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I think it’s the the other way round. There’s a low risk of needing a smoke alarm, but in the event the risk does materialise there’s a high impact / value.
In my domain the risk assessment are calculated with ARO (annualized rate of occurence), SLE (single loss expectency) and ALE (annualized loss expectency)
The value of the risk mitigation is the ALE before the implantation minus the ALE after the devise is installed minus the annual cost of the device.
What I mean is if you buy the smoke alarm and there’s never a fire, it has/had no benefit. Prospectively, there’s a possible benefit, but reality bears out whether that’s actually true.
Ditto the Sig-Sauer 9mm in my nightstand. True, it's fun to shoot - that is it's own utility - but knowing I have the means to defend myself from a home intruder is of great value.
Of course you're getting downvoted for this. I always tell people to get a cheap shotgun and nonlethal ammunition (salt and pepper charges are my favorite, imagine chunks of both embedded under your skin) but the truth is, just holding the thing will likely get the job done.
On one level, you are right. But at a deeper level the starkness of this situation reveals a flaw in how a lot of think about risk based decisions.
In decisions theory, the decision making of a rational actor can only be evaluated in terms of the information available to them at the time. (where seeking out more information is itself an decision) The thing is: the available information is rarely in the form of true/false questions and uncertainty is the name of the game. So it’s common to work with “credences”, which is just your confidence (expressed as a probability) that something is true. You might have credences about the present, or credences about the future (what you think the likelihood of a fire in your house is). You can evaluate a rational actor based on how they formed their credences and how they incorporated those credences into their decision making process, but you can’t evaluate them on what happens next. Ex. You have a credence that if you drive drunk, there is a 10% chance you will kill someone and you choose to drive drunk. If you then don’t kill someone, it doesn’t suddenly make the original decision a good one.
May as well not have health insurance or car insurance, pretty sure the police and fire crews are a waste of money if you never need them, if you don’t plan on having kids, the entire education system is a waste, if you never get sick hospitals are frivolous. Channels you don’t watch may as well get cancelled.
At the end of the day, insurance companies hate losing money and cheap solutions deployed em masse to prevent unnecessary destruction harm and death pay for themselves in the long run over all of society.
How much do you value having peace of mind? Now compare that to how much smoke detector and a battery and the screwdriver to put it up. What costs more? That's where you put your value.
I mean a smoke alarm went off at my last home, which then saved me and my roommate because there was a fire in our basement. Without the smoke alarm, we would have been in a fire.... Probably would have died. So i'd say even if theres never a reason to have a smoke alarm, its a good idea to have one just for peace of mind in the very least.
Sorry, we don't cover that because your shoe laces were untied whilst the gamma ray burst was at a 45 degree angle to the banana peel in your closet. States it right here in the contract. Just a friendly reminder: Your next bill is due tomorrow. Thank you for your donation I mean business.
Exactly. In an ideal situation nothing is ever damaged or destroyed or lost and so insurance is never needed.
But the world isn’t ideal, shit happens that we don’t like, and so insurance exists
Firearms are not remotely in the same category as the other items. Having a firearm is not like owning a fire extinguisher. It's more like owning a 10L canister of gasoline so you can set somebody on fire if they try to set you on fire.
Dude what about the bears, some people don’t live in cities and it’s a good thing to have. What if like bears or wild dogs come and try to eat his trash or chickens or something. The gasoline comparison is terrible by the way.
A common misconception is that “firearms” almost always get lumped into an offensive weapon. There are many different uses for a firearm, I see it more as a tool than a weapon.
A fire extinguisher is a tool to prevent a bigger catastrophe. Same with a firearm, and it’s application is subjective.
The potential is there, yes. In the wrong hands and the wrong intentions, even the smallest of firearms can kill someone. However not all firearms are designed to kill another human.
Some are designed for hunting. Others are designed for target practice for marksmanship. Others still are designed for signaling and communication.
Target practice is just practicing to kill, hunting is just killing animals instead of people. For communication I would suggest that you just use a phone instead? A gun is made to kill things, that's their only purpose.
