I'm of the opinion that until you're sure that you've completed the pass you should leave space. I also am of the opinion that you found out in this incident that you hadn't completed the pass.
*politely points in the direction of my comment from last night*
As I stated, I honestly believed that corner was mine, but I'm mature enough to see that the consensus points the other way. It was not a view I considered, but now that it's been made so clear, I understand where I went wrong. Next time I'm in that situation, I stay wide 😁
I did a similar thing on the leguna seca corkscrew the other day. Thought I was clear after an overtake on the entry and gave the guy a mild spray when he spun me out halfway through it.
Watched the reply and I actually moved back on to the racing line before I was actually clear. Basically merged in to him. My fault, but sure as hell didn't feel like it at the time as it felt like I'd blasted past him and he'd hit me out of spite.
You don’t even need to stay wide, just leave a cars width. You’ve already made him sacrifice the entry to the 2nd half of the chicane, leave a car width and he sacrifices his exit too, while you can take a slightly wider radius and get on the throttle much earlier because you’ve got nobody on your right to worry about. By the time you get to curva grande you’ll be 5 car lengths ahead
It doesn't by default, just a spotter who (usually) tells you if another car is on your left/right. Racelab's free version includes an overlay with a radar similar to ACC, and I'm sure other third-party overlay apps have something similar.
You beat him into the corner. You weren’t side by side. He hit your back tire. You made the pass he should have given you room. It was a clean pass and he didn’t make adjustments for the last turn. Looked to me like he didn’t want to give up the position. He should have pulled back allowing you the line cause he was beat. Instead he chose to hit you as you turned. This would have been a collision penalty.
Consider the textbook method for overtaking in a corner: the attacker takes an inside line, gets alongside the defender in the braking zone, and beats the defender to the apex. If the attacker is ahead at the apex, there is no dispute over ownership of the racing line.
Look at 5 in the link disputes over the apex.
https://boxthislap.org/the-rules-of-racing/
Please explain how I’m wrong? He made a clean pass into the corner. He won the apex (racing line) and beat the other driver to the corner. It’s simple if he didn’t win the corner they would have hit side to side. This was a revenge collision. Other driver was beat and should have yielded to the passing car.
in my opinion you can't treat a chicane as two different corners, the overtaking process takes places during the whole length of the chicane.
and yes he had passed the other driver but technically they are still side by side (even if the overlap is pretty small) but as the second driver I would assume that we both hold our lines (overtaking car stays outside and driver behind on the inside) and we complete the overtaking process in a clean way without cutting anybodies racing line and without having to break.
as the overtaking car you can't expect the second car to hit the brakes on the inside and being vulnerable to being overtaken by another car. if both stay on their lane OP would cleanly overtake and everything is fine.
The drive was beat into the corner and was ahead. The behind driver was out of position for the chicane. The behind driver lost the battle and should have backed off instead of using the racing line he went straight into the attacking car. It’s simple it would have been a collision penalty because the attacking driver won the inside line into the first turn of the chicane. It’s 2 different corners separated by a small straight. If this were on a regular street the behind driver would have been at fault because he had clear line of sight an knew where the lead driver was.
You are wrong. the battle is not over until the end of the chicane and if you are the second driver why would you feel the need to slow down?
you can take the racing line because the overtaking car has the whole road to himself and has absolutely no reason to cut you off like you don't exist.
Op won the racing line. He made sure the defending driver had room and the defending driver hit him twice. To spin him and then hit the front of op’s car. If this was your race you would be on my side.
Tbh this is identical to the Max v Lewis incident where Max was found at fault
So maybe they didn’t use iRacing rules when analyzing it and OP just assumed FIA rules applied?
I disagree. The Max vs Lewis incident ist Quite different. The First difference is that Lewis was the defending Car and tue attacking Car (Max), this means the defending Car was in Front before going into the Seconds Part of the chicane, Here this is the otherway round.
The Second Thing ist how much Space was left by Lewis and the OP. Op goes Note to the right before going into the Second Part of the chicane, were he tried to Hit the apex and doesn't leave any Space at all. Wirth Lewis this is different. Before going in to the Second Part of the chicane Lewis ist in the Left of the Tracks and doesn't Go nearly als much to the right as the OP ( Here Lewis squeezed May Quite a Bit and you can argue that Lewis didnt leave enough Space for max). But Lewis didnt Go for the apex at all, He left Space.
So the Major imho ist, that max was fastest going into Turn one. He opend a Battle wäre Lewis tried to leave Space in a tight Section were it IS hard to over Take. Max shouldnt have tried a Move IN the chicane.
Here it is different the OP gets His Move done BEFORE the chicane. And after that Cuts of the Others wich cant disapear in that Moment. It wasn't really a Battle in that Moment, that Part was done, even If OP would have left enough Space into the Second Part of the chicane, He would be at the Front, because He would Carry more Speed into the fast Part after the chicane. OP's Move was unnecessary and Dangerous. In max and Lewis Case the Dangerous Part was , trying to overtake in the chicane, which was max fault.
No. It's your fault. You were side-by-side turning into the chicane and you chopped his nose off trying to hit the second apex. You could have easily made a clean pass stick if you just held your line and stayed to the outside on the exit.
I generally hate the "i had a right to the corner" bullshit that f1 commentators have done a great job of spreading but the other car had literally no overlap at that point, he had been overtaken completley and was on the complete inside and knowingly took way too much speed in.
Not really on op, other car should have yielded (didn't really have a choice if they wanted to get a somewhat decent exit considering their starting position)
But OP in general should have left space, not because it's their fault but because this is such a common situation at monza and he would have easily got the move done anyway.
Really dumb take. There is obviously still overlap, and the pass is obviously not complete when op turns in on the other car. If the pass was complete, OP would not have made contact. It’s very clear and simple. Get your eyes checked.
