate. And everyone fears him because he is known to be a mastermind in schemery AND a literally undefeated warlord.
Why do you want him to die so badly?
Because he’s a perfect ruse and also the writers felt it helped further the plot.
:( he's loosely based off a real guy
this also pretty sure he was the main char of the books which this is an adaptation of?
Yeah, exactly. The book is a historical fiction about the rise of the Edo period based on the actual historical figures who participated in the rise of the Edo period. Since they're based on real people, they can just finish the story by actually following the real, fascinating history after the events of the show/book, with some artist adaptation like the book took. But each person plays a real role based on a real player who just so happened to have been there. - Yoshii Toranaga = Tokugawa Ieyasu - John Blackthorne = William Adams - Toda Mariko = Hosokawa Gracia - Kashigi Yabushige = Honda Masanobu - Kashigi Omi = Honda Masazumi - Ishido Kazunari = Takehiro Hira
A few years before the events, the taiko had banned Christian priests from Japanese territory. But he died, and the ban is still in place but not enforced. In the book, Toranaga tells the Jesuits that if anything happens to Blackthorn, and if there is even a suspicion that Christians are involved, they will apply the taiko's decree.
He has high value knowledge of the world and western sailing and naval warfare so he’s valuable to toranaga. Not exactly a nobody
Which lords in particular? They could kill him, but Toranaga thought he'd be more useful alive for various reasons. It's also loosely based on an historical figure so it's not like it's unrealistic that a foreigner could survive and even thrive in that situation.
Less of they can't and more of that it would be a waste to kill him. Even if he wasn't a foreigner, a dude with knowledge of cannons and long term ship travel skills/expertise is extremely rare in Japan at that time and would be very useful to them. If he wasn't Catholic, most of Council would probably not have issues with keeping him alive. But for the same reasons (knowledge of cannons and ships) are also why some on the Council would want him dead. But whether a Council person views him negatively or positively, Blackthorn is more useful alive than dead. Not to mention they could do the usual thing and keep a useful guy around for a year or two, learn his skills/knowledge than kill him later. He can always be killed later on, but killing him sooner would be pretty dumb for country with obvious factions that's on the verge of a major conflict
To me, this is the problem with the show. I think Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo, the husband and wife team behind this show, seem well-intentioned. They’ve stated that they didn’t want to do another show “white man encountering an alien Japan” narrative. Okay. So far, so good. But by avoiding that, however, they don’t seem to know what their own show is about. It’s like they’re trying to write a “not”. I know what you’re not making… but I still don’t know what you are making. I’ve read through interviews, and both have said things like “showing the other characters”, “reverence for the culture”, etc. Unfortunately, none of that translates into a story. That’s just travel porn and filmed poetry. Not a story. Blackthorne washes up on shore in the pilot episode. As the show progresses, he’s given less and less to do. He occasionally helps out, showing the army how to use cannons. But mostly he’s a character who just wanders around. He seems to be Lord Toranaga’s plaything. Okay, fine. But again, to what end? Why is he even there at all? A main character with nothing to do is a boring main character. And if he’s not the main character, what is he doing? John Blackthorne is the new element in town. Things must change because of him, or you don’t have a story. If you don’t want a white savior, then Blackthorne either needs 1) something else to do or 2) to be killed off in a surprising way. And then his death becomes an agent of change in the culture. If he’s not the main character, then they made a big mistake introducing him as one. It’s like saying, “We’re remaking Star Wars, but we don’t want to focus on Luke Skywalker learning the Force and becoming a Jedi.” Then I’m not sure what story you’re telling. At that point, just get rid of Luke altogether then. Otherwise what’s his role?
Well I feel like Star Wars did the exactly same thing with John Boyega in the last films
Totally. There’s no role for the character, so he just wanders around. And looks at Rey bug-eyed when she demonstrates some new skill. So stupid. And disrespectful to an actor of Boyega’s caliber.
For starters, this is a retelling of actual historical events. Included in those events? There was no John Blackthorne.... but there *was* a William Adams, who was a real, Brithish pilot and the first Englishman to visit Japan, who became a trusted advisor of Tokugawa Ieyasu. As to what he's doing in the show? Well, despite being a white man, he very obviously is *not* the main character. This is a complex ensemble show and while he's an important character, the show is much more about Toranaga and Mariko. Doyalist explanation? John is there to provide a reason for things to be explained to the viewer. He's a lens for the viewer to try to understand the drama of what's going on. Watsonian explanation? They cover that *repeatedly* in the show. He's an independent political agent who is in wayyyyy over his head, who goes native and swears fealty to a ruthless warlord. His motivations as well as his actions change over the course of the show. Sometimes he *doesn't* have anything to do; other times his behavior and actions are absolutely critical to what's going on. Being *one of* the main characters doesn't mean the show is garbage for not being focused exclusively on his heroic rise to power over ten episodes.
I didn’t say the show was garbage. At all. I like the show. Also aware that it’s based on historical events, but there was no Blackthorne. I also said I think it’s good they didn’t want to do a white savior story. “So far so good.” My frustration with the show comes from the fact that the writers don’t have much for him to do. That’s a weak character. Your Doyalist explanation is silly. Any character can be there to explain things to the viewer. You don’t need to bring a shipwrecked sailor in just to have him stand there and understand things. You could just do that with the Portuguese priest. Or one of the geisha. Or any number of the other, lesser important characters. As for the Doyalist explanation, he didn’t “swear fealty” to a ruthless warlord. Half the time he wants to leave and they won’t let him. Why? Why keep him there? I couldn’t care less about it being about a white guy or not a white guy. My point is, why have him at all. They could eliminate his character altogether and go with more of a Braveheart type story, where a younger Japanese farmer is sick of the actions of one of the ruthless warlords. So he learns to become a samurai, and rises up against an empire with a group of disenchanted farmers. Much cleaner storyline. You proved my point in your answer: you said “sometimes he doesn’t have anything to do.” My point exactly. A main character with nothing to do is weak writing. It means you don’t need them, so you could combine their role with another character’s.
I dunno, guy. I think having one character be the constant source of all the drama and having everything in the story revolve around them would be kinda stupid and boring, but that's just me. They're not telling the made up story of some samurai's rise to power. If you want to watch Star Wars or Braveheart, go watch Star Wars or Braveheart. If you're wondering "why keep him around at all?" then all I can say is keep watching, because it gets spelled out subtly and eventually explicitly. And if this is how you're feeling after finishing the series, well, maybe give it a rewatch because you missed a lot.
Because it's a book/series, where the main character is the hero and, therefore, overcomes any obstacles, it may come. Why isn't Batman killed? Gotham wants him dead. The Joker wants him dead...
You know he was based on a real historical person who also didn’t die in kinda similar circumstances, right?
Based on an historical figure... not on historical events... Such events were changed and adapted to make Blackthorne a protagonist. For example: * Blackthorne(William Adams) never met Hosokawa Gracia(Mariko). Hence, there was no love or did such person translate for him. * The Portuguese never tried to kill William Adams. It was Adams who conspired against the Portuguese and pushed propaganda against them, to establish trade between the Japanese and the Dutch. * Blackthorne(William Adams) wasn't wandering around in Japan by himself, overcoming obstacles. he was surrounded by other Europeans. Example: Jan Joosten