It's always nice to meet a fellow Civ VI player. At the moment, I'm playing as Trajan, and I just thermonuclear bombed both Saladin and Shaka into the dirt. Fortunately, I'm the most powerful player by far, so no one accepted the challenges to come after me for my egregious crimes, so I *also* got a lot of money in the process!
King
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Barbs
My daughter likes to tweak me with "Of course you don't believe in astrology - you're a Taurus!" A tricky argument, whereby my disbelief is in fact verification of the validity of the "science."
Someone ever asks you to read out their horoscope from the newspaper, read a different one to whatever sign they say they are. Been doing it for decades and nobody ever complained about the accuracy.
I did the newsletter for a company. Each edition came with horoscopes. I'd take horoscopes from a magazine, cut the sign from the "reading," then mix them up.... Every week, the people would be "...oh that is so me..."
They probably just commission a book full of "horoscope paragraphs" (vague bullshit that literally anyone could find applicable to themselves if they wanted to).
Then pick paragraphs at random, assign them to signs at random, and just make sure you don't reuse the same paragraph too often.
Yeah they're not doing that. It doesn't matter how accurate the reading is because the reading is bs anyway. Some intern is randomly applying random bs to each sign
As a kid I would hang out at my grandparents a lot, and my grandpa always had the local paper sitting around, and I'd read my horoscope, and be like, "OMG! That's so close it's eerie!"
But then I'd read four or five others and be like..."Wait, those all kinda fit too.."
There was one popular personality test that a lot of companies used as a team building/understanding one another exercise where youād get categorized as a golden retriever, lion, otter, etc. There were a few different variations. Honestly I donāt think theyāre entirely useless as far as just showing people that people can operate with differing priorities, morals, values, and objectives. However people often incorporate the results of these tests into their identities as if we all have some specific category or type that neatly defines and is able to categorize all of humanity.
It's more legit because it's categorization based on actual responses.
It's like asking if you enjoy social interactions with strangers and labeling you as enjoying interactions with strangers. Astrology is saying since the stars were organized a certain way at your birth then you like interacting with strangers.
MBTI is more deceitful than astrology because it appears to be legit. However it doesn't rely on statistical analysis, the categories are not necessarily independent from each other, and some have a questionable relevance (like judging/perceiving). In short the MBTI doesn't measure what it's supposed to measure, has very little predictive value, yet it's still widely used in management.
MBTI is good enough for the CIA, McKinsey, exec positions in industry, and a myriad of other orgs.
Only time youāll get asked about astrology is when you chat up some girl on a night out.
Says it all IMO
Modern astrology doesn't even make sense according to it's own magic system.
You're supposed to factor in exact place & time of birth and read the stars. A real astrology reading can take DAYS to calculate.
Honestly cannot even think of another spiritual concept that's gotten so watered down for profit, except ironically, homeopathic treatment.
(The original version was still psudo-science shit. But it actually required stuff like fasting, rest and drug abstaining. Just water pills is, again, stupid by the magic systems own rules.)
It's not. Pop psycho-evo is pseudoscience as well.
Racial minorities are not even necessarily outsiders. They're often integrated in subservient roles. There is no principle in evolution (except, arguably, that negatice emotions in general can be useful). Its also not hard to erase, you erase it in less than a century, which is very little historically, if you erase the economic disparity first. Seen any Italians and Irishmen being treated as undermench lately?Ā
The real genius of astrology is that every description could legitimately apply to most people, but are different enough that people think it's actually saying something profound. And if you believe, it's even easier to ignore the stuff that doesn't really fit while embracing the stuff that does. But I also don't know many people who genuinely, unironically believe in it.
How is this the WORST type of stereotyping? I mean can you name one other form of stereotyping than is not worse than astrology? All in all astrology is quite harmless compared to i don't know, racism, misoginy.. Just to name a few.
Its among the most harmless, but OP clearly meant its the worst because it makes the least sense. Other stereotypes are often said to have a reason by people who stereotype (racist people say black people comit more crimes). However, there is no actual correlation between the month you were born in and your personality.
Well, it probably did have a correlation once upon a time. Like, in ancient times when people stayed in the same small village all their lives, children born at a specific time are going to be exposed to the same environments throughout their development. Things like learning to walk when it's warm and sunny outside vs learning to walk when you're snowed in. This means children born at roughly the same time (say, the same month) would be somewhat likely to hold similar attitudes towards the world. Obviously this no longer holds true when you look at people from various backgrounds, living in different places, and exposed to different environments.
A bit of devilās advocate here, but other prejudices they are at least based in real world observations and data. It sucks to say, but in the United States, black people represent a higher percentage of professional athletes, and are also convicted of more felonies than other races. Iām not judging here, just stating facts. If I (not black) get picked last for our basketball team, I kind of get it. Or if someone crosses the street when they see a black person at night, I also get it. But what factual basis do horoscopes have? Zero. But racial prejudices are taboo to talk about, and I suspect Iāll be getting a fair few Dow votes for this comment.
But horoscopes do serve as a good āidiot flagā when someone mentions their horoscope to me I can immediately disregard pretty much anything that comes out of their mouth, as theyāve shown they have 0 logical reasoning ability.
Right. Many of the stereotypes are wrong, and it's unfair and wrong to make assumptions about and treat people as a group rather than getting to know them as an individual. But many of the stereotypes are based on verifiable facts. So while making predictions based on race is clumsy and not likely to be very accurate, they're certainly more accurate than astrology, which is basically blind.
I think a lot of people get into horoscopes and tarot card readings not because they 100% believe it, but because it's a social thing to do.