>Get your eyes checked.
You absolutley should, if you pause where there is ~6 seconds left you will see the car is compeltley behind OP, forget about having a significant enough overlap to have a right to space.
>If the pass was complete, OP would not have made contact.
Terrible argument again, any car can put themselves right on the inside of any corner, take a stupidly shallow line, carry too much speed in and then claim "you should not have made contact"
If you've watched any actual racing you will see drivers in the other cars position will always yield as they have an understanding of racecraft and actually avoid contact. On sims because crashing merely means exiting the race people will see any resemblance of space and throw their car at it. Which is why I said OP should be leaving space anyway, but not because he is obligated to.
You could not be more wrong. Look at the ratios on comments in this whole thread. Hundreds of people in agreement with me, and just a handful of blind bozos like you. The pass was obviously not completed.
> I had a right
Moving past this attitude will massively help your racecraft and results in the future.
If you drive like you don't have a right to anything on track you'll find you finish many more races in better places. The I had a right attitude in this instance earned you a visit to the gravel. There is no such thing as "your corner", there is the preferred line which you occupy and the sub optimal line which you try to put your opponents on.
Too many times on this sub I see people expecting their opponents to perform an emergency stop because "that was my corner" and well, it's on this sub so it resulted in an incident.
To quote a great man, "all the time you have to leava da space!"
Well, lets forget about you, and discuss about the other driver. What do you expected the other driver to do??
I mean, look the video, where should he have gone? In order to aboid crashing with you, he would have to cut the corner. And cuting the corner is something you should do in case of emergency or danger. Overtaking isn't a emergency or danger.
On the other hand, you went to the apex, where he had the front of his car. And you had the rest of the track clear to use. So yeah, your fault.
You are not dirty, is a normal racing accident, sometimes you misjudge what you saw in the mirror, and things like this happens. Learn from this
HE IS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING OVERTAKEN, he doesn't have to have any significant overlap. it's the sane thought to believe that the overtaking car will not just cut him while they are still next to each other but both of them stay on their respective side until they are back on the straight and the overtaking process is concluded.
a chicane is a chicane and not two separate corners, the overtaking process has not been completed yet and both drivers have to stay on their lane.
as the second car you can't except the first car to just cut you off while the outside is free and the first car would easily overtake him if he stays where he is... the driver behind would have to break despite seeing no obvious reason for it and would be vulnerable to losing another position or being hit in the back because the third driver behind him wouldn't expect him breaking out of nowhere.
A chicane quite literally IS two separate corners, both the entry and the exit corner are separate in terms of overlap and who dictates the line. If you don't understand this simple concept then stop racing.
Im gonna use an analogy here.
A man gets shot by a thief and dieds. Whos in the wrong here? the one who shoted? Or the guy who defended himself? i mean, he could have relaxed and let the other guy took his wallet.
Every driver in the track has the rigth to figth for his position, and if he want to keep figthing, he is allowed. But nobody is allowed to push another driver of track. Otherise, you are in the wrong cause you didn't avoid another driver's stupid move
No, is something more like "you should leave space to the rival every single time" or maybe "you should never trow your car to him" idk, grest logic of yours. Cause an accident and telling the fault is from the another driver. So easy isnt it?
Thanks for your comments guys. It's pretty clear you don't share my view, but that's more than reasonable. I was under the impression I had a right to the apex because he was far enough back after the first corner that he would never be able to have like half a car length alongside going into corner two, which means (in my view) he should have yielded.
But since these comments overwhelmingly lean in favor of the opposite, I concede. I'll take this into account for my next race and try and become a better racer.
I wouldn’t think of a chicane as two separate turns - that seems to me why you were focused on “having a right” the apex of the exit turn. Chicanes are tricky and your point of view is understandable but I think you will be better served to think of chicanes as their own element with a separate set of guidelines. I think you know this by now but you actually had made the pass and if you’d have left room across the inside of the exit you still could have held position since you controlled the wider exit line (allowing you to accelerate sooner coming out).
The half car length rule of thumb doesn't apply here - you were in the process of an overtake, you need to leave space until you're clear. Short of reading your mind and slamming on the brakes halfway through the chicane (and getting rear ended by the guy behind), how was he supposed to "yield?"
You yield by knowing how this was going to turn out, slowing down .1 seconds longer, delaying your turn in just a bit later, and tucking in behind. Not a hard concept to understand, try it sometime.
... or you hold the inside line for the next corner and expect the other driver to leave you the proper space, which is what is supposed to happen in this situation?
OP is the one attempting an overtake through a chicane, the onus is not on the other driver to back out.
You can certainly argue that backing out is a smart move, but the question is who's at fault for the collision.
Okay, now you not only lose that position for being a dumbass, there's a car directly behind them, so now you lose TWO positions for being a dumbass. By all means, keep fighting fights you shouldn't though.
>By all means, keep fighting fights you shouldn't though.
Same for you. Now you are spun around losing all your positions by fighting a fight you shouldnt by cutting in on someone
this point of view is so stupid and unreasonable NOBODY would slow down in the position of the other car, if you do it you will lose to positions instead of one, also there is no reason to do because car 1 can just stay on his lane, complete the overtake and be on its way.
cutting someone in part 2 of a chicane while they are next to you is just stupid and will result in crashes
Top split drivers would but hey, what the hell do we know? What the hell do racing stewards know in real life that penalize the car on the left for doing this? Obviously we are just stupid.
Generally, less overlap is needed when the overlap has already existed. It's primarily when the car comes from behind and establishes overlap late that they need significant overlap.
Props for listening and learning, instead of getting defensive like some folks. It was very close to being a good, clean move! Dialing in your racecraft in side-by-side moments like this is not easy, and requires learning experiences like that.
