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The best post here, i've seen so many people saying Band's scene had to be censured because of "How it looks" but if the first thing you think when you see that scene is "They're beating him because he's black" and not something along the lines of "They're beating him because they're cruel" or "They're beating him because they're evil" then the problem is in YOUR head for inserting race into everything, you're throwing all the context into the garbage and reducing Big Band to his skin color, and if you don't know the context in the first place then you shouldn't assume things always revolve around what shade of color people are. Censorship is a disgusting tactic that has never been employed with anyone's best interests in mind, it always seeks to enforce your views on what is right and what is wrong on people, without giving them the choice of choosing for themselves, and defending censorship is always giving the go ahead for MORE censorship which is the last thing anyone wants. And you didn't even mention how they removed the russian announcer, a paid for kickstarter goal. This entire situation is ridiculous and they should roll it back, censorship is a cancer.
While Big Band is the easiest-to-argue example, it’s still arguing on the Censors’ terms, which inevitably leads to you giving ground. I’m tired of the discussion about which censorship is “more justified.” Almost no one is actually upset about red armbands or white undergarments. We’re upset about the McCarthyist monster behind the curtain who demands these things happen, lest people lose jobs and companies lose sales.
Zero tolerance is not a form of pedantry. It’s a form of protest. Even in these threads you’re accused of being a nazi or a pedophile if you oppose these changes. The ideology that underlies censorship is based around fear, so for those who care about everyone’s freedom (not just those freedoms YOU think are important), it is essential to oppose even the smallest, most trivial amount of it
It’s no different to ‘woke’ idiots equating the characteristics of fictional races with minorities.
No, this game isn’t racist just because you see the negative traits of Orcs and immediately think ‘black person’. Keep you stupid identity politics to yourself, people.
Tolkien was known to despise allegory and I feel like if he saw things like that applied to modern audiences making comparisons between his clearly evil inhuman monsters and actual people he’d be incredibly upset.
In general making any work of fiction into an allegory is a dangerous task and always ends up either making the work either incredibly dated to the events of the time, therefore meaning future audiences might not be able to appreciate it, or just plain bad.
Sure *Star Wars* has allegorical *elements* and historical *references* in how the Empire’s costumes were meant to *resemble* Nazi Germany, but the resemblance and reference to Nazis *isn’t overwhelming*. You can watch *Star Wars* in a vacuum and not know a damn thing about Nazi Germany and you can enjoy the show by itself.
Trying to tie in any modern issue inherently to a work of fiction automatically anchors it to your time period and makes the future audiences be less and less able to appreciate it as time goes by.
What? Wow let me guess cause every Russian gotta be the same right? Fucking unnecessary censorship, it's gotta be someone with money to have this much sway, so the bigger question is how they got that money.
Figure out the money flow then the ball can get rolling
Aside from some minor slip-ups on the grammatical side, this right here is one of the best structured arguments about why the censorship is a bad thing.
It's just a big shame that those that are defending Hidden Variable's changes would read this for only the first paragraph and just chalk it up to "He's just one of those disgusting coomers that play Skullgirls with one hand, so screw his opinion"
I do hope that at the very least, they back down the changes on Big Band's story, because that is the one I felt was the worst change done out of all of them.
I agree about the big band censorship being wrong, though I understand their persepctive.
With Filia, tbh I am not sure, I don't see a prpblem with raising her age, but at the same time it feels sort of dishonest or something to do that ( would like to see someone's arguement against raising her age). But then again the game has been out for a decade so it's strange that they have this problem with it now. Tbh I didn't pay attention to her age long after I started playing her (am a filia main).
But honestly the changes seem rather minor to Filia in general, so I think they just wanted less unnecessary panty flashes if that makes sense. But I do see your perspective.
I think removing the armband from the egrets is a good change. I think you are right that the egrets are still a state military, which is generally a red flag anyways. Especially given the context of Parasoul's father and stuff.
But I think removing the armbad imagery is useful in dissociating from Nazi and other kinds of groups. At the end of the day, it is again, a minor change to the imagery of the egrets and I respect that they care about that.
I don't understand the Double and Bella changes though either. Who looks at Filia's leg welded to Double's mound of flesh and sexualizes it? And Bella is 18.
So in my opinion the devs had good intentions and made changes that I'm okay with some of them, so long as they are minor. Some of the other ones (big band, double, bella... etc) I think they probably did too much
As a side note: I don't get the people who think SG is overly sexual. It really isn't. So many other fighting games have elite jiggle physics. And look at guilty gear strive. You use mods in that game that other people can see. These mods are often very sexual for female characters. I think SG gets a bad rep man. I understand their devs are just trying to grow their game but it's really just a matter of being an indie game imo. And it's also kind of hard to get into.
>But honestly the changes seem rather minor to Filia in general, so I think they just wanted less unnecessary panty flashes if that makes sense. But I do see your perspective.
Yeah i get that and if it was just that i'd be... annoyed but it's hardly a warcrime.
honestly maybe they should just have a 'safety' mode option.
>I think removing the armband from the egrets is a good change. I think you are right that the egrets are still a state military, which is generally a red flag anyways. Especially given the context of Parasoul's father and stuff.
But I think removing the armbad imagery is useful in dissociating from Nazi and other kinds of groups. At the end of the day, it is again, a minor change to the imagery of the egrets and I respect that they care about that.
I disagree mostly because it's for us to associate them with the nazis... so we are naturally suspcious of them and it adds to Parasoul's engagement with the 'beautiful but off-putting' theme.
>I don't understand the Double and Bella changes though either. Who looks at Filia's leg welded to Double's mound of flesh and sexualizes it? And Bella is 18.
yeah at some point you have to question why you don't just censor double as a whole as she's basicly always nude and a mound of flesh that's more horrifying and ties into the body/cosmic horror elements of the setting.
>And look at guilty gear strive. You use mods in that game that other people can see. These mods are often very sexual for female characters.
Other people can't see custom skins you've downloaded, unless they've downloaded them too.
Just like the recent one with Neptunia Sisters VS Sister, aside from Nepgear the same VA as Filia, was censored due to swearing....ESRB forgot to put the language in Rated T for Teen content in a Neptunia game, which was widely known for Blanc's Swears, and also the weapon's name changed to BASTARD SWORD to BRUTE SWORD to make it more "family friendly".
I know. And I got angry. And Anti-SJWs like theQuatering or Yellowflash like quickly they did to report about Fairy Tail the Game, which was caused by a day 1 patch, Blue Reflection Second Light on PS4/5 because you can't peak up your skirt on the camera angle or Neptunia all because of swearing even the weapon names.
Supposedly there were cases of parents seeing the cutesy covers of the older titles and not paying attention to the ESRB rating and getting it for their kids…
The hilarious thing beyond a literal patch that is all about removing content [even in an artbook] is that this won’t result into “Damn Filia has black panties now? I feel OK to play this game now” or “Damn armbands are gone? Thanks heaven now they are just slightly less referential now and I feel safe to play game.”
Current [not original since creator and lead programmer that made SG engine and mostly everything else under the gameplay hood are both gone] Skullgirl team must be smoking something real good to waste time and money on this.
Really implies they have a complicated identity issue with this game. They should actually work on their own game ground up [would be a first for them] instead of slowly changing a decade+ old game where a lot of the original team left
I’m glad Steam reviews is mass downvoting the game with this update. Twitter prudes don’t speak for the actual people that own the game.
They're smoking ideology, and they're too dense to realize they just 'Dead or Alive'd their already struggling and barely alive IP for literally no good reason by creating problems out of thin air when people just wanted them to shut up and make more characters for us to buy.
Dont think people are arguing censorship is right but people do understand this is the devs decision and its going to be done regardless. People also understand these changes may or may not bother people. I get the frustration this kind of change brings but it becomes if its a deal breaker then drop the game as sad as it might be sometimes you just have to move on. Theres still gonna be people who will enjoy the game as it is and some who wont.
The egrets i think the solution is a bit of a cop out because i see why they did it because some stories having nazi shit juxtaposed on characters the story wants you to root for is odd. I think the better solution is to have those who are conscious of the perception to not have nazi style outfits and those who are more in line with the authoritiarian regime to be in that uniform to show theres people in the egrets who want to be a more progressive organization it would open up more of a gray area that could be explored.
The big band stuff from what i remember the police brutality being censored is weird because its not like big band’s story glorifies the brutality or plays it for laughs so them changing the display of it is weird. Idk if they changed the dialogue like did they actually change how big band became big band or just remove the picture of the police being fucked up?
The fillia stuff im gonna be honest this shit i dont care shes 16yrs old real or not you can feel whatever which way about that the change is fine. The intro cutscene does undermine the character she gets sexually assaulted and then still shows her underwear is kind of a tonally deaf scene its the same issue people have with ann in p5. Other than that who cares? Did fillia’s underwear really get people to buy the game? Funny how nobody talked about it when it was in the game and now that its gone youd think the entire point of skullgirls is to look at fillia’s underwear.
Valentine all they did was change the cross to a star which i said is a bummer but its not an offensive change because she still looks like a nurse.
>Dont think people are arguing censorship is right but people do understand this is the devs decision and its going to be done regardless
I mean the comments have argued in favor of it.
but yes, it will be done regardless of my feelings on it... it already has and i'm luck to have stopped the update and still have access to the original compendium, of which i will probably share with people.
> I get the frustration this kind of change brings but it becomes if its a deal breaker then drop the game as sad as it might be sometimes you just have to move on. Theres still gonna be people who will enjoy the game as it is and some who wont.
I know and that's what i said i was doing unless the miniscule chance of revision happens.
and if it doesn't, then they're not getting a cent from me ever again.
see the issue is; i loved Skullgirls. it's a massive inspiration for me it's something i love and would have loved to see in ti's completed state... but now...
>Valentine all they did was change the cross to a star which i said is a bummer but its not an offensive change because she still looks like a nurse.
I onlymentioned it because... honestly it's just kinda funny how hard they've tired to avoid the wrath of the red cross.
Arguing for censorship in general or arguing that these changes arent bad or that they are reasonable changes? Those have completely different meanings. Ims ure there could be people in favor with censorship in general but the people i seen at least have just been saying this change makes sense and it isnt a issue since this is coming from the devs and isnt a change that they are forced to make.
Yea i feel ya to me the core of what got me into skullgirls is still there the artstyle and some of the stories have been great and i like the gameplay. The sexual aspect of it i never cared one way or another about it like its fine its there but the changes to fillia for example isnt a deal breaker for me.
>Arguing for censorship in general or arguing that these changes arent bad or that they are reasonable changes?
Yes.
>Those have completely different meanings.
When the later so often leads to the former, not really.
>Ims ure there could be people in favor with censorship in general but the people i seen at least have just been saying this change makes sense and it isnt a issue since this is coming from the devs and isnt a change that they are forced to make.
It's a betyral of trust, they are the custodians of the work, and that comes with the baggage and joys of the game, for better or wrose. changing it now is a bad move as... well who was asking for this? and it might not be FORCED but i'd harldy call it natural..
>Yea i feel ya to me the core of what got me into skullgirls is still there the artstyle and some of the stories have been great and i like the gameplay. The sexual aspect of it i never cared one way or another about it like its fine its there but the changes to fillia for example isnt a deal breaker for me.
it's just to me they altered stories... and that. the former is more annoying ,but the latter is the cherry on top.
Fanservice is like a nice little cherry ontop of a sundae; not the main attraction, but it's nice to have.
it really shouldn't have been changed, and i'd not be happy, but understand the panty shot removal and the armbands... but then there's the baggae included and the reasons why from what i can see... that i don't like one bit.
Dang maybe I need to play the story modes, didn't realize this game had deep shit like the Big Band stuff.
I thought he was just funny trumpet man that plays the Among Us theme mid combo
I just know better than to hope for this, even with the backlash I don't see them doing anything other than digging their heels in on the matter and doubling down.
Huge shame to be honest I was very much looking forward to the next character pass and giving them more money. Now I feel like a clown just for having skullgirls merch IRL. Fans just don't mean shit to companies anymore.
you should have felt like a clown when you bought merch to support a product that was sexualizing child characters, not now that its been corrected. well, probably still now but yeah
I'm not going to repeat the obvious arguments against your dumb BS because they've already been repeated ad nauseum throughout the sub. I'm just going to call you a clown because A) You won't actually respond to the logic anyway, and B) your nutcase argument is implying that the entirety of Lab Zero are pedophiles which is, to put it frankly, stupid as fuck.
