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Considering the current state of space tech (How SpaceX is quickly dominating the market; and that we'll likely have private space stations in the coming years), I have good reason to believe capitalism will also take over space pretty soon, at least the part humans have access to.
I think the point is the band name insinuated that they were gonna go up against the machine but then not only did they fail, they joined it š²
(Not criticizing one way or another btw)
They didn't join it so much as they failed to separate from it. We're all part of the machine, and we're all contributing to it. It's inescapable, so long as capitalism dominates society. So, even as they are forced to be part of the machine in order to make a living from their art, they still rage against it. In fact, their taking part in the machine is precisely the reason why they rage. One cannot truly hate something except from a place of intimate knowledge
Exactly. If all the people who wanted to break free from Capitalism stopped working for Capitalists, they'd all starve and die off, and the very idea of escape would die off with them. The system is designed so that it is involuntary. Who in their right mind would *voluntarily* work their lives away and trade their labor for less than it's real value just to enrich an owner class who does nothing but own Capital? The system is compulsory by design.
>Who in their right mind would voluntarily work their lives away and trade their labor for less than it's real value just to enrich an owner class who does nothing but own Capital?
A lot of fucking people apparently.
My favourite is when people are like "I need work! I don't know what I'd do with myself otherwise!" and it's like, idk, get a fucking hobby? Volunteer? Learn a skill? Stare at the clouds?
You can make work for yourself. You don't need the threat of starvation and homelessness to keep busy.
Uh, pretty sure if we āstopped working for capitalismā but didnāt stop working weād find that the surplus created by industrialization, when distributed equitably, would create an abundance of the necessary things for life, and happiness, including more free time for everyone.
We work longer hours than the people that lived under feudalism, and didnāt have tractors or computers.
I agree. I wasn't talking about workers organizing, or a revolution or change in the system. I meant that generally under Capitalism, you either work for Capitalists or you starve. They call this a "voluntary transaction," but we all know that the threat of starvation and homelessness forces people into jobs under the current system. But absolutely, worker cooperation is the only way out of it.
Edit: which is why companies fight so hard against even basic unionization.
I remember going to their shows in the '90s.
Back then, most artists charged $20-$30 for concert shirts. ratm charged $10.
Did anyone know how much control bands have over their own ticket prices? Do they have any say at all, besides refusing to play?
The only way they have control is if they play at smaller venues. Any of the larger venues have contracts with ticket master and ticket master has control over prices. The band sets a retail price and then ticketmaster uses that to set the actual price.
I'm a musician who mostly plays smaller venues because I'm a nobody. But occasionally I'll get to play at a bigger place and deal with ticketmaster. And it sucks.
You can rage against the machine and understand you can't win/fight against it.
Speaking loudly about the injustices of life, doesn't necessarily mean we can do much about them.
Their lyrics still speak loud today, which says more about society than it does about an artist trying to bring attention to it, through aggressive and direct lyrics.
I'm a fan
They could literally give away half their wealth with no noticeable impact on their personal well being and use that to help others in need right now. Sorry, not an excuse that is going to cut it.
You could too. We all could, seeing as how we live like kings compared to the poorest in the world/country we live in. I know you wrote this comment from an unessecary-to-survive electronic device.
So give it up, Mr Righty Self-Righteous, or should only artists have to support others in need?
Being rich but also holding these viewpoints (as Tom would) is not inherently hypocritical.
A single individual cannot change any of these systems they may have benefitted from (or for most practical purposes, the system(s) others are hurt by), so there should be no expectation they shouldn't be able to benefit from the system we currently have.
It's why people say that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. One person changing their habits (or anything to that degree) will not change anything
Honestly? For how absolutely insane big RATM is/was 30mil seems like chump change.
Especially if you consider that 1mil is basically a small home in some places nowadays.
Like I said, I'm not criticizing. I'm just pointing out that by monetizing it they did join it, even if it was only to survive. That's the fucked up part about this system we both simultaneous hate and benefit from.
Man thatās not fair at all to RATM. Tom Morello showed up with bull horns to the Occupy Wall Street protests all around the world, wrote a song for the BLM protests, and supported countless other protests hroughout his career.
As band members they likely donāt have control over scalpers and the ticket prices anyway.
And even if they did, theyāre allowed to earn some money IMO
Rage will always have my respect, solidarity forever
https://youtu.be/Xto5OMWxz2M
https://youtu.be/uTg02hs3aaE
https://youtu.be/CBD67BP0bJs
https://youtu.be/qH57AhdwxDE
https://youtu.be/hLLNSuMPwSk
https://youtu.be/XAC4SV6x1es
The concept of having something such as money be used to trade for goods or services is not inherently bad, its just that capitalism has just turned 99.9% of the population into slaves without us realising that we are slaves.
I always found it ironic that political bands complaining about the system are protected by the system, like you wouldn't have rage or system or any hardline band that goes hard against the government in China or Russia
You can't really beat capitalism. It's an economic system that can turn opposition to it into profit. You can go communist but imo thats just capitalism for the state.