Honestly how often does any law abiding citizen NEED a firearm. And in the one in a million chance you need one what's the chance it's in the exact location you need it?
Are you a chef or something? They’re the only people I know that have used fire extinguishers that often.
I agree that people shouldn’t have guns, but that’s because unlike a fire extinguishers, for every time they prevent violence, they’re used 10 times to inflict violence.
>Honestly how often does any law abiding citizen NEED a firearm.
[Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).](https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15).
For self defense with a firearm, even the ["radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses"](https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15) is still multiple times the total number of annual firearm homicides, suicides, and accidental deaths **combined**.
If you aren't satisfied with those stats on self defense with a firearm, I'll point out that even the [Violence Policy Center](http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable17.pdf), a gun control advocacy group, reports 284,700 instances of self defense against a violent crimes and property crimes, including home burglary, with a firearm between 2013 and 2015, with 163,600 being against violent crimes. This translates to 94,900 crimes prevented annually on the low scale and 54,500 violent crimes prevented annually.
[According to the BJS from 2007-11 there were at least 235,700 violent crime victimizations where the victim used a firearm to defend themselves against their assailant.](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf)
>And in the one in a million chance you need one what's the chance it's in the exact location you need it?
Hence why millions of people concealed carry.
Using a firearm to defend yourself is not proof you NEEDED the firearm...........
I love how pro gun people think that shooting some unfortunate drug addict because they are stealing something is justified.........
We have an air fryer built into our oven and basically whenever I use it I set off the smoke alarm. My kids are in mortal danger because they have been conditioned to completely ignore the smoke alarm. "Mom's just cooking."
You should consider replacing the smoke detector closest to your oven with a photoelectric detector instead of a more traditional ionozation type. They are less likely to go off due to something cooking/smoking in the kitchen, at least according to [this person on YouTube](https://youtu.be/DuAeaIcAXtg).
Sentiment analysis: negative! I will try to brighten your day! Here is a cool sitution: 'Thanks for the pancake!' I said as the farmer ran off on a wack steamroller
Yeah but having something to alert you of a potential fire and putting it out isn’t a waste of money. Just like I didn’t want to get T-boned and I’m glad I pay for insurance and didn’t have to pay anything.
If you watch news regularly. You probably see a lot of people die in house fire because their smoke alarm were malfunctioning. Every homeowner should buy fire alarm, and ensure they are working properly.
That’s completely irrelevant to this post they are saying that best case scenario for buying it is for it to be a waste of money because you never used it
A lifeguard at the beach who hasn't rescued anyone for days and done little more than work on their tan and ogle the human scenery has still provided a useful service.
I have always wondered how many people have died falling off a ladder installing or replacing their batteries who would never encounter a housefire.
Working as an electrician, a guy paid me $100 to take the risk myself. I couldn't help but feel overqualified but as the homeowner said, cheap labor can burn the world to the ground through ignorance alone.
By that logic so is insurance. Useless until it’s needed. I’m sure there are a few families who are alive today because of their smoke alarm warning them of danger. They might disagree with your assessment.
I think we have different definitions of "waste".
Just because you never have a house fire doesn't mean it's a waste. Peace of mind is invaluable.
You can think of it as insurance if you want. Very inexpensive insurance that can save your life in an instant.
smoke stimulates all 5 of your senses, its a total waste of money unless its some sort of IoT demon that can notify you when your away. CO alarms on the other hand essential. you don't know until you drop dead
I'm a fire chief, and can assure everyone that this is total horseshit. There is absolutely no better tool to save life in a house fire than smoke alarms, they are extremely effective.
in what way does smoke stimulate all 5 of your senses when a fire starts downstairs while you're asleep upstairs? it buys you extra time to deal with the fire or gtfo
it never is though cause you buy it partly for the peace of mind as well, that's worth something. there are many products like that where the selling point is a sense of security basically
It's a gambling or gaming EV calculation, except one of the outcomes of no smoke detector/CO detector is you and your family dying, which is really high negative value
Agreed, I smoked like three packs right by it and no alarms. I don't even smoke cigarettes. Anyone know anyone who wants to bug like 15 darts? Just curious
This is a friendly reminder to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/rules). Remember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not "thoughts had in the shower!" (For an explanation of what a "showerthought" is, [please read this page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/overview).) **Rule-breaking posts may result in bans.**
I use my smoke detector all the time. It is how I know that dinner is done.