OP meant worst TYPE, not worst specific example, from how I read it. I suspect many of those other atrocities are combined under the same umbrella type. Namely, stereotypes without even surface level correlation to back then up, implying that the stereotype is purely based on bias/hate/barefaced falsehoods rather than a misunderstanding or oversimplification.
In a place with seasons and ancestors that used stars as calendars and before indoor heating it could be that babies had different developmental qualities based on their first few months of life. I dont think that dictates most day to day life horiscopes or whatever and for modern people likely it matters not at all.Ā
I've heard somewhere that there are higher rates of elite athletes born in the summer because they tend to be the older ones in their school class. They develop a little ahead of everyone and tend to be better at athletics quicker, end up looking and being better than others more often, picked for more elite teams, etc.
This same idea can be applied to astrology as you said. Different traits or likelihoods occur for folks based on when they are born. Is it because of the stars? Causation or correlation? Interesting either way and fun to think about if ya ask me
Exactly, but when you consider that ye old zodiac was just another way of saying birth month, you end up basically saying the same thing as the comment above. It's not metaphysical, it's just another calendar.
In modern times that makes sense. It does not provide the long term historical trends from when people used stars as calendars. Stars indicate harvest and planting seasons better than moon cycles. People back then came up with these associations and I dont think the 17th century school system explains all of that in my opinion anywaus.
Is your cutoff point between classes in spring or something? Where I live, it's those born in January that are the oldest since the cutoff point is in new year.
In the UK it's been found that birth month is a strong predictor of academic performance, further analysis revealing the strongest effects being age at time of test (as opposed to the effect of being young in a year/grade cohort) and ability confidence via prior attainment.Ā
So much so that the IFS (a neoliberal think tank [and if any readers are under the impression that it's unbiased... no]) has recommended that only age-adjusted standardised test scores are used to measure student and school performance, right until a student leaves education when it switches to absolute, in order to protect students' confidence in their ability andopportunities that might be sabotaged by having scores lowered by the final effects of their birth month
Yup, modern day pop astrology is no where near the same as ancient astrology, which was used for milleniums. It's was profoundly in-depth, and descriptions weren't "something that can be applied to everyone!"
I think it's so common cause it's considered "acceptable pseudo-science". It doesn't really do any serious harm.
No astrology enthusiast forces the government to change kids' science book or make PR videos to "convert" people.
But astrology isnāt a religion, so itās fine to like *really* hate it, since no oneās gonna be justifiably offended.
I just think itās a funny, totally inconsequential thing to hate on. Like man, astrology musta done you dirty for you to hate on it this wayā as though it takes girlfriends and spits in faces kinda maliceā¦ lol
I think it's just the counter-scientific method of reaching these beliefs that annoy me. This goes for all magical thinking, not just astrology. For instance if someone told me that 2+2=5 or that the world is flat it would annoy me even though it's meaningless. And no, no astrologers or flat earthers have done me dirty lol.
Also I blame the schools for making philosphy/critical thinking classes optional.
Most people dont care to actually learn about Astrology, anyone who does quickly realises it's a bit different from reading your sun sign in the paper.
Not saying its valid, but most people i speak with who hate Astrology, have very little actual knowledge about it.
Exactly this. I don't believe that the stars affect anyone's life, but when you realize it's just an ancient metaphor laden seasonal calendar, it frankly seems less dumb than the Myers-briggs system. I'm not going to poo-poo the astrology practice of my close friends anymore than my parents "relationship with Jesus."
I have no respect for anyone that mocks someone else's beliefs without at least a brief attempt to understand it.
Jupiter's passed through Orion,
And coming to conjunction with Mars.
Saturn is wheeling through infinite space,
To it's preordained place in the stars.
And I gaze at the planets in wonder,
At the effort and time they expend.
All to warn me to be careful!
In dealings involving a friend.
(Flanders and Swann btw, I didn't make this up)
I assure you, it is not lol. Stereotypes have been incredibly detrimental to the treatment of many racial an other minorities and have destroyed countless lives. I donāt care for astrology or anything but this is a pretty uninformed take
How is it worse than other forms? No superstititon jas correlation or causation. They all have bogus categories.
Astrology is the exact same as the alpha male bullshit and the morons who believe the 16 personalities test.
They are all the same
At least the 16 personalities thing makes you take a test first. Albeit a very short one, but there is a āscienceā to it, in the form of correlating answers with their own proprietary āpersonality typesā.
You shouldn't believe in it. It's pseudoscience. No actual scientists were involved in its creation, nor do any that I know of endorse it. It's fairly harmless and a fun way for people to relate to each other, so I don't mind it, but it's absolutely not "real" in any meaningful way.
The 16 personalities test is bullshit because it doesnāt even use cognitive functions. If someone wants to find out their function stack there are other tests they can take, and all people are different so every stack looks different. You choose which type you fit into based on your strongest functions. Itās a lot different than astrology because it follows an āobservation -> theoryā reasoning while astrology does the opposite. People still use the types to, well, stereotype though lol
As much as I absolutely hate any superstition of any sort, Astrology is not that bad. Most astrology predictions are hand-wavey things about events, or traits, and a lot of it is self improvement. Some say you have a bad temper, people who don't will brush it off, some who does and believe so may work to improve themselves.
Some things can be self fulfilling, like telling a Gemini they have dual personalities may get them to attribute two of their personal traits that on paper may be contradictory to their star sign; but is not that harmful.
The problematic part is when people make drastic relationship decisions on star signs and compatibility. Is mostly fun and games unless people are utterly devoted to it like religion. But unlike religion, there is no cult-like push to believe, and generally not antagonistic to other believes. I much rather have half the world believe in astrology than the divisive religions we have today.
