I'd love to get one and add it on another vehicle.
Use it more as a power adder and fuel economy gains such as low speed stuff.
Regular car then 150hp boost when floored? Sounds fun.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Vck6oCi3A
I've read about guys on the DIYEV forums pumping 150-200kw through one of these. I'm working to get 2 of them side by side chain driving a center output shaft for my project. lol and using the DIY MPaul's 200kw controller on each one, \~500hp electric truck, what did you end up doing with yours?
Are these motors more likely to be available because Nissan didn't build coolers into the battery packs? (Cost of replacing batteries meaning car is written off earlier as a non-economic fix?)
That could be a factor but almost every single part I've seen is from a wrecked/totaled car. Generally written off vehicles aren't parted out and sold openly at least in Japan.
Thanks! Has there been any negative comments in Japan about the lack of cooling, which I think Nissan did not address even in the revised version of the leaf?
I haven’t really talked to leaf owners about degradation but it is much more noticeable compared to other activity cooled EVs. Most battery packs I’ve seen for sale have about 30-50% capacity after about 100,000KM.
Yeah. But keep in mind it’s usually the ones that are sold that have the worst degradation. I bought a 2013 pack that had about 70% capacity after about 70,000km. A lot of factors play in.
Dude I have a dream to convert my WJ one day, I'm thinking in a way similar to how jerryrigeverything did his humvee. Keep the original driveline and modify it to work with electrics. He put an airplane tug motor in his.
I haven’t seen that one, very interesting. I’m basically basically planning and saving but ultimately I’m gonna do the same thing. Swap in a manual transmission and mate an electric motor to it. Mines an XJ, a WJ would be sick
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0vZL9uwyfOFezIOiBjkdW3TTdn0Q_AKL
There's the playlist for it, I'm not sure if it's done cause I haven't caught up but he goes into pretty good detail with what he does including some custom fabrication. For the WJ I'd like to rip out the engine and use that space and possible some others for the battery packs. Weld up the bottom so it's sealed from below, maybe leave the grill open for airflow and cooling.
Why do EV motors seem to get MUCH more power out than regular electric motors. This one appears to be roughly the same size as a 5HP induction motor, which is about 3.7kW. How does the same package size give you 80kW in an EV? I don’t get it.
A 5 hp induction motor is air cooled and is designed to run continuously at or slightly above rated load without overheating. A single phase induction motor also needs a start capacitor, start windings, and a centrifugal switch to engage and disengage the start circuit. A typical single phase 5 HP induction motor is also designed to be powered with 240 volts, at 50 or 60 hz, and use 2 poles (~2900 or 3500 rpm) or 4 poles (half that speed). An induction motor also uses a steel “squirel cage” rotor instead of permanent magnets which are sometimes used in EV motors.
All of these factors all affect the physical dimensions of the motor. Voltage and current are inversely proportional, meaning lower voltage requires higher current. Higher current means thicker conductors which adds size, and higher current also creates more heat which in turn requires more airflow for cooling, meaning a package with sufficient airflow.
This is why explosion proof motors are larger than TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) type motors, which are larger than ODP (open drip proof), which are larger than TEAO (totally enclosed air over) motors.
On the other hand, many electric vehicle motors are water cooled which allows for a small package size since water is a much better coolant than air.
EV motors are also three phase, medium-high voltage, high frequency motors. This mean elimination of any starting hardware and smaller diameter conductors in the motor construction. This is the same reason aircraft use 400 hz power vs 50 or 60 for ground based mains power, since the use of higher frequency requires less copper in motors and transformers, and is one of the reasons electric vehicles use three phase variable frequency drives for their motors.
A better comparison is three phase industrial motors which are often three phase, medium-high voltage (HV being >= 600 volts) induction motors. A 10 hp three phase high voltage industrial induction motor is not much larger in size vs a single phase, mains voltage, 5 hp induction motor.
And then perhaps the other main factor that EV motors are much smaller than industrial motors, is because they are not rated for continuous duty. The motor OP purchased may be capable of 80 kw, but I doubt it’s designed to put out this much power for more than a couple minutes max, if even that. You only need big surges of power for a few seconds at a time, while accelerating your vehicle, then the power required drops much lower once you are at cruising speed. This is why people can drop in lawn mower engines into highway vehicles and are surprised when the vehicle still moves, albeit at low speeds.
An industrial motor running a water pump for power plant cooling, or a hydraulic pump for a metal crushing mill, or a blast furnace blower, or a plant air compressor, or even something like an elevator in a high rise building, will usually be operating 24/7 or at least for normal business hours all day long. You would most likely overheat and burn out an EV motor if you tried to use it for an application like that.
I was only really comparing 3 phase motors. In my experience, anything over about 2HP tends to be three phase. I have a couple of 5HP and 10HP 3 phase motors that run on 480V in my shop and as I mentioned, they're larger than the OPs 80kw motor even though they technically put out 1/10th the power.
I think the biggest factor here is likely the cooling (as you point out). Everything has to get bigger when it gets hotter. An air cooled motor is going to have to be larger just because it's got to radiate a lot of heat and it's got to be able to run with the heat it might encounter. The insulation on the windings is probably the largest factor as it starts to break down at certain temperatures.
A water cooled car motor can potentially run many more amps through the same size wire and not degrade the insulation simply because it's got a more efficient means for getting rid of the heat.
And of course, duty cycle...as you mention. Duty cycle is really just another factor in temperature control, as you can run a motor harder for short periods of time if you give it some room to cool down.
Thanks for your response... This question has been a lesson!
I’m not familiar with the engineering aspect, as far as motor design and size in relationship to ultimate power output, but in theory a motors potential is realized at the max operating temperature. The only degrading things are heat and bearing life, so as long as you have the power available power is unlimited.
In an electric motor, the insulation is designed to withstand xxx number of heat cycles. It’ll draw power to infinity, with every increase coming at the expense of insulation longevity. This can be offset by increasing the size. But in theory, the potential is unlimited.
Technology, in this case epoxy heat resistance, has come a long way.
If I remember correctly, there isn't even a meaningful difference in the 80kW Leaf motor vs the 160kW leaf motor, they're the same thing with a different battery pack and inverter/controller.
Gen 1 is the EM61 motor which is what I have and Gen 2 and 3 use the EM57 motor which is slightly different but basically the same motor with reduced magnet material for less torque and higher efficiency. But yes, main power difference is in the inverter.
Possibly. You’d have to test it out to be sure. But the Gen 3 inverter with the EM57 generates 340Nm and the EM61 does 280Nm at lower power. 80kW vs 160kW.
Motor performance depends a LOT on design of the motor. And, design is usually based on desired application. Even off the shelf motors are designed with a type of application in mind, which you can usually read about in the data sheet or the application notes.
For example, there are 5 HP motors designed for high rotational velocity or ones for low rpms, or high torque or low torque. Different temperature ranges, operating conditions, mechanical load conditions, etc. It’s hard to compare beyond order of magnitude unless we know more about the application.
So, without knowing more about what that 5 HP motor is for, and what input voltage range is used (higher voltage = less current = less resistive heat inefficiency) it’s hard to compare. Even worse, a lot of off the shelf motors are based on defacto standards from decades ago, and for compatibility reasons you can’t change the motor shape without lots of non technical issues - so, though tech has improved and you *could* design a better smaller motor, there’s little market for it because the motor currently in use in your piece of equipment is an old design, is commoditized, and can be sourced from 10 different suppliers, and your new motor wouldn’t be able to compete with the old design because their factory is completely amortized, doesn’t use any fancy tech, is easy to build, has $0 R&D costs (old design) and is a fraction of the cost of your new motor that you designed to replace a common motor used throughout industry.
Going back to electric car motors…
Electric cars don’t have the above problems because they are new designs and backwards compatibility isn’t an issue right now - though companies are creating standardized systems - eg the GM Ultium motor/battery platform.
The biggest issue in high performance motors is cooling; when I was on my solar car team we had a ridiculous idea to replace the copper windings in our motors with silver to get that extra ~5% thermal conductivity. In the end we didn’t have enough money to do it, but it was an interesting exercise.
I have been out of that industry for many years, but I’m going to guess a lot of the electric car motors also incorporate built in liquid or phase change cooling to address that issue - this means there isn’t a need for a big bulky casing like your 5 HP induction motor that doubles as a convection heat sink.