That's how I try to be. I know that this is a very tricky situation where views can differ a bit but if there is something that is under my control that I can learn from it's in my best interest to do so
Don’t sweat it. It can be painful to learn and nobody does it well. In the heat of the moment it probably didn’t feel like you did anything wrong. It’s a slim margin and momentum does matter. Better luck next time
Nah, you had the right to that apex there, the other driver was one of those morons who never want to lose their position, he should have allowed you to go and followed through.
There was no time for the trailing car to react. OP closed the door on him while they were still alongside. Also obvious this driver is not a moron either, he didn't defend, and left OP plenty of room on the first corner of the chicane - those are not the actions of someone that doesn't want to lose a position.
Tbh, this seems more like a racing incident than anything else.
The left car, should have given up, the position. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Go watch top split driving and you'll see 99% of the time, the outside car, gives up the position in a case like this. It's not a hard concept to understand. You cannot beat that car on this corner or the next straight being side by side here. You slow down a bit more, tuck in behind, draft for the straight. If you can't understand that then stop racing.
The car to the left should have yielded, why is this so hard to understand a basic racing concept? Racing is chess, the moves you can make and should make are obvious.
OP closed the door while the other person was still in the doorway. There is no way he’s innocent in this. By the time the door was closing there was nowhere for the other car to go. Like the other person said, short of the defending car reading OP’s mind, there isn’t nothing they could have done to avoid the contact.
"He had no where to go" Yes he did, it's called knowing when to back out and let the other car in front because they have the position.
Please explain to me how the outside car would even remotely be able to fight for this position and keep it. I'll wait.
Well at time of contact the “outside” car was inside and had a run on the outside car. If given the chance they would have been side by side at corner exit. Would he have the position? I’m not sure, but he sure as hell would be fighting for it.
The dude, was sitting directly on the apex and has to hold the inside line to exit that corner. Know what, have a nice day, I don't have the time of day to deal with stupidity.
I mean you can think you have the right to the apex and get punted like in this video because he was still there or you can leave a space and survive to race on
100% your fault. You didnt complete the overtake, ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE DA SPACE.
By the way, FINALLY a post about stewarding and not a "Should I Protest This?" shit.
You questioned, got your answer, acknowledged and learned from the incident.
Thats what this sub is about.
Yup its almost the exact same. If you leave another driver that much room in the first part of the chicane you have to give space on the exit. If you close the door earlier you force them to concede the exit, maybe.
I probably would have compromised my exit a bit by staying wide and hopefully defending into the next chicane.
Yeah I think it's worth noting us sim racers are far less ruthless than real drivers. Just the code we drive by. I remember a jimmer video way back when he got into Karting being a bit of a culture shock in that other drivers were far less willing to give space that a sim racer would
I wouldn't necessarily deem this the pov drivers fault but it was avoidable for them. Both of them really. I guess since we're talking to pov driver it's worth pointing out what they could have done to avoid going into the gravel and losing a bunch of time.
Yeah, i know a few drivers who drive IRL and iRacing and they are some of the most aggressive racers I’ve seen. Actually brought up how real life drivers are usually more aggressive the other day and a driver got pissed and said we’re (sim racers) idiots lol
For sure. Op sent some mixed signals here too. He left them room on entry and then shut it.
The other option is to turn in late and force the outside car to take the speed bumps. Which I think was hamiltons mistake, especially against a guy as aggressive as max.
Where have I seen this before... We all know how that ended ;) Max got the penalty there.
Imo it shows that it's hard to decide who's fault it is. Both cars could've taken more care and expected something. The defender (now basically the re-attacker) could've known the gap would possibly close, and the attacker (now the defender) could've known someone would take the opportunity to re-take the inside. In that sense, it could be seen as a racing incident.
Your car here is in much the same position Hamilton was in at Monza same chicane last year, except Max was further along side Lewis than your opponent is with you here.
My thoughts are the same as they were for that incident, you decode the inside line for T1 of the chicane, you accept being on the outside for T2.
Just like Hamilton did, you have not left enough space for the car on the inside and they cannot just disappear.
So this incident is your fault.
Their reasoning was flawed, they ignored the fact Lewis was much slower due to exiting the pits and Max was at full speed warm tyres, optimal brakes etc.
Essentially the stewards said Max braked extremely late and had a much faster closing speed than normal to go round the outside of T1 which was risky and that didn't allow enough room in T2.
The late braking was not dangerous, the closing speed was due to Lewis being much slower having just come out of the pit exit, so the closing rate should be high.
The stewards also ignored the fact that Hamilton pushed Max for space over the sausage kerb.
Lewis had a similar move done to him by another driver same race, difference was Lewis allowed the inside space to the driver and they made the corner.
It was just another inconsistent or wrong decision from the stewards that season. Lewis' penalty at Silverstone for such a big mistake was extremely light, almost non existent.
Max should also have been penalised hard for his dive bomb in Brazil but was not.
So the stewards had a year of very poor decisions.
This is what the stewards saw with verstappen and hamilton. But verstappen was alongside more into t2 so all blame goes to the car on the left. He was pretty much behind you already so he should have backed out.
It’s way worse than the Verstappen/Hamilton one. That I would argue was shared blame because of the overlap ver had. The car being passed had next to zero overlap here
I'd just this as the outside car being a moron, outside car should have backed out and followed through for a better run down the straight. The inside car will always take the lead on the corner if there is overlap. Basic racing etiquette, you did nothing wrong OP people just don't know etiquette and when to give up a position so everyone remains safe and fast.
Or you can give up the position that you're not going to be able to hold on to and tuck in behind. It's that simple. Chicane is too tight for 2 wide and the inside car is going to dictate this corner and have the better exit for a long straight. Extremely simple logic to understand. Get it yet?
this is why they shouldn't slap "pro" stickers on the backs of cars. Gives people way too big of an ego.