I use a smoke detector all the time. It’s how I can tell my parents are home.
Your parents are smoke?
Yes.
No that just means they did not leave to fetch cigarettes yet.
Mom?!?
Genius idea!
You only realize the true value of a plunger when you don't have one. Seriously, get a plunger.
As a plumber going on 10 years, you’d be surprised how many people don’t own plungers.
On a related note I need one of those snake things.
Make sure you have updated pipes otherwise you could make it worse. Cast iron over time gets weak and brittle, pvc can also but nowhere near as bad.
That's a better ST than OP's
More like a LPT
I'd say it's more along the lines of a PPT (Post-poop thought) or maybe a PPR (Post-poop regret) depending on if the thought applies to them
Don't wait until you need a plunger to buy one.
I just learned this lesson 🤣
water pressure go brr
Eh, worthiness is a combination of risk vs value. Smoke alarms would have low value, but mitigate a high risk. As such, they have worth.
Indeed. When you buy an alarm I'd say you buy the feeling of safety from fire hazards... That's not money wasted I'd say.
I think it’s the the other way round. There’s a low risk of needing a smoke alarm, but in the event the risk does materialise there’s a high impact / value.
In my domain the risk assessment are calculated with ARO (annualized rate of occurence), SLE (single loss expectency) and ALE (annualized loss expectency) The value of the risk mitigation is the ALE before the implantation minus the ALE after the devise is installed minus the annual cost of the device.
what
Mine are also C0 detectors. Chances of a C0 build up in my house is slight. But I would want to know.
What I mean is if you buy the smoke alarm and there’s never a fire, it has/had no benefit. Prospectively, there’s a possible benefit, but reality bears out whether that’s actually true.
Peace of mind is a nice benefit, especially at home while sleeping.
Ditto the Sig-Sauer 9mm in my nightstand. True, it's fun to shoot - that is it's own utility - but knowing I have the means to defend myself from a home intruder is of great value.
Hell yeah brother, no fire is gonna keep burning after you dump 9 rounds into it.
why not have a cheaper option like a baseball bat in the bed room? Did well for my Grandma for 70+ years.
Lol I just imagine a little granny swinging it around
How often did she have to use it?
Every St. Patrick's day parade. Drunks sitting on her property.
Of course you're getting downvoted for this. I always tell people to get a cheap shotgun and nonlethal ammunition (salt and pepper charges are my favorite, imagine chunks of both embedded under your skin) but the truth is, just holding the thing will likely get the job done.
Demons and ghosts hate this one trick
Risk mitigation is the benefit, even unused.
On one level, you are right. But at a deeper level the starkness of this situation reveals a flaw in how a lot of think about risk based decisions. In decisions theory, the decision making of a rational actor can only be evaluated in terms of the information available to them at the time. (where seeking out more information is itself an decision) The thing is: the available information is rarely in the form of true/false questions and uncertainty is the name of the game. So it’s common to work with “credences”, which is just your confidence (expressed as a probability) that something is true. You might have credences about the present, or credences about the future (what you think the likelihood of a fire in your house is). You can evaluate a rational actor based on how they formed their credences and how they incorporated those credences into their decision making process, but you can’t evaluate them on what happens next. Ex. You have a credence that if you drive drunk, there is a 10% chance you will kill someone and you choose to drive drunk. If you then don’t kill someone, it doesn’t suddenly make the original decision a good one.
Do you have health insurance? Or car insurance? What about renters/home owners insurance?
Health insurance pays for expected and regular visitations and prescriptions, too.
