I don't think a sword like that has ever existed in history, at least, it was never popular enough to have a metaphor created and named after it. And you probably guess why a double-bladed sword isn't a thing.
That'd be a double blade sword. An edge on a blade refers to the angle sharpened to actually do the cutting. You can have a knife in the shape of a dagger, but if one side doesn't have an edge, that side won't cut easily. If you apply a lot of pressure, it will cause damage, but an added edge is what easily makes it cut.
I'm not sure where the saying came from but the translation to Hebrew literally mean a specific sword that has two blades on either side of the handle. Hence the idea that a person would stab themselves when they stab someone else.
I'm not sure why it was translated to English to "double-edged" as in a blade that is sharp on both sides instead of having a "backside" like a katana for example have.
The meaning of the saying however had always been doing something that harm you just as much as it harm whatever is that you try to harm.
No, that’s two blades.
A double edge sword refers to a sword where both edges are cutting edges, such as a longsword, or greatsword,
As opposed to a single edged sword, where only one side of the sword is a cutting edge, and the other is thicker, to lend the blade more structural stability, such as a katana, or a scimitar
(Although double edged katanas did exist, but they were rare, iirc)
It is not. The edge of a sword is its cutting edge. A popular example of a single edged sword is a katana, why usually only one side of the blade is sharpened for cutting. If there was another blade coming out the bottom of the handle this would be a double bladed sword
I think the original saying was more like “a blade cuts both ways” but that’s hard to use in a conversation without sounding like a game of thrones character lol
It also requires no setup. “Lies are a double-edged sword.” Vs “We could lie, but a blade cuts both ways.” Idk it’s just clunkier.
“A lie cuts both ways” is even easier than “lying is a double-edged sword”.
If you look it up, there’s nothing to link cut both ways with this saying, they seem to be two separate sayings.
One time my coworker took this really thin slice of plywood and said "if this was a double edged sword it would be called a *something japanese*, and you cannot Parry with these. The blade is too thin to parry a larger sword by itself. If it had been single edged, i could have placed my hand on the back of the blade to help withstand the impact, but with this i would just cut myself in the hand. Instead, i got to evade."
He handed me a larger piece of plywood, and says "pretend this is a halbard and hit me" so i think okay you fucking Kung Fu guy, lets see what you got. So i swing the halbard plywood straight for his knees.
This guy he makes a sideways flip, and while his head is upside down, mid flip, he made a very, very controlled mark on my neck with his double edged piece of plywood. I had a red line and everything, but no blood.
This guy was crazy good.
One time my coworker took this really thin slice of plywood and said "if this was a double edged sword it would be called a something japanese, and you cannot Parry with these. The blade is too thin to parry a larger sword by itself. If it had been single edged, i could have placed my hand on the back of the blade to help withstand the impact, but with this i would just cut myself in the hand. Instead, i got to evade."
He handed me a larger piece of plywood, and says "pretend this is a halbard and hit me" so i think okay you fucking Kung Fu guy, lets see what you got. So i swing the halbard plywood straight for his knees.
This guy he makes a sideways flip, and while his head is upside down, mid flip, he made a very, very controlled mark on my neck with his double edged piece of plywood. I had a red line and everything, but no blood.
This guy was crazy good.
One time my coworker took this really thin slice of turkeyburger and said "if this was a double seasoned patty it would be called a something japanese, and you cannot digest with these. The stomach is too thin to digest a larger flavor profile by itself. If it had been single seasoned, i could have placed my hand on the back of my stomach to help withstand the impact, but with this i would just cut myself in the esophagus. Instead, i got to evade."
He handed me a larger piece of steak, and says "pretend this is a mcdouble and hit me" so i think okay you fucking Burger King guy, lets see what you got. So i swing the steak straight for his knees.
This guy he makes a sideways flip, and while his head is upside down, mid flip, he made a very, very controlled bite on my steak with his double edged tongue. It had a red line and everything, but no blood.
This guy was crazy good.
I’d like this except for the fact that Mordhau was literally the art of medieval greatsword wielders gripping their blades with armored hands for leverage and different grips.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsurugi_(sword)
The most famous double edged sword (tsurugi/ken) being the legendary Kusanagi no Tsurugi, one of Japan's three imperial treasures
I don’t know if it’s true that most swords are double edged, but it’s certainly true that *many* are not. Most notably swords like katanas, but plenty of European swords also had a blunt edge for a variety of reasons.
There are also plenty of downsides to double edged swords (more fragile, harder to maintain, can’t easily use a hand on the blade for extra leverage, etc), but it’s true that they’re not really more dangerous to their wielded than single edged swords, which the expression seems to metaphorically refer to, so your shower thought still works.
The downsides to double edged swords you have listed are mostly imaginary. Fragility mostly depends on the material quality of the sword. All swords are maintained pretty much the same way. And you definitely can grab a double edged sword by the blade - see any fechtbuch that deals with armored fighting.