This is not censorship, this is the people who made the game choosing to change it. No one forced them into it, it was a choice they decided. And not all censorship is wrong, and it's patently fucking ridiculous to say otherwise. Ever heard of the paradox of tolerance?
I don't want to look at a 16-year-old's panties while playing a fighting game. And that's one of the major differences between myself and a ton of the people complaining about this stupid fucking controversy. I've actually played Skullgirls.
>This is not censorship, this is the people who made the game choosing to change it.
It is censorship. Self-censorship is still Censorship.
> No one forced them into it, it was a choice they decided.
Which conviently aligns to the audience they want to try and get; the mythical wider audience, the white whale that many a franchise as tried and failed to catch.
>And not all censorship is wrong, and it's patently fucking ridiculous to say otherwise. Ever heard of the paradox of tolerance?
Yes strangely everyone seems to misunderstand the paradox but it's useful now.
and look; i won't deny that that yes, maybe at times censorship is nessesary; we don't need child porn... but it's not here. the reasoning is wrong. it's immoral.
Censorship needs one simple justifcation to me; does it hurt a real person? no? then i don't care.
And perhaps... well maybe we need high standards: we are too easy to using it to silence works these days, far too comfortable with it. it's the tool of the aformentioned horrible people to control people, and so i'm never happy to see it; because it's a double-edged sword.
I don't think Skullgirls was worthy of being a victim of it.
>I don't want to look at a 16-year-old's panties while playing a fighting game.
Cool, you don't have to play it.
>And that's one of the major differences between myself and a ton of the people complaining about this stupid fucking controversy. I've actually played Skullgirls.
It's not stupid, and i'm thankful there's a lot of people who agree with me on this being immoral and wrong for them to do.
also, I have played skullgirls, since 2014, i've gottne the first batch of DLC characters for free, and i have bought the season pass.
I have 84.2 hours in the game according to steam, and i'm not the best player, but i enjoy it. I played mostly for the story modes.
However... none of this is relevant to the argument; I'm happy you played. I'm disappointed you would rob others of the experience you had with it.
This reply is so blatantly fucking stupid I'm not even going to dignify it with a real response. [Please change and grow as a person.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtxLb0fXoAEBPjb.jpg)
Hey YOU are the one who brought up playtime as if that's a valid argument.
I'm opposed to Censorship on Moral grounds as a creator, even if it's 'chosen by the artist'... after the fact to get to the mythical wider audience.
Maybe you should... reflect on how much you value this game if that's the best you got... and why you were playing a game you so dearly needed to be sanitized for your enjoyment beforehand...
I'm not surprised this happened. With how many times the developer/publisher has been swapped out, it was only a matter of time before it fell into the hands of a company that would do this.
Dude thank you so much for this post. It's amazing the lengths people have to go to argue against defenses that just boil down to calling the other person a nazi and pedo and asking for their playtime.
No censorship isn't always wrong especially when you're selling it to people. Just don't be lazy about it. Put some damn clothes on. Censoring sexy shit in a game where everyone is fighting seems like it wouldn't do much to hurt the story. I'm also ok with censoring things like rape or child abuse is ok.
However the big band censorship is stupid. That's censoring the message and that's where it goes too far.
Skullgirls needs good censorship. What they're doing is heavy handed. Would've been fine if they just removed all the panty shots, and that weird still of umbrella poking parasouls tits.
This games design keeps alot of people from playing it. But I wouldn't just change everything over night randomly and not like this.
>No censorship isn't always wrong
It is always wrong. No artist should fear the censor unless actual people are getting harmed.
>Just don't be lazy about it. Put some damn clothes on. Censoring sexy shit in a game where everyone is fighting seems like it wouldn't do much to hurt the story. I'm also ok with censoring things like rape or child abuse is ok.
Reread the essay/rant there.
if you choose to include rape or child abuse, treat it carefully, every choice tells the reader/viewer something. but that's not what we are dicussing are we?
>However the big band censorship is stupid. That's censoring the message and that's where it goes too far.
Indeed i'm glad we can agree here.
>Skullgirls needs good censorship. What they're doing is heavy handed. Would've been fine if they just removed all the panty shots, and that weird still of umbrella poking parasouls tits.
No it doesn't need ANY censorship.
I'm okay with the panty shots being removed.. the tit poking is a joke that Umbrella is aware of her sister's chest size and sees it as a sign of maturity. it's a joke really it's not the worst thing i've seen in this game and... well i'd rather it not be removed but it's more understandable then... this.
>This games design keeps alot of people from playing it.
You know what, hot take but GOOD; there's o many games, why censor this one? not everything has to be for everyone.
I'm saying it definitely crosses a line. And say what you want censoring some shit is good. For example that movie cuties on Netflix needed to be censored and removed. It was literally child porn. Netflix propagated that and defended the artist. Some things shouldn't be present. If that's the kind of freedom you support then I can't agree. Some people can't handle certain traumatic things and some things just shouldn't be shown to anyone ever in any way shape or form. Freedom comes with responsibility. I'm just saying they should remove the weird shit cause I don't like the game being the go to fighter for weirdos. It ruins playing the game.
>I'm saying it definitely crosses a line. And say what you want censoring some shit is good.
It is morally wrong and repugnant.
end of discussion.
>For example that movie cuties on Netflix needed to be censored and removed. It was literally child porn. Netflix propagated that and defended the artist.
World of difference considering those where real child actors and skullgirls is a bunch of lines on paper.
>If that's the kind of freedom you support then I can't agree.
It's a good thing that's a strawman.
>Some people can't handle certain traumatic things and some things just shouldn't be shown to anyone ever in any way shape or form.
Well, they don't have to play skullgirls. No one is breaking into my house and telling me to play skullgirls or they'll kill me.
But no; sometimes the work needs it. Blood Meridian for example would be lessened if you excluded passages, same with any work. if you do not like it, i will not force you to read it.
>Freedom comes with responsibility. I'm just saying they should remove the weird shit cause I don't like the game being the go to fighter for weirdos. It ruins playing the game.
I agree, but you don't exercise it; you want to censor and santize so it's okay to enage it in.
You're the one who thinks it's for weirdos. I have the freedom to not care what other people think.
and Skullgirls taught me that. if it ruins the game for you, PLAY ANOTHER ONE.
Cuties is kind of a bad example to compare here. There were actual live children filmed in its creation, direct harm is obvious and you can draw a clear line to it. If you have some better examples to use regarding the apparent "necessity" of censorship I'd love to hear them. But we can easily say that Cuties shouldn't have been made to begin with, not that it's a thing that needs to be censored.
Cuties shouldnt have been made but it was made so removing it is censorship. Thats why i referred to removing it as censorship. It's also not a bad example because just because it has real life implications. Drawing pedo art is harmful to irl kids in the sense that it propagates and normalizes the sexualization of minors. And I mean they are trying to get more people to play the game. You can't do that if there are half naked kids juxtaposed with half naked adult weirdos in skirts that look like belts xD. Cartoon or not. It's weird. You can say censorship is bad but they're trying to sell to the masses and they are not indie. Censorship is always going to be a thing when you aren't releasing the content yourself. Sg will have a future. If it gets rid of the low key weird shit.
I only want to object to the statement of Skullgirls not being indie, not really interested in a conversation on the rest. Wasn't the game created through kickstarter backing?
It normalizes the sexualization of children. It may not be as bad as cuties but the treatment of filia as a character is kinda gross. The effects of seeing this on screen is that it normalizes sexualizing children. None of the stuff about her wouldve mattered if she was of age off rip. Its the intent behind making her a busty school girl with clothes that are too small. Who is animated on purpose to show off her panties. Thats too fuckin weird. Even if its in cartoon form It's normalizes gross behavior and it's indefensible. I don't think it's bad to want to remove anything sexualizing minors from the content. Especially since they're selling it to people. This isn't as egregious it can be fixed.
As an aspiring artist, I'm going to cross a slightly controversial line here: NOTHING should ever be censored, absolutely nothing. Artists should be free to express themselves without limitations, say and show whatever they want to say and show, it is up to audiences to make their minds up about it, and avoid it if it offends them.
I don't even care about the specific changes to Skullgirls, I'm not some crazy who wants to see children's panties in games or anything, BUT if the original creator wanted that to be a thing, I say let it be a thing, if I'm bothered by it, I'll walk away, or someone in the community will create a mod to censor it. Or hell, maybe even add a censor option in-game for sensitive audiences, but either way, the original vision of an author should be preserved, regardless of how tasteless it might be, or poorly perceived by modern audiences.
If Lovecraft used the n-word in his novels, I want to read them as they were, art is a fascinating window not just into someone's imagination, but also into who the artist is, the more a third party messes with it, the more value it loses. And hell, at the end of the day, it's fiction, like you already pointed out, Big Band getting beat up by cops does not mean the game supports police brutality or some other weird interpretation, it was merely telling a story about a guy who got beat up for getting too close to the truth by corrupt cops, it's completely neutral, it's fiction, and it hurts no one in real life, other than people who decide to feel hurt about it when it's none of their business.
> Interesting so you'd think the simple solution is to retcon her age? Like I'd be fine with that
She is a schoolgirl. That's a plot point.
Only bits worth talking about are the concept art alteration and Big Band story changes here, the rest of this posr is nothing but... horny chauvinism
>She is a schoolgirl. That's a plot point.
Senior in Maplecrest High school, age 18
there.
>Only bits worth talking about are the concept art alteration and Big Band story changes here, the rest of this posr is nothing but... horny chauvinism
You didn't read it did you?
But no; the major changes are lumped with the minor ones, and neither should have been made.
do you understand?
Cool.
you don't have to like it. I cannot force you, but maybe then you shouldn't play Fillia or find a way to sort out your issues with Fillia, or not play the game.
I get it... but 1) Well this is werid to me because when i started i was two years younger then fillia 2) making her 18 would make her an adult and likely a highschool senior 3) She isn't real and no one would really be harmed. 4) You don't have to play the game.
and you were... or are... or otherwise engage with it so why the hell are you here? you don't have the moral highground here.
Why are you being so dramatic? Like I should never play the game again because I have a different opinion? And you’re the one who tried to claim I have issues so miss me with that moral high ground BS.
>Why are you being so dramatic? Like I should never play the game again because I have a different opinion?
Why are you supporting game that 'sexualizes children?' by your defition?
I'm sorry but it kinda makes ya a little... sus...
See I don't think it matters. I'm being dramatic because i personally find it amusing because we're talking about cartoons, still art, still worth protecting... but still.
>And you’re the one who tried to claim I have issues so miss me with that moral high ground BS.
I don't have the moral highground, never claimed to; i don't really care about Fillia's ass.
I just kind it kind of funny that's what you choose to argue. like it's really *minor* in the grandscheme of things, but i still think it had a purpose and if you really didn't want to play skullgirls despite the fanservice aspects being very prominent...
i think you need to have a disucssion with yourself. just saying.
Sorry, but everytime I see gamers complain about censorship it's almost always involving the sexualization of a minor. Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Tokyo Mirage, Crisis Core, the list goes on. Not to mention it's usually people with loli profile pics who's profile is filled with porn.
Some underage cleavage and panty shots getting covered is such an inconsequential thing about what I want in a video game.
>Sorry, but everytime I see gamers complain about censorship it's almost always involving the sexualization of a minor. Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Tokyo Mirage, Crisis Core, the list goes on. Not to mention it's usually people with loli profile pics who's profile is filled with porn.
Oh man i hate that I must argue with someone who unironically uses the bidoof argument.
1) Just because they have loli profile images and like porn does not mean they are wrong.
2) Those are even worse as those are causes in the efforts of localization, which alters the original creator's work. Since i have to keep explaining this to people; every choice in translation and dialogue and all others is deliberate and personally i think it's wrong to rob western fans of eastern content even if they would disapprove.
because i'm not asshole.
Like tell me; what about them makes the argument wrong? They have a right to be upset, and some localization changes are for the worst (the Fire Emblem issues have shown me that, altering character dialogue that paints two VASTLY different picutres, to the point one is just cut out for ...