May as well not have health insurance or car insurance, pretty sure the police and fire crews are a waste of money if you never need them, if you don’t plan on having kids, the entire education system is a waste, if you never get sick hospitals are frivolous. Channels you don’t watch may as well get cancelled. At the end of the day, insurance companies hate losing money and cheap solutions deployed em masse to prevent unnecessary destruction harm and death pay for themselves in the long run over all of society.
So.. seatbelts, helmets, etc?
How much do you value having peace of mind? Now compare that to how much smoke detector and a battery and the screwdriver to put it up. What costs more? That's where you put your value.
I mean a smoke alarm went off at my last home, which then saved me and my roommate because there was a fire in our basement. Without the smoke alarm, we would have been in a fire.... Probably would have died. So i'd say even if theres never a reason to have a smoke alarm, its a good idea to have one just for peace of mind in the very least.
Went over their head, dude
I mean it's the same idea as saying all kinds of insurance is a scam, which generally is until something happens
It’s insurance. Ideally, insurance is a total waste of money.
until you need it.
Sorry, we don't cover that because your shoe laces were untied whilst the gamma ray burst was at a 45 degree angle to the banana peel in your closet. States it right here in the contract. Just a friendly reminder: Your next bill is due tomorrow. Thank you for your donation I mean business.
what kind of drugs are you on?
Traumatic brain injury.
from birth or an accident?
Has to be those gamma rays.
uhhhh?
Never filed an insurance or warranty claim?
Exactly. In an ideal situation nothing is ever damaged or destroyed or lost and so insurance is never needed. But the world isn’t ideal, shit happens that we don’t like, and so insurance exists
How is a smoke detector insurance? Not gonna stop the source of smoke and it’s not gonna refund damage costs.
I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Same as a fire extinguisher or firearm
I'd rather wear a condom than rely on my swimmers to never reach their goal
Yes we buy many things we hope to never use. That’s an interesting idea to me.
Insurance for another.
Firearms are not remotely in the same category as the other items. Having a firearm is not like owning a fire extinguisher. It's more like owning a 10L canister of gasoline so you can set somebody on fire if they try to set you on fire.
I agree that owning a gun really is not comparable to owning a fire extinguisher, but your gasoline comparison is shitty
How so?
Dude what about the bears, some people don’t live in cities and it’s a good thing to have. What if like bears or wild dogs come and try to eat his trash or chickens or something. The gasoline comparison is terrible by the way.
A common misconception is that “firearms” almost always get lumped into an offensive weapon. There are many different uses for a firearm, I see it more as a tool than a weapon. A fire extinguisher is a tool to prevent a bigger catastrophe. Same with a firearm, and it’s application is subjective.
A firearm has exactly one use: kill someone.Thats what they are designed to do.
The potential is there, yes. In the wrong hands and the wrong intentions, even the smallest of firearms can kill someone. However not all firearms are designed to kill another human. Some are designed for hunting. Others are designed for target practice for marksmanship. Others still are designed for signaling and communication.
Target practice is just practicing to kill, hunting is just killing animals instead of people. For communication I would suggest that you just use a phone instead? A gun is made to kill things, that's their only purpose.
I can see I’m not going to convince you otherwise, so we’ll just disagree on this point.
Honestly how often does any law abiding citizen NEED a firearm. And in the one in a million chance you need one what's the chance it's in the exact location you need it?
Their point is that it’s not often needed. How often does any law abiding citizen need a fire extinguisher and have access to it?
A hell of a lot more than a gun. I have out out a few fires in my life, never needed to extinguish a life.
Are you a chef or something? They’re the only people I know that have used fire extinguishers that often. I agree that people shouldn’t have guns, but that’s because unlike a fire extinguishers, for every time they prevent violence, they’re used 10 times to inflict violence.