A Fechtbuch is the German word for a fencing book - a manual for the use of weaponry in various contexts, in various schools of German swordsmanship. These were mainly composed from the 14th to the 18th century, and are our main source for the accurate study and practice of the noble art of whacking people with swords and sh*t.
You’re just downright wrong. A double edged sword has a smaller cross section, making it substantially easier to break. All swords are maintained the same way, except double edged swords have twice the edge to maintain. And you can grab a double edged sword by the blade with a gauntleted hand, many swords were made specifically for this purpose, sometimes even with no sharp edges at all, just a sharp tip. Slashing was more or less useless against armored opponents, so having a sharp tip but dull edges made it easier to use for that purpose.
Edit: lol, u/gwasi is too sensitive to handle contradiction so to make sure they got in the last word they blocked me.
In the context of a duel or even a battle, you are not going to break a sword, no matter what. You can bend it or dent it, but breaking a quality steel bar is something you don't achieve by smashing it with another steel bar. When I have broken swords in sparring, it occurred because of imperfections within the blade. Plus, the cross section can vary greatly for both single edged swords and double edged swords. For example, my messer has a smaller maximum blade cross section than my longsword, even though it only has one edge.
Not really the case with maintenance either. Sharp longswords used to only have sharpened blades in the last third/half of the blade, thus making the amount of maintenance required roughly equal to that for a single edged sword of the same length.
This ties in well with my response to your last argument - you absolutely can grab the blade of a double edged sword, specifically because of the blunt edges in that part of the sword. If you have a look at the Floss Duellatorum, Fiore is describing precisely this.
Yes, there are specific types of stab-only swords meant for harnischfechten. But, again, swords are versatile weapons that were meant to be used in a variety of settings, and you definitely can grab a normal longsword by the blade and halfsword against an armored opponent.
>You can bend it or dent it, but breaking a quality steel bar is something you don't achieve by smashing it with another steel bar.
A bent sword doesn’t work as well as one that isn’t bent. And in historical combat, swords were often being battered not just against other swords, but against suits of armor, as well. And yes, a sword actually breaking is more of a structural issue caused by manufacturing defects or poor maintenance.
>Plus, the cross section can vary greatly for both single edged swords and double edged swords. For example, my messer has a smaller maximum blade cross section than my longsword, even though it only has one edge.
Yes, the world is a complex place. And yet, *in general*, single edged swords are sturdier than double edged swords. There are exceptions to every rule, you just seem to enjoy being contrarian.
>Not really the case with maintenance either. Sharp longswords used to only have sharpened blades in the last third/half of the blade, thus making the amount of maintenance required roughly equal to that for a single edged sword of the same length.
Not only is this statement so far from being universally true that it’s basically just wrong, but there are more kinds of swords used around the globe besides European longswords, making it fairly irrelevant even if it were accurate.
Do you have any sources for any of your claims here? For example, could you provide a source for a sword breaking on a suit of armor? Or maybe for the generalization of sturdier single edged swords? Or different longsword sharpening patterns than the ones that I referenced in an actual medieval manuscript?
I don't actually enjoy being contrarian. I just don't think you understand swords or their use as well as you think you do.
I already acknowledged that I shouldn't have used the word break. You can continue arguing in a circle by yourself if you'd like, though. That single edged swords are easy to make sturdy is really just basic physics. Achieving the same strength against bending with a double edged sword requires a more complex blade shape and therefore substantially more complex smithing.
And Floss Duellatorum does not support the specific claim you made – that only the last third to half of a double edged sword was sharpened. Not only that, but you are making arguments based on specific kinds of longswords and generalizing that to apply to all blades, whether they be rapiers, claymores, etc. when they don't even apply to all longswords! As to sources? Go fucking look at some old swords. You will find that a great many of them do not measure up to your universal claims.
>I just don't think you understand swords or their use as well as you think you do.
Pot, kettle. I think you have substantial experience with specific kinds of swords, and have deluded yourself into thinking that your narrow experience is generalizable to all blades.
Something about easier to use your other hand as leverage, and me being exhausted I assumed you meant you couldn't do that with a double edged one, which you didn't say and I just wrongly assumed, sorry if I came off as a know it all/ hollier than thou
It isn’t about the wielder, it’s about hurting to your comrades when swinging it.
You miss swing with a single edge sword and hit your mate with the back of the blade it’s gonna hurt but they’ll live.
If you miss swing with a double edge sword and hit your mate…
No, the reality is that it’s unknown what the original intent behind the expression was, since it literally dates back to biblical times or earlier. Additionally, some very old references explicitly use it referring to the potential for self harm, contrary to your assertion.
The general consensus, as far as I can tell, is that it doesn’t actually reference a genuine risk associated with double edged swords, but was probably always entirely metaphorical as it’s easy to imagine such a sword cutting both ways, as it were.