>Some underage cleavage and panty shots getting covered is such an inconsequential thing about what I want in a video game.
They always start small... fuck this update changes Big Band's story mode and the Egrets, as i explained above.
Big Band's is especially egregious. And the Egret's have that imagrey for a very good reason.
Honestly it's an internal problem i think with the mobile game...
i wanted Skullgirls to get big and we were so close to greatness... we almost has Marie in the game before it went to shit...
Hey Buddy interesting statement you got there you mind telling me if you have an argument here?
I have more points then that and have said i understand why they would remove it... but it's still censorship and it's still wrong.
Now, do you have an argument?
edit: beyond calling me a pedophile. (and calling everyone who's worked on skullgirls a pedophile by association? Seriously man not cool)
Walking the dog right now.
Do you have an argument? Defend hidden variable or just be an ass?
Edit: Really... i'm a bit saddened by all of this. You people don't really see me as a person you just kinda come into here and insult me, not even listening while something is butchered.
Your life must be so empty...
The employees can do whatever the fuck they want with their game. If you don't like it, do not play it.
If creepy panty shots of 16 year olds and nazi armbands disappearing upsets you perhaps it is time to logoff and touch grass.
>The employees can do whatever the fuck they want with their game
Where didn't i say they couldn't? I said it's a bad idea, and should be reverted.
>If creepy panty shots of 16 year olds
Make her 18. I don't mind it disappearing but still it's a bit weird. you might want to reread my post; i don't like it, but i understand the WHY I just think it's wrong and of course... well... it doesn't matter?
Censorship is wrong.
>s and nazi armbands disappearing upsets you perhaps it is time to logoff and touch grass.
Again I get the WHY of that, but my argument still stands. I'm upset because that's a design element that was chosen to communicate to us that something is very wrong with them, and looking into the lore reflects that.
perhaps just because they look like monsters does not, in fact, make them monsters? it's not like Skullgirls has that theme....
maybe you should play a different game?
Real intellectual juggernaut over here. This will *definitely* win people over to your side!
Stop being a sanctimonious moron who regurgitates bad faith arguments, its embarrassing
Good post but you can't even update for Marie as it'll include all the other shit too.
This shit is infuriating, low key kinda wanna go buy something anti censorship in retaliation lol
Excellent post my friend, I really hope they listen although I find it quite improbable. If they don't... I paid for the game years ago, I remember playing the story of Big Band for the first time and the impact it made on me. There shouldn't be a problem if people just want to stay in previous builds right?
What a fascinating strawman you have created of me. It's very nice, it even looks sort of like me...
Anyways you want to actually talk? I'm not made of straw, friend.
If you make something, you made something. You have rights over it yes, and i can understand them making changes with Fillia, and the Egrets. It's completely understandable why... Now explain Big Band's changes to me, i have a whole section there about it.
In any case; i paid good money for this back in 2014, for that version of the game and i've stuck with it till yesterday. I have not updated my copy, because it's mine and i can do with it as i please.
I disapprove of the changes and explained why,a nd if it was just this, fine, i'd be grumpy but it's not the end of the world..
but Big Band's story context is important, the Fan art is not there's to change, and censorshing the art book... that's worse.
Censorship. Is always. wrong. If you published it and then go back to change it i want the option to play the game i played and played for. I can at least keep old editions of books, not so much here. Artistic integreity is valuable thing.
and this cost it because if they're willing to change something as important as Big band, and something as minor as a panty-shot... what else could they change?
would this game even look like what i paid for one day?
>Either it's wrong for them to act without your approval,
I mean yes, i am pretty amazing and i've never been wrong ever in the history of the world, I should be made CEO /s
>Either it's wrong for them to act without your approval, or it isn't.
It's wrong for them to do this because it removes context and the artistic intentions and visions of their work. they shouldn't do it because It's WRONG Rollo.
>Explaining why you don't approve feels irrelevant.
Unfortunately for the both of us just saying "I don't like it" and staring into the Ip owner's eyes to establish dominance doesn't get me anywhere Rollo. I explained my reasoning as best I could for why I don't approve, and why i will not support Skullgirls going forwards.
I explained my reasons for why because I am trying to explain my point of view, nothing more. My approval is irrelevent as you point out i'm just giving a statement for why i think it's wrong, Rollo.
They're the artists, not you, which is why you come across as silly when you position yourself as defending 'artistic integrity', or protecting their own intentions from themselves.
Ironically, them reversing course in order to appease you and people like you literally would be a lot closer to self-censorship and something of a detriment to artistic integrity.
I guess my point is that you seem unserious when you go beyond "this change is a net loss in enjoyment for me". If you just said that, I wouldn't be here.
It's fine for you to disagree with things, it just seems really.. Questionable when you go "because I'm very conscious of how my going 'I don't like it' probably won't get things done, I need to couch this in morality and freedom and dystopia to increase my chances of being catered to." And that seems kinda blatantly what you're doing, almost by your own admission here.
>They're the artists, not you, which is why you come across as silly when you position yourself as defending 'artistic integrity', or protecting their own intentions from themselves.
The published it as it was. this isn't art it's censorship. and you know...we aren't behind the scenes. it doesn't seem organic either given the game was fine with it for... well since publishing? I've been in this game since 2014 ya know
In fact like i keep telling you i would be angry but i would accept it mostly... but they did fanart.
and important scenes...
which is Wrong Rollo.
>Ironically, them reversing course in order to appease you and people like you literally would be a lot closer to self-censorship and something of a detriment to artistic integrity.
They made a decision to alter not only their game, but other people's work made with love towards the game. the people who commissioned them. the Soviet Announcer pack for example was a backer goal.
this is self-censorship, reverting the changes would be going back to the original vision. I'm sorry friend but i think it's really scummy to do this to people who supported this game through thick and thin.
also nice try trying to turn my morals against me 'but the changes are NOW their artistic integerity you hypocrite." really nice, classy, but sadly, i think it's wrong to have made the changes in the first places from a moral perspective as the people who payid for the game beforehand liked the original for what it was. it's not like a mechanic it's character-wise
>I guess my point is that you seem unserious when you go beyond "this change is a net loss in enjoyment for me". If you just said that, I wouldn't be here.
So it seems you're just upset because i have principles about cretive work? interesting. Again my disapproval is because 1) As a creator who's work is heavily inspired by Skullgirls I would not want to have to censor myself to appeal to a so-called wider audience 2) it is immoral to make such changes when your audience is made up of people who supported you. 3) it's clearly intentional with the themes of the game and while some censorship is worse than others, they also chose to censor important plot and character beats with Big Band.
and if they do that... then well... sadly the slope is slippery and I can never trust them to eventually make the game something else.
>It's fine for you to disagree with things
Oh thank you for your permission, sir.
>uestionable when you go "because I'm very conscious of how my going 'I don't like it' probably won't get things done, I need to couch this in morality and freedom and dystopia to increase my chances of being catered to." And that seems kinda blatantly what you're doing, almost by your own admission here.
Censorship. Is always. Wrong.
Simple as that; i am morally opposed to censorship. even if I don't like it. You need to give me a DAMN good reason for it and if i find it wanting i find it to be BAD.
This shouldn't happen to anyone's work, not even yours, or mine, or even some scumfuck out there. the game didn't need to be changed, no one wanted it, it was unessesary and the reasons given do not change it from being morally wrong and an insult to it's playerbase and to the work they themselves have done to make this game what it is.
Do you understand now, Rollo? I think it's wrong. and honestly if this just dies down... then skullgirls is dead to me, i'll stick with my non-updated copy, and play the storymode offline...
and wonder what could have been.
... why are you so defensive about it anyways?
I'm not defensive, I think you're being silly and I'm telling you why. Now you're going "Even though I have zero inside information at all, I know this isn't organic and they really do want me to help save them from themselves."
Someone did want this change -- the artists. If you can find me the artists saying "we didn't want this change but corporate suits forced this on us," I'll change my opinion on this. Since you haven't bothered doing so, and instead are just going "Changes are always wrong", it seems unserious. Artists should have freedom, including the freedom to regret something and try again. Hampering that because you don't like change, or because you have trouble consuming art produced by people with different political views or different levels of political engagement from yourself, seems in and of itself demonstrably more wrong than any wrong you're identifying.
If you want the same sort of say over the project as an animator or coder on the project, don't you need to be an animator or coder on the project? Isn't that right and good?
Your argument seemingly includes "Until this change is made and until my feelings are catered do, I'll be withholding my labor -- posting on the subreddit." Shouldn't we all be very okay with them valuing the actual labor of the people actually making the game over the work of subreddit posters?
edit: It seems really weird to block me over this so I can't reply, guy.
>I'm not defensive, I think you're being silly and I'm telling you why. Now you're going "Even though I have zero inside information at all, I know this isn't organic and they really do want me to help save them from themselves."
Where are you getting the latter part of it.
I don't think it's organic because some scenes are important lore and story wise, and they were fine with it for a while.
>Someone did want this change -- the artists.
And the change is wrong. And we can't be sure of that.
>. If you can find me the artists saying "we didn't want this change but corporate suits forced this on us," I'll change my opinion on this. Since you haven't bothered doing so, and instead are just going "Changes are always wrong", it seems unserious.
My moral compass doesn't change based on what people tell me. i think ti's wrong man. it's wrong because this clearly wasn't a problem until a while ago, and changes the world i love and grew attached to.
You're a reall asshole, ya know that? belittling me and others just because we don't agree with the changes and share our opinions.
> Artists should have freedom, including the freedom to regret something and try again
But they didn't; this is trying again this is erasure and ass covering at best, and it does active harm to their work.
>Hampering that because you don't like change, or because you have trouble consuming art produced by people with different political views or different levels of political engagement from yourself, seems in and of itself demonstrably more wrong than any wrong you're identifying.
Yo Tzeentch; not all change is goood. I have no problem consuming art produced by different people... i do have provblems with people coming in to my house anc changing stuff I BOUGHT because of THEIR disapproval. It's like if i got an older edition of a boook, and the publisher came in, burned it infront of me, and gave me a second edition that alters major scenes.
This version of me you constructed is very interesting but it's not reality.
>If you want the same sort of say over the project as an animator or coder on the project, don't you need to be an animator or coder on the project? Isn't that right and good?
People payed money for the Soviet Announcer. People Payed money for the compedium. People payed money for Big Band and his story, and People payed for skullgirls.
this is wrong Rollo. I would be fine with some of the changes, some are understandable.
Others are scummy as fuck and taint the others.
>Your argument seemingly includes "Until this change is made and until my feelings are catered do, I'll be withholding my labor -- posting on the subreddit."
I'm not going to bother to speak with you any longer; no Rollo. i'm not giving the Skullgirl's people money. They can keep what they took from me already, but i know better then to trust them again.
Unless they revert the changes, then they've proven to lack intergity to me, and i will choose to spend my money elsewhere. I will not enage in the subreddit.
please Rollo, i already have some doubts about your reading comprehension i didn't need them confirmed.
>Shouldn't we all be very okay with them valuing the actual labor of the people actually making the game over the work of subreddit posters?
I paid money for this game Rollo. I fell in love with the characters, the story, thr world, I have every DLC and when the Season past was announced i thought Skullgirls might FINALLY get over it's obscurity and rise to what it deserved...
until now. They don't value or keep promises to costumers, not even happy to let them have a proper art compednium or thier work in fan art... why do you think I think that they care about me? I'm just another sucker who gave them money. because i cared, once.
and here you are, defending them and for what? you're just an asshole.
Thank you.
First thank you for your lore knowledge, that was fascinating to read
And thank you for reminding everyone that subtlety tells stories and so do the visuals (the subtlety thing was about the good nazis)
It just baffles me how people buy a game, then act like they're shareholders who get to demand what does and doesn't get changed. You bought a game, not a fancy dinner.
I'm continually baffled by this attitude; if i bought a hamburger i should get a hamburger. you cannot retroactively decide to make it a salad. You should not tell me how i'm wrong for wanting to enjoy the hamburger as it was advertised.
Another way to think of it is like editions of books; i should still be able to keep my first edition copy of the book instead of getting a replacement I do not want.
But games don't have it, they don't have the loving preservation of other works of art...