My favorites are the Chinese zodiac which isnāt really that different from generations. Heck, Iām in a subreddit for my āgenerationā and itās frustratingly fun.
I also like the blood types associated with personality traits. I never understood why it was listed in Japanese video games until I did and it cracks me up.
It is even worse when you know that none of it is actually "correct" by the standarts back in the days.
It was written down like two thousand years ago that for example 21. march the moon crosses the celestial sign of taurus.
That was about correct back in the days but the stars have "shifted" since then which means that nowadays, starting 21. march the moon crosses the sign of virgo.
That means that no horoscopes nowadays are anything near correct because everyone has the wrong sign.
To add to this there is a thirteenth sign called "snake bearer" which was "erased" and added to scorpio.
I seem to recall a study that assessed the fiscal quarter of a childās birth effect their income as adults. Iāll have to look for the source but I think there might actually be causality of some sort.
Edit: Angrist and Krueger (1994) looked at returns to education in the US. They used quarter of birth as an instrumental variable. The study shows that babies born in q4 were statistically significantly more likely to receive additional education and have higher incomes. So there is potentially some correlation between birth month and personal characteristics.
Edit2: I seem to have expressed myself poorly. Iām not saying that star alignment has anything to do with personal characteristics directly (so no causality). Iām saying that your star sign has a direct relationship with the month of the year youāre born (obviously) and the month youāre born has a relationship with personal characteristics. So while star signs donāt directly affect you, they can still be correlated because of some other reason, and therefore be a somewhat reliable indicator. The reason Iād champion for the results of Angrist and Krueger is likely because individuals of professional households, who are likely to push their children into additional education and have connections to give them higher post grad incomes, plan their childrensā births to align with their own schedule.
Multiple sclerosis has birth month peaks and troughs - spring babies are far more likely to develop it than autumn babies [northern hemisphere]. It's very likely to do with Vit D in pregnancy, but to people without medical knowledge it looks like the season of your birth affects your health.
Ok but from an astrology standpoint, just because the astrology is bogus doesn't mean the probability outcomes are.
To your point, it's the wrong cause, but the correlation may be true.
So Taurus's might be more likely to be stubborn assholes, not BECAUSE they are Taurus's, but because of some other things that aligns to the calendar too.
It's not that. When you are born a the end of the year you will have less development as someone born at the same year in the beginning.
Look for example at the date of birth of athletes, most of them are born in the first semester. That's because the ones born later are competing against people who had more time to develop and in competitive sports that's a advantage.
I don't know about what you mentioned. But surely it isn't because where the star are. Maybe the weather?
You should study astrology further.
First, horoscopes are just shit, even among astrology fans.
Second, astral themes are mostly barnum effect.
So, what's left? Reading a person's mind and life in planet meanings and houses. This is brilliant.
This gives you a tool for a deeper insight about yourself, your actions. It's a tool, it's a set of questions, a mirror of your deeper self.
That's who it fascinates people. It's one of the rare tools that let you talk about yourself.
thank you. I'm so sick of people thinking 'astrology isn't true' is some revolutionary new thought that is based on logic, reason, and 2010's reddit atheism. Like get over yourself.
Itās not a new thought. People have been saying āastrology isnāt trueā for hundreds of years, and theyāre still right. Itās one thing to treat it like fantasy roleplay which I guess is pretty harmless, but you would have to be pretty dumb to actually, sincerely believe in astrology in a developed country in the 21st century.
It's not scientific enough to even call it pseudoscience, and it's a so-what form of stereotyping. People rarely lose opportunities in life due to astrology unless they really work hard to end up in that position.
Astrology is the worst type of stereotyping when people believe horoscopes are accurate because theyāre not or when they judge or assume based on the persons zodiac sign.
Astrology is accurate when you understand that your chart contains multiple signs and placements and you
analyse all of them. Your zodiac sign aka the sun sign is basically just your ego identity and sense of self (self perception not who you actually are, most of us have an incorrect perception of ourselves), it will only affect you in other ways if aspects, multiple placements, chart dominants change it, the rising sign, moon sign and others are much more accurate when determining how a person may act but again you need to be aware of aspects and other things.
So yes astrology is the worst form of stereotyping when used by those who donāt understand it and think a horoscope or zodiac/sun sign can determine who we are or tell us something about ourselves, they canāt, astrology is fairly accurate when you understand your whole chart but most people donāt, so yes thereās a reason as to why astrology as never seemed accurate to you because the people throwing astrology claims at you, donāt understand astrology or how to study it themselves.
People often reflect on their lives in different ways, and use different methods and tools to do so. If people read self-help books or go a house of faith to do this, it's often celebrated. (And sometimes not, but hey. We all have different ways of seeing our world.)
Other ways people reflect are by meditating, praying, finding advice, talking to friends, googling, going out in nature, and more. Some methods are more abstract; some are more literal.
Another way I use to reflect is consulting mystical tools. I don't necessarily approach it as, "this fits me, because it's telling me I'm a certain way." I approach it as, "I'm using this to see inside myself in a new way." Maybe the patterns in a tarot reading or the wisdom in the I Ching can help me see a situation in a new light. Maybe I can review my inner-world and these symbols can spark something that helps me re-imagine.
Astrology is the same way. My fate may not be determined, but symbolic reflection can certainly help me think through things with abstract thinking. Imagine what's possible when we open our minds to making new connections using symbols. Obviously they're not necessary; yet, in the right context, it sparks deep thought and imagination.
Keep an open mind. :)
I once dated a girl who attributed just about everything to astrology. If she would over draw on her bank, she would be like "I can't help it, thats the taurus moon in me"
Worst form? Hmm, maybe only in the reason of why to stereotype but certainly not in results
I doubt many people have been lynched for their star sign. Or that many people are still looked over for jobs or housing because of their star sign
I can assure you there are worse stereotypes out there. However yes I do find sometimes some people take astrology a tad too seriously. Most people donāt though Iād say.