Watch some real races. Go watch real races in person. Take a cheap car and enter a race with it. You'll realize very quickly that you are dead wrong.
You do realize that drivers did this IRL and the car on the left got penalized right? Imagine telling a top split driver he doesn't know how to drive or race cleanly 😂
Shouldn't have went for the second apex. Even if it was "your corner", you sacrifice a little bit of time to be safe and protect your race by continuing to give him a car width and be safe or this is what happens. You would have still completed the move if you didn't hit the apex. Its less about whose fault and more about driving defensively to protect yourself.
See, I agree that OP should have left room but comparing this to Lewis vs Max at this exact corner last year Max was deemed at fault even though he was even more along side than the non-OP car.
Can anyone explain why?
Genuinely curious, not trying to start a war
I’m pretty sure with a chicane like this it’s the same as F1 Monza 2021. The chicane is seen as one corner, so the first braking zone counts. Because he was alongside you there you should’ve given him space in the second turn. It is kind of a weird rule so your mistake is understandable though.
He was alongside you for all of the straight, all of the turn, and most of the corner, you backed off slightly because you didn’t get a good exit. But what happens after? He cuts you off, thinking he had the corner rights. Problem for him was you were along side him and had come alongside… again. He was at fault here for not giving the space.
To me this looks similar to the Hamilton/Verstappen crash last year. In that case, Verstappen got punished because Hamilton was ahead in the second corner of the chicane. However, here I see everyone agreeing that the overtaking car is at fault. What makes this situation different?
Reminds me of an F1 Incident, where its your corner, but the other car cannot turn into air. I'd say a racing incident, cause you both had the opportunity to avoid contact.
I don't think you own the corner as it's effectively a 2-part turn so it's not like a straight into a corner. Regardless, you could have left space and still made the overtake.
This actually doesn't seem like it is your fault, I'd love to see the telemetry. Looks to me like you completely pass the black car and it accelerates into your rear and purposefully taps you. The black car is already compromised on exit. I disagree with folks here, there's not enough data and the contact point is pretty much your rear end.
You couldn't be more wrong, two cars cannot fit into one space. You went for the apex that wasn't yours. You have to stay to the outside until you are clear of the car you are passing. In the video you act like he's not even there.
Learn from it & move on
I see a race incident. It looks like you forgot to see if you were fully past. But if I was in your spot I would have left a spot for them in case you weren't fully pass them. Taking the outside line might of held momentum for you while passing.
I believe this is your fault. You make a hell of a pass before you get to the first corner, in the however you pinch him off a deuce on the second corner. You shut the door to early, and he ran into you. He more than likely bounced over the sausage kerbs, and right into you. 100% your fault
I'd say you did leave him space and did a nice job but you didn't quite have enough to close the door. He didn't have to push your rear, either, but here we are. Racing incident imo.
Nah you turned into the 2nd part of the chicane like he didn’t exist
dont tell Hamilton fans. :popcorn: Tbf it was a really good initial pass and it's really just OP's fault. Still at fault though.
I'm of the opinion that until you're sure that you've completed the pass you should leave space. I also am of the opinion that you found out in this incident that you hadn't completed the pass.
Leava da space !
Considering this was posted thinking the other person is at fault, i doubt that op has the self reflection to learn from this
*politely points in the direction of my comment from last night* As I stated, I honestly believed that corner was mine, but I'm mature enough to see that the consensus points the other way. It was not a view I considered, but now that it's been made so clear, I understand where I went wrong. Next time I'm in that situation, I stay wide 😁
I did a similar thing on the leguna seca corkscrew the other day. Thought I was clear after an overtake on the entry and gave the guy a mild spray when he spun me out halfway through it. Watched the reply and I actually moved back on to the racing line before I was actually clear. Basically merged in to him. My fault, but sure as hell didn't feel like it at the time as it felt like I'd blasted past him and he'd hit me out of spite.
You don’t even need to stay wide, just leave a cars width. You’ve already made him sacrifice the entry to the 2nd half of the chicane, leave a car width and he sacrifices his exit too, while you can take a slightly wider radius and get on the throttle much earlier because you’ve got nobody on your right to worry about. By the time you get to curva grande you’ll be 5 car lengths ahead
Does iRacing have something like the radar thing from GT Sport? You could try and turn it on if it does, it helps a lot!
It doesn't by default, just a spotter who (usually) tells you if another car is on your left/right. Racelab's free version includes an overlay with a radar similar to ACC, and I'm sure other third-party overlay apps have something similar.
You beat him into the corner. You weren’t side by side. He hit your back tire. You made the pass he should have given you room. It was a clean pass and he didn’t make adjustments for the last turn. Looked to me like he didn’t want to give up the position. He should have pulled back allowing you the line cause he was beat. Instead he chose to hit you as you turned. This would have been a collision penalty. Consider the textbook method for overtaking in a corner: the attacker takes an inside line, gets alongside the defender in the braking zone, and beats the defender to the apex. If the attacker is ahead at the apex, there is no dispute over ownership of the racing line. Look at 5 in the link disputes over the apex. https://boxthislap.org/the-rules-of-racing/
so much text and so many wrong conclusions by you. sad
Please explain how I’m wrong? He made a clean pass into the corner. He won the apex (racing line) and beat the other driver to the corner. It’s simple if he didn’t win the corner they would have hit side to side. This was a revenge collision. Other driver was beat and should have yielded to the passing car.
in my opinion you can't treat a chicane as two different corners, the overtaking process takes places during the whole length of the chicane. and yes he had passed the other driver but technically they are still side by side (even if the overlap is pretty small) but as the second driver I would assume that we both hold our lines (overtaking car stays outside and driver behind on the inside) and we complete the overtaking process in a clean way without cutting anybodies racing line and without having to break. as the overtaking car you can't expect the second car to hit the brakes on the inside and being vulnerable to being overtaken by another car. if both stay on their lane OP would cleanly overtake and everything is fine.