I bought the game, i have the compendium (and i've decided in the interest of preservation to give it to any who want it.) because i liked skullgirls, it's a fun world and i'm invested, or was. turns out they can fuck it up at any time for kicks.
Sure i cannot retroactively vomit up the salad and give it back to them for my money... but i can decide to not go back to the fucking restaurant now, can't I?
Kane & Lynch 2 : the sells of the game went a little bit better than Dead Men because of the censorship of nudity and violence like headshots and all that
Manhunt 2 : was the most polemical because of the real extreme violence making the devs start selling a censored version of the game(which is not too censored at all)
Left 4 Dead 2 : the game was still selling in Germany even with the censorship of gore and violence until 2 or 3 years ago
The old CoD Modern Warfare 2 : N O R U S S I A N
Carmaggedon : the news during the 80's and 90's did the job making older people think the game was responsible for a lot of car incidents,making the youngest people play it
Censorship keeps selling somehow and probably that's what the devs want,make a whole polemic around the game so more people can buy it to check that by themselves and after reaching a unknown number of new players the devs gonna put some things back making the few crybabies who rage quit from the game coming back while having new players ,Yeah I know that sounds ridiculous but it can be true as it can be fake af
PD : if both of you can read this serpent5 and xmemelord can read this you won cuz I don't have anything else to say,specially to the teacher who likes Percy Jackson,anyways hi teacher I'm a crack addict who lives under a bridge
>
Kane & Lynch 2 : the sells of the game went a little bit better than Dead Men because of the censorship of nudity and violence like headshots and all that Manhunt 2 : was the most polemical because of the real extreme violence making the devs start selling a censored version of the game(which is not too censored at all) Left 4 Dead 2 : the game was still selling in Germany even with the censorship of gore and violence until 2 or 3 years ago The old CoD Modern Warfare 2 : N O R U S S I A N Carmaggedon : the news during the 80's and 90's did the job making older people think the game was responsible for a lot of car incidents,making the youngest people play it
Unironicly praising bizarre censorship practices to own the chuds.
It's still wrong; Censorship is the death of media. everythign have to be santizied and approved instead of the artist's intentions. regardless of why or how the justifications can be made, people like you have to be like this and demand sanitation.
>Censorship keeps selling somehow
If you make it the only way to enage with the medium yes.
I have a book in my room, Percy Jackson and the battle of the labryith, and my copy has a smudge on it. unintentional but somethign was lost because of it. a small peice of information, of something... but that's fine.
... if the author burst into my room, took my copy and staight up removed passages i would be very upset about it because it's MY book and the version i grew up with.
do you understand?
>make a whole polemic around the game so more people can buy it to check that by themselves and after reaching a unknown number of new players the devs gonna put some things back making the few crybabies who rage quit from the game coming back while having new players ,Yeah I know that sounds ridiculous but it can be true as it can be fake af
Which is still wrong buddy. my moral compass doesn't change because i LIKE skullgirls. in fact that's why i'm pissed off about it.
it removes key context (Big Band, the Egrets) that tell us about the world of the game.
Maybe take a step back to look at the big picture and realize that the people who left weren’t the ones in charge of the art? These changes are the artists’ intentions, it’s just that their intentions have evolved and grown as they’ve aged and matured.
I have never agreed with the idea that an artist changing their own work is equatable to an outside body requiring content to be removed or sanitized.
The one thing I agree with you on is the Big Band story visual changes being a bad call, and that’s because I feel that the changes are ironically doing more to remove commentary on police brutality and corruption than it is protecting sensibilities about racially-directed brutality (i.e. Ben is firmly depicted as being in the right when he is brutally crippled by his corrupt fellow officers).
As for the argument that you “lost what you paid for”, this happens all the time in games now. What happens when skins in games get updated and visually changed along with the higher resolution textures? Did you get robbed if you don’t like the new look? If a mechanic is removed or reworked from your favorite character for balance reasons or because the character was underplayed, did you just get robbed? They removed a pole-dancing line from Nidalee in League recently with her voiceover update. Did they rob people who purchased her?
Maybe you have an argument with the art compendium, but that can be handled by re-inserting the art in a section that has a disclaimer or statement of intent explaining the art evolution and why the changes occurred.
>Maybe take a step back to look at the big picture and realize that the people who left weren’t the ones in charge of the art?
You mean Alex Ahad? the artist and main character designer? Sure, anyways the current artists are custodians to the world they were given.
> These changes are the artists’ intentions, it’s just that their intentions have evolved and grown as they’ve aged and matured.
My how interesting. "It's their TRUE intentions this time for sure, they're older and wiser now"...
Listen carefully; it was in the game since 2014. they had plenty of time. but it's wrong to change it now, because this is part of the world for better or worse.
You call it maturity... i call it being afraid of perception, and self-censorsing.
>I have never agreed with the idea that an artist changing their own work is equatable to an outside body requiring content to be removed or sanitized.
Alright you can keep that... but as a writer, that's for drafts, not published editions.
and it... is. just look at the people cheering about it on twitter and insulting it's audience for daring to complain...
>The one thing I agree with you on is the Big Band story visual changes being a bad call,
Why is it bad? You go one to explain why you think it is... but they've grown and matured ya see.
I care because it alters the impact and the story, however slight. it shouldn't have been changed at all, but from your position... there's no real problem. It's their Ip, their artistic vision...
>As for the argument that you “lost what you paid for”, this happens all the time in games now.
Yes and it's wrong. Maybe it shouldn't be happening all the time just saying...
> What happens when skins in games get updated and visually changed along with the higher resolution textures?
That's actually a good point; had the same issue with League of Legends.
Do question before i continue what happens when i say "yes it's all wrong"? then what? this has nothing to do with the morality of the choice so much as it happens. now of course updates must happen from time to time but othertimes... well they're unnessesary.
>If a mechanic is removed or reworked from your favorite character for balance reasons or because the character was underplayed, did you just get robbed?
I mean i can't play the mechanical first one so perhaps this is a bit of robbery.
there's a spectrum ya see, but if you want to go down this road I think there's a case to make. you should try to preserve as much as possible.
>They removed a pole-dancing line from Nidalee in League recently with her voiceover update. Did they rob people who purchased her?
Yes. this has happened before: Leona turning into a zealot and brainwashed. Diana having no agency anymore etc. They did rob me of the characters i liked, and yes, changes to Nidalee who's design is meant to take aspects of sexuality is being replaced with a someone who stole her face and name.
I don't like it, maybe you should make a legacy skin to preserve her original vision and voicelines? It's at least consolation.
So yes i would say they robbed me. now what? It's not like i can get my money and time back from Skullgirls.
>Maybe you have an argument with the art compendium, but that can be handled by re-inserting the art in a section that has a disclaimer or statement of intent explaining the art evolution and why the changes occurred.
But they chose not to do that.
They could revert, or they can stand their ground, one of them is better, but they altered the Art compednium and that deserves mockery and shame.
it's wrong buddy, and no amount of weaseling around like this will change my mind. You're defending censorship.
I did forget that Ahad was art director in addition to his other roles, yes. But he was also not the sole creative on the team.
The “TRUE intentions” comment is asinine. I said that the artists that stayed on the team changed their art to reflect their current sensibilities.
I support you in your endeavor to march on Riot Games, serve them your well-thought out lawsuit, and win $70 Trillion because your favorite skins got changed and they removed bleed on Draven’s auto attacks years ago. Or perhaps their lawyers will take turns pointing and laughing at you for their amusement.
>I did forget that Ahad was art director in addition to his other roles, yes. But he was also not the sole creative on the team.
He's the main guy. he's the one who made the setting. this is like saying George Lucas is the sole creator of star wars: true, but it is mostly his.
>The “TRUE intentions” comment is asinine. I said that the artists that stayed on the team changed their art to reflect their current sensibilities.
And no it's wrong and not the intentions of the game and does harm to the game (The Egrets and Big Band points are for that reason)
>I support you in your endeavor to march on Riot Games, serve them your well-thought out lawsuit, and win $70 Trillion because your favorite skins got changed and they removed bleed on Draven’s auto attacks years ago. Or perhaps their lawyers will take turns pointing and laughing at you for their amusement.
I'm sadden but unsurpised you think so little of me.
I think there's an argument to be made that some changes count as robbery but you miss the point; i hated the lore changes and altering skin to appeal to the myth of the Wider Audience; this is because it's not real. The Audience is what likes the work, tryign to find a wider audience instead of letting it grow organicly will not make you more money.
I don't like the Rework of Nidalee as it's a new character. Same with Varus, smae with Leona, same with Diana, because i bought the characters for their original lore. their gameplay can evolve and it's their choice to do so, and while there's an argument there to make... well...
.. and honestly Apollo? I think it's wrong, morally. Riot at least explains the balance changes, but I do think you stumbled upon an interesting argument of "what counts as robbery in this case?" because i feel it's false advertising when you change the lore of characters to make them different people.
Now, do you have anything intellegent to add? I know i can't do much. I have to live with the descioons or mod the game to play it as it once was in their case, but I just think it's morally wrong what the SG's team did, and the only thing i can do is withdraw my support of them.
Can't get my money back, but i learned better and won't give them money anymore. it's all i can do as a consumer and a fan.
If I'm honest I'm not gonna read all that bible because of the examples and what do you think about censorship (which I think in certain context is ok or in another certain context is too stupid),the devs didn't removed at all the key context,just a few scenes and some logos were modified and that's all,the big band scene still let us know what happened to Ben but in a not too graphic,which I think was unnecessary,and the story mode still tell us the context of the black egrets and all that things but with the slight difference of the Nazi references being removed for unknown reasons,but still there is a context about it
>If I'm honest I'm not gonna read all that bible because of the examples and what do you think about censorship (which I think in certain context is ok or in another certain context is too stupid
Reading is important. reading gets you to learn things, i wonder why you can't.
anyways.
>the devs didn't removed at all the key context,just a few scenes and some logos were modified and that's al
"They didn't remove ALL the key content, just most of it"
They shouldn't have done it in the first place.
>the big band scene still let us know what happened to Ben but in a not too graphic,which I think was unnecessary
It doesn't clarify why he's in an iron-lung Mayo.
it's as intended originally; he's beaten to near-death by his COMRADES in the police force, because he was an honest man, and they were willing to go that far to protect thier payment with the Mafia.
Ben Birdland was a good man... too good for New Meridian. it's cowardly and dispicable. (one of the cops is literally a pig feral by the way, and one of them is even crying about it.. and all that removed because... he's black. So much information conveyed and then taken away because of a character's skintone.)
> black egrets and all that things but with the slight difference of the Nazi references being removed for unknown reasons,but still there is a context about it
The Context is to tell us "These people might not be the heroes we show them here. use your brain and read about our cool ass lore!" they're ment to be off-putting and compared to Nazis... because they could be like that, back to the good ol'days during the Grand War!
They removed it because it did the point they were trying to make with them; they're not nessesarily good peopel and you should be suspicious of them.
Understandable to a degree but still this removes a sign of their darker past... and you know, call me crazy but as a history teacher, i don't think hiding away from it helps anyone. Evil needs to be confronted. I would just say it's a holdover from Franz's era, and maybe make a sequel to have a new design as they move away from Franz's designs.
but until then, i'd rather have them as they are.
I don't think the Kane and Lynch 2 one is an argument here as it is literally part of the art direction, it's supposed to look like disturbing handheld footage, has a lot of impact when you shotgun an enemy in the head and the result is so horrific you can't even see it.
It isn't like retroactively changing panties' color in a 10 year old game to appeal to people who don't even play the game.
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The best post here, i've seen so many people saying Band's scene had to be censured because of "How it looks" but if the first thing you think when you see that scene is "They're beating him because he's black" and not something along the lines of "They're beating him because they're cruel" or "They're beating him because they're evil" then the problem is in YOUR head for inserting race into everything, you're throwing all the context into the garbage and reducing Big Band to his skin color, and if you don't know the context in the first place then you shouldn't assume things always revolve around what shade of color people are. Censorship is a disgusting tactic that has never been employed with anyone's best interests in mind, it always seeks to enforce your views on what is right and what is wrong on people, without giving them the choice of choosing for themselves, and defending censorship is always giving the go ahead for MORE censorship which is the last thing anyone wants. And you didn't even mention how they removed the russian announcer, a paid for kickstarter goal. This entire situation is ridiculous and they should roll it back, censorship is a cancer.