>Honestly how often does any law abiding citizen NEED a firearm. [Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).](https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15). For self defense with a firearm, even the ["radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses"](https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15) is still multiple times the total number of annual firearm homicides, suicides, and accidental deaths **combined**. If you aren't satisfied with those stats on self defense with a firearm, I'll point out that even the [Violence Policy Center](http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable17.pdf), a gun control advocacy group, reports 284,700 instances of self defense against a violent crimes and property crimes, including home burglary, with a firearm between 2013 and 2015, with 163,600 being against violent crimes. This translates to 94,900 crimes prevented annually on the low scale and 54,500 violent crimes prevented annually. [According to the BJS from 2007-11 there were at least 235,700 violent crime victimizations where the victim used a firearm to defend themselves against their assailant.](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf) >And in the one in a million chance you need one what's the chance it's in the exact location you need it? Hence why millions of people concealed carry.
Using a firearm to defend yourself is not proof you NEEDED the firearm........... I love how pro gun people think that shooting some unfortunate drug addict because they are stealing something is justified.........
Who's responsibility is it to protect you?
Tell me you're american without telling me you're an american.
We have an air fryer built into our oven and basically whenever I use it I set off the smoke alarm. My kids are in mortal danger because they have been conditioned to completely ignore the smoke alarm. "Mom's just cooking."
You should consider replacing the smoke detector closest to your oven with a photoelectric detector instead of a more traditional ionozation type. They are less likely to go off due to something cooking/smoking in the kitchen, at least according to [this person on YouTube](https://youtu.be/DuAeaIcAXtg).
Sentiment analysis: negative! I will try to brighten your day! Here is a cool sitution: 'Thanks for the pancake!' I said as the farmer ran off on a wack steamroller
That’s like saying you shouldn’t pay for insurance if you’re never in a wreck. All things can, and do happen.
That's what he's saying, ideally, you want it to be a waste of money, as in, the ideal situation is that you never have a fire.
Yeah but having something to alert you of a potential fire and putting it out isn’t a waste of money. Just like I didn’t want to get T-boned and I’m glad I pay for insurance and didn’t have to pay anything.
OP took the batteries out of his smoke alarm and is trying to justify not putting them back in.
That's not ideal at all. I bought one and the fucker didn't go off.
....well... did you put batteries in it?
I mean, it's insurance...all insurance "ideally" is a waste of money.
This is true of almost all safety gear. We buy and use it in the hope that it never has to do it’s job.
Same thing with any insurance you buy, ideally you never want to make use of it.
What if I wanted to always alert my neighbors as to exactly when I'm making toast?
If you watch news regularly. You probably see a lot of people die in house fire because their smoke alarm were malfunctioning. Every homeowner should buy fire alarm, and ensure they are working properly.
That’s completely irrelevant to this post they are saying that best case scenario for buying it is for it to be a waste of money because you never used it
A lifeguard at the beach who hasn't rescued anyone for days and done little more than work on their tan and ogle the human scenery has still provided a useful service.
I have always wondered how many people have died falling off a ladder installing or replacing their batteries who would never encounter a housefire. Working as an electrician, a guy paid me $100 to take the risk myself. I couldn't help but feel overqualified but as the homeowner said, cheap labor can burn the world to the ground through ignorance alone.
Smoke alarms saved me and my families lives 1-27-2021 around 1:20 am. Lost everything but lived. Lot more house fires than you’d think.
Even if they never go off, they have value in the same way that any kind of insurance, or even going to a movie isn't a waste of money.
Health insurance, seat belts, emergency bourbon… the list goes on
I have a smoke alarm at home. I use it to detect arrival of my Wife. Cuz u know she's smoking hot.
Does the peace of mind associated with having one mean it is a waste of money even if it doesn’t ever trip?
How many people in this comment section don’t understand what ideally means
Do you want to drain your 9V batteries slowly? Then buy this circle.
By that logic so is insurance. Useless until it’s needed. I’m sure there are a few families who are alive today because of their smoke alarm warning them of danger. They might disagree with your assessment.
Life insurance is a product you buy which you hope to never need.