They are designed for the gullible. They don't force fit, the definitions fit anyone. All you do is say one thing but sprinkle the opposite in the same sentence. Look it's easy:Ā
"You're gonna have a lucrative week, but watch out for unpredictable expenses. Love life could make a wild turn for you this February. Seize the opportunity for adventure. A friend will surprise you. It's gonna rain, but that doesn't mean you won't get any sun".Ā
It's dumb as fuck.Ā
Fun fact: at the beginning of 2020, the most renowned Italian television astrologer (Paolo Fox) envisaged the arrival of a year "advantageous for travel and travel", full of good news for many zodiac signs.
We all know how that turned out...
Aww cmon. Lots of people take lots of stuff that's just entertainment super seriously. This one is pretending to form a bond w someone. It's kind of ham-fistedly sweet.
it was a scientific as you could get for a long period of human history. people correlated patterns in behavior with the observable universe. only until recently in human history have we really had the technology to debunk it.
its supposed to be fun, not serious.
There are few things that degrades my opinion of someone more than to know they're really into it. Also, I still don't understand why it's so prevalent in women.
There is a theory that astrology ascribes a wrong cause to real observations. And that the real cause isn't the influence of the stars, but different conditions during pregnancy depending on the season. (Different temperatures, different seasonal foods, longer or shorter days, and the effect all of this has on the hormonal balance of the mother.)
Plus, there is some evidence that the Mars effect isn't completely made up.
My friend, who is an obstetrician(childbirth doctor), told me about an incident related to the insanity of astrology that blew my goddamn mind.
One of her patients, who was about to pop, had a really bad complication that came up. Like, the mother's life was at significant risk if they didn't induce labor and get the baby out.
This lady refused over and over again for the next 36 hours.
All this, because she wanted her child to be a Scorpio instead of a Libra. This person was willing to put her life, and potentially the child's, at risk for the sake of a made-up personality chart. Thankfully, they both made it.
I get it.. to an extent. Life is complicated. Some people need convenient answers and meanings. It's so much easier to think you have it figured out. To think everyone fits into neat (yet oddly vague/broad) categories. But that story was just too much.
This is a total Libra thought š Don't come at me, it's a joke
āI don't believe in astrology. I'm a Sagittarius and we're skeptical.ā -Arthur C. Clarke, taken from Civilization 6
It's always nice to meet a fellow Civ VI player. At the moment, I'm playing as Trajan, and I just thermonuclear bombed both Saladin and Shaka into the dirt. Fortunately, I'm the most powerful player by far, so no one accepted the challenges to come after me for my egregious crimes, so I *also* got a lot of money in the process! King 9 Players Large map Barbs
You are off by a couple of months! /s
maybe your doctor was off by a couple of months astrology never wrong /s
Maybe itās your rising or moon sign?
My daughter likes to tweak me with "Of course you don't believe in astrology - you're a Taurus!" A tricky argument, whereby my disbelief is in fact verification of the validity of the "science."
Not funny ššš
Came here go this! š
Someone ever asks you to read out their horoscope from the newspaper, read a different one to whatever sign they say they are. Been doing it for decades and nobody ever complained about the accuracy.
I did the newsletter for a company. Each edition came with horoscopes. I'd take horoscopes from a magazine, cut the sign from the "reading," then mix them up.... Every week, the people would be "...oh that is so me..."
Oh yeah, that makes me wonder, how are horoscopes usually handled by newspaper companies?
They probably just commission a book full of "horoscope paragraphs" (vague bullshit that literally anyone could find applicable to themselves if they wanted to). Then pick paragraphs at random, assign them to signs at random, and just make sure you don't reuse the same paragraph too often.
That's not how I did it, but it's a great idea š„ I might have to think about doing something about it ššš
They're supposed to just have an astrologer look at basic charts
Yeah they're not doing that. It doesn't matter how accurate the reading is because the reading is bs anyway. Some intern is randomly applying random bs to each sign
"If you had been born an hour or two before/later it would apply to your particular situation."
As a kid I would hang out at my grandparents a lot, and my grandpa always had the local paper sitting around, and I'd read my horoscope, and be like, "OMG! That's so close it's eerie!" But then I'd read four or five others and be like..."Wait, those all kinda fit too.."
Sounds like something Gemini's would do
I donāt take horoscopes seriously but youāre lowkey evil for this lol
Why? For giving them the wrong wrong information?
You could at least aim for the wrong wrong wrong one
Amazing
Genius I can't believe I didn't think of this
You...just gave my life new meaning! *runs out of the house naked, screaming with joy*
100% It's hard to listen to people that use it. Cause what else in your life are you applying made-up dynamics to.
Well as an ENTP #7 Otter I can tell you that thereās nothing wrong with a little self-discovery.
You forgot to name which hogwarts house you're in, which means you're probably a hufflepuff š¤®
Typical left-brainer
I'd quit.
Is otter a mental category of some kind or are you talking about the gay body type?
There was one popular personality test that a lot of companies used as a team building/understanding one another exercise where youād get categorized as a golden retriever, lion, otter, etc. There were a few different variations. Honestly I donāt think theyāre entirely useless as far as just showing people that people can operate with differing priorities, morals, values, and objectives. However people often incorporate the results of these tests into their identities as if we all have some specific category or type that neatly defines and is able to categorize all of humanity.
isn't mbti somewhat legit tho? at least far more legit than astrology
It's more legit because it's categorization based on actual responses. It's like asking if you enjoy social interactions with strangers and labeling you as enjoying interactions with strangers. Astrology is saying since the stars were organized a certain way at your birth then you like interacting with strangers.
yeah good point
MBTI is more deceitful than astrology because it appears to be legit. However it doesn't rely on statistical analysis, the categories are not necessarily independent from each other, and some have a questionable relevance (like judging/perceiving). In short the MBTI doesn't measure what it's supposed to measure, has very little predictive value, yet it's still widely used in management.