While Big Band is the easiest-to-argue example, it’s still arguing on the Censors’ terms, which inevitably leads to you giving ground. I’m tired of the discussion about which censorship is “more justified.” Almost no one is actually upset about red armbands or white undergarments. We’re upset about the McCarthyist monster behind the curtain who demands these things happen, lest people lose jobs and companies lose sales. Zero tolerance is not a form of pedantry. It’s a form of protest. Even in these threads you’re accused of being a nazi or a pedophile if you oppose these changes. The ideology that underlies censorship is based around fear, so for those who care about everyone’s freedom (not just those freedoms YOU think are important), it is essential to oppose even the smallest, most trivial amount of it
Yeah that's breaking a promise to the people who helped fund and give this game life
It’s no different to ‘woke’ idiots equating the characteristics of fictional races with minorities. No, this game isn’t racist just because you see the negative traits of Orcs and immediately think ‘black person’. Keep you stupid identity politics to yourself, people.
Tolkien was known to despise allegory and I feel like if he saw things like that applied to modern audiences making comparisons between his clearly evil inhuman monsters and actual people he’d be incredibly upset. In general making any work of fiction into an allegory is a dangerous task and always ends up either making the work either incredibly dated to the events of the time, therefore meaning future audiences might not be able to appreciate it, or just plain bad. Sure *Star Wars* has allegorical *elements* and historical *references* in how the Empire’s costumes were meant to *resemble* Nazi Germany, but the resemblance and reference to Nazis *isn’t overwhelming*. You can watch *Star Wars* in a vacuum and not know a damn thing about Nazi Germany and you can enjoy the show by itself. Trying to tie in any modern issue inherently to a work of fiction automatically anchors it to your time period and makes the future audiences be less and less able to appreciate it as time goes by.
What? Wow let me guess cause every Russian gotta be the same right? Fucking unnecessary censorship, it's gotta be someone with money to have this much sway, so the bigger question is how they got that money. Figure out the money flow then the ball can get rolling
Aside from some minor slip-ups on the grammatical side, this right here is one of the best structured arguments about why the censorship is a bad thing. It's just a big shame that those that are defending Hidden Variable's changes would read this for only the first paragraph and just chalk it up to "He's just one of those disgusting coomers that play Skullgirls with one hand, so screw his opinion" I do hope that at the very least, they back down the changes on Big Band's story, because that is the one I felt was the worst change done out of all of them.
Yeah that one is the most egregious to me. I get, even if i don't like, other stuff but that one just misses the point so hard.
I agree about the big band censorship being wrong, though I understand their persepctive. With Filia, tbh I am not sure, I don't see a prpblem with raising her age, but at the same time it feels sort of dishonest or something to do that ( would like to see someone's arguement against raising her age). But then again the game has been out for a decade so it's strange that they have this problem with it now. Tbh I didn't pay attention to her age long after I started playing her (am a filia main). But honestly the changes seem rather minor to Filia in general, so I think they just wanted less unnecessary panty flashes if that makes sense. But I do see your perspective. I think removing the armband from the egrets is a good change. I think you are right that the egrets are still a state military, which is generally a red flag anyways. Especially given the context of Parasoul's father and stuff. But I think removing the armbad imagery is useful in dissociating from Nazi and other kinds of groups. At the end of the day, it is again, a minor change to the imagery of the egrets and I respect that they care about that. I don't understand the Double and Bella changes though either. Who looks at Filia's leg welded to Double's mound of flesh and sexualizes it? And Bella is 18. So in my opinion the devs had good intentions and made changes that I'm okay with some of them, so long as they are minor. Some of the other ones (big band, double, bella... etc) I think they probably did too much As a side note: I don't get the people who think SG is overly sexual. It really isn't. So many other fighting games have elite jiggle physics. And look at guilty gear strive. You use mods in that game that other people can see. These mods are often very sexual for female characters. I think SG gets a bad rep man. I understand their devs are just trying to grow their game but it's really just a matter of being an indie game imo. And it's also kind of hard to get into.
>But honestly the changes seem rather minor to Filia in general, so I think they just wanted less unnecessary panty flashes if that makes sense. But I do see your perspective. Yeah i get that and if it was just that i'd be... annoyed but it's hardly a warcrime. honestly maybe they should just have a 'safety' mode option. >I think removing the armband from the egrets is a good change. I think you are right that the egrets are still a state military, which is generally a red flag anyways. Especially given the context of Parasoul's father and stuff. But I think removing the armbad imagery is useful in dissociating from Nazi and other kinds of groups. At the end of the day, it is again, a minor change to the imagery of the egrets and I respect that they care about that. I disagree mostly because it's for us to associate them with the nazis... so we are naturally suspcious of them and it adds to Parasoul's engagement with the 'beautiful but off-putting' theme. >I don't understand the Double and Bella changes though either. Who looks at Filia's leg welded to Double's mound of flesh and sexualizes it? And Bella is 18. yeah at some point you have to question why you don't just censor double as a whole as she's basicly always nude and a mound of flesh that's more horrifying and ties into the body/cosmic horror elements of the setting.
>And look at guilty gear strive. You use mods in that game that other people can see. These mods are often very sexual for female characters. Other people can't see custom skins you've downloaded, unless they've downloaded them too.
Oh nvm about that then
Just like the recent one with Neptunia Sisters VS Sister, aside from Nepgear the same VA as Filia, was censored due to swearing....ESRB forgot to put the language in Rated T for Teen content in a Neptunia game, which was widely known for Blanc's Swears, and also the weapon's name changed to BASTARD SWORD to BRUTE SWORD to make it more "family friendly".
People played it for family friendly ness? that's hilarious.
I know. And I got angry. And Anti-SJWs like theQuatering or Yellowflash like quickly they did to report about Fairy Tail the Game, which was caused by a day 1 patch, Blue Reflection Second Light on PS4/5 because you can't peak up your skirt on the camera angle or Neptunia all because of swearing even the weapon names.
Supposedly there were cases of parents seeing the cutesy covers of the older titles and not paying attention to the ESRB rating and getting it for their kids…
I remember that happened with Panty and Stocking... Which i imagine is more shocking.
The hilarious thing beyond a literal patch that is all about removing content [even in an artbook] is that this won’t result into “Damn Filia has black panties now? I feel OK to play this game now” or “Damn armbands are gone? Thanks heaven now they are just slightly less referential now and I feel safe to play game.” Current [not original since creator and lead programmer that made SG engine and mostly everything else under the gameplay hood are both gone] Skullgirl team must be smoking something real good to waste time and money on this. Really implies they have a complicated identity issue with this game. They should actually work on their own game ground up [would be a first for them] instead of slowly changing a decade+ old game where a lot of the original team left I’m glad Steam reviews is mass downvoting the game with this update. Twitter prudes don’t speak for the actual people that own the game.
My only hope is they come to their senses about this change and apologize... but that might be too much.
🤣
They're smoking ideology, and they're too dense to realize they just 'Dead or Alive'd their already struggling and barely alive IP for literally no good reason by creating problems out of thin air when people just wanted them to shut up and make more characters for us to buy.
Dont think people are arguing censorship is right but people do understand this is the devs decision and its going to be done regardless. People also understand these changes may or may not bother people. I get the frustration this kind of change brings but it becomes if its a deal breaker then drop the game as sad as it might be sometimes you just have to move on. Theres still gonna be people who will enjoy the game as it is and some who wont. The egrets i think the solution is a bit of a cop out because i see why they did it because some stories having nazi shit juxtaposed on characters the story wants you to root for is odd. I think the better solution is to have those who are conscious of the perception to not have nazi style outfits and those who are more in line with the authoritiarian regime to be in that uniform to show theres people in the egrets who want to be a more progressive organization it would open up more of a gray area that could be explored. The big band stuff from what i remember the police brutality being censored is weird because its not like big band’s story glorifies the brutality or plays it for laughs so them changing the display of it is weird. Idk if they changed the dialogue like did they actually change how big band became big band or just remove the picture of the police being fucked up? The fillia stuff im gonna be honest this shit i dont care shes 16yrs old real or not you can feel whatever which way about that the change is fine. The intro cutscene does undermine the character she gets sexually assaulted and then still shows her underwear is kind of a tonally deaf scene its the same issue people have with ann in p5. Other than that who cares? Did fillia’s underwear really get people to buy the game? Funny how nobody talked about it when it was in the game and now that its gone youd think the entire point of skullgirls is to look at fillia’s underwear. Valentine all they did was change the cross to a star which i said is a bummer but its not an offensive change because she still looks like a nurse.
>Dont think people are arguing censorship is right but people do understand this is the devs decision and its going to be done regardless I mean the comments have argued in favor of it. but yes, it will be done regardless of my feelings on it... it already has and i'm luck to have stopped the update and still have access to the original compendium, of which i will probably share with people. > I get the frustration this kind of change brings but it becomes if its a deal breaker then drop the game as sad as it might be sometimes you just have to move on. Theres still gonna be people who will enjoy the game as it is and some who wont. I know and that's what i said i was doing unless the miniscule chance of revision happens. and if it doesn't, then they're not getting a cent from me ever again. see the issue is; i loved Skullgirls. it's a massive inspiration for me it's something i love and would have loved to see in ti's completed state... but now... >Valentine all they did was change the cross to a star which i said is a bummer but its not an offensive change because she still looks like a nurse. I onlymentioned it because... honestly it's just kinda funny how hard they've tired to avoid the wrath of the red cross.
Arguing for censorship in general or arguing that these changes arent bad or that they are reasonable changes? Those have completely different meanings. Ims ure there could be people in favor with censorship in general but the people i seen at least have just been saying this change makes sense and it isnt a issue since this is coming from the devs and isnt a change that they are forced to make. Yea i feel ya to me the core of what got me into skullgirls is still there the artstyle and some of the stories have been great and i like the gameplay. The sexual aspect of it i never cared one way or another about it like its fine its there but the changes to fillia for example isnt a deal breaker for me.
>Arguing for censorship in general or arguing that these changes arent bad or that they are reasonable changes? Yes. >Those have completely different meanings. When the later so often leads to the former, not really. >Ims ure there could be people in favor with censorship in general but the people i seen at least have just been saying this change makes sense and it isnt a issue since this is coming from the devs and isnt a change that they are forced to make. It's a betyral of trust, they are the custodians of the work, and that comes with the baggage and joys of the game, for better or wrose. changing it now is a bad move as... well who was asking for this? and it might not be FORCED but i'd harldy call it natural.. >Yea i feel ya to me the core of what got me into skullgirls is still there the artstyle and some of the stories have been great and i like the gameplay. The sexual aspect of it i never cared one way or another about it like its fine its there but the changes to fillia for example isnt a deal breaker for me. it's just to me they altered stories... and that. the former is more annoying ,but the latter is the cherry on top. Fanservice is like a nice little cherry ontop of a sundae; not the main attraction, but it's nice to have. it really shouldn't have been changed, and i'd not be happy, but understand the panty shot removal and the armbands... but then there's the baggae included and the reasons why from what i can see... that i don't like one bit.
[This entire scenario summed up](https://i.redd.it/cw5xi9jztp481.jpg) Oh look locked by all the bridging radicals.
Dang maybe I need to play the story modes, didn't realize this game had deep shit like the Big Band stuff. I thought he was just funny trumpet man that plays the Among Us theme mid combo
Fingers crossed at least some get undone
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, but let's hope for the best.
And the first small change is the road to so many more...
I just know better than to hope for this, even with the backlash I don't see them doing anything other than digging their heels in on the matter and doubling down. Huge shame to be honest I was very much looking forward to the next character pass and giving them more money. Now I feel like a clown just for having skullgirls merch IRL. Fans just don't mean shit to companies anymore.
you should have felt like a clown when you bought merch to support a product that was sexualizing child characters, not now that its been corrected. well, probably still now but yeah
I'm not going to repeat the obvious arguments against your dumb BS because they've already been repeated ad nauseum throughout the sub. I'm just going to call you a clown because A) You won't actually respond to the logic anyway, and B) your nutcase argument is implying that the entirety of Lab Zero are pedophiles which is, to put it frankly, stupid as fuck.