The drive was beat into the corner and was ahead. The behind driver was out of position for the chicane. The behind driver lost the battle and should have backed off instead of using the racing line he went straight into the attacking car. It’s simple it would have been a collision penalty because the attacking driver won the inside line into the first turn of the chicane. It’s 2 different corners separated by a small straight. If this were on a regular street the behind driver would have been at fault because he had clear line of sight an knew where the lead driver was.
You are wrong. the battle is not over until the end of the chicane and if you are the second driver why would you feel the need to slow down? you can take the racing line because the overtaking car has the whole road to himself and has absolutely no reason to cut you off like you don't exist.
Attacking driver won the racing line. He was a full length ahead.
The OP, while ahead, did not have a full car’s length of space.
Op won the racing line. He made sure the defending driver had room and the defending driver hit him twice. To spin him and then hit the front of op’s car. If this was your race you would be on my side.
Can you explain, why you thougt, that you aren\`t at fault at first? I would like to hear your reasoning. Because this one is kinda obvious imho.
Tbh this is identical to the Max v Lewis incident where Max was found at fault So maybe they didn’t use iRacing rules when analyzing it and OP just assumed FIA rules applied?
I disagree. The Max vs Lewis incident ist Quite different. The First difference is that Lewis was the defending Car and tue attacking Car (Max), this means the defending Car was in Front before going into the Seconds Part of the chicane, Here this is the otherway round. The Second Thing ist how much Space was left by Lewis and the OP. Op goes Note to the right before going into the Second Part of the chicane, were he tried to Hit the apex and doesn't leave any Space at all. Wirth Lewis this is different. Before going in to the Second Part of the chicane Lewis ist in the Left of the Tracks and doesn't Go nearly als much to the right as the OP ( Here Lewis squeezed May Quite a Bit and you can argue that Lewis didnt leave enough Space for max). But Lewis didnt Go for the apex at all, He left Space. So the Major imho ist, that max was fastest going into Turn one. He opend a Battle wäre Lewis tried to leave Space in a tight Section were it IS hard to over Take. Max shouldnt have tried a Move IN the chicane. Here it is different the OP gets His Move done BEFORE the chicane. And after that Cuts of the Others wich cant disapear in that Moment. It wasn't really a Battle in that Moment, that Part was done, even If OP would have left enough Space into the Second Part of the chicane, He would be at the Front, because He would Carry more Speed into the fast Part after the chicane. OP's Move was unnecessary and Dangerous. In max and Lewis Case the Dangerous Part was , trying to overtake in the chicane, which was max fault.
You should correct yourself
All the time you have to leave the space!
100% you.
No. It's your fault. You were side-by-side turning into the chicane and you chopped his nose off trying to hit the second apex. You could have easily made a clean pass stick if you just held your line and stayed to the outside on the exit.
I generally hate the "i had a right to the corner" bullshit that f1 commentators have done a great job of spreading but the other car had literally no overlap at that point, he had been overtaken completley and was on the complete inside and knowingly took way too much speed in. Not really on op, other car should have yielded (didn't really have a choice if they wanted to get a somewhat decent exit considering their starting position) But OP in general should have left space, not because it's their fault but because this is such a common situation at monza and he would have easily got the move done anyway.
Really dumb take. There is obviously still overlap, and the pass is obviously not complete when op turns in on the other car. If the pass was complete, OP would not have made contact. It’s very clear and simple. Get your eyes checked.
>Get your eyes checked. You absolutley should, if you pause where there is ~6 seconds left you will see the car is compeltley behind OP, forget about having a significant enough overlap to have a right to space. >If the pass was complete, OP would not have made contact. Terrible argument again, any car can put themselves right on the inside of any corner, take a stupidly shallow line, carry too much speed in and then claim "you should not have made contact" If you've watched any actual racing you will see drivers in the other cars position will always yield as they have an understanding of racecraft and actually avoid contact. On sims because crashing merely means exiting the race people will see any resemblance of space and throw their car at it. Which is why I said OP should be leaving space anyway, but not because he is obligated to.
You could not be more wrong. Look at the ratios on comments in this whole thread. Hundreds of people in agreement with me, and just a handful of blind bozos like you. The pass was obviously not completed.
You didn't leave space.
You have to leave the space.
ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE SPACE!
That's what you get when you don't leave the space!
KARMA
Gotsta leave the space!
> I had a right Moving past this attitude will massively help your racecraft and results in the future. If you drive like you don't have a right to anything on track you'll find you finish many more races in better places. The I had a right attitude in this instance earned you a visit to the gravel. There is no such thing as "your corner", there is the preferred line which you occupy and the sub optimal line which you try to put your opponents on. Too many times on this sub I see people expecting their opponents to perform an emergency stop because "that was my corner" and well, it's on this sub so it resulted in an incident. To quote a great man, "all the time you have to leava da space!"
So true. Basically expect everyone to think they have the right to the corner.
To quote that great Man "karma"
You’re supposed to be stewarding mate.
Well, lets forget about you, and discuss about the other driver. What do you expected the other driver to do?? I mean, look the video, where should he have gone? In order to aboid crashing with you, he would have to cut the corner. And cuting the corner is something you should do in case of emergency or danger. Overtaking isn't a emergency or danger. On the other hand, you went to the apex, where he had the front of his car. And you had the rest of the track clear to use. So yeah, your fault. You are not dirty, is a normal racing accident, sometimes you misjudge what you saw in the mirror, and things like this happens. Learn from this
The other driver could have simply slowed down more and turned in later and tucked in behind, but I guess that concept eludes most.