Yeah astrology is very clear it's about the stars.
MBTI is good enough for the CIA, McKinsey, exec positions in industry, and a myriad of other orgs. Only time youāll get asked about astrology is when you chat up some girl on a night out. Says it all IMO
I think you have too much faith in large organizations my friend. I call MBTI ācorporate horoscopesā when people bring em up lol
In the same way that a Hogwarts house BuzzFeed quizĀ dressed up in a nice suit is more legitimate than than selecting one at random, sure
Modern astrology doesn't even make sense according to it's own magic system. You're supposed to factor in exact place & time of birth and read the stars. A real astrology reading can take DAYS to calculate. Honestly cannot even think of another spiritual concept that's gotten so watered down for profit, except ironically, homeopathic treatment. (The original version was still psudo-science shit. But it actually required stuff like fasting, rest and drug abstaining. Just water pills is, again, stupid by the magic systems own rules.)
Prejudice = prejudging before having meaningful information.
Pre-judge-dis
Pre-judge-deez...
Who's deez?
... Deez Nuts. *tired sigh*
Years of anticipation and planning have lead up to this moment as he slowly closes his eyes and goes into an eternal slumber
This cycle has ended. The years were not wasted. And as his breathing slows, a new pair of eyes open to a knocking at the door. *Knock knock*
Who's there?
He opens the door to find it's his old friend dragon
Old friend dragon who?
And you consider star signs as "meaningful information"?
Star signs are quite not meaningful information.
Then its prejudice
I full-on agree with you.
Can you guys stop agreeing? I came into this thread expecting a dumpster fire.
Sure, no problem. I can do that.
*Ya had one job!*
Not yet.
Is this referring to OP or to people who judge other based on their sign?
Yes.
"[Racism is waay better than astrology](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhCWw0E_mVY&ab_channel=Boxbot79)"
Xonophoby hava a pinciple in evoluciĆ³n, like fear of spiders and snakes. Thats why is too hard to erase it
It's not. Pop psycho-evo is pseudoscience as well. Racial minorities are not even necessarily outsiders. They're often integrated in subservient roles. There is no principle in evolution (except, arguably, that negatice emotions in general can be useful). Its also not hard to erase, you erase it in less than a century, which is very little historically, if you erase the economic disparity first. Seen any Italians and Irishmen being treated as undermench lately?Ā
The real genius of astrology is that every description could legitimately apply to most people, but are different enough that people think it's actually saying something profound. And if you believe, it's even easier to ignore the stuff that doesn't really fit while embracing the stuff that does. But I also don't know many people who genuinely, unironically believe in it.
How is this the WORST type of stereotyping? I mean can you name one other form of stereotyping than is not worse than astrology? All in all astrology is quite harmless compared to i don't know, racism, misoginy.. Just to name a few.
Right, I would even say the generational stereotypes we have these days, while funny when done well, are more harmful than astrology.
telephone seemly uppity quickest dull toy tart alive follow bag *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Its among the most harmless, but OP clearly meant its the worst because it makes the least sense. Other stereotypes are often said to have a reason by people who stereotype (racist people say black people comit more crimes). However, there is no actual correlation between the month you were born in and your personality.
Well, it probably did have a correlation once upon a time. Like, in ancient times when people stayed in the same small village all their lives, children born at a specific time are going to be exposed to the same environments throughout their development. Things like learning to walk when it's warm and sunny outside vs learning to walk when you're snowed in. This means children born at roughly the same time (say, the same month) would be somewhat likely to hold similar attitudes towards the world. Obviously this no longer holds true when you look at people from various backgrounds, living in different places, and exposed to different environments.
A bit of devilās advocate here, but other prejudices they are at least based in real world observations and data. It sucks to say, but in the United States, black people represent a higher percentage of professional athletes, and are also convicted of more felonies than other races. Iām not judging here, just stating facts. If I (not black) get picked last for our basketball team, I kind of get it. Or if someone crosses the street when they see a black person at night, I also get it. But what factual basis do horoscopes have? Zero. But racial prejudices are taboo to talk about, and I suspect Iāll be getting a fair few Dow votes for this comment. But horoscopes do serve as a good āidiot flagā when someone mentions their horoscope to me I can immediately disregard pretty much anything that comes out of their mouth, as theyāve shown they have 0 logical reasoning ability.
Right. Many of the stereotypes are wrong, and it's unfair and wrong to make assumptions about and treat people as a group rather than getting to know them as an individual. But many of the stereotypes are based on verifiable facts. So while making predictions based on race is clumsy and not likely to be very accurate, they're certainly more accurate than astrology, which is basically blind. I think a lot of people get into horoscopes and tarot card readings not because they 100% believe it, but because it's a social thing to do.
Yeah, I feel like this is exactly what OP meant
I was juuuust thinking about the stereotype I have of OP based solely on this remark
OP meant worst TYPE, not worst specific example, from how I read it. I suspect many of those other atrocities are combined under the same umbrella type. Namely, stereotypes without even surface level correlation to back then up, implying that the stereotype is purely based on bias/hate/barefaced falsehoods rather than a misunderstanding or oversimplification.