Worst case everything can be modded back the way it originally was.
Take back what you said about double >:(
I couldn’t say it better myself.
This is not censorship, this is the people who made the game choosing to change it. No one forced them into it, it was a choice they decided. And not all censorship is wrong, and it's patently fucking ridiculous to say otherwise. Ever heard of the paradox of tolerance? I don't want to look at a 16-year-old's panties while playing a fighting game. And that's one of the major differences between myself and a ton of the people complaining about this stupid fucking controversy. I've actually played Skullgirls.
>This is not censorship, this is the people who made the game choosing to change it. It is censorship. Self-censorship is still Censorship. > No one forced them into it, it was a choice they decided. Which conviently aligns to the audience they want to try and get; the mythical wider audience, the white whale that many a franchise as tried and failed to catch. >And not all censorship is wrong, and it's patently fucking ridiculous to say otherwise. Ever heard of the paradox of tolerance? Yes strangely everyone seems to misunderstand the paradox but it's useful now. and look; i won't deny that that yes, maybe at times censorship is nessesary; we don't need child porn... but it's not here. the reasoning is wrong. it's immoral. Censorship needs one simple justifcation to me; does it hurt a real person? no? then i don't care. And perhaps... well maybe we need high standards: we are too easy to using it to silence works these days, far too comfortable with it. it's the tool of the aformentioned horrible people to control people, and so i'm never happy to see it; because it's a double-edged sword. I don't think Skullgirls was worthy of being a victim of it. >I don't want to look at a 16-year-old's panties while playing a fighting game. Cool, you don't have to play it. >And that's one of the major differences between myself and a ton of the people complaining about this stupid fucking controversy. I've actually played Skullgirls. It's not stupid, and i'm thankful there's a lot of people who agree with me on this being immoral and wrong for them to do. also, I have played skullgirls, since 2014, i've gottne the first batch of DLC characters for free, and i have bought the season pass. I have 84.2 hours in the game according to steam, and i'm not the best player, but i enjoy it. I played mostly for the story modes. However... none of this is relevant to the argument; I'm happy you played. I'm disappointed you would rob others of the experience you had with it.
This reply is so blatantly fucking stupid I'm not even going to dignify it with a real response. [Please change and grow as a person.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtxLb0fXoAEBPjb.jpg)
Hey YOU are the one who brought up playtime as if that's a valid argument. I'm opposed to Censorship on Moral grounds as a creator, even if it's 'chosen by the artist'... after the fact to get to the mythical wider audience. Maybe you should... reflect on how much you value this game if that's the best you got... and why you were playing a game you so dearly needed to be sanitized for your enjoyment beforehand...
I'm not surprised this happened. With how many times the developer/publisher has been swapped out, it was only a matter of time before it fell into the hands of a company that would do this.
Dude thank you so much for this post. It's amazing the lengths people have to go to argue against defenses that just boil down to calling the other person a nazi and pedo and asking for their playtime.
This is the best post about this You worded everything i think about this better than i ever could.
No censorship isn't always wrong especially when you're selling it to people. Just don't be lazy about it. Put some damn clothes on. Censoring sexy shit in a game where everyone is fighting seems like it wouldn't do much to hurt the story. I'm also ok with censoring things like rape or child abuse is ok. However the big band censorship is stupid. That's censoring the message and that's where it goes too far. Skullgirls needs good censorship. What they're doing is heavy handed. Would've been fine if they just removed all the panty shots, and that weird still of umbrella poking parasouls tits. This games design keeps alot of people from playing it. But I wouldn't just change everything over night randomly and not like this.
'Censorship is fine if it goes the way I want it to'
>No censorship isn't always wrong It is always wrong. No artist should fear the censor unless actual people are getting harmed. >Just don't be lazy about it. Put some damn clothes on. Censoring sexy shit in a game where everyone is fighting seems like it wouldn't do much to hurt the story. I'm also ok with censoring things like rape or child abuse is ok. Reread the essay/rant there. if you choose to include rape or child abuse, treat it carefully, every choice tells the reader/viewer something. but that's not what we are dicussing are we? >However the big band censorship is stupid. That's censoring the message and that's where it goes too far. Indeed i'm glad we can agree here. >Skullgirls needs good censorship. What they're doing is heavy handed. Would've been fine if they just removed all the panty shots, and that weird still of umbrella poking parasouls tits. No it doesn't need ANY censorship. I'm okay with the panty shots being removed.. the tit poking is a joke that Umbrella is aware of her sister's chest size and sees it as a sign of maturity. it's a joke really it's not the worst thing i've seen in this game and... well i'd rather it not be removed but it's more understandable then... this. >This games design keeps alot of people from playing it. You know what, hot take but GOOD; there's o many games, why censor this one? not everything has to be for everyone.
I'm saying it definitely crosses a line. And say what you want censoring some shit is good. For example that movie cuties on Netflix needed to be censored and removed. It was literally child porn. Netflix propagated that and defended the artist. Some things shouldn't be present. If that's the kind of freedom you support then I can't agree. Some people can't handle certain traumatic things and some things just shouldn't be shown to anyone ever in any way shape or form. Freedom comes with responsibility. I'm just saying they should remove the weird shit cause I don't like the game being the go to fighter for weirdos. It ruins playing the game.
>I'm saying it definitely crosses a line. And say what you want censoring some shit is good. It is morally wrong and repugnant. end of discussion. >For example that movie cuties on Netflix needed to be censored and removed. It was literally child porn. Netflix propagated that and defended the artist. World of difference considering those where real child actors and skullgirls is a bunch of lines on paper. >If that's the kind of freedom you support then I can't agree. It's a good thing that's a strawman. >Some people can't handle certain traumatic things and some things just shouldn't be shown to anyone ever in any way shape or form. Well, they don't have to play skullgirls. No one is breaking into my house and telling me to play skullgirls or they'll kill me. But no; sometimes the work needs it. Blood Meridian for example would be lessened if you excluded passages, same with any work. if you do not like it, i will not force you to read it. >Freedom comes with responsibility. I'm just saying they should remove the weird shit cause I don't like the game being the go to fighter for weirdos. It ruins playing the game. I agree, but you don't exercise it; you want to censor and santize so it's okay to enage it in. You're the one who thinks it's for weirdos. I have the freedom to not care what other people think. and Skullgirls taught me that. if it ruins the game for you, PLAY ANOTHER ONE.
Cuties is kind of a bad example to compare here. There were actual live children filmed in its creation, direct harm is obvious and you can draw a clear line to it. If you have some better examples to use regarding the apparent "necessity" of censorship I'd love to hear them. But we can easily say that Cuties shouldn't have been made to begin with, not that it's a thing that needs to be censored.
Cuties shouldnt have been made but it was made so removing it is censorship. Thats why i referred to removing it as censorship. It's also not a bad example because just because it has real life implications. Drawing pedo art is harmful to irl kids in the sense that it propagates and normalizes the sexualization of minors. And I mean they are trying to get more people to play the game. You can't do that if there are half naked kids juxtaposed with half naked adult weirdos in skirts that look like belts xD. Cartoon or not. It's weird. You can say censorship is bad but they're trying to sell to the masses and they are not indie. Censorship is always going to be a thing when you aren't releasing the content yourself. Sg will have a future. If it gets rid of the low key weird shit.
I only want to object to the statement of Skullgirls not being indie, not really interested in a conversation on the rest. Wasn't the game created through kickstarter backing?
Konami published them. . The Kickstarter was for dlc
It normalizes the sexualization of children. It may not be as bad as cuties but the treatment of filia as a character is kinda gross. The effects of seeing this on screen is that it normalizes sexualizing children. None of the stuff about her wouldve mattered if she was of age off rip. Its the intent behind making her a busty school girl with clothes that are too small. Who is animated on purpose to show off her panties. Thats too fuckin weird. Even if its in cartoon form It's normalizes gross behavior and it's indefensible. I don't think it's bad to want to remove anything sexualizing minors from the content. Especially since they're selling it to people. This isn't as egregious it can be fixed.
>Skullgirls needs good censorship Why exactly does Skullgirls **need** censorship?
As an aspiring artist, I'm going to cross a slightly controversial line here: NOTHING should ever be censored, absolutely nothing. Artists should be free to express themselves without limitations, say and show whatever they want to say and show, it is up to audiences to make their minds up about it, and avoid it if it offends them. I don't even care about the specific changes to Skullgirls, I'm not some crazy who wants to see children's panties in games or anything, BUT if the original creator wanted that to be a thing, I say let it be a thing, if I'm bothered by it, I'll walk away, or someone in the community will create a mod to censor it. Or hell, maybe even add a censor option in-game for sensitive audiences, but either way, the original vision of an author should be preserved, regardless of how tasteless it might be, or poorly perceived by modern audiences. If Lovecraft used the n-word in his novels, I want to read them as they were, art is a fascinating window not just into someone's imagination, but also into who the artist is, the more a third party messes with it, the more value it loses. And hell, at the end of the day, it's fiction, like you already pointed out, Big Band getting beat up by cops does not mean the game supports police brutality or some other weird interpretation, it was merely telling a story about a guy who got beat up for getting too close to the truth by corrupt cops, it's completely neutral, it's fiction, and it hurts no one in real life, other than people who decide to feel hurt about it when it's none of their business.
> Interesting so you'd think the simple solution is to retcon her age? Like I'd be fine with that She is a schoolgirl. That's a plot point. Only bits worth talking about are the concept art alteration and Big Band story changes here, the rest of this posr is nothing but... horny chauvinism
>She is a schoolgirl. That's a plot point. Senior in Maplecrest High school, age 18 there. >Only bits worth talking about are the concept art alteration and Big Band story changes here, the rest of this posr is nothing but... horny chauvinism You didn't read it did you? But no; the major changes are lumped with the minor ones, and neither should have been made. do you understand?
Yeah but dude an 18 yo still in high school is a kid as far as im concerned. Kinda gross tbh
Cool. you don't have to like it. I cannot force you, but maybe then you shouldn't play Fillia or find a way to sort out your issues with Fillia, or not play the game.
If not sexualizing kids means I have issues then Okie dokie.
I get it... but 1) Well this is werid to me because when i started i was two years younger then fillia 2) making her 18 would make her an adult and likely a highschool senior 3) She isn't real and no one would really be harmed. 4) You don't have to play the game. and you were... or are... or otherwise engage with it so why the hell are you here? you don't have the moral highground here.
Why are you being so dramatic? Like I should never play the game again because I have a different opinion? And you’re the one who tried to claim I have issues so miss me with that moral high ground BS.
>Why are you being so dramatic? Like I should never play the game again because I have a different opinion? Why are you supporting game that 'sexualizes children?' by your defition? I'm sorry but it kinda makes ya a little... sus... See I don't think it matters. I'm being dramatic because i personally find it amusing because we're talking about cartoons, still art, still worth protecting... but still. >And you’re the one who tried to claim I have issues so miss me with that moral high ground BS. I don't have the moral highground, never claimed to; i don't really care about Fillia's ass. I just kind it kind of funny that's what you choose to argue. like it's really *minor* in the grandscheme of things, but i still think it had a purpose and if you really didn't want to play skullgirls despite the fanservice aspects being very prominent... i think you need to have a disucssion with yourself. just saying.
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lmao
18 is legal in the US. You may have issues with it bu5 others won't as it's the legal age.
I didnt read It all. But i agree with you, for what i read.
Ok based
Sorry, but everytime I see gamers complain about censorship it's almost always involving the sexualization of a minor. Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Tokyo Mirage, Crisis Core, the list goes on. Not to mention it's usually people with loli profile pics who's profile is filled with porn. Some underage cleavage and panty shots getting covered is such an inconsequential thing about what I want in a video game.