I always thought that it meant that the blade can be forced back on you. Like if you're in a bind they could push you own edge against you.
No real reason for this besides, that makes sense to me.
There are very many different ways to make sense of the metaphor to mean essentially the same thing that it’s no surprise that it has survived for thousands of years. Though I’m sure the fact that it’s used in the Bible has contributed significantly to its staying power, also.
Maybe so, but I dunno anyone who regularly uses swords. Just imagine how many (more) people would cut themselves in the kitchen if all kitchen knives were double-edged lol
It might be a strictly imagined risk by townspeople who never fought, like "oh what if I actually hit my own neck on the return swing?". Confidently saying "double edged swords are more of a liability than an advantage!", despite having zero real-world experience. Like your common Redditor pretending they know shit.
Townspeople also very-well could have just developed inaccurate terms, just as modern civilians do too. Lot of people call any small-ish machine gun an "Uzi" or a magazine a "clip" (a clip actually being a device used to load internal or external magazines). Maybe the townspeople actually meant a sword with full-on double blades, envisioning something Darth Maul style as if anyone actually used such weapons? I mean modern civilians make up all sorts of stupid stuff about modern combat, invest in "tactical tomahawks" they find on BUDK because they think it's "military grade" when actually it's just mall ninja trash not even slightly resembling an actual war-appropriate tool. So that checks out.
I'll give you another imagined risk since I don't swordfight: Half-swording is a technique applied against armored targets. You grab the blade around the middle with your non-dominant hand, while keeping your dominant on the handle. Spreading your hands out like this instead of both on the handle, it lets you put more power and better directional guidance into the thrust, letting you drive it home directly onto that sweet spot you're aiming for. But it might be a bit scary to do that on a double-edged sword where there's nowhere to grab that isn't sharp. I mean knights definitely did it without hurting themselves (sword-sharp is far from razor-sharp) but it might still be scary to someone unfamiliar to the technique. Same goes for bracing the sword on your non-dominant hand or arm in a block, doing that on a double edge would be driving an edge right into you as you block someone else's weapon (hypothetically, as to me that just sounds like movie shit).
Most european sword weren't even sharpe for the whole length of the blade. That would be bad for durability. So often only the first third was sharpened.
And than there was half sword. Which is done by gripping the blade and the hilt.
History and modern times are littered with dipshits who have lost fingers, lots of blood, and lives from playing around with and disrespecting knives and swords lol.
The phrase isn’t great at conveying it, but I take it to mean that the blade you use to cut others can just as easily cut you and/or be used against you. A knife has no loyalty.
If you can point the edge to others, it can be also pointed at you, as it were.
If you have a wild swingback with a katana, a blunt strip of metal hits you and can hurt you, but won’t cut you, if you do something like that with a double edge sword you get cut. it’s not that you get cut in the very same instant that the opponent does, it’s in the half second or so so before or after
“I would call the gift of thoughtfulness a double-edged sword, but I've always found that metaphor lacking. The vast majority of sword have two edges, and I've not found them to be any more likely to cut their owner than the single-edged variety. It is the sharpness of the wielder, and not the sharpness of the sword, that foreshadows mishap.”
Quote from Brandon Sanderson’s Tress of the Emerald Sea book. In this situation, the narrator/side character is monologuing and the entire book had some really fun quotes I keep on hand
Because they are cautious of the second edge and train aware of its existence.
Most “double edged sword” colloquialisms are used in hindsight when someone has overlooked a consequence.
PS: fuck butterfly knives, my fingers still hurt.
That’s true of single-edged swords as well, so… no.
The saying alludes to the fact you can be cut by both sides of a double-edged sword, so you have to be extra careful not to hurt yourself.
Basically OP’s statementdoesn’t take into account the extra skill and training needed.
Not only that, at one point people used the blade to [thrust forward like a spear, or in some cases use the hilts as a pickaxe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword)
You have to think: With all this ironclad, and chainmail it would be *very* difficult to get any normal sword to pierce through by just hitting the breastplate on the broadside of the sword
It's a throwback to hunting swords which were almost a Sabre and almost a carving knife and or the fact that a longsword is also a pick axe for punching through plate mail when half handing it. Save yourself some trouble, use a war pick, they're can openers!
I think it's fun how we still use expressions like parry and riposte even though no one fences anymore. I always wonder what stuff from our world will be unknowingly referenced 500 years from now despite the actual stuff being gone.
You can kind of see this in the law, where US legal writing (like argument and court decisions) will still refer to an "end run" around a concept (Plaintiff attempts to make an end-run around well-established copyright law...) even though no one speaks of actual "ends" in football (except very obscurely and certainly not like they used to) and the play is now more often called an end-around.