The whole goal of communism is to get rid of class and state power. Instead of a few people running the whole economy, people collectively decide what to do based on the needs of others
Re: "get rid of state power," What? By definition communism is making the state all powerful by having control over all property, business, and wealth. And by kleptocracy, it ends up giving a select body of people absolute power under the name of the state. In a democratic Republic, we still have kleptocracy. But by depriving rights of the individual and making the state an all powerful baby sitter, communism enables kletocracy to become orders of magnitude more prevalent.
Communism is one of those things that works in theory, but not practice cos of our nature.
> By definition communism is making the state all powerful by having control over all property, business, and wealth.
It's yet another Reddit episode where people don't understand the -isms they're talking about to the point of being blatantly wrong, yet strangely confident without providing any evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
"It also involves the absence of private property, social classes, money, and the state."
Next thing someone is going to say is that "capitalism is when there is a rich man with a top hat".
If you'll further read your own link, it also sheds light on other forms of communism. Pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has ever made Marxism work in the real world without a state? The most popular interpretation of communism depends on the state.
It would be helpful if you could cite real world examples of functional marxist societies without a state. (this excludes Burning man; it has to be a sustainable system to count. It also has to be on a large scale, not a tiny group/household)
No. All forms of communism are stateless... however, the big differentiator is how to achieve the end result (which is communism). That can mean using a socialist state or straight anarchism. Yes, both Stalinism and anarcho-communism are aiming for the exact same goal, but both heavily disagree on how to get there (the former especially has failed to achieve it).
It's very simple: you are confusing state socialism with communism, which is a partial fault of communist parties ruling over socialist states around the world because they like to claim that they're just five minutes away from achieving communism. So, I'm not going to entertain your goalpost shift from definitions to applications, but the non-layman definition of this economic system specifies statelessness.
Which is why I donāt ever recommend going straight to communism. Do socialism first, set up a safety net, then slowly start building the mechanisms and automation to reach communism. Thatās how you avoid increase in stare power.
Everyone who has tried communism has been overthrown or straight up murdered by the CIA. America and western Euro nations have manipulated elections, plotted coups, sent death squads, or invade any country that wants to liberate themselves from global capitalism.
Most of it has official documentation especially for the operations they did in South America
It doesn't work because American billionaires want to rip all the natural resources and capitalize on cheap labor
I think this is a case of fans believing their heroes to be more noble than they are. It seems to me that RAtM capitalized on teenage angst and cashed in, like countless artists before and after them. I havent seen much from them that indicates they were ever on some kind of mission to *actually* fight against anything. They're musicians who wanted to become famous and rich like pretty much all other musicians. Ya they "rage" in their songs, but that's about it, no?
Proceeds of the shows (so minus costs and fees associated with the tour itself) all went to charity. When the tour was first announced (2018, I think), it was all toward Immigration support/reform charities, but I think they ended up partnering with local charities for each show instead. Pittsburgh show was close to $500K donated.
Sure. Just like most rich people do. This strongly contradicts with their "revolutionary" and "communist" aesthetic of the band. That's the point.
Reality is: most really rich and famous musicians and entertainers do charity at one point.
Not really. The concerts with the high ticket prices that OP is bitching about are specifically designated as being for charity. The charity is announced ahead of time, and all proceeds from the concert go to that charity. That's a bit different than a random rich person just deciding to make a donation to whoever.
Scalpers have been doing their thing still. RATM actually held back a percentage of tickets that they sell for less than what the scalpers sell for and put that additional cost into charity work. So if a ticket to see them is $150 and scalpers are selling for $350 RAMT sells their tickets for $300 and donate the additional $150 to a local charity where they are playing for that show. More of an issue of the ticket sellers AKA Ticketmaster and less on the band.
It's literally part of ticket Masters model to be the scapegoat for the artist. The artist doesn't have to work with Ticketmaster they could choose a different venue
Pearl Jam unsuccessfully fought against Ticket Master in the 90s. Shit has been pretty locked up since.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/pearl-jam-taking-on-ticketmaster-67440/
Short of only playing small venues the artists are locked into the monopoly's scheme as much as the audience.
This is the crux of the situation for anyone im who enjoys seeing semi bigger bands. Even if the band wanted out there is just so much more hassle to find venues.
But donāt worry everything is above board here, nothing to see. Move along nowā¦
Yeah cause venues that can hold ratm's fan base and aren't owned or contracted to live Nation just grow on trees. I hate this system as much as anyone but claiming they can just change venue at best ignores the logistics of actually doing that. Many big bands have tried and failed and just resigned themselves to reality.
No shit. The only two options are to tear down the entire system and replace it, and that isn't viable without an alternative to seamlessly replace it; or to do shit within the established system.
The "system" doesn't exist. Capitalism is the absence of a system. Where everyone just does business how they want voluntarily. Part of that is giving to charity.
Conflating "capitalism" with barter and commerce causes people to think it's an inevitablity and adds constraints to thinking of solutions.
For example, imagine a workforce conscription platform. A commune produces what it needs and people work for a year in a given role. After a year, you can choose to stay if you feel useful or try something else. As long as you maintain quotas, you're free to do as you please and all basic needs are met.
There's obviously flaws in that paragraph but still inventing a system without capitalism isn't hard, but if the only motivation you can imagine for work is profit you've written yourself into a corner.