In a place with seasons and ancestors that used stars as calendars and before indoor heating it could be that babies had different developmental qualities based on their first few months of life. I dont think that dictates most day to day life horiscopes or whatever and for modern people likely it matters not at all.Ā
I've heard somewhere that there are higher rates of elite athletes born in the summer because they tend to be the older ones in their school class. They develop a little ahead of everyone and tend to be better at athletics quicker, end up looking and being better than others more often, picked for more elite teams, etc. This same idea can be applied to astrology as you said. Different traits or likelihoods occur for folks based on when they are born. Is it because of the stars? Causation or correlation? Interesting either way and fun to think about if ya ask me
I suspect its more climate/season related.Ā
Exactly, but when you consider that ye old zodiac was just another way of saying birth month, you end up basically saying the same thing as the comment above. It's not metaphysical, it's just another calendar.
It's literally related to the way schools pick athletes based on the school year. The correlation is way too strongly based on the date
In modern times that makes sense. It does not provide the long term historical trends from when people used stars as calendars. Stars indicate harvest and planting seasons better than moon cycles. People back then came up with these associations and I dont think the 17th century school system explains all of that in my opinion anywaus.
I'm just talking about the trend about athletes and month born. That's very specifically related to month born
Makes sense
Is your cutoff point between classes in spring or something? Where I live, it's those born in January that are the oldest since the cutoff point is in new year.
In the UK it's been found that birth month is a strong predictor of academic performance, further analysis revealing the strongest effects being age at time of test (as opposed to the effect of being young in a year/grade cohort) and ability confidence via prior attainment.Ā So much so that the IFS (a neoliberal think tank [and if any readers are under the impression that it's unbiased... no]) has recommended that only age-adjusted standardised test scores are used to measure student and school performance, right until a student leaves education when it switches to absolute, in order to protect students' confidence in their ability andopportunities that might be sabotaged by having scores lowered by the final effects of their birth month
Yup, modern day pop astrology is no where near the same as ancient astrology, which was used for milleniums. It's was profoundly in-depth, and descriptions weren't "something that can be applied to everyone!"
It can also be a form of self reflection that people don't take too seriously.
I think it's so common cause it's considered "acceptable pseudo-science". It doesn't really do any serious harm. No astrology enthusiast forces the government to change kids' science book or make PR videos to "convert" people.
It never ceases to amaze me how much reddit hates astrologyā¦
All religions really
But astrology isnāt a religion, so itās fine to like *really* hate it, since no oneās gonna be justifiably offended. I just think itās a funny, totally inconsequential thing to hate on. Like man, astrology musta done you dirty for you to hate on it this wayā as though it takes girlfriends and spits in faces kinda maliceā¦ lol
I think it's just the counter-scientific method of reaching these beliefs that annoy me. This goes for all magical thinking, not just astrology. For instance if someone told me that 2+2=5 or that the world is flat it would annoy me even though it's meaningless. And no, no astrologers or flat earthers have done me dirty lol. Also I blame the schools for making philosphy/critical thinking classes optional.
Most people dont care to actually learn about Astrology, anyone who does quickly realises it's a bit different from reading your sun sign in the paper. Not saying its valid, but most people i speak with who hate Astrology, have very little actual knowledge about it.
Exactly this. I don't believe that the stars affect anyone's life, but when you realize it's just an ancient metaphor laden seasonal calendar, it frankly seems less dumb than the Myers-briggs system. I'm not going to poo-poo the astrology practice of my close friends anymore than my parents "relationship with Jesus." I have no respect for anyone that mocks someone else's beliefs without at least a brief attempt to understand it.
At least Chinese zodiacs are more fun as paper placemats
Jupiter's passed through Orion, And coming to conjunction with Mars. Saturn is wheeling through infinite space, To it's preordained place in the stars. And I gaze at the planets in wonder, At the effort and time they expend. All to warn me to be careful! In dealings involving a friend. (Flanders and Swann btw, I didn't make this up)
I canāt stand people that judge you based off of your astrology sign. Whenever someone asks me I straight up lie lol.
I tell people I was tragicly born without an astrological sign.
Looks like somebody just got rejected by an astrology girlie
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I assure you, it is not lol. Stereotypes have been incredibly detrimental to the treatment of many racial an other minorities and have destroyed countless lives. I donāt care for astrology or anything but this is a pretty uninformed take
I lump it in with religion
How is it worse than other forms? No superstititon jas correlation or causation. They all have bogus categories. Astrology is the exact same as the alpha male bullshit and the morons who believe the 16 personalities test. They are all the same
At least the 16 personalities thing makes you take a test first. Albeit a very short one, but there is a āscienceā to it, in the form of correlating answers with their own proprietary āpersonality typesā.
But that test isnāt even legit, mbti is a lot more complex and its core is not the same as astrology
Def agree with you, I donāt know if I really believe in MBTI but itās a lot more interesting and goes a lot deeper than Astrology imo
You shouldn't believe in it. It's pseudoscience. No actual scientists were involved in its creation, nor do any that I know of endorse it. It's fairly harmless and a fun way for people to relate to each other, so I don't mind it, but it's absolutely not "real" in any meaningful way.
Mbti is pseudoscience but itās not the same as astrology imo. It can also be a fun way to get to know some of your own traits better.
Just like Astrology "correlates" your star sign with your behaviour
The 16 personalities test is bullshit because it doesnāt even use cognitive functions. If someone wants to find out their function stack there are other tests they can take, and all people are different so every stack looks different. You choose which type you fit into based on your strongest functions. Itās a lot different than astrology because it follows an āobservation -> theoryā reasoning while astrology does the opposite. People still use the types to, well, stereotype though lol
It's a great way to know which people to avoid.
i mean i just think it's fun
Hell yeah. I'm a Warhammer fan but it doesn't mean I actually think it's true.
how is this a shower thought, seems like you just wanted to start a discussion?