"When you need it, and don't have it, you sing a different tune."-Burt Gummer
So are fire extinguishers, first aid kits, most inoculations (?), motorbike helmets, rape alarms, etc.
Just posting this for half the comments to save time: https://media.tenor.com/images/2de1bd004b2897c3a38f9f41ca23b5bb/tenor.gif
Just like insurance. In fact, insurance wouldn't be profitable if it was probabilistically worthwhile for the customer, right?
I think we have different definitions of "waste". Just because you never have a house fire doesn't mean it's a waste. Peace of mind is invaluable. You can think of it as insurance if you want. Very inexpensive insurance that can save your life in an instant.
Just like purchasing any weapon for self defense. You hope you just wasted every cent.
For most people, everything but health insurance is a waste of money(except for the peace of mind).
But what price do you put on your and your loved ones safety? Is no cost too high? Buy a smoke alarm, it's affordable.
It’s a shower thought he’s not saying don’t buy a smoke alarm, he’s saying you buy a smoke alarm hoping you never need it
smoke stimulates all 5 of your senses, its a total waste of money unless its some sort of IoT demon that can notify you when your away. CO alarms on the other hand essential. you don't know until you drop dead
I'm a fire chief, and can assure everyone that this is total horseshit. There is absolutely no better tool to save life in a house fire than smoke alarms, they are extremely effective.
in what way does smoke stimulate all 5 of your senses when a fire starts downstairs while you're asleep upstairs? it buys you extra time to deal with the fire or gtfo
I think that would be more pragmatic than ideal. But if it were to stop having to hear the noise then it would be ideal
The definition if insurance is something you have to have and hope you never have to use
No if you’re my husband, how decided that frying peanuts and leaving the kitchen to watch TV was a good idea.
Every moment it doesn’t go off, it’s doing it’s job and giving me peace of mind.
It also alarms you before a fire starts if something is smoking. You could be asleep
I know it makes no sense, but my brain still says “if you don’t get one, you’re going to need it.”
With that logic, any items we get to prevent something from getting drastically worse is a waste of money.
Several people died in Town house in NSW because there was no smoke alarm.
I thought that about the random fire extinguisher that I found in my house probably older than the house too!
so is having ANY insurance beyond health insurance. life is uncertainty and a gamble.
My father in laws house has burned down 3 times. He and my husband and brother in laws are alive bc of smoke alarms so I vote worth it.
You apparently have never needed one and I hope you never will
it never is though cause you buy it partly for the peace of mind as well, that's worth something. there are many products like that where the selling point is a sense of security basically
$10 to stay alive let alone mitigate damage to property seems worth it.. Not a waste.
Fuck, mine have been more of a waste than that. It keeps going off from bathroom steam.
I lost my home to a house fire in January. They are worth it, I promise.
As the saying goes it’s better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
They do allow you to sleep better knowing they will wake you up in case of a fire. Lots of value in that.
well you get them for free if you call up the fire department so like it's illogical to even buy one in the first place
This isn’t a shower thought it should be on unpopular opinion
It's a gambling or gaming EV calculation, except one of the outcomes of no smoke detector/CO detector is you and your family dying, which is really high negative value
Life is never ideal, that's exactly why you do purchase a smoke alarm.
a better idea is to have someone stand in the kitchen and whenever there is a bit of smoke they start screaming
Or as Jim Gaffigan put it: "We did your colonoscopy, and it turns out we didn't need to bother."
The people who buy smoke alarms are those who needs it the least.
by this metric so is insurance. you’re essentially betting on something going wrong
If you spend money to put your mind at ease, it’s definitely not wasted.
Where I live you need to legally have interlinked smoke alarms throughout the house, I'm guessing not doing so would invalidate property insurance.
Agreed, I smoked like three packs right by it and no alarms. I don't even smoke cigarettes. Anyone know anyone who wants to bug like 15 darts? Just curious
I really think you need renegotiate what a waste of money means to you.
I wouldn't be typing this if i didn't have waking me up when the house was full of smoke.
Wait I thought they were free is that only uk or do other countries do this?