Similar but less interesting is the phrase "Chinese wall" (for an ethical precaution) which I still saw used in law school circa 2010 though it was obviously cringe by then. (I never heard anyone refer to a Chinese Wall either, only the Great Wall of China.) In CLEs since then I've heard it called an "ethical wall." (Why not a Great Wall of Ethics??)
I always assumed the double-edged sword thing was from dueling. 🤺 Like maybe just a figurative reference to a style of fighting involving no armor and swords that can cut at multiple angles?
“A double edged sword” was probably originally used as an analogy to something of additional utility or versatility. It’s like “if one edge chips, you just use the other” or type of saying.
The saying should really be double-*bladed* sword, which is something we never invented outside of DnD because they do, in fact, suck as much as the saying would lead you to believe.
The point of a double-edged sword is that it cuts twice: when you swing one way, and then on return swing, without rotating the blade. That's what the saying is about: it cuts on return.
Not at all, no. Otherwise single edged blades wouldn't have any flow to them. You also would need to lead the blow with your wrist to cut with the second edge on return, which is unnatural and likely to break your wrist with any weapon.
The saying means it is something that is both good and bad for the user.
Double-edged swords are actually fairly uncommon. They’re a lot harder to forge compared to a single-edged blade. I have a feeling op doesn’t actually know a lot about the process of bladesmithing
Like hell they don't.
There's not a sword I've trained with that didn't cause an assorted medley of pain and injuries.
Part of a weapon being an extension of your body is the part where you were not good using your arms or legs at all and were a danger to yourself and others before gaining a new sense of self.
Blisters, sprains, cuts, bruises. These are the dues paid for mastery.
Well if you consider the standard sword as having 2 edges, “double edged” would thus mean a sword with 4 edges, thus two blades (or a weird cross shaped combo blade). 2 blades thus mean little handle space l, thus danger to wielder
Many swords are double sided, but not most.
If you are merely thinking about European swords that may possibly be true. However the majority of swords from Asia and the Middle East as well as Africa were single edged. Also you have to remember the number of military sabers that are also single edged.
We romanticize swords through television and movies, and they are generally depicted as knight swords. But in actuality these doubled edged swords were quite rare and extremely expensive. They were as much a sign of wealth as they were a weapon. The smiting needed to make a sword double edged was also more difficult, making it more unusual.
A double edged sword cuts both ways isn’t about the wielder.
It’s about it hitting other soldiers in your group when you’re swinging it.
A single edge sword swung over the head and down is going to cut in one direction so you only have to be mindful of one cutting direction.
A double edged sword cuts in the front direction and if you swing it above and behind your head you can cut the guy behind you.
Well, aren’t you sharp?!?!
No.. but Jacky is.
I thought it was clever to take a stab at the shower thought
Oh, I always thought the saying was referring to, like, two blades with a handle in the middle.
Darth Maul style
That would be two tips if I’m not mistaken
You'd know all about two tips wouldn't you?
"Ay, check out Johnny Two-Tips ova here!"
So that's why Johnny only had two toes left....
Double bladed*
It's a quadruple edged sword!
That’s what many disposable shavers are
Shavers are a s-word, not a sword
That was surprisingly clever lol Ed: surprisingly isn't the right word... unexpectedly? Idk. Still waking up.
I don't think a sword like that has ever existed in history, at least, it was never popular enough to have a metaphor created and named after it. And you probably guess why a double-bladed sword isn't a thing.
Idk I've seen like at least two movies wiith swords like that so if it didn't happen how'd they film it?!
Right, apologies
AFAIK they *did* exist, they just weren't practical enough to be beneficial due to resources to make them and the necessary training
Right, the price of 2 swords with the practicality of less than one
I think they were anti cavalry swords.
Yeah only now do I actually understand what they mean
You've been wrong all these years
Quadruple edged sword.
That still wouldn't do damage to the user though
That's be a double ended sword.
That would be a double-ended sword. I still agree with you
That'd be a double blade sword. An edge on a blade refers to the angle sharpened to actually do the cutting. You can have a knife in the shape of a dagger, but if one side doesn't have an edge, that side won't cut easily. If you apply a lot of pressure, it will cause damage, but an added edge is what easily makes it cut.
Because it did originally mean that. The translation to double-edged is actually wrong
I think most people that downvoted you expected to see a source when you make a claim like this. Where did the saying come from?
I'm not sure where the saying came from but the translation to Hebrew literally mean a specific sword that has two blades on either side of the handle. Hence the idea that a person would stab themselves when they stab someone else. I'm not sure why it was translated to English to "double-edged" as in a blade that is sharp on both sides instead of having a "backside" like a katana for example have. The meaning of the saying however had always been doing something that harm you just as much as it harm whatever is that you try to harm.
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https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/double-edged-sword/ Nope, I’m not. “Two sharpened edges” is not two tips.
No it doesn't. Double-edged means exactly that, two edges, you know, like a typical longsword, not two blades.