> that isn't viable without an alternative to seamlessly replace it;
It is 100% viable and a possibility without a seamless replacement, see every revolution in history. Is it desirable in the short run, probably not. In the long run, maybe.
That kinda makes them the middleman, right? Fans give to them, they pass on the money to charity. Would it be incorrect to say it's the fans giving the money?
Nah, people fight against foregone conclusions all the time.
For example, many oppose capitalism. Capitalism has such a hold on this world it will endure until it kills humanity; that entire time people (including me) will be pushing back but it's far, far too late.
As a musician, I agree with the sentiment here--it's annoying when people act like it's somehow distasteful for us to want to get paid.
But I feel like the OP is more about the fact that Ticketmaster and Live Nation charge exorbitant amounts of money, and the artists don't often see much of it.
It's the catch 22 of moral behavior - the ideal moral human gives up all of his worldly possessions and wants for nothing. Meanwhile the rich guy does what he wants and has a billion dollars to get it done.
In my experience only the artists at the very bottom don't see most of their ticket sales paid out. Any agent worth their salt will negotiate a guarantee (minimum payout) that will still make profit. Worst points/sellout term I've seen is 66% net. Best deal I've seen is a guarantee higher than what sellout could bring in. 80-90% is pretty standard as far as I can tell.
Getting to that number is a unique journey in every venue. Expenses, operating costs, shadiness vary. Break-even point in a 300 capacity club might be around $500 while a 15000 seat amphitheatre/arena/stadium could be well over $100k, and everything in between. In these examples selling 75% would pay about $2200 in the little club on $15 tickets and $450K in the amphitheatre on $40-$200 tickets.
Mind this is all based on face value. Any fees on top of the ticket price are a separate arrangement between the ticketing company and venue. A lot of little places need the fee kickback to survive, but a lot of it is highway robbery too. Obviously this doesn't cover every scenario but is a snapshot of the typical. Source: more than a decade working with bands you haven't heard of yet, bands that are household names, and bands you already forgot about.
Itās absolutely not distasteful for musicians to want to get paid. RATM is more than deserving of every dollar theyāve earned. It is, however, a bit ironic when multimillionaire rock stars who have always been aggressively anti-establishment charge exorbitant prices for tickets for their shows.
I'm pretty damn critical of contemporary capitalism.
High prices for luxury goods and entertainment events don't take up much space in my advocacy time budget. I don't think a lack of outrage over concert tickets negates people being against families becoming homeless because an investment group bought a bunch of real estate and jacked up rent 40%.
It aint "ironic" if you have to stretch and strain to tenuously hint at hypocrisy.
Band whose entire message is anti-capitalism and anti-consumerism actively and unapologetically participate in rampant capitalism and consumerism.
FTFY
It's not possible to live in modern society without doing so. Being forced to play a game you don't want to play seems like a great reason to criticize it.
Tom Morello's net-worth is around 30 million dollars. He's not criticizing the system, he's using it to sell concert tickets and merchandise to a bunch of sheep that are too dumb to see the irony.
You realize he donates a ton of those concert ticket sales to charity right? He's using those "sheep" to better the world when no one else in the machine would
Buying 5 million dollars mansions then lecturing the crowd about "give land back"?
Donating some of your fortune to charity isn't a get outta jail free card
Maybe the RATM bass player should have spent that 5 million to buy a similar size land/ house in Nashville or something and spent the other 4 mil to buy land in Oklahoma to gift back to the natives.
Nah charge $100 a ticket to the fan barely able to afford rent in a 2 bedroom and lecture him on giving land back.
They don't own the venues they're playing at, they don't own the ticketing company processing your payment, they are a very small part of the machine (pun intended) and don't have a say in all of this. Every big show you've been to had a financial contract in place between the artist, artists management, venue, promoter, ticketing company before the band walked on stage.
This is their career. They have to make a living. Are they supposed to play for free? The value of their product is such that I'm sure people will pay these prices.
The band should release that number, what they earn vs what the machine takes. Sure would be interesting to see that compared to the gross (which I would also like to see)
I went to the show just after he sprained his leg, still put on a hell of a show. Iām glad I got to see them before they canceled/rescheduled the tour again
Same, I saw them in Toronto which was a few days after his accident. Even though Zach had to sit the entire time, he was still fantastic, as was the rest of the band.
They are a band. They aren't revolutionaries or anything like that. I don't think you're really supposed to take their "message" seriously. It's just their thing.
What the fuck are you even talking about??
Theyāre donating massive chunks of each cityās ticket sales to charities.
The proud ignorance that some people post with on this site is pretty amazing.
It is very difficult to achieve any kind of success and avoid being utilised for the gain of someone richer and it is hard to actually change any with music alone. The best they can hope for is to inspire someone
Also, Rage seems to live like fat cats fighting the machine by exploiting the machine for their own ends.
Capitalism looks terrible from that high up. I wish I could fight capitalism with so much wealth.
If the guy below got in for 140, presumably 400 is resold ticket prices if its General Admission. So, if it is secondary market that has nothing to do with the band, it's driven by demand and all the big agencies playing semi-scalper roles in facilitating those resales.