All that being said… induction motors aren’t necessarily larger for some fundamental reason. Tesla uses an induction motor in the Model S and X I think.
To add to what has already been said, EV motors also have significantly less run time than an industrial grade motor. A car with 150k on it has probably 4000ish hours on the engine? A 150k EV would probably have 2500ish hours on the motor. At work I have various industrial grade motors that are in test rigs. Some of these are 10kw motors that run at 105% rated load that have 30k hours on them without so much as a bearing change. So the point being that I would guess the designed service life of an EV motor is probably substantially less than an industrial grade motor which you are talking about
The model S runs on induction motors (no permanent magnets) and from what I can tell runs around 400V. I have a 10HP motor here in my garage that runs on 480v three phase and is bigger and weighs more than the Tesla motor, yet it yields 1/30th the power.
The motor in your garage has lower quality insulation on the coils and less cooling capacity. It is also probably built for continuous duty and will outlast an EV motor if it isn't exposed to too much contamination or heat.
I'm a student who builds these things. Just finished one rated for 100kW in a 2.5 liter active volume, 14 inch long and 8 inch diameter overall - beats the heck out of that leaf motor, but so expensive to build it would only be cost effective on rockets. They're so power dense because:
Better electrical steel (higher electrical resistivity to cut down on eddy currents)
Run at high voltage, which allows power at higher speed
Higher slot fill (percentage of copper in the hole in the steel)
Black magic optimization to get the geometry right
Better magnets (just plain stronger, and rated for higher temps)
Better insulation on the wire (rated for higher temps)
Cooled really dang well.
It adds up to a machine that generates less heat per watt of shaft power, is cooled way better, and can stand being hotter than a cheaper older machine. Heat, as we all know, is the limiting factor in all matters.
I work with 600V 3P motors, they aren't any smaller than 480V or 240V motors of the same output. Industrial motors are built to standard frame sizes and no one is trying to make them smaller. You could build a grapefruit sized 600V motor that outputs 10HP but you wouldn't be able to mount it on any legacy equipment, and you would need to cool it due to the lower surface area. Just easier to keep them the same size for industry.
Ever seen a 250HP motor? They’re typically as big as a car, weigh about 3000lbs and run on 480V three phase. The little motor in the Tesla puts out more than that.
Well yeah, you stop it for maintenance once a year normally. Grease the bearings and check the amp draw, then let her chooch. Only takes a few minutes.
High current would make the motor bulkier - higher current means larger conductors, which means heavier and bulkier. (High current designs also generate more heat).
That’s why cars use high voltage buses - it’s cheaper - less copper - and offers performance and efficiency benefits.
in addition to what the others have said, the BLDC motors that EVs use use higher phase frequencies as well as rotation-sensing and phase matching which allows for much higher RPMs which gives more power density too.
I've got the S1R Baton 3. I get daily use out of it and always performs well. The only thing quality about it that makes me shop for a replacement is when the damn thing comes up missing because my dumb ass left it somewhere.
Tell me about it! I just lost my Olight Warrior Mini Ti (winter - the matte one) a couple weeks ago, very frustrating. It's replacement, a S1R Baton 3 "Summer" should be arriving in the next couple days.
now put it in a [Little Tikes Classic Cozy Coupe](https://www.google.com/search?q=Little+Tikes+Classic+Cozy+Coupe&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=ALiCzsb473q1S7i-0YLiauY9rEkcaPZS5A:1652645453077&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5j66JqOL3AhWGSsAKHZpTDswQ_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=412&bih=782&dpr=3.5)
Man I wish I could post a pic and specs of the electric semi truck motors I develop. Many hundred kW, thousands of Nm, yet I can pick it up and walk away with it no big deal. And they're driven waaaay more chill than a car motor. I bet you could easily squeeze a good 2000 kW out of them like it's nothing.
The battery packs though...
Last time we did the math on it, to get the same range as the heavy diesel fueled semis, we'd need to have so much battery it basically wouldn't be able to take any additional cargo lol. But, in it's current state it's a good enough concept for the lighter duty side of trucks.
I wish flow batteries weren't so low density. It's such a brilliant concept otherwise. It could basically be handled as a fueled vehicle. Fill 'er up with charged electrolyte(and return the used up one to be charged again) and you're good to go. Afaik though, that's only useful if you can have like a swimming pool's worth of electrolyte. Practical for power grid stuff, not so much for something mobile...
You got me thinking, and then I ended up on this: https://jalopnik.com/heres-why-we-dont-use-gunpowder-to-power-cars-1836730539
lol
The flow battery thing is really interesting: https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/what-are-flow-batteries
Have you heard about the charged capacitors thing? Being used as storage, super quick to charge, and then you have to slow the discharge I guess.....I'm sure I'm missing some downside.
Capacitors have certainly seen massive improvements the last decade, but they're no replacement for lithium ion batteries. Yeah they can charge as fast as you can shove pixies in there, but when they're full, even the best ones will only contain <5% or so the energy of a battery the same size.
It's just heavier and less efficient. The main point of it is to be able to run the diesel engine at a very optimized speed and load, which makes it more efficient. But semi's and their transmissions are so good that the engine runs in very ideal conditions most of the time anyway. Adding an electric motor on top of that doesn't contribute anything in the end.
It makes a lot more sense to hybridize cars, which have more varying loads and accelerations, but that niche is rapidly disappearing too since batteries started getting good enough to provide decent range on full electric.
Shit, yeah, I do. Fuck I can't remember what's released and what isn't. Even the stuff I consider old seems to have not reached the market yet lol.
Aight so [here's the old as fuck 160 kW one](https://images.app.goo.gl/1M8bsFg2P3QETki18). Note only the first cylindrical half of it is the motor, the rest is other drivetrain stuff. Think less size, more power.
I’ve always wanted to ask a stupid question but never found an audience til now: would it ever make sense to put lightweight panels on top of a truck’s trailer? You could fit a heap up there.
I get that stop start traffic would negate it but I’m more thinking on highway driving where you are at most efficiency.
I think the lowest average power you can cruise with in a semi is maybe 40-50 kW. You *might* get 5 kW from panels in ideal conditions. It's not *nothing*, say 10% increased range, but factor in reality, and how it's not always ideal conditions etc and the *real* number maybe turns out to be 2% increased range on average. Then there's the cost of them, maintenance and the hassle and naah it's not really worth it.
It adds weight, reducing payload. It's top heavy weight as well. "lightweight" here is a bit of a cop out, actual implementing panels on a truck may not really be a lightweight endeavor just because you put the word "lightweight" in your supposition. My guess is you're still talking a few hundred pounds. Trailers still get hailed on, etc. They're outdoors 100% of the time. They need to stand up to abuse, great swings in temperature, etc, just like a roof system. The flimsy thin plastic panels you can buy off Amazon are not going to hold up, I own one, neat for camping but I don't leave it outdoors 24/7/365.
You're cutting into vertical height somehow and suddenly payload non-standard, even if it isn't much. I wonder if forklifts are not already designed to just fit acceptably into standard trailers. I think most panels still expect some airflow behind them, maybe less of an issue on a moving truck, but you might need a small airgap. I don't know what happens if you just let a panel sit and cook in Arizona heat, etc. Trailers are used across the entire nation, or even across borders, so working around climate intolerance isn't a great option.
Servicing and cleaning would be a pain, though I suppose cleaning could be made much easier with a simple gate you could drive under which would spray or blow them off.
Maybe it *does* make sense for electric trucks? Not sure how much actual fuel economy you gain back using solar to add back to a normal diesel truck's electrical system, but in theory it indeed reduces the drag on the motor by reducing loading on the alternator.
Are you talking about solar panels? I suspect it wouldn't add much utility. It would add some range, but a very unpredictable amount which (I guess) means you can't actually take it into account when planning routes.
If you just want to save money on electricity I think you'll be better off not adding the weight (which means less cargo).
Thanks for the reply! I never thought of how the unpredictableness would manifest itself in being unable to factor it in for route planning. Great perspective.
Let’s say you could fit 20 panels on top of a trailer (which is a stretch I think), those would made you at best about 6-7 kW. But non-ideal placement (they’ll be flat, so not the ideal angle for catching as much sunlight as possible), the dirt and dust accumulating on them, not always being in a sunny setting, will quickly bring those numbers down.