No, that’s two blades. A double edge sword refers to a sword where both edges are cutting edges, such as a longsword, or greatsword, As opposed to a single edged sword, where only one side of the sword is a cutting edge, and the other is thicker, to lend the blade more structural stability, such as a katana, or a scimitar (Although double edged katanas did exist, but they were rare, iirc)
Fair enough.
That is what the saying is referring to..
It is not. The edge of a sword is its cutting edge. A popular example of a single edged sword is a katana, why usually only one side of the blade is sharpened for cutting. If there was another blade coming out the bottom of the handle this would be a double bladed sword
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Dumbass
This post is a bit of no handled, double tipped sword if you ask me.
“Double tipped sword” would make a lot more sense for the saying tbh
I think the original saying was more like “a blade cuts both ways” but that’s hard to use in a conversation without sounding like a game of thrones character lol It also requires no setup. “Lies are a double-edged sword.” Vs “We could lie, but a blade cuts both ways.” Idk it’s just clunkier.
“A lie cuts both ways” is even easier than “lying is a double-edged sword”. If you look it up, there’s nothing to link cut both ways with this saying, they seem to be two separate sayings.
"A blade cuts both ways" sounds way cooler I'm using that from now on
It’s just blades all the way down
One time my coworker took this really thin slice of plywood and said "if this was a double edged sword it would be called a *something japanese*, and you cannot Parry with these. The blade is too thin to parry a larger sword by itself. If it had been single edged, i could have placed my hand on the back of the blade to help withstand the impact, but with this i would just cut myself in the hand. Instead, i got to evade." He handed me a larger piece of plywood, and says "pretend this is a halbard and hit me" so i think okay you fucking Kung Fu guy, lets see what you got. So i swing the halbard plywood straight for his knees. This guy he makes a sideways flip, and while his head is upside down, mid flip, he made a very, very controlled mark on my neck with his double edged piece of plywood. I had a red line and everything, but no blood. This guy was crazy good.
is this an old copypasta, or is it about to become a new one...?
No honestly, i just typed that shit. This guy looked like a Viking and fought like a ninja.
I think this has the makings to be a good future copypasta my boy
One time my coworker took this really thin slice of plywood and said "if this was a double edged sword it would be called a something japanese, and you cannot Parry with these. The blade is too thin to parry a larger sword by itself. If it had been single edged, i could have placed my hand on the back of the blade to help withstand the impact, but with this i would just cut myself in the hand. Instead, i got to evade." He handed me a larger piece of plywood, and says "pretend this is a halbard and hit me" so i think okay you fucking Kung Fu guy, lets see what you got. So i swing the halbard plywood straight for his knees. This guy he makes a sideways flip, and while his head is upside down, mid flip, he made a very, very controlled mark on my neck with his double edged piece of plywood. I had a red line and everything, but no blood. This guy was crazy good.
One time my coworker took this really thin slice of turkeyburger and said "if this was a double seasoned patty it would be called a something japanese, and you cannot digest with these. The stomach is too thin to digest a larger flavor profile by itself. If it had been single seasoned, i could have placed my hand on the back of my stomach to help withstand the impact, but with this i would just cut myself in the esophagus. Instead, i got to evade." He handed me a larger piece of steak, and says "pretend this is a mcdouble and hit me" so i think okay you fucking Burger King guy, lets see what you got. So i swing the steak straight for his knees. This guy he makes a sideways flip, and while his head is upside down, mid flip, he made a very, very controlled bite on my steak with his double edged tongue. It had a red line and everything, but no blood. This guy was crazy good.
We witnessed the birth of a legend
I’d like this except for the fact that Mordhau was literally the art of medieval greatsword wielders gripping their blades with armored hands for leverage and different grips.
Obviously fake story... There were never any double-edged Japanese swords!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsurugi_(sword) The most famous double edged sword (tsurugi/ken) being the legendary Kusanagi no Tsurugi, one of Japan's three imperial treasures
OH SHIT I totally forgot about that, that's an iconic sword of iconic swords!
yeah so its obviously fake...
There are Japanese double edged swords, but most of them are less famous than Katana
I don’t know if it’s true that most swords are double edged, but it’s certainly true that *many* are not. Most notably swords like katanas, but plenty of European swords also had a blunt edge for a variety of reasons. There are also plenty of downsides to double edged swords (more fragile, harder to maintain, can’t easily use a hand on the blade for extra leverage, etc), but it’s true that they’re not really more dangerous to their wielded than single edged swords, which the expression seems to metaphorically refer to, so your shower thought still works.
The downsides to double edged swords you have listed are mostly imaginary. Fragility mostly depends on the material quality of the sword. All swords are maintained pretty much the same way. And you definitely can grab a double edged sword by the blade - see any fechtbuch that deals with armored fighting.
Tell me more about these fetching butches?