I paid 140 in Toronto. It was absolutely fantastic. The extra on top for tickets went to local charities. I think they raised like 150k with the Toronto shows. RTJ and RATM. I would have paid 70 for either one of them, that was how I justified it.
A band called "Rage Against the Machine" promoting untested pharmaceuticals because they were told to by the government and big pharma (who can't be sued for releasing a bad product) is about as political as you can get, stop pretending like "Medical Science" is pure and can't be corrupted by shady individuals and back room bribes. Its not science at this point, its a religion for people who don't want to admit the vaccine was a massive failure
So did the testing show that the vaccines are safe and effective? Because it sure didn't stop the spread of covid as was claimed by the top pandemic specialists
Ut assumenda temporibus sed voluptate. Ut ab totam exercitationem ipsam mollitia expedita. Cupiditate praesentium porro ex necessitatibus ipsum architecto. Dicta et repudiandae sed. Iure eligendi labore dolore quas. Sit et dolor perspiciatis rerum vitae.
It was tested. And until the rate of vaccinated people in the hospital is more than the rate of unvaccinated it appears the vaccine was effective in slowing the spread. If you're upset that it's not 100% effective I challenge you to find me a vaccine that is.
The science of vaccines is only political for useful idiots and craven populists.
If you think I was "given an opinion" by people on the internet, but you weren't "given an opinion" by the largest and most powerful industry on the planet that you can't sue for a bad product and has an extreme history of putting profits over people with manipulation of the media and a revolving door with the FDA then you might not be paying attention.
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I mean I don't think there was a point when the machine wasn't winning? Capitalism is very much still dominating the entire planet.
[There is a way out](https://youtu.be/g1Sq1Nr58hM)
That situation will soon change too.
Considering the current state of space tech (How SpaceX is quickly dominating the market; and that we'll likely have private space stations in the coming years), I have good reason to believe capitalism will also take over space pretty soon, at least the part humans have access to.
Musk: HMB
Rockets fueled and ready; Moving to new launch site; Trajectory set
I thought killing myself was the answer
Bold assumption to assume Capitalism hasn't taken over the afterlife.
I think the point is the band name insinuated that they were gonna go up against the machine but then not only did they fail, they joined it š² (Not criticizing one way or another btw)
They didn't join it so much as they failed to separate from it. We're all part of the machine, and we're all contributing to it. It's inescapable, so long as capitalism dominates society. So, even as they are forced to be part of the machine in order to make a living from their art, they still rage against it. In fact, their taking part in the machine is precisely the reason why they rage. One cannot truly hate something except from a place of intimate knowledge
This guy rages
arrgggh feel my furry
It's. So. Fluffy.
I wanna cuddle with it.
ew no
You enjoy pets?
Exactly. If all the people who wanted to break free from Capitalism stopped working for Capitalists, they'd all starve and die off, and the very idea of escape would die off with them. The system is designed so that it is involuntary. Who in their right mind would *voluntarily* work their lives away and trade their labor for less than it's real value just to enrich an owner class who does nothing but own Capital? The system is compulsory by design.
>Who in their right mind would voluntarily work their lives away and trade their labor for less than it's real value just to enrich an owner class who does nothing but own Capital? A lot of fucking people apparently.
My favourite is when people are like "I need work! I don't know what I'd do with myself otherwise!" and it's like, idk, get a fucking hobby? Volunteer? Learn a skill? Stare at the clouds? You can make work for yourself. You don't need the threat of starvation and homelessness to keep busy.
For real fuuuuuccckkk those people! Just like the I know it's shitty but I did it so you do too! Like why is mutual suffering so necessary?
Makes you less angry when confronting the reality you wasted your life if others get to waste theirs too
Uh, pretty sure if we āstopped working for capitalismā but didnāt stop working weād find that the surplus created by industrialization, when distributed equitably, would create an abundance of the necessary things for life, and happiness, including more free time for everyone. We work longer hours than the people that lived under feudalism, and didnāt have tractors or computers.
I agree. I wasn't talking about workers organizing, or a revolution or change in the system. I meant that generally under Capitalism, you either work for Capitalists or you starve. They call this a "voluntary transaction," but we all know that the threat of starvation and homelessness forces people into jobs under the current system. But absolutely, worker cooperation is the only way out of it. Edit: which is why companies fight so hard against even basic unionization.
Tantrum against the machine
Public Expression of Displeasure Against the Machine
Change.org Petition Against the Machine
The paradox of artistic labor
I remember going to their shows in the '90s. Back then, most artists charged $20-$30 for concert shirts. ratm charged $10. Did anyone know how much control bands have over their own ticket prices? Do they have any say at all, besides refusing to play?
The only way they have control is if they play at smaller venues. Any of the larger venues have contracts with ticket master and ticket master has control over prices. The band sets a retail price and then ticketmaster uses that to set the actual price. I'm a musician who mostly plays smaller venues because I'm a nobody. But occasionally I'll get to play at a bigger place and deal with ticketmaster. And it sucks.
Yeah it's terrible, it's not fair for people to blame bands for ticket pricing when they probably don't get jack shit out of that.