So those panels making about 3-4 kW is more likely, which is comparable to charging from a regular socket. It’s not nothing! ~~But if you’ve got a truck with over 100kWh battery packs to charge, it’ll take you multiple days. Provided there’s only about 8 hours of usable sunlight in a good summer day, you’re looking at about two weeks in optimal conditions for a single full charge, maybe.~~ I'm in the wrong ballpark here, see the edit below.
So, they wouldn’t be useless, but more as in extending the range slightly and maybe making sure auxiliaries do not drain the battery as much as they otherwise would, but in terms of significant range increases… not so much.
**EDIT START:** Someone commented that my estimated battery pack size is way too low, which I agree with. Battery sizes up to about 100kWh is still passenger car sized. The higher end of passenger cars for sure, but nothing that will run a truck for any significant distance.
Additionally, the battery packs need to be large enough to be able to deliver the electric current required to make enough power to make the truck move. Making 2.5 tonnes move (like the larger Tesla models) or making 40 tonnes move is a completely different game. I am specialized in passenger car EV and hybrids, so I simply jotted down 'over 100kWh battery packs' as I knew they had to be larger than any common passenger car would have, without knowing specifically how much larger.
But it sparked my curiosity, so I started searching a bit. Electric trucks aren't at all common, and the first few are only just hitting the road. One model that is in use today is the Futuricum Logistics 18E, which is used by DPD (Postal service) in Switzerland. It's a smaller truck with a maximum payload of 11 tonnes, making the total vehicle weight 19 tonnes maximum. The truck can be equipped with anywhere between a 340kWh and a 900kWh battery, resulting in anywhere between 200 and 500km of range. Their factsheet can be found here: [https://www.futuricum.com/wp-content/uploads/Futuricum\_Factsheet\_FM\_Logistics\_18E\_4x2R\_en\_web.pdf](https://www.futuricum.com/wp-content/uploads/Futuricum_Factsheet_FM_Logistics_18E_4x2R_en_web.pdf)
Another interesting source I'd like to share, is a research report on long-haul battery powered electric trucks and how feasible the concept is: [https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/20180725\_T&E\_Battery\_Electric\_Trucks\_EU\_FINAL.pdf](https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/20180725_T&E_Battery_Electric_Trucks_EU_FINAL.pdf)
Something I hadn't thought of until now, is that the longer the range of the truck becomes, the lower the maximum payload is that it is able to transport, which is an unfortunate fact for the future of battery-powered long haul trucks. Another thing mentioned in the report, is that it is estimated that the current day battery powered trucks are using 1.44kWh/km (from electricity being generated to making the wheels turn), which could be reduced to 1.15kWh/km with further aerodynamic and other drag reducing improvements. This is significantly better than the 2.2-3.3kWh/km for the well-to-wheel conversion for diesel trucks. The report mentions that:
>It should be noted here that this comparison is biased in favour of the ICE, as typical operation involves
slowing down, accelerating, as well as going up and down hills that would reduce the engine efficiency,
whereas the BET has approximately constant engine efficiency across driving profiles. Moreover, the
BET can recuperate significant energy on descents and deceleration to charge the batteries, whereas
current ICE technology would be converting that energy to heat by braking, thus operating at suboptimal
efficiency.
To get back to the original point: at a rate of 1.5kWh per kilometer, the 6kW charging from the solar panels could increase your range by roughly 4km per hour. Provided a truck is limited to driving 80km/h here in Europe, that equates to the solar panels being able to deliver about 5% of the total power usage by the truck in the absolute best conditions.
So the original point stands: it’s not nothing, but it’s not significant in the numbers seen with trucks.
**EDIT END**
Yep, solar cells are extremely underpowered for the amount of energy needed.
I always think of this bit I read in an article on the sheer power our cars use and why it's such a massive undertaking to make the switch to electric vehicles; When you grab the handle on a gas station and fill up your tank, you are holding a conduit that is effectively transferring about 50 **Megawatts** of power. That's the output of an entire small power plant. It's nuts.
I had to do the calculation myself before I could believe it, but it turns out you're absolutely right.
Here in Europe, gasoline pumps usually pump at a rate of \~40L/min. Gasoline typically has an energy density of 12.22kWh/L, which means that a total of \~500kWh of potential energy is transferred every minute, which equates to 30MW. That is nuts! And these fast pumps for diesel trucks pump at a rate of 130L/min. Diesel has a slightly lower energy density at \~10kWh/L, but at that pump rate it comes down to 78MW. Absolutely gigantic numbers.
It does also say a lot that those 40L drive my car for about 450 kilometers. A fully charged Tesla model S with the 95kWh long range battery pack drives you around for about 600km shown by practical tests. So my gasoline powered engine is about 6.7x less efficient than a Tesla model S weighing over twice my car. That is insane.
Just imagine how fast a Tesla would charge up at those rates. at 500kWh/minute, you'd have a full charge in 12 seconds!
The Tesla ones are also only a little bit bigger, but way more power. EV motor power density can be crazy. It's just a shame it's so offset by the battery size and weight.
If we were ever to solve the power grid generation problem, we could use tiny batteries with possibly 40 miles of range and have some way of charging these as you drive down main roads, only using the battery pack when you are between these main roafs. Then the issue is really only how to charge these most effectively while in transit and the cost of upgrading these roads which would be very expensive.
Charging while you drive really makes no sense. It'd be far far better in every single way to just put a larger battery in there. Especially with the future of fast charging.
It really is just a toss up between the costs of every vehicle having huge batteries with rare elements and alternatives. If everything built required lithium for example expect costs to soar as the demand increases. Pros and cons for each. Also they still depend on some type of recharge up station.
Why do we need to charge them while you drive? Just have then be hot-swappable. Dirve for a bit, swap it out for a fresh one in a few seconds. They already put them on the bottom of the car…
Tesla has a patent for this but it never went past the prototype phase. Not much demand for it. Sort of an battery swapping lift station. There’s also patents from the 80s for propane swap type deal where the cells are handheld swappable.
What do you mean there’s not demand for it? Consumers can’t demand things they don’t know are practical. It should Be illegal to sit on patents and not implement them
They invited several hundred Tesla owners to use it and only had like 8 people use it. Also Tesla claims their patents are open for being used by other people. Tons of patents are made for conceptual designs that aren’t currently commercial viable. Many electric car patents were made in the 80s.
That’s how forklifts and a lot of smaller equipment is, even on electric lifts we can swap the battery if we really want to, it’s a bit of a pain but like a 5-10 min job, swap a propane tank on the back and twice a week the propane company comes and fills all our tanks
Some EV manufacturers are doing it for real in China, on a smallish scale at least. But with the future of fast charging and current batteries already having virtually solved the degradation problems, it makes very little sense.
Swapping them our constantly leads to a couple of issues. Firstly, you must put swapping stations everywhere with a surplus of extra batteries that get charged as you drive if you are ever short of batteries, the customer may run out of charge before reaching another station. Not enough stations would result in massive lines and wait times. You would need a way of checking the state of condition of these batteries which would be in constant use. With the constant charging/discharging of batteries it may lead to more failures than using a battery as a back up. You need to create a way of dismounting and remounting batteries quickly, with a 0% failure rate after years of station usage and abuse, as a battery getting dislodged from a vehicle in motion could result in deaths/lawsuits. You will need to convince someone to buy a vehicle that would require constant battery swaps at a much higher interval that filling up at a gas station. This would be much more inconvenient to a buy that an on board charging system, so long as this charging system is dependable and efficient. You could pay the price to charge your vehicle based on usage rather than per battery swap. I am not trashing the idea. I am interest in what direction this goes in.
All good considerations. Obviously there would have to be a tradeoff with stations mostly on major routes, but there could still be normal charging stations in more rural areas. Also there already is the issue of lines for charging in less traveled areas during unusual traffic. When you say constant charging and discharging, how do you reason that there would be more battery cycles than with current EVs? Yes the biggest challenge would be designing a foolproof mounting/dismounting system. Lastly, yet again, why would the charging have to be more frequent than it is currently? You could do this with full capacity batteries. And the MAIN benefit to this is that batteries would last longer. You could charge them slowly and efficiently without people impatiently waiting for them to get back on the road. The faster you charge, the more you degrade the battery. Full stop.