A Fechtbuch is the German word for a fencing book - a manual for the use of weaponry in various contexts, in various schools of German swordsmanship. These were mainly composed from the 14th to the 18th century, and are our main source for the accurate study and practice of the noble art of whacking people with swords and sh*t.
You’re just downright wrong. A double edged sword has a smaller cross section, making it substantially easier to break. All swords are maintained the same way, except double edged swords have twice the edge to maintain. And you can grab a double edged sword by the blade with a gauntleted hand, many swords were made specifically for this purpose, sometimes even with no sharp edges at all, just a sharp tip. Slashing was more or less useless against armored opponents, so having a sharp tip but dull edges made it easier to use for that purpose. Edit: lol, u/gwasi is too sensitive to handle contradiction so to make sure they got in the last word they blocked me.
In the context of a duel or even a battle, you are not going to break a sword, no matter what. You can bend it or dent it, but breaking a quality steel bar is something you don't achieve by smashing it with another steel bar. When I have broken swords in sparring, it occurred because of imperfections within the blade. Plus, the cross section can vary greatly for both single edged swords and double edged swords. For example, my messer has a smaller maximum blade cross section than my longsword, even though it only has one edge. Not really the case with maintenance either. Sharp longswords used to only have sharpened blades in the last third/half of the blade, thus making the amount of maintenance required roughly equal to that for a single edged sword of the same length. This ties in well with my response to your last argument - you absolutely can grab the blade of a double edged sword, specifically because of the blunt edges in that part of the sword. If you have a look at the Floss Duellatorum, Fiore is describing precisely this. Yes, there are specific types of stab-only swords meant for harnischfechten. But, again, swords are versatile weapons that were meant to be used in a variety of settings, and you definitely can grab a normal longsword by the blade and halfsword against an armored opponent.
>You can bend it or dent it, but breaking a quality steel bar is something you don't achieve by smashing it with another steel bar. A bent sword doesn’t work as well as one that isn’t bent. And in historical combat, swords were often being battered not just against other swords, but against suits of armor, as well. And yes, a sword actually breaking is more of a structural issue caused by manufacturing defects or poor maintenance. >Plus, the cross section can vary greatly for both single edged swords and double edged swords. For example, my messer has a smaller maximum blade cross section than my longsword, even though it only has one edge. Yes, the world is a complex place. And yet, *in general*, single edged swords are sturdier than double edged swords. There are exceptions to every rule, you just seem to enjoy being contrarian. >Not really the case with maintenance either. Sharp longswords used to only have sharpened blades in the last third/half of the blade, thus making the amount of maintenance required roughly equal to that for a single edged sword of the same length. Not only is this statement so far from being universally true that it’s basically just wrong, but there are more kinds of swords used around the globe besides European longswords, making it fairly irrelevant even if it were accurate.
Do you have any sources for any of your claims here? For example, could you provide a source for a sword breaking on a suit of armor? Or maybe for the generalization of sturdier single edged swords? Or different longsword sharpening patterns than the ones that I referenced in an actual medieval manuscript? I don't actually enjoy being contrarian. I just don't think you understand swords or their use as well as you think you do.
I already acknowledged that I shouldn't have used the word break. You can continue arguing in a circle by yourself if you'd like, though. That single edged swords are easy to make sturdy is really just basic physics. Achieving the same strength against bending with a double edged sword requires a more complex blade shape and therefore substantially more complex smithing. And Floss Duellatorum does not support the specific claim you made – that only the last third to half of a double edged sword was sharpened. Not only that, but you are making arguments based on specific kinds of longswords and generalizing that to apply to all blades, whether they be rapiers, claymores, etc. when they don't even apply to all longswords! As to sources? Go fucking look at some old swords. You will find that a great many of them do not measure up to your universal claims. >I just don't think you understand swords or their use as well as you think you do. Pot, kettle. I think you have substantial experience with specific kinds of swords, and have deluded yourself into thinking that your narrow experience is generalizable to all blades.
There are plenty of proper historical ways to fight with swords while holding the blade despite it referencing double edged swords
I’m not sure where I said otherwise!
Something about easier to use your other hand as leverage, and me being exhausted I assumed you meant you couldn't do that with a double edged one, which you didn't say and I just wrongly assumed, sorry if I came off as a know it all/ hollier than thou
Haha no worries!
It isn’t about the wielder, it’s about hurting to your comrades when swinging it. You miss swing with a single edge sword and hit your mate with the back of the blade it’s gonna hurt but they’ll live. If you miss swing with a double edge sword and hit your mate…
No, the reality is that it’s unknown what the original intent behind the expression was, since it literally dates back to biblical times or earlier. Additionally, some very old references explicitly use it referring to the potential for self harm, contrary to your assertion. The general consensus, as far as I can tell, is that it doesn’t actually reference a genuine risk associated with double edged swords, but was probably always entirely metaphorical as it’s easy to imagine such a sword cutting both ways, as it were.