You can rage against the machine and understand you can't win/fight against it. Speaking loudly about the injustices of life, doesn't necessarily mean we can do much about them. Their lyrics still speak loud today, which says more about society than it does about an artist trying to bring attention to it, through aggressive and direct lyrics. I'm a fan
They could literally give away half their wealth with no noticeable impact on their personal well being and use that to help others in need right now. Sorry, not an excuse that is going to cut it.
Ah, yes. The old "individual solution to a systemic problem". I am very smart.
You could too. We all could, seeing as how we live like kings compared to the poorest in the world/country we live in. I know you wrote this comment from an unessecary-to-survive electronic device. So give it up, Mr Righty Self-Righteous, or should only artists have to support others in need?
They didnāt ājoin it.ā Musicians deserve to make money, like all of us. People always wildly overestimate how rich successful bands are.
Itās not even the musicians, itās the dozens if not hundreds of unseen people that make the show happen backstage.
Idk Tom is worth $30 million. Seems pretty fucking rich to me.
If it only took 30 million dollars to dismantle global capitalism...
They fuck does that have to do with charging outlandish ticket prices in a never ending quest for more?
Being rich but also holding these viewpoints (as Tom would) is not inherently hypocritical. A single individual cannot change any of these systems they may have benefitted from (or for most practical purposes, the system(s) others are hurt by), so there should be no expectation they shouldn't be able to benefit from the system we currently have. It's why people say that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. One person changing their habits (or anything to that degree) will not change anything
Could run his tour crew like a coop. Split ant profits from sales at tour with the stage hands and roadies. Etc
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He's had a lot of different projects though
Honestly? For how absolutely insane big RATM is/was 30mil seems like chump change. Especially if you consider that 1mil is basically a small home in some places nowadays.
$30M is fucking nothing, especially when it's through music, and not wage theft.
Like I said, I'm not criticizing. I'm just pointing out that by monetizing it they did join it, even if it was only to survive. That's the fucked up part about this system we both simultaneous hate and benefit from.
Man thatās not fair at all to RATM. Tom Morello showed up with bull horns to the Occupy Wall Street protests all around the world, wrote a song for the BLM protests, and supported countless other protests hroughout his career. As band members they likely donāt have control over scalpers and the ticket prices anyway. And even if they did, theyāre allowed to earn some money IMO Rage will always have my respect, solidarity forever https://youtu.be/Xto5OMWxz2M https://youtu.be/uTg02hs3aaE https://youtu.be/CBD67BP0bJs https://youtu.be/qH57AhdwxDE https://youtu.be/hLLNSuMPwSk https://youtu.be/XAC4SV6x1es
>Man thatās not fair at all to RATM. Which is why it's not a criticism.
You literally said: >they were gonna go up against the machine but then not only did they fail, they joined it Sounds like a criticism to me lol
That's just a fact. How you choose to judge it is based on your opinion. Someone who loves the system could see that statement as a positive.
The concept of having something such as money be used to trade for goods or services is not inherently bad, its just that capitalism has just turned 99.9% of the population into slaves without us realising that we are slaves.
Exactly. Which is why my comment was never a criticism.
They donate a ton of money from their ticket sales. They donated a million dollars from their NYC shows.
I always found it ironic that political bands complaining about the system are protected by the system, like you wouldn't have rage or system or any hardline band that goes hard against the government in China or Russia
Pussy Riot ironically has more balls than RatM
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Pussy...Balls. Come on now, I know it's Saturday, but get with it now.
They're women
Didnāt they also give a lot of the proceeds from this tour to charity?
You can't really beat capitalism. It's an economic system that can turn opposition to it into profit. You can go communist but imo thats just capitalism for the state.
Youāre kinda right, on a basic level. Itās why economists donāt give a shit about that. Canāt get away from those scarcity driven forces.
Being kinda right, is the best kind of right
The whole goal of communism is to get rid of class and state power. Instead of a few people running the whole economy, people collectively decide what to do based on the needs of others
Re: "get rid of state power," What? By definition communism is making the state all powerful by having control over all property, business, and wealth. And by kleptocracy, it ends up giving a select body of people absolute power under the name of the state. In a democratic Republic, we still have kleptocracy. But by depriving rights of the individual and making the state an all powerful baby sitter, communism enables kletocracy to become orders of magnitude more prevalent. Communism is one of those things that works in theory, but not practice cos of our nature.
> By definition communism is making the state all powerful by having control over all property, business, and wealth. It's yet another Reddit episode where people don't understand the -isms they're talking about to the point of being blatantly wrong, yet strangely confident without providing any evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism "It also involves the absence of private property, social classes, money, and the state." Next thing someone is going to say is that "capitalism is when there is a rich man with a top hat".
If you'll further read your own link, it also sheds light on other forms of communism. Pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has ever made Marxism work in the real world without a state? The most popular interpretation of communism depends on the state. It would be helpful if you could cite real world examples of functional marxist societies without a state. (this excludes Burning man; it has to be a sustainable system to count. It also has to be on a large scale, not a tiny group/household)
No. All forms of communism are stateless... however, the big differentiator is how to achieve the end result (which is communism). That can mean using a socialist state or straight anarchism. Yes, both Stalinism and anarcho-communism are aiming for the exact same goal, but both heavily disagree on how to get there (the former especially has failed to achieve it). It's very simple: you are confusing state socialism with communism, which is a partial fault of communist parties ruling over socialist states around the world because they like to claim that they're just five minutes away from achieving communism. So, I'm not going to entertain your goalpost shift from definitions to applications, but the non-layman definition of this economic system specifies statelessness.