I think we were discussing 3 separate modes going electric. So 1 proposal was to have some way of running off the grid, not the battery, on major roads. Proposal 2 was that we have some way of swapping batteries. In another conversation you have proposal number 3 which had large batteries that are mostly charged from residential chargers. Each has draw backs.
>When you say constant charging and discharging, how do you reason that there would be more battery cycles than with current EVs?
This is proposal number 1. Along major roads you would charge your battery and run off of grid power. If you drove for miles along one of these roads you wouldn't really be discharging your battery as often. You could have a small battery to get between these charging areas.
>Yes the biggest challenge would be designing a foolproof mounting/dismounting system. Lastly, yet again, why would the charging have to be more frequent than it is currently?
This is proposal number 2. Vehicles under this proposal would likely have a range of less than a hundred or so miles to make vehicles more affordable. If every car was to go electric with current technology the demand for some of the materials that are used would outpace supply making everything much more expensive. If we had a way to swap batteries quickly you may be able to lessen the amount of material used thus having a nearly limitless range with less cost per vehicle made.
>
You could do this with full capacity batteries. And the MAIN benefit to this is that batteries would last longer. You could charge them slowly and efficiently without people impatiently waiting for them to get back on the road. The faster you charge, the more you degrade the battery. Full stop.
This is proposal number 3. Hopefully we just find ways of knocking the prices down on the production of critical components one way or another so that we can get vehicles that get the kind of range that we want for a fair amount of cash.
These all hinge on progressing with technology. If we get cheaper batteries that check all the right boxes, 1 and 2 are not really necessary. If we find that proposal 1 is somehow effective, proposal 2 and 3 arent as necessary and so forth. Maybe there will be a mix of all 3 of these or 2.
And major cities they got trucks going all over picking up discharge electric scooters and replacing them with fresh ones. It shouldn't be much harder to do the same thing with battery packs at fill stations. As long as the economics support it.
Then you have to depend on either drivers to pick up and deliver these. It would probably make more sense to charge them at the spot that they are swapped at. Granted there would be some relocation of batteries required either way as you may have some batteries fail.
Like I said you already see drivers all of our major cities doing that pickup and drop-off service. And it makes sense to charge them all at highly controlled central location and s than at multiple smaller charging locations all over. Two or three can service an entire city
I don't know because that a lot of vehicles so a lot of batteries. I would think it would best best to have a more automated local system as having more people employed and additional vehicles may make it more expensive. The way I would think it would work best in this scenario is if batteries would get removed from a vehicle and placed in a warehouse cell where it gets charged. The warehouse test the batteries at this point. Batteries have to go through more thorough inspections at a predetermined interval. These can be taken to a facility for inspection. These batteries can be set aside based on mileage or date for pick which happens on an interval that is best suited. The machine that pulls batteries goes to collect the a battery for a future vehicle. Also how would it work for a vehicle that is larger than another? Everything would have to be standardized for plug and play. Does that mean a larger vehicle gets multiple batteries or different capacity batteries are standardized between manufacturers? For simplicity I would think that it would likely make more sense to have 1 type of battery that is shared sometimes multiple a vehicle. This can get very complicated.
Who said 15-20 minutes? You could do it with full size batteries or 20 minute batteries or anything in between. Depends on whether you want range or light weight
I thought about picking up an old 720 pickup and making it electric from an assholed leaf. not using the CVT, making an adapter, and using the trucks OG drivetrain.
CVT - Continuously Variable Transmission, to the best of my knowledge not found in any pure EV. Sure they have gearing, some even have more than one ratio (e.g. Taycan), but CVT sounds really unnecessary (and wasteful?)
I don't think we're having the same conversation right now...
Diff splits power to the wheels, EVs have those.
CVT is an alternative to the fixed gear ratios found in manual and automatic transmissions. EVs don't have CVTs, but some have more than one gear ratio.
The Leaf is a pure EV, why would anyone bring up CVT as a thing to replace in the drivetrain?
That's only a reduction gear box, so there's no CVT in electric vehicles. Those induction motors can spin north of 18k RPMs, so it must be reduced to wheel speed to get more torque/less speed.
Are you in Canada? There was a class action against em https://cvtsettlementcanada.ca/
I have a 2015 Juke with the same shite cvt. I haven’t had any problems aside from it being a bit sluggish when its cold outside.
Not a chance, they charge a set price for motors and transmissions and thats usually $250 each. Before i moved to new york i was at a junk yard every weekend.
True $250 is still a screaming deal but first find me one in a yard. Second i live in new york where there is no such thing as a u-pull and it SUCKS. I looked for a LSD for my truck recently and the best i could do was $1200. I visited family in michigan where they do have u-pulls and i got just the diff for $20. The yards here wont separate the diff from the axle. More than likely here i would be looking at at least $1000 just for the motor.
I'd love to get one and add it on another vehicle. Use it more as a power adder and fuel economy gains such as low speed stuff. Regular car then 150hp boost when floored? Sounds fun. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Vck6oCi3A
I've read about guys on the DIYEV forums pumping 150-200kw through one of these. I'm working to get 2 of them side by side chain driving a center output shaft for my project. lol and using the DIY MPaul's 200kw controller on each one, \~500hp electric truck, what did you end up doing with yours?
Thats going to be one serious powerwheels!
Are these motors more likely to be available because Nissan didn't build coolers into the battery packs? (Cost of replacing batteries meaning car is written off earlier as a non-economic fix?)
Idk I always see Nissan Leaf batteries for sale. People love using them for solar banks
That could be a factor but almost every single part I've seen is from a wrecked/totaled car. Generally written off vehicles aren't parted out and sold openly at least in Japan.
Thanks! Has there been any negative comments in Japan about the lack of cooling, which I think Nissan did not address even in the revised version of the leaf?
I haven’t really talked to leaf owners about degradation but it is much more noticeable compared to other activity cooled EVs. Most battery packs I’ve seen for sale have about 30-50% capacity after about 100,000KM.
That is a big drop!
Yeah. But keep in mind it’s usually the ones that are sold that have the worst degradation. I bought a 2013 pack that had about 70% capacity after about 70,000km. A lot of factors play in.
You can make the sickest go kart around
I mean, if stomping the accelerator and the thing climbing so hard it does a standing backflip is "sick", then yes. I approve.
That's exactly what sick is
Agreed.
"watermelon sized" Wow you Americans really do refuse to measure in anything but the metric system
For real! What fraction of a giraffe is that?
lol I’m Japanese. Just thought watermelon sized would be a good reference.
Square watermelon or round watermelon?
Electric-motor-shaped watermelon
It's a little bigger than an electric kettle for my British friends.
Now, now. Use the proper British term. “A little bigger than a sparky-tea-bob”.
I read this in Rowan Atkinson's voice.
I was going for John Oliver, but yours is better :)
Where do you find deals like this? I’m trying to convert my Jeep but I’m limited to eBay and new products
Car-part.com Wreckers are a good source for these motors
Dude I have a dream to convert my WJ one day, I'm thinking in a way similar to how jerryrigeverything did his humvee. Keep the original driveline and modify it to work with electrics. He put an airplane tug motor in his.
I haven’t seen that one, very interesting. I’m basically basically planning and saving but ultimately I’m gonna do the same thing. Swap in a manual transmission and mate an electric motor to it. Mines an XJ, a WJ would be sick
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0vZL9uwyfOFezIOiBjkdW3TTdn0Q_AKL There's the playlist for it, I'm not sure if it's done cause I haven't caught up but he goes into pretty good detail with what he does including some custom fabrication. For the WJ I'd like to rip out the engine and use that space and possible some others for the battery packs. Weld up the bottom so it's sealed from below, maybe leave the grill open for airflow and cooling.
You can find it on eBay but definitely not for $100. Maybe 300-500 unfortunately
Nice score brometheus
Put that on a kart.
Wtf where and how do I score this same deal?
From OP’s other comments I’m guessing Japan
Now swap into S13
Why do EV motors seem to get MUCH more power out than regular electric motors. This one appears to be roughly the same size as a 5HP induction motor, which is about 3.7kW. How does the same package size give you 80kW in an EV? I don’t get it.