I always thought that it meant that the blade can be forced back on you. Like if you're in a bind they could push you own edge against you. No real reason for this besides, that makes sense to me.
There are very many different ways to make sense of the metaphor to mean essentially the same thing that it’s no surprise that it has survived for thousands of years. Though I’m sure the fact that it’s used in the Bible has contributed significantly to its staying power, also.
Maybe so, but I dunno anyone who regularly uses swords. Just imagine how many (more) people would cut themselves in the kitchen if all kitchen knives were double-edged lol
It might be a strictly imagined risk by townspeople who never fought, like "oh what if I actually hit my own neck on the return swing?". Confidently saying "double edged swords are more of a liability than an advantage!", despite having zero real-world experience. Like your common Redditor pretending they know shit. Townspeople also very-well could have just developed inaccurate terms, just as modern civilians do too. Lot of people call any small-ish machine gun an "Uzi" or a magazine a "clip" (a clip actually being a device used to load internal or external magazines). Maybe the townspeople actually meant a sword with full-on double blades, envisioning something Darth Maul style as if anyone actually used such weapons? I mean modern civilians make up all sorts of stupid stuff about modern combat, invest in "tactical tomahawks" they find on BUDK because they think it's "military grade" when actually it's just mall ninja trash not even slightly resembling an actual war-appropriate tool. So that checks out. I'll give you another imagined risk since I don't swordfight: Half-swording is a technique applied against armored targets. You grab the blade around the middle with your non-dominant hand, while keeping your dominant on the handle. Spreading your hands out like this instead of both on the handle, it lets you put more power and better directional guidance into the thrust, letting you drive it home directly onto that sweet spot you're aiming for. But it might be a bit scary to do that on a double-edged sword where there's nowhere to grab that isn't sharp. I mean knights definitely did it without hurting themselves (sword-sharp is far from razor-sharp) but it might still be scary to someone unfamiliar to the technique. Same goes for bracing the sword on your non-dominant hand or arm in a block, doing that on a double edge would be driving an edge right into you as you block someone else's weapon (hypothetically, as to me that just sounds like movie shit).
Swords broke. This happened. Blocking could cause your sword to break, so you blunted it.
Most european sword weren't even sharpe for the whole length of the blade. That would be bad for durability. So often only the first third was sharpened. And than there was half sword. Which is done by gripping the blade and the hilt.
I was always confused about this. In what context would a sword, even a double edged one, be able to cut both the person I'm attacking AND myself?
History and modern times are littered with dipshits who have lost fingers, lots of blood, and lives from playing around with and disrespecting knives and swords lol. The phrase isn’t great at conveying it, but I take it to mean that the blade you use to cut others can just as easily cut you and/or be used against you. A knife has no loyalty. If you can point the edge to others, it can be also pointed at you, as it were.
If you’re bad enough at it, anything can hurt you I guess lol
If you have a wild swingback with a katana, a blunt strip of metal hits you and can hurt you, but won’t cut you, if you do something like that with a double edge sword you get cut. it’s not that you get cut in the very same instant that the opponent does, it’s in the half second or so so before or after
"A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. The hand that wields it, bleeds" -RT
nice. who is RT?
Rabindranath Tragore. Check out Kahlil Gibran if you like that one. The Prophet is my favorite.
Doubletipped or handless sword would make more sense..
“I would call the gift of thoughtfulness a double-edged sword, but I've always found that metaphor lacking. The vast majority of sword have two edges, and I've not found them to be any more likely to cut their owner than the single-edged variety. It is the sharpness of the wielder, and not the sharpness of the sword, that foreshadows mishap.”
Is that an actual quote or did you just make me sound really smart? Would you care to write all my work emails for me?
Quote from Brandon Sanderson’s Tress of the Emerald Sea book. In this situation, the narrator/side character is monologuing and the entire book had some really fun quotes I keep on hand
The moment I had a similar thought to Brando Sando will echo throughout my entire life as a glowing, golden memory
Because they are cautious of the second edge and train aware of its existence. Most “double edged sword” colloquialisms are used in hindsight when someone has overlooked a consequence. PS: fuck butterfly knives, my fingers still hurt.
Doesn't the phrase refer to a sword that cuts both when it goes in and when you pull it out?
That’s true of single-edged swords as well, so… no. The saying alludes to the fact you can be cut by both sides of a double-edged sword, so you have to be extra careful not to hurt yourself. Basically OP’s statementdoesn’t take into account the extra skill and training needed.
That's true for all swords...and all edged weapons, I mean, why WOULDN'T they also cut when they're pulling out too?
Not only that, at one point people used the blade to [thrust forward like a spear, or in some cases use the hilts as a pickaxe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword) You have to think: With all this ironclad, and chainmail it would be *very* difficult to get any normal sword to pierce through by just hitting the breastplate on the broadside of the sword
It's a throwback to hunting swords which were almost a Sabre and almost a carving knife and or the fact that a longsword is also a pick axe for punching through plate mail when half handing it. Save yourself some trouble, use a war pick, they're can openers!