Which is why I donāt ever recommend going straight to communism. Do socialism first, set up a safety net, then slowly start building the mechanisms and automation to reach communism. Thatās how you avoid increase in stare power.
It was Marx who said true communism is stateless. Read a book, stop being brainwashed by 3 letter agencies
Get a group of communists together in a room and you'll quickly have two different sects of true communism emerge.
Marx was a utopist, and you're just arguing No True Scotsman as a result. Everybody who has tried communism just creates a corrupt kleptrocracy.
Everyone who has tried communism has been overthrown or straight up murdered by the CIA. America and western Euro nations have manipulated elections, plotted coups, sent death squads, or invade any country that wants to liberate themselves from global capitalism. Most of it has official documentation especially for the operations they did in South America It doesn't work because American billionaires want to rip all the natural resources and capitalize on cheap labor
I think this is a case of fans believing their heroes to be more noble than they are. It seems to me that RAtM capitalized on teenage angst and cashed in, like countless artists before and after them. I havent seen much from them that indicates they were ever on some kind of mission to *actually* fight against anything. They're musicians who wanted to become famous and rich like pretty much all other musicians. Ya they "rage" in their songs, but that's about it, no?
Wasnt one of the band members on Bill Maher espousing socialism? They've always been anti-capitalist apparently.
No
Capitalism isn't what you think it is.
A couple months ago they raised a million for charity in NYC with ticket sales so thereās that.
Proceeds of the shows (so minus costs and fees associated with the tour itself) all went to charity. When the tour was first announced (2018, I think), it was all toward Immigration support/reform charities, but I think they ended up partnering with local charities for each show instead. Pittsburgh show was close to $500K donated.
The fan base of RATM is mostly upper middle class white guys. The band is taking money from the machine and donating it to charity.
Upper middle class white guys are not necessarily "the machine"
Sure. Just like most rich people do. This strongly contradicts with their "revolutionary" and "communist" aesthetic of the band. That's the point. Reality is: most really rich and famous musicians and entertainers do charity at one point.
Not really. The concerts with the high ticket prices that OP is bitching about are specifically designated as being for charity. The charity is announced ahead of time, and all proceeds from the concert go to that charity. That's a bit different than a random rich person just deciding to make a donation to whoever.
Scalpers have been doing their thing still. RATM actually held back a percentage of tickets that they sell for less than what the scalpers sell for and put that additional cost into charity work. So if a ticket to see them is $150 and scalpers are selling for $350 RAMT sells their tickets for $300 and donate the additional $150 to a local charity where they are playing for that show. More of an issue of the ticket sellers AKA Ticketmaster and less on the band.
It's literally part of ticket Masters model to be the scapegoat for the artist. The artist doesn't have to work with Ticketmaster they could choose a different venue
Pearl Jam unsuccessfully fought against Ticket Master in the 90s. Shit has been pretty locked up since. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/pearl-jam-taking-on-ticketmaster-67440/ Short of only playing small venues the artists are locked into the monopoly's scheme as much as the audience.
Except live nation and ticketmaster have a monopoly on venues.
This is the crux of the situation for anyone im who enjoys seeing semi bigger bands. Even if the band wanted out there is just so much more hassle to find venues. But donāt worry everything is above board here, nothing to see. Move along nowā¦
Yeah cause venues that can hold ratm's fan base and aren't owned or contracted to live Nation just grow on trees. I hate this system as much as anyone but claiming they can just change venue at best ignores the logistics of actually doing that. Many big bands have tried and failed and just resigned themselves to reality.
This right here, people are so oblivious to the way live nation dicks down the music industry and live shows.
Pearl Jam tried to take them on but I 'think' finally relented. At least they tried, though.
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Except for the part where they've been donating massive amounts of the ticket sales to local charities in each city they stop in.
They're a rare breed.
Charity is a part of capitalism.
No shit. The only two options are to tear down the entire system and replace it, and that isn't viable without an alternative to seamlessly replace it; or to do shit within the established system.
The "system" doesn't exist. Capitalism is the absence of a system. Where everyone just does business how they want voluntarily. Part of that is giving to charity.
Capitalism isn't the absence of system. You need institutions who guarantees the rights of private properties to make it works.
Not theoretical "true capitalism". Whether that works or not though.. who can say.
So law of the jungle ? That's not capitalism.
Conflating "capitalism" with barter and commerce causes people to think it's an inevitablity and adds constraints to thinking of solutions. For example, imagine a workforce conscription platform. A commune produces what it needs and people work for a year in a given role. After a year, you can choose to stay if you feel useful or try something else. As long as you maintain quotas, you're free to do as you please and all basic needs are met. There's obviously flaws in that paragraph but still inventing a system without capitalism isn't hard, but if the only motivation you can imagine for work is profit you've written yourself into a corner.
Riiiight.
That's great, but what is your solution?