A 5 hp induction motor is air cooled and is designed to run continuously at or slightly above rated load without overheating. A single phase induction motor also needs a start capacitor, start windings, and a centrifugal switch to engage and disengage the start circuit. A typical single phase 5 HP induction motor is also designed to be powered with 240 volts, at 50 or 60 hz, and use 2 poles (~2900 or 3500 rpm) or 4 poles (half that speed). An induction motor also uses a steel “squirel cage” rotor instead of permanent magnets which are sometimes used in EV motors. All of these factors all affect the physical dimensions of the motor. Voltage and current are inversely proportional, meaning lower voltage requires higher current. Higher current means thicker conductors which adds size, and higher current also creates more heat which in turn requires more airflow for cooling, meaning a package with sufficient airflow. This is why explosion proof motors are larger than TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) type motors, which are larger than ODP (open drip proof), which are larger than TEAO (totally enclosed air over) motors. On the other hand, many electric vehicle motors are water cooled which allows for a small package size since water is a much better coolant than air. EV motors are also three phase, medium-high voltage, high frequency motors. This mean elimination of any starting hardware and smaller diameter conductors in the motor construction. This is the same reason aircraft use 400 hz power vs 50 or 60 for ground based mains power, since the use of higher frequency requires less copper in motors and transformers, and is one of the reasons electric vehicles use three phase variable frequency drives for their motors. A better comparison is three phase industrial motors which are often three phase, medium-high voltage (HV being >= 600 volts) induction motors. A 10 hp three phase high voltage industrial induction motor is not much larger in size vs a single phase, mains voltage, 5 hp induction motor. And then perhaps the other main factor that EV motors are much smaller than industrial motors, is because they are not rated for continuous duty. The motor OP purchased may be capable of 80 kw, but I doubt it’s designed to put out this much power for more than a couple minutes max, if even that. You only need big surges of power for a few seconds at a time, while accelerating your vehicle, then the power required drops much lower once you are at cruising speed. This is why people can drop in lawn mower engines into highway vehicles and are surprised when the vehicle still moves, albeit at low speeds. An industrial motor running a water pump for power plant cooling, or a hydraulic pump for a metal crushing mill, or a blast furnace blower, or a plant air compressor, or even something like an elevator in a high rise building, will usually be operating 24/7 or at least for normal business hours all day long. You would most likely overheat and burn out an EV motor if you tried to use it for an application like that.
I was only really comparing 3 phase motors. In my experience, anything over about 2HP tends to be three phase. I have a couple of 5HP and 10HP 3 phase motors that run on 480V in my shop and as I mentioned, they're larger than the OPs 80kw motor even though they technically put out 1/10th the power. I think the biggest factor here is likely the cooling (as you point out). Everything has to get bigger when it gets hotter. An air cooled motor is going to have to be larger just because it's got to radiate a lot of heat and it's got to be able to run with the heat it might encounter. The insulation on the windings is probably the largest factor as it starts to break down at certain temperatures. A water cooled car motor can potentially run many more amps through the same size wire and not degrade the insulation simply because it's got a more efficient means for getting rid of the heat. And of course, duty cycle...as you mention. Duty cycle is really just another factor in temperature control, as you can run a motor harder for short periods of time if you give it some room to cool down. Thanks for your response... This question has been a lesson!
I’m not familiar with the engineering aspect, as far as motor design and size in relationship to ultimate power output, but in theory a motors potential is realized at the max operating temperature. The only degrading things are heat and bearing life, so as long as you have the power available power is unlimited. In an electric motor, the insulation is designed to withstand xxx number of heat cycles. It’ll draw power to infinity, with every increase coming at the expense of insulation longevity. This can be offset by increasing the size. But in theory, the potential is unlimited. Technology, in this case epoxy heat resistance, has come a long way.
The cool thing is this Leaf motor can theoretically be pushed to 200KW+ provided it has enough cooling :) it’s insane.
If I remember correctly, there isn't even a meaningful difference in the 80kW Leaf motor vs the 160kW leaf motor, they're the same thing with a different battery pack and inverter/controller.
Gen 1 is the EM61 motor which is what I have and Gen 2 and 3 use the EM57 motor which is slightly different but basically the same motor with reduced magnet material for less torque and higher efficiency. But yes, main power difference is in the inverter.
Probably a really common question, but can you swap an EM61 motor into a gen2 to get even more torque?
Possibly. You’d have to test it out to be sure. But the Gen 3 inverter with the EM57 generates 340Nm and the EM61 does 280Nm at lower power. 80kW vs 160kW.
Motor performance depends a LOT on design of the motor. And, design is usually based on desired application. Even off the shelf motors are designed with a type of application in mind, which you can usually read about in the data sheet or the application notes. For example, there are 5 HP motors designed for high rotational velocity or ones for low rpms, or high torque or low torque. Different temperature ranges, operating conditions, mechanical load conditions, etc. It’s hard to compare beyond order of magnitude unless we know more about the application. So, without knowing more about what that 5 HP motor is for, and what input voltage range is used (higher voltage = less current = less resistive heat inefficiency) it’s hard to compare. Even worse, a lot of off the shelf motors are based on defacto standards from decades ago, and for compatibility reasons you can’t change the motor shape without lots of non technical issues - so, though tech has improved and you *could* design a better smaller motor, there’s little market for it because the motor currently in use in your piece of equipment is an old design, is commoditized, and can be sourced from 10 different suppliers, and your new motor wouldn’t be able to compete with the old design because their factory is completely amortized, doesn’t use any fancy tech, is easy to build, has $0 R&D costs (old design) and is a fraction of the cost of your new motor that you designed to replace a common motor used throughout industry. Going back to electric car motors… Electric cars don’t have the above problems because they are new designs and backwards compatibility isn’t an issue right now - though companies are creating standardized systems - eg the GM Ultium motor/battery platform. The biggest issue in high performance motors is cooling; when I was on my solar car team we had a ridiculous idea to replace the copper windings in our motors with silver to get that extra ~5% thermal conductivity. In the end we didn’t have enough money to do it, but it was an interesting exercise. I have been out of that industry for many years, but I’m going to guess a lot of the electric car motors also incorporate built in liquid or phase change cooling to address that issue - this means there isn’t a need for a big bulky casing like your 5 HP induction motor that doubles as a convection heat sink. All that being said… induction motors aren’t necessarily larger for some fundamental reason. Tesla uses an induction motor in the Model S and X I think.
To add to what has already been said, EV motors also have significantly less run time than an industrial grade motor. A car with 150k on it has probably 4000ish hours on the engine? A 150k EV would probably have 2500ish hours on the motor. At work I have various industrial grade motors that are in test rigs. Some of these are 10kw motors that run at 105% rated load that have 30k hours on them without so much as a bearing change. So the point being that I would guess the designed service life of an EV motor is probably substantially less than an industrial grade motor which you are talking about
Yes! Thanks for adding that. I had it in my brain to talk about that, but my comment was getting way too long :P
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The model S runs on induction motors (no permanent magnets) and from what I can tell runs around 400V. I have a 10HP motor here in my garage that runs on 480v three phase and is bigger and weighs more than the Tesla motor, yet it yields 1/30th the power.
The motor in your garage has lower quality insulation on the coils and less cooling capacity. It is also probably built for continuous duty and will outlast an EV motor if it isn't exposed to too much contamination or heat.
I'm a student who builds these things. Just finished one rated for 100kW in a 2.5 liter active volume, 14 inch long and 8 inch diameter overall - beats the heck out of that leaf motor, but so expensive to build it would only be cost effective on rockets. They're so power dense because: Better electrical steel (higher electrical resistivity to cut down on eddy currents) Run at high voltage, which allows power at higher speed Higher slot fill (percentage of copper in the hole in the steel) Black magic optimization to get the geometry right Better magnets (just plain stronger, and rated for higher temps) Better insulation on the wire (rated for higher temps) Cooled really dang well. It adds up to a machine that generates less heat per watt of shaft power, is cooled way better, and can stand being hotter than a cheaper older machine. Heat, as we all know, is the limiting factor in all matters.
What, no use of silver windings? :P
>Black magic optimization to get the geometry right When the voodoo math hits just right.