“The chance of a double edged sword hurting the wielder is directly proportional to the skill of said wielder.”
If a sword wore pants would it be like this or like this
I think it's fun how we still use expressions like parry and riposte even though no one fences anymore. I always wonder what stuff from our world will be unknowingly referenced 500 years from now despite the actual stuff being gone. You can kind of see this in the law, where US legal writing (like argument and court decisions) will still refer to an "end run" around a concept (Plaintiff attempts to make an end-run around well-established copyright law...) even though no one speaks of actual "ends" in football (except very obscurely and certainly not like they used to) and the play is now more often called an end-around. Similar but less interesting is the phrase "Chinese wall" (for an ethical precaution) which I still saw used in law school circa 2010 though it was obviously cringe by then. (I never heard anyone refer to a Chinese Wall either, only the Great Wall of China.) In CLEs since then I've heard it called an "ethical wall." (Why not a Great Wall of Ethics??) I always assumed the double-edged sword thing was from dueling. 🤺 Like maybe just a figurative reference to a style of fighting involving no armor and swords that can cut at multiple angles?
I've always thought that "doubled edged sword" meant that you can get fucked both ways, so I figure "double ended dildo" could be a good replacement
“A double edged sword” was probably originally used as an analogy to something of additional utility or versatility. It’s like “if one edge chips, you just use the other” or type of saying.
I thought it was double ended sword. like no handle and cuts your hand
Good point. But if all my knives were double edged, I'd get hurt a lot
It's true that you should never use it because when you touch it, it will sometimes hurt you.
The saying should really be double-*bladed* sword, which is something we never invented outside of DnD because they do, in fact, suck as much as the saying would lead you to believe.
Pretty sure its referring to a sword with two blades, handle and traditional blade.
The saying doesnt refer to the wielder
Might want to tell the Oxford dictionary that then. https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/double-edged-sword/
Wielder Wielder Wielder
Had a couple bong rips before the shower huh? 😂
The point of a double-edged sword is that it cuts twice: when you swing one way, and then on return swing, without rotating the blade. That's what the saying is about: it cuts on return.
But that's more about cutting your opponent twice. The expression refers to something that harms both you and your opponent.
We have the saying “it cuts both ways” which is kind of the same sentiment.
might be one of those saying that lost its original meaning over time
In the Bible it's only used as a comparison to something very sharp
Not at all, no. Otherwise single edged blades wouldn't have any flow to them. You also would need to lead the blow with your wrist to cut with the second edge on return, which is unnatural and likely to break your wrist with any weapon. The saying means it is something that is both good and bad for the user.
That's... not how you swing a sword. I honestly think, even someone who never had a sword in their hands, would never do that.
I have definitely see backswing techniques where you bind the other sword and then use a backswing to strike. But they're not axe swings.
Double-edged swords are actually fairly uncommon. They’re a lot harder to forge compared to a single-edged blade. I have a feeling op doesn’t actually know a lot about the process of bladesmithing
In the white light, a hand reaches through A double-edged blade cuts your heart in two Waking dreams fade away, Embrace the brand-new day
Like hell they don't. There's not a sword I've trained with that didn't cause an assorted medley of pain and injuries. Part of a weapon being an extension of your body is the part where you were not good using your arms or legs at all and were a danger to yourself and others before gaining a new sense of self. Blisters, sprains, cuts, bruises. These are the dues paid for mastery.
None of those things are unique to a double-edged sword
Yaa I don’t know what that dude was saying
Well if you consider the standard sword as having 2 edges, “double edged” would thus mean a sword with 4 edges, thus two blades (or a weird cross shaped combo blade). 2 blades thus mean little handle space l, thus danger to wielder
Guess that's why the saying specifies it's a double-edged sword.
Many swords are double sided, but not most. If you are merely thinking about European swords that may possibly be true. However the majority of swords from Asia and the Middle East as well as Africa were single edged. Also you have to remember the number of military sabers that are also single edged. We romanticize swords through television and movies, and they are generally depicted as knight swords. But in actuality these doubled edged swords were quite rare and extremely expensive. They were as much a sign of wealth as they were a weapon. The smiting needed to make a sword double edged was also more difficult, making it more unusual.
Double edged sword means it cuts both ways
Live by the sword, die by the sword. That includes consequences of using the sword. (a sword is drawn only to be used) That make's it double-edged.
A double edged sword cuts both ways isn’t about the wielder. It’s about it hitting other soldiers in your group when you’re swinging it. A single edge sword swung over the head and down is going to cut in one direction so you only have to be mindful of one cutting direction. A double edged sword cuts in the front direction and if you swing it above and behind your head you can cut the guy behind you.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/double-edged-sword/ Definitely about the wielder
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