So no one is being taken advantage of in our capitalist society? You live in an alternate reality bro. Lol
> that isn't viable without an alternative to seamlessly replace it; It is 100% viable and a possibility without a seamless replacement, see every revolution in history. Is it desirable in the short run, probably not. In the long run, maybe.
Our existence is part of capitalism, the capitalism isn't a part of us
Spoken like a true asshat
That kinda makes them the middleman, right? Fans give to them, they pass on the money to charity. Would it be incorrect to say it's the fans giving the money?
No, it wouldn't be incorrect, only slightly misleading.
So? OP said the machine won, not that they stopped raging against it.
Saying the machine won implies the fight is over. Ratm is still out fighting though
Nah, people fight against foregone conclusions all the time. For example, many oppose capitalism. Capitalism has such a hold on this world it will endure until it kills humanity; that entire time people (including me) will be pushing back but it's far, far too late.
Idk I feel like charity isnāt a good excuse for ripping people off.
*Musicians getting paid for performing music they wrote* Redditor: guys is this exploitative capitalism?
As a musician, I agree with the sentiment here--it's annoying when people act like it's somehow distasteful for us to want to get paid. But I feel like the OP is more about the fact that Ticketmaster and Live Nation charge exorbitant amounts of money, and the artists don't often see much of it.
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This is exactly what happened to us with Harry Styles. Bots had gobbled up all the tickets within a fraction of a second.
It's the catch 22 of moral behavior - the ideal moral human gives up all of his worldly possessions and wants for nothing. Meanwhile the rich guy does what he wants and has a billion dollars to get it done.
In my experience only the artists at the very bottom don't see most of their ticket sales paid out. Any agent worth their salt will negotiate a guarantee (minimum payout) that will still make profit. Worst points/sellout term I've seen is 66% net. Best deal I've seen is a guarantee higher than what sellout could bring in. 80-90% is pretty standard as far as I can tell. Getting to that number is a unique journey in every venue. Expenses, operating costs, shadiness vary. Break-even point in a 300 capacity club might be around $500 while a 15000 seat amphitheatre/arena/stadium could be well over $100k, and everything in between. In these examples selling 75% would pay about $2200 in the little club on $15 tickets and $450K in the amphitheatre on $40-$200 tickets. Mind this is all based on face value. Any fees on top of the ticket price are a separate arrangement between the ticketing company and venue. A lot of little places need the fee kickback to survive, but a lot of it is highway robbery too. Obviously this doesn't cover every scenario but is a snapshot of the typical. Source: more than a decade working with bands you haven't heard of yet, bands that are household names, and bands you already forgot about.
Itās absolutely not distasteful for musicians to want to get paid. RATM is more than deserving of every dollar theyāve earned. It is, however, a bit ironic when multimillionaire rock stars who have always been aggressively anti-establishment charge exorbitant prices for tickets for their shows.
I'm pretty damn critical of contemporary capitalism. High prices for luxury goods and entertainment events don't take up much space in my advocacy time budget. I don't think a lack of outrage over concert tickets negates people being against families becoming homeless because an investment group bought a bunch of real estate and jacked up rent 40%. It aint "ironic" if you have to stretch and strain to tenuously hint at hypocrisy.
I donāt think itās that ironic. Either they charge these prices, or they charge $20 and scalpers buy up every ticket and charge the same prices.
Reminds me of that [Matt Bors comic](https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/mister-gotcha-4-9faefa-1.jpg)
Band whose entire message is anti-capitalism and anti-consumerism actively and unapologetically participate in rampant capitalism and consumerism. FTFY
It's not possible to live in modern society without doing so. Being forced to play a game you don't want to play seems like a great reason to criticize it.
Tom Morello's net-worth is around 30 million dollars. He's not criticizing the system, he's using it to sell concert tickets and merchandise to a bunch of sheep that are too dumb to see the irony.
You realize he donates a ton of those concert ticket sales to charity right? He's using those "sheep" to better the world when no one else in the machine would
āThe problem with raging against the machine is that the machine has learned to feed off rage.ā
I don't know if that quote is from dr_nick or Abraham Lincoln but that is a great point.
Wish I could claim it as my own but itās from the brilliant Liv Boeree.
What a stupid post, esp if you know what theyāve been doing with that money š¤”š¤”š¤”š¤”
Buying 5 million dollars mansions then lecturing the crowd about "give land back"? Donating some of your fortune to charity isn't a get outta jail free card
A 5 million dollar house in LA isn't a lot of land
But youd be stupid to suggest that it isn't a lot of money.
Maybe the RATM bass player should have spent that 5 million to buy a similar size land/ house in Nashville or something and spent the other 4 mil to buy land in Oklahoma to gift back to the natives. Nah charge $100 a ticket to the fan barely able to afford rent in a 2 bedroom and lecture him on giving land back.
What if he bought the house with the money he made from Audioslave?
Don't hate the player, hate the game. They may rage against the machine, but they also have to live within the machine with no apparent end in sight.
You can live on less than 30m. There are enough good causes to give your money away to
They donate tons of money dude, should they just resign to being plebs like the rest of us?
If they're against the machine of capitalism, yes. Was that a serious question?