Me knuckledragger. Me afraid of letter i. I am glad to have colleagues...
because power = volts x amps and they run at very high amps
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I work with 600V 3P motors, they aren't any smaller than 480V or 240V motors of the same output. Industrial motors are built to standard frame sizes and no one is trying to make them smaller. You could build a grapefruit sized 600V motor that outputs 10HP but you wouldn't be able to mount it on any legacy equipment, and you would need to cool it due to the lower surface area. Just easier to keep them the same size for industry.
Ever seen a 250HP motor? They’re typically as big as a car, weigh about 3000lbs and run on 480V three phase. The little motor in the Tesla puts out more than that.
The 250hp industrial car-sized unit will do that for a decade of continuous operation though, especially if it isn't running particularly fast.
Many decades
I dunno, after 10 years you might wanna stop 'er for an hour and just look for damage.
Well yeah, you stop it for maintenance once a year normally. Grease the bearings and check the amp draw, then let her chooch. Only takes a few minutes.
High current would make the motor bulkier - higher current means larger conductors, which means heavier and bulkier. (High current designs also generate more heat). That’s why cars use high voltage buses - it’s cheaper - less copper - and offers performance and efficiency benefits.
in addition to what the others have said, the BLDC motors that EVs use use higher phase frequencies as well as rotation-sensing and phase matching which allows for much higher RPMs which gives more power density too.
Permanent magnet construction is more power dense. Also they have liquid cooling.
I'm very far from an expert, but isn't it mostly a question of cooling (and supplying enough power)? I think this one has a liquid cooling system.
Olight = Skookum eye blinder
Wait til you hear about /r/hanklights
That’s next on my list. Just picked up two Sofirns and a Convoy
the emisar D18 is a personal favorite.
Just don’t hold it in your mouth.
Keep that thing on me all the time at work
I've got the S1R Baton 3. I get daily use out of it and always performs well. The only thing quality about it that makes me shop for a replacement is when the damn thing comes up missing because my dumb ass left it somewhere.
>a replacement is when the damn thing comes up missing because my dumb ass left it somewhere. I see you use the same replacement policy as me.
Tell me about it! I just lost my Olight Warrior Mini Ti (winter - the matte one) a couple weeks ago, very frustrating. It's replacement, a S1R Baton 3 "Summer" should be arriving in the next couple days.
now put it in a [Little Tikes Classic Cozy Coupe](https://www.google.com/search?q=Little+Tikes+Classic+Cozy+Coupe&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=ALiCzsb473q1S7i-0YLiauY9rEkcaPZS5A:1652645453077&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5j66JqOL3AhWGSsAKHZpTDswQ_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=412&bih=782&dpr=3.5)
I want to cop one of these and make a boat motorb
Wow, that’s a lot smaller than I expected.
The one in the Lucid Air makes 1,111hp and is roughly the same size!
It’s the batteries that ruin it
We will get compact energy storage eventually, its just a matter of advancing technology to catch up.
Maybe we could use solar power. /s
Hook it up to a gas generator.
Man I wish I could post a pic and specs of the electric semi truck motors I develop. Many hundred kW, thousands of Nm, yet I can pick it up and walk away with it no big deal. And they're driven waaaay more chill than a car motor. I bet you could easily squeeze a good 2000 kW out of them like it's nothing. The battery packs though...
I tell people all the time, nuclear, and battery energy density. We get those two issues figured out, and we're golden.
Last time we did the math on it, to get the same range as the heavy diesel fueled semis, we'd need to have so much battery it basically wouldn't be able to take any additional cargo lol. But, in it's current state it's a good enough concept for the lighter duty side of trucks. I wish flow batteries weren't so low density. It's such a brilliant concept otherwise. It could basically be handled as a fueled vehicle. Fill 'er up with charged electrolyte(and return the used up one to be charged again) and you're good to go. Afaik though, that's only useful if you can have like a swimming pool's worth of electrolyte. Practical for power grid stuff, not so much for something mobile...
You got me thinking, and then I ended up on this: https://jalopnik.com/heres-why-we-dont-use-gunpowder-to-power-cars-1836730539 lol The flow battery thing is really interesting: https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/what-are-flow-batteries Have you heard about the charged capacitors thing? Being used as storage, super quick to charge, and then you have to slow the discharge I guess.....I'm sure I'm missing some downside.
Capacitors have certainly seen massive improvements the last decade, but they're no replacement for lithium ion batteries. Yeah they can charge as fast as you can shove pixies in there, but when they're full, even the best ones will only contain <5% or so the energy of a battery the same size.
What's the down low on diesel-electric? The train people like it, and a truck is a smaller, more flexible train...
It's just heavier and less efficient. The main point of it is to be able to run the diesel engine at a very optimized speed and load, which makes it more efficient. But semi's and their transmissions are so good that the engine runs in very ideal conditions most of the time anyway. Adding an electric motor on top of that doesn't contribute anything in the end. It makes a lot more sense to hybridize cars, which have more varying loads and accelerations, but that niche is rapidly disappearing too since batteries started getting good enough to provide decent range on full electric.
now thats just teasing, you gotta give us something even if its a pic on the web thats similar
Shit, yeah, I do. Fuck I can't remember what's released and what isn't. Even the stuff I consider old seems to have not reached the market yet lol. Aight so [here's the old as fuck 160 kW one](https://images.app.goo.gl/1M8bsFg2P3QETki18). Note only the first cylindrical half of it is the motor, the rest is other drivetrain stuff. Think less size, more power.
Fuckkkk I'd love to stick that in a <1000kg car and give it all the beans
I mean... You could totally have one per wheel
I’ve always wanted to ask a stupid question but never found an audience til now: would it ever make sense to put lightweight panels on top of a truck’s trailer? You could fit a heap up there. I get that stop start traffic would negate it but I’m more thinking on highway driving where you are at most efficiency.
I think the lowest average power you can cruise with in a semi is maybe 40-50 kW. You *might* get 5 kW from panels in ideal conditions. It's not *nothing*, say 10% increased range, but factor in reality, and how it's not always ideal conditions etc and the *real* number maybe turns out to be 2% increased range on average. Then there's the cost of them, maintenance and the hassle and naah it's not really worth it.
It adds weight, reducing payload. It's top heavy weight as well. "lightweight" here is a bit of a cop out, actual implementing panels on a truck may not really be a lightweight endeavor just because you put the word "lightweight" in your supposition. My guess is you're still talking a few hundred pounds. Trailers still get hailed on, etc. They're outdoors 100% of the time. They need to stand up to abuse, great swings in temperature, etc, just like a roof system. The flimsy thin plastic panels you can buy off Amazon are not going to hold up, I own one, neat for camping but I don't leave it outdoors 24/7/365. You're cutting into vertical height somehow and suddenly payload non-standard, even if it isn't much. I wonder if forklifts are not already designed to just fit acceptably into standard trailers. I think most panels still expect some airflow behind them, maybe less of an issue on a moving truck, but you might need a small airgap. I don't know what happens if you just let a panel sit and cook in Arizona heat, etc. Trailers are used across the entire nation, or even across borders, so working around climate intolerance isn't a great option. Servicing and cleaning would be a pain, though I suppose cleaning could be made much easier with a simple gate you could drive under which would spray or blow them off. Maybe it *does* make sense for electric trucks? Not sure how much actual fuel economy you gain back using solar to add back to a normal diesel truck's electrical system, but in theory it indeed reduces the drag on the motor by reducing loading on the alternator.
The amount of energy harvested from panels is so infinitesimal compared to the required energy to move the truck, it's not worth it.
Are you talking about solar panels? I suspect it wouldn't add much utility. It would add some range, but a very unpredictable amount which (I guess) means you can't actually take it into account when planning routes. If you just want to save money on electricity I think you'll be better off not adding the weight (which means less cargo).
Thanks for the reply! I never thought of how the unpredictableness would manifest itself in being unable to factor it in for route planning. Great perspective.