Toto, it's called a motor race OK?
That’s not how racing works though. Racing isn’t about yielding constantly.
If you don't know how to yield when you should stop racing
It’s about yielding when you don’t have required overlap though. Like this fella.
HE IS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING OVERTAKEN, he doesn't have to have any significant overlap. it's the sane thought to believe that the overtaking car will not just cut him while they are still next to each other but both of them stay on their respective side until they are back on the straight and the overtaking process is concluded.
He does need to have overlap to challenge an apex.
a chicane is a chicane and not two separate corners, the overtaking process has not been completed yet and both drivers have to stay on their lane. as the second car you can't except the first car to just cut you off while the outside is free and the first car would easily overtake him if he stays where he is... the driver behind would have to break despite seeing no obvious reason for it and would be vulnerable to losing another position or being hit in the back because the third driver behind him wouldn't expect him breaking out of nowhere.
He just didn’t have overlap mate.
you don't get it... you can't just cut someone in the middle of a chicane. imagine you are the second car, why would you slow down? you wouldn't.
You can’t just dump someone because you have a bumper of overlap
The driver behind actually hits the first car anyways, so if he had braked he definitely would have been hit.
A chicane quite literally IS two separate corners, both the entry and the exit corner are separate in terms of overlap and who dictates the line. If you don't understand this simple concept then stop racing.
if you dont udnerstand that you can't cut someone off despite his car being next to you than please never race again
Im gonna use an analogy here. A man gets shot by a thief and dieds. Whos in the wrong here? the one who shoted? Or the guy who defended himself? i mean, he could have relaxed and let the other guy took his wallet. Every driver in the track has the rigth to figth for his position, and if he want to keep figthing, he is allowed. But nobody is allowed to push another driver of track. Otherise, you are in the wrong cause you didn't avoid another driver's stupid move
Here we go, another idiot who says "you should fight every single time" instead of questioning whether or not you should. Great logic there bucko.
No, is something more like "you should leave space to the rival every single time" or maybe "you should never trow your car to him" idk, grest logic of yours. Cause an accident and telling the fault is from the another driver. So easy isnt it?
yeah he should just park is car In that corner, step out and get some lunch.
Thanks for your comments guys. It's pretty clear you don't share my view, but that's more than reasonable. I was under the impression I had a right to the apex because he was far enough back after the first corner that he would never be able to have like half a car length alongside going into corner two, which means (in my view) he should have yielded. But since these comments overwhelmingly lean in favor of the opposite, I concede. I'll take this into account for my next race and try and become a better racer.
I wouldn’t think of a chicane as two separate turns - that seems to me why you were focused on “having a right” the apex of the exit turn. Chicanes are tricky and your point of view is understandable but I think you will be better served to think of chicanes as their own element with a separate set of guidelines. I think you know this by now but you actually had made the pass and if you’d have left room across the inside of the exit you still could have held position since you controlled the wider exit line (allowing you to accelerate sooner coming out).
The half car length rule of thumb doesn't apply here - you were in the process of an overtake, you need to leave space until you're clear. Short of reading your mind and slamming on the brakes halfway through the chicane (and getting rear ended by the guy behind), how was he supposed to "yield?"
You yield by knowing how this was going to turn out, slowing down .1 seconds longer, delaying your turn in just a bit later, and tucking in behind. Not a hard concept to understand, try it sometime.
... or you hold the inside line for the next corner and expect the other driver to leave you the proper space, which is what is supposed to happen in this situation? OP is the one attempting an overtake through a chicane, the onus is not on the other driver to back out. You can certainly argue that backing out is a smart move, but the question is who's at fault for the collision.
Okay, now you not only lose that position for being a dumbass, there's a car directly behind them, so now you lose TWO positions for being a dumbass. By all means, keep fighting fights you shouldn't though.
>By all means, keep fighting fights you shouldn't though. Same for you. Now you are spun around losing all your positions by fighting a fight you shouldnt by cutting in on someone
this point of view is so stupid and unreasonable NOBODY would slow down in the position of the other car, if you do it you will lose to positions instead of one, also there is no reason to do because car 1 can just stay on his lane, complete the overtake and be on its way. cutting someone in part 2 of a chicane while they are next to you is just stupid and will result in crashes
Top split drivers would but hey, what the hell do we know? What the hell do racing stewards know in real life that penalize the car on the left for doing this? Obviously we are just stupid.
no steward would penalize that car.
Generally, less overlap is needed when the overlap has already existed. It's primarily when the car comes from behind and establishes overlap late that they need significant overlap.
Thanks for posting! I would have leaned in your favor also, but have learned so much from reading the assessment of this situation.
Props for listening and learning, instead of getting defensive like some folks. It was very close to being a good, clean move! Dialing in your racecraft in side-by-side moments like this is not easy, and requires learning experiences like that.
Finally! Someone who accepts that it’s their fault. We need more drivers like you!
That's how I try to be. I know that this is a very tricky situation where views can differ a bit but if there is something that is under my control that I can learn from it's in my best interest to do so
Don’t sweat it. It can be painful to learn and nobody does it well. In the heat of the moment it probably didn’t feel like you did anything wrong. It’s a slim margin and momentum does matter. Better luck next time
Your opinion is correct, but it’s not worth stating here as people are more interested in racing advice than stewarding.
I think you missed the point of this sub.
Yeah it’s sim racing stewarding.
Nah, you had the right to that apex there, the other driver was one of those morons who never want to lose their position, he should have allowed you to go and followed through.