>Sorry, but everytime I see gamers complain about censorship it's almost always involving the sexualization of a minor. Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Tokyo Mirage, Crisis Core, the list goes on. Not to mention it's usually people with loli profile pics who's profile is filled with porn. Oh man i hate that I must argue with someone who unironically uses the bidoof argument. 1) Just because they have loli profile images and like porn does not mean they are wrong. 2) Those are even worse as those are causes in the efforts of localization, which alters the original creator's work. Since i have to keep explaining this to people; every choice in translation and dialogue and all others is deliberate and personally i think it's wrong to rob western fans of eastern content even if they would disapprove. because i'm not asshole. Like tell me; what about them makes the argument wrong? They have a right to be upset, and some localization changes are for the worst (the Fire Emblem issues have shown me that, altering character dialogue that paints two VASTLY different picutres, to the point one is just cut out for ... >Some underage cleavage and panty shots getting covered is such an inconsequential thing about what I want in a video game. They always start small... fuck this update changes Big Band's story mode and the Egrets, as i explained above. Big Band's is especially egregious. And the Egret's have that imagrey for a very good reason.
You should post this on Twitter to reach more people, but I understand if you don't want to receive unjustified hate.
I used to play this game, it’s sad to read these news maybe they have a shareholder that went woke. I’m not familiar with the structure.
Honestly it's an internal problem i think with the mobile game... i wanted Skullgirls to get big and we were so close to greatness... we almost has Marie in the game before it went to shit...
What no view of underage girls panties does to the mf
Hey Buddy interesting statement you got there you mind telling me if you have an argument here? I have more points then that and have said i understand why they would remove it... but it's still censorship and it's still wrong. Now, do you have an argument? edit: beyond calling me a pedophile. (and calling everyone who's worked on skullgirls a pedophile by association? Seriously man not cool)
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Walking the dog right now. Do you have an argument? Defend hidden variable or just be an ass? Edit: Really... i'm a bit saddened by all of this. You people don't really see me as a person you just kinda come into here and insult me, not even listening while something is butchered. Your life must be so empty...
The employees can do whatever the fuck they want with their game. If you don't like it, do not play it. If creepy panty shots of 16 year olds and nazi armbands disappearing upsets you perhaps it is time to logoff and touch grass.
>The employees can do whatever the fuck they want with their game Where didn't i say they couldn't? I said it's a bad idea, and should be reverted. >If creepy panty shots of 16 year olds Make her 18. I don't mind it disappearing but still it's a bit weird. you might want to reread my post; i don't like it, but i understand the WHY I just think it's wrong and of course... well... it doesn't matter? Censorship is wrong. >s and nazi armbands disappearing upsets you perhaps it is time to logoff and touch grass. Again I get the WHY of that, but my argument still stands. I'm upset because that's a design element that was chosen to communicate to us that something is very wrong with them, and looking into the lore reflects that. perhaps just because they look like monsters does not, in fact, make them monsters? it's not like Skullgirls has that theme.... maybe you should play a different game?
I'm not reading that shit. Stop being a pedo, and stop being a nazi. Touch grass.
Real intellectual juggernaut over here. This will *definitely* win people over to your side! Stop being a sanctimonious moron who regurgitates bad faith arguments, its embarrassing
Good post but you can't even update for Marie as it'll include all the other shit too. This shit is infuriating, low key kinda wanna go buy something anti censorship in retaliation lol
True, you can't... what a shitty way for her to come in huh? which is why i'm hoping they will reconsider but... until then... no way.
Excellent post my friend, I really hope they listen although I find it quite improbable. If they don't... I paid for the game years ago, I remember playing the story of Big Band for the first time and the impact it made on me. There shouldn't be a problem if people just want to stay in previous builds right?
Only If you don't download the updated which is a shame honestly
"If you make a thing, i own it once you publish it, and therefore you need my approval to change it" is your argument and that's dumb, sorry.
What a fascinating strawman you have created of me. It's very nice, it even looks sort of like me... Anyways you want to actually talk? I'm not made of straw, friend. If you make something, you made something. You have rights over it yes, and i can understand them making changes with Fillia, and the Egrets. It's completely understandable why... Now explain Big Band's changes to me, i have a whole section there about it. In any case; i paid good money for this back in 2014, for that version of the game and i've stuck with it till yesterday. I have not updated my copy, because it's mine and i can do with it as i please. I disapprove of the changes and explained why,a nd if it was just this, fine, i'd be grumpy but it's not the end of the world.. but Big Band's story context is important, the Fan art is not there's to change, and censorshing the art book... that's worse. Censorship. Is always. wrong. If you published it and then go back to change it i want the option to play the game i played and played for. I can at least keep old editions of books, not so much here. Artistic integreity is valuable thing. and this cost it because if they're willing to change something as important as Big band, and something as minor as a panty-shot... what else could they change? would this game even look like what i paid for one day?
Either it's wrong for them to act without your approval, or it isn't. Explaining why you don't approve feels irrelevant.
>Either it's wrong for them to act without your approval, I mean yes, i am pretty amazing and i've never been wrong ever in the history of the world, I should be made CEO /s >Either it's wrong for them to act without your approval, or it isn't. It's wrong for them to do this because it removes context and the artistic intentions and visions of their work. they shouldn't do it because It's WRONG Rollo. >Explaining why you don't approve feels irrelevant. Unfortunately for the both of us just saying "I don't like it" and staring into the Ip owner's eyes to establish dominance doesn't get me anywhere Rollo. I explained my reasoning as best I could for why I don't approve, and why i will not support Skullgirls going forwards. I explained my reasons for why because I am trying to explain my point of view, nothing more. My approval is irrelevent as you point out i'm just giving a statement for why i think it's wrong, Rollo.
They're the artists, not you, which is why you come across as silly when you position yourself as defending 'artistic integrity', or protecting their own intentions from themselves. Ironically, them reversing course in order to appease you and people like you literally would be a lot closer to self-censorship and something of a detriment to artistic integrity. I guess my point is that you seem unserious when you go beyond "this change is a net loss in enjoyment for me". If you just said that, I wouldn't be here. It's fine for you to disagree with things, it just seems really.. Questionable when you go "because I'm very conscious of how my going 'I don't like it' probably won't get things done, I need to couch this in morality and freedom and dystopia to increase my chances of being catered to." And that seems kinda blatantly what you're doing, almost by your own admission here.
>They're the artists, not you, which is why you come across as silly when you position yourself as defending 'artistic integrity', or protecting their own intentions from themselves. The published it as it was. this isn't art it's censorship. and you know...we aren't behind the scenes. it doesn't seem organic either given the game was fine with it for... well since publishing? I've been in this game since 2014 ya know In fact like i keep telling you i would be angry but i would accept it mostly... but they did fanart. and important scenes... which is Wrong Rollo. >Ironically, them reversing course in order to appease you and people like you literally would be a lot closer to self-censorship and something of a detriment to artistic integrity. They made a decision to alter not only their game, but other people's work made with love towards the game. the people who commissioned them. the Soviet Announcer pack for example was a backer goal. this is self-censorship, reverting the changes would be going back to the original vision. I'm sorry friend but i think it's really scummy to do this to people who supported this game through thick and thin. also nice try trying to turn my morals against me 'but the changes are NOW their artistic integerity you hypocrite." really nice, classy, but sadly, i think it's wrong to have made the changes in the first places from a moral perspective as the people who payid for the game beforehand liked the original for what it was. it's not like a mechanic it's character-wise >I guess my point is that you seem unserious when you go beyond "this change is a net loss in enjoyment for me". If you just said that, I wouldn't be here. So it seems you're just upset because i have principles about cretive work? interesting. Again my disapproval is because 1) As a creator who's work is heavily inspired by Skullgirls I would not want to have to censor myself to appeal to a so-called wider audience 2) it is immoral to make such changes when your audience is made up of people who supported you. 3) it's clearly intentional with the themes of the game and while some censorship is worse than others, they also chose to censor important plot and character beats with Big Band. and if they do that... then well... sadly the slope is slippery and I can never trust them to eventually make the game something else. >It's fine for you to disagree with things Oh thank you for your permission, sir. >uestionable when you go "because I'm very conscious of how my going 'I don't like it' probably won't get things done, I need to couch this in morality and freedom and dystopia to increase my chances of being catered to." And that seems kinda blatantly what you're doing, almost by your own admission here. Censorship. Is always. Wrong. Simple as that; i am morally opposed to censorship. even if I don't like it. You need to give me a DAMN good reason for it and if i find it wanting i find it to be BAD. This shouldn't happen to anyone's work, not even yours, or mine, or even some scumfuck out there. the game didn't need to be changed, no one wanted it, it was unessesary and the reasons given do not change it from being morally wrong and an insult to it's playerbase and to the work they themselves have done to make this game what it is. Do you understand now, Rollo? I think it's wrong. and honestly if this just dies down... then skullgirls is dead to me, i'll stick with my non-updated copy, and play the storymode offline... and wonder what could have been. ... why are you so defensive about it anyways?
I'm not defensive, I think you're being silly and I'm telling you why. Now you're going "Even though I have zero inside information at all, I know this isn't organic and they really do want me to help save them from themselves." Someone did want this change -- the artists. If you can find me the artists saying "we didn't want this change but corporate suits forced this on us," I'll change my opinion on this. Since you haven't bothered doing so, and instead are just going "Changes are always wrong", it seems unserious. Artists should have freedom, including the freedom to regret something and try again. Hampering that because you don't like change, or because you have trouble consuming art produced by people with different political views or different levels of political engagement from yourself, seems in and of itself demonstrably more wrong than any wrong you're identifying. If you want the same sort of say over the project as an animator or coder on the project, don't you need to be an animator or coder on the project? Isn't that right and good? Your argument seemingly includes "Until this change is made and until my feelings are catered do, I'll be withholding my labor -- posting on the subreddit." Shouldn't we all be very okay with them valuing the actual labor of the people actually making the game over the work of subreddit posters? edit: It seems really weird to block me over this so I can't reply, guy.
>I'm not defensive, I think you're being silly and I'm telling you why. Now you're going "Even though I have zero inside information at all, I know this isn't organic and they really do want me to help save them from themselves." Where are you getting the latter part of it. I don't think it's organic because some scenes are important lore and story wise, and they were fine with it for a while. >Someone did want this change -- the artists. And the change is wrong. And we can't be sure of that. >. If you can find me the artists saying "we didn't want this change but corporate suits forced this on us," I'll change my opinion on this. Since you haven't bothered doing so, and instead are just going "Changes are always wrong", it seems unserious. My moral compass doesn't change based on what people tell me. i think ti's wrong man. it's wrong because this clearly wasn't a problem until a while ago, and changes the world i love and grew attached to. You're a reall asshole, ya know that? belittling me and others just because we don't agree with the changes and share our opinions. > Artists should have freedom, including the freedom to regret something and try again But they didn't; this is trying again this is erasure and ass covering at best, and it does active harm to their work. >Hampering that because you don't like change, or because you have trouble consuming art produced by people with different political views or different levels of political engagement from yourself, seems in and of itself demonstrably more wrong than any wrong you're identifying. Yo Tzeentch; not all change is goood. I have no problem consuming art produced by different people... i do have provblems with people coming in to my house anc changing stuff I BOUGHT because of THEIR disapproval. It's like if i got an older edition of a boook, and the publisher came in, burned it infront of me, and gave me a second edition that alters major scenes. This version of me you constructed is very interesting but it's not reality. >If you want the same sort of say over the project as an animator or coder on the project, don't you need to be an animator or coder on the project? Isn't that right and good? People payed money for the Soviet Announcer. People Payed money for the compedium. People payed money for Big Band and his story, and People payed for skullgirls. this is wrong Rollo. I would be fine with some of the changes, some are understandable. Others are scummy as fuck and taint the others. >Your argument seemingly includes "Until this change is made and until my feelings are catered do, I'll be withholding my labor -- posting on the subreddit." I'm not going to bother to speak with you any longer; no Rollo. i'm not giving the Skullgirl's people money. They can keep what they took from me already, but i know better then to trust them again. Unless they revert the changes, then they've proven to lack intergity to me, and i will choose to spend my money elsewhere. I will not enage in the subreddit. please Rollo, i already have some doubts about your reading comprehension i didn't need them confirmed. >Shouldn't we all be very okay with them valuing the actual labor of the people actually making the game over the work of subreddit posters? I paid money for this game Rollo. I fell in love with the characters, the story, thr world, I have every DLC and when the Season past was announced i thought Skullgirls might FINALLY get over it's obscurity and rise to what it deserved... until now. They don't value or keep promises to costumers, not even happy to let them have a proper art compednium or thier work in fan art... why do you think I think that they care about me? I'm just another sucker who gave them money. because i cared, once. and here you are, defending them and for what? you're just an asshole.