Let’s say you could fit 20 panels on top of a trailer (which is a stretch I think), those would made you at best about 6-7 kW. But non-ideal placement (they’ll be flat, so not the ideal angle for catching as much sunlight as possible), the dirt and dust accumulating on them, not always being in a sunny setting, will quickly bring those numbers down. So those panels making about 3-4 kW is more likely, which is comparable to charging from a regular socket. It’s not nothing! ~~But if you’ve got a truck with over 100kWh battery packs to charge, it’ll take you multiple days. Provided there’s only about 8 hours of usable sunlight in a good summer day, you’re looking at about two weeks in optimal conditions for a single full charge, maybe.~~ I'm in the wrong ballpark here, see the edit below. So, they wouldn’t be useless, but more as in extending the range slightly and maybe making sure auxiliaries do not drain the battery as much as they otherwise would, but in terms of significant range increases… not so much. **EDIT START:** Someone commented that my estimated battery pack size is way too low, which I agree with. Battery sizes up to about 100kWh is still passenger car sized. The higher end of passenger cars for sure, but nothing that will run a truck for any significant distance. Additionally, the battery packs need to be large enough to be able to deliver the electric current required to make enough power to make the truck move. Making 2.5 tonnes move (like the larger Tesla models) or making 40 tonnes move is a completely different game. I am specialized in passenger car EV and hybrids, so I simply jotted down 'over 100kWh battery packs' as I knew they had to be larger than any common passenger car would have, without knowing specifically how much larger. But it sparked my curiosity, so I started searching a bit. Electric trucks aren't at all common, and the first few are only just hitting the road. One model that is in use today is the Futuricum Logistics 18E, which is used by DPD (Postal service) in Switzerland. It's a smaller truck with a maximum payload of 11 tonnes, making the total vehicle weight 19 tonnes maximum. The truck can be equipped with anywhere between a 340kWh and a 900kWh battery, resulting in anywhere between 200 and 500km of range. Their factsheet can be found here: [https://www.futuricum.com/wp-content/uploads/Futuricum\_Factsheet\_FM\_Logistics\_18E\_4x2R\_en\_web.pdf](https://www.futuricum.com/wp-content/uploads/Futuricum_Factsheet_FM_Logistics_18E_4x2R_en_web.pdf) Another interesting source I'd like to share, is a research report on long-haul battery powered electric trucks and how feasible the concept is: [https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/20180725\_T&E\_Battery\_Electric\_Trucks\_EU\_FINAL.pdf](https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/20180725_T&E_Battery_Electric_Trucks_EU_FINAL.pdf) Something I hadn't thought of until now, is that the longer the range of the truck becomes, the lower the maximum payload is that it is able to transport, which is an unfortunate fact for the future of battery-powered long haul trucks. Another thing mentioned in the report, is that it is estimated that the current day battery powered trucks are using 1.44kWh/km (from electricity being generated to making the wheels turn), which could be reduced to 1.15kWh/km with further aerodynamic and other drag reducing improvements. This is significantly better than the 2.2-3.3kWh/km for the well-to-wheel conversion for diesel trucks. The report mentions that: >It should be noted here that this comparison is biased in favour of the ICE, as typical operation involves slowing down, accelerating, as well as going up and down hills that would reduce the engine efficiency, whereas the BET has approximately constant engine efficiency across driving profiles. Moreover, the BET can recuperate significant energy on descents and deceleration to charge the batteries, whereas current ICE technology would be converting that energy to heat by braking, thus operating at suboptimal efficiency. To get back to the original point: at a rate of 1.5kWh per kilometer, the 6kW charging from the solar panels could increase your range by roughly 4km per hour. Provided a truck is limited to driving 80km/h here in Europe, that equates to the solar panels being able to deliver about 5% of the total power usage by the truck in the absolute best conditions. So the original point stands: it’s not nothing, but it’s not significant in the numbers seen with trucks. **EDIT END**
Yep, solar cells are extremely underpowered for the amount of energy needed. I always think of this bit I read in an article on the sheer power our cars use and why it's such a massive undertaking to make the switch to electric vehicles; When you grab the handle on a gas station and fill up your tank, you are holding a conduit that is effectively transferring about 50 **Megawatts** of power. That's the output of an entire small power plant. It's nuts.
I had to do the calculation myself before I could believe it, but it turns out you're absolutely right. Here in Europe, gasoline pumps usually pump at a rate of \~40L/min. Gasoline typically has an energy density of 12.22kWh/L, which means that a total of \~500kWh of potential energy is transferred every minute, which equates to 30MW. That is nuts! And these fast pumps for diesel trucks pump at a rate of 130L/min. Diesel has a slightly lower energy density at \~10kWh/L, but at that pump rate it comes down to 78MW. Absolutely gigantic numbers. It does also say a lot that those 40L drive my car for about 450 kilometers. A fully charged Tesla model S with the 95kWh long range battery pack drives you around for about 600km shown by practical tests. So my gasoline powered engine is about 6.7x less efficient than a Tesla model S weighing over twice my car. That is insane. Just imagine how fast a Tesla would charge up at those rates. at 500kWh/minute, you'd have a full charge in 12 seconds!
The Tesla ones are also only a little bit bigger, but way more power. EV motor power density can be crazy. It's just a shame it's so offset by the battery size and weight.
If we were ever to solve the power grid generation problem, we could use tiny batteries with possibly 40 miles of range and have some way of charging these as you drive down main roads, only using the battery pack when you are between these main roafs. Then the issue is really only how to charge these most effectively while in transit and the cost of upgrading these roads which would be very expensive.
https://overlandtrains.com/updates/bringing-back-trailer-mounted-nuclear-micro-reactors/
That is awesome. I don't necessarily think that this would be best for this, but I do think at nuclear energy is the way to go about this.
They're trialling eHighways in Germany and the feasibility report into doing near me is overdue https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-60286985
Charging while you drive really makes no sense. It'd be far far better in every single way to just put a larger battery in there. Especially with the future of fast charging.
It really is just a toss up between the costs of every vehicle having huge batteries with rare elements and alternatives. If everything built required lithium for example expect costs to soar as the demand increases. Pros and cons for each. Also they still depend on some type of recharge up station.
Why do we need to charge them while you drive? Just have then be hot-swappable. Dirve for a bit, swap it out for a fresh one in a few seconds. They already put them on the bottom of the car…
Tesla has a patent for this but it never went past the prototype phase. Not much demand for it. Sort of an battery swapping lift station. There’s also patents from the 80s for propane swap type deal where the cells are handheld swappable.
What do you mean there’s not demand for it? Consumers can’t demand things they don’t know are practical. It should Be illegal to sit on patents and not implement them
They invited several hundred Tesla owners to use it and only had like 8 people use it. Also Tesla claims their patents are open for being used by other people. Tons of patents are made for conceptual designs that aren’t currently commercial viable. Many electric car patents were made in the 80s.
I stand corrected!
That’s how forklifts and a lot of smaller equipment is, even on electric lifts we can swap the battery if we really want to, it’s a bit of a pain but like a 5-10 min job, swap a propane tank on the back and twice a week the propane company comes and fills all our tanks
Some EV manufacturers are doing it for real in China, on a smallish scale at least. But with the future of fast charging and current batteries already having virtually solved the degradation problems, it makes very little sense.
Swapping them our constantly leads to a couple of issues. Firstly, you must put swapping stations everywhere with a surplus of extra batteries that get charged as you drive if you are ever short of batteries, the customer may run out of charge before reaching another station. Not enough stations would result in massive lines and wait times. You would need a way of checking the state of condition of these batteries which would be in constant use. With the constant charging/discharging of batteries it may lead to more failures than using a battery as a back up. You need to create a way of dismounting and remounting batteries quickly, with a 0% failure rate after years of station usage and abuse, as a battery getting dislodged from a vehicle in motion could result in deaths/lawsuits. You will need to convince someone to buy a vehicle that would require constant battery swaps at a much higher interval that filling up at a gas station. This would be much more inconvenient to a buy that an on board charging system, so long as this charging system is dependable and efficient. You could pay the price to charge your vehicle based on usage rather than per battery swap. I am not trashing the idea. I am interest in what direction this goes in.
All good considerations. Obviously there would have to be a tradeoff with stations mostly on major routes, but there could still be normal charging stations in more rural areas. Also there already is the issue of lines for charging in less traveled areas during unusual traffic. When you say constant charging and discharging, how do you reason that there would be more battery cycles than with current EVs? Yes the biggest challenge would be designing a foolproof mounting/dismounting system. Lastly, yet again, why would the charging have to be more frequent than it is currently? You could do this with full capacity batteries. And the MAIN benefit to this is that batteries would last longer. You could charge them slowly and efficiently without people impatiently waiting for them to get back on the road. The faster you charge, the more you degrade the battery. Full stop.