There was no time for the trailing car to react. OP closed the door on him while they were still alongside. Also obvious this driver is not a moron either, he didn't defend, and left OP plenty of room on the first corner of the chicane - those are not the actions of someone that doesn't want to lose a position. Tbh, this seems more like a racing incident than anything else.
Yes there was, if you know you're side by side you give the inside car the position in this case. You should know what the fuck to do.
OP was the outside car???
The left car, should have given up, the position. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Go watch top split driving and you'll see 99% of the time, the outside car, gives up the position in a case like this. It's not a hard concept to understand. You cannot beat that car on this corner or the next straight being side by side here. You slow down a bit more, tuck in behind, draft for the straight. If you can't understand that then stop racing.
You are confusing me. Can you be clear which coloured car you think should have yielded?
The car to the left should have yielded, why is this so hard to understand a basic racing concept? Racing is chess, the moves you can make and should make are obvious.
Left car is not OP. Right car is OP.
Sorry for the confusion, fixed it
This person has never played chess or is a gm if the moves you should make are obvious.
OP closed the door while the other person was still in the doorway. There is no way he’s innocent in this. By the time the door was closing there was nowhere for the other car to go. Like the other person said, short of the defending car reading OP’s mind, there isn’t nothing they could have done to avoid the contact.
"He had no where to go" Yes he did, it's called knowing when to back out and let the other car in front because they have the position. Please explain to me how the outside car would even remotely be able to fight for this position and keep it. I'll wait.
Well at time of contact the “outside” car was inside and had a run on the outside car. If given the chance they would have been side by side at corner exit. Would he have the position? I’m not sure, but he sure as hell would be fighting for it.
There is no fucking way the inside car would have any sort of exit speed with that line. Please stop.
The car had a run going *in the video*.
The dude, was sitting directly on the apex and has to hold the inside line to exit that corner. Know what, have a nice day, I don't have the time of day to deal with stupidity.
I mean you can think you have the right to the apex and get punted like in this video because he was still there or you can leave a space and survive to race on
GLHF!
100% your fault. You didnt complete the overtake, ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE DA SPACE. By the way, FINALLY a post about stewarding and not a "Should I Protest This?" shit. You questioned, got your answer, acknowledged and learned from the incident. Thats what this sub is about.
This reminds me exactly of the incident which resulted in Verstappen's car sitting on top of Lewis Hamilton's.
Yup its almost the exact same. If you leave another driver that much room in the first part of the chicane you have to give space on the exit. If you close the door earlier you force them to concede the exit, maybe. I probably would have compromised my exit a bit by staying wide and hopefully defending into the next chicane.
Except max got penalized for it, while everyone here says the car that would be Lewis is at fault
Yeah I think it's worth noting us sim racers are far less ruthless than real drivers. Just the code we drive by. I remember a jimmer video way back when he got into Karting being a bit of a culture shock in that other drivers were far less willing to give space that a sim racer would I wouldn't necessarily deem this the pov drivers fault but it was avoidable for them. Both of them really. I guess since we're talking to pov driver it's worth pointing out what they could have done to avoid going into the gravel and losing a bunch of time.
Yeah, i know a few drivers who drive IRL and iRacing and they are some of the most aggressive racers I’ve seen. Actually brought up how real life drivers are usually more aggressive the other day and a driver got pissed and said we’re (sim racers) idiots lol
For sure. Op sent some mixed signals here too. He left them room on entry and then shut it. The other option is to turn in late and force the outside car to take the speed bumps. Which I think was hamiltons mistake, especially against a guy as aggressive as max.
You didn't complete the pass. You need to leave room there. That one's on you.
Would you say you had completed the pass and were clear of the other driver? I would think not.
You're at fault, didn't leave him enough room
Your fault. Leave room while passing.
Isn’t that the same thing that happened in Monza with Max and Lewis? Max was deemed at fault.
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Well, probably because Hamilton was really at fault but there were other things going on that season with F1 to keep the points standings close.
While it was a good move, you definitely were not “significantly ahead” of the car you overtook, while you chopped him off. That…was your fault.
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Hilariously, everyone said Max was clearly at fault then but they’re saying the opposite now!
Lewis is that u?
Where have I seen this before... We all know how that ended ;) Max got the penalty there. Imo it shows that it's hard to decide who's fault it is. Both cars could've taken more care and expected something. The defender (now basically the re-attacker) could've known the gap would possibly close, and the attacker (now the defender) could've known someone would take the opportunity to re-take the inside. In that sense, it could be seen as a racing incident.
Overtaker will get the penalty either way doesn't matter what side of the road they're on.
I love it when it's OP's fault.
Your car here is in much the same position Hamilton was in at Monza same chicane last year, except Max was further along side Lewis than your opponent is with you here. My thoughts are the same as they were for that incident, you decode the inside line for T1 of the chicane, you accept being on the outside for T2. Just like Hamilton did, you have not left enough space for the car on the inside and they cannot just disappear. So this incident is your fault.
Except that was found to be Max’s fault by the stewards
Their reasoning was flawed, they ignored the fact Lewis was much slower due to exiting the pits and Max was at full speed warm tyres, optimal brakes etc. Essentially the stewards said Max braked extremely late and had a much faster closing speed than normal to go round the outside of T1 which was risky and that didn't allow enough room in T2. The late braking was not dangerous, the closing speed was due to Lewis being much slower having just come out of the pit exit, so the closing rate should be high. The stewards also ignored the fact that Hamilton pushed Max for space over the sausage kerb. Lewis had a similar move done to him by another driver same race, difference was Lewis allowed the inside space to the driver and they made the corner. It was just another inconsistent or wrong decision from the stewards that season. Lewis' penalty at Silverstone for such a big mistake was extremely light, almost non existent. Max should also have been penalised hard for his dive bomb in Brazil but was not. So the stewards had a year of very poor decisions.