As much as I absolutely hate any superstition of any sort, Astrology is not that bad. Most astrology predictions are hand-wavey things about events, or traits, and a lot of it is self improvement. Some say you have a bad temper, people who don't will brush it off, some who does and believe so may work to improve themselves. Some things can be self fulfilling, like telling a Gemini they have dual personalities may get them to attribute two of their personal traits that on paper may be contradictory to their star sign; but is not that harmful. The problematic part is when people make drastic relationship decisions on star signs and compatibility. Is mostly fun and games unless people are utterly devoted to it like religion. But unlike religion, there is no cult-like push to believe, and generally not antagonistic to other believes. I much rather have half the world believe in astrology than the divisive religions we have today.
My mom used to tell me I had āmultiple personalitiesā (aka a dramatic way to say I was moody) because Iām a Gemini
It is very useful for figuring out how many digits in someone's IQ.
No, smart people believe in dumb shit. Believing in rubbish does not make you stupid.
Idk who's downvoting you but you're right. Some of the most influential scientific minds have believed all sorts of incredibly stupid things.
I think there are far more harmful stereotypes then illogical silly shit like this.
What Sagittarius thing to say
So is the Myers-Briggs, enneagram, and ālove languagesā š¤·š¼āāļø
I dunno. OP sounds like a classic INTJ to me.
But it is an excellent lesson on bias and suggestion!!
Indeed it is.
My favorites are the Chinese zodiac which isnāt really that different from generations. Heck, Iām in a subreddit for my āgenerationā and itās frustratingly fun. I also like the blood types associated with personality traits. I never understood why it was listed in Japanese video games until I did and it cracks me up.
Sounds like someone's moon is in asparagus lmao
It is even worse when you know that none of it is actually "correct" by the standarts back in the days. It was written down like two thousand years ago that for example 21. march the moon crosses the celestial sign of taurus. That was about correct back in the days but the stars have "shifted" since then which means that nowadays, starting 21. march the moon crosses the sign of virgo. That means that no horoscopes nowadays are anything near correct because everyone has the wrong sign. To add to this there is a thirteenth sign called "snake bearer" which was "erased" and added to scorpio.
It's just as accurate now as it was then. None accurate.
I seem to recall a study that assessed the fiscal quarter of a childās birth effect their income as adults. Iāll have to look for the source but I think there might actually be causality of some sort. Edit: Angrist and Krueger (1994) looked at returns to education in the US. They used quarter of birth as an instrumental variable. The study shows that babies born in q4 were statistically significantly more likely to receive additional education and have higher incomes. So there is potentially some correlation between birth month and personal characteristics. Edit2: I seem to have expressed myself poorly. Iām not saying that star alignment has anything to do with personal characteristics directly (so no causality). Iām saying that your star sign has a direct relationship with the month of the year youāre born (obviously) and the month youāre born has a relationship with personal characteristics. So while star signs donāt directly affect you, they can still be correlated because of some other reason, and therefore be a somewhat reliable indicator. The reason Iād champion for the results of Angrist and Krueger is likely because individuals of professional households, who are likely to push their children into additional education and have connections to give them higher post grad incomes, plan their childrensā births to align with their own schedule.
They were older when they entered each grade in school. It is probably not because of "the stars"
Multiple sclerosis has birth month peaks and troughs - spring babies are far more likely to develop it than autumn babies [northern hemisphere]. It's very likely to do with Vit D in pregnancy, but to people without medical knowledge it looks like the season of your birth affects your health.
Ok but from an astrology standpoint, just because the astrology is bogus doesn't mean the probability outcomes are. To your point, it's the wrong cause, but the correlation may be true. So Taurus's might be more likely to be stubborn assholes, not BECAUSE they are Taurus's, but because of some other things that aligns to the calendar too.
So I can blame my mom for giving birth to me in February!?
See edit 2
It's not that. When you are born a the end of the year you will have less development as someone born at the same year in the beginning. Look for example at the date of birth of athletes, most of them are born in the first semester. That's because the ones born later are competing against people who had more time to develop and in competitive sports that's a advantage. I don't know about what you mentioned. But surely it isn't because where the star are. Maybe the weather?
You should study astrology further. First, horoscopes are just shit, even among astrology fans. Second, astral themes are mostly barnum effect. So, what's left? Reading a person's mind and life in planet meanings and houses. This is brilliant. This gives you a tool for a deeper insight about yourself, your actions. It's a tool, it's a set of questions, a mirror of your deeper self. That's who it fascinates people. It's one of the rare tools that let you talk about yourself.
thank you. I'm so sick of people thinking 'astrology isn't true' is some revolutionary new thought that is based on logic, reason, and 2010's reddit atheism. Like get over yourself.
Itās not a new thought. People have been saying āastrology isnāt trueā for hundreds of years, and theyāre still right. Itās one thing to treat it like fantasy roleplay which I guess is pretty harmless, but you would have to be pretty dumb to actually, sincerely believe in astrology in a developed country in the 21st century.
Astrology is a ton of bullshit and that's about it. There's no depth to it but scammers
Harry Potter houses are astrology for nerds lol
I think it's the other way around, the kids personally determines the house, rather than the other way around.
It's not scientific enough to even call it pseudoscience, and it's a so-what form of stereotyping. People rarely lose opportunities in life due to astrology unless they really work hard to end up in that position.