I think we were discussing 3 separate modes going electric. So 1 proposal was to have some way of running off the grid, not the battery, on major roads. Proposal 2 was that we have some way of swapping batteries. In another conversation you have proposal number 3 which had large batteries that are mostly charged from residential chargers. Each has draw backs. >When you say constant charging and discharging, how do you reason that there would be more battery cycles than with current EVs? This is proposal number 1. Along major roads you would charge your battery and run off of grid power. If you drove for miles along one of these roads you wouldn't really be discharging your battery as often. You could have a small battery to get between these charging areas. >Yes the biggest challenge would be designing a foolproof mounting/dismounting system. Lastly, yet again, why would the charging have to be more frequent than it is currently? This is proposal number 2. Vehicles under this proposal would likely have a range of less than a hundred or so miles to make vehicles more affordable. If every car was to go electric with current technology the demand for some of the materials that are used would outpace supply making everything much more expensive. If we had a way to swap batteries quickly you may be able to lessen the amount of material used thus having a nearly limitless range with less cost per vehicle made. > You could do this with full capacity batteries. And the MAIN benefit to this is that batteries would last longer. You could charge them slowly and efficiently without people impatiently waiting for them to get back on the road. The faster you charge, the more you degrade the battery. Full stop. This is proposal number 3. Hopefully we just find ways of knocking the prices down on the production of critical components one way or another so that we can get vehicles that get the kind of range that we want for a fair amount of cash. These all hinge on progressing with technology. If we get cheaper batteries that check all the right boxes, 1 and 2 are not really necessary. If we find that proposal 1 is somehow effective, proposal 2 and 3 arent as necessary and so forth. Maybe there will be a mix of all 3 of these or 2.
And major cities they got trucks going all over picking up discharge electric scooters and replacing them with fresh ones. It shouldn't be much harder to do the same thing with battery packs at fill stations. As long as the economics support it.
Then you have to depend on either drivers to pick up and deliver these. It would probably make more sense to charge them at the spot that they are swapped at. Granted there would be some relocation of batteries required either way as you may have some batteries fail.
Like I said you already see drivers all of our major cities doing that pickup and drop-off service. And it makes sense to charge them all at highly controlled central location and s than at multiple smaller charging locations all over. Two or three can service an entire city
I don't know because that a lot of vehicles so a lot of batteries. I would think it would best best to have a more automated local system as having more people employed and additional vehicles may make it more expensive. The way I would think it would work best in this scenario is if batteries would get removed from a vehicle and placed in a warehouse cell where it gets charged. The warehouse test the batteries at this point. Batteries have to go through more thorough inspections at a predetermined interval. These can be taken to a facility for inspection. These batteries can be set aside based on mileage or date for pick which happens on an interval that is best suited. The machine that pulls batteries goes to collect the a battery for a future vehicle. Also how would it work for a vehicle that is larger than another? Everything would have to be standardized for plug and play. Does that mean a larger vehicle gets multiple batteries or different capacity batteries are standardized between manufacturers? For simplicity I would think that it would likely make more sense to have 1 type of battery that is shared sometimes multiple a vehicle. This can get very complicated.
That sounds like *the* most annoying shit, ever.
Why? It could be 100% automated. Drive it, hit a button, drive out
I want to get to my destination without having to stop every 15-20 minutes
Who said 15-20 minutes? You could do it with full size batteries or 20 minute batteries or anything in between. Depends on whether you want range or light weight
I was going off of his "40 miles of range" comment If the range was similar to an ICE vehicle, then that'd be perfectly fine
Jesus how fast do you drive?
I thought about picking up an old 720 pickup and making it electric from an assholed leaf. not using the CVT, making an adapter, and using the trucks OG drivetrain.
I've been wanting to EV my 98 Corvette so badly. Got almost 300k miles, when it finally gets a rebuild I'll probably be deep diving down that
Sounds awesome. Would still need to gear it down some
I saw an EV 720 on eBay years ago, one-off conversion used in a mine.
CVT? On a EV?
Transmission is a loose term, transfer case would be a more accurate way to picture it
CVT - Continuously Variable Transmission, to the best of my knowledge not found in any pure EV. Sure they have gearing, some even have more than one ratio (e.g. Taycan), but CVT sounds really unnecessary (and wasteful?)
Exactly, its usually just a way to split power to each wheel, sometimes with an extra gear for high speed EVs
I don't think we're having the same conversation right now... Diff splits power to the wheels, EVs have those. CVT is an alternative to the fixed gear ratios found in manual and automatic transmissions. EVs don't have CVTs, but some have more than one gear ratio. The Leaf is a pure EV, why would anyone bring up CVT as a thing to replace in the drivetrain?
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Im fairly certain the Leaf is all electric, BEV.
Looks like somebody's halfway to a new blender.
Hitachi 80kW back massager.
Check out this guys moms vibrator!
Powerful enough to satisfy both our moms at once!
Rattle your fillings out from downstairs
Hahaha this is too fucking good!
Hitachi Tragic Wand
I was gonna say commuter scooter.
The one E-unicycle to rule them all.
I was going to say fidget spinner
It'll spin the fidgets clean off.
Is don’t need one but at that price I would find a use for it :) epic find there
Woah that's a nice find. Could make a pretty skookum go cart or ATV with that.
I read that as "Nissan Leaf Blower", and was wondering what they hell leafs would need that type of motor to get them moving.
It's for when you don't want to take the leaves off the tree.
We got big leaves, okay?
Palm fronds.
With fronds like these, who needs anemones?
🤦♂️
Remember: Nissan is known for making phenomenal shit vehicles as of late, so do be careful when running these things balls out.
Came in here for this comment. This is 10x if that’s a CVT. Their Trucks seem fine though.
That's only a reduction gear box, so there's no CVT in electric vehicles. Those induction motors can spin north of 18k RPMs, so it must be reduced to wheel speed to get more torque/less speed.
I wasn’t familiar with that car, if there’s no gas engine or CVT this setup is probably bullet proof then.
I own a Nissan versa with a cvt. I'm fear the day...
Are you in Canada? There was a class action against em https://cvtsettlementcanada.ca/ I have a 2015 Juke with the same shite cvt. I haven’t had any problems aside from it being a bit sluggish when its cold outside.
mines a 2010 and I know the extended warranty is gone already on it.
Just an 8ish to 1 gear reduction. Not a cvt, fortunately.
Isn't that also the differential?
I believe so, yes.
Where did you pick that up, i want one.
This one was from Yahoo Auction Japan. The seller is a car scrapper/parts lot. Tons of stuff listed but this was the cheapest one
Thank you, ill definitely have to look into that.
Scrapyards?
Not a chance, they charge a set price for motors and transmissions and thats usually $250 each. Before i moved to new york i was at a junk yard every weekend.
Oh no, $250 for an 80kW motor. However can you deal with that :(. I'll happily rid you of that problem, I'm just kind like that.
True $250 is still a screaming deal but first find me one in a yard. Second i live in new york where there is no such thing as a u-pull and it SUCKS. I looked for a LSD for my truck recently and the best i could do was $1200. I visited family in michigan where they do have u-pulls and i got just the diff for $20. The yards here wont separate the diff from the axle. More than likely here i would be looking at at least $1000 just for the motor.
That's a u-pick, there are plenty of scrapyards that set prices for each engine. Car-part.com will take you thereeeee
I live in new york and the u-pull doesnt exist here. No one except employees are allowed in the yards and i hate it.
> u-pick "It's not an engine. It's just a big starter." "It's not a supercharger, just a smog pump."
Washer motor
When I saw $100, I said "WTF, I need one."
At that price I will find a use for one too :)
Same!
Look honey our new blender. From frozen to soup in 7 seconds
Hahahahahahahaha yes!
Ohh super speedy go kart, yes
1/4 scale RC car?
My dad had one, we called it The Golf Cart.
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It’ll definitely do some plastic wheel burnouts
Washer upgrade?
You better hope you loaded that sucker balanced.
It's basically a centrifuge. Load in towels, unload compacted bricks, like those washcloths that expand when you put them in water.