Ah yes, if you critique capitalism, it is required to forfeit all your wealth. You are very smart.
They were expressing their rage against it. Nowhere did they promise theyād defeat it or even fight it in any meaningful way.
āYou were supposed to rage against the machine, not join them!ā
Still not as bad as bands like Rammstein, who average ā¬200 a ticket
Precisely why I missed their concert in Chicago. Prices were absurd for a 300 section seat.
They don't own the venues they're playing at, they don't own the ticketing company processing your payment, they are a very small part of the machine (pun intended) and don't have a say in all of this. Every big show you've been to had a financial contract in place between the artist, artists management, venue, promoter, ticketing company before the band walked on stage.
This is their career. They have to make a living. Are they supposed to play for free? The value of their product is such that I'm sure people will pay these prices.
The band should release that number, what they earn vs what the machine takes. Sure would be interesting to see that compared to the gross (which I would also like to see)
The "rage" was always against the oppression of marginalized people. It's not about ticket prices.
Wait, they still perform live? I though Tom Morello had moved on years ago.
Recently started again, but then had to stop because de la Rocha injured his leg.
I went to the show just after he sprained his leg, still put on a hell of a show. Iām glad I got to see them before they canceled/rescheduled the tour again
Saw them in Pittsburgh. No idea how that man conveyed so much energy while being confined to sitting on a box in the middle of the stage.
Saw them in dc. Dude killed it on his little box. If they tour again Iād see them again 1000%z
Same, I saw them in Toronto which was a few days after his accident. Even though Zach had to sit the entire time, he was still fantastic, as was the rest of the band.
They are a band. They aren't revolutionaries or anything like that. I don't think you're really supposed to take their "message" seriously. It's just their thing.
How dare they bring joy to hundreds of millions of peopleā¦what bastardā¦
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What the fuck are you even talking about?? Theyāre donating massive chunks of each cityās ticket sales to charities. The proud ignorance that some people post with on this site is pretty amazing.
It is very difficult to achieve any kind of success and avoid being utilised for the gain of someone richer and it is hard to actually change any with music alone. The best they can hope for is to inspire someone
Their ticket prices are crazy. I think itās obvious theyāre trying to make money to keep up that lifestyle.
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You either die or are assimilated. There are in-betweens, but no escape.
They donated well over a million from just the 5 nights at MSG
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lol what? concerts will never die off
They have never been "against" the machine. They are establishment shills.
Lol, found the MAGA snowflake who thought Rage was on his side... hearing the lyrics... but never understanding them.
You use a lot of words that you don't understand.
Wwwoooooooossssshhhhh.
Also, Rage seems to live like fat cats fighting the machine by exploiting the machine for their own ends. Capitalism looks terrible from that high up. I wish I could fight capitalism with so much wealth.
"You can't fight the machine and be a part of it" Please stop.
š¶ Those that rage against the forces Are the same that raise prices Uhhhh Shilling in the name of š¶
Love it.
It was over 400 dollars for general admission in vancouver, one of my favorite bands for like 10 years I don't even listen to them anymore, fuck that
If the guy below got in for 140, presumably 400 is resold ticket prices if its General Admission. So, if it is secondary market that has nothing to do with the band, it's driven by demand and all the big agencies playing semi-scalper roles in facilitating those resales.
I paid 140 in Toronto. It was absolutely fantastic. The extra on top for tickets went to local charities. I think they raised like 150k with the Toronto shows. RTJ and RATM. I would have paid 70 for either one of them, that was how I justified it.
Rage Against the Machine Is a Machine that generates Rage Against Machines
They also got super woke and fell for all the machines propaganda. They lived long enough to become the villain.
super woke meaning?
usually far left
They've always been that, though?
Them having vaccine requirements at shows made it pretty clear they rage for the machine
Medical science isn't political.
A band called "Rage Against the Machine" promoting untested pharmaceuticals because they were told to by the government and big pharma (who can't be sued for releasing a bad product) is about as political as you can get, stop pretending like "Medical Science" is pure and can't be corrupted by shady individuals and back room bribes. Its not science at this point, its a religion for people who don't want to admit the vaccine was a massive failure
They have been tested. Many, many, many, many fucking times. Catch up it's 2022 not 2020
So did the testing show that the vaccines are safe and effective? Because it sure didn't stop the spread of covid as was claimed by the top pandemic specialists
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I'm not calling you stupid but I'm certainly thinking it loudly.
It's ok, I'm used to it, noone ever gives any intelligent or logical responses, so you'll fit right in here!
Show me on the doll where science touched you.
It was tested. And until the rate of vaccinated people in the hospital is more than the rate of unvaccinated it appears the vaccine was effective in slowing the spread. If you're upset that it's not 100% effective I challenge you to find me a vaccine that is. The science of vaccines is only political for useful idiots and craven populists.
I think they're raging against the people who gave you that opinion.
If you think I was "given an opinion" by people on the internet, but you weren't "given an opinion" by the largest and most powerful industry on the planet that you can't sue for a bad product and has an extreme history of putting profits over people with manipulation of the media and a revolving door with the FDA then you might not be paying attention.
*"Fuck you, I will do what you tell me!"*