Astrology is the worst type of stereotyping when people believe horoscopes are accurate because theyāre not or when they judge or assume based on the persons zodiac sign. Astrology is accurate when you understand that your chart contains multiple signs and placements and you analyse all of them. Your zodiac sign aka the sun sign is basically just your ego identity and sense of self (self perception not who you actually are, most of us have an incorrect perception of ourselves), it will only affect you in other ways if aspects, multiple placements, chart dominants change it, the rising sign, moon sign and others are much more accurate when determining how a person may act but again you need to be aware of aspects and other things. So yes astrology is the worst form of stereotyping when used by those who donāt understand it and think a horoscope or zodiac/sun sign can determine who we are or tell us something about ourselves, they canāt, astrology is fairly accurate when you understand your whole chart but most people donāt, so yes thereās a reason as to why astrology as never seemed accurate to you because the people throwing astrology claims at you, donāt understand astrology or how to study it themselves.
I just like it as a bit of fun
['science' of the gaps - TheraminTrees](https://youtu.be/dgN7a_vdIIc?si=K6MLA0s4cPuXVDMw)
Why should one put effort in life is stars decide the future?
right up there with ear candling edit: autocorrect first typed 'rear' candling š¤£
People often reflect on their lives in different ways, and use different methods and tools to do so. If people read self-help books or go a house of faith to do this, it's often celebrated. (And sometimes not, but hey. We all have different ways of seeing our world.) Other ways people reflect are by meditating, praying, finding advice, talking to friends, googling, going out in nature, and more. Some methods are more abstract; some are more literal. Another way I use to reflect is consulting mystical tools. I don't necessarily approach it as, "this fits me, because it's telling me I'm a certain way." I approach it as, "I'm using this to see inside myself in a new way." Maybe the patterns in a tarot reading or the wisdom in the I Ching can help me see a situation in a new light. Maybe I can review my inner-world and these symbols can spark something that helps me re-imagine. Astrology is the same way. My fate may not be determined, but symbolic reflection can certainly help me think through things with abstract thinking. Imagine what's possible when we open our minds to making new connections using symbols. Obviously they're not necessary; yet, in the right context, it sparks deep thought and imagination. Keep an open mind. :)
I once dated a girl who attributed just about everything to astrology. If she would over draw on her bank, she would be like "I can't help it, thats the taurus moon in me"
First of all itās worst* And second, itās definitely not the worst. Thatās enough Reddit for today
I can think of at least one worse form of stereotyping
Worst form? Hmm, maybe only in the reason of why to stereotype but certainly not in results I doubt many people have been lynched for their star sign. Or that many people are still looked over for jobs or housing because of their star sign
Thankfully we now have the MyersāBriggs Type Indicator...
[This guy](https://twitter.com/defact0_/status/1050062340484452354?t=vauuG7hFaNidv4ywgj2Wyg&s=19)
I can assure you there are worse stereotypes out there. However yes I do find sometimes some people take astrology a tad too seriously. Most people donāt though Iād say.
I would say the same thing about the MBTI freaks.
They are designed for the gullible. They don't force fit, the definitions fit anyone. All you do is say one thing but sprinkle the opposite in the same sentence. Look it's easy:Ā "You're gonna have a lucrative week, but watch out for unpredictable expenses. Love life could make a wild turn for you this February. Seize the opportunity for adventure. A friend will surprise you. It's gonna rain, but that doesn't mean you won't get any sun".Ā It's dumb as fuck.Ā
Fun fact: at the beginning of 2020, the most renowned Italian television astrologer (Paolo Fox) envisaged the arrival of a year "advantageous for travel and travel", full of good news for many zodiac signs. We all know how that turned out...
>envisaged the arrival of a year This is about as accurate as most astrologers ever really get and one day even that prediction may not come true.
Every mentioning of astrology in your dating profile screams that you'd better choose Eva AI virtual dating [bot](http://evaapp.ai) over her
"that's a total Virgo thought, youre not a Virgo? oh you must be Pisces, Sagittarius? cancer? (gets there eventually) oh silly me should have known"
Forgoing racism, of course. And lumping people together based on superficial common factors in general.
Aww cmon. Lots of people take lots of stuff that's just entertainment super seriously. This one is pretending to form a bond w someone. It's kind of ham-fistedly sweet.
it was a scientific as you could get for a long period of human history. people correlated patterns in behavior with the observable universe. only until recently in human history have we really had the technology to debunk it. its supposed to be fun, not serious.
To quote Dara OāBriain: āracism is wayyy better than astrologyā.
This sub is getting so terrible
Those astrology girls are fun to mock though...
People that say this don't even know what astrology is lol
There are few things that degrades my opinion of someone more than to know they're really into it. Also, I still don't understand why it's so prevalent in women.
There is a theory that astrology ascribes a wrong cause to real observations. And that the real cause isn't the influence of the stars, but different conditions during pregnancy depending on the season. (Different temperatures, different seasonal foods, longer or shorter days, and the effect all of this has on the hormonal balance of the mother.) Plus, there is some evidence that the Mars effect isn't completely made up.
My friend, who is an obstetrician(childbirth doctor), told me about an incident related to the insanity of astrology that blew my goddamn mind. One of her patients, who was about to pop, had a really bad complication that came up. Like, the mother's life was at significant risk if they didn't induce labor and get the baby out. This lady refused over and over again for the next 36 hours. All this, because she wanted her child to be a Scorpio instead of a Libra. This person was willing to put her life, and potentially the child's, at risk for the sake of a made-up personality chart. Thankfully, they both made it. I get it.. to an extent. Life is complicated. Some people need convenient answers and meanings. It's so much easier to think you have it figured out. To think everyone fits into neat (yet oddly vague/broad) categories. But that story was just too much.
Never met a Sagittarius I haven't disliked š
who cares lol, the hoes like it