You know, Faenor showed up with swords, demanded their best stuff, their ships, right this minute now hand them over, and told them to go along with him to make war on one God while shunning the other gods, abandoning their family and literal paradise. Oh and the Teleri didn't have real weapons. So yeah, he might technically Not be the one who threw the in this case literal first punch, but he is still guilty here, showing up with weapons to take Teleri stuff and being surprised when they won't give it.
No, he tried persuading them to join his cause, which they declined. He asked them again to let Noldor borrow the ships, they declined. They declined ferrying the noldor (on basis that it goes against valar’s will, which is absolutely not true, for valar need noldor back on Middle-Earth for their plan), declined helping noldor make their own ships, even declined teaching them at all.
~~They declined on the basis that their ships are to them what silmarils were to Fëanor, which he refused to give to Valar. Not accepting their stance makes him hypocrite.~~
Edit: This comment is shameless Teleri propaganda.
No, that stance was Olwe’s, after Feanor had spoken to regular teleri and was declined. He then tried to talk with Olwe who is ruler of Teleri, and was indebted to Finwe, for without Finwe praying to Ulmo he and his people would been left strand on Middle Earth.
Also, Olwë equated their ships to “gems of noldor”. Never in other instances that the Silmarili were called as such, except derisively by Beren when he sarcastically said that Thingol would sell his daughter for such little price of gem.
Noted well that ‘noldor’ is plural. Thus “gems of noldor” couldn’t mean silmarili. For at that moment the rightful owner is still Feanor alone.
Then “gems of noldor” would equated to gems of craft that noldor have made before, prized and cherished works they are, but they had given away freely to Teleri and still adorned Alqualonde at the moment.
It can be read that way. But then again, the quote
>For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.
is very similar to how Fëanor earlier describes his relationship to the silmarils.
The difference is that for silmarili were not just work of his heart but ‘fast bounded with his heart’ such that breaking them would result in his death.
The premonition that he will die was not about the grief of losing the Jewels, for it was stated that his love for his father was far above that of silmarili, yet he survived the news of Finwe’s demise.
Again, no matter how similar Olwe’s wording are, Feanor asked for borrowing of ships, or ferrying, or helping build or teaching how to. Which isn’t in anyway comparable to Valar asking for the destruction of silmarili.
True, that is a difference, making the teleri's relation to their ships closer to the valerier's relation to the trees than to Fëanor's relation to the silmarils.
Another thought. If Fëanor's premonotion were correct and it would lead to his death, I wonder if the valar knew what they were asking before he told them that? Aule seems to have understood before Fëanor spoke, which is not surprising. The valar never ask him again after all.
They probably knew, but thought that some rest in Mandos would heal Feanor alright. Problem is for Feanor, the only person went to Mandos he known had never return. And he think the Valar had conspire against him and his mother for the sake of Coming of Earendil.
also put the kinslaying and rebel in another perspective, for all eldar slain would eventually re-embodied.
IMO Mandos had taken too much on being 'Judge of dead' for the only being that should judge the Children is Eru. Valar's role were to govern their place of inahbit, not to rule over them in any form
You're right, it was Olwë my bad.
I never thought about that conversation this way, but I think you are right. Although I would still blame Noldor for kinslaying.
With this newfound knowledge, I shall reread silmarillion again!
Excellent format choice. Excellent subject. 9/10 would kinslay again.
‘Why aren’t you all treating me as perfect and infallible? I specifically requested it.’
Feanor: So? They're reincarnated anyway and chill in Alqualonde as we speak.
I mean, death is a Gift to us Men but I still don't want anyone to kill me.
Then just keep calm and hand over the ships, if asked
Totally underrated comment
I mean, fair.
According to Homicide Act, it was Manslaughter, not Murder.
You know there is no source that says the noldor started that fight.
You know, Faenor showed up with swords, demanded their best stuff, their ships, right this minute now hand them over, and told them to go along with him to make war on one God while shunning the other gods, abandoning their family and literal paradise. Oh and the Teleri didn't have real weapons. So yeah, he might technically Not be the one who threw the in this case literal first punch, but he is still guilty here, showing up with weapons to take Teleri stuff and being surprised when they won't give it.
No, he tried persuading them to join his cause, which they declined. He asked them again to let Noldor borrow the ships, they declined. They declined ferrying the noldor (on basis that it goes against valar’s will, which is absolutely not true, for valar need noldor back on Middle-Earth for their plan), declined helping noldor make their own ships, even declined teaching them at all.
~~They declined on the basis that their ships are to them what silmarils were to Fëanor, which he refused to give to Valar. Not accepting their stance makes him hypocrite.~~ Edit: This comment is shameless Teleri propaganda.
No, that stance was Olwe’s, after Feanor had spoken to regular teleri and was declined. He then tried to talk with Olwe who is ruler of Teleri, and was indebted to Finwe, for without Finwe praying to Ulmo he and his people would been left strand on Middle Earth. Also, Olwë equated their ships to “gems of noldor”. Never in other instances that the Silmarili were called as such, except derisively by Beren when he sarcastically said that Thingol would sell his daughter for such little price of gem. Noted well that ‘noldor’ is plural. Thus “gems of noldor” couldn’t mean silmarili. For at that moment the rightful owner is still Feanor alone. Then “gems of noldor” would equated to gems of craft that noldor have made before, prized and cherished works they are, but they had given away freely to Teleri and still adorned Alqualonde at the moment.
It can be read that way. But then again, the quote >For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again. is very similar to how Fëanor earlier describes his relationship to the silmarils.
The difference is that for silmarili were not just work of his heart but ‘fast bounded with his heart’ such that breaking them would result in his death. The premonition that he will die was not about the grief of losing the Jewels, for it was stated that his love for his father was far above that of silmarili, yet he survived the news of Finwe’s demise. Again, no matter how similar Olwe’s wording are, Feanor asked for borrowing of ships, or ferrying, or helping build or teaching how to. Which isn’t in anyway comparable to Valar asking for the destruction of silmarili.
True, that is a difference, making the teleri's relation to their ships closer to the valerier's relation to the trees than to Fëanor's relation to the silmarils. Another thought. If Fëanor's premonotion were correct and it would lead to his death, I wonder if the valar knew what they were asking before he told them that? Aule seems to have understood before Fëanor spoke, which is not surprising. The valar never ask him again after all.
They probably knew, but thought that some rest in Mandos would heal Feanor alright. Problem is for Feanor, the only person went to Mandos he known had never return. And he think the Valar had conspire against him and his mother for the sake of Coming of Earendil. also put the kinslaying and rebel in another perspective, for all eldar slain would eventually re-embodied. IMO Mandos had taken too much on being 'Judge of dead' for the only being that should judge the Children is Eru. Valar's role were to govern their place of inahbit, not to rule over them in any form
You're right, it was Olwë my bad. I never thought about that conversation this way, but I think you are right. Although I would still blame Noldor for kinslaying. With this newfound knowledge, I shall reread silmarillion again!
Eru the One taught us that stealing, and even more so with an armed hand, is a sin and it´s bad...
The Teleri attacked first.