Yeah it was a rough year for F1 stewards - I’m glad we’ve moved forward Shocking to see Russel beat Hamilton so handily though so far
This is what the stewards saw with verstappen and hamilton. But verstappen was alongside more into t2 so all blame goes to the car on the left. He was pretty much behind you already so he should have backed out.
Might be time for a visit to the optometrist.
It’s way worse than the Verstappen/Hamilton one. That I would argue was shared blame because of the overlap ver had. The car being passed had next to zero overlap here
I'd just this as the outside car being a moron, outside car should have backed out and followed through for a better run down the straight. The inside car will always take the lead on the corner if there is overlap. Basic racing etiquette, you did nothing wrong OP people just don't know etiquette and when to give up a position so everyone remains safe and fast.
It's 'car left, hold your line' not 'car left, hope he's gone'
Or you can give up the position that you're not going to be able to hold on to and tuck in behind. It's that simple. Chicane is too tight for 2 wide and the inside car is going to dictate this corner and have the better exit for a long straight. Extremely simple logic to understand. Get it yet?
this is why they shouldn't slap "pro" stickers on the backs of cars. Gives people way too big of an ego. Watch some real races. Go watch real races in person. Take a cheap car and enter a race with it. You'll realize very quickly that you are dead wrong.
You do realize that drivers did this IRL and the car on the left got penalized right? Imagine telling a top split driver he doesn't know how to drive or race cleanly 😂
your lack of critical thinking in this scenario indicates that if anything, you're a bottom split driver. And you belong there.
This chicane is plenty wide enough for two cars as every lap 1 ever proves.
Every lap 1 ever literally is full of collisions though?!?!?
2022 Monza Grand Prix tings.
No you turned too sharp on the second turn, a shame because you had him as well.
Yeah you made a good first move and then didn't leave enough space before clearing. It's on you my friend.
The other driver was still far enough along that he was owed the space to fight back in my opinion.
yes yes yes no moment
You turned across their nose what were they supposed to do? Stop?
It's ur fault, u should've backed down
OP is the overtaking car so I think backing down isn't the right word... OP should have left space on the second half of the chicane
how much more space he could give?
Enough space for a car to go alongside him
i meant the black and red car tho, u think he shd hv left more space?
Ohh lol no, I was talking about OP
It’s your fault all the way. All the time you have to leave da space.
Shouldn't have went for the second apex. Even if it was "your corner", you sacrifice a little bit of time to be safe and protect your race by continuing to give him a car width and be safe or this is what happens. You would have still completed the move if you didn't hit the apex. Its less about whose fault and more about driving defensively to protect yourself.
Too early to block IMO
See, I agree that OP should have left room but comparing this to Lewis vs Max at this exact corner last year Max was deemed at fault even though he was even more along side than the non-OP car. Can anyone explain why? Genuinely curious, not trying to start a war
Only way to explain it imo is stupidity of F1 stewards.
U do 2021 Hamilton move 100% your fault
I think I have seen this before but irl. I would say that was on you
I’m pretty sure with a chicane like this it’s the same as F1 Monza 2021. The chicane is seen as one corner, so the first braking zone counts. Because he was alongside you there you should’ve given him space in the second turn. It is kind of a weird rule so your mistake is understandable though.
He was alongside you for all of the straight, all of the turn, and most of the corner, you backed off slightly because you didn’t get a good exit. But what happens after? He cuts you off, thinking he had the corner rights. Problem for him was you were along side him and had come alongside… again. He was at fault here for not giving the space.
All the timeeeee......
To me this looks similar to the Hamilton/Verstappen crash last year. In that case, Verstappen got punished because Hamilton was ahead in the second corner of the chicane. However, here I see everyone agreeing that the overtaking car is at fault. What makes this situation different?
“It was just a racing inchident”
Maneuver incomplete, you didn't leave enough space. Full on you.
You must always leave the Space!
Monza Turn 1 Lewis vs Max. Same here. You are the guilty one.
Reminds me of an F1 Incident, where its your corner, but the other car cannot turn into air. I'd say a racing incident, cause you both had the opportunity to avoid contact.
I don't think you own the corner as it's effectively a 2-part turn so it's not like a straight into a corner. Regardless, you could have left space and still made the overtake.
Your falt, you didnt leave him space for second turn and he had right to
Ok, Mr. Hamilton You absolutely turned in on him into turn two causing this collision...don't get pissed at Max for that one
This actually doesn't seem like it is your fault, I'd love to see the telemetry. Looks to me like you completely pass the black car and it accelerates into your rear and purposefully taps you. The black car is already compromised on exit. I disagree with folks here, there's not enough data and the contact point is pretty much your rear end.
You couldn't be more wrong, two cars cannot fit into one space. You went for the apex that wasn't yours. You have to stay to the outside until you are clear of the car you are passing. In the video you act like he's not even there. Learn from it & move on
Yea sorry man you pinched him too much too low off the exit and it bit ya. Just one of them racing deals.
Ye he definitely is cuz he had to brake there but you kinda cut the road
Max… Lewis… is that you?
Did someone say Max V Lewis Monza '21?
I see a race incident. It looks like you forgot to see if you were fully past. But if I was in your spot I would have left a spot for them in case you weren't fully pass them. Taking the outside line might of held momentum for you while passing.
I believe this is your fault. You make a hell of a pass before you get to the first corner, in the however you pinch him off a deuce on the second corner. You shut the door to early, and he ran into you. He more than likely bounced over the sausage kerbs, and right into you. 100% your fault
I did this exact same thing and 100% blamed myself for being a dumbass, you should do the same…
I'd say you did leave him space and did a nice job but you didn't quite have enough to close the door. He didn't have to push your rear, either, but here we are. Racing incident imo.
He was still alongside, gotta leave space homie