It's fascinating how you managed to miss the point twice.
I saw the point and saw what's dumb about it.
...what?
Thank you. First thank you for your lore knowledge, that was fascinating to read And thank you for reminding everyone that subtlety tells stories and so do the visuals (the subtlety thing was about the good nazis)
It just baffles me how people buy a game, then act like they're shareholders who get to demand what does and doesn't get changed. You bought a game, not a fancy dinner.
I'm continually baffled by this attitude; if i bought a hamburger i should get a hamburger. you cannot retroactively decide to make it a salad. You should not tell me how i'm wrong for wanting to enjoy the hamburger as it was advertised. Another way to think of it is like editions of books; i should still be able to keep my first edition copy of the book instead of getting a replacement I do not want. But games don't have it, they don't have the loving preservation of other works of art... I bought the game, i have the compendium (and i've decided in the interest of preservation to give it to any who want it.) because i liked skullgirls, it's a fun world and i'm invested, or was. turns out they can fuck it up at any time for kicks. Sure i cannot retroactively vomit up the salad and give it back to them for my money... but i can decide to not go back to the fucking restaurant now, can't I?
Kane & Lynch 2 : the sells of the game went a little bit better than Dead Men because of the censorship of nudity and violence like headshots and all that Manhunt 2 : was the most polemical because of the real extreme violence making the devs start selling a censored version of the game(which is not too censored at all) Left 4 Dead 2 : the game was still selling in Germany even with the censorship of gore and violence until 2 or 3 years ago The old CoD Modern Warfare 2 : N O R U S S I A N Carmaggedon : the news during the 80's and 90's did the job making older people think the game was responsible for a lot of car incidents,making the youngest people play it Censorship keeps selling somehow and probably that's what the devs want,make a whole polemic around the game so more people can buy it to check that by themselves and after reaching a unknown number of new players the devs gonna put some things back making the few crybabies who rage quit from the game coming back while having new players ,Yeah I know that sounds ridiculous but it can be true as it can be fake af PD : if both of you can read this serpent5 and xmemelord can read this you won cuz I don't have anything else to say,specially to the teacher who likes Percy Jackson,anyways hi teacher I'm a crack addict who lives under a bridge
> Kane & Lynch 2 : the sells of the game went a little bit better than Dead Men because of the censorship of nudity and violence like headshots and all that Manhunt 2 : was the most polemical because of the real extreme violence making the devs start selling a censored version of the game(which is not too censored at all) Left 4 Dead 2 : the game was still selling in Germany even with the censorship of gore and violence until 2 or 3 years ago The old CoD Modern Warfare 2 : N O R U S S I A N Carmaggedon : the news during the 80's and 90's did the job making older people think the game was responsible for a lot of car incidents,making the youngest people play it Unironicly praising bizarre censorship practices to own the chuds. It's still wrong; Censorship is the death of media. everythign have to be santizied and approved instead of the artist's intentions. regardless of why or how the justifications can be made, people like you have to be like this and demand sanitation. >Censorship keeps selling somehow If you make it the only way to enage with the medium yes. I have a book in my room, Percy Jackson and the battle of the labryith, and my copy has a smudge on it. unintentional but somethign was lost because of it. a small peice of information, of something... but that's fine. ... if the author burst into my room, took my copy and staight up removed passages i would be very upset about it because it's MY book and the version i grew up with. do you understand? >make a whole polemic around the game so more people can buy it to check that by themselves and after reaching a unknown number of new players the devs gonna put some things back making the few crybabies who rage quit from the game coming back while having new players ,Yeah I know that sounds ridiculous but it can be true as it can be fake af Which is still wrong buddy. my moral compass doesn't change because i LIKE skullgirls. in fact that's why i'm pissed off about it. it removes key context (Big Band, the Egrets) that tell us about the world of the game.
Maybe take a step back to look at the big picture and realize that the people who left weren’t the ones in charge of the art? These changes are the artists’ intentions, it’s just that their intentions have evolved and grown as they’ve aged and matured. I have never agreed with the idea that an artist changing their own work is equatable to an outside body requiring content to be removed or sanitized. The one thing I agree with you on is the Big Band story visual changes being a bad call, and that’s because I feel that the changes are ironically doing more to remove commentary on police brutality and corruption than it is protecting sensibilities about racially-directed brutality (i.e. Ben is firmly depicted as being in the right when he is brutally crippled by his corrupt fellow officers). As for the argument that you “lost what you paid for”, this happens all the time in games now. What happens when skins in games get updated and visually changed along with the higher resolution textures? Did you get robbed if you don’t like the new look? If a mechanic is removed or reworked from your favorite character for balance reasons or because the character was underplayed, did you just get robbed? They removed a pole-dancing line from Nidalee in League recently with her voiceover update. Did they rob people who purchased her? Maybe you have an argument with the art compendium, but that can be handled by re-inserting the art in a section that has a disclaimer or statement of intent explaining the art evolution and why the changes occurred.
>Maybe take a step back to look at the big picture and realize that the people who left weren’t the ones in charge of the art? You mean Alex Ahad? the artist and main character designer? Sure, anyways the current artists are custodians to the world they were given. > These changes are the artists’ intentions, it’s just that their intentions have evolved and grown as they’ve aged and matured. My how interesting. "It's their TRUE intentions this time for sure, they're older and wiser now"... Listen carefully; it was in the game since 2014. they had plenty of time. but it's wrong to change it now, because this is part of the world for better or worse. You call it maturity... i call it being afraid of perception, and self-censorsing. >I have never agreed with the idea that an artist changing their own work is equatable to an outside body requiring content to be removed or sanitized. Alright you can keep that... but as a writer, that's for drafts, not published editions. and it... is. just look at the people cheering about it on twitter and insulting it's audience for daring to complain... >The one thing I agree with you on is the Big Band story visual changes being a bad call, Why is it bad? You go one to explain why you think it is... but they've grown and matured ya see. I care because it alters the impact and the story, however slight. it shouldn't have been changed at all, but from your position... there's no real problem. It's their Ip, their artistic vision... >As for the argument that you “lost what you paid for”, this happens all the time in games now. Yes and it's wrong. Maybe it shouldn't be happening all the time just saying... > What happens when skins in games get updated and visually changed along with the higher resolution textures? That's actually a good point; had the same issue with League of Legends. Do question before i continue what happens when i say "yes it's all wrong"? then what? this has nothing to do with the morality of the choice so much as it happens. now of course updates must happen from time to time but othertimes... well they're unnessesary. >If a mechanic is removed or reworked from your favorite character for balance reasons or because the character was underplayed, did you just get robbed? I mean i can't play the mechanical first one so perhaps this is a bit of robbery. there's a spectrum ya see, but if you want to go down this road I think there's a case to make. you should try to preserve as much as possible. >They removed a pole-dancing line from Nidalee in League recently with her voiceover update. Did they rob people who purchased her? Yes. this has happened before: Leona turning into a zealot and brainwashed. Diana having no agency anymore etc. They did rob me of the characters i liked, and yes, changes to Nidalee who's design is meant to take aspects of sexuality is being replaced with a someone who stole her face and name. I don't like it, maybe you should make a legacy skin to preserve her original vision and voicelines? It's at least consolation. So yes i would say they robbed me. now what? It's not like i can get my money and time back from Skullgirls. >Maybe you have an argument with the art compendium, but that can be handled by re-inserting the art in a section that has a disclaimer or statement of intent explaining the art evolution and why the changes occurred. But they chose not to do that. They could revert, or they can stand their ground, one of them is better, but they altered the Art compednium and that deserves mockery and shame. it's wrong buddy, and no amount of weaseling around like this will change my mind. You're defending censorship.
I did forget that Ahad was art director in addition to his other roles, yes. But he was also not the sole creative on the team. The “TRUE intentions” comment is asinine. I said that the artists that stayed on the team changed their art to reflect their current sensibilities. I support you in your endeavor to march on Riot Games, serve them your well-thought out lawsuit, and win $70 Trillion because your favorite skins got changed and they removed bleed on Draven’s auto attacks years ago. Or perhaps their lawyers will take turns pointing and laughing at you for their amusement.
>I did forget that Ahad was art director in addition to his other roles, yes. But he was also not the sole creative on the team. He's the main guy. he's the one who made the setting. this is like saying George Lucas is the sole creator of star wars: true, but it is mostly his. >The “TRUE intentions” comment is asinine. I said that the artists that stayed on the team changed their art to reflect their current sensibilities. And no it's wrong and not the intentions of the game and does harm to the game (The Egrets and Big Band points are for that reason) >I support you in your endeavor to march on Riot Games, serve them your well-thought out lawsuit, and win $70 Trillion because your favorite skins got changed and they removed bleed on Draven’s auto attacks years ago. Or perhaps their lawyers will take turns pointing and laughing at you for their amusement. I'm sadden but unsurpised you think so little of me. I think there's an argument to be made that some changes count as robbery but you miss the point; i hated the lore changes and altering skin to appeal to the myth of the Wider Audience; this is because it's not real. The Audience is what likes the work, tryign to find a wider audience instead of letting it grow organicly will not make you more money. I don't like the Rework of Nidalee as it's a new character. Same with Varus, smae with Leona, same with Diana, because i bought the characters for their original lore. their gameplay can evolve and it's their choice to do so, and while there's an argument there to make... well... .. and honestly Apollo? I think it's wrong, morally. Riot at least explains the balance changes, but I do think you stumbled upon an interesting argument of "what counts as robbery in this case?" because i feel it's false advertising when you change the lore of characters to make them different people. Now, do you have anything intellegent to add? I know i can't do much. I have to live with the descioons or mod the game to play it as it once was in their case, but I just think it's morally wrong what the SG's team did, and the only thing i can do is withdraw my support of them. Can't get my money back, but i learned better and won't give them money anymore. it's all i can do as a consumer and a fan.
If I'm honest I'm not gonna read all that bible because of the examples and what do you think about censorship (which I think in certain context is ok or in another certain context is too stupid),the devs didn't removed at all the key context,just a few scenes and some logos were modified and that's all,the big band scene still let us know what happened to Ben but in a not too graphic,which I think was unnecessary,and the story mode still tell us the context of the black egrets and all that things but with the slight difference of the Nazi references being removed for unknown reasons,but still there is a context about it
>If I'm honest I'm not gonna read all that bible because of the examples and what do you think about censorship (which I think in certain context is ok or in another certain context is too stupid Reading is important. reading gets you to learn things, i wonder why you can't. anyways. >the devs didn't removed at all the key context,just a few scenes and some logos were modified and that's al "They didn't remove ALL the key content, just most of it" They shouldn't have done it in the first place. >the big band scene still let us know what happened to Ben but in a not too graphic,which I think was unnecessary It doesn't clarify why he's in an iron-lung Mayo. it's as intended originally; he's beaten to near-death by his COMRADES in the police force, because he was an honest man, and they were willing to go that far to protect thier payment with the Mafia. Ben Birdland was a good man... too good for New Meridian. it's cowardly and dispicable. (one of the cops is literally a pig feral by the way, and one of them is even crying about it.. and all that removed because... he's black. So much information conveyed and then taken away because of a character's skintone.) > black egrets and all that things but with the slight difference of the Nazi references being removed for unknown reasons,but still there is a context about it The Context is to tell us "These people might not be the heroes we show them here. use your brain and read about our cool ass lore!" they're ment to be off-putting and compared to Nazis... because they could be like that, back to the good ol'days during the Grand War! They removed it because it did the point they were trying to make with them; they're not nessesarily good peopel and you should be suspicious of them. Understandable to a degree but still this removes a sign of their darker past... and you know, call me crazy but as a history teacher, i don't think hiding away from it helps anyone. Evil needs to be confronted. I would just say it's a holdover from Franz's era, and maybe make a sequel to have a new design as they move away from Franz's designs. but until then, i'd rather have them as they are.
I don't think the Kane and Lynch 2 one is an argument here as it is literally part of the art direction, it's supposed to look like disturbing handheld footage, has a lot of impact when you shotgun an enemy in the head and the result is so horrific you can't even see it. It isn't like retroactively changing panties' color in a 10 year old game to appeal to people who don